[ot][personal] cult reading notes
as i get farther into the cult book, i understand the importance of writing down what you agree, disagree, or want to look more into, as the author says to do. it is so rare to hear somebody talking about what the book talks about, and it engages my experiences when done, that i can forget the things i disagree about with the author entirely and begin believing whatever he says. ch3: - i so much agree with BITE. nobody ever says this. systematic control of Behavior, Information, Thoughts and Emotions. [confused: BITE must mean how we are eating people's spirits like zombies eating brains.] - i don't think it's clear to call all influence groups cults when cults inspire images of people in robes worshiping dead animals, not really a huge thing - i disagree that meditation with belief in eventual levitation or flying is harmful. i believe this is a good thing, without destructive attributes itself, to give people inspiration to spend time becoming more thoughtful. i do not mind that popular science believes that levitation does not happen from pensation: many people hold belief systems that have disparity with popular science, and use this as reason for prayer or dedicated behavior. i have no trouble considering that this belief is _used_ harmfully by some people. i think personally i see the belief as an analogy to how, when you meditate well and long enough, you begin seeing more and more things that others do not ever see: things you can do, reasons people do things, etc etc. this seems it could become a similar super power to flying. personally, i found i develop a comparable feeling to flying when i gain mastery over my body like with skilled free running. - MOVE is mentioned as an example of a cult. it was an activism group for black people. given MOVE was so politically targeted that most members were killed by the police, it seems far more likely that the political targeting (and disreputating messaging) was engaging in any destructive influence than the group. counter ref 62 - similarly i am of course skeptical that a democratic workers collective would be a destructive cult, and worry some around political harm in the label; workers collectives have been repeatedly targeted, sometimes killed en masse by corporations or governments, in our nation's and global history. counter ref 64 fragment: pierce told me "some of us are felons, some of us have families." i mentioned worrying about being tracked with my phone to pierce. he had me turn it on, and then suddenly cory visited, and spoke to me about the red and the blue. he lay down on the floor next to pierce's bed, just waiting. we had an intuitive conversation where he would wait and be silent before each thing he said. [sarah said a fragment of an expression to me, as if people were saying things that only made sense if all taken together as parts of the same sentence] finished writing fragment 2022-08-20 1033 [the interaction seemed very influential and strange. cory would often say he "was just happy to be involved". he said he had come off a long hiking trail, but lived as a homeless person who never left the city. i was in an intense state of mind, near the end of behaving with strong intuition. i think i had taken a jesus emblem with me, and showed a text message to sarah on my phone.] - farther along, the author says that a concern around worrying about mind control is that everything can be seen as mind control, as if this is a struggle normal people have. i have also been exposed to this belief. it is not normal at all. where did it come from? - further: it seems reasonable to say that the only reason it would be unclear whether a group is destructive or non-destructive, after observing it, would be due to influence preventing this clarity. clearly this clarity is needed badly. - in the section regarding childhood sexual abuse, which explains how learned phobias produce an environment for repeat abuse, i became worried for a friend i love, who was sexually abused as a child. this worry shortly became numb and hidden for me, and is hard for me to consider now. - "Put a person into a situation where his senses are overloaded with non-coherent information, and the mind will go "numb" as a protective mechanism. It gets confused and overwhelmed, and critical faculties no longer work properly. It is in this weakened state that people become very open to suggestion." - i'm thinking of how my influence seemed to me to pretend to be the things i was passionate about, kind of starting off with offering a "deal" that if i "really wanted to get involved" i would need to do this or that - somewhat uncomfortable around the recommendation of trusting search results regarding terms like "criminal" or "abuser". i think i have hits around "criminal" as does somebody i respect have "abuser", where these hits are from disinformation in my opinion. one possible difference: if a powerful influence is involved and it is disreputing the person, the hits go near the top; if a powerful influence is involved and it is supporting the person, the hits go near the bottom. anyway it is very normal to do such web searchers, so it's mostly moot. - the book does not yet describe how the sharedness of indoctrination techniques between groups and how this indicates collaboration among the cult leaders. it could be important to remember that we are at a time where power is catalyzing and everyone must protect the freedom of the entire world. - it's hard for me to see forthright faith healing as a human rights violation; death is a needed part of life and truly is the domain of a deity, and the placebo effect is very strong. obviously if the efforts are deceptive or disinformative and non-spiritual in benefit or result, things are different. - maybe what's reasonable to consider here is that the author is describing a horrific lifelong torture that few people can imagine, and it is very hard to convey this to someone who has not experienced it. - the book mentions another book by Harvey Schwartz that mentions wolves and sheep and soldiers, and internalized perpetration. it is about terrorist recruitment of children, but likely the techniques and stories have overlap with other things. my experience had wolf/sheep/soldier themes. it seemed to me a wolf was a mind controller; it seemed to me a sheep was somebody who didn't want to be one; it seemed to me a soldier was somebody who had seen the horrors of these things (and [did urgent work?]) and had ptsd and other things from it. - it looks like the book author's community needs help setting laws to protect people from mind control groups - it would have been hard to help me as i [learned to] identified all things as my own psychological issues
Why are you posting here? mark On Sat, Aug 20, 2022 at 10:16 AM Undiscussed Groomed for Male Slavery, One Victim of Many <gmkarl+brainwashingandfuckingupthehackerslaves@gmail.com> wrote:
as i get farther into the cult book, i understand the importance of writing down what you agree, disagree, or want to look more into, as the author says to do.
it is so rare to hear somebody talking about what the book talks about, and it engages my experiences when done, that i can forget the things i disagree about with the author entirely and begin believing whatever he says.
ch3:
- i so much agree with BITE. nobody ever says this. systematic control of Behavior, Information, Thoughts and Emotions. [confused: BITE must mean how we are eating people's spirits like zombies eating brains.]
- i don't think it's clear to call all influence groups cults when cults inspire images of people in robes worshiping dead animals, not really a huge thing
- i disagree that meditation with belief in eventual levitation or flying is harmful. i believe this is a good thing, without destructive attributes itself, to give people inspiration to spend time becoming more thoughtful. i do not mind that popular science believes that levitation does not happen from pensation: many people hold belief systems that have disparity with popular science, and use this as reason for prayer or dedicated behavior. i have no trouble considering that this belief is _used_ harmfully by some people. i think personally i see the belief as an analogy to how, when you meditate well and long enough, you begin seeing more and more things that others do not ever see: things you can do, reasons people do things, etc etc. this seems it could become a similar super power to flying. personally, i found i develop a comparable feeling to flying when i gain mastery over my body like with skilled free running.
- MOVE is mentioned as an example of a cult. it was an activism group for black people. given MOVE was so politically targeted that most members were killed by the police, it seems far more likely that the political targeting (and disreputating messaging) was engaging in any destructive influence than the group. counter ref 62
- similarly i am of course skeptical that a democratic workers collective would be a destructive cult, and worry some around political harm in the label; workers collectives have been repeatedly targeted, sometimes killed en masse by corporations or governments, in our nation's and global history. counter ref 64
fragment: pierce told me "some of us are felons, some of us have families." i mentioned worrying about being tracked with my phone to pierce. he had me turn it on, and then suddenly cory visited, and spoke to me about the red and the blue. he lay down on the floor next to pierce's bed, just waiting. we had an intuitive conversation where he would wait and be silent before each thing he said. [sarah said a fragment of an expression to me, as if people were saying things that only made sense if all taken together as parts of the same sentence] finished writing fragment 2022-08-20 1033 [the interaction seemed very influential and strange. cory would often say he "was just happy to be involved". he said he had come off a long hiking trail, but lived as a homeless person who never left the city. i was in an intense state of mind, near the end of behaving with strong intuition. i think i had taken a jesus emblem with me, and showed a text message to sarah on my phone.]
- farther along, the author says that a concern around worrying about mind control is that everything can be seen as mind control, as if this is a struggle normal people have. i have also been exposed to this belief. it is not normal at all. where did it come from?
- further: it seems reasonable to say that the only reason it would be unclear whether a group is destructive or non-destructive, after observing it, would be due to influence preventing this clarity. clearly this clarity is needed badly.
- in the section regarding childhood sexual abuse, which explains how learned phobias produce an environment for repeat abuse, i became worried for a friend i love, who was sexually abused as a child. this worry shortly became numb and hidden for me, and is hard for me to consider now.
- "Put a person into a situation where his senses are overloaded with non-coherent information, and the mind will go "numb" as a protective mechanism. It gets confused and overwhelmed, and critical faculties no longer work properly. It is in this weakened state that people become very open to suggestion."
- i'm thinking of how my influence seemed to me to pretend to be the things i was passionate about, kind of starting off with offering a "deal" that if i "really wanted to get involved" i would need to do this or that
- somewhat uncomfortable around the recommendation of trusting search results regarding terms like "criminal" or "abuser". i think i have hits around "criminal" as does somebody i respect have "abuser", where these hits are from disinformation in my opinion. one possible difference: if a powerful influence is involved and it is disreputing the person, the hits go near the top; if a powerful influence is involved and it is supporting the person, the hits go near the bottom. anyway it is very normal to do such web searchers, so it's mostly moot.
- the book does not yet describe how the sharedness of indoctrination techniques between groups and how this indicates collaboration among the cult leaders. it could be important to remember that we are at a time where power is catalyzing and everyone must protect the freedom of the entire world.
- it's hard for me to see forthright faith healing as a human rights violation; death is a needed part of life and truly is the domain of a deity, and the placebo effect is very strong. obviously if the efforts are deceptive or disinformative and non-spiritual in benefit or result, things are different.
- maybe what's reasonable to consider here is that the author is describing a horrific lifelong torture that few people can imagine, and it is very hard to convey this to someone who has not experienced it.
- the book mentions another book by Harvey Schwartz that mentions wolves and sheep and soldiers, and internalized perpetration. it is about terrorist recruitment of children, but likely the techniques and stories have overlap with other things. my experience had wolf/sheep/soldier themes. it seemed to me a wolf was a mind controller; it seemed to me a sheep was somebody who didn't want to be one; it seemed to me a soldier was somebody who had seen the horrors of these things (and [did urgent work?]) and had ptsd and other things from it.
- it looks like the book author's community needs help setting laws to protect people from mind control groups
- it would have been hard to help me as i [learned to] identified all things as my own psychological issues
ch3
mind-stilling generates strong releases of brain chemicals which cause not only a dissociated mental state but also a “high” similar to that created by drugs and other addictions. Some former members who have used these techniques for several years report a wide variety of deleterious side effects, including severe headaches, involuntary muscle spasms and diminution of cognitive faculties like memory, concentration, and decision-making ability.
ch4 - author says biofeedback is one of many systems used to encourage autonomy rather than undermining it - the people who changed their personalities to run and support concentration camps were exposed to three psychological things: _behavior modification_ (consistent social relations that alter people's behavior without their awareness), , _group conformity_ (how individuals respond to patterns in groups), and _obedience to authority_ (behavior changes when one is directed by an authority or trusted figure) - to me it seems giving people a ridiculous thing to believe, then showing it is false but asking their belief to stay, is a way of testing their dedication and manipulability - when i described my experiences of being manipulated last decade, i would always get negative social feedback and no reply. whether natural or influenced, this is patent behavior modification. - i have definitely experienced mind control, and it is very hard for me to think about. i should call these people and ask them for advice. - "if you control the information someone receives, you restrict his ability to think for himself" - mind control theory stems from a theory called "cognitive dissonance theory". - four components of mind control: control of Behavior, control of Information, control of Thoughts, control of Emotions - cognitive dissonance happens when people experience contradictions. people shift their actual behavior, thoughts, and emotions, so as to reduce the dissonance when it is too extreme. my personal experience is that this relates to limits of emotional memory. i guess it is then somewhat sensical that i experience severe memory issues. i have fear here and something missing. - cognitive dissonance theory says people need to maintain order and meaning in their life, and to think they are acting according to their values and self-image; so these things shift to sustain this. i would describe this as dissociative trauma. it is painful to be somebody other than yourself. - this is really intense - a key takeaway from BITE is that only _one_ element of behavior, information, thoughts, or emotions needs to be controlled, to influence the other 3 and establish mind control - behavior control is generally asserted by limiting people's access, occupying their time, and/or establishing norms, notably of reduced decision making. people are generally in controlled groups and may experience reward/punishment via hierarchy, which they may believe they enjoy. ritual behaviors bind things together. - "social proof" is similar to but different from my internal "proof" label that my parts used to work with thoughts [... whether ,,, based on real experiences] - mentions the requirement of positive affect - information control: "deception is the biggest tool"; "essential". later, behavior control gives a ton of information control. spying hierarchically as a norm is performed. [hierarchical spying]. cult-specific information sources are produced. people are kept separate from others with disparate information, especially outside the group. [phone call screening]. local news about relevant cult activities are kept filtered. more "inner" differing information is revealed as superiors deem people ready. - members often believe they are experts on their group, but generally are the least in the know - daydreaming about finding therapy. maybe i could ask them to give a free training to sascha, and also hunt down a female therapist etc to resist information control across gender lines - the experience of believing controversial information and thinking both are "true" without issue is one i share; this is where cultists land when they learn "inner" information. for me the "truth" lets me speak to others honestly. amnesia now harming my further perceptions, sad. what i wrote might have been wrong. my experience was different from the one in the book. - ::: this section describes BITE from a place of physical cults. i did not enter a physical cult that i am aware of. i had these things through the less physical channels, such as "gang-stalking"/exposure to other influenced people, heavy behavior modification online, behavior of authority figures, communication channels, and technology, and [experiential cognitive dissonance], ... - thought control is engaged via indoctrination and an all-answering doctrine, cult-specific loaded languages of explanation and discourse, and thought-stopping techniques - rather than a cult-specific truth, although i saw some of this, i think it seemed i was mostly exposed to a denial of there being truth at all, which increases the dissonance. it definitely seemed like there were multiple systems going on simultaneously. - totalistic cult language "condenses complex situations, labels them, and reduces them to cult cliches" sound familiar? author says the label governs how members think. i've seen this for influence on non-members of course and my analysis has been around how the establishment and implicit use of assumptions engages our conversational and cognitive habits. when somebody assumes rather than debate, there is more dissonance -- more emotional memory required to engage without shifting -- in the responder. - thinking some on the authors description of 'cain abel' problems and whether a term is used to stop thinking around a situation, or to express an opinion, one's actual thoughts, around it. thinking that because the cain-abel label applied to all hierarchically vertical disputes, it became thought-stopping; but i guess it seems more the lack of clarity in the meaning of the words makes it this way, too, when a more clear label could be used to simply state the speaker's opinion that the person on the lower hierarchy must obey the person on the higher. remembering that words are how they are used. i think i'm wanting here to defend phrases used in communities with shared beliefs, when those aren't harmful. hard to think about. maybe a reasonable question is: does the phrase open the dialog towards more respectful and deeper considering, or does it close the dialog and push a specific action? this is probably easier for others to think about than for me. - loaded, cliche-filled languages also put up an information wall between the indoctrinated and the public, and possibly provide a confusion-driven path to guide newcomers through - loaded language helps them learn how _not_ to think or understand ... 'They learn that "understanding" means accepting and believing". remembering my consternation at the concept of understanding being bad. my subconsciousness physically hurt me, contracting my face to the point of intense pain against my will, to discourage any concepts of understanding, in that way i spent a year or more navigating. - learning of habits to retain the new thoughts and push out old or outside thoughts - describes layers of thought boundaries; denial, rationalization, justification, and wishful thinking - calling things out as fake news and conspiracies to keep members within information bounds. techniques like this result in criticism of the group strengthening dedication of members. - distracting behaviors/rituals learned to quickly engage to manage thought bounds. this can confuse me, as i have a habit of distraction i engage to manage my amnesia issues and such, but i also have the automatic self-distracting behavior triggers he describes, sometimes aware i am distracting myself, sometimes not. - "After leaving a cult that employs extensive thought-stopping techniques, a person normally goes through a difficult withdrawal process before they can overcome the addiction." - thought-stopping is very effective, and can effectively produce feeling control and slavery - these things definitely do not describe all my experiences. noticing how i respond to digital imagery flickers / unexpected UI inconsistencies very intensely. - emotional control: "guilt and fear figure mightily. however, most members cannot see". "they are both essential tools". i had huge projected guilt and fear, intensely obsessive. fear is used to prevent unwanted behaviors. author describes cult defining feelings based on behaviors etc desired to respond to them. i think i was exposed to this but was cut off when i rejected it. says happiness is the behaviors the cult desires, i think. strong value around loyalty and devotion, negative emotions only toward outsiders. criticize only the self. - first exposure to this section gives a lot of memories of exposure to facebook and community influence patterns before things went [to hell]. - cult definition of sexuality somewhat in this section [it seemed to me love was redefined as sex and marriage, removing caringness. very harsh. very strange to think of somebody as married to] [thinking of intense dissonance of behaviors being cast in terms of cult-like belief systems during possible behavior modification. quite similar to assumption dissonance.] - dependency and helplessness from randomness of reward and punishment [recall learning of pavlovian response being stronger when reward is random, while experiencing this, possibly roughlyish] - snippet from a daydream: "i don't think that any group you trust is a cult. i think we've both been exposed to mind control similar to that used in cults, by the people we _don't_ trust, not the people we do." [of course reality is important if it differs !] - entrapment: "anything you say can _and will_ be used against you. This device can even extend to blackmail, if you leave the cult." associated with fear of speaking out - strong fears around leaving built via both overt and covert horror stories. e.g. insanity. cults say members are free to leave, but prevent members from doing this via behavior, thought, information, and emotion control. - note: my experiences are not what a deprogrammer would expect. i need therapy for mind control, and my experiences are not what a deprogrammer would expect. - strongest minded individuals tend to get most involved and enthusiastic. similar to my experience regarding mind controlling challenges. [inhibition may relate to lack of clarity] - no one cult does _all_ the BITE approaches; meanwhile there are more that are not listed. - some phobia indoctrinations are extremely subtle - this looks like a mistake to me: "What matters most is the overall impact on the individual. Are they truly in control of their life choices? The only way to tell is to give them the opportunity to reflect, to gain free access to all information and to know that they are free to leave the group if they choose." This doesn't seem to address the BITE influences causing mind control, which seem specifically there to prevent those 3 thing. Maybe explained later. - the next section is getting too triggery for me. unfreezing/changing/refreezing is how my memories and behaviors change. i very strongly dislike this, and have found no way to talk about and manage it. this is a weekend and the people are not open. holy frack. - i strongly dislike this model. i think we very much need to prevent it. that is my opinion. - i am sad i dropped this. they said i could have a free session if i read the book and took the course. i am presently planning to find a referral to somebody with more availability. I ALSO KNOW AN EXISTING HYPNOTHERAPIST. after reading this much I should be able to work with him, or any hypnotherapist, much better.
reminding self that internal experiences of freezing/changing/unfreezing are different from china's extensive, _external_ programs, half a century ago. these are different things.
the plan is to call them when they are open in 2 days. i will find my notes on when they are available.
Thanks Karl. Very good informative information. I love you! ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 3:20 PM, Undiscussed Groomed for Male Slavery, One Victim of Many <gmkarl+brainwashingandfuckingupthehackerslaves@gmail.com> wrote:
the plan is to call them when they are open in 2 days. i will find my notes on when they are available.
