[TOUGH QUESTIONS] State or individual - which should be master? - Zerowedgie
So this is perhaps a tough question for folks round here :D Well, at least for the statists. This question - which should be master, individual or state, is posed as a dichotomy, as though it's one or the other. Any anarchist worth his salt is firmly on the side of the individual, and so in these quarters a statist stands out like Brennan photographing Hillary giving Obama a golden shower. (Ugh, damn! Strike that thought already‼) Thankfully Zerowedgie firmly observes the third aspect of the trinity in this realm - the middle ground: STATE MIDDLE INDIVIDUAL ∙ Plato Alexander Aristotle Republic “The Great” ∙ Maoists Confucian Taoists In the face of this thought, that which arose for me personally a few years ago as "an alternative noun/label for anarchy" namely "direct democracy" appears now to be the middle ground - that balance between: ∙ the very real potential chaos of anarchy, and ∙ the very real potential crystalline death of most of that which makes life worth living, in the extreme conformity and death of the individual, when the state is taken to its limit. Notwithstanding the (correct as it is) appearance of direct democracy as a form of individualism, direct democracy also be a recognition of both the tribal nature of individuals and the consequent inherent need for us to communicate in respect of our apparent disagreements and possibly find resolutions, thus: ∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism Perhaps it might be useful to consider the 'problems' at the extreme: - Can we say that the particular absolute authority and power which is inherent and existent within the individual, ought or must NOT EVER be (involuntarily or voluntarily for that matter) surrendered to the authority and power of the family, tribe or "state" etc? - Can we say that the particular absolute authority and power which is inherent and existent within the individual, ought or must ALWAYS be (involuntarily or voluntarily for that matter) surrendered to the authority and power of the family, tribe or "state" etc? Dichotomies eh? Perhaps the middle ground, the third principle forming the reality of this particular trinity, could be useful after all? State Or Individual? https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-22/state-or-individual
Top posting FTW YeaH BaBy, yEAh! (Please don't top post.) Who holds back from speaking the truth about the system subjugating us with debt and fear, for the possibility of some small temporary benefit, or some longer, yet still pathetically materialistic "benefit"? Who can even consider whether or not they are doing this themselves? (Trigger warning, the following contains some Trump bashing, though in context of the system of which he is a product (as are, one could dare say, most of us), of he and Hillary a certain case could perchance be made that he was the least worst option of the dichotomy of two which dichotomy is consistently presented to us by "Democracy".) We Prefer Our Sociopaths Well Dressed and Spoken https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-22/we-prefer-our-sociopaths-well-dres... …Absent the passage of memory dulling time, how does one forget or actively deny a persistent reality that insists on making its presence known? How do we ignore an ugly truth, a clear and present existence that doesn’t fade away into the ether? Simple! We call it something else, thereby putting lipstick on a pig. …From a socioeconomic point of view no one wishes to address, let along even admit, the country is run by embedded (like tics) powerful moneyed special interests that do not have our best interests at heart. Or more accurately, whose only interest in us is their desire for us to remain productive and under control in exactly the same way plantation owners of the past viewed their slaves. Edmund Burke is purported to have said “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” The art of subjugation (let’s call it seduction to make it easier to swallow) is to convince the object of our attention not to resist our advances. This is most effectively done by convincing the resident population they are homogeneous, yet alone and powerless. As in you can’t fight city hall. Or better yet, to convince us there’s something in it for us (the mafia call it getting a taste) if we’d just go along to get along. The field slaves would rather be promoted to kitchen duty while the kitchen slaves would prefer an upgrade to domestic help or even the butler or handmaid. Sun Tzu wrote “Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.” The art of propaganda, in America concocted, distorted and repeated as mainstream media nonsense, is to confirm prior beliefs while constructing new or follow on narratives. Ultimately it all comes down to a simple and unassailable fact, at least if viewed logically and dispassionately. In an environment ruled by sociopaths, eventually one either becomes one or is controlled by one. Stress a society to the point where resources are spread too thin and conditions become increasingly harsh and the subdued and suppressed begin to turn on one another. This is the ultimate utility, at least for the sociopaths and their enabling minions, of a two party political system. Pick a side, any side, just as long as you pick. Freedom of choice and all that! It’s all right there in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. At least that’s what we have been taught to believe. In reality, long ago the sociopath controllers realized we must consent to our cognitive control if we are to be our most productive. Regardless of our (deftly stage managed) point of view, either you’re with us or you’re against us. Everything is presented as black and white in a decidedly grayish world. And