What is the value of the State?
This seems like a lame question, but What is the value of the State? Do activists require a State (defined as a codifed system of governance)? Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio? Computers? Mass Transit? Bikes? And if we need a State, what form should it take? Marxos
On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 23:37:06 +0000 "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
This seems like a lame question, but What is the value of the State?
pretty valuable, for statists.
Do activists require a State (defined as a codifed system of governance)?
pro-state activists seem like they may 'require' one...
Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio? Computers? Mass Transit? Bikes?
the obvious answer is...there's no point in providing the obvious answer because the question is irrelevant.
And if we need a State, what form should it take?
we don't
Marxos
On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 11:37:06PM +0000, \0xDynamite wrote:
This seems like a lame question, but What is the value of the State?
Centralisation of power. A sense of safety/security for sheeple. Touted ideals by the state which are difficult to claim/exercise because of the state, i.e. self delusion.
Do activists require a State (defined as a codifed system of governance)?
Some probably do. Perhaps most of them. Tells us a lot about activists.
Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio? Computers? Mass Transit? Bikes?
Yes. Absolutely yes.
And if we need a State, what form should it take?
We need only the state of our consciousness - internalisation of our authority, and that pesky, diabolical and sociopathic external authority, The State, will dissolve away as it should. But such an utopia is unlikely on this planet ... humans gotta lotta learnin ta do.
This seems like a lame question, but What is the value of the State?
Centralisation of power.
You can have a socialist state without centralization.
A sense of safety/security for sheeple.
But the state also makes insecurity: bigger wars, for example.
Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio? Computers? Mass Transit? Bikes?
Yes. Absolutely yes.
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car? From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc? Marxos
On 5/1/17, \0xDynamite <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
This seems like a lame question, but What is the value of the State?
Centralisation of power.
You can have a socialist state without centralization.
A sense of safety/security for sheeple.
But the state also makes insecurity: bigger wars, for example.
Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio? Computers? Mass Transit? Bikes?
Yes. Absolutely yes.
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car? From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc?
Marxos
On Mon, 1 May 2017 00:58:31 +0000 "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car? From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc?
are you trolling or what? Are you as ignorant as your question suggests you are, or is that supposed to be a didactical question?
Marxos
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car? From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc?
are you trolling or what? Are you as ignorant as your question suggests you are, or is that supposed to be a didactical question?
Juan, I know you're style. You don't know what you're talking about. You're fronting me as if you know how to answer the question, when you don't. \x
On Mon, 1 May 2017 01:08:34 +0000 "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car? From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc?
are you trolling or what? Are you as ignorant as your question suggests you are, or is that supposed to be a didactical question?
Juan,
I know you're style. You don't know what you're talking about.
dude - you don't even know the difference between "your" - possesive pronoun, and "you're" - contraction for "you are".
You're fronting me as if you know how to answer the question, when you don't.
what makes you think I don't know the answer? And why didn't you answer *my *question? Are you so stupid as to believe that 'a state' is needed to have division of labor? Really? Are you so INCREDIBLY IGNORANT? Do you think I know nothing about so called MARKET anarchism, when that's exactly the sort of political system I subscribe to? Why are you so fuckingly retarded as to even hint at the idea that the mafia - your state - is needed for people to be able to manufacture any sort of stuff?
\x
On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 12:58:31AM +0000, \0xDynamite wrote:
This seems like a lame question, but What is the value of the State?
Centralisation of power.
You can have a socialist state without centralization.
You're presuming value in "socialist state". When I said "one of the benefits of The State is centralisation of power" I was being ironic/sarcastic - apologies for the confusion, I was hoping my point suggesting our overwhelming need for internalisation of authority would set the record straight on "centralised authorities amassing power".
A sense of safety/security for sheeple.
But the state also makes insecurity: bigger wars, for example.
Exactly - that's why it's only a sense of safety "for sheeple". They don't think beyond "muh feels" and so don't see the irony in their implicit, rarely ever spoken feeling of "the state is good because it provides me security".
Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio? Computers? Mass Transit? Bikes?
Yes. Absolutely yes.
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car?
Humans have this funny habit of organising themselves, through conversation into action, to meet actual needs or desires. "Social animals" and all.. Seriously, the problem is not, has never been and never will be, lack of self-interest motivation to create trinkets and "wealth", sadly. The real question is whether our collective overwhelming existential desires are better put in their place in political anarchy, or political state of some form. The state, implying and indeed exercising coercion of lesser ("tolerable to many") and greater (tyranny by any standard) degrees, attracting sociopaths, evidently and unequivocally devolves to despotism. So I don't think we have much of an option at this point. We HAVE to try something other than The State.