On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 01:26:55 +0000 Rooty <arpspoof@protonmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Karl. Very good informative information. I love you!
another worthless piece of shit goes to automatic deletion.
------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 3:20 PM, Undiscussed Groomed for Male Slavery, One Victim of Many <gmkarl+brainwashingandfuckingupthehackerslaves@gmail.com> wrote:
the plan is to call them when they are open in 2 days. i will find my notes on when they are available.
Thank you and I love you rooty! I must admit I don't know who you are, but I keep this somewhat quiet!
blargh i am such an idiot. anyway > "To ready a person for radical change, their reality must first be shaken up. Their indoctrinators must confuse and disorient them. Their frames of refrence for understanding themselves and their surroundings must be challenged and broken down. Upsetting their view of reality disarms their natural defenses against concepts that challenge that reality." - usually sleep deprivation is simplest; changes in diets and schedules. easiest in a totally controlled environment, also works in familiar environments. hypnotic processes also powerful. - particularly effective hypnotic technique: deliberate use of confusion to induce a trance state. confusion usually results whenever contradictory information is communicated congruently. There's a semi-familiar example here: [warning: dangerous:] "The more you try to understand what I am saying, the less you will never be able to understand it. Do you understand?" Comments before reading on: the sentence describes its own impact. It stimulates the mind to try to connect parts of speech in a way that is contradicatory, while holding the assumption that it is _not_ contradictory. I have a certain response to such expressions, after my experiences. I'm interested to map out the parts, and this will result in my inner habits changing because of my triggers to it. I plan to do it later, during a state of mind when I am familiar with grappling with such things, and for some reason and am now changing and trying it now. Time limit: 4 minutes. . the less you will never be able to understand it. <- this phrase contains two overlapping disjoint phrasese: "the less you will" and "you will never be able to understand it". when the mind tries to consider the whole thing together, it considers that it could be _either_ of the two phrases. it does this in the context of assuming that there is a problem in the sentence: that considering it more may make it more complex. it also does it in the context of discerning whether or not the sentence is understandable, and trying to understand it. i might guess that there is more subconscious effort to try to understand it, because both of the conjoined phrases are simple and familiar. - the literal meaning of the phrase i believe would refer to a degree of neverness with regard to understanding itself. hence, the whole statement would express that trying to understand the phrase stimulates reduced neverness in understanding it. This is, at the end, a basic tautology regarding the general impact of trying to understand it. - when considering it, the phrase "you will never be able to understand it" sticks out in the mind. to me, this can seem impactful and frightening, and for some reason i respond to it be by halting and restarting my considering - the fact that the phrase refers to itself in a confusing way, i imagine spawning non-relevant thoughts that kind of, in the mind, "look for" a way to conclude, but out of context. i imagine these as being easy to influence or ready to connect to something that could make them make more sense even a little, even if that thing does not make a larger sense. - given the statement is a confusing tautology that leaves people disoriented, i kind of read it as being a bit of a secret message between hypnotists controlling others, maybe joking about fragility of the minds of people who haven't learned hypnotism. that was a lot of spewing! part of me still goes back to the sentence and wants to reconsider its parts, especially the ones that make partial sense and then halt when the context gets larger in my mind, and that then kind of restart and do it again; even though i think i wrote all my immediate thoughts. i could drill in more on that sidespreadish i'm experiencing, but it looks more like i'm engaging a habit of doing something in my mind other than simply considering the sentence. - "if a person is kept in a controlled environment long enough, and is repeatedly fed such disorienting language and confusing information, they will usually suspend their critical judgment and adapt to what everyone else is doing." - "bombarded by emotionally laden material at a rate faster than they can digest it." ... "may think this is happening spontaneously within themselves, but the cult has intentionally structured it that way" - in addition to confusion, unfreezing can involve rituals that increase in strength (privacy deprivation aligns this with unfreezing and confusion). in my personal experiences and ideas, i've found rituals like this during an experience of unfreezing can actually help "refreeze the unfreezing" -- such that the mind establishes the unfrozen state as more of a norm and can take much longer to return. other personal thoughts: it seems to me that our memory sustains itself in cycles. when a person can be kept in altered states, where our consciousness goes to rest changes, and this changes the patterns that are driven by those cycles. i describe this internally as e.g. migration from working memory to short term memory, daydreams, worries, "reviews" of memories to develop them, migration of short term memories to long term memories ... . this thematically aligns with the changes to my abilities to cry and to relax, too, maybe also creative expression or even brainstorming. > regarding group rituals, but shows this goal, and the association could be a mistake: "enforces privacy deprivation and thwarts a person's need to be alone, think and reflect." privacy deprivation was a huge catalyst in my mind control; anywhere i went, people would be there. this had never happened in my life ever before. even after hours at my closed storage unit, or pulled over by the side of a road in the woods. by the time i found actual prtivacy i had learned to always internalise anxiety around being followed, and didn't believe it was there. people would approach me out of nowhere ... - book says cults usually heavily criticise, embarass or such people in some way, towards the end of unfreezing, heavily questioning whether their current state is reasonable - "changing" then involves filling the voice left by unfreezing, with new information. messages repeated heavily. - i'm imagining developing a sense of normalness and reward around the "changing" messaging. as if it becomes the way to not have the disorientation of the unfreezing. [at an extreme, like my experience of my feet freezing altering my state of consciousness, giving me a desire to connect to anything to resolve things] - ow: "Surrender. Let go. Have faith." [this is a triggery phrase for me, it seemed to me it was used as described in the book. people need to honor the reasons they have their existing ways. that doesn't necessarily mean rejecting new ones: it means including what makes sense. "let go" can be so helpful when people are in a safe environment that is either natural or in line with their culture etc; but it can be so bad when experiencing [undue influence], which can be everywhere, especially in some environments. the movie "frozen" happened after the "great new world" began, and uses "let go" in a way children could likely copy and get excited around. children need their willpower. somebody at disney got "let go" and shared it with an entire generation. /rant omigod] - starts gradually - i received a phone call and it is hard for me to process the material after the call - rhythmicnes of lectures induces more hypnotic/sleepy state, which makes the recipient more receptive to the changing - book describes surprise of knowing unshared information as indicating mindreading, rather than surveillance - one cult leader paid muggers to engage recruits, to increase their fear outside the cult - being completely surrounded by indoctrinated members engages strong group psychology. ["people who ask too many questions are quickly isolated from the main body of other members"] - norm across cults of dividing people into "good sheep" and "troublesome goats" overtly. - "sharing" sessions teach conformity via positive/negative feedback ... behavior modification. [this also gives a lot of detail on the individual] - refreezing. can take days to months to form new cult self, can also take longer - "an individual's memory becomes distorted, minimizing the good things in the past and maximizing their sins, failings, hurts and guilt"; maybe relates to beliefs held during memory cycling - dramatic public actions, confessions, other rituals, server to abandon old ways and become embedded in cult - copying behaviors of others - new sense of who one's parent, family is ['redefining family' again] - changes. name, clothing, haircut. reduces memories of past [changes locus of stability]. learn a distinctive jargon to speak. - huge life change such as turning over money and other possessions. "it would be too painful to admit that this was a foolish mistake"; harshens disparity, produces dependency - "consistency is an important aspect of influence" - can be many months of sleep deprivation, lack of privacy, and dietary change. may be relocated. - job established proselytizing: recruiting others firms one's beliefs - dependency is built - it is in refreezing when a harsh disparity is constructed between one's new way of life, and one's own, maybe reducing the storage, use, access of memories prioviding for considering both ways and changing one's mind [possibly stimulates amnesia around previous life] - sustained dissonance of some forms or regarding older life, while consistency in something new - extended behaviors of martyrdom such as 24-hour fundraising without shelter - indoctrination then repeated over a few years. then they train others. - cult members have two identities: the cult self and the private authentic self. this is weirdest when they are first indoctrinated - the flip between the behaviors is clear to the experienced - cult identity usually present, occasionally old self reappears my experiences over these years are similar to the unfreezing, changing, refreezing. my inability to access friends or people with similar values or similar work, the radical difference in the interactions and my new way of life. these things would make integration much harder. the weirdness on this list could be seen as like the dissonance in indoctrination programs that is associated with old ways of life. we forget how it used to be, and slowly start participating in whatever is new. - author describes cult personas as talking like "tape loops" of cult material. affect is strikingly different and fits a mind control profile. authentic self heavily deviated from profile. - "mid-sentence, a different identity has taken over their body". [recognizing this described as key to helping people] > "mind control virus" > "the hardware (self) ... sees and records contradictions, questions, and disilusioning experiences" this is of course getting harder, more amnesia. i imagine somewhat the cult persona as telling itself a story over and over again, and this story fading or mutating if not reinforced. i think of how the mind needs logic in order to do basic activities in the world: and this logic could be thought of as an undercurrent to illogical ongoing things. > "even hough they knew at the time that they were doing soemthing wrong or were being abused ... it was only when their real self was given permission and encouragement to speak that these things came back into consciousness" - "bringing that person's own experiences into the light, so that they can process them consciously with their real self." - real self is key - serious psychosomatic illnesses (skin problems, asthma, allergies, headaches, backaches, chronic fatugie, are just a few) ... real self can use as ways to provide exit [no mention yet of these stimulating to deter exit] - backwards talking: please do not contact professional counselor; reveals such counselors exist, raises the topic. [backwards talking provides for people to comply and communicate at the same time] - nightmares regarding being lost, hurt, trapped, choked, suffocated, imprisoned in concentration camp. ... real self encouraging leaving [inverse not mentioned yet] powerful spiritual experiences giving instructions on how to leave - experiences leaving can seem like divine intervention [yup]. author left cult in way mother was praying, somehow. - after people are free, they cry in joy
[warning: dangerous:] "The more you try to understand what I am saying, the less you will never be able to understand it. Do you understand?"
I thought a little bit about this and what seems really valuable is the idea that, when I consider parts of something, I seem to have a habit to judge what nearby parts are most useful to consider. It seems helpful to describe that judgement as tending to pick the product of the usefulness and the difficulty, and making decisions when emotional memory bounds are tighter. That is, maybe, my mind will pick the part that looks clearer and less difficult, when taxed. "You will never be able to understand", held alone, is clearer than "the less you will ... [something confusing involving the word "understand"]", and both have the same initial expectation of expressing difficulty understanding things. My mind seems to try to handle the confusion by relying on the presence of the illogical internal phrase that makes more sense when held alone. What's poignant internally here, is that this is a similarity with many other confusions I handle on a moment-to-moment basis, and brings up past trauma and things. When small concepts are triggering or incredibly confusing, the small parts of one's mind seem to try to find ways that consider them more easily, as a way to produce the result the consciousness is seeking. This seems to make dissociation, amnesia, topical confusion ... at least for me. Somewhere near here is probably a way to describe with more clarity the concept of "inhibition". But basically, resisting mind control seems terrifying for me. Very, very dangerous. This fear seems to guide most of my experience --- and actually cause many of the experiences that I find dangerous, nowadays, via my own behaviors. A great example is my attempt to store this idea in these notes. I broke my computer power supply, in the process of reaching this email client, and tried over and over again to fix it: but my hands kept breaking it again instead of fixing it, and then I would scatter the parts and couldn't seem to see them when I looked at them, after scattering them. So frustrating and confusing! But experiences like this, where something seems impossible from one's own patterns, and there is incredible confusion, are analogies to the internal experience of grappling with mind control ... they tell stories of why it develops, and how important it was and is ... CODA: this computer is charging now. Summary: emotional memory, paired with subconscious choices to consider things that are more useful when taxed, can produce experiences that seem exotically bizarre and terrifying, when for me they seem mostly ways to avoid flashbacks that stimulate more relevant terror. Note: maybe show this to a therapist, even one I don't trust, seems really helpful. Comment: i could use more time thinking about this without real-time challenge, so as to be prepared for questions and new ideas better.
helpful to describe that judgement as tending to pick the product of the usefulness and the difficulty, and making decisions when emotional memory bounds are tighter.
errata: this would the product of the usefulness and ease, or the quotient of the usefulness over the difficulty; becomes apparent if considered. note: i've found that at different times my inner procsses can seem described by different heuristics, based on what influences are most intense. usefulness * ease seems to make sense when confused and determined, especially under pressure such as a time limit.
That is, maybe, my mind will pick the part that looks clearer and less difficult, when taxed.
"You will never be able to understand", held alone, is clearer than "the less you will ... [something confusing involving the word "understand"]", and both have the same initial expectation of
i am still irritated that somebody made this dangerous expression ever. it seems like it has some kind of rudeness underneath it.
expressing difficulty understanding things. My mind seems to try to handle the confusion by relying on the presence of the illogical internal phrase that makes more sense when held alone.
when i originally planned to add to these notes, i meant to make a small concise addition, not a long-winded one.
Summary: emotional memory, paired with subconscious choices to consider things that are more useful when taxed, can produce experiences that seem exotically bizarre and terrifying, when for me they seem mostly ways to avoid flashbacks that stimulate more relevant terror.
Note: maybe show this to a therapist, even one I don't trust, seems really helpful. Comment: i could use more time thinking about this without real-time challenge, so as to be prepared for questions and new ideas better.
fabricated this: unfreezing / trauma / trance => changing / suggestion => refreezing / dissociation each one depends on all the others to be accurate: behavior <=> information <=> thought <=> emotion mind control
[ thinking maybe literal "dissociation" goes earlier than the refreezing, don't know could also put "confusion" next to "unfreezing", and maybe "explanation" and "amnesia" next to refreezing. unsure regarding "explanation". ]
ch 5 i'm somewhat concerned it's saying it will be describing in detail what it is like to be a cult member. this could make it a lot harder for me to distinguish between my experiences and what i read, since i'm mostly in an altered state of mind. it could also make it harder to convey or demonstrate to others that my experiences are real, since i could have gotten them from the book. planning on reading anyway. doctrine is reality i'm remembering when i seemed probed via social media for different influenceable patterns, weird beliefs. things responding to my 'likes' in rapid and frightening ways. how this normal system was involved seems similar to how normal people also seem involved, like the police officer who told me this person's organisation could not be contacted likely because they had "gone out of business" with according to them was apparent "because they were offering online services". it's hard to handle the lack of rationality in today's world, and i'm sure influential systems try to advantage by that. some day maybe i can tell whether that is what is up or not. the memory around doctrine of reality and possible probing expands toward the harshness of some of the social network influences that wouldn't respond to my filters or preferences; both automated and via other human beings, a few of whom i met physically. i suppose it's pretty hard to distinguish what was social network, what was physical, what was or is system compromise, and what was my own mind. 0_0 it seems like there's something i have amnesia around similar to the concept of 'doctrine is reality'. not my preference to read through this, but it is my plan. regarding confusing convolution of doctrines, and how that's a part of mind control in general, i'm thinking of the history of mkultra and how i heard it is very confusing, and refrained from reviewing it too much. maybe it isn't. - distrust the self; heavy pattern for me - good/evil thinking. it's funny and painful to never believe this. - deprogrammers and other aid workers as evil - devils taking on forms of friends - stories of huge conspiracies working to thwart the group valuable for me differentiate between mainstream modern issues, and my personal issues. - author traced back influences via studying phobias - disagree re the assumption that having resting agency with a community rather than the individual is inherently harmful, but makes sense here. difference here is that the alternative to individuality is conformity. - book referenced difficulty of cult members thinking for themselves / making their own decisions. i've always had that difficulty somewhat, but it wasn't impossible as if everything in me is fighting it, like it has become. i remembered the time a child pantomimed similar to an intense experience i had, my feet freezing. maybe they saw something similar in a cartoon on social media ;p - "need someone to tell them what to think, feel, and do". in my state of mind of remembering, i'm thinking how this can because it is so frightening what can happen when one does not think, feel, or do, what is expected. - cults he describes have very extended disruptive confusion to keep members kind of dreamy i guess. i guess we experience that too for example on this list, but i also think about the intense experiences of confusion and trauma that can really shift people in shorter terms. - cult members can strike people as weird because they have similar mannerisms - it seems like leader modeling coudl be similar to that experience where one adopts behaviors and affects different from anything one would ever do on their own, as if it is almost natural. - repeated word of "modelling". - in the author's cults, the models the cultists adopt represent the personality of the leader at the top. - all problems of group are emotional and personal responsibility of members - members associate happiness with cult alotment, and it can be given and taken. experiential similarity here. - sense of strong closeness tends to be fantasmal, with actual connection quite shallow - genetic competition norms in the cultures, "bad ancestors". - similarities to domestic abuse, "finding problems in the group and blaming members for them" - holds fear and guilt as both being larger manipulation influences. - emotional highs and lows. i suspect mine were more extreme than described here. - norm of treating objections or criticism with nonverbal negativity, possibly as if it is somehow harmful: 'given silent treatment or transferred to other area'. a lot of my jhabitual influences are similar to how i respond to if i say something and get silence in response. i also experience this a lot: i say things, and get no response. normal things. - emotional highs and lows proportional to activity - saw 'no way out' and remembered people not seeming to know how to leave the city. also remembered remembering trying to find post offices and at one of them the line being incredibly long and a woman saying to me "at least we're in the right place" and asking for my agreement - mutation of sense of memories. doesn't explain how this happens. obviously not my favorite concept. some day i will make my fleet of blockchain'd vlogs. - huge urgency around tasks being performed. experiential thing quite painful. maybe my sense of criticism and removal of the things i valued being crucial could have been in conflict with the crucialness of the moment-to-moment tasks i went through. - psychological prison, just something the author says wow this chapter is so short - moonies had symbolic death for people who leave :/ private concept for me i'm guessing. i'm not a cult ;p - "people who leave cults are extremely courageous". dunno if i left a cult but people need a lot more help than challenges of courage in my strong opinion. - author reminds: those who hide their involvement through shame, doubt, guilt, fear, or anger, are missing a valuable opportunity to help free others by the example of freeing themselves. <=
