Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets
Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets | Instead of using websites on the darknet, merchants are now | operating invite-only channels on widely available mobile | messaging systems like Telegram. | ... | The other major change is the use of “dead drops” instead | of the postal system which has proven vulnerable to tracking | and interception. | ... | Furthermore this method does not require for the customer | to give any personally identifiable information to the | merchant, which in turn doesn’t have to safeguard it | anymore. Less data means less risk for everyone. | ... | Instead of the flat hierarchies witnessed with darknet | markets, merchants today employ hierarchical structures | again. These consist of procurement layer, sales layer, | and distribution layer. The people constituting each layer | usually do not know the identity of the higher layers nor | are ever in personal contact with them. All interaction | is digital - messaging systems and cryptocurrencies again, | product moves only through dead drops. | ... | This concept of using messaging, cryptocurrency and dead | drops even within the merchant structure allows for the | members within each layer being completely isolated from | each other, and not knowing anything about higher layers | at all. There is no trace to follow if a distribution | layer member is captured while servicing a dead drop. | He will often not even be distinguishable from a regular | customer. This makes these structures extremely secure | against infiltration, takeover and capture. They are | inherently resilient. | ... | If members of such a structure are captured they usually | have no critical information to share, no information about | persons, places, times of meeting. No interaction that | would make this information necessary ever takes place. https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/ Nice. It's cool to see serious tradecraft applied to this stuff. Especially compartmentalization. And yes, using traditional shipping systems is a serious problem for old-school dark markets. I've thought off and on for several years about the potential for using dead drops with accurate GPS. I mean, geocaching. Many years ago, when I was dealing LSD, it was pretty common to use dead drops. But then, they were typically rental lockers in bus and train stations. I agree that ubiquitous surveillance is a problem. However, it's ~clueless customers and low-level distributors who'll most likely get pwned. And they won't know anything importnt about the operation overall. Anyway, time will tell.
On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 7:44:21 PM PST, Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote: Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/
Nice. It's cool to see serious tradecraft applied to this stuff. Especially compartmentalization.
And yes, using traditional shipping systems is a serious problem for old-school dark markets. I've thought off and on for several years about the potential for using dead drops with accurate GPS. I mean, geocaching. Many years ago, when I was dealing LSD, it was pretty common to use dead drops. But then, they were typically rental lockers in bus and train stations.
I agree that ubiquitous surveillance is a problem. However, it's ~clueless customers and low-level distributors who'll most likely get pwned. And they won't know anything importnt about the operation overall.
Yes, I am also quite impressed at the amount of thought that has been put into this concept, see the link above. I would be quite interested in helping in designing these systems, as I have been following some of the necessary technologies for years. I foresee a stiff plastic or metal pipe, tapered to a point at one end, which can be driven by force into soil or into a lawn, so that it ends up to be approximately flush with the plane of the soil. Once placed, a smaller cylindrical container, as well as active elements, if needed, can be slid into the metal pipe, from above.
