Cryptocurrency: Seagate line of crypto-specific drives, Proof Of Storage Space
Jim noted:
about the disk-usage characteristics of this new kind of storage-crypto to know what the cost trade-offs are. Can most of the 'disk' reads/writes be cached? That would certainly minimize SD card usage, and thus limit the wearout mechanisms.
Some of these proofs of space are essentially precomputed rainbow tables. The computed outputs can be sorted and binned across a lookup hashtree divided across the entire storage extent. There are typical tradeoffs in sizing those indexes which could be cached. But eventually you will exceed the cache and have to start doing real reads to see if you have the answer to the challenge. https://www.chia.net/ Most new cryptos these days are corrupt founders-get-rich scams upon the fairness they claim in their advertising. Some people are saying Bram's Chia is also a massive premine. Satoshi did not premine anything, the Genesis was cut and the network instance announced and launched for all interested parties to freely mine thereafter. Plenty of profit available to earlies, no premine or investment rounds needed to create a coin.
https://www.techradar.com/news/exclusive-seagate-exploring-possible-new-line...
The only thing they can do to increase capacity for this incompressible cryptorandom data beyond current commercial offerings is to sell a line offering higher error rates, lower data rates, and lower drive lifespan, while keeping seek times in scale. Such drives might be priced less per byte, but they will never be priced any less per *reliable* byte. If you wanted to get in the biz, you could imagine resurrecting larger diameters, such as these horribly unreliable drives... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Bigfoot combined with 100+ platter horizontal spindles riding on multiple oil bearings, then airbag chassis suspension so you could stack gangs of them on concrete floors like old IBM units without crashing heads from harmonics, people, trains, bearing destruction in adjacent units, etc. Consider also if tape is cheaper than disk, layering tiers of RAM / SSD / disk indexing, into massive perhaps even parallelized tape extents... all while trying to beat the race condition of your competitors on the network. But you'd have to cut me in on the profits for the ideas. bitcoin-btc:1JjWdsFAWB4UDZXFMpHQ5sqNMSvWah8S9q
https://www.techradar.com/news/exclusive-seagate-exploring-possible-new-line...
How about 2-4 TBs of RAM? Removes the wear-and-tear issue of SSDs.
Then estimate if that would be enough to cache the indexes to the colossal Exabytes that will be deployed, the addressibilty limits of modern 64 bit CPUs, etc. Wanna crash the price like Elon and China did... dare to tell them all the carbon, watts, nonrenewables, rares, and toxins the storage hardware will eat up, lol :) Then do the math and find out it's still much less than the entire global Fiat system summed on an all-in net basis, including the murderous wars it forces its users to power.
Storage-oriented blockchains have different economic bounds because you can use the ones providing file storage to mine the ones requiring having it. Everything's underpriced right now. The opportunity is to do things like rent sia skynet webhosting (or maybe filecoin? haven't tried it yet =/) and heavily undercut e.g. amazon s3 storage, with a little marketing, UI, and user support.
The inefficiencies involved in that arbitrage of sorts could cause that type of miner to lose the race compared to an in-house op. Nor do profitable arbitrage conditions usually last long in free markets... and retool, chase, retool, chase, retool, chase... gets costly. Storage coins might beat convenience of Amazon in cost per space etc for some purposes, but both will cost more than a fully specialized dedicated pro mining op at scale. Then there are network, counterparty, and other risks. Thus did not suggest it. People could study such things more, make famous conference presentations and coins, compete in markets...
I think I'm understanding something wrong. What error did I make below? Filecoin
https://file.app/ $0.0292 / TB-Month
Siacoin https://siastats.info/storage_pricing $4.29 / TB-Month Amazon Glacier https://aws.amazon.com/glacier/pricing/ $4.00 / TB-Month It does look like things have changed since I noticed what was up a little. What's most relevant is that the fact that these chains ever let data expire is simply an artefact of their design: they could be changed to never let anything be deleted ever, and still pay people for storing it via mining and fees.
What's most relevant is that the fact that these chains ever let data expire is simply an artefact of their design: they could be changed to never let anything be deleted ever, and still pay people for storing it via mining and fees.