From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc?
If asking this question in sincerity, a superficial (almost trivial) answer could be "well we've already got that shit, we don't need no stinkin state to keep making them!" BUT, such a superficial quip is likely counterproductive, since it papers over the fundamental misunderstanding of human nature, creativity and capacity, -and- leads to shitty rubbish retorts like "well it's just as well we had The State for the last 5K years then isn't it dumbass!?" which is rubbish, and nothing but misunderstanding. HTH clarify things..
On Mon, 1 May 2017 12:20:19 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
Humans have this funny habit of organising themselves, through conversation into action, to meet actual needs or desires. "Social animals" and all..
Seriously, the problem is not, has never been and never will be, lack of self-interest motivation to create trinkets and "wealth", sadly.
Indeed. So it's not lack of anarchic, self-organizing industry what we should 'fear' but the technological disasters that those industries create. Looks like the monkeys that compose the human race are too stupid to responsibily use the stupid (or murderous) toys created by highly stupid engineers who only care about making 'cool' stuff.
Fuck the system, suckas i diss them! - Mc Duke. On Mon, 1 May 2017, juan wrote:
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 00:00:26 -0300 From: juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org Subject: Re: What is the value of the State?
On Mon, 1 May 2017 12:20:19 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
Humans have this funny habit of organising themselves, through conversation into action, to meet actual needs or desires. "Social animals" and all..
Seriously, the problem is not, has never been and never will be, lack of self-interest motivation to create trinkets and "wealth", sadly.
Indeed. So it's not lack of anarchic, self-organizing industry what we should 'fear' but the technological disasters that those industries create.
Looks like the monkeys that compose the human race are too stupid to responsibily use the stupid (or murderous) toys created by highly stupid engineers who only care about making 'cool' stuff.
b0z0@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car?
Humans have this funny habit of organising themselves, through conversation into action, to meet actual needs or desires. "Social animals" and all..
Seriously, the problem is not, has never been and never will be, lack of self-interest motivation to create trinkets and "wealth", sadly.
Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't know how to approach the problem. \0x
On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 01:41:16PM +0000, \0xDynamite wrote:
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car?
Humans have this funny habit of organising themselves, through conversation into action, to meet actual needs or desires. "Social animals" and all..
Seriously, the problem is not, has never been and never will be, lack of self-interest motivation to create trinkets and "wealth", sadly.
Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't know how to approach the problem.
Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"? For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront - when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving 9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild heat rising through the spine. This, and an endless litany of examples I'm sure you could come up with, is adequately described by the term "confront". So when the individual is confronted, something is "going down" to use a colloquialism. Confront is therefore an actual identifier for "many things that could take books to describe". But, rather than spend books so describing and dissecting, can we take this confront, and do something useful with it? The journey of life, one's 'choices' and pathway through life are a very personal thing of course, but we have a fundamental collective problem: Most people want to not confront the bully, and are not aware that a little bit of individual action, done by many at a collective level, can shift "the problems instituted by our system/ The State etc" in very good ways. And as a side benefit, walking head first (but calmly) into those little confronts where really, truth ought be spoken to power, often leads to really enjoyable electrical flows and sensations in the body which may commonly be associated with the words happiness, joy, satisfaction and a deep and abiding peace and comfort. In this time of the bully running rampant (police, taxation, forced medical procedures, courts/legal bullying, etc) the opportunities for personal growth and personal discovery are truly abundant. :)
Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't know how to approach the problem.
Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"?
For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront - when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving 9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild heat rising through the spine.
The solution to this challenge is to be a better Statist than they are. That is, to know your law better, which (fortunately becuase of the IQ level of most cops) isn't that hard. Once you know your rigths and go through the hard knocks of jail time, you start to rise above it. That's how and why I've written HACK THE LAW. \0x
On Wed, May 03, 2017 at 01:29:35PM +0000, \0xDynamite wrote:
Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't know how to approach the problem.
Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"?
For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront - when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving 9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild heat rising through the spine.
The solution to this challenge is to be a better Statist than they are. That is, to know your law better, which (fortunately becuase of the IQ level of most cops) isn't that hard. Once you know your rigths and go through the hard knocks of jail time, you start to rise above it. That's how and why I've written HACK THE LAW.