From the linked article: https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/ "This challenge is met by Dropgangs in various ways. The primary one is that the documentation of each dead drop is conducted in minute detail, covering GPS coordinates, photos of the surrounding and the location, as well as photos of the concealment device in which the product is hidden (such as an empty coke can). The documentation however increases the risk for the Dropgang since whoever creates it would be more easy to identify by surveillance. In addition, even great documentation still requires the customer to understand it and follow it precisely, which can lead to suspicious behavior around the dead drop location (staring at photos, visually comparing them to the surrounding, etc)." [end of partial quote]
Ordinarily, smartphones that use GPS, don't use accurizing features, such as WAAS. (Wide Area Augmentation System). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System WAAS correction data is probably already available on the Internet. "Accuracy[edit] The WAAS specification requires it to provide a position accuracy of 7.6 metres (25 ft) or less (for both lateral and vertical measurements), at least 95% of the time.[2] Actual performance measurements of the system at specific locations have shown it typically provides better than 1.0 metre (3 ft 3 in) laterally and 1.5 metres (4 ft 11 in) vertically throughout most of the contiguous United States and large parts of Canada and Alaska.[3] With these results, WAAS is capable of achieving the required Category I precision approach accuracy of 16 metres (52 ft) laterally and 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) vertically. [end of partial quote] WAAS might be described as a form of differential GPS. If the location as computed by the smartphone was improved by WAAS, the statement above indicates an accuracy within about 1 meter. IR-specific retroreflectors to greatly simplify things. The article describes complicated systems using Bluetooth or WiFi to help locate these dead-drops. While they are certainly innovative, they add cost and complexity to the hardware involved. I have thought of a much-cheaper system that I feel is sufficiently secure and simple for common use. Light-retroreflectors are commonly made from Scotchlite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroreflective_sheeting or plastic molded corner-cubes. If a rather small (say, 1/4 in diameter) sphere covered with retroreflector material was held up from the insert, possibly by a short, thin stiff wire, the sphere could be visible, but not excessively obvious even during the daylight. It would be easy to find this device with a flashlight in the dark. For added security, an infrared-transmitting plastic (such as is often used to cover IR-activating remote controls, such as https://www.eplastics.com/plexiglass/acrylic-sheets/ir-transmitting ) could be used to ensure that only IR is retroreflected back to a searcher. Ordinary smart-phone camera arrays are not only sensitive to human-visible light (generally described as 400-700 nanometer wavelength), but are also sensitive to near-IR wavelengths. If a smartphone camera was combined with a directional IR LED, substituting for the white light LED lamp used for photography, and aiming in the same direction, a user would be able to see (through the camera display) the IR-specific reflections from an IR-limited retroreflector, and this would probably be doable both during the day and at night. A person operating such a camera would "look like" he was doing photography, or perhaps playing a game. Somebody watching, even at night, could not see the IR. The IR 'searchlight' could be a narrow-beam device, perhaps with a full-angle of 16 degrees or so (typical for a narrow-beam IR LED), so it wouldn't be particularly obvious even if watched through an IR viewer. (If the IR LED itself was shielded from direct view.) One advantage of this technique is that the searcher could identify the target from a very long distance away, perhaps many tens of meters, and thus approach it in a more "innocent" fashion. No obvious "searching" would have to be performed in the open. And, the person who placed the dead drop could ascertain its status without later needing to approach it closely. This technique could be combined with Bluetooth or WiFi techniques, too. The retroreflector could normally be retracted, and only raised if the proper Bluetooth or WiFi signal was heard. Or, perhaps, the target would contain an exposed IR LED, which would activate from an battery only if the proper signals were heard. The resulting dead-drop would be virtually impossible to find. Jim Bell ×
The cryptographic artifacts are currently based on inexpensive, off-the-shelf, devices. The passive WiFi mode is ingenious. One problem, AFAIK, with the commercial devices I found is the absence if a RTC (I think these can be soldered, carefully, onto the PCB) without which power consumption if too high and standby times too short. As for LiFi, the commercial technologies have been focused on visible light frequencies (so as to combine lighting and communications in one device). If LEDs were developed emitting in ozone absorption bands they could operate in sunlight, something current LiFi cannot. On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 11:46 PM jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 7:44:21 PM PST, Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote:
Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets
https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/
Nice. It's cool to see serious tradecraft applied to this stuff. Especially compartmentalization.
And yes, using traditional shipping systems is a serious problem for old-school dark markets. I've thought off and on for several years about the potential for using dead drops with accurate GPS. I mean, geocaching. Many years ago, when I was dealing LSD, it was pretty common to use dead drops. But then, they were typically rental lockers in bus and train stations.
I agree that ubiquitous surveillance is a problem. However, it's ~clueless customers and low-level distributors who'll most likely get pwned. And they won't know anything importnt about the operation overall.
Yes, I am also quite impressed at the amount of thought that has been put into this concept, see the link above. I would be quite interested in helping in designing these systems, as I have been following some of the necessary technologies for years.
