There are some very wealthy early cryptocurrency anarcho OGs. Given a working crypto prediction market, them dropping a million for a solid prediction on when some cantalope will pop... a fun game for them. Any extra kicked in by the masses is just icing on the cake. BTW, the US is well beyond bankrupt, search deficit and debt. That entire $700B, and more, could be seen as being funded by fake money. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 05:54:33AM -0500, John Newman wrote:

On August 15, 2018 2:31:10 AM CDT, grarpamp wrote:

...

There are some very wealthy early cryptocurrency anarcho OGs. Given a working crypto prediction market, them dropping a million for a solid prediction on when some cantalope will pop... a fun game for them. Any extra kicked in by the masses is just icing on the cake.

Does an AP market dominated by a bunch of the fucking ultra wealthy, whose interests I promise you do not align with yours, whatever sociopathic method they used to accrue their capital, even count as a functional AP market?

This is a primary question/ concern that someone asked a year or so ago.

...

BTW, the US is well beyond bankrupt, search deficit and debt. That entire $700B, and more, could be seen as being funded by fake money.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

-------- Original message --------From: John Newman Date: 8/15/18 3:54 AM (GMT-08:00) To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org, grarpamp , CypherPunks Subject: Re: Next Year's Federal Military budget over $700 billion. Is that a   problem? On August 15, 2018 2:31:10 AM CDT, grarpamp wrote:

There are some very wealthy early cryptocurrency anarcho OGs. Given a working crypto prediction market, them dropping a million for a solid prediction on when some cantalope will pop... a fun game for them. Any extra kicked in by the masses is just icing on the cake.

Does an AP market dominated by a bunch of the fucking ultra wealthy, whose interests I promise you do not align with yours, whatever sociopathic method they used to accrue their capital, even count as a functional AP market?

BTW, the US is well beyond bankrupt, search deficit and debt. That entire $700B, and more, could be seen as being funded by fake money.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

That's only the tip of the shitberg (android does not try to correct that word btw). There's the Black Budget for all the dirty wars, destabilizations by proxy (chechen islamist bombing russian theaters... tsarnaev's family was involved in that covert operation), et al. But what should REALLY gall everyone, even true blue patriots is the fact that Congress told the Pentagon to stop supplying logistics like refueling aircraft and targeting intel to the school bus bombing Saudis fighting our proxy war in Yemen, and the pentagram said, in so many words, "Sorry Dave. I can't do that.", yet Congress never even hesitated to pass, or threaten to sequester funding one thin dime of the NDAA. RR

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 01:58:26PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:

...

Does an AP market dominated by a bunch of the fucking ultra wealthy, whose interests I promise you do not align with yours, whatever sociopathic method they used to accrue their capital, even count as a functional AP market?

It's arguable whether anyone's interests align with anyone else, however freedom from being murdered (and, and as part of, the larger NAP principle) might be a starting baseline universal truth.

As to the wealthy 1% vs the poor 99% in an AP market...

When decentral anonymous crypto AP markets are proven bulletproof (by reviews, by prior successful predictions, and by unconfirmed predictions to take them down [1], etc) then a few things will probably be true...

a) Those wealthy will be too busy bidding to murder each other like mob bosses, thus thinning their herd and allowing higher mass funded prices on their remaining heads.

Yes, I agree with this, at least the first part. I'm not sure that there will be any real thinning of the herd at the top - it sounds like a way for the super-rich to simply cull anybody they see as an economic threat. AP as death-squad enforcement for cartels of the super-rich. Does that sound like a good outcome? :P

b) The masses, again being anonymous and widespread, are therefore simply not targetable... there's no proof of their action thus no rationale to put out in a question for c) below. And the prediction cost to get them all, over and above the already IRL cost of enslaving them all, is double... better off just marching your revolutionary guards down the street and murder them all at $0.25 a bullet. Doing that also lowers their profit and revenue from slavery. Nor are there enough crazies or fortune seekers out there to make a dent before IRL people stop them. So there's no point.

c) No peasant is going to murder another peasant without both - a good price, impossible as above. - a good reason, none exist... and in this scenario they are all brothers allies and comrades in class warfare.

So piss them off as in b) or c) and...

d) ... in goes whatever's left after taxes and TV, which could be a lot once they figure out that an AP market is much more cathartic gory and participatory fun than the fake gladiators they see on TV.