ch6 yay this chapter is called 'courageous survivor stories' - author fails to immediately associate silence with mind control :( :( instead focusing on "reticence" and "courage", but does mention "being able to share" - stresses importance of talking; helps those but inside and outside. - author expresses strong passion around encouraging people to speak out - strange that the letter from ron hubbard seemed cut to a prefix and there was no followup. one wonders if something else was in play. - standard accusation of child abuse leveled against cult critics: "fair game" -> "tricked, sued, lied to, destroyed". heavy overt disreputation campaign involving gang-stalking. - despite retiring after 12 years of bankrupting harassment, jon returned to helping escapees in 2013 or 2014 (year differs in audiobook vs ebook, maybe one is revised), because they "simply do not recover from the intense hypnotic procedures and humiliating treatment" on their own - academically endorsed blog at https://tonyortega.org - Open Minds Foundation, survivors seek to educate public about and reduce impact of undue influence <== ! - sad to learn about sex trafficking from a man. also sad that the reading will paint over my own experiential intuition on the male side. still, incredibly important information. - sex trafficking was only revealed as violent slavery when model wanted to cancel contract - model was forced to verbalize and repeat that she had chosen the situation - use of bible verses to validate, knowing victim was christian - feigned enjoyment of servitude enforced - learned secret hand sign for public - after only 1 year of exposure, model was taken out by police when identified by another victim - agent was quickly arrested and sentenced to up to 15 years in prison. no discussion at all of further analysis of the trafficking group, superiors, clients, or norms and modes. - victim knew no other survivors, had no understanding of what happened, was not brought to deprogramming - aided by this book and church. i still habitually see church exposure as return to mind control from my experiences. - Ending The Game was made by book author, Carissa Phelps, D'Lita Miller, and the victim; citation 101; intervention curriculum focuses on resisting and recovering from manipulation and coercion [hero story] - interesting to learn there is islamic terrorist mind control. i wonder how they learned of it, to use it. - masoud wrote two books, the latter published in 2014: "Masoud: Memoirs fo an Iranian Rebel" and "Destructive and Terrorists Cults: A New Kind of Slavery" - terrorism cult was heavily associated with iranian rebellion, overthrowing shah in 1979 - if cults are formed from international intrigue, blockchains would be pretty important so as to assert global information pressure that could resist government spy agencies - cult leader later tried to depose new iranian leader using their widespread support - cult had members become suicide bombers. one was used to bomb inside a mosque, and members fled the cult - cult leader was named Rajavi, ended up supporting Sadam Hussein, and lost a lot of support. these associations show parts of international alliances associated with mind control. i often worry about the great loss of information on tactics and internal information around mind control. it is actually a relief that there is so much of it, so that people can flee from one continent to another, and share information on tactics with that other nation, that the people in the nation fled to would have great difficulty learning from their local cults. "what do the mind controllers know, what are they doing, and how are they doing it" is a hugely important question. - cult leader escalated mind control, including a demonstration of marrying his close friend's wife. - victim acted as the representative of the terrorist cult at the UN and in the USA. it seems likely that them eventually escaping would inform how the mind controllers related with public bodies in the future. - the group mind control kept increasing in intensity, progressing to brainwashing which the author defined as violent and overt. one can imagine the cult leader being in a bind, being themselves requested or commanded to have their people behave in ways that do not yield consensual compliance. this may not be the case, but there is some reason for the change. forced celibacy makes one wonder what the plans for the future were. children were taken from parents and sent to "supporters in europe and america". - masoud left via back pain and an experience of slow subconscious awakening "as if from a bad dream" after 20 years. he had community outside the cult, which the author has described as the biggest factor in escape. - the cult had made a secret fake capitol where its leader was the leader of the whole country. this capital was taken by american military in 2009. - conference was held in 2014 with author and Richard Kelly of AAWA (Advocates for Awareness of Watchtower Abuses) and many others. Video is on author's website described in citation 102. the link seemed broken for me but i think i found it at https://vimeo.com/106594950 linked from https://freedomofmind.com/videos/ where there are many other videos. - website for victim of terrorist iranian cult is https://www.banisadr.info/ - the next one is a zen buddhist cult. i don't like thinking of zen buddhism as bad. i think they teach care for all living things. it is also normal to have more experienced members giving meditative guidance to newer, as far as i understand. - i'm skimming the parts of this section while copying it over and it reminds me a little of things people say about activist groups as they start breaking up. i wonder if the buddhism group was mind controlled to become a mind control group. - being mind controlled, coerced, and manipulated, to change things after telling others your plans, is a repeat experience, intense. these things are much stronger and spookier than they sound, because they are in an environment of psychological connection and control. thoughts on the the dime story: -- the author resisted it, and remembered it, both. for me, these go together better than apart. -- it is coming through years later third-hand. it may have had big impact despite being resisted. -- these experiences are so terrifying. it doesn't describe those with greater power making use of the impact to assert further power, but we see this elsewhere, for example on-list. -- it's of importance, both for resistance communities and for the individual, to celebrate resistance. this does of course also provide a reliable behavior for mind controllers to plan around. - joshs' organization is called Sorting It Out, focused on spiritual and guru cults. - i see that this story is not about the harms of zen; rather how a destructive cult pretended to be zen. still, it is hard for me to value zen as much as i used to, reading this story. - josh got to be a zen monk when he was 20, before anything funny happened in the organization - i'm imagining the practicioner who shared dharma with josh having been "graduated early" by their asian teacher, maybe due to a sense of urgency around sharing spiritual practices with the western world. i have heard of this behavior elsewhere. - the leader became ill, and the behavior mostly became cult-like after the illness started. impression was they became very stressed. the stress is also reminiscent of activist groups. - raging of confused leader was interpreted as mysterious zen teaching. this is a normal way to meditatively interpret _all_ things, but it also hides that there was a serious problem brewing. - questions without answers increased. seems possibly a pattern. (also on this list, apologies). - it became relatively obvious that the group met the normal idea of what a "cult" is - dime story: care being twisted to criticism by a trusted figure. interesting how this aligns with the figure having become very irritable. - josh now runs a media business for nonprofits. author says he believes mindfulness and meditation will foster many cult leaders. if this was indeed a psychological attack on the head of the monastary, the attacker would have won. - oh the next one is about a quaker. fun. oh, no, they became violent. oh well. - i'm skeptical of this one because the story against it catalysed with a meeting in the year 2014 :S - noticing how, when he became suspicious of the group, he was visited by people to suss him out. these kind of visits indicate things. i don't recall immediately what my visits would have been, but i think pierce asked about some things? others asked things too i think. - there doesn't seem to be a lot of clear information written here about this one, to me. website is http://laroucheplanet.info/ . it is certainly clearer when members escape and retain clear stories of harm, or were leaders. - it would have been nice to post these one a day, since i am anyway. i'll keep doing this this way though. - i suspect misuse of the word "guru" which is supposed to apply to real gurus not cult leaders ;p - thinking of how the ludicrous apocalypse meme of being lifted off the planet by space aliens, trained, and returned to rebuild in the aftermath, is very similar to the situation of people with extreme power and wealth or with value to such people, being protected from various normal cataclysms, including exotic ones. this also seems similar to genocidal cleansing. my sense is that this promise is a lie (because cult-like teachings seem so very unhealthy), but i imagine it isn't always one. - model only escaped after the leader died - model lived as if they were a dog, living with canines - very passive emotions, continuously felt at fault for being harmed, despite escaping. paragraph about escape useful for noticing mind control internally. "I was so convinced when I left Eternal Values that I was evil and cursed -- that I had failed Frederick and even mankind. I felt I was doomed to a life of tragedy for betraying the cause. But I finally got to the place where the thought occurred that maybe the way I felt was not just because of me and my endless failings, but perhaps the _group I had been involved with had something to do with it_. For years, people had been saying I was in a cult but I would never believe that. I just couldn't accept that I would ever do that. I was convinced that things like that didn't happen to people like me. I would never join a cult." - ptsd - unclear how suing the cult ended its existence, no reason to disbelieve - thinking, when you encounter a strong influence that is pretending to be god, this is a good indication of a cult. i am again thinking that i bumped into a cult. i tend to not retain this belief. note: it stopped exposing me to the god-pretending when it realised i did not like it. - the book says small and big groups can do just as much harm to individuals as big or small - discouraging that faith healing cults give a bad name to healing without medicine. ya gotta _wean off slowly and carefully and shift your life habits_, stupid dead cultists. also draws a harsh distinction between prayer and action. we need our prayers to build real creative nurturing and healing change in the world; not simply be group passion. hard to look down on group passion though. - thinking of a group of praying members convinced that a faith healed member would be resurrect being similar to dissociative delusions to handle trauma. not a normal comparison i imagine, maybe it is. - it shows the power of multi-day group ritual that the dead cultist was let die both by himself and his spouse and parents, although this isn't completely clarified. i guess people use the tools they believe to work. still, inspiration that deprogramming likely works. imagine being influenced for your own benefit by a crowd of escaped cultists experienced in diverse forms of mind control. - the story of the failed faith healing also shows how the impact of small mistakes from above can compound when an environment of extreme unthinking belief is held. - members had visions of the dead member's ressurection, showing the impact of environment on visions. [earlier, visions of escape were mentioned.] - i was thinking of how the book often said "the leader" somewhere, instead of a leader's name, and how it's probably better to anonymise victims than leaders, etc. but then i was thinking of how, if i ever mention mind control to a formal figure, i am immediately and harshly asked for who did it, without any aid to me offered. the harshness and suddenness of this question spreads the norm of cults taking power, as it is a question one learns to fear and not answer. it is likely to put somebody in a state of mind where they comply with their programming. i usually remember never to mention this. i generally assume people who ask this are influenced or inserted to support human trafficking, but this seems likely paranoia on my part, and i generally either do whatever they say, or whatever urges i experience, from the confused state of mind i get into from the question. - i was thinking about my therapist's behavior, similar to those interactions with others, and i suspect my therapist doesn't or didn't really think anything happened to me. this could explain a lot. maybe has a resource about human behavior that indicates this. - it kind of seems there are two different kinds of cults: huge world-power organisations and their arms, and small people just building small groups of personal power. either one seems to be able to coopt a real religion or such into a power-building thing. - in the upcoming section, one of the words is the same as in a jain chant i learned. i was thinking how i'm learning that chants can be impactful, and how they'd be more impactful in a language i understand. i think, for impact, it makes more sense to translate first before engaging the resonance of the origin language, if you don't know the origin language. i was also thinking it would be even better, for me personally, for me to adjust chants so that they match what i want to believe personally, at least a little bit. this way i could work with a normal religious community to rebuild my own identity and values. i think this makes sense. [some of us thoughts are considering the value of chanting phrases and things we used to value, like looking for what hasn't been noticed yet, and searching for identity, reason, and how to aid, for all the things. these old phrases and such would be nice for us.] - the next group has the initials NSA ha. here's a quote: "She, like other members, had been taught that if she ever left NSA and stopped chanting, terrible consequences would follow." - end of previous section: "If I hadn't received good counseling, I probably would have kept trying to return to the group." - Nichiren Shoshu o fAmerica owns Soka University in California. - simple chanting behavior gave incredible high. environment stimulating this not described. - the woman who left NSA spent a year motionless, believing she was dying of cancer, when she had no cancer. this anecdote could help me disbelieve that i have brain cancer. - my therapist claims to understand me well when i do not believe them to understand me. i wonder if they are messing with me, or confused. - the author spoke with a group of jehovah's witnesses who had left. i think the group i know of is likely the targeted individuals, might be other groups i'm thinking of, not sure. there are certainly different groups of TIs, many less kooky than the mainstream ones. i think my memory around this might relate to something unexpected, that isn't exactly in line. for example: his book doesn't mention mkultra yet, but there are still living survivors of mkultra to speak with. - jehovah's witnesses are raised in something called the Watchtower, Watchtower Society. jw's ban contact with ex-members and a number of books. - concept of, what do i do if i don't have a pre-cult self to go back to. reminiscent of my somewhat painful experience of either encouraging what i remember of what i used to be like or do, or submitting to the new things. relates to heavy amnesia but also other things. "I have come to believe that human beings are all born with an authentic self as well as a desire for love, fairness, truth and meaning. It is something that no group can program out of a person and tyherefore there is always hope for real healing. A subsequent chapter focuses on recovery strategies and a future book will nbe written on this subject.[110]". Also note jainism advice: soul is immortal. one can reheal and reconnect with. - author expresses level of pain associated with being shunned when leaving a group. many other things have incredible pain hardship and suffering others wouldn't expect that it would be nice for the author to share. - people who choose to leave and do not return tend to become incredibly strong. people kicked out tend to succumb to concerns such as addiction or suicide, which becomes a huge health system drain. - mental health professionals are unfamiliar with doing an intake with people exposed to cults. the author is working on a further book and training curriculum. - in TM, a victim says people were pushed to psychosis by meditating so much every day. i am skeptical that meditation in general causes psychosis, as it is a tradition of an entire culture, although I would agree that some things stimulate psychosis. i would wonder if it was being mispracticed, as it seems many other things were. many cultures do include psychotic experiences. - author describes TM as a form of self-induced trance. the author describes TM being a unique form of meditation in that a mantra is simply repeated endlessly. i might consider it to be unhealthy to enter a trance while being influenced by somebody with financial goals with regard to you. - some people become addicted to the meditative trance and are referred to as "space cadets" by other members. my mother would call me a "space cadet" when i was young, and the phrase has kept repeating for me, so it is strange to see it here. it's helpful to learn that one can induce a pleasant trance-like addiction in one's self. i wonder how long it takes. - the cults from asia seem like people (cult leaders) trying to profit off of having had introductory experiences, coopting people with deeper experience and gaining personal power to reinforce the behavior, but of course i don't know - my perception is that the issues with tm as a cult are also not made clear. i may be biased. it's confusing i guess because the meditation is not on obedience but simply a mantra word. - anti-jehovah's-witnesses site: aawa.co [i missed the anti-TM one, i'll scroll up, although few mentions of rape in tm compared to jw. anti-tm websites: tmfree.blogspot.com ginacatena.com] - i've been exposed to extremist christian communities and am liable to take fewer notes here. the victim experienced lifelong sexual abuse from multiple parties including incestuously and it was covered up by the religious community leaders with no provision for counseling. - The Watchtower is the jehovah's witness magazine. it tells readers to stay away from counseling. - curious why devout christian men are sexually abusing christian women. is this a sin or considered virtuous? - the jehovah's witness woman sorted out she wanted to leave, so had sex with somebody out of wedlock so that her husband and the group would be taken away from her. she lost contact with her entire family and community, who shunned her. - The Witness taboos going to college. - after going through college, it was gratifying to counsel others for what she had gone through - it's hard to form an unbiased opinion without inclusion of the doctrines backing the repulsive cult behaviors, but it is clear the cult behaviors are out of proportion; we need to relate with our cultures and groups so as to succeed in addressing the atrocities under them. i wonder if the child rape lawsuits mentioned are the ones one heard of in the news, or if they are different. - jw uses phobia indoctrination around armageddon. voting is also disallowed. - i'm kind of thinking there's a big unaddressed thing in the book of 'good vs evil' that maybe the author pulled in from their cult experiences. a lot of evidence backing seeing the cults as evil. this does make a ton of sense though, since people exposed to them will be trying to comprehend what is evil and what is good, so as to make decisions. - the description of the jw armageddon seems a little analogous to government breakdown - casting of freedom paths as being rooted in hatred of the organization or member provides for realization when the lack of hatred is discovered - the church of jesus christ of latter day saints is the mormons. they recruit rapidly. - some of the cultic aspects of mormonism or jehovah's witnesses seem just similar to religions in general, like treating everything of the religion as good, and letting it define what is good. it does make sense that this should align with what we know instinctively, and there would be an issue if it doesn't. - reminding myself of the importance of spreading decisions based on relevant reasons, not stimulation of what is good or bad - author says the mormon chuchgoer developed a habit of breaking commitments because it was so normal to swear to be perfect and inevitably fail and seek penance. it's of course important to make realistic promises and also pursue perfection. - the description of mormonism does not mention treatment of women. i have heard it is similar to the jehovah's witnesses. i do appreciate that they practice connection to natural ways of life. such things are very rare in our world. - anti-mormon sites: iamanexmormon.com exmormonfoundation.org - anti-scientology: youtube ToryMagoo44 , exscientologykids.com - further information on moonies in "Empereror of the Universe" docuemntary, and on freedomofmind.com which enumerates moon-owned entities, maintained by Larry Zilliox - more survivors added in future book editions - further book on sexuality and mind control hoped for. more sexual mind control in "Erasing Reason: Inside Aesthetic Realism - A Cult That Tried to Turn Queer People Straight" covers many avenues, people mind controlled to be straight or gay from the opposite, or surgically change themselves without interest in doing so. - Please come to freedom of mind facebook page and share stories. Many mind control groups are listed in the freedom of mind group database on the website.. Many also are missing, so please share your story. [i do not find facebook safe, myself.] - Hopefully survivor stories can be a whole book. These stories are like inoculations against mind control.
i am overwhelmed by a damaged worry that something i have written or such could be very wrong. please, consider facts and evidence, not the words from me, which are generally edges of confused struggles to try to remember what is sensical and real. sometimes these are important, but they are always merely ideas or imaginings, and i rarely resist my bias pressures or adjust all my bad mistakes.
- model was forced to verbalize and repeat that she had chosen the situation
- feigned enjoyment of servitude enforced
these things and similar, also secret signs present in my experiencd, alongside silence public and counseling, education lacking may stimulate displays of power to act on, to add to education and counseling, to recognise victims and understand situations, can maybe be used to track issues if nothing else
On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 6:07 AM Undiscussed Groomed for Male Slavery, One Victim of Many <gmkarl+brainwashingandfuckingupthehackerslaves@gmail.com> wrote:
[warning: dangerous:] "The more you try to understand what I am saying, the less you will never be able to understand it. Do you understand?"