I foresee a stiff plastic or metal pipe, tapered to a point at one end, which can be driven by force into soil or into a lawn, so that it ends up to be approximately flush with the plane of the soil. Once placed, a smaller cylindrical container, as well as active elements, if needed, can be slid into the metal pipe, from above.
From the linked article: https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/
"This challenge is met by Dropgangs in various ways. The primary one is that the documentation of each dead drop is conducted in minute detail, covering GPS coordinates, photos of the surrounding and the location, as well as photos of the concealment device in which the product is hidden (such as an empty coke can). The documentation however increases the risk for the Dropgang since whoever creates it would be more easy to identify by surveillance. In addition, even great documentation still requires the customer to understand it and follow it precisely, which can lead to suspicious behavior around the dead drop location (staring at photos, visually comparing them to the surrounding, etc)." [end of partial quote]
Ordinarily, smartphones that use GPS, don't use accurizing features, such as WAAS. (Wide Area Augmentation System).
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System
WAAS correction data is probably already available on the Internet. "Accuracy[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wide_Area_Augmentation_System&action=edit§ion=2> ] The WAAS specification requires it to provide a position accuracy of 7.6 metres (25 ft) or less (for both lateral and vertical measurements), at least 95% of the time.[2] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System#cite_note-WASSspec-2> Actual performance measurements of the system at specific locations have shown it typically provides better than 1.0 metre (3 ft 3 in) laterally and 1.5 metres (4 ft 11 in) vertically throughout most of the contiguous United States <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiguous_United_States> and large parts of Canada <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada> and Alaska <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska>.[3] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System#cite_note-WAAS_NSTB_PAN_Report_Jul06-3> With these results, WAAS is capable of achieving the required Category I precision approach accuracy of 16 metres (52 ft) laterally and 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) vertically. [end of partial quote]
WAAS might be described as a form of differential GPS. If the location as computed by the smartphone was improved by WAAS, the statement above indicates an accuracy within about 1 meter.
IR-specific retroreflectors to greatly simplify things.
The article describes complicated systems using Bluetooth or WiFi to help locate these dead-drops. While they are certainly innovative, they add cost and complexity to the hardware involved. I have thought of a much-cheaper system that I feel is sufficiently secure and simple for common use.
Light-retroreflectors are commonly made from Scotchlite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroreflective_sheeting or plastic molded corner-cubes. If a rather small (say, 1/4 in diameter) sphere covered with retroreflector material was held up from the insert, possibly by a short, thin stiff wire, the sphere could be visible, but not excessively obvious even during the daylight. It would be easy to find this device with a flashlight in the dark. For added security, an infrared-transmitting plastic (such as is often used to cover IR-activating remote controls, such as https://www.eplastics.com/plexiglass/acrylic-sheets/ir-transmitting ) could be used to ensure that only IR is retroreflected back to a searcher.
Ordinary smart-phone camera arrays are not only sensitive to human-visible light (generally described as 400-700 nanometer wavelength), but are also sensitive to near-IR wavelengths. If a smartphone camera was combined with a directional IR LED, substituting for the white light LED lamp used for photography, and aiming in the same direction, a user would be able to see (through the camera display) the IR-specific reflections from an IR-limited retroreflector, and this would probably be doable both during the day and at night. A person operating such a camera would "look like" he was doing photography, or perhaps playing a game. Somebody watching, even at night, could not see the IR. The IR 'searchlight' could be a narrow-beam device, perhaps with a full-angle of 16 degrees or so (typical for a narrow-beam IR LED), so it wouldn't be particularly obvious even if watched through an IR viewer. (If the IR LED itself was shielded from direct view.)
One advantage of this technique is that the searcher could identify the target from a very long distance away, perhaps many tens of meters, and thus approach it in a more "innocent" fashion. No obvious "searching" would have to be performed in the open. And, the person who placed the dead drop could ascertain its status without later needing to approach it closely.