If someone could spin AP into a "reality show" style format, cameras turned on in the last minutes of the assassination, with video of the hit uploaded into the system (anonymously of course), then maybe people would take an interest :) Of course, I doubt that's workable. Who knows what methods will be used for the killings, and whether they would be any fun to watch. Maybe add an excitement multiplier into the death payoff or something :P

[1] A strange wager to take down the same market the prediction question is lodged in... winning that would never pay out, thus all bids there are illogical.

-- GPG fingerprint: 17FD 615A D20D AFE8 B3E4 C9D2 E324 20BE D47A 78C7

On 08/15/2018 10:58 AM, grarpamp wrote: <SNIP>

b) The masses, again being anonymous and widespread, are therefore simply not targetable...

So why couldn't AP fund a nuclear strike? <SNIP>

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 3:55:16 AM PDT, John Newman wrote: On August 15, 2018 2:31:10 AM CDT, grarpamp wrote:

...

There are some very wealthy early cryptocurrency anarcho OGs. Given a working crypto prediction market, them dropping a million for a solid prediction on when some cantalope will pop... a fun game for them. Any extra kicked in by the masses is just icing on the cake.

Does an AP market dominated

How would you, or anyone, know if an AP-type market was "dominated"?   Whether absolutely secure and anonymous, or mostly anonymous, the vast majority of the population would not know who was using the AP system.  Sure, there would be speculation, but that is all.

by a bunch of the fucking ultra wealthy

Obviously, the "ultra wealthy" might appear to have one advantage over "the poor" in using AP:  They have much more money, on a per-person basis. But, the number of "the poor" (or, at least, those with incomes under, say, $100,000 per year)  greatly outnumber the "wealthy", and certainly the "ultra wealthy". https://www.financialsamurai.com/average-net-worth-is-huge/ Average net worth for America in 2014 was $301K.    Median net worth for America is $45K.   (Although, read that article; there is some dispute.)× Another factor is that in order to effectively use AP, you generally have to know who your target is.  And I am not merely referring to names.   In today's political system, in order to get what you want, you have to stick your head up and speak out.  That might make you a target.  But in an AP-type system world, you need not say anything, at least not anonymously..   To use AP you need to know who "the enemy" really is.  That's hard, when nobody is speaking up.   So even if a "ultra wealth" person has a virtually unlimited amount of money to pay into an AP system, how does he target his enemies?  How does he know who those "enemies" are?   He may know NOW, in a non-AP era, but he won't know in an AP-driven era in the near future.  

, whose interests I promise you do not align with yours, whatever sociopathic method they used to accrue their capital, even count as a functional AP market?

The fact that some "ultra wealthy" are using the AP system does not prevent others from using the same system.  So, the meaning of the word you used, "dominate", is limited.   Do the "ultra wealthy" "dominate" the American food market?  Does a person whose net worth is $1 million eat 100 times as much as a person whose net worth is $10K?  Does a person whose net worth is $100 million eat 10,000 times the amount of a person whose net worth is $10K?  What about other spending, such as housing, transportation, entertainment, etc?  

BTW, the US is well beyond bankrupt, search deficit and debt. That entire $700B, and more, could be seen as being funded by fake money.

That's a position which could be taken by people who think that the national debt will never be paid off.  (Or, perhaps, SHOULD never be paid off!!)   The problem is that debt is often owed to "ourselves".  And, perhaps it could be paid off by selling all Federal lands in America.  We should all ask, too, is it a "legitimate" debt?  That National debt may have been wasted, but the people loaning it to the Federal government did not, merely by that loaning, make it illegitimate.   I should also point out that I believe that one big reason that the "ultra wealthy" are ultra wealthy, is BECAUSE OF a big government, not IN SPITE OF a big government.  Most people don't seem to "get" that.  So, you don't like the "ultra wealthy", I get that.  But what's the best thing we could do about that?  I say, eliminate (or at least, drastically reduce) the size of government.   The American federal government spends about 30x more money, per person, corrected for inflation, than it did in about 1925.  Maybe THAT is where the wealth currently owned by the "ultra wealthy" actually came from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_the_United_States Some (many?) people would defend the size of the national defense spending on the basis that this country needs to be defended.  I have invented a system, AP, which I believe will defend the region formerly known as "America" with a factor of 100 less money, and quite possibly far less than even that.                        Jim Bell ×

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 11:37:15 AM PDT, John Newman wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 06:04:12PM +0000, jim bell wrote:

  On Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 3:55:16 AM PDT, John Newman wrote:  

On August 15, 2018 2:31:10 AM CDT, grarpamp wrote:

...