Noting that this question would be interpreted differently depending on whether the listener is th8nk8ng overly logically or overly symbolically: the meanings are opposite. I found i interpreted things more and more symbolically and this caused me to be more and more manipulable. If, for example, one is very scared a serious covert threat or such may be made, then symbolic or implied information is valued much more highly. “Do you understand?” is something that might be said after communicating covertly.
ch 7 this chapter is entitled protection of the self and loved ones, but at first it seems to be describing itself as mostly about discerning what a destructive cult is, so as to avoid it, rather than what to do when one is focused on you or people you care about. maybe i am wrong. - 12 tribes is a cult started by a sideshow barker. i ran into this cult in a mental care program, where we would visit a restaurant they owned. somebody told me they were talking with a waitress who told them how important it was to give your life to men. (this, combined with the leader being a normal male rather than say a religious figure or woman, means the cult is destructive. indoctrination like that indicates women aren't given rights.). they used recruitment messaging that harkened to the freedoms of the sixties. hard to find messaging like that. i had collected some of it out of interest. - rev jim jones ordered a famous massacre in jonestown, but started as an honestly caring religious worker, dedicated to helping the poor. as he started learning and using cult techniques to gain power he became more and more deranged. the author blames amphetamines but i would influence of the people who shared the techniques: i.e. that he was actually in a larger cult of cults. i would suspect the author of being influenced to not consider or share this. - cults have methods to induce euphoria which defectors retain and can accidentally create cults with - certain personalities and behaviors have a stronger tendency to produce cults, often in feedback with an addiction to power. leaders tend to care more about power and attention than material resources. - cult leader dangerous properties: (1) psychologically unstable (2) believe own propaganda e.g. that they are god (3) surround themselves with devotees i experience invasive internal experiences around being a mind controller or such occasionally. it's interesting that i also experience strange internal pressure to have some of the cult leader traits. i wasn't aware they were associated with it. - a criminal background of a cult leader may include something similar to fraud - recommendation to run web searches may be outdated, don't know - cults may have boards of directors who simply all obey the cult leader. checking for real empowerment of members can be a good check. - cult recruitment involves deception. new information is provided when the person will have difficulty critically analysing it. things generally happen via a seemingly-unrelated front organisation. recruiting involves honing in on or stimulating potential weak spots in the recruitee[s]. communication tends to be unidirectional, such that only the recruitee reveals information about themself. rapid onboardment is preferred. - "During the indoctrination, sometimes the person doesn't contact family and friends for days or weeks. When they eventually do, a radical personality change is evident. The individual often changes his style of clothes and speech patterns and behaves in an uncharacteristically distant manner. Often, the person's sense of humor is blunted. Previous interests, hobbies and goals may be abandoned "because they are no longer important." " "This personality change does seem to wear off a bit over time, if the individual doesn't continue to contact the group or participate in it is activities. However, when the person maintains contact, the new identity can and does grow ever stronger." re humor, compare to: i experience a forced, biting humor i can't control. often people report discouragement from me laughing at their suffering when i don't understand why i am laughing at all. "A person may have been politically liberal before, but is now a staunch conservative." - "Increasing numbers of groups have deliberately avoided such practices for some time in order to allay suspicion." "In some cases, a person's behavior changes over months" "deliberately designed to undermine the new member's relationships with family and friends" heavy work encouraged in part by criticising excessive sleeping whereas praising minimal sleeping of leader. this is likely an inversion, and also part of a large cocktail of lies and "inversions" used to sustain the norms of cult membership. cult leaders and mind controllers are likely much more experienced at surprising or misleading people complexly to sustain something, than those resisting them are at using similar tactics to protect themselves. likely or possibly people doing this to resist are being manipulated, if focused on. not that true information should ever be shared with those running a cult. - norm of psychosomatic illnesses, and minimal medical care, lets cult leaders heal people personal experience - no privacy; gives power to cult - involving cult members in a long discussion of current events, art, or history, can reveal them being out of touch - members demonstrate very minimal decision-making skills, having been encouraged to ask permission for everything - forms of control vary widely - "members of destructive cults are psychological prisoners" via strong planted phobias - it is dangerous to criticise a group that has many blindly obedient members available to strike back - People's Temple was originally a ministry oriented toward helping the poor, before becoming a destructive cult - "The Center for Feeling Therapy disbanded when its leaders simply walked away one day, leaving hundreds of confused and disoriented members.[152]" strong mind control leaders disappearing is quite painful and leaves one suffering severely. the mind eventually fills in, pretending to be the leaders, to cope. - harmfulness unrelated to size of cult. the author repeatedly emphasizes the harmfulness of cults. one could guess he is still scared, possibly especially in an environment where cults are spreading messaging that counters his and his clients' experiences. = the next [i was going to write something i thought was pretty important, but a canine interrupted me and i forgot it.] but maybe i was thinking it would be good to ask the author to specify how current different information is. for example, this section is on questions you can ask recruiters. the impact of questions like these could change significantly over the years, specifically it could put you into a different handling strategy if the questions are from a mainstream anticult book, like a cracker seeing you sniff their packets. suddenly you are the most important victim to be handled with the most dangerous tools. - ask protective questions "in a very direct yet friendly manner, and demand very specific answers" i'd emphasise _friendly_, maybe as if one is interested. book says to not get caught into side conversations; to focus on the questions, and to be free to walk away. - "How long have you been involved with this group? Are you trying to recruit me into any type of organization?" if they have been involved a long time, they should have ready answers to other questions - "Can you tell me the names of all the other organizations that are affiliated with your group?" look for front groups and a principal group. May have to ask the clear, straightforward question multiple times. Ask them to find out for you, ask for their number without giving yours, tell them you'll call the next day. - When lies are revealed, be assertively annoyed and leave! - "Who is the top leader? Tell me about their background and qualifications. Do they have a criminal record?" a follow up question "how could you have become involved with a group without checking these things out first?" note: these questions may build suspicion of trusted groups, which would warrant adjusting them - legitimate groups give information before commitment - "What does your group believe? Does it believe that the ends justify the means? Is deception allowed in any circumstances?" this may reveal curiosity is being used as a motivator. legimiate groups can summarize their central beliefs. - no legitimate organization needs to lie to people in order to help them, despite any accusations of false media - "What are members expected to do once they join? Do I have to quit school or work, or donate my money and property, or cut myself off from family members and friends who might oppose my membership? What did you do for a living before you joined the group, and what do you do for a living now?" - "Is your group considered controversial by anyone? If other people are critical of it, what are their main objections?" - "How do you feel about former members of your group? Have you ever sat down to speak with a former member to find out why they left the group? If not, why not? Does your group impose restrictions on communicating with former members?" legitimate groups do not restrict contact with former members. asking for details about leaving, reasons, happier after leaving, can reveal lying about communicating with former members - "What are the three things you like least about the group and its leader?" this is supposed to be a check for mind control. those mind controlled simply to worship the leader have unique responses. the concept may be a brief shock. - "What else would you rather do in life than be a member of the group?" the wrong answer is "nothing" - "Did you take the time to talk with former members, and read crticial literature about the group, before you joined, in order to make up your own mind? Is this something you'd be willing to do now?" - ask the questions of other members too. - bring a skeptical friend and don't ever split up, leaving before splitting up - search engines are helpful but do not trust them due to disinformation efforts - IF YOU END UP IN AN INDOCTRINATION SESSION, STAND UP AND ANNOUNCE LOUDLY THAT YOU DON'T LIKE BEING MANIPULATED AND CONTROLLED. this results in swift escort out, but more importantly gives _others_ the opportunity to act on what is obvious and leave with you. - don't engage curiosity at someone else's direction unless you are comfortable being confrontational and engaging conflict aggressively. you could lose your free will for years. overconfidence is not helpful here.
ch 7 while copying into email - i disagree that coercive deprogramming would have no place,. i might say i believe all tools have a need at some obscure point. i might keep public record of incidents that went poorly so people could learn and improve. i had a difficult therapy today and notes may get either scant or again very weird while reading along - author states not aware of any deprogrammings involving beating or rape. wikipedia stated otherwise, interesting information conflict one could contribute to advancing. - cult members often do strongly dislike classic forcible deprogramming and may not forgive the deprogrammer, despite staying out of the cult - behavior of woman who rejoined and releft cult so as to comprehend deprogrammer seems thematically similar to my attempts to retain management over my memories and personal influence - reminder to self that i experienced something similar to the negative messaging regarding deprogrammers, with similarity around "what is this oh this is terrifying and evil [then slowly over years] oh this was actually the thing for _rescuing_ people" ... an element of prevention of trauma therapy and of memory reconstruction ... - Strategic Interactive Approach is deprogramming v2. involves family and frienxds working together, and lots of information. - thorough interview of family prior to engaging cult member, many questions listed in book - i would not consolidate a complete list of people contacted around the issue as mentioned, as this would produce data that could be used by the cult to re-establish thorough control if they acquired it - introduces family to other ex-members to better understand - including all family and friends eases burden of task, sharing among many I'm reading this and I have an idea for resisting disruption. You'd basically mind control each other to stay sane, forming each other's group to do so. For example, if everyone is getting irrational, you might make ritual points of reinforcing things that are clearly logical and true for everyone involved. like professor rat said the one time he said soemthing that made sense to me: "clear, rational replies help us all out the most." or similar. - for people not fully and heavily indoctrinated: non-authoritary-figure-friend asks member if they would be willing to hear a little of the other side of the story. if interested, place and time is immediately scheduled. promise is pursued to continue regardless of pressure from cult to cancel. - boston church of christ also uses "dead" term for people not in cult i'm having trouble reading the section on surprise encounters, recalling tiny events in which others have apparently planned influence of me, but never revealed this to me. - people so indoctrinated they would never agree to meet ex-members are engaged without prior explanation - surprise encounter done with family, who are prepped on how to reduce e.g. flight risk, and respect the member where they were at the surprise encounter rings of a microenvironment. the pace yields better likelihood for the member to agree to various things. this is likely rooted in some understanding of the psychology of the cult in question. it's a nice idea, the positive microenviironment. there are things i'd like to have easier to choose to do. - in the example story from early in career, the cultist held firm and agreed only to a small compromise. - cultist made comfortable, given sense of control as much as possible - related to cultist this was an opportunity to prove that he wasn't under mind control - in example, an experienced church person used bible to let cultist realise contradictions in cult it looks like the technique might work on extremists in general - evidence used to build mistrust in cult leader - commonly disliked cults described. cultist builds parallels. a lot of shock needing processing is described in the cultist. sad, the sense of a situation that doesn't seem as psychologicalyl safe as it could be. - after exposure to question-building material, cultist is not restrained from leaving, so as to build trust. if cultist leaves, information is further flowed to them in ways they would receive. - cultist considered sense of surprise encounter when asked to consider what else would hacve produced the information exchange - cultist did not express memory of the request made to talk consensually i'm thinking on how the surprise encounter approach provides for protecting the intervention approach some from being mobbed by the cult itself [i'm thinking iw would try to avoid it, but don't yet have a safe-seeming alternative thought up] - cultist wanted to spend many days figuring it out, qwithout deciding to leave nor returning it's so hard to make decisions in situations of heavy influence. so hard. - the parents worked with a mainstream church similar to the cult in order to successfully extyract the cultist, despite themselves having a very different church. the cultist joined the mainstream church. this flexibility helped it work. copying over - not everyone chooses what they think is best for them, i think that's from financial media? but most people do in the usa i think; at least, it's very encouraged to. maybe what's relevant here is that ina situation of mind control, what is best for you is very important since you use your mind to make every other decision. while reading along - 1. _demonstrate_ that cultist is in trap. 2, _show_ them they did not choose to be in a trap. 3, point out that other people in other mind control groups are trapped. 4, inform that it is possible to escape. - tends to take someone who has been in the trap to convey the message effectively. former cult leaders pretty good at this. - 1. people need and want to grow, and move toward where growth is available.. 2, peopl eneed to focus on the here and now, what they can do now, not e.g. worries. 3. people will always choose a better decision at any point in time. 4, each person is unique and each situation is different.; each member must be adapted to and understood, and held as the most important person . - understanding cult member: what do they value, what do they need, what do they want, how do they think; step inside their head and temporarily become them, to understand them and help them do what they want to do. deep down, everyone wants out. - 5, it's essential to be family-centered. everyone is affected and invovled, and can be trained to communicate as effectively as possible.. serious family problems are addressed first, which shows the cuktist that positive things happen outside the cult. - famiyl members learn: how to build rapport, trust, and plant questions. family love is stronger than cult love: supports growth rather than dependency. - never try to take the group away from the cultist or permanently remove them from the group.without their interest in this. offer paths of growth via perspecvtives and possibilities; new choices. do everything to help them feel in control. thoughts here on the power of reality-backed messaging vs influence-motivated messaging. - indoctrination suppresses the real self, which stays. the mind control virus can be cured, developing repair and bringing the self forward again. - author describes a slow flood of realizations upon "waking up" brings one to think of the ongoingness of internal habits to suppress certain ideas. similarity to my current experience. - people who would want to be in the cult are not removed from it and the intervention does not work, but such people rarely demonstrate harm that results in the need for one. but people being enslaved, when they can review fairly, prefer to make more choices of their own than fewer. - 1. focus on _process_ and _how_ change happens, not specific changes. 2, an educational approach, spreading and teaching. rescues work better at down times and poorly at positive times in the cult. author says down times are impossible to predict, but a cult would say they could craft one. - chocies after failed recsue effort: 1. back off, leave cult member in charge,offer communication when interested. 2, intervene with help of other people, energy anbd time intensive: a surprise encounter - prepping surprise encoutner is similar to cult recruitment, research them, plan an inintial deception. but the end result is empowerment. the story of rescuing the woman from The Family has pleasantness; the hsuband was offered a job interview so she would be alone from him. he was making all her decisions, and she was being used to recruit members with sex. - the interaction with the woman and her husband involved positive celebration events in the family; bought everyone new clothes, went to restaurants. no criticism of cult behavior. thinking some of my personal experiences. i attempted a naive influence of myself recently that had some impact. as i continued, and encountered more variety in my life, it faded. the internal experiences expose me to diverse stuff i respond to as i move through my dissociations, with a little similarity to how a risk is run if a cultist returns to their cult. [i had an experiencing attempting to stabilize another who had gotten influenced earlier than me, where their exposure to other things could wildly change stuff]. internally, short term memory seems releveant. it's certainly easier to manage my experiences if the interaction stays in my mind and actions. meanwhile, when i have time away, i likely will teach myself to avoid or sabotage the new influence pretty strongly. - when wife separated from husband, she was recommended to rest and got very long sleep [noting that author's cult experience involved consistent denial of sleep] {and room servic meal after, everyone staying at very nice hotel} - conversations began with topics that had been oted to stimulate parts of real identity in past this is something i've experienced done to me a little; i need communication for this, due to how i am managing my memories and experiences. i was prepped against this. - discussion then became honest-expression; family missed her crying happened here, which is a moment of psychological shift. also prepped against this. i fake-cry to cover it up somewhat regularly. - then question whether cultist was having what they wanted etc, instilling questions. story is worth read. - while wanting to visit family, but not feeling able, cultist emotionally shared parts of cult situation - again, intervention group used religious content of cult to undercut cult [it looks kind of like author retained sense of how cultist's feelings and thoughts and subconscious were moving, in order to influence some of her decisions, from experience as an indoctrinator, but he describes it] - once connection formed, described other cult experience, drew parallels, asked more questions the deprogrammer hugged the woman when she was in a shock state regarding conenction of suppressed information. i would avoid this as it could be unfair influence when soembody may be trying to sort out what is real inside themselves: but maybe freeing them from the horrible situation they are in is more important, unsure. it seems like if there is certain shared truth underneath the instilled beliefs, then continued influence there would be warranted. he was also there in the moment in order to sense what was appropriate. a question discrediting cults is whether the ends justify the means. the reason they don't, is that if you include everybody in goals that everybody would agree to anyway (e.g. world paradise as cults might pursue in their doctrines), rather than blocking information flow in and out, many many ways open up, ones that are far more efficient than the ones being justified by their ends, and there is no need to justify them, as they make good things happen already. - author describes instilling strong emotional questions in the cultist as empowering them this doesn't seem right to me, maybe from my own influence, but it makes sense the author would really bleieve this, since their career is deprogramming and is backed by a passionate personal story. the author wrote the dreams of the woman the following night, briefly. first, solitude and lostness. then with the addition of bombardment. then great peacea dn happiness. my interpretation could be that her subconscious considered it painful and rude to have the new information forced on her so much, and so confusing, but that she ended up agreeing with what she was shown for freedom. it's notable those dreams have reached all the way to this list. i can't know what dreams mean to others, just what they meat to me at one point in time. prevalence of hugs in the story indicate the family and cultist likely were big huggers women dislike long term submission, but don't necessarily speak of it - often after cultist decides to leave and says farewell to cult member, a countering cult intervention can happen thinking about how the interventions involve a group of people. this is likely much safer than an individual - an intervention was performed for the husband, after the wife left. - emotional problems present after leaving, from long-term cult involvement what an inspirational chapter. one section left. - Roy Masters is a professional hypnotist who recruits via selling meditation audiotapes that beginni indoctrination and is still doing it - also does stage exorcism, maybe he could enslave me by removing my evil spirit - author took time to describe how cultist's parents were behaving erratically, driving dog and child crazy by giving contradictory information. this made it hard to find a family draw out of the group; the group seemed better than the family. - lack of family stability and finances made it hard to figure out how to provide an environment for enjoying leaving cult - it's fruitful to engage support groups with the resources to provide a healing environment for cultist - successfuly intervention requires at least three full days of counseling ch coda - people will do anything for what they believe is truly right, but nobody wants to waste time on harmful lies - phobia against leaving is addressed, then contact with the true self is made, and the person usually chooses to leave when learning what was done to them - important for people to understand that good things happen in cults too, and these good tghings must be remembered - belonging to a destructive cult changes you forever - leaving a cult engages a time of sitting naked with oneselfe and reanalyse one's entire knowledge and beliefs. this can be liberating and terrifying. it's a new beginning. the scary moment of trancy change, when you could become anyone. deprogrammers engage it assertivelty and frequentyl. but they would know about when it is engaged for harm. i believe in deep respect being held at such times. from a well of deep respect, comes rebuilding.