it really doesn’t matter if you choose black or white, just as long as you are given, and accept, the illusion of choice. Of course, a little bit of wiggle room is offered to allow us to think it’s our decision to swallow. Just as long as we stay safely within the confines of the cattle chute, big brother will not come knocking on our front door. That pleasure is reserved for malcontents, radicals and non conformists. You’re not one of those, are you? If this view appears excessively harsh, unfair or simply wrong, may I gently suggest we have acclimated well to our conditioning. This is not to say we are treated as poorly or as harshly as slaves were two hundred years ago. At least not yet. Our improved standard of living in many ways goes a long way towards enabling our denial of the socioeconomic reality unfolding before us. Our capacity for denial is only exceeded by our capacity to endure hardship. Come to think of it, in practice both capacities are one and the same. Just because we can, and do, engage in mindless consumption of material, media and mind numbing propaganda doesn’t mean we are free in any significant sense of the word. Then again, after many generations of cumulative socioeconomic conditioning, the vast majority of “We the People” prefer -not- to be free in any literal or figurative sense. The prevailing sense of entitlement has been deliberately conditioned into the unwashed masses. Thankfully the elite were born into it. Once we become dependent upon the system for our entitlements, we will support any system that feeds us our keep. Emphasis on ANY. In a nut shell, we want our cake and eat too. And admittedly, for several decades it appeared we actually could. The illusion of endless upward mobility and material goods, as well as the money to purchase them, was indelibly etched into the American psyche as proof of our manifest destiny and imperial right. But the party is now over, at least for the middle class, and the piper is demanding his due. So when the bottomless wine bottle begins to empty, what does the ruling class do? Easy, they ramp up the propaganda meme stream while pursuing an escalating divide and conquer domestic suppression campaign, all while keeping the façade minimally maintained. One must keep up appearances after all. Dress up the manikin to appear real while repeatedly telling us it is real, as well as our only choice, and soon enough we will accept what we are told as truth. …Regardless of what we believe it might have been several hundred years ago, for the last fifty years our education system is little more than a finely tuned propaganda and conditioning machine stamping out proper thinking corporate widgets. Ever wonder why our children must be force fed at least six years of history, math and social studies, yet they are never introduced to real world tasks such as balancing a checkbook, preparing a budget, navigating legal documents, negotiating a deal or even offered a passing introduction to critical thinking? Our job is to do and die, not to question why. …Trump is the polar opposite of the smooth and polished Obama and people don’t like their leaders raw and vulgar. It tends to ruin the illusion of a beneficent leader devoted to his or her sworn duty to the people. …A confidence game depends upon artificially induced confidence to elicit consent from the conned. And the consent is almost always gained by convincing the conned they will receive an unearned gain in exchange for their consent. In other words, the con plays off the conned person’s greed and vice. Other more complicated cons (such as those played by the sociopath powers that be) may introduce fear and anger into the equation. Regardless of the leverage applied, the conned plays an integral part in the con. While we helpfully label the conned as an ego soothing victim of a crime, the word ‘victim’ begs the question of what exactly is a victim if the victim played into, and along with, the overall con. Maybe we should say we were seduced. You know, change the name to make it more palatable. It sounds so much better thinking we were compelled beyond our control by an irresistible force to give our consent. There is an implicit and (usually) unspoken agreement between those running the con and those taken by the con which promises the conned will be rewarded for his, her or their participation. And the word rewarded doesn’t necessarily mean receiving a gain. The reward could actually mitigate or remove an already expected or threatened loss, real or imaginary. If we were to give those last few sentences some deeper thought, the reader might begin to understand how governments, multinational corporations and even so-called nonprofit organizations, controlled by a few key sociopaths, manipulate our artificially inflated fears along with our dreams (aka the carrot and the stick) to induce consent, or at least no resistance, to their destructive (and profitable) socioeconomic policies. Well, more accurately, destructive to the many and rewarding to the few. I don’t see Boeing, Raytheon or McDonnell Douglas getting too worked up when Trump fires off another round of cruise missiles at some second, soon to be third, world country. And neither do the majority who work for those companies. It’s not nice to bite the hand that feeds you. Dependency has a way of enabling our denial. Above all else, America is in the business of destruction and construction, though not necessarily in that order. Do I really need to make a list of all the different ways the wealthy and powerful benefit while the many pay the bills and do the dying? On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 12:03:18PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
So this is perhaps a tough question for folks round here :D
Well, at least for the statists.