...

There are some very wealthy early cryptocurrency anarcho OGs. Given a working crypto prediction market, them dropping a million for a solid prediction on when some cantalope will pop... a fun game for them. Any extra kicked in by the masses is just icing on the cake.

...

Does an AP market dominated

How would you, or anyone, know if an AP-type market was "dominated"?   Whether absolutely secure and anonymous, or mostly anonymous, the vast majority of the population would not know who was using the AP system.  Sure, there would be speculation, but that is all.

I was replying to an argument stating, more or less, that there are plenty of crypto-millionaires with money to blow, so it doesn't matter if - as I suggested - most people don't give enough of a shit to particpate in AP. The millionaires can fund it, and AP fixes everything! Or something :) I find it hard to believe...

So, you are admitting that you really wouldn't know if an AP market was in any way "dominated" by any group or another.  So, why didn't you say so before?  Why invent a phony objection that won't work? Once you do that, why not agree that only a very tiny percentage of the population would be necessary to start an AP system running.    A large percentage of the population is living on the government's tit:  Government employees, of course, , and welfare, etc.  Military contractors, also.   This money came from SOMEBODY.  Maybe such SOMEBODIES want that system to stop, now that they've learned about the AP concept.   But there is an additional possibility.

...

by a bunch of the fucking ultra wealthy

Obviously, the "ultra wealthy" might appear to have one advantage over "the poor" in using AP:  They have much more money, on a per-person basis. But, the number of "the poor" (or, at least, those with incomes under, say, $100,000 per year)  greatly outnumber the "wealthy", and certainly the "ultra wealthy". The Average American Net Worth Is Huge!

...

Average net worth for America in 2014 was $301K.    Median net worth for America is $45K.   (Although, read that article; there is some dispute.)× Another factor is that in order to effectively use AP, you generally have to know who your target is.  And I am not merely referring to names.   In today's political system, in order to get what you want, you have to stick your head up and speak out.  That might make you a target.  But in an AP-type system world, you need not say anything, at least not anonymously..   To use AP you need to know who "the enemy" really is.  That's hard, when nobody is speaking up.   So even if a "ultra wealth" person has a virtually unlimited amount of money to pay into an AP system, how does he target his enemies?  How does he know who those "enemies" are?   He may know NOW, in a non-AP era, but he won't know in an AP-driven era in the near future.  

Right, this gets back to my point about the interests of the ultra wealthy having very little to do with the stated goals of AP. It seems to me they would only be interested in culling their economic competition, and otherwise propping one another up, no doubt with shifting alliances. I think it would boil down to just another way of gaming the system for the rich, to keep them rich.

I have explained, above, that even with the use of imaginative accountants, the "ultra wealthy" currently fund at least a large majority of (for example) America's Federal Government.   From: https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2015-update... × "In contrast, the top 1 percent of all taxpayers (taxpayers with AGIs of $428,713 and above), earned 19.04 percent of all AGI in 2013, but paid 37.80 percent of all federal income taxes. In 2013, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined.Nov 19, 2015[end of quote] For now, let's just consider that "top 1 percent of all taxpayers" who "paid 37.80% of all Federal income taxes.  Do you think THEY believe that those taxes are being spent wisely?  No, they're not stupid, are they?  They know that money is being wasted.  

...

, whose interests I promise you do not align with yours, whatever sociopathic method they used to accrue their capital, even count as a functional AP market?

The fact that some "ultra wealthy" are using the AP system does not prevent others from using the same system.  So, the meaning of the word you used, "dominate", is limited.   Do the "ultra wealthy" "dominate" the American food market?  Does a person whose net worth is $1 million eat 100 times as much as a person whose net worth is $10K?  Does a person whose net worth is $100 million eat 10,000 times the amount of a person whose net worth is $10K?  What about other spending, such as housing, transportation, entertainment, etc?

AP is not a consumable like food. No, a billionaire doesn't shit a billion times a day. But he does have a billion times more money to spend on AP than Joe six-pack.