ch9 noting that in nancy's letter, she specifically mentioned throwing away a garment that her friends and family knew she loved. she also specifically mentioned a very unpopular belief about the role of women, to people who knew she was a feminist. comes across as a potential serious call for help from a dangerous situation. then the way the friend succeeded in acting on it, was to find people very close to her (her family) who would also respond to the points in the letter, and simply share the letter with them: convincing by evidence, not by alarming expression. this was done covertly with regard to both nancy and the people she was involved with, and of course involved a physical letter, not e.g. email. :/ important stuff. - in the successful case, the family refrained from confronting the recruitee - in this example, the family's minister was the one to research and reach out i got confused after this section ... - the recuitee was again separated from the group for 3 days straight. their consent was asked for this first. - rarely, the minister had recently attended a workshop on cults - "playboy" magazine being absent treated as a sign of something being wrong, despite it being commonly considered a morally reprehensible magazine my opinion/experience is that situations liek that are very common, where there are things such as common moral judgement that can be used to easily deny important evidence - in successful case, the family had an existing habit of talking among each other weekly. this instinct was stronger because the family member was going through a time of stress. - recruitee started off selling magazine subscriptions as a normal job - unwise to rationally discuss controversial cult with recruitee without guidance from cult experts i would switch the order of topics in this chapter (change success->failure to failure->success) for the reader's sense of how things go after reading both. however, i am noting the initial success story helped me keep reading when it was difficult to do so. - in the second story, the family did not at first consider the increase of apparent responsibility and morality as a bad thing, until they noticed failing grades in second story, recruitee introduced family to cult members on their own thinking a little again on how, with a prevalent mainstream, it could be a little hard to discern what is a destructive cult and what is simply something different. one further idea is that most things we find our own represent our own plans in some way. - second story recruitee was previously a straight-A student, but then struggled to reach a B for multiple semesters when you use more of your mind you notice mind control more, question things more. dunno if it's related. i certainly cognitively struggle. big attribute in the failure story of defensiveness stimulated near conflict with father's discovery and opinion the mother trusted her smart son to leave the cult environment, as a coping strategy. the missing information is maybe how a pervasive information environment that develops [shared?] understanding of the cognitive timing of its members can prevent that intelligence from effectively acting. reading the second story, one can possibly see how it would come across that some demon had possessed the recruitee's family. they mysteriously and persistently developed information and focus specifically countering the teachings of the cult. they were of course simply trying to produce unbiasedness. - the father of the second recruitee, who was involved in stimulating the disconnection and accidentally strengthening the cult involvement, was a state politician - the family of the situation that went worse covered the situation up so that others had alternative explanations my understanding is that has happened around me. strong emotional reasons. - "they were very afraid of what everyone would think if they told them the truth" unsure whether that's relevant for me - book describes the choice of not immediately confronting the recruitee as a strategically advantageous position; impulsive reactions often harmful - sudden, uncharacteristic changes should be investigated quickly and thoroughly. ask questions in connecting ways. avoid wishful thinking (and also impulsive reactions). consult with friends and relatives; don't keep it hidden. - if you keep the problem hidden, you cut yourself off from a potentially huge well of practical help and emotional support. the consequences of not reaching out can be disastrous. i thnk it's important to consider deep respect here. it is incredibly safety inducing to spy on our loved ones and share gossip regarding them _if and only if_ we continue to hold them with incredibly deep respect and care, empowering their own preferences. otherwise it's creepy and can also destroy somebody's life. more first world problems i guess. my family has a habit of reaching out to and communicating with people in my community without my knowledge. gives one a desire to figure out how to have one's own interactions with others on one's own footing. a little late given my poor psychological state, but also important for safety in general. it's unique to be so frightened of somebody being stalked by loved ones who might disagree with them, and also to be so frightened of somebody being coerced to not share that they are in serious danger. i do believe that deep respect is possible. i imagine it requires a degree of transparency and trust with the person in question. - it's not safe to assume somebody would snap out of mind control themselves this can apply to the self too - if somebody may have become involved in a cult, contact their family and ask that they not talk to the person about it yet this is what the book says. it says talking can jeopardize the relationship with the recruitee. - if the situaition is handled mindfully and tactfully, the family and the recruitee will ultimately be grateful whooooooooooooooo "tell me about this freakin deprogramming cause i was mind controlled not to think it man. gimme all that you've got." - there are attorneys who litigate against cults copying things over and seeing the concept of everyone making a natural effort to get closer to the person. alongside the concept of the family talking with others, the idea of community efforts seems quite valuable. involve more people, keep it positive and cohesive. another snippet: "help me understand, because i'm confused". when relating with somebody in disagreement, this kind of expression is so important. it can help change the relation from defensiveness and aggression to one where avenues open. another snippet: many people make good points but don't follow up on them. book does not mention that this could be stimulated by cognitive dissonance sourced from the cult trying to retain their recruitee. common problems: - excessive guilt and shame from family members. not to blame. cults just scoop people up. - supporters neglect their own needs. not taking rest etc can harm both you and the recruitee. take care of the self before others. - lack of perspective. keep goals realistic. - emotional overreaction. genrally and dangerously drives people deeper into cults to get aggressivee. - condescending, confrontational direct argumentation. rational arguments don't deflect indoctrinations; and then condescension or arrogance would strengthen them. - blaming the recruitee. instead, regard as undue influence. get angry at _cult_, not _victim_. remember they are already surviving being psychologically violated by the cult itself. - if litigating, help victim firstmost, then seek counsel with a lawyer with experience with the cult - "Do everything within your power to create the necessary conditions to help the cult member _change_ and _grow_." keep in mind as constant goal. _not_ rescuing them: people leave as a natural consequence of changing and growing. - assume the person will leave the cult. figure out how to make that soon and easy. - most important part is preparation. - take care of yourself. if you break, the work does. - "identify and address everyone's concerns and emotional needs" - keep a balanced perspective; life must go on. - involve as many people as comfortable with, and educate them; invite them to workshops; contact knowledgesble experfienced people, anybody who can offer assistance. - ideas: clergy, mental health professionals, former members, families with similar experiences - people tend to be quite helpful and generous when helping members exit cults - involve people who are very close to the recruitee. if necessary, give them a mini-intervention first. - use wisely the consolidated resources. coordination, teamwork, and good commuhnication - study the group. learn how they think and operate. - the more clearly you understand mind control and the group, the more clearly you will be able to explain it to others. - keep organized files. make copies of important information to share with everyone concerned. - make copies of every letter written to the recruitee and every letter received from them, as they can become important - send regular updates to everyone involved, and ensure everyone is on the same page - engage the cult member in consistent ways, e.g. a small card every single week. - offer to always be availalble to the cult member. be an alternative to their phone if they don't have one.[? not quite sure what is meant by this sentence. i think they mean offer your phone to use via physical visit?] - seek cousnel with a good cult counselor. watch out for con artists who are actually cultists. look into their background. trust your instincts, and find somebody the recruitee would trust. - good counselors may be people who were once cult members themselves, and have a lot of experience doing what they do. - don't assume any good psychotherapist will be helpful. most have no exposure to this. - counselor: $500-$2500/day assisting former member: $100-$300/da. expenses extra. usually <=3 days. total cost usu. $5k-$30k [usd 2018]. later follow-up typically required. - advance planning usu. takes weeks to months long. - "the only way to get people permanently out of dstructive cults is to help them get back in touch with their real selves" book says this is more important than keeping them physically away from the cult. 1. building rapport and trust 2. gathering information 3. planting seeds of doubt about the cult and promoting a new perspective - building rapport and trust: don't reveal knowing they are in a cult unless they share this. don't reveal studying countercult information or contacting experts. this can breakdown trust. maintain _curious_ yet concerned posture. ask questions in non-judgement way. learn what is important to them. show approval and respect for _their_ ideals, talents, and interests. let them know you are withholding judgement on the group until you learn; but can let them know you have bad feeling you're not sure about. remind them credit for their successes goes with them more than the cult. - think of ways to build better relationship if not great yet. connections outside the cult help the person immensely. everyone should make natuyral effort to get closer, but coordinate things to seem natural. - do not send resources as these may be given over to the group. send personally-valued things that will build self and rapport. - further advice in book section: "Build Rapport and Trust" - collect valuable information: this happens once rapport is built. learn about inside of cult, and person's life. talk in person if possible, and as regularly as possible. connect one-on-one; it is very hard to make progress with more than one cult member present. - at some point, likely invited to talk with older members or leaders. do not do this, but don't reject it flat out. express trust for the individual specifically. i think the book considers associating the recruitee not knowing something with raising doubt around the group or joining it, as well suggesting that they research the information associated with its importance. - gathering information gives you and others much more to work on. intuition can be much more powerful. - _once the first two steps are accomplished_, develop skills to promote new perspective: connect around past shared experiences, but not suspiciously much freaky experience of information shared with one person coming out via suggestions of someone who seems unrelated - one or two points at a time. one thorough point better than many. - more in book section "Develop Specific Skills to Promote a New Perspective" focus i think is on stimulating doubt and/or building non-cult behaviors and connections section seems to confuse me - immediately seek out professional assistance, and immediately start planning how to help - often recruitees ask to suddenly visit for a long time, partly as a plea for help. plan for how to help them when or if this happens. this is also simply for safety. the recruiters don't let you think for yourself. my experience is a small indication in the reply can be overblown and taken as a yes or no when it just a hesitation, as well.
it’s very hard to think about things that heavily deny and are practiced at handling the reason for thinking about them
ch10 keys to unlocking mind control: [everyone wants to be a mind controller!] [it's a way to get cultists interested in deprogramming. it's honorable to be a leader.] The first three are most important. 1, Build rapport and trust 2. Use goal-oriented communication 3. Develop models of identity. The remaining five carry rescue efforts to conclusion. 4. Access the pre-cult (authentic) identity. 5. Help the cult member to look at reality from many different perspectives. 6. Sidestep the thought-stopping process by giving information in an indirect way. [this sounds like a really kind, needed, understanding thing for some of those topics, not others] 7. Help them visualize a happy future outside the cult. 8. Offer the cult member concrete definitions of mind control and specific characteristics of a destructive cult. 1. Rapport and trust. - nonverbal rapport and verbal rapport both important - mirror body language of cultist - use non-judgmental tone of voice and question choice - avoid judgemental statements - anybody can learn this, and it can take effort to do so 2. Goal-oriented communication - like how businesses communicate, to influence behaviors i bet there are also approaches to influence behavior that don't rely on this, although i see it wouldn't always be harmful when coming from a place of deep empathy - the goal is to help the person think for themselves, and then to leave a cult if it is destructive - learn about both the mind controlled personality and the real person underneath, if possible - build trust and rapport, and then help the cult member begin to question, investigate, and think for themselves. i don't see the similarity to business communication. i often experience businessy people avoiding concepts that result in behaviors they don't desire, even if these concepts are subtly embedded in what they are relating, such as reasons and feelings, or parts of rational logic, or heavily focusing on the good-and-bad-ness of words that relate to certain behaviors, denying synonyms or enforcing synonyms that have the desired polarity, as if value relates to truth and falsehood. 3. Models of Identity Three models/mindsets: - 1. Who the person was before they joined - how they thought about the important parts of their life - 2. A typical cult member of that group. - shows members' views of reality - people should do roleplays with former cult members - everybody should learn to both act like a cult member, and interact well with a cult member [NOTE: my experience happened during Obama rather than Trump or Biden, and was a political target with unique properties. things have changed significantly. {{{i wrote this before realising how different i was: i would guess the biggest changes would be greater effort to suppress the true self, and to make things come across as legitimate in various ways, and to make it much harder to detect. very confused about it now after writing those, could be quite wrong. i might also expect that things would be much more personalized toward individuals.}}} {{basically, things were somewhat gaining experience from how things went, and i went really poorly, so whatever experience was gained from that}}] [i'm remembering there are actually specific differences i'm aware of. things that i hold consciously that shifted to a different part of things so as to function better, maybe like denial, silence, and punishment. i had extended sustained terror to influence me: i infer not everyone has and/or is aware of this, but might instead have more of a behavioral economy situation (i get this if i do that). something got _really_ good at stimulating amnesia. messaging was delivered via social media algorithms and physical groups, and differed between different people.] {when i say things like this, i'm mostly resisting habitual silence for practice. the things that come out can be wrong, as they are mostly focused on learning to come out at all rather than accuracy.} - 3. The specific person in the cult, as they are now. - contrasting this with the real self and the generic cult member gives a picture of the person's identity, and how to identify which identity they are within - many members continue to try hard to fight off the cult identity. takes good rapport to learn. [the author describes a cult that enforces vegetarianism. sad around the example; i often eat vegetarian.] - learn all 3 models as best as one can, before engaging the cultist
- then, when with cultist, refine all the models via specific questions [note: i imagine this could be somewhat revealing of the effort if the cultist is prepared] - imagine the self as the person being counseled. immerse oneself in their reality, while talking with them - switch back and forth in one's head: try to predict their responses before they make them. keep refining this, until the cult personality model is accurate - once one can really become the specific cultist, then one can figure out how to help them regain control over their life. [it's nice how the validity of producing deep understanding of somebody here has inherent value around influencing them.] [this model would work via automated influence too. the validity stands somewhat, where people who care a lot could produce better automated models if free and invested to do so, but quite not as much since automation unless deprogrammers share their work more effectively and get comparable or better trained professionals to do it: which can happen given funding and knowledge exposure.][just guesses of course. i'd love to make a hobby model to try to deprogram myself a little.. this is the description prior to and of "become"ing the cultist from key 3 near the start of chapter 10.] {{i have semi-mysterious belief in a cult-like influence that is prepared for automatic deprogramming, that stays and regains control. possibly relates to technology compromise and systemic corruption. my investment is a need to defend honest, all-inclusive altruism and natural living. i have no beef with capitalism if it separates from mind control and harm.}}{{guesses again.}} - the person's real identity is the one that shows the way: what keys to use, where to find them, and the order to use them in. example 1: divine light mission - deprogrammer noticed brochures, asked cultist how long they were involved - asked how old he was when he got involved, as if an innocent old friend - exchanged names. cultist got a little bewildered. - starting with saying their name, asked what they were doing at that time in life, saying curious why people do things - asked if there was anything else, left space for cultist to talk more about old personality - cultist found happy memory, shifted some - asked for favorite around historic interest to open personality more. kept asking for more details that cultist responded well to. [i have extensive patterning around "what's your favorite"] - shared personal similarities around past passions, to build connection - the cultist shared they liked the "independent spirit" of their old dog. deprogrammer then asked about this in general (maybe this is goal-oriented communication): admiration of people who stand up and do what is right - the goal around the probe was to empower the cultist, reminding him of qualities from his past - cultist got subtly self-defensive (against the cult) when reminded of this past passion - deprogrammer then asked what got cultist involved in cult. cultist got sad, deprogrammer made voice upbeat and asked for explanation. - cultist entered via introduction from their romantic partner - deprogrammer asked the year of recruitment - asked first opinion of cult leader. cultist responded with indoctrination, with touch of sarcasm. [imagining sarcasm indicating nonconsensual influence: learning to lie] - asked if cultist was at a big meeting. shows that deprogrammer learned of big meerting. - asked what happened to romantic partner. cultist and partner had been separated when entered cult. 4 years old. [i recall i was exposed to multiple people who seemed to say they were separated from their romantic partners and didn't know how to see them again. some of these people were trying to engage me in romance, against my preference.] - the last contact with ex-partner was information that they had left the group [the person who left on their own was female. this is mentioned because many people would consider sexual and/or physical abuse, which can stimulate people leaving religious groups they believe in, which is just an emotionally intense possibility.] - deprogrammer asked cultist why ex-partner said they left. cultist encountered amnesia around a valued connection, in context of expressing value of independence. - deprogrammer asked for confirmation that cultist never asked ex-partner why they left. may have given cultist a look of knowing what was going on. - then gave direct eye contact and a longer influencing dialogue, about different behavior a normal person would have. did not mention normality. effectively pointed out obviousness that the two valued each other, at same time as what a normal behavior would be acting on that. - paused for gary to process, then suggested contacting the person - cultist acknowledge receipt of the value of contacting them, and expressed understanding that they realised they could do this. - it was a brief random interaction, and farewells were said when time ran out, only a few minutes! - during few minutes: established rapport, collected valuable information about the cultist, and used this information to plant a seed of possibly moving a little away from the cult. [note: seems it would be helpful to gain contact information and follow up with people in some way, maybe ideally connect them with each other a little.] - required curious, interested tone, rather than threatening or condescending - quickly determined gary wasn't enthusiastic, related to how long involved [it seems here like the author makes a stronger differentation between in-cult and out-of-cult identities than some might make. it's notable the author has been exposed to cults of a wide variety of intensities.] {{it's a little confusing considering how to briefly engage somebody with the goal of influencing them. my experience is that part of me learned to fight this: and brief things without continued followup and communication about what was going on would then expose my real identity to the part of me suppressing it, giving that part more skill and knowledge to do so.}} <==== {{{{i also experienced practicing doing this}}}} - other than above concern of mine, accessing real identity considered valued - reality testing strategy: "if you had known [during recruitment] what you know now, would you have made the same decision?" this cultist's answer appeared likely to have been "no" - author said was stunned that recruiter had left group [wondering if revealing this indicates cultist was considering it themselves already] second example: author's experience leaving a cult - over entire cult involvement, moments when the cult was doubted or questioned or the framework thought outside of, ended up being significant during deprogramming - a fundraising target had asked about the fundraising - non-cultist noticed cultist was overheated in sun, offered a cold drink inside coffee shop - cultist engaged conflict between real religious teachings used by the cult, and teachings of the cult, and was brought into a shop to have water maybe cultist was influenced due to real overheating. - non-cultist used logical reason to accept water: can fundraise stronger when hydrated - cultist experienced strong physical relief in the air-conditioned shop. they were likely clearly and visibly experiencing heat exhaustion. - non-cultist asked cultist about self in open-ended manner. cultist responded about pre-cult self. - non-cultist expressed having same religion as pre-cult cultist, connecting. - cultist happened to also be recruiter, and chose to spend more time with non-cultist due to recruitment opportunity - non-cultist got cultist to do most of the talking {{i'm possibly guessing arpspoof severely struggles to read the cult book, and wants help, given the placement of their replies in my threads.