This question - which should be master, individual or state, is posed as a dichotomy, as though it's one or the other.
Any anarchist worth his salt is firmly on the side of the individual, and so in these quarters a statist stands out like Brennan photographing Hillary giving Obama a golden shower. (Ugh, damn! Strike that thought already‼)
Thankfully Zerowedgie firmly observes the third aspect of the trinity in this realm - the middle ground:
STATE MIDDLE INDIVIDUAL
∙ Plato Alexander Aristotle Republic “The Great”
∙ Maoists Confucian Taoists
In the face of this thought, that which arose for me personally a few years ago as "an alternative noun/label for anarchy" namely "direct democracy" appears now to be the middle ground - that balance between:
∙ the very real potential chaos of anarchy, and
∙ the very real potential crystalline death of most of that which makes life worth living, in the extreme conformity and death of the individual, when the state is taken to its limit.
Notwithstanding the (correct as it is) appearance of direct democracy as a form of individualism, direct democracy also be a recognition of both the tribal nature of individuals and the consequent inherent need for us to communicate in respect of our apparent disagreements and possibly find resolutions, thus:
∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism
Perhaps it might be useful to consider the 'problems' at the extreme:
- Can we say that the particular absolute authority and power which is inherent and existent within the individual, ought or must NOT EVER be (involuntarily or voluntarily for that matter) surrendered to the authority and power of the family, tribe or "state" etc?
- Can we say that the particular absolute authority and power which is inherent and existent within the individual, ought or must ALWAYS be (involuntarily or voluntarily for that matter) surrendered to the authority and power of the family, tribe or "state" etc?
Dichotomies eh?
Perhaps the middle ground, the third principle forming the reality of this particular trinity, could be useful after all?
State Or Individual? https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-22/state-or-individual
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:03:18 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism
so what is 'direct democracy'? A bunch of statists who can 'directly vote' on how to abuse their betters? unless you give some actual specification for 'direct democracy' (which is just another for of statism anyway) you are not saying much, if anything.
Even in ancient Athens' direct democracy there were limits on popular action (e.g., 1 year maximum of expulsion and no asset seizure of those expelled). On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 1:38 PM juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:03:18 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism
so what is 'direct democracy'? A bunch of statists who can 'directly vote' on how to abuse their betters?
unless you give some actual specification for 'direct democracy' (which is just another for of statism anyway) you are not saying much, if anything.
On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 05:42:49PM -0300, Juan wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:03:18 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism
so what is 'direct democracy'? A bunch of statists who can 'directly vote' on how to abuse their betters?
Unless everyone are classed as statists (and most are well entrained in such belief/thinking), direct democracy is literally everyone voting, on every law, every clause separately if they wish. Would most vote for or against parking fines, petty speeding fines? Would most vote for or against taxes? Oligarchs gaming democracy is about illusion of choice - dichotomies of "this party or that party" and now you have "chosen" and have "freedom". Direct democracy is where somehow everyone gets to vote on literally everything, throwing out any and every law not wanted, and also having freedom over when such votes are done - if "leaders" are able to constrain voting by saying something like "you voted this year on the options to reduce or increase taxation by 5%, and you chose to decrease taxation by 5%, and so now you can't vote again for 10 more years" that of course is nothing like direct democracy. Thought folks round here were clear on the concept.
unless you give some actual specification for 'direct democracy'
fair enough
(which is just another for of statism anyway)
well there you're presupposing it as a negative thing is there no possible middle ground between statism and anarchy, where people can reasonably make collective "agreements" and say the individual conscientious objector is still respected, and the oligarchs don't game/control the system into a state of tyranny
you are not saying much, if anything.