Except that he doesn't have a billion times more targets.  He doesn't know who to target, and will likely never learn, because AP is intended to be anonymous.   AP can be readily used to tear down governments and their oppression.  It cannot be easily used to oppress, if for no other reason that people who want to oppress don't know who to target.                               Jim Bell

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 12:23:19 PM PDT, John Newman wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 07:06:10PM +0000, jim bell wrote:

  On Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 11:37:15 AM PDT, John Newman wrote:       On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 06:04:12PM +0000, jim bell wrote:

...

  On Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 3:55:16 AM PDT, John Newman wrote:  

On August 15, 2018 2:31:10 AM CDT, grarpamp wrote:

...

I was replying to an argument stating, more or less, that there are plenty of crypto-millionaires with money to blow, so it doesn't matter if - as I suggested - most people don't give enough of a shit to particpate in AP. The millionaires can fund it, and AP fixes everything! Or something :) I find it hard to believe...

...

So, you are admitting that you really wouldn't know if an AP market was in any way "dominated" by any group or another.  So, why didn't you say so before?  Why invent a phony objection that won't work?

And, neither would you know if it wasn't dominated, yeah? It would help if the word "dominated" was defined.  What I proposed, AP, would be a system that is available to all, with proper programmed guarantees that the system worked as proposed.  Open source, presumably.  Bettors would be assured that their bets would only be paid to the winning bettor(s), bettors would be assured that the bets would be paid if the prediction was made correctly.  All this requires a lot of software. That amount of programming might well have seemed imposing in 1995, but subsequent software projects (TOR, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Augur) show that this kind of project is doable.   "Dominated", I assume, could mean functioning but not by the principles of being available to everyone.  If you tried to make a given bet, and were somehow rejected, THAT might constitute the kind of obstruction that would be evidence of "domination".  

"Except by the outcome, which has to be inferred. So - if the government didn't collapse, but you started seeing deaths of high-level or up-and-coming corporate executives, and their critical researchers, etc, etc -  well, that would be a pretty reliable indicator that things were not going "as planned", I think."

No doubt that people will be paying close attention to these events.  

...

Once you do that, why not agree that only a very tiny percentage of the population would be necessary to start an AP system running.    A large percentage of the population is living on the government's tit:  Government employees, of course, , and welfare, etc.  Military contractors, also.   This money came from SOMEBODY.  Maybe such SOMEBODIES want that system to stop, now that they've learned about the AP concept.   But there is an additional possibility.

Maybe. Or maybe the CIA starts channeling money into AP to get rid of its "enemies", cuz the government is loaded too :P 

Initially, that might occur!  But remember, the function of a properly-implemented AP-type system will attack all heirarchical structures, at least those that involve involuntary factors.  (financed by robbed taxes, etc.)  Why will we need a "CIA" if people can kill off the upper levels of leadership in other, threatening countries?   The CIA itself will recognize that it (and any other public security organizations) will be simply unnecessary when AP has destroyed all governments.   Since the early 1980's, America (for just one example) has apparently been run by Executive Order 12333 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12333which contains a "Proscription on Assassination".  Probably sounded good, then.  But killing leaders is by far the most efficient way to stop organized evil activities, and by that I mean primarily action by governments.  Why would American government adopt such an order?   The answer was, and is, simple, and I explain it in my AP essay:  If WE can kill THEIR leaders, THEY can kill OUR leaders, as well.  And leaders have more in common with each other than with their own people.  OUR leaders were glad to tell THEIR leaders, 'We won't kill you, the leaders, if you won't kill our leaders.  Deal???'.    That's an agreement that all the world's leaders would gladly agree with.  

"I think you make the mistake of assuming that there is a sizable portion of the population that wouldn't simply cringe at the idea of AP, aside of course from the sociopaths that own the majority of the capital, and the governments that enable them. "

It doesn't matter if there is (initially) a "sizable portion of the population" which would cringe at AP.  Some would initially think of it merely as a "murder market".  Even I, for a very brief time in early January, 1995, saw it this way.  Maybe it lasted for about a hour.  But I quickly recognized that it would go after each government employee, and thus each government, every government, without exception.  A well-functioning AP system is simply incompatible with involuntary heirarchical structures, such as governments. I think that once people have had a chance to see that this is a very strong possibility, they will see that essentially all the negatives that governments engender will be eliminated.   I point out that governments killed 250 million people in the 20th century.  Was that somehow acceptable to people?  Is there any other solution to this ongoing problem, than AP?   I've never heard of one.  And for anybody who doesn't "like" AP, their most obvious response should be to invent another system that fixes the problems of today's world, but somehow avoids AP.     If somebody has done that, I haven't heard of it.  

