Re: [WAR] Duterte backs down "war on drugs" as "UN Special Rapporteur" Agnes Callamard surprise visits
Probably shoulda CCed the list. Our middle "Western" ground of "The War on Drugs" is an absolute, utter failure, if your intention is to reduce drug use and remove the incentives from the drug market. If your intention is to maximise profits, and create as many problems in society as possible so that people stay focused on shit, and don't have time nor energy to unite behind real problems, like almost completely undemocractic governments, extensive corporate violations of our humans rights, and the private banks, then The War on Drugs is the greatest invention since sliced bread.
From this narrow perspective, almost ANYthing is better than the War On Drugs - whether the extreme of Duterte, or the liberal "sanity" as some view it of treating adults as adults, rather than treating all of society as children, and allowing individual humans to do as they choose, with regards to their own bodies (more below).
Of course I do not condone extra judicial killing but as I mentioned below, the illegality of something rarely stopped those in power from abusing their ability to do illegal things. I don't expect nuance from TLA shills, but I'm greatful for the nuance and insight from others on the list. Regards, Zenaan ----- Forwarded message from 'Zenaan Harkness' <zen@freedbms.net> ----- From: 'Zenaan Harkness' <zen@freedbms.net> To: Jim <jim.sovereign@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 20:32:25 +1000 Subject: Re: [WAR] Duterte backs down "war on drugs" as "UN Special Rapporteur" Agnes Callamard surprise visits On Sat, May 06, 2017 at 06:57:12PM +1000, Jim wrote:
Zen,
Do you consider Duterte to be a good and honourable president because I view him as an egotistical, self-righteous mass murderer with warped moral values. He ignores his own country's constitution and legal due process because it interferes with his murderous crusade against drug addicts and dealers.
We don't know what he has faced, nor why he has made the decisions/ followed the pathway he has chosen. It's very easy from our Western Ivory Castles ("main stream media and "democracy is king" programming), to think that others are simply wrong, immoral or even evil. Perhaps Duterte is an evil man. But I don't know whether he is or not. I won't say he is evil at this point. Although I am not a drug taker except for a cider at Christmas time, I believe that any "war on drugs" is merely a pretext for state control of what should be individual decisions - my body is mine, and it is my right to choose what I put in it. So, on principle, I think any "war on drugs" is against human rights. But I would balance that with some serious education too... Duterte? I hope he writes a book before he dies, to tell his side of his story, as I am very interested in it. If he is "evil like we imagine Adolf Hitler" was evil, then any book would be nothing but a whitewash. But we in the West very much think (and communicate) in dichotomies - black and white, good vs evil. What I do wonder is why Duterte has such stratospheric popularity in his own country. If he has handled "the drug problem", perhaps this has something to do with it. I think liberalisation/ individual personal autonomy is the preferred route to "solving the drug problem", and that's about as much as I can say, as I do not know any significant facts around Duterte except for the headlines. Fundamentally, any extra-judicial killing process is highly problematic - but that never stopped the Rothschilds or Hillary Clinton now did it? Also, glorifying extra-judicial killing would be highly problematic - we should certainly not do that. But Duterte? I think there's a lot more to the story that we get to hear. Perhaps. Hopefully one day we learn more of his story.
I hope Duterte is eventually prosecuted and imprisoned for his appalling crimes and human rights violations. Drug dealers deserve to be punished with long prison sentences instead of summary executions, and how can he justify murdering drug addicts who need help with their addiction and associated mental health issues?
The Western approach, at least as we see it in Australia, is really messed up - just enough punishment to cause untold follow-on crime, mostly theft to fund addiction, with punishments which, evidently, do not stop people from becoming addicts, or from using at parties and dying from overdoses (so many teenage lives cut short), or clogging the courts, consuming incredible amounts of public resources ... the list of problems does not end. So, our "war on drugs" in Australia is absolutely, damned appalling! Frankly, I am utterly convicted of the opinion that the 'war on drugs' fuels the black market, maximises profits, disenchants the youth (late teens - we don't treat them like adults capable of making their own decisions, and neither do we treat adults like adults) and keeps the bulk of society focused on "the drug problem" without realising that most of that problem is created by the very rules of the game ... arbitrary rules which try to treat adults like children, and thus create a society of many fucked up humans. WE are doing something wrong, here in Australia. By keeping us all focused on problems which are totally artificial, which don't have the energy or collective resources to unify behind REAL problems, like road tolls, our right to travel, and the banks. Get rid of the war on drugs, make all drugs purchasable through prescription for almost cost price from pharmacies, and addicts then have absolutely no need to go theiving, cars or houses or corner stores. But the problem is wanted, so The War On Drugs is maintained.
I wonder if Duterte would have any member of his family killed if they were drug addicts or drug dealers? I doubt it.
We don't know Jim, we don't know. We don't know Duterte, and we don't know the facts of his life - only the headlines. Regards, Zen
-----Original Message----- From: Zenaan Harkness [mailto:zen@freedbms.net] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2017 12:34 PM To: CypherPunks Subject: [WAR] Duterte backs down "war on drugs" as "UN Special Rapporteur" Agnes Callamard surprise visits
Well, actually, we're getting to know Duterte, and we know he doesn't back down against something he believes in. In fact, he's the kind of guy who, when ambushed by a fancy French word like "rapporteur", doubles down instead.