Sweden is quite a poor example - some sort of federated "Democracy" as far as I can tell - "direct" on small irrelevancies like whether flip flops must or must not be worn around the public pool (but I have not research the Swiss system in any depth...)
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:48:27 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
Direct democracy is where somehow everyone gets to vote on literally everything, throwing out any and every law not wanted, and also having freedom over when such votes are done - if "leaders" are able to constrain voting by saying something like "you voted this year on the options to reduce or increase taxation by 5%, and you chose to decrease taxation by 5%, and so now you can't vote again for 10 more years" that of course is nothing like direct democracy.
Thought folks round here were clear on the concept.
Well I think there are a few unclear details, but yeah the system may be better than 'repersentative' democracy, either because it will limit state power somewhat, or will cause more chaos...
(which is just another for of statism anyway)
well there you're presupposing it as a negative thing
statism? I'm not presupposing it is a negative thing. I'm looking at the facts.
is there no possible middle ground between statism and anarchy, where people can reasonably make collective "agreements" and say the individual conscientious objector is still respected,
Well, if you don't force dissenters into those agreements then yes you have something that is not ordinary statism and gets closer to anarchy. So let's say some people vote to set taxes to some %, BUT people who don't vote have their taxes set to 0%. Or some people vote to close the borders but people who don't vote can go through the borders freely etc. But I'm not sure that's what direct democracy means.
and the oligarchs don't game/control the system into a state of tyranny
you are not saying much, if anything.
Sweden is quite a poor example - some sort of federated "Democracy" as far as I can tell - "direct" on small irrelevancies like whether flip flops must or must not be worn around the public pool (but I have not research the Swiss system in any depth...)
actually the swiss do vote on some interesting stuff. I think we've covered it before. just one example https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonhartley/2014/11/30/swiss-voters-reject-incre... "78% voted against expanding central bank gold reserves" - i.e. voted even against a partial gold standard....
On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:55:23PM -0300, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:48:27 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
Direct democracy is where somehow everyone gets to vote on literally everything, throwing out any and every law not wanted, and also having freedom over when such votes are done - if "leaders" are able to constrain voting by saying something like "you voted this year on the options to reduce or increase taxation by 5%, and you chose to decrease taxation by 5%, and so now you can't vote again for 10 more years" that of course is nothing like direct democracy.
Thought folks round here were clear on the concept.
Well I think there are a few unclear details, but yeah the system may be better than 'repersentative' democracy, either because it will limit state power somewhat, or will cause more chaos...
(which is just another for of statism anyway)
well there you're presupposing it as a negative thing
statism? I'm not presupposing it is a negative thing. I'm looking at the facts.
is there no possible middle ground between statism and anarchy, where people can reasonably make collective "agreements" and say the individual conscientious objector is still respected,
Well, if you don't force dissenters into those agreements then yes you have something that is not ordinary statism and gets closer to anarchy.
So let's say some people vote to set taxes to some %, BUT people who don't vote have their taxes set to 0%. Or some people vote to close the borders but people who don't vote can go through the borders freely etc.
But I'm not sure that's what direct democracy means.
and the oligarchs don't game/control the system into a state of tyranny
you are not saying much, if anything.
Sweden is quite a poor example - some sort of federated "Democracy" as far as I can tell - "direct" on small irrelevancies like whether flip flops must or must not be worn around the public pool (but I have not research the Swiss system in any depth...)
actually the swiss do vote on some interesting stuff. I think we've covered it before.
just one example
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonhartley/2014/11/30/swiss-voters-reject-incre...
"78% voted against expanding central bank gold reserves" - i.e. voted even against a partial gold standard....
Interesting. They may soon come to regret that decision/ vote.
On 07/23/2018 04:42 PM, juan wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:03:18 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism
so what is 'direct democracy'? A bunch of statists who can 'directly vote' on how to abuse their betters?
unless you give some actual specification for 'direct democracy' (which is just another for of statism anyway) you are not saying much, if anything.