}} - the conversation stimulating very strong longing for the life prior to the cult - the non-cultist stayed with the cultist until the cultist called home in his presence - cultist complied so that cult would look good, bad to not have members contact home - cultist experienced emotion of non-cultist being like a loved grandfather - non-cultist put dime in phone himself i have trouble guiding my body around conflicted behaviors. so doing things can move them forward. - experience stimulated intense confusion in cultist. did not fundraise for rest of day. engaged counseling with cult superior. - cultist worked on further days to intentionally dissociate from the experience using cult techniques, to improve cult behaviors, and forgot it until their deprogramming third example: full-scale intervention, hare krishna [there's a missing period at the end of a paragraph in this section, somehow seems jarring] regarding the hare krishnas, i worry again there could be conflation between the destructiveness of a cult and the differences of a foreign culture. our mainstream culture denies karma and the "non-physical" (i see these as words for real patterns of influence, and a differing definition of identity), which is quite serious in other cultures. -> the book instructs us to note what we agree or disagree with. it is quite common for those exposed to cult-like groups to have severely different beliefs. i wrote this line to cope with an internal experience planning to separate me from the book author. i'm thinking of distant influence, which i was heavily exposed to, and noting it happening to the book author in the reduction of the presence of the Moonies in the media. this could be an effort to discourage the author, as they use their experience with the Moonies to teach and explain. - cultist was recruited after tragedy of brother's death in a car accident. was contemplating suicide. - cultist occasionally visited family, and deprogrammer was introduced as family counselor. played this role, spending time with cultist. - cultist had adopted new name. deprogrammer used old, book says this is best. humans need to be involved in the choice of what name to use with them. how would you like it if i called you by somebody else's name, or a name associated with stimulating danger? seems kind of important. people on the run would be more likely to get involved in cults. i see how it reconnects with the past identity. it seems like giving an excuse could briefly work there. - asked about relation with siblings, feelings when visiting home - expanded conversation around feelings of discomfort at the difference between home and cult - focused on positive feelings - stimulated suspicion, asking about brother's death. coudl explain given was a therapist. - cultist demonstrated using cult techniques to block painful thoughts of brother, handling accessing concept. more of what i described as 'intentional dissociation'. here i lost some notes when my system mysteriously powercycled. i am having a feeling of amnesia. i am going back to this point and re-engaging. i've connected a backup power source to this device. (i use DC power so it just connects in parallel). - deprogrammer gave cultist space. cultist spoke honestly a smidge. asked about when brother was alive, what enjoyed. cultist lit up. last read, i got the impression that the cultist was very discouraged, still, from brother's death. didn't feel anthing was possible other than cult. may have helped open up more about it: still might love to discover an option. - found parts of dead brother's personality that could help. brother liked investigative journalism. - asked cultist about past life, interests. had cultist imagine a life that had gone better, how it would go, visualise it in detail. cultist enjoyed. - asked cultist what dead brother would think if saw in cult. stimulated intense sobs. gave space. - deprogrammer got pushy: asked what would say to dead brother to explain. disrespectful approach of using emotional opening to ifnluence without respecting and supporting emotional healing. easy to make mistake, have made myself, not a deprogrammer myself though. - let cultist think more of the question, despite rejection still seems the wrong choice to me, regarding the subtle respect thing. - asked to think of parents views, when brother died. imagined what it was like for each parent. - then moved imagination to what parents would think of other son's changes. again, goal-oriented communication leaves out the recipient. - cultist confirmed parents would dislike strongly - gave time for cultist to consider this - then, asked about recruitment. emotions building the initial connection. common situation of feeling completely lost and connecting with any supports available; often ones that have other motives. - recruiter had solutions to death that came from cult religion (karma, non-material reality). seems like normal religious sharing about the meaning of death, the amount that is shared. - deprogrammer pointed out recruiter gave explanation that reduced fear and confusion. cultist also pointed out reduced guilt. - deprogrammer realised needed to provide alternate explanation for how to process the death in other sessions, he has let the cultist retain beliefs, too, but separate them from cult; i imagine both work - deprogrammer showed that accepting guilt for death was not logically consistent, by considering other examples. showed guilt over death was not realistic. asked around other possibilities that could have explained death. did not phase cultist. - asked what brother would have thought if roles reversed, author says that idea opened cultist up - cultist seemed maybe to pick up that deprogrammer was anti-cult, and asked them about cult - deprogrammer was hesiitent to reply to cult question - explained their own cult experience, maybe focusing on similarity and normativity. kept answering questions. described portions that involved severe suffering. deprogrammer associated believing in a spirit world with being in a destructive cult. maybe the family paying was atheist. - deprogrammer explained actual beliefs of their cult. cultist was shocked around beliefs. - explained basic cult techniques shared by both cults, to sustain beliefs and behaviors, by sharing general things that happened in their cult. author cites their own experiences more densely than other things. i wonder if they were over exposed to skepticism around them, maybe to influence them in ways like this. [later i see them citing other cults here. they are likely making citations so as to help demonstrate reality to people exposed to indoctrination.] - deprogrammer asked cultist to imagine what it was like in deprogrammer's cult. despite shock, cultist finds it easy. - cultist asked how deprogrammer got out. very curious how deprogrammer decided to leave. this also gives them more information on what they are going through right now, with the deprogrammer. - deprogrammer explained their own deprogramming, including exposure to former members and how the real religion compared to the in-cult religion - moved conversation toward expression of factually-stated negative opinions around destructive cult behaviors and experiences within cults, both in general and personal doing this successfully implies deprogrammer was attending well to cultist's responses and where they were at - deprogrammer shared how during counseling, they remembered moments they had questioned the cult, and how thought-stopping had prevented accessing these oh these things are nice, and surprising/scary. sometimes i notice the contradictions. very hard to remember. like, why is arpspoof using other people's names now? and where are these other people? and why don't i look at the email headers or network traffic to see what is happening in more detail, or act on these things in some other way? reading many of these deprogrammings (i lost my place here and had to refind it), i see how there is a blurring between what the cultist believes and wants, and what they say and do: the author describes this is a past and current identity, and explains that part of a cultist always wants to leave; but it seems to me like a lot is left out: that the cultist may not feel free to communicate, even after the deprogramming. may not be sure what is safe to say. i think it hides whether there is punitive coercion vs positive support in many of the cultic areas. and i think it would leave cultists with confused memories where they don't have full skills to express parts of things important to them. i think some of these things strongly. holding two disparate beliefs in very intense, dissociated ways can be very difficult, but it leaves one with important visceral experiences that are both guiding the cult and you -- and living with these experiences, they become how you think and store your memories and ideas and daydreams. the context in which everything happens: in which you plan your thoughts and actions, and in which you communicate. retaining this real personal experience seems important for learning about cults, and giving people strong healing, to me. just ideas. on this list i've had an overdone habit of post with a personality of challenging information as if i had authority on it, so stuff like the above obviously happens. but also writing disparate opinions helps me retain my own thoughts when exposed to those of other people. - deprogrammer shared how they realised they were seriously unhappy in cult - extensive further conversation - cultist wanted to think to themselves i associated this with pushiness of deprogrammer. i imagine change can take pushing (at least nowadays). - deprogrammer then engaged in family counseling. phil agreed to learn more and stay for days, talking to former members. many people visited. resolving conflict in family helped cultist leave. - cultist shifted life to engage the one they came up with and expressed as a wonderful dream during the deprogramming. which is really wonderful and touching, and may make it somewhat clear the deprogrammer wants to support the cultist and may show validity of trust to the cultist, despite any strong influence - built rapport with cultist, used goal-oriented communication, and developed models of identity. deliberately tried to get cultist to look at situation from different perspective. then intentionally applied "keys" to remaining "locks" of the mind control, and received positive response. - author says keys can often reach into deepest levels of a person, beneath mind control virus, into hardware of real self - author describes intense sobbing as key. says changes keys unlock can be profound. note from farther ahead: author says cultist could be punishing self for sin of being involved in group. shows some inclusion of possibility that cultist learned not to talk. - also, author says dead brother did not like organised religion. explains casting spirit as negative. - also, dead brother was a twin. explains intensity. 4. Connect them to their real identity - remembering identity prior to cult re-anchors to that experience - provides for an environment where the decisions of recruitment can be analysed without the recruiter influencing them - almost always uncovers unaddressed doubts or questions - precult personality reveals what person needs to see, hear, feel, to walk away - this may be background of cult leader, contradictions in doctrine, misinterpretion of religious texts. leader's expressions may reveal contradictions in background. - "How will you know when it's time for you to leave the group?" -- look for bottom-line criterion that would cause this ha. tell us how. then we do it. not intuitive. can be a huge change. i probably was exposed to this happening not for my benefit. - if individual was not well right before joining group, a positive reference point must be found for having made the alternate choice, such as a real experience, or an imagined one. "what would it have been like if things went great?" 5. Stimulate many different perspectives just thinking of this phrase, it sounds _so_ helpful. it is so easy to just have the same thing over and over and over. figuring out how to consider multiple things is a strategy i have to try to struggle to heal my cognition a little. it's very hard. - by perspectives, the views of human beings on cult-related things appears to be meant here - dramatic shift in example 3 cultist, when dead brother's perspective imagined. then raised parents' perspectives - also quite valuable to return to the experience of recruitment. shows the cultist's other viewpoints that happened around it, as well. - "each time a cult member takes a different perspective, the cult's hold on them is weakened" - imagining future, both in cult and outside - asking how devoted cultist would behave if they were leader. often the cultist would be altruistic, but the leader is opulent. it soudns like this is an indication of a destructive cult. i'm thinking here of how there's some reveal that deprogrammers may be struggling it must be a little obvious, after being in a cult, that one could start one's own cult to focus on producing real good in the world such things must exist, no? i wonder what good examples would be. but it doesn't sound like they have succeeded quite yet in stopping destructive cults. it seems valuable to ask people why this hasn't happened, or for parts of why that they might have ease around sharing. crowds of people driven by passion, familiar with living with none, and familiar with working to build very powerful organisations? - the alternate perspective of imagining being in another cult severely alters the experience of being in the current cult 6. Sidestep thought-stopping by indirectly giving info - cultists learn to reject negative thoughts regarding the group or its leader - this relies on the cultist judging or realising that something is negative - hence, this can be simply sidestepped by avoiding attacking the group or its leader - for example, talk about a different cult than theirs it is crazy to imagine something doing this. my experience is that people practically specifically try to engage the things one avoids, over and over and over again. of course it is half perception. i think we learn to talk that way, too. it can really seem to build a need to lie, to figure out how to communicate. i also learn to talk in ways that others respond to by stimulating these. - build frames of reference that provide tools for thinking about what happened to them - note: in the third example, the deprogrammer _never_ attacked the cultist's cult. 7. Help visualize a happy future outside - author says phobia indoctrination (terror influence, or here more terror messaging influence) is unconscious. cultist imagines being happy in cult. - visualise really enjoyable picture of future, then step in and enjoy it. in a way the cultist likes. - opens door out; begins dismantling indoctrination - "if you had never met the group, and you were doing exactly what you wanted to be doing, what would you be doing?" usually have to repeat it several times "really, just imagine ... n" - develop emotional involvement in the fantasy - neutralises negative fears about doing things outside the cult. cultist can realise there is life outside cult that doesn't produce the cult's disaster story. - can open many possibilities, connecting with loved ones, etc. reconnects some to reality - can open being in cult as a decision the cultist could make or not make 8. describe mind control and cults - cultists need specific information about cults and mind control, to comprehend it - can take rapport and/or other things - in third example, deprogrammer did this via explaining their own experience - chinese communists in the 1950s engaged in the process of brainwashing that is repeated in cults today. there are over 3000 destructive cults, that all share similar authoritarian structures. leaders lie to their cultists, teaching things that are contradictary. - intertwined stimulating questions with descriptions - experience of being in a cult, and of leaving one. descriptions of doctrine show the similar extremeness of cults. - author spends time redescribing their own experience with certain focuses. shows this is valuable. hard to do this today.
ch 11 i'd kind of like to be less crazy or delusion when taking notes but often the crazy or delusion parts help me grasp things i have a lot of amnesia or blocking or such near i'm not sure, but the idea's been rising in me this chapter really looks like it defends the concept of psychoses developing as a result of normal mind control i imagine this not being generally considered would be because few professionals are trained about cultic influence the device i'm using to do this is glitching heavily today, which may slow me further it just erased my draft on its own. luckily it was just a copy of the book text. i'm sending this now to defend against device glitches, something i have fear of today.
i'm thinkiing a workable strategy to reduce my fear of device glitches could be to make two parallel drafts. that way if one is suddenly deleted, the other would still be there. it looks like a crack in a touchscreen may be causes touches distant from where my finger is. nice to have a possible explanation.
i discarded another one somehow. this time i have a backup! when you try to visit a discarded draft by hitting back, gmail says "temporary error (404)" and "your account is temporarily unavailable." when gmail tells you your account is unavailable, it may just mean that you are visiting a subdirectory that returned a 404. i found an old bluetooth keyboard which is helping me handle the glitchiness ch 11 - 3 ways people leave mind control groups - walking out - being kicked out (often in a very poor human state) - counseled out - most former members are walkouts without counseling - indoctrinated habits can remain, which can be mysterious to those who hold them in book, author says it is rare to have a social situation which leads to a breakthrough about phobia indoctrination. this seems so surprising to me, both from personal experiences, and when later in the chapter the author describes how triggers are everywhere for years. it seems so very important to me to probably protect and engage such things. - people leave because they get shocked from a doctrine exposure,, often due to recruiter mistake or because they engage internal conflicts, such as an unpleasant superior or a contradiction, or after being raised in the cult and then connecting with the outside world such as via public school - despite leaving, walkouts may still believe the doctrine, not knowing that the doctrine and situations come from the same source - people are kicked out because they ask many questions or become very injured in some way or a liability in some other way - kickouts are in the worst shape, and feel severely rejected, including by god - may have lost all their possessions, and social and family and various support systems, to the cult - phobic toward the non-cult world - kickouts commit suicide, and research on this is badly needed - survivors may be diagnosed with schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, or borderline personality disorder - acute psychosis is usually from cult mind control, as cults rarely recruit people hard to influence a man was programmed to believe that leaving meant instant insanity. after being kicked out, he did go crazy as happens when kicked out, and was diagnosed with schizophrenia. this lived experience reinforced the belief. can actually get driven crazy aggressively, as many on this list have likely experienced. it is hard for somebody locked in a hospital while experiencing wonky stuff, to file a lawsuit etc. the man was banging his head against the wall because he had learned in his cult that this was an approach for self improvement. the hospital did not interview him for reasons, which appears very normal. - cult conditioning is reinforced when cultg jargon is repeated internally, cult practices followed, or cult teachings thought about uncritically i've noticed it's not that the teaching are necessarily all wrong, but that the indoctrination happens in their engvironment, so believing them gives strong-rooted bad habits a foothold in the mind - institutional medical environments have encouraged clients to return to cults it's somewhat discouraging how little writing time that gets [i've been coping with amnesia writing notes. i didn't manage to preserve the rest of this line.] anyway, the fact that doctors and caseworkers were encouraging this guy to return to his guru cult seems quite strange, and the tone of the author seems that he may be simply sharing shock regarding this particular part, rather than talking about its workings and how to engage it. is it bribery? are they cult membes? is it mind control / do they even remember the relations afterward or realise what they are saying? often in institutions i've had people say they were told some things by a larger formal body, or from a training resource. i've also gotten a lot of very sharp dense coincidences around social networks and such. a cult member complained their "spiritual body was disintegrating". having experienced similar unpleasantness, i'm relating that spiritual experiences are just that: experiences. when one's experiences go away or change, this is quite frightening, especially if one relied on them as a core aspect of one's life and has never heard of them changing from any cause. i'm just talking about when things feel special, important, sacred, intuitive, etc. just feelings and ways of finding creativity and such. - suffering is prolonged when walkouts or kickouts do not receive specialized counseling. not understanding mind control reduces the fullness of their lives, and a risk is run that their experiences can burst back. - without counseling, the cult mindset can return after many years, with the right trigger these things seem really similar to me to the experiences of the targeted individuals. i might tentatively-but-confidently describe the targeted individual community as one of people who have been aggressively rejected by cults. - further efforts to train professionals are needed - a cult recovery sensitivity and training program was given in 2014 associated with a psychiatrist - kickouts are the second-largest group of ex-members - those counseled out of cults are the smallest group i'm sending this so as to not lose it today while concerned around device glitches.
- the website has informational videos for professionals - people counseled out have help and information - they may still have psychological challenges they are working through, especially if they were deprogrammed, which itself can cause ptsd - people who were exit-counseled and voluntarily engaged in intervention do better the author may be distinguishing between their approach and competing approaches. - regardless, full recovery takes time and good support, including understanding of mind control from family and friends - today, much more is known about undue influence and cults, and there are many more professional cult counselors who are former members - unfortunately ex-members tend to turn to therapists who are not aware of mind control. this is quite unethical. - a therapist should make an accurate diagnosis by doing a thorough interview, then refer the client to a professional with the proper training. i start disagreeing around the interview, as interviews have triggered me, and it makes sense it would trigger anybody who else who was influenced to not discuss something. but i am not aware of what interviewing approach is taught here. i also appreciate it when people don't avoid important things (which can extend for months and years), it's just hard to respond rationally and relevantly. - most common psychological difficulty is depression, especially for the first few months after leaving a cult - pain of realizing one was deeply enslaved by what one trusted more than anything, and lost decades of a potential life, is severe many ex-members have no spouse, partner, children, education, relationships with relatives, or friends. this sounds discouraging, but if one is in those situations themselves, it means there are many other people in a similar situation probably also looking for the roles to be filled. i would like to request of the organisation that they provide channels for people to connect via. i am not really in contact with them quite yet. - strong sense of personal violation. people identify with the concept of rape whether or not they experienced literal sexual rape. in the TI community people also identify with rape, whether or not literal and sexual. - because of the intense depression, recently-ex-members can come across as very negative, seeing only the bad - former members need to acknowledge and work through their paint, and go through the necessary grieving period - it seems to help ex-members to realise that some positive things came out of their involvement, and they are or can be much stronger because of their experiences - it can help to encourage ex-members to put their experience in a manageable and hopeful perspective - there are almost always examples of ex-members with worse experiences, who then thrived - ex-members also demonstrate the problem of learned helplessness, depending on others for basic things like decisions. this is bad, notably producing low self-esteem and undermining healthy personal development in my opinion, this also makes a funny rescue situation. if somebody becomes dependent on you, this both means they can be easy to influence, and that things can go haywire if you disappear or if there is something important you are unaware of. kinda big thing! it also can sometimes seem a little silly to tell somebody in an obedient trance to thnik for themselves. this is somewhat possible, but during such an experience if used to strong influence there may be little to base a decision on, and it could be a pretty important situation. i always say: if somebody's being enslaved, it's our duty to be the person doing it, so we can free them. could relate to me being a little braindead. not something i still consider personally doable. this group of writing seems more crazy than most i've written here. regarding the author's personal experience of demonstrating decision making ability when leaving, it's notable how this engages that there are so many experiences out there, and it's so hard to engage cult recovery, that there are a lot of gross summaries that are not individually accurate. this is harder in an environment where cults are trying to counter-message recovery information. - decision making becomes easier with practice. people learn to resume control over their lives. gently and firmly instructing ex-members to make their own minds up can speed this up. bolstering the ex-member's self-esteem and confidence, dependency issues are usually overcome. - "floating" is when the cult identity returns after a long time away i describe this as flashbacks. - triggered by being exposed to something that was present during conditioning - popular music is often used for indoctrination i was sad to learn the latest "stranger things" movie had a song as a main thematic component, after my own exposure to the use of music to anchor memories with a trance. i have not seen it myself, but it is so common to see the media depicitions of things support the slavers rather than the escapees, that i am hesitant to watch it. the thing with music, is that a simple phone call, payment, or compromised system, can cause it to play somewhere, triggering a state in anybody within earshot. it also produces states randomly at a great distance. i hope the movie addresses the dangers of music feeling "special"; it was great to see some other things it talked about. but it is obviously a pop-media work, and the real ongoing stories are much more important. still, people watch those movies, and think about what is in them. maybe things that deserve real specialness are things that are personal, not things from massive pop culture. things that represent real unique moments in our shared lives. i mean music is great but i heard a song played a special role in that movie and i was worried and paranoid. - condition process part flashbacks are called "floating" the author describes their own floating. i wonder how it feels to them. i guess it would be however they were feeling when the events they float to, happened. i experienced really incredible urgency, and i guess i've read that's common in cults. urgency can be really intense. i failed to act on a lot of my urgency. i really want to understand it. one thing i experienced was attempts to disrupt some of my floating, maybe so i would know less about the group and what they were doing. this is pretty unpleasant. it does indeed change the experience but it also changes who i am. i'm still quite upset about this, but i've gotten somewhat good at bantering with people or things that are repeating warped variations of things that trigger me. for triggers that aren't too severe. this is the end of the section i posted so i'll send this to defend against glitches and work on getting the next text over.
i'm noting how the use of Moon's last name connects with people's connection to nature. People already have feelings for the moon, and after the cult they associate those feelings with the cult leader. similar to pop music: elements from common experience that remind one of the cult. the experiences described of untreated floating are things i have had a lot. it's nice for this chapter to make things make sense. i called the group but got voicemail again. i have some ways to move things forward, but the ones i'm used to take time. the author gives instructions on how to float (still copying not reading yet, so just getting bits here and there). i'm scared because of the overlap with my amnesia. i want to hide the instructions from myself. i need my memories, which includes those of my experiences. one question idea is "what if all my experiences are floating. all of them." sometimes it seems this way, sometiems i can't imagine it being true at all. still a useful question. barf the author wants us to mutate our own feeling-memoreis. barf. but i guess there are some i would want to mutate. really strong undesired ones that don't reflect reality. the way to mutate is to deliberately call forth the trigger and make a new positive mental association. from what i've learned of myself now, i think it would help me to describe the intention verbally internally as i do it. i'd also want to wear a high quality eeg device during it, of course, and preserve the recordings it takes of it. i like how the author's new association is simply something that is rational and true. this is similar to how i used to defuse or rewire psychotic-like experiences. draft went away again sending this to defend against furtther glitches
having lost this draft means copying over again all the material i don't want to see. but there are positive aspects too. rewiring a floating requires first identifying the stimulus and may involve weeks of continuous work i don't like it. these experiences are full of rare information on cults. at least like videtape yourself while doing it or something. a common thing people say about thinking is that you can't "not" think about something -- that trying to avoid something causes thinking of it. you can actually not think of something, by focusing strongly on other things, especially very emotional things or even things so intense that your response to them is to forget or dissociate. you can learn to intentionally not think of, or forget, things, and this is pretty impactful. i think i shared that skill or something. author says the mind is like a muscle. can learn to do things it has unlearned. [also mentioned going through old documents to rebuild memories of self; again please don't force this on me when i am not ready. i have part of me that tries to mutate my memories to thoroughly hide my indoctrination experience, and this part of me is used to disrespecting who i really am.] this is really hard to stay sane for. i am not sure that publicly reading this book is the right approach, and i don't know what would keep it going privately. i'm having a lot of numbing and am sad about the memories and feelings that seem to be shrinking in me. one topic wasn't written. another here is the concept of number one priority of ex members ends up being rescuing friends who were in the group. barf, start by writing down your entire experience. what a way to have convulsions and amnesia and get a psychotic break. he does go through and describe it. i copied it over. i'll send this and get back to notes.