And despite what we might believe about his policies, he enjoys stratospheric popularity numbers the likes of which even Putin could be envious of if Putin were the envious type, which of course he's not :)
Now try saying this fancy French word "rapporteur" in a truly French accent and tell me you don't want to smack yourself in the face for sounding so pompous . . that word alone inspires me to high-five Duterte for his doubling down.
** Duterte to drug dealers: ‘I will kill you. I will really kill you’ http://theduran.com/duterte-to-drug-dealers-i-will-kill-you-i-will-really-ki... ------------------------------------------------------------ duterte fist
The remarks came as a UN envoy known for her opposition to Duterte's policies paid a surprise visit to the country.
----- End forwarded message -----
On May 6, 2017, at 6:39 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
Probably shoulda CCed the list.
Our middle "Western" ground of "The War on Drugs" is an absolute, utter failure, if your intention is to reduce drug use and remove the incentives from the drug market.
If your intention is to maximise profits, and create as many problems in society as possible so that people stay focused on shit, and don't have time nor energy to unite behind real problems, like almost completely undemocractic governments, extensive corporate violations of our humans rights, and the private banks, then The War on Drugs is the greatest invention since sliced bread.
From this narrow perspective, almost ANYthing is better than the War On Drugs - whether the extreme of Duterte, or the liberal "sanity" as some view it of treating adults as adults, rather than treating all of society as children, and allowing individual humans to do as they choose, with regards to their own bodies (more below).
Wrong, WRONG you goddamn hypocrite. The extreme of Duterte is NOT better than the "war on drugs", it's merely the logical extension of the entire absurdity, taken to a fucking horrific level. Obviously you understand drugs prohibition is an absurd outrage on human freedom and the cause of all the violence associated with "trafficking", as well as nearly all the problems associated with addiction, and everything that this spills down into. Why are you such an unabashed apologist for authoritarians?
Of course I do not condone extra judicial killing but as I mentioned below, the illegality of something rarely stopped those in power from abusing their ability to do illegal things.
I don't expect nuance from TLA shills, but I'm greatful for the nuance and insight from others on the list.
Regards, Zenaan ----- Forwarded message from 'Zenaan Harkness' <zen@freedbms.net> ----- From: 'Zenaan Harkness' <zen@freedbms.net> To: Jim <jim.sovereign@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 20:32:25 +1000 Subject: Re: [WAR] Duterte backs down "war on drugs" as "UN Special Rapporteur" Agnes Callamard surprise visits
On Sat, May 06, 2017 at 06:57:12PM +1000, Jim wrote: Zen,
Do you consider Duterte to be a good and honourable president because I view him as an egotistical, self-righteous mass murderer with warped moral values. He ignores his own country's constitution and legal due process because it interferes with his murderous crusade against drug addicts and dealers.
We don't know what he has faced, nor why he has made the decisions/ followed the pathway he has chosen.
It's very easy from our Western Ivory Castles ("main stream media and "democracy is king" programming), to think that others are simply wrong, immoral or even evil.
Perhaps Duterte is an evil man.
But I don't know whether he is or not. I won't say he is evil at this point.
Although I am not a drug taker except for a cider at Christmas time, I believe that any "war on drugs" is merely a pretext for state control of what should be individual decisions - my body is mine, and it is my right to choose what I put in it.
So, on principle, I think any "war on drugs" is against human rights. But I would balance that with some serious education too...
Duterte? I hope he writes a book before he dies, to tell his side of his story, as I am very interested in it. If he is "evil like we imagine Adolf Hitler" was evil, then any book would be nothing but a whitewash. But we in the West very much think (and communicate) in dichotomies - black and white, good vs evil.
What I do wonder is why Duterte has such stratospheric popularity in his own country.
If he has handled "the drug problem", perhaps this has something to do with it. I think liberalisation/ individual personal autonomy is the preferred route to "solving the drug problem", and that's about as much as I can say, as I do not know any significant facts around Duterte except for the headlines.
Fundamentally, any extra-judicial killing process is highly problematic - but that never stopped the Rothschilds or Hillary Clinton now did it?
Also, glorifying extra-judicial killing would be highly problematic - we should certainly not do that.
But Duterte? I think there's a lot more to the story that we get to hear. Perhaps. Hopefully one day we learn more of his story.
I hope Duterte is eventually prosecuted and imprisoned for his appalling crimes and human rights violations. Drug dealers deserve to be punished with long prison sentences instead of summary executions, and how can he justify murdering drug addicts who need help with their addiction and associated mental health issues?
The Western approach, at least as we see it in Australia, is really messed up - just enough punishment to cause untold follow-on crime, mostly theft to fund addiction, with punishments which, evidently, do not stop people from becoming addicts, or from using at parties and dying from overdoses (so many teenage lives cut short), or clogging the courts, consuming incredible amounts of public resources ... the list of problems does not end.
So, our "war on drugs" in Australia is absolutely, damned appalling!