Are you a lawyer, or a "jailhouse lawyer"? ;) The ridiculously over-zealous punitive nature of the legal system, at least in America, always has a massive bias against the individual. Essentially, you don't have any rights in America, and memorizing a bunch of random proscriptions might put you in a slightly better position than someone ignorant of the law, but then again it probably won't matter. Of course, if you have enough money, that's always a good way to get "justice".. ;) -- John
On Thu, May 4, 2017, at 4:29 PM, John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
Are you a lawyer, or a "jailhouse lawyer"? ;) The ridiculously over-zealous punitive nature of the legal system, at least in America, always has a massive bias against the individual. Essentially, you don't have any rights in America, and memorizing a bunch of random proscriptions might put you in a slightly better position than someone ignorant of the law, but then again it probably won't matter.
Of course, if you have enough money, that's always a good way to get "justice".. ;)
Owwooooooooo... ;D Ah, the lovely howlings of lawyers in love! :D You need to remember that lawyers are humans too, John. Some more human than others, but we are usually interesting creatures. We can live without hearts and souls. Well, some people - famous examples in this list, cof cof! - can do the same without brains! :) ====== "Lawyers in Love" - Jackson Browne https://youtu.be/BEULVyg1O_8 I can't keep up with what's been going on I think my heart must just be slowing down Among the human beings in their designer jeans Am I the only one who hears the screams And the strangled cries of lawyers in love God sends his spaceships to America, the beautiful They land at six o'clock and there we are, the dutiful Eating from TV trays, tuned into to Happy Days Waiting for World War III while Jesus slaves To the mating calls of lawyers in love Last night I watched the news from Washington, the capitol The Russians escaped while we weren't watching them, like Russians will Now we've got all this room, we've even got the moon And I hear the U.S.S.R. will be open soon As vacation land for lawyers in love ======= Yeah, this song and its video suck a lot, hahaha!! Sorry for the prank, dear! :D This bonus, instead, is cute, very beautiful and has almost everything that Trump hates: beauty, music, ballet dancers, drag queens, trans models, Muslims, black and Latin people, LGBT, colors, love hearts, flowers, laugh, light.... ;) * MAKE LOVE NOT WALLS: - https://youtu.be/COXx3YTNW1s Ah, still talking about hacking laws and governments, the Brazilian law giving to immigrants the same rights than our people will be probably approved in the next week. There are some extremist right groups whining and barking, but... Meh, just more xenophobia, ignorance, prejudices, people talking against Muslims. Hope Allah forgive them! We need more love, more freedom, fewer borders! ;) Kisses and Hugs!!! <3 Ceci, still bad... I left the hospital yesterday night (yep, again, I am not original) and I will probably not be at CryptoRave this weekend. Ow, I will need someone to get my gifts! :( ------- "Don't let anyone rob you of your imagination, your creativity, or your curiosity. It's your place in the world; it's your life. Go on and do all you can with it, and make it the life you want to live." - Mae Jemison
PS for Georgi, who likes to celebrate special dates! May the 4th be with you, yayyy!!! :D
On Apr 30, 2017, at 8:58 PM, \0xDynamite <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
This seems like a lame question, but What is the value of the State?
Centralisation of power.
You can have a socialist state without centralization.
A sense of safety/security for sheeple.
But the state also makes insecurity: bigger wars, for example.
Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio? Computers? Mass Transit? Bikes?
Yes. Absolutely yes.
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car? From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc?
Marxos
A lawyer, a doctor, someone who has single handedly rewritten the laws of evolution (something about humans being around before apes, or some crazy shit?)... but sadly it seems you reach your limits at political theory.
On 2017-05-01 10:58, \0xDynamite wrote:
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car? From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc?
Anarcho socialists and anarcho communists have provided vague and evasive answers on this question, which answers I interpret as saying the central planning committee will command what is to be produced and ration what is to be consumed, as in Soviet Russia or today's Venezuela and North Korea. And if you do not produce as directed, or if you attempt to consume more than allotted, off to the gulag you go. Aside from not being very anarchistic, this does not work very well. The planners strangle themselves in red tape and when you go to collect your bread ration, there is no bread. Google Venezuela bread. Anarcho capitalists of course have a simple and obvious solution, and, for a change, will actually tell you their solution: Which is that the rich capitalist purchases the resources needed to build a car, purchases or builds the tools necessary to build a car, hires people to build cars, and tells them what to do. In this model all rights are property rights, and if you violate someone's property rights, private security takes care of you. With the rise of the reactionary right, there is now also an anarcho feudalist movement, which proposes feudalism with a weak king appointed from time to time by a board composed of or representing the aristocracy. Sounds awfully like an electoral republic with a restricted franchise, but the difference is that aristocrats make local laws and administer local justice. Now I am sure that anarcho socialists can point out all sorts of horrid problems with other variants of anarchism, but when there is no bread, no one is going to worry about those problems. The failure of socialism tends to be more fundamental and less abstract.