- floating continues for _at least_ a year after being in a cult with repetitive trance or other mind-numbing behavior it's interesting he describes this as "mind numbing". there's a very tangible state one gets into, when things are learned and trusted much more readily. - practices from years ago can suddenly recur from floating, even before the ex-member realises. they can leave orientation of whatever they are currently doing. - floating can cause return to the group if not properly understood and responded to, but is rarely a problem when good cult counseling is received - floating can be terrifying if one is unaware of mind control, producing states of mind commonly described as psychotic or schizophrenic - when things are given associations that relate to the past experience rather than what is likely in the moment, this is "floating". - when floating, remind yourself that it has been triggered by a stimulus and that it will pass. if you can, try to connect as soon as possible with some who understands mind control, and talk it over rationally with them. - identifying floating triggers is the most powerful and effective technique - it's usually a sensory experience that has similarity to the past - once you know the trigger, you can deliberately call it forth and make a new positive mental association, something non-cult-related. do this over and over again, until the new associated response is learned. - new associations don't need to specifically counter the old ones; they can simply be rational associations, or they can counter them with messaging that is still relevant for you when held alone. i'm imagining the 'floaty" part of the experience being used to associate the new response more strongly than it mgiht be otherwise. the reassociation example took 1 week, not many weeks. it's quite discouraging to have one's memories change. - exposure techniques for reassociating are very fast the second example was a few days rather than a week. it involved visiting a physical beach, unrelated to the indoctrination but having a similarity causing avoidance, once the reassociation was begun. - floating is a natural byproduct of subjection to mind control, it will decrease over time if the reassociation technique is practiced. internally, floating seems to me to have many tangible emotional parts that clearly relate with gross structures of the brain (because the states ar so emotional and simple). for me, it relates strongly to parts of memory, and i would guess how it is handled can significantly impact one's cognition. i see it as an injury in part of my mind that needs gentle understanding care for my mind to return to wellness. i might note that the author's long term floating experience related to a self-induced many-day behavior they engaged in right before their deprogramming. given this was induced by human behaviors, it could also be removed by human behaviors, with understanding of the impact. doing this and participating in it would preserve more sense of why it is there, and give a space for holding a natural sense of explanation for it and associated feelings, rather than leaving invasive thoughts to address symptomatically. just thoughts. i think these things at other times, maybe sometimes more clearly than the above. - recovery is sped up if real language is substituted for cult "loaded language", wjhich may be habitual and thought-stopping - rather than trying not to think of the cult words, which can subtly reinforce them, think of other words to engage rather than them, like with floating - it can take intense effort to replace learned habits like cult jargon - triggering can swell if this effort is not made i'm thinking with digital cults, we have this too, although a lot of the language is actually memetic pictures or emoji rather than words - connect with friends who don't trigger you as much, to speed up healing - reclaim your native language - loss of concentration and memory is a common problem for former cult members - author used to read 3 books/week, but after the cult experience could barely get through a single paragraph. would have to stop and look up normal words, read and re-read material. needed to buy a dictionary to relearn normal words. needed to use reference material to engage own memories of their own life. - concentration and memory can be built up again - it took the author one year to get their memory and concentration and reading back to pre-cult levels i wonder if i was influenced to reduce this. practicing my cognition really sends me into spasms. i'm getting better at it. i vaguely remember there is story around this. remembering briefly putting a dog drawing over a graphing calculator. - nightmares indicate the former member needs additional counseling - they indicate unresolved conflicts within the mind, still wrestling with cult involvement the described nightmares aren't that similar to mine. mine more seem like some part of me feels it needs to hurt and scare me as much as it can, especially involving loss of personal control, maybe, hard to remember them, but very very shocking. they're reducing. i wonder if the dreams are specifically from people who have gone through a certain exit process. some unique properties to them. the preservation and shifting of the concept of a surprising contradictory reality implies unaddressed sudden change to me, maybe with something important not included. this line may have more delusion. - some former members may have guilt about immoral things they were involved in in the group. this could be very severe, or simply not being able to engage family at important times. - it can be very very painful for a person to elave a cult and have to deal with havoc and emotional damage associated with them being involved and/or leaving, both within the cult and without the author, being involved in an asian government-associated cult in the usa, describes kind of feeling like they had severely betrayed their country. this resonated with their desire to speak out and help people leave. - after the author left their cult, the recruitees with whom they had formed many emotional connections, were moved and given a coverup story. the cult revealed the truth when the author appeared on television. i have an unknown association with that concept, maybe related to planning the future or something - cult members experiencing severe guilt need to realize that they were victims too, and did what they believed to be right at the time - children can be left with troubles and anger after not being treated well while the parents were in a cult. they may have grown up without basic childhood experiences. this is a spectrum. this section of the book briefly describes engaging a successful intervention for the parents of children who requested it. - defector harassments: threats, break-ins, lawsuits, blackmail, murder, in-person or remote - these are more likely if an ex-member goes public - these are more frequent when the defector is heavily visible - this risk is always present - the author describes working with a harasser who tried to instigate a public fistfight. the author took them to court for this. the harasser pled "no contest" in court. years later, after leaving the group, he said he had been instructed to take care of the author by his superior in the cult. - fear of violence has chilled many ex-cultists stories. actual violence is rare. sharing a story means that retaliators are incrimiated. - some aggressive groups make it a habit to not worry about defending their stories, instead simply attacking critics heavily. - scientology files lawsuits to strategically drain the finances and other capacity of their critics or opponents. - intimate relationships in cults are usually very unnatural, leaving ex-members with issues and a lack of experience with satisfying relationships - some ex-members may have forgotten how to be sexual, others may be unfamiliar with having power - learning to trust oneself and somebody else is a big deal for ex-cult members. problems can compouind, such as making decisions together. - best to seak therapy with a mental health professional who understands undue influence the topic of intimate relationships seems more complex than it sounds - ex-cult healing support is most effectively found from former members farther along - actual healing is responsibility of the individual - finding and becoming part of any healthy group, such as peer counseling, can be a big step forward - it is possible to coordinate ex-members, even if they are all doing poorly - former cult member support groups are very beneficial - resolving problems around the group experience happens before problems that existed prior - support groups ideally are run by experienced professionals, who are more likely to have skill in preventing further trauma - some support groups are sadly fronts for cults. look for legitimate online discussion portals, and don't reveal any personal information, until confident the group is legitimate. i'm encountering gmail issues that have caused loss of notes after this point, so i'm sending this. have not resolved them quite yet.
- there may be online support groups if there is not one in your area - it can be very disappointing that pre-cult problems were not resolved during the cult membership, due to the illusion of health - ex-cult-members may have not psychologically, personally, or culturally aged during their time. they may have nothing to talk about other than the cult experience - have to catch up on _everything_, may feel urgent around catching up on lost time - _take_ time to heal, grow, and develop. discover or create your own path for your own needs - some people adjust to the outer world quickly, some people need a very long time similarly, some cults are far more intense than other cults - former members need to learn how to trust themselves again: become their own best friend and best therapist; to realise they didn't choose to be lied to or abused. eventually they learn it's okay to begin trusting others, as they find their own instincts and inherent wisdom work. they need to realise not all groups are harmful or deceptive, that one has choice around leaving and questioning things as much as one wants. - an important aspect of growth is getting in touch with one's emotions and effectively channeling them - emotions in general may remain suppressed when first leaving, but may arise when adjusting to the outside world. this is good. he focuses on shame, embarrassment, anger, indignation. i imagine any natural emotions count here. emotions are kinda touchy. one can have very fake emotions, and learn to express them in exit situations. one can learn to trick one's own perceptions with fake emotions. i mean personal experience here, not accusation of others. - an ex-member, after rediscovering emotions, may begin to research the cult to answer all their questions. this is also good. - number one priority is often rescuing friends from within - major regret is usually losing contact with people they care for within. this becomes more difficult when they are treated as an ex-member by the members. - after some engagement, the ex-cultist moves on - sometime people need additional extensive counseling if cult-related problems continue - author describes a 10-session therapy. assigned ex-cultist 1 sheet of paper for each month of involvement, and to write everything postiive and negative. gave many techniques for information access, recovery, or identification. - therapist described cult persona as no longer existing. "think about that person as a younger you, someone who was doing the very best they could" - client was asked to re-experience each traumatic experience, correcting her responses with her new experience. after being forcibly reprogrammed, the client needed to regain personal control of the experience. - "Integrating the old into the new allows former members to be unusually strong." - "We are survivors. We have suffered hardship and abuse, and, through information and self-reflection, we are able to overcome adversity." I might say "any adversity at all we choose to ourselves" ;p . not knowing for sure if i count in the author's "we" of course. not really knowing what my experience is. - after the therapy, the client learned "on a very deep personal level that they can identify and avoid any situation in which they are being manipulated or used" - trust in one's self and others builds step by step. the nature of trust is you are in control of your risks. - regrettably only a small number of recovery facilities - one is Wellspring Retreat, Barbara Martin, Athens, Ohio - work is needed to offer services without pricetags, as ex-members have no financial resources i think i know how to do that with others, but i don't how to know that i am
i've established a relationship with only 1 person in the cult recovery at this point, which is a celebration, but also insufficient as the relationship is still shaky. (i can freak out and ditch such things, then have amnesia afterward). this person suggested i listen to a certain podcast, which i have begun listening to some. in the podcast is opportunity for a lot of amnesia-deterring notes, which i have not been taking. one item is of note: an ex-scientologist also reported, as mentioned earlier in these notes, things that could possibly indicate something else coopting hubbard's influence on the members. basically, occasionally some of the things i have experienced seem to indicate message interception more than the person i am talking actually intending to relate what i perceive (in addition to personal delusion). cult members don't seem to have this paranoia: if they receive a message from a leader, they so far seem to assume that the leader themself sent it. [in the podcast this was not necessary true] another thing i heard from the podcast was from an ex-Moonie who actually participated in the attack on the white house in the usa, at the direction of moon. ch 12 this chapter starts with a section titled 'cults and the united states government\ the author goes straight into mkultra, wow. i wonder if they were scared at all when he researched it. they don't write like they were. author describes statement that mkultra was unauthorised, work of rogue workers, as a "claim", and i remember from my experience the tense urge for workers and victims to take blame for any problems there was government anticult activity in the late 1970s. i'm thinking of how the widespread culture of the 60s and early 70s evaporated, and the strong pressure for people to form hierarchical power systems. also how the apparant norm of accusing others of one's very own tactics, would make it easy to publicly "disown" smaller cults. - the author realised the political clout of cults when the usa government, despite releasing multiple studies and recommendations, took no action on cult activities in the late 1970s - the cia had been performing nonconsensual mind control studies on american citizens since the late 1940s. - John Marks read a short sentence in 1975, investigated the CIA's activities, and published The Search for the Manchurian Candidate in 1979. - John Marks efforts inspired Alan W. Scheflin and Edward M. Opton Jr, who performed further research, and published The Mind Manipulators the same year. - the books detailed two decades of CIA mind control research and activities, involving over 80 american subcontractors (MK-ULTRA) - MK-ULTRA's research was very thorough - MK-ULTRA involved nonconsensual research on both civilians and government employees, including things known to cause permanent harm - techniques included LSD and BZ (both drugs having permanent harm, BZ being worse), brain surgery, electroshock, sensory deprivation, isolation, hypnosis, and sexual and verbal abuse some of these things are things TIs and political targets experience too of course i have paranoia, and also experience targeting, i guess i just want to mention here again that a TI was very worried when I was going for cancer surgery, and told me that it was stupid to do and I should not. i did. the surgery to my head lasted 10 hours, which is long and very abnormal. after my surgery, i could not read text for a week, which is also very abnormal. then, genetic sequencing of my tumor revealed that it had been misdiagnosed and no surgery was needed, which is also very abnormal. sorry for the paranoid insertion. all things rational, it was just very scary, which influences one a lot. - the book mentions the canadian psychiatric hospital that there has been some activism around, where Ewan Cameron, president of the World Psychiatric Association, supervised the research - the CIA destroyed most of the MK-ULTRA records, preventing other researchs from integrating and reproducing the work information on how they were destroyed is needed. - ABC has a quality documentary on MK-ULTRA called Mission Mind Control - Senator Frank Church led The Church Committee to investigate the research in 1975. However, it did not go any further than existing published work. - CIA used two strategies to prevent investigation of the work: it leaked stories to guide investigation, and denied any responsibility for the program - It is known that MK-ULTRA was not a rogue element, that higher ups were indeed responsible: - The media available at the time included a recording of a speech from the top of the CIA discussing details of the program. - Thousands of victims means large-scale. - Funding for all such research flowed through the government. something not mentioned here is that a research director was the head of the world psychiatric association. I imagine mind control is very useful for engaging investigations of mind control, regardless of specific points. - one of the barriers in the way of investigating MK-ULTRA was a lack of public information on mind control - coming to this world event with extended experience in mind control, questions were raised in the author: why wasn't the government informing people of the dangers in general? why did discussions shift into religious liberty and free speech? - there has not yet been an official government statement on the existence or dangers of mind control - Germany, France, Belgium, and other European countries have created task forces to investigate mind control cults. The US government has no public initiative the author is aware of [author considers FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, and "any other intelligence-gathering agency"]. - mind control cults pose a clear threat to national security. a high-ranking government official must make a statement. to me it seems highly likely that cults work together to coerce government workers to not make waves. it also seems quite possible the cults heavily overlap the government. the boss story describes there as being a top-cultist named Boss who basically runs governments via heavily influence in collaboration with other dictators and executives. confusing paranoias. [lost some notes here from a finger mistake] - american people have spent millions of tax dollars on harmful mind control research. such money should be spent on investigating the devastating effects and dangers of mind control. - former cult members are an untapped research opportunity the author states there is "no political will" for these things; may not be familiar with activism. if you don't do it yourself, some lobbyist does. - public, maybe partly classified, ethical research can have medical and security benefit. - conducting research into mind control, the government has a responsibility to educate the public that it at least exists at all [i think he means that when you learn about mind control, it is an intense thing, and anybody who learns this holds this responsibility, which makes a lot of sense to me.] - the government's silence indirectly condones unethical undue influence ongoing in the country - mind control must be exposed to full public scrutiny to honor the nation's core principles of freedom and democracy next section is mind control and professional mental health - victims of undue influence can't count on mental health professionals meeting their needs - this is strange because the DSM contains a diagnosis for victims of thought reform - in the DSM 5 it is Other Specified Dissociative Disorder 300.15 (F44.9) page 305, number 2 - it states victims of extreme brainwashing may present with changed or questioning identity - professionals tend to be unaware of this diagnosis, and the specialized approaches that have been developed to handle it - there was an opportunity to change this in 2002 when Zimbardo was president of the APA and chaired a convention panel called Cults of Hatred - people from all over the mind control recovery communities attended - extended words from zimbardo are reproduced in the book. he clearly cites that mind control can cause anybody to do anything. - the APA board members did not "wake up" to mind control, similar to previous efforts given cult lobbying and influence, the author seems to fail to consider forming individual relationships with board members to get a sense of what might be going on and what would be needed to change things - a previous attempt was Dr Margeret Singer in 1983. internal politics appear to be at work. the APA deemed the problem not serious enough. - it is dreadful that neither the institutes of state nor psychotherapy have stepped up to help those adversely affected by mind control - the author is hopeful that this will soon change, via enlightened professionals and mostly growing numbers of active former members forming allies mind control research - despite government disinterest, much public research happens - Robert Jay Lifton: 1961 Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, 1986 The Nazi Doctors, 1999 Destroying the World to Save It - Margaret Singer + Janja Lalich: Cults in Our Midst; and Crazy Therapies - Philip Zimbardo: The Lucifer Effect - Louis Jolyon West and Paul Martin, pseudo-identity disorder paper - Robert Cialdini: Influence, details six laws for alteration - Anthony Pratkanis and Elliot Aronson: Age of Propaganda - former cult members from major cults shared stories: Deborah Layton, Nori Muster, Alexandra Stein, Richard E. Kelly - leaders tend to have one or both of two serious disorders: narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and/or antisocial personality disorder (psychopathy / sociopathy) - Steven Kent: Narcissistic Grandiosity and the Life of Sun Myung Moon - Daniel Shaw: Traumatic Narcissism: Relational Systems of Subjugation [recommended by author for reading] - Sam Vaknin: Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisted, also several videos on youtube/samvaknin - Anna Salter: Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders [author says is best book on sex abusers and most cult leaders] this book might be good for understanding Boss! - Flavil Yeakley studied cult members and administered a test that very clearly detected the presence of a new identity Yeakley's test could be good to share with a therapist, although it would make sense to check literature for how to filter out normal psychoses. - Some of the researchers call the phenomenon of a suppressed original identity "cloning". Yeakley's test gave separate MBTI codes for the different personalities. These codes look like they would provide for gross profiling of cult doctrines based on members personalities. the identification of a shifting personality was considered indication of problematic mind control. - much more research needs to be done - well-respected professionals who are experts on mind control: Lifton, Singer, West, Zimbardo, John Clark, Edgar Schein, Michael Langone, Carmen Almendros, Rod Dubrow-Marshall, Bill and Lorna Goldberg, Steve Eichel, others associated with the International Cultic Studies Association - epidemiological studies are needed to investigate public health effects - public health issues include psychotic breakdowns, violent acts, suicides, drug and alcohol abuse, depression, and anxiety disorders - FMRI research has many possiblities. A hypnotic state activates the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC). Distinctive brain signatures have been identified for identity switched in dissociative identity disorder. I think at this point we know that everything somebody experiences or does produces a brain signature. Author may not be aware of this. - cults are actively performing unethical social psychology experiments; exposing the biological effects of this is a way to stop them - incredible good can come from brain signal research - research is needed into beneficial uses of mind control: weight loss, motivation, smoking cessation my experience, and i believe others, leads me to believe that ethical mind control could aid most mental health issues - mind control for reduction of depression. David Burns teaches a little in Feeling Good - simple technique: repeatedly imagine a better future - ethical mind control means the locus of control must be within the self mind controlling yourself is the only good kind of mind control. can initially seem antithetical if one has learned the opposite. - voluntary mind control could significantly reduce crime by giving people more options for handling their situations - people who know how mind control operates have a distinct advantage, both in influencing themselves and others, and in protecting themselves and others from unethical influence - use of mind control, and anything mind-altering, must be guided by morality and wisdom - we need thorough debate and building in of protections - the societal understanding of mind control is just beginning - much more must be done to educate professionals and empower them to help those in need protecting children from cult abuse - there is extended research showing the effect of abuse on the developing brain, and also showing that the brain is resilient and retains plasticity - indoctrinated children may have constant hate and fear, or even be trained how to kill. these are abuse. - countries providing for this abuse should be held accountable. the nuremberg tribunal suggested this constitutes a crime against humanity. - David Cooperson: The Holocaust Lessons on Compassionate Parenting and Child Corporal Punishment . shows clearly how physical harm to a child harms the child's development. stoplegalchlidabuse.com to change the laws - organizations that abuse children, such as jehovah's witnesses, should not be tax-exempt, and countries that provide for this should be held accountable. the jehovah's witnesses have policies in place that protect criminal pedophilia and punishes victims who speak out. victims who flee tend to be enslaved on the streets. - action is missing to