Of course, I'm still fascinated to see it play out. The tech isn't there yet, despite all the hyperbole about Augur as AP.

It's getting there.  I'd hoped it would go much faster.   I'm glad to see that of the many articles engendered by this Ethereum/Augur/Forecast Foundation combination, few seem too alarmist and negative.  That's a major part of implementing AP:  Literally, TEACHING people what AP actually is, and would do.   What's been needed is a major public debate.  I am confident of the outcome, mostly because I haven't seen any opposing viewpoint that actually can explain how to solve the problems of government without AP. And, the public also needs to be told that it wouldn't be necessary to get "51%" of the population to agree to adopt AP:  Even if only a tiny fraction of the population, say 1%, chooses to use it, it will work quite well. The current Forecast Foundation betting system may still have limitations that would prevent their system from working as I anticipated AP would.  But I don't necessary view that as an error:  Those people have a major task ahead, ideally making the world's public 'comfortable' with an AP-type system.  A system which might be styled as a "scarecrow-AP" system would get people talking, even if it doesn't have an immediate prospect of causing assassinations to occur.  At some point, I think it will be clear to many people (10% of the population, I'd hope?) that AP would actually do what I proposed it would do.  Adoption at that point would be prompt.    Even better, at that point I think it will be difficult to find people to take government jobs.                                    Jim Bell

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 6:17:38 PM PDT, juan wrote: On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 19:06:10 +0000 (UTC) jim bell wrote:

...

I have explained, above, that even with the use of imaginative accountants, the "ultra wealthy" currently fund at least a large majority of (for example) America's Federal Government.  

 >   That is incorrect. The money that big  and hugely corrupt businesses pay in taxes come from consumers, not the 'rich' themselves. The rich don't pay taxes, the poor do.  A given dollar (not necessarily a physical, paper "Dollar") actually goes through many people.  Arguing over who paid a given "tax" is somewhat useless.  Who actually paid the most recent tax?  That's who paid the tax.  The consequences of paying that tax are arguable, which of course you want to do.  

From: Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2015 Update - Tax Foundation × "In contrast, the top 1 percent of all taxpayers (taxpayers with AGIs of $428,713 and above), earned 19.04 percent of all AGI in 2013, but paid 37.80 percent of all federal income taxes. In 2013, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined.Nov 19, 2015[end of quote]

...

For now, let's just consider that "top 1 percent of all taxpayers" who "paid 37.80% of all Federal income taxes.

    That same 1% got all sorts of benefits from the govt, starting with the fact that the government is the enabler of the corporatist system that made them 'wealthy' thieves.  But such people may be willing to decide, now, that they are not satisfied with the efficiency of that system.  Also, they are no necessarily some sort of homogeneous group.  Some might decide that the "cost" to them is too high, and they want to stop the system and get off the 'ride'.

...

  Do you think THEY believe that those taxes are being spent wisely?  No, they're not stupid, are they?  They know that money is being wasted. 

 >   Indeed they are not stupid. They know that they owe 'their' wealth to the govt, so the last thing they want to do is  go against their vital partner in crime.  Some may indeed believe that.  But many others might not.  In addition, many of them might see an AP system coming, and want to correct things in hopes of being treated more kindly.      

    All that said (again), if AP has a chance then the funding will have to come from honest people, not from the ultra rich, ultra corrupt and ultra criminal oligarchy that rules the planet.

To the contrary, I think the funding can come from anybody who has a motivation to do so.  

...

Except that he doesn't have a billion times more targets.  He doesn't know who to target, and will likely never learn, because AP is intended to be anonymous.   AP can be readily used to tear down governments and their oppression.  It cannot be easily used to oppress, if for no other reason that people who want to oppress don't know who to target.

