On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 3:33 PM, rysiek wrote:

Dnia niedziela, 18 stycznia 2015 02:36:09 grarpamp pisze:

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What of political license / subscription to theory, and actual politiking like Pirate Party?

Politics breeds compromise, usually. THat's the problem. there are very few people that are able to stay in politics yet not compromise and keep their integrity.

Yes. However it would at the same time be effectively true to say that there are no electeds anywhere holding some cypherpunk knowledge and politik as part of their internal thought base, therefore no chance to espouse and inject that even if under compromise. ie: look how many elected truly 'get' computers or the internet. Or court in DPR case that has to struggle with basic stuff. Cypherpunks for elected reps! Where's the retired cypherpunks anyways? We have a job for you...

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 11:33 AM, rysiek wrote:

have a look at Julia Reda in the European Parliament; Pirate Party (not a huge fan of the Pirates, but still, closest to Cypherpunks as you can get right now). Before there was Amelia Andersdotter. Sometimes all you need is to look around a bit.

Yes and I did say effectively as in a couple MPs may be of muted influence... if you put 2 pro voices, 8 moderate voices and 90 antis in a room (or any other best conceivable odds at internal psyche on fringe issues like crypto rights) you're unlikely to get much done other than arduously slow education. On the other hand if getting on the ballot with a new platform is relatively easy you can flood that with candidates and see what happens. Either way, good thing is that we actually are now nearing a point where odds of an elected having been exposed to computers as an innate user and even some of these issues[1] their whole life are getting better. Due to this maybe in another 10 years there will be an inflection and it'll just happen. Till then we need more people strategically moving in, ie... https://freestateproject.org/ Just know that the other side is moving theirs in too so you have to beat the race. Right now is a good time to do it because the only ones really steeped in these issues are the original internet users (or the young github/twitter activist generation), you wait and will get washed out by the general masses coming online behind you as future candidates, then your trusted voice "hey this MP knows CPU's, lets ask her" is dimished before you can steer any 10/20/50 year guidance into things. [1] Like having personally used bittorrent, stumbled across github, maybe followed a link to the EFF, etc... actual knowledge beyond consumer use of internet.

That's one of the reasons ACTA got killed in the EU. Amelia Andersdotter, among a few others, was doing an amazing job in the EuroParliament around this topic.

Indeed, the Pirates are seriously punching above their weight in terms of influence in EU. So much so that the other "mainstream" parties have started adopting pirate policies to greater/lesser extents; this actually lead to a drop in pirate votes, but on balance it's a good sign. Now, Julia Reda is in charge of the draft proposals for copyright reform in the EU. They put a pirate in charge of that. And, she's done broad consultations through net and otherwise, she's publicised every visit from lobbyists, and she's released an evidence-heavy report with recommendations for serious reform; not the hardcore pirate outcome, but something no other kind of EU politician would have come out with. Amelia and Julia are rockstars. I've been waiting and poking for a Pirate Party in Ireland to form so I can try and send more quality MEPs over to Brussels but we always lag behind on my island. :) On 20/01/15 20:36, rysiek wrote:

Dnia wtorek, 20 stycznia 2015 14:49:06 grarpamp pisze:

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On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 11:33 AM, rysiek wrote:

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have a look at Julia Reda in the European Parliament; Pirate Party (not a huge fan of the Pirates, but still, closest to Cypherpunks as you can get right now). Before there was Amelia Andersdotter. Sometimes all you need is to look around a bit.

Yes and I did say effectively as in a couple MPs may be of muted influence... if you put 2 pro voices, 8 moderate voices and 90 antis in a room (or any other best conceivable odds at internal psyche on fringe issues like crypto rights) you're unlikely to get much done other than arduously slow education.

That's one of the reasons ACTA got killed in the EU. Amelia Andersdotter, among a few others, was doing an amazing job in the EuroParliament around this topic.

Do not underestimate the power of a few well-motivated free radicals.

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On the other hand if getting on the ballot with a new platform is relatively easy you can flood that with candidates and see what happens.

Go for it.

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On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 20:09:46 +0100 rysiek wrote:

but I think that even a small positive change in the copyright regime in the EU would be a huge step forward.

But it isn't. Small 'reforms' are one of the fundamental pilars of conservatism. You are playing into their hands.

And there is no way we're going to make any large changes, not with IFPI, ZAiKS and other "MAFIAA"'s of the EU.

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Amelia and Julia are rockstars. I've been waiting and poking for a Pirate Party in Ireland to form so I can try and send more quality MEPs over to Brussels but we always lag behind on my island. :)

Sadly, the Polish Pirate Party is a joke: http://rys.io/en/119

So be careful what you wish for.

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 03:56:02AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:

Cypherpunks for elected reps! Where's the retired cypherpunks anyways? We have a job for you...

I am very sceptical about this happening. About 99.999% of the voters are pure sheeple. Just a bit of media manipulation and selected excerpts of this list might marginalize the term "cypherpunk". Pirate Party gives the sheeple porn/music for free AFAICT. What can you trade to sheeple for their votes? Just wait economically enslaved sheeple got hurt and then tell them "We told you so". The political situation in Greece appears to support this. OFFTOPIC: vvvvvvvv I have lived long enough in advanced socialism (AKA communism) and alleged democracy. The politicians are essentially the same IMHO. It is hard for me to tell which implementation sucks more.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 4:41 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

Just a bit of media manipulation and selected excerpts of this list might marginalize the term "cypherpunk".

Cypherpunk become savvy media manipulator too like politicians. At least this list has evidence of inteligient rational applied thought to pull from, where a lot of born poiticians are just greasy things that care not for problems but for themselves.

Pirate Party gives the sheeple porn/music for free AFAICT. What can you trade to sheeple for their votes?

