----- Forwarded message from Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@panix.com> ----- Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 15:36:33 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@panix.com> To: Eugen Leitl <eugen@leitl.org> Cc: cryptography@randombit.net Subject: Re: [cryptography] Random number generation influenced, HW RNG User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) On Sat, Sep 07, 2013 at 09:05:33PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:

This pretty much rules out CPU-integral RNGs. It has to be a third-party add-on (USB or PCIe), and it has to be open hardware.

I think you take this more than a little too far. I see CPU-integral RNGs as very valuable source to be mixed with other sources in a software pool of entropy. Why should we reject them, unless we think the mixing functions themselves are useless? The lesson here seems to me to be that we should be far more assiduous in seeking out additional sources of entropy and in always ensuring software RNGs mix input from multiple such sources into all output. We should abandon sacred cows like the notion of information-theoretic randomness (that we don't actually know how to measure, but in pursuit of which we hamstring our software RNGs by arranging that they refuse to produce any output unless, by some questionable criterion, there is enough of it) and pursue engineering goals we can actually achieve, like mixing enough other-source input, of whatever quality, with the output of fast generators we can no longer trust that the adversary must actually attack the mixing function, rather than iteratively guessing the few state bits he does not already know. Secondarily -- and sadly! -- we must now be very suspicious of devices that integrate random number generation and encryption. Can we even trust raw hardware RNG output for the generation of IVs? I would argue not, because the same device's AES engine could be leaking key bits into our explicit IVs, etc, and we couldn't ever know. Devices that offload packet processing in its entirety (SSL accellerators, IPsec accellerators, etc.) have even more opportunity to do this sort of thing. Hardware crypto offload may still be very useful -- random number generation perhaps in particular -- but we will have to apply it with extreme care, and with a deliberate eye towards eliminating covert channels put in place by people at least as smart as we are, and with far more time and experience thinking about the problem from the offensive point of view. Finally, we have to accept that the game might just be over, period. So you use a pure software RNG, mixing in RdRand output or not as you may prefer. How hard do you think it is to identify the datastructures used by that RNG if you can execute code on a coprocessor with access to host RAM? Almost every modern server has such a coprocessor built in (its management processor) and you won't find the source code to its firmware floating around. Intel even puts this functionality directly on its CPUs (Intel AMT). Rather than beating up on the guy who put a lovely RNG instruction into every processor we're likely to use any time soon, it seems to me we ought to be beating up on ourselves for ignoring far simpler and more obvious risks like this one for well over a decade. Seriously, show of hands, who here has ever really put his or her foot down and insisted that a product they were purchasing _omit_ such functionality? Not chosen not to pay for it, refused to buy server X or mainboard Y simply on the basis that management processor functionality was onboard? Now, compare to the number of people complaining about backdoored RNGs here and elsewhere on the Internet. Go figure. To me the interesting question, but one to which I don't expect to ever know the answer, is whether the adversary -- having, we can assume, identified high value devices to systematically compromise, and lower value devices to defer for later or simply ignore entirely -- went at those devices sniper-style, or shotgun-style. Were a few key opportunities for tampering identified, and one or two attempted against each targeted device? Or were a wide variety of avenues explored, and every single one that seemed relevant attempted everywhere, or at least against certain particularly high value devices? If we knew that, in a way we might know, when we did finally see concrete evidence of a particular kind of tampering, how long to keep looking for more. But we aren't going to know that, no matter how much we might want to. Attacks on crypto hardware, attacks on management processors, attacks on supervisory or trusted execution modes seldom exercised in normal system operation, attacks on flash modules holding boot code, so that under the right circumstances they replace page P with evil page P', attacks on elements of IC vendors' standard cell libraries (DMA engines would seem promising); assume the adversaries are smart, and good at their jobs, and the sky would seem to be the limit. The sky will fall, of course, when various nation-states' agencies really start digging for the holes punched in all of our security by the agencies of others (not my own observation, I should note). Too much of this stuff will become all-too-common knowledge. It's going to be quite a ride. But I see no reason to beat up on hardware random number generators *in particular*. They are, at least, tools we may still be able to figure out how to use in a safe way. Thor ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B 47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5