 >   Yes, that makes sense, so it seems plausible that the statists won't use the AP system. Also, they may not want to use it because it is 'ilegal'. Although the government certainly do 'ilegal'(by their own standards) stuff, in this case, usign the AP system would be tantamout to admiting that they can't provide security even for themselves, so using it would be very bad publicity to say the least.  >   What the statists will do is attack the AP system using ordinary means like finding out who the users are, and killing them. While the ultra rich cheer. They can do that already, although not efficiently.

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:04 PM, jim bell wrote:

...

BTW, the US is well beyond bankrupt, search deficit and debt. That entire $700B, and more, could be seen as being funded by fake money.

That's a position which could be taken by people who think that the national debt will never be paid off. (Or, perhaps, SHOULD never be paid off!!) The problem is that debt is often owed to "ourselves". And, perhaps it could be paid off by selling all Federal lands in America.

The White House (Executive), US Capitol Building (Legislative), Temple of Justice (Judicial), and all those Monuments to Government in DC would indeed fetch a fine price at foreclosure auction.

We should all ask, too, is it a "legitimate" debt? That National debt may have been wasted, but the people loaning it to the Federal government did not, merely by that loaning, make it illegitimate.

Bankruptcy assets get distributed to shareholders. There's enough public land in US for each of its citizens to get an acre, enough building space to get an office, enough terabytes to get a computer, etc. Advertising that fact would bring about a mass debt call and foreclosure filing much sooner ;) There's also the concept of mutual debt cancellation, however as that resolves its way through the global system, it will likely be disruptive, and some creditors will still get stuck with empty bags in the end, leading to further debt recovery actions. Who will the bagholders be? And who will be indebted to them? You can find and post links to those research data.

I should also point out that I believe that one big reason that the "ultra wealthy" are ultra wealthy, is BECAUSE OF a big government, not IN SPITE OF a big government.

Laws favor the writer, the money, the lobbies. None of which the masses really partake in. Whereas business / wealthy can spot focus to keen effect.

The American federal government spends about 30x more money, per person, corrected for inflation, than it did in about 1925. Maybe THAT is where the wealth currently owned by the "ultra wealthy" actually came from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_the_United_States

Taxed and redistributed from... to crony biz, to taxor's selves and to its institution... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_land US land, State's land, County's land, City's land, all buildings, all vehicles, all inventory, assets, etc... Kings die when the stolen booty in their coffers becomes obvious and extravagant. (If you do end up with a piece of nature parkland, please don't be asshole planet thus human suiciders and fucking it up by introducing non nature upon it, or stealing from it.)

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 18:04:12 +0000 (UTC) jim bell wrote:  

...

grarpamp :

...

BTW, the US is well beyond bankrupt, search deficit and debt. That entire $700B, and more, could be seen as being funded by fake money.

That's a position which could be taken by people who think that the national debt will never be paid off.  (Or, perhaps, SHOULD never be paid off!!)   The problem is that debt is often owed to "ourselves".

Indeed it shouldn't be paid off and as to the 'owed to yourselves' line, it's kind of meaningless...

  And, perhaps it could be paid off by selling all Federal lands in America.  We should all ask, too, is it a "legitimate" debt?  That National debt may have been wasted, but the people loaning it to the Federal government did not, merely by that loaning, make it illegitimate. 

people who lend money to the US govt lend money to the biggest criminal organization on the planet and finance the murdering of children for fun and profit, among a long list of atrocities. As a matter of fact people who lend money to the US govt and so fund its crimes are accomplices. So there's no reason why they should get 'their' money back. Actually they should be partially liable for the crimes of the US govt. That said, no doubt whatever 'assets' the US govt and its 'private' contractors have should be expropriated and used to compensate the victims of government crimes. As to the 700,000 millions in military spending, that is indeed a huge incentive...for the system to perpetuate itself, not so much for people to act against it. No doubt the existence of the american military system is a *reason* for whatever sane people is left on the planet to do something against it, but as far as direct economic incentives go, they favor the west-point-ayn-rand-child-murdering* party, not the common sense morality party. The problem is, a well organized group can get a lot of resources by stealing a relatively small % from big numbers of people. Which is exactly how governments operate. So a relatively small well organized group of scum (i.e. government and corps) has the upper hand over a big disorganized group of subjects. * fascist 'philosophy' - who needs it - ayn rand http://fare.tunes.org/liberty/library/pwni.html