On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 02:57:02PM +1000, James A. Donald wrote:
On 2017-05-01 10:58, \0xDynamite wrote:
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car? From ore, to smelting steel, to engineering, to molding, to paints, batteries, upholstery and textiles, etc?
Anarcho socialists and anarcho communists have provided vague and evasive answers on this question, which answers I interpret as saying the central planning committee will command what is to be produced and ration what is to be consumed, as in Soviet Russia or today's Venezuela and North Korea. And if you do not produce as directed, or if you attempt to consume more than allotted, off to the gulag you go.
Sounds like communism - I've never heard of "anarcho communism" and that sounds like an oxymoron.
Aside from not being very anarchistic, this does not work very well. The planners strangle themselves in red tape and when you go to collect your bread ration, there is no bread. Google Venezuela bread.
Political anarchy however presupposes a strange concept called "free will", and so that little "off to the gulag" bit doesn't mesh with anything (AIUI) that could be associated with anarchism.
Anarcho capitalists of course have a simple and obvious solution, and, for a change, will actually tell you their solution: Which is that the rich capitalist purchases the resources needed to build a car, purchases or builds the tools necessary to build a car, hires people to build cars, and tells them what to do. In this model all rights are property rights, and if you violate someone's property rights, private security takes care of you.
Well this sounds straightforward on the surface, but there's an unspoken unintended-by-you deception (courtesy The State's ministry of truth and TPTB marketing speak), which is the concept of "property". If I build or buy some machinery, do you agree that I have: - the right to use that machinery - the right to protect that machinery - the right to exclude others from using that machinery ?? Now, assuming these "physical" property rights is what most anarchists who comprehend the term would accept as foundations of anarchy. The problem is the predatorial intention which "created" non-physical "property rights" and used the machinery of "the democratic state" to institute punishment for violation of said purported "property rights", namely copyright, trademarks and patents, which are all mere virtual or intellectual constructions and "agreement", and are not based in physical reality other than by that agreement, or rather enforcement and "punishment according to statute" for violation. Enforcement of these virtual "property rights" is insidious, anti-community, anti-abundance, and anti-freedom. It is nothing but the despotism of those with the power to so enforce. This discussion, to be useful, must absolutely distinguish these to types of "property rights" - conflating them is in the interests of TPTB and is antithetical to political anarchy. Next, "anarcho capitalism" is the term used by those who wish to either disparage political anarchy, or highlight what are its presumed problems. To have an objective conversation we must identify and or remove unspoken biases from the phrases we use, and to this end, the term "anarcho syndicalism" speaks hopefully more accurately to this concept: - humans have a right to associate, to syndicate, by their own free will and agreement - that is, humans have the right to work together, or to work in any arrangement of employer/employee that they so choose To have anything work well, be it The State, political anarchy and syndicalism or any other construct, requires humans to be educated. In all cases, whilst they are uneducated and or unwilling or unable to get educated or unable or unwilling to move towards better relationships/ syndications/ agreements/ contracts, than problems will continue, and usually continue to get worse, so education is paramount to any "better future".
With the rise of the reactionary right, there is now also an anarcho feudalist movement, which proposes feudalism with a weak king appointed from time to time by a board composed of or representing the aristocracy. Sounds awfully like an electoral republic with a restricted franchise, but the difference is that aristocrats make local laws and administer local justice.
And anarchists say "fine, let people submit to whatever king/ benevolent dictator or otherwise, but let them withdraw from such submission at any time they choose", which leads to the thought: the only "unlawful" contract or agreement is one which states, or implies, that there is no right to exit the contract under reasonable and reasonably possible (actualisable), terms. This also reiterates the necessity for humans to be educated and willing enough to act in self interest and not enter any contracts nor agreements which proclaim such "fundamentally unlawful" terms.
Now I am sure that anarcho socialists can point out all sorts of horrid problems with other variants of anarchism, but when there is no bread, no one is going to worry about those problems.
Indeed, without food, most humans readily submit to any tyranny promising bread.
The failure of socialism tends to be more fundamental and less abstract.
What's truly insidious is that at the present point in time, the majority of humans on this planet are caused to acquiesce to tyranny, without their conscious awareness that they are so acquiescing. Acquiescence is tacit consent. Tacit consent is default or implicit consent. Consent is agreement, be it consciously affirmative (by word or deed) or unconscious and tacit/ implicit. Seriously we need better education of humans, and less schooling of robots. Regards,
participants (8)
-
\0xDynamite -
b0z0＠SDF.ORG -
Cecilia Tanaka -
Douglas Lucas -
James A. Donald -
John Newman -
juan -
Zenaan Harkness