The ability, through crypto networks, for them to do that anonymously without having to worry much any longer about MAFIA breathing down their IP addresses. They are a aware of mafia, they don't like mafia. Cypherpunk is PP backup 2.0 there for them if PP doesn't work to make actual free things there. You can also give them power and encrypt all the things to counter this spying stuff they hear on the news.

Just wait economically enslaved sheeple got hurt and then tell them "We told you so".

This usually doesn't carry weight for you at that point because the battle you proposed to fight back then has already crumbled away and devolved into a more pressing and different problem now.

On 01/29/2015 02:41 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote: <SNIP>

I have lived long enough in advanced socialism (AKA communism) and alleged democracy.

With some exceptions (batshit crazy ideologues, for the most part) communism in practice has basically been kleptocracy. Ditto for democracy (whether capitalist or socialist). Powerful just distract sheeple in different ways.

The politicians are essentially the same IMHO.

In my experience, yes.

It is hard for me to tell which implementation sucks more.

They all suck. So it goes.

On 01/30/2015 04:01 AM, Goran Novak wrote:

On 30/01/2015 11:40 AM, Mirimir wrote:

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With some exceptions (batshit crazy ideologues, for the most part) communism in practice has basically been kleptocracy. Ditto for democracy (whether capitalist or socialist). Powerful just distract sheeple in different ways.

Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often with pretense of honest service. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleptocracy

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is a socioeconomic system structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and characterized by the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state; as well as a social, political and economic ideology and movement that aims to establish this social order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Communism has not been ever put to practice.

Yes, that was my point. I should have said "alleged communism" and "alleged democracy".

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The politicians are essentially the same IMHO. In my experience, yes.

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It is hard for me to tell which implementation sucks more. They all suck. So it goes.

I have to agree that these days I don't see elections, as currently performed, as being effective at representing the population. Case in point, here in Ireland we have Proportional Representation, which helps to prevent a two-party system and means that we are more likely to achieve a voting outcome that satisfies (or dissatisfies) the most people; a compromise, instead of a strategically voted least-worst. However, we still have the problem that only a wealthy person can run for office, in the same way that only a wealthy person can take the risk of "boot-strapping" a company or take any comparable risk. So, only wealthy people get represented, and thus regular or disadvantaged people get little representation. Far better, I think, to take a statistically relevant sample of the population on a rolling basis: Liquid Sortition. If I had my way, one of our houses of government would be pure liquid sortition, the other would be a form of liquid democracy, and instead of a president we'd call a large jury for each legislative change that might require constitutional oversight. But I won't get my way. :) On 05/03/15 20:32, grarpamp wrote:

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Douglas Lucas wrote:

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So skip the establishment. ... Democracy sucks: individuals can't represent groups and vice versa.

For some, the NULL is just as valid an answer to the political question. A hard thing to achieve as it is nature of humanity to group in things, including politic.

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On Thu, 05 Mar 2015 13:46:15 -0600 Douglas Lucas (sarcastically) wrote:

There are people who accept that the JFK assassination was a US domestic coup

I accept that the Banker's Coup against FDR (exposed by Smedley Butler of "War is a Racket" fame) culminated in part as the assassination of JFK. Even as he was speaking the words (paraphrase) 'There are dark forces seeking to overthrow our way of life and I'm going to get to the bottom of it before...' my mother was receiving the very first 'revolving charge cards'. Now better known as "Credit Cards". Before that time they were referred to as "Charge Plates" and the companies issuing them expected PAYMENT IN FULL at EOM. Those revolving charge cards, which were sent en masse without request to damn near every adult in the US were credit check free. All you had to do was USE it and it was yours... To buy any shiny thing the burgeoning advertising industry was offering, and the user got locked into an insidious form of economic slavery... Typically for the rest of their consumerist lives. My mother was always cutting the cards into confetti and sending them back to the companies, but eventually, like almost every American, she succumbed. Between the banking industry for whom revolving charge accounts were a godsend in the way of permanently ongoing interest charged to almost every adult American, which I suspect was the instrument of the "Dark Force" in JFK's words I paraphrased in the first paragraph, the CIA... still enraged (along with the Cuban Gusanos they fronted for, and continue to assist up to this very day) by JFK's failure to provide air support to the Bay of Pigs invaders leading to the failure of the invasion, and the MAFIA, who lost their rum-running-Whorehouse operation on Cuba because of that failed invasion, JFK made some mighty powerful enemies any of whom could have EASILY arranged his assassination. In the good ol' days Presidents even rode around in convertibles. About the Mafia's rum-running FOB/whorehouse, Cuba... https://archive.org/details/tth_080219

On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 00:56:15 +0100 rysiek wrote:

Dnia czwartek, 5 marca 2015 13:46:15 Douglas Lucas pisze:

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What I find hilarious is that there are people who accept that the JFK assassination was a US domestic coup, that the dark arts of marketers' psychological manipulation is near-infinite in power, etc., but still think the authorities are too dumb to figure out how to stop the citizenry from voting them out.

What I find hilarious is that there are people who accept that that the dark arts of marketers' psychological manipulation is near-infinite in power, etc., but still think the authorities are too dumb to figure out a way to handle a bunch of radicals.

No, seriously, you can't have it both ways.

What? There's no contradiction in that paragraph. And of course you flatly ignored his previous comments about how the establishment has 'realists' like you working for them, whether you're on their payroll or not.

Either "Teh Establishment" is all- powerful, or it isn't.

The establishmet is all powerful at their game. So the solution is to not play their game. I suggest you first make sure you UNDERSTAND what someone said before trying to criticize it.

If it is, we're all fucked anyway. If it isn't, there's more than one way to try to make the world a better place.