protect children from being kidnapped or sold to human traffickers - if you have sex with someone who looks underage, they probably are. call the police and rescue the minor. there could be laws requiring people to report suspected child trafficking. the writing is unclear on whether the author is requesting there to be laws, or stating that there are laws in some areas. such areas could be safer and have more options around trafficking and coercion. - christian science and jehovah's witnesses refuse medical treatment for their children. given these are destructive cults, the laws for religious exemption should not apply here; they must be amended to protect the childrens' health and lives. - twelve tribes and followers of christ do not register their children at birth. this hides the large number of child deaths due to faith healing, from being tracked in normal systems. - Janet Heimlich: Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment ; Child Friendly Faith Project - after divorce or separation, even noncult parents tend to indoctrinate the child against the other parent. this happens more strongly when a parent leaves a cult. children may be taught stories of molestation. - Amy Baker and Paul Fine: Surviving Parental Alienation; Co-Parenting with a Toxic Ex . developed a program for middle school guidance counselors, to prevent abuse after divorce - BITE model has been vital for children indoctrinated against a parent. it helps them understand what happened to them. - homeschooling can work great outside a cult, but homeschooling inside a cult may not protect children. in public school, somebody sees if a child is physically injured, for example. public schools can also observe trauma reactions and other indicators. cults and the law - present usa laws mostly don't recognize that mind control exists, without the threat of physical force - there are laws against undue influence for protecting children and vulnerable adults - courts tend to not agree that undue influence causes radical personality change when the individual is not elderly - this is normal. it took many years to show courts that victims of domestic violence could not freely leave - victims of cult abuse can struggle to find justice in courts - legal theories protecting cult victims, that may exist, have not been applied - judges can see terms like "brainwashing" or "mind control", even when testified by scientific experts, as fanciful or outlandish. it can be hard to bring scientific testimony to a court when the terms are used to describe it. - possible avenues include fraud and intentional emotional distress, although there is not much precedent - human traffickers use the same mind control as cults, and law enforcement and other associated professionals are beginning to recognise these things - several states have Safe Harbor laws, protecting minors forced into prostitution, who receive advocatres - Kathleen Kim: The Coercion of Trafficked Workers . the law must be applied fairly and in support of victims. - cults hide behind religious freedom. this is supposed to apply to beliefs, not harmful behaviors. cult lawyers conflate these things. - Marci Hamilton: God vs the Gavel: The Perils of Extreme Religious Liberty - groups with influence over lawmakers can acquire special treatment under the law again the author doesn't mention processes of influencing the laws ourselves and may be unaware of them - a view is that, although we have freedom to worship and behave as we choose, we also need freedom from other people's attempts to make us do things as they want us to. - analysis of recruitment and conversion. does a group have a right to deceive recruitees? does a group have the right to manipulate environment, thoughts, and feels, in order to create a conversion? where should the line be drawn? more ahead - recently, Alan Scheflin, applies the legal concept of undue influence to all human beings. what remains is scientific detection of undue influence. - Social Influence Model, or SIM, detects mind control - 6 elements: 1. influence 2. influencer's motives 3. influencer's methods 4. circumstances of influence 5. influencee's receptivity or vulnerability (regardless of general attribute) 6. consequences for both parties . there is abundant data on each element to base legal arguments around. - currently cults have better legal protections than victims, partly due to legal financing cults have, and the use of the first amendment. sometimes the ACLU has sided with cults. - civil lawsuits by former members have had mixed results - a huge libel suit against the moonies won in europe. the moonies had to completely compensate the ex-members for legal fees. - people who accuse a cult of using "mind control" or "brainwashing" are themselves protected by the first amendment from liability for defamation. legal cases have backed this. please speak out. - some lawyers have offered to assist cult victims in these suits, sometimes pro bono - Paul Grosswald had a recent case protecting examiningthewmscog.com - cult-owned businesses flourish when the economy gets shaky: they have free labor and avoid paying taxes because employees turn their wages over to a tax-exempt organisation. this also hides the massive profit the business makes. - cults have taken over the running of some companies via programs that teach people how to influence and control others - threats of lawsuits by cults chill many people, and also the media - Heather Kaven: Falun Gong in the Media: What Can We Believe? - author has received personal relation that things were not published due to fears of litigation. others have publicly stated they have received this as well. - with an open internet, it has[/had?] been difficult for cults to do information control this may have related to the situations of bandwidth filtering and censorship laws cults & mlm businesses - ftc can sue MLM ocmpanies - any company that claims becoming millionaires by claiming the same to others can be reported to government - Fitzpatrick, Brooks, and Craig accoridng to pyramidschemealert.org, careful research around pyramid scheme legality. the white paper is important and useful. - white paper includes statistical analysis of economic performance - useful for attorneys, regulators, journalists, financial analysts, interested consumers regarding FTC investigation and associated businesses the example MLM corp is herbalife. i'm not sure i've taken herbalife supplements or if i am remembering some similar company. a lot of thoughts on how these cults generally seem to coopt non-"america" cultures and present them in a very urgent and fake way. herbs of course are the original source for the science of pharmaceuticals, and have strong medicinal uses; these uses then support a lot of dying cultures. it is sad that herbs would instead be sold by a destructive cult. the pattern of coopting of weak cultures is displayed many other places. this seems very important. - the white paper does not address the prsence of mind control via BITE control, which is quite present in MLM groups - MLMs have a high price to get involved, which can harm the people involved unless they are in the top 1 percent of earners. like other cults, their lives are destroyed. - MLMs should not be in business - author states it is up to the government to protect public again not mentioning how government behavior stems from citizen behavior in a democracy - be wary of MLM groups; until they are stopped, customers and workers can be endangered cults and religious freedom all this aggressive use of freedom of religious belief, i wonder if more powerful cult leaders are christian and could have frustration remaining from when freedom of religious belief became a law at all. [i believe christianity was the law previously.] - cults major defense when criticism is religious freedom - religious freedom is a well-known and widespread human right. it is very important. - religious freedom provides to beliefs, not behaviors. human sacrifice, for example, is not allowed. - quote "your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins" he uses a bullhorn example, 3 AM. i am again worried regarding the MOVE group who used a bullhorn and were likely heavily politically targeted; he described them as a cult early in the book i did learn of this group near the start of my own experience, but later i encountered a long-term dedicated activist who knew a woman who survived the group's targeting, so it seems quite reasonable to me that the group is real. also, they were black and the police bombed and killed them -- while the author here describes the law mostly ignoring cults. - free speech likely to cause serious harm is not given protection by the law. religion is not immune from these limits. - Frederick Clarkson: Eternal Hostility; The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy . explores roots of the portion of the constitution. religious rights have limitations. - James Clarkson says that it is the responsibility of all sects to prevent sects from invading other sects nice to know the idea is old and published. - Thomas Jefferson also wrote that people must be free to enter and leave churches - laws must protet freedom of religion such that individual liberties and social values are not sacrifices, and people retrain their individual freedom to select their religion - it is not your beliefs that are the concern: it is how you are you are recruiting people. - clarkson addresses groups like cults, and describes them as _violating_ religious freedom - navigating a multi-religious society takes knowledge and maturity. we must embrace protecting those we disagree with, to protect our own cause. - George Washington wrote that bigotry and persecution must not be provided for - religious tolerance is important. as a moonie, the author was abused by non-moonies. this results in defensiveness, strengthening the cult's control. - because of freedom of religion, the author and others are able to leave their cult's doctrines. - banning cults entirely would force them underground; they do have the right to exist this concept is sketchy. we have seen similar things with recreational drugs, and criminal activity. some things do get forced underground. other things actually go away. people disagree on whether laws are good or bad. given that people coming out of mind control cults are saying not to ban them and that they are horrible, i, karl, would liken this to a victim of abuse saying not to stop their abuser, because they are scared the abuser will get mad and exert wrath. it's not exactly a solution. it's more a fear. the expression doesn't to me seem in line with the author's other expressions and choices that might back them. - it would be great for governments to support an inoculation program against destructive mind control and cults in which citizens are provided with an understanding to keep them free from undue influence that is of course essential, and it is severely immoral to not provide it. similar to education against harmful drugs. i imagine social network situations are making much stronger push for this now. [more notes lost from a finger spasm, again retyping] what you can do - learn more. documentaries: Going Clear; Truth Be Told; Prophets Prey. wedsites: openmindsfoundation.org; icsahome.com; familiesagainstcultteachings.org; freedomofmind.com . Author's other books: Releasing the Bonds; especially Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults and Beliefs - author's social media: twitter @CultExpert; facebook.com/FOMinc - read UN universal declaration of human minds and share widely. share resources with others. discuss things publicly and in reading/movie groups. write reviews on places like amazon. - protect yourself. research organizations before engaging them. ask questions provided in ch7. ===> do not share personal information to channels viewed by people who do not clearly demonstrate trustworthiness <=== if somebody newly shows "psychic powers" about you, assume they got information about you somehow. - lobby local, state, and federal politicians. set up appointments to express your concerns. ask them to stand up for human rights. - if you suspect somebody may be a victim, don't turn a blind eye. act quickly. express concerns to friends and family. [how to help if friends and family are involved or hopeless? pretty important.] - if you know a former member who is struggling, please go out of your way to help them find a job, re-enter the educational system, etc. do whatever you can to help them re-enter their culture, society, etc. - if you are a former member, help de-stigmatize cult involvement. tell your story. show people there isn't something "wrong" with us. help the public see we were unduly influenced. - if you can help members leave, please do. if helpful, there is also work available behind the scenes, helping people who are setting up websites, social media compaigns, contacting authorities, hiring attorneys and private investigators to find out background information ... => note: i believe the author says here their group is asking for help. if help is offered and refused, that would seem strange, after reading this. <= for government workers: - ask surgeon general, or some other high-ranking and credible fofficial, to state definitively that undue influence exists and that destructive cult mind control is bad for public health - educate law enforcement and intelligence agencies, so they can more effectively combat human trafficking and terrorism - regulate lobbying and impose stiff penalties for subverting the constitution and abrogating human rights - carefully review "religious" organizations applying for tax-exempt status. take action against those that wrongly have it, such as Scientology; citizens want their tax dollars used as the law directs, not as cults request. - set up an agency for reporting or whistleblowing. hire experienced investigators. questionable groups should be asked to reform their policies and pay damages to retain irs exemption. guilty groups should be stripped of the status and made to sell asset to compensate victims. it would be nice to get back money lost from a cult, when one figures out that this happened. noting here that again cults that coopt minority cultures also then entrain people who are excited both those cultures, and drain them of resources and neuter their cultural impact by surrounding them with a cult. for media workers - accept responsibility to support investigating journalism protecting the public good - do not hide the truth to protect a bottom line. maybe a body that funds attorneys to defend threatened journalists would help. - fire workers who worship or accept payment stemming from totalitarian cult leaders, especially very bad ones - publicise online the many cult exposes that are in archives - don't use cult-supporting names such as ISIS which is not a state; the Muslim term for the tiny destructive group is Daesh. ISIS/Daesh would work. the Wahhabi sect Al Qaedi members are is neither representative of Sunnis. - write more stories about these things. hold people up as the courageous heros they are. - idea of a truly independent investigative journalism entity, needed for democracy. it's worrying that a recent report described advertisers working with editorial boards to include product placement. for education workers: - if you are knowledgeable, offer a program, unit, class, or curriculum to teach these things. otherwise, bring in a qualified speaker. - create an atmosphere gthat encourages questioning, discussion, and diverse viewpoints - teach students critical analytic thinking - teach students to look out for others responsibly slightly missing: set up programs to teach everyone to recognise indicators of mind control, and things to do when it looks like it might be present. could work with human trafficking activists. for attorneys: - study and use Scheflin's SIM model - please represent victims without finances - educate judges - present at bar association meetings - contact Freedom of Mind for strategy, research, and witness work for mental health professionals: - attend a class or wkshop on these things. find training or supervision from a qualified expert. - when working with new clients, ask questions to help determine if they have been victims. if you do not have the appropriate training, refer them to professionals who do, or get trained yourself for spiritual leaders: - talk about these things with congregants and networks - bring in speakers on these things - practice, encourage, demonstrate, and speak, about spiritual discernment - act quickly when suspicion rises. speak with family members and friends. speak with a cult expert. - insist schools and seminaries teach how to counsel victims. clergy are often first responders, and many are unprepared. - practice tolerance and organize programs to bring people of differnt faiths together. ecumenism. - engage karen artmstrong's charterforcompassion.org for philanthropists: - please contribute as we don't have the financing of a cult. it could: - fund established people to research and write about these things - establish a think tank where research and resources can be centralised - develop educational programs around the human mind - support heoricimagination.org ; it is a veryt inspiring teaching tool. author wants to find funding to create new modules and make it the best method for mind control inoculation in the world. - develop facilities to help victims to understand and recover - support childfriendlyfaith.org and againstviolentextremism.org -- two non-profits the author works in - trainers are looking for support to train a new generation of how to leave "self-sealing systems" - share this cause with other philathropists - crowdsource! look at interests, share other parts with others coda - this work is author's heart-path - hopefully this book helps people understand how undue influence may be operating around the reader - => sharing the techniques that are in this book may likely increase the sophistication of cult programming. this risk is intentionally taken to fill a gap of motivating readers to able to start working to help themselves and others. - author hopes this book has large positive impact. hope readers join OMF, ICSA, and other counter-cult groups, and subscribe to their newsletters and journals. - if you've been through an experience, get involved and make a stand. help is needed! just sharing your story and knowledge is incredibly powerful. you can save lives by simply sharing your experience. - as cults are understood better, many many things will improve. most former clients of the author have returned to a life and become very productive citizens performing diverse professional work. where-ever you are, take a positive step. - you can make an enormous difference that's the book. to try to comprehend the words better i've been listening to the audiobook at the same time as reading it, which has helped me in a couple other situations. next the audiobook does the appendix, which i already posted, so i'll send the chapter and find that. the appendix is prior to the endnotes in the email for chapter 4. lifton's 8 criteria of mind control - Robert Jay Lifton: The Future of Immortality and Other Essays for a Nuclear Age; Cults: Religious Totalism and Civil Liberties 1. Milieu control 2. Mystical manipulation / planned spontaneity 3. The demand for purity 4. The cult of confession 5. Sacred science 6. Loading of the langugae 7. Doctrine over person 8. Dispensing of existence - Idealogical Totalism: Lifton's name for the Chinese thought reform practice from the Korean War 1. Milieu Control - control of communication within an environment - extremely intense control becomes internalized control, attempting to manage the individual's internal communication - full internal communication control does not happen, but it can go very far - "God's-eye view": believing the group controls reality - autonomy threatens this - in cults, this may mean group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailability of transportation, and sometimes physical pressure - often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters - each event or situation may become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated - ther esult is both physical and psychological difficulty in escape the milieu control like not using private keys! - cults and totalitarianism differ here, as cults need to manage situations outside their island, compared to a totalitarian state where there is not as much "inside" and "outside" - the management of an island of totalism can mean deeper control and systematic environment management - the imposition of control is closely connected to the process of change - a doubling / second self is formed, living side-by-side with the prior self, but somewhat autonomously from it this paragraph, mentioning doubling under milieu control, looks somewhat helpful for understanding this form of dissociation, which i experience - because of the milieu control, when outside the milieu the member's other identity expresses more [because the environment stimulates a different set of habits i'm thinking] - the two selves can exist together confusedly for a considerable time. transition periods can be the most intense, painful, and harmful. does not mention handling the confusedness 2. Mystical Manipulation / Planned Spontaneity - higher-ups plan "spontaneous" environmental events. they appear to arise on their own, but are planned. - presently, the cult pattern is for a particular "chosen" human being to be the savior or source of salvation, which gives a special quality for mystical manipulation as the leader is seen as mediating directly with the deity. this can strongly validate the spontaneous event. - when the spontaneity stems from the leader's word, mind control can reduce when cultists find other things out about the cult or leader - mystical manipulation leads to "psychology of the pawn" in cults - can also legitimise lying to outsiders 3 & 4: Demand for Purity & Cult of Confession - demand for purity calls for strong dichotomy both in the self and environment, between pure and impure or good and evil - continuing process of absolute purification - often institutionalized - stimulates guilt and shame - ties in to confession - in confession, guilt and shame are used to strongly influence members - confession pairs with criticism and self-criticism, often within small groups, focusing on personal change - confessions tend to still involve concealment, even if only because they do not know themselves well - confession can trend to have an attribute of supporting the behavior of confession rather than improvement of behavior. this is stronger in cult-style confessions. 5, 6, & 7: Sacred Science, Loading of Language, & Doctrine Over Person - sacred science is the provision of spirit as scientific, to pull in modern folk - significantly simplifies the world - cult may claim to have solved science - in moonies, the science is backed by a claim stating it, and visiting scholars who speak - loading the language refers to how words or images can become god - language may seem cliche-ridden, but has strong draw and power - may provide a simple way to interpret all experiences - prevents complex thought - doctrine over person refers to the conflict between one's real internal experiences, and what the doctrine says one should feel - the dogma is assumed true, and the real different experience then becomes a source of guilt or condemnation - doubts can be considered reflections of evil sounds like this would make dissociation - this conflict can also cause people to leave cults; membership can be harder than money 8. Dispensing of Existence - usually metaphorical - people who do not believe the doctrine are not real in some way - behaviors become those that provide for existence at all - being in the category of nonexistence can be very very frightening - acceptance provides great satisfaction, elite member - sometimes this is literal, and those who are not accepted are killed, described in totalitarian dictatorships - this totalistic approach to resolving problems is deadly - this is more dangerous as technology advances e.g. nuclear detonation could be used - none of the processes is airtight - it's important to write about these 8 processes, because there is a tendency in the culture to deny that such things exist - describing these also demystifies them imo the descriptions of lifton's 8 things are more confusing than the rest of the book. my notes could use a rewrite. - Lifton: Witness to an Extreme Centure: A Memoir - Lifton gave two videotaped interviews on freedomofmind.com finally, some of the author information - books: Combating Cult Mind Control; Releasing the Bonds; Freedom of Mind - the author has spoken and interviewed widely - invented Strategic Interactive Approach, a non-coercive alternative to deprogramming - has helped thousands of victims, starting in 1976, and educated professionals across society including jric.org - author was recruioted at college, spent 27 months in a cult, rose to be assistant director, and was deprogrammed after an automobile accident - gave massive set of private cult leader speeches documenting plan of world documentation to police and to the 1978 congressional subcommittee into south korean cia activities - founded ExMoon, Inc in 1979, 400 former members, one of the first and largest in world, now defunct - Freedom of Mind Resource Center, Inc founded in 1999, freedomofmind.com . consulting, counseling, publishing; upholding human rights, promoting consumer awareness, exposing abuses - co-developed Ending The Game for sex trafficking mind control help. trains for sex trafficking as well. - member of The Program in Psychiatry and the Law at Harvard, forensic think tank that sounds a little relevent [i have a lot of experiences indicating need and yearning for certain forensic things that seem not understood anywhere, regarding human experience] - non-profit Freedom from Undue Influence is division of Dare Association, researching undue influence under Dr Michael Commons - doctoral student at Fielding Graduate University; seeking to do quantitiative research on BITE model as forensic instrument - devotes major portion of time and energy to actively consulting with individuals and organizations - see freedomofmind.com and freedomfromundueinfluence.org or on facebook for current information i got through the whole book !!!!!! i think i heard maybe a third of it, which is probably about the average honestly huh
participants (5)
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\0xDynamite -
Karl Semich -
punk -
Rooty -
Undiscussed Groomed for Male Slavery, One Victim of Many