Distributed encrypted overlay storage networks for both reliable and lossy storage, or both in one, will see a lot of ongoing development. Though it won't be as efficient, expect to also see people renting out precomputed space to miners mountpoints at various oversubscription ratios, over various chosen input ranges beyond just random.
https://file.app/ $0.0292 / TB-Month
https://siastats.info/storage_pricing $4.29 / TB-Month
https://aws.amazon.com/glacier/pricing/ $4.00 / TB-Month
Consider if those are prices for worthless lossy storage. Chia depends on the miner being able to find precomputed answers on storage, if that storage is constantly evaporating the miners data out from under them, the miner has no answers, and has to waste even more time-energy-money backfilling those holes in their rainbow tables again. Then also consider if those prices meet the hard economic reality of actual long term raw storage pricing, versus being subsidized by foolish investor rounds, loss leader sales promotions, etc. Today, $685 / 18 TiB / 12 mo / 5 yr = $0.6343 per TiB-month-lifetime. Just for the raw disk, before paying for everything else needed to export it to the world over whatever network. At $0.03 per T-m[-l?], FileCoin is clearly a counterparty bankruptcy risk to your data. Even if people are yield farming their otherwise unused disk extents off their home and business hardware into FileCoin for fun, those users are pricing their slack space way too low to ever buy even a pizza with their earnings. SiaCoin and Amazon are pricing closer to reality after export costs and profit. The sweet spot between price, capacity, watts, chassis volume, speed, etc is always moving. https://www.zdnet.com/article/worlds-largest-ssd-hits-100tb/ Apricorn ADT-3PL256F-18TB 18tb Aegis Padlock Dt Ext Secure Usb 3.0 256-bit Aes Secure, lol.
Consider if those are prices for worthless lossy storage.
? Why would they be lossy? Chia depends on the miner being able to find precomputed
answers on storage, if that storage is constantly evaporating the miners data out from under them, the miner has no answers, and has to waste even more time-energy-money backfilling those holes in their rainbow tables again.
Honestly, I briefly made a script to plot on sia's free unlimited storage mirrors some time ago and the problem ended up being my personal bandwidth. It took me more than the time of a block to personally download enough data to make noticeable money. Filecoin's free storage is at https://nft.storage . Free storage of unlimited data that is important to the world, in 100 MiB chunks.
Then also consider if those prices meet the hard economic reality of actual long term raw storage pricing, versus being subsidized by foolish investor rounds, loss leader sales promotions, etc.
Today, $685 / 18 TiB / 12 mo / 5 yr = $0.6343 per TiB-month-lifetime.
Is this the lifetime of a rotating disk? Have you considered bulk tape storage? What about Moore's law? At $0.03 per T-m[-l?], FileCoin is clearly a counterparty bankruptcy
risk to your data. Even if people are yield farming their otherwise unused disk extents off their home and business hardware into FileCoin for fun, those users are pricing their slack space way too low to ever buy even a pizza with their earnings.
Every blockchain starts this way. People like making a few cents, some are passionate and have existing capital, others have a business plan.
SiaCoin and Amazon are pricing closer to reality after
export costs and profit.
Unlike Amazon, sia's and filecoin's price is decided solely by individual sellers and buyers. If those prices are real, then somebody is pumping sia or trashing filecoin, or both. The sweet spot between price, capacity, watts, chassis volume,
speed, etc is always moving.
Certainly true.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/worlds-largest-ssd-hits-100tb/
It's also the world's most energy efficient SSD, drawing as little as 0.1
Watts per TB, which is about 80- to 90-percent lower than the competition.
Apricorn ADT-3PL256F-18TB 18tb Aegis Padlock Dt Ext Secure Usb 3.0 256-bit
Aes
Secure, lol.
The wars from people believing these marketing, continue to escalate.
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 06:43:18 -0400 Karl Semich <0xloem@gmail.com> wrote:
It's also the world's most energy efficient SSD, drawing as little as 0.1
Watts per TB, which is about 80- to 90-percent lower than the competition.
HTML is from copy-pasting the article on a phone.
Isn't high time for you karl to close your JEWMAIL account and put your retardphone in the trash? I mean, what kind of cypherpunk are you exactly?