As I understand it, direct democracy means people banding together to exercise political power "by hand", using whatever kind of force necessary to get the results they want. That makes direct democracy very nearly a synonym for anarchy, especially as the term usually describes dissident movements pushing back against one or another kind of State authority. Like anarchy, direct democracy does not define or describe a form of government in the usual sense of the term. Tactical options for direct democracy include propaganda (publications, protest rallies, etc.); strikes and boycotts; occupations and expropriations; sabotage and physical intimidation; or even armed conflict. Because they fill roles more usually taken by the State, both local charities and 'frontier justice' would also fall under the direct democracy banner. So would local governance by a consensus process, as seen in some tribal councils, and oddly enough, the administrative process of traditional branches of the Religious Society of Friends, a.k.a. Quakers. My limited information suggests that the Zapatista controlled bit of Mexico qualifies as a "direct democracy" because meetings modeled on a traditional tribal council process where all may be heard, and decisions are made by consensus, directs the actions of their military/police force. In this instance, one could consider direct democracy a form of government now in place - and to date, a highly successful example. Neither petrochemicals nor narcotics cartels have managed to steal their land. :o)
On July 23, 2018 3:42:49 PM CDT, juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:03:18 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism
so what is 'direct democracy'? A bunch of statists who can 'directly vote' on how to abuse their betters?
unless you give some actual specification for 'direct democracy'
In sci-fi by Alistair Reynolds there is a certain faction called the Demarchists (or demarchy, but doesn't have the same connotation as the English word) - they all get a neural implant at birth that automatically polls them on every conceivable issue in their particular community, eventually it sort of faids to a low background noise in their head.... And they all vote, on everything. I think it would drive you fucking insane but its a type of (speculative) "direct democracy".
(which is just another for of statism anyway) you are not saying much, if anything.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:06:01 -0500 John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
On July 23, 2018 3:42:49 PM CDT, juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:03:18 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism
so what is 'direct democracy'? A bunch of statists who can 'directly vote' on how to abuse their betters?
unless you give some actual specification for 'direct democracy'
In sci-fi by Alistair Reynolds there is a certain faction called the Demarchists (or demarchy, but doesn't have the same connotation as the English word) - they all get a neural implant at birth that automatically polls them on every conceivable issue in their particular community, eventually it sort of faids to a low background noise in their head.... And they all vote, on everything. I think it would drive you fucking insane but its a type of (speculative) "direct democracy".
And the author presents it as good, bad, or he remains impartial to it? Anyway, that sort of mechanism seems like a wet dream for people interested in turning (other) people into the most 'efficient' cogs for 'society'.
(which is just another for of statism anyway) you are not saying much, if anything.
On July 25, 2018 12:56:17 AM CDT, juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:06:01 -0500 John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
On July 23, 2018 3:42:49 PM CDT, juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:03:18 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
∙ the state direct democracy anarchy/ism
so what is 'direct democracy'? A bunch of statists who can
'directly
vote' on how to abuse their betters?
unless you give some actual specification for 'direct democracy'
In sci-fi by Alistair Reynolds there is a certain faction called the Demarchists (or demarchy, but doesn't have the same connotation as the English word) - they all get a neural implant at birth that automatically polls them on every conceivable issue in their particular community, eventually it sort of faids to a low background noise in their head.... And they all vote, on everything. I think it would drive you fucking insane but its a type of (speculative) "direct democracy".
And the author presents it as good, bad, or he remains impartial to it?
Impartial - just another fucked up form of far flung post humanity. I think the biggest demarchist factions are mostly destroyed through the course of the stories (I'm not sure - I haven't read them all ;)
Anyway, that sort of mechanism seems like a wet dream for people interested in turning (other) people into the most 'efficient' cogs for 'society'.
Yeah it does leave a bit of a bad taste in your mouth. Still, an interesting thought experiment.
(which is just another for of statism anyway) you are not saying
much,
if anything.
participants (5)
-
John Newman
-
juan
-
Steve Kinney
-
Steven Schear
-
Zenaan Harkness