Frankly, I am utterly convicted of the opinion that the 'war on drugs' fuels the black market, maximises profits, disenchants the youth (late teens - we don't treat them like adults capable of making their own decisions, and neither do we treat adults like adults) and keeps the bulk of society focused on "the drug problem" without realising that most of that problem is created by the very rules of the game ... arbitrary rules which try to treat adults like children, and thus create a society of many fucked up humans.
WE are doing something wrong, here in Australia.
By keeping us all focused on problems which are totally artificial, which don't have the energy or collective resources to unify behind REAL problems, like road tolls, our right to travel, and the banks.
Get rid of the war on drugs, make all drugs purchasable through prescription for almost cost price from pharmacies, and addicts then have absolutely no need to go theiving, cars or houses or corner stores. But the problem is wanted, so The War On Drugs is maintained.
I wonder if Duterte would have any member of his family killed if they were drug addicts or drug dealers? I doubt it.
We don't know Jim, we don't know. We don't know Duterte, and we don't know the facts of his life - only the headlines.
Regards, Zen
-----Original Message----- From: Zenaan Harkness [mailto:zen@freedbms.net] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2017 12:34 PM To: CypherPunks Subject: [WAR] Duterte backs down "war on drugs" as "UN Special Rapporteur" Agnes Callamard surprise visits
Well, actually, we're getting to know Duterte, and we know he doesn't back down against something he believes in. In fact, he's the kind of guy who, when ambushed by a fancy French word like "rapporteur", doubles down instead.
And despite what we might believe about his policies, he enjoys stratospheric popularity numbers the likes of which even Putin could be envious of if Putin were the envious type, which of course he's not :)
Now try saying this fancy French word "rapporteur" in a truly French accent and tell me you don't want to smack yourself in the face for sounding so pompous . . that word alone inspires me to high-five Duterte for his doubling down.
** Duterte to drug dealers: ‘I will kill you. I will really kill you’ http://theduran.com/duterte-to-drug-dealers-i-will-kill-you-i-will-really-ki... ------------------------------------------------------------ duterte fist
The remarks came as a UN envoy known for her opposition to Duterte's policies paid a surprise visit to the country.
----- End forwarded message -----
On 05/06/2017 03:26 AM, John Newman wrote:
On May 6, 2017, at 6:39 AM, [some asshole] wrote:
Probably shoulda CCed the list.
Our middle "Western" ground of "The War on Drugs" is an absolute, utter failure, if your intention is to reduce drug use and remove the incentives from the drug market.
If your intention is to maximise profits, and create as many problems in society as possible so that people stay focused on shit, and don't have time nor energy to unite behind real problems, like almost completely undemocractic governments, extensive corporate violations of our humans rights, and the private banks, then The War on Drugs is the greatest invention since sliced bread.
From this narrow perspective, almost ANYthing is better than the War On Drugs - whether the extreme of Duterte, or the liberal "sanity" as some view it of treating adults as adults, rather than treating all of society as children, and allowing individual humans to do as they choose, with regards to their own bodies (more below).
Wrong, WRONG you goddamn hypocrite. The extreme of Duterte is NOT better than the "war on drugs", it's merely the logical extension of the entire absurdity, taken to a fucking horrific level.
Obviously.
Obviously you understand drugs prohibition is an absurd outrage on human freedom and the cause of all the violence associated with "trafficking", as well as nearly all the problems associated with addiction, and everything that this spills down into. Why are you such an unabashed apologist for authoritarians?
In a word, lulz :) <SNIP]
On 05/06/2017 10:06 PM, Mirimir wrote:
On 05/06/2017 03:26 AM, John Newman wrote:
On May 6, 2017, at 6:39 AM, [some asshole] wrote:
Probably shoulda CCed the list.
Our middle "Western" ground of "The War on Drugs" is an absolute, utter failure, if your intention is to reduce drug use and remove the incentives from the drug market.
If your intention is to maximise profits, and create as many problems in society as possible so that people stay focused on shit, and don't have time nor energy to unite behind real problems, like almost completely undemocractic governments, extensive corporate violations of our humans rights, and the private banks, then The War on Drugs is the greatest invention since sliced bread.
From this narrow perspective, almost ANYthing is better than the War On Drugs - whether the extreme of Duterte, or the liberal "sanity" as some view it of treating adults as adults, rather than treating all of society as children, and allowing individual humans to do as they choose, with regards to their own bodies (more below).
Wrong, WRONG you goddamn hypocrite. The extreme of Duterte is NOT better than the "war on drugs", it's merely the logical extension of the entire absurdity, taken to a fucking horrific level.
Obviously.
Obviously you understand drugs prohibition is an absurd outrage on human freedom and the cause of all the violence associated with "trafficking", as well as nearly all the problems associated with addiction, and everything that this spills down into. Why are you such an unabashed apologist for authoritarians?
In a word, lulz :)
<SNIP]
Duterte is a disgrace. I would have loved to have visited the home of my anscestors but now while that homicidal tyrant and his followers are still in power.
participants (4)
-
'Zenaan Harkness' -
John Newman -
Marina Brown -
Mirimir