On Thu, Jun 3, 2021, 12:03 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 06:43:18 -0400 Karl Semich <0xloem@gmail.com> wrote:
It's also the world's most energy efficient SSD, drawing as little as
0.1
Watts per TB, which is about 80- to 90-percent lower than the competition.
HTML is from copy-pasting the article on a phone.
Isn't high time for you karl to close your JEWMAIL account and put your retardphone in the trash? I mean, what kind of cypherpunk are you exactly?
I did that a while ago, something seems to have changed in my behavior. What do you use to send email? How do you know when somebody's a cypherpunk?
On Thu, Jun 3, 2021, 12:38 PM Karl Semich <0xloem@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 3, 2021, 12:03 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 06:43:18 -0400 Karl Semich <0xloem@gmail.com> wrote:
It's also the world's most energy efficient SSD, drawing as little as
0.1
Watts per TB, which is about 80- to 90-percent lower than the competition.
HTML is from copy-pasting the article on a phone.
Isn't high time for you karl to close your JEWMAIL account and put your retardphone in the trash? I mean, what kind of cypherpunk are you exactly?
I did that a while ago, something seems to have changed in my behavior.
What do you use to send email? How do you know wh
[failed to change thread title when topic changed, try to change it if punk replies without doing so]
en somebody's a cypherpunk?
Why would they be lossy?
Because someone brought lossy into the thread as an option.
Free storage of unlimited data that is important to the world
Free to you is only upon gift of others.
Is this the lifetime of a rotating disk?
Once past early death can be many years, but amortization, depreciation, obsolete size/power, etc starts coming into play around there. https://www.backblaze.com/
Have you considered bulk tape storage?
In thread.
What about Moore's law?
Moore is just an observation over past manufacturing advances, not a law of physics. Chips are now down to sub-2nm. Actual laws of physics, hard quantum limits, tens of atoms, are starting to apply below that range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law This problem is also why cryptocurrency development should explore moving beyond first-gen blockchains that keep growing in perpetuity per transaction, to a chainless history-free state database whose forever size is naturally just the number of all unspent outputs. Some coins are working on developing that tech, but you'd have to find and post the links to them.
Every blockchain starts this way. People like making a few cents, some are passionate and have existing capital, others have a business plan.
They can start and like whatever they want, but unless they dream up a way to magically cut the cost of drives from $0.63 down to $0.03, they'll still be bankrupt in short order. Nothing is ever truly free but solar input, while it lasts.
On Fri, Jun 4, 2021, 6:13 AM grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
Why would they be lossy?
Because someone brought lossy into the thread as an option.
This was you, right?
Free storage of unlimited data that is important to the world
Free to you is only upon gift of others.
I'm big on gift economies, I don't need to cover them up. But yes that's obvious.
Is this the lifetime of a rotating disk?
Once past early death can be many years, but amortization, depreciation, obsolete size/power, etc starts coming into play around there.
Have you considered bulk tape storage?
In thread.
What about Moore's law?
Moore is just an observation over past manufacturing advances, not a law of physics. Chips are now down to sub-2nm.
I thought it was a set of business agreements. Actual laws of physics, hard quantum limits, tens of atoms,
are starting to apply below that range.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law
This problem is also why cryptocurrency development should explore moving beyond first-gen blockchains that keep growing in perpetuity per transaction, to a chainless history-free state database whose forever size is naturally just the number of all unspent outputs. Some coins are working on developing that tech, but you'd have to find and post the links to them.
Ethereum was pursuing that stuff for a bit. Similar to Wikipedia articles with deleted history. A joke topic is missing: free speech around highly classified or dangerous information. You could power a city and build a space station in that city, based on the physical processes that result from really highly suppressed information.
Every blockchain starts this way. People like making a few cents, some are
passionate and have existing capital, others have a business plan.
They can start and like whatever they want, but unless they dream up a way to magically cut the cost of drives from $0.63 down to $0.03, they'll still be bankrupt in short order.
Nothing is ever truly free but solar input, while it lasts.
Volcanos, tides, waves, temperature differentials in the earth, huge underground aquifers that span the globe and never stop pumping, charge differentials up the atmosphere that cause lightning ... but we don't actually need all that electricity so it's mostly a cultural game. But obviously blockchains assume that scarcity produces discovery. Make a blockchain that facilitates free invention, all the others grow.
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