This technique could be combined with Bluetooth or WiFi techniques, too. The retroreflector could normally be retracted, and only raised if the proper Bluetooth or WiFi signal was heard. Or, perhaps, the target would contain an exposed IR LED, which would activate from an battery only if the proper signals were heard. The resulting dead-drop would be virtually impossible to find.
Jim Bell ×
I described a IR-only retroreflector that doesn't need any on-board power in the searched-for device. If you want some sort of control by the searcher, why not use something like using an infrared remote-controller to activate a sensor on a hidden, but visible package? https://www.futureelectronics.com/c/semiconductors/optoelectronics--infrared... You can see these devices from the manufacturer Everlight, which could be installed on the searched-for device: (Ordinarily, these devices are installed in TV's and other remote-controllable devices. https://www.futureelectronics.com/c/semiconductors/optoelectronics--infrared-receivers/products?selectedTab=products&q=%3Arelevence:manufacturerName:Everlight&text= One consumes 0.4 milliamp at 2.7 to 5.4 volts DC. Two AAA alkalines, from the Dollar Store, costs 50 cents, and probably has a capacity of 1000 milliamp-hour. EAIRMIA1 Everlight 38 KHz 6 V 8 m SMT Top View Infrared Receiver Control Receiver Module 2.7V to 5.5V So, such a battery would keep the searched-for system alive for over 2000 hours. I don't know the details of how you could specially-code the transmitter and receiver to include a secret unlock-code. I believe that some of these new IR controllers may have an IR back-channel from the TV to the controller, but I know little about that. One solution would be to use a commonly-available remote control, say an Comcast/Xfinity controller, and design a replacement internal PCB to entirely change the functions. If you've ever looked at one of these remote controllers, you will see that virtually the only 'smarts' on them is a single tiny IC, which does all of the keyboard scanning, and drives the IR LED included in the hardware. However, the simplest technique would be something like using the smarts in the existing controller to program a relatively-long code, say 6 to 9 digits, so that the searched-for device will only respond to such a custom-programmed remote controller device. A little research will probably provide that information. Jim Bell On Monday, January 14, 2019, 4:49:50 PM PST, Steven Schear <schear.steve@gmail.com> wrote: The cryptographic artifacts are currently based on inexpensive, off-the-shelf, devices. The passive WiFi mode is ingenious. One problem, AFAIK, with the commercial devices I found is the absence if a RTC (I think these can be soldered, carefully, onto the PCB) without which power consumption if too high and standby times too short. As for LiFi, the commercial technologies have been focused on visible light frequencies (so as to combine lighting and communications in one device). If LEDs were developed emitting in ozone absorption bands they could operate in sunlight, something current LiFi cannot. On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 11:46 PM jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote: On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 7:44:21 PM PST, Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote: Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/
Nice. It's cool to see serious tradecraft applied to this stuff. Especially compartmentalization.
And yes, using traditional shipping systems is a serious problem for old-school dark markets. I've thought off and on for several years about the potential for using dead drops with accurate GPS. I mean, geocaching. Many years ago, when I was dealing LSD, it was pretty common to use dead drops. But then, they were typically rental lockers in bus and train stations.
I agree that ubiquitous surveillance is a problem. However, it's ~clueless customers and low-level distributors who'll most likely get pwned. And they won't know anything importnt about the operation overall.
Yes, I am also quite impressed at the amount of thought that has been put into this concept, see the link above. I would be quite interested in helping in designing these systems, as I have been following some of the necessary technologies for years. I foresee a stiff plastic or metal pipe, tapered to a point at one end, which can be driven by force into soil or into a lawn, so that it ends up to be approximately flush with the plane of the soil. Once placed, a smaller cylindrical container, as well as active elements, if needed, can be slid into the metal pipe, from above.
From the linked article: https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/ "This challenge is met by Dropgangs in various ways. The primary one is that the documentation of each dead drop is conducted in minute detail, covering GPS coordinates, photos of the surrounding and the location, as well as photos of the concealment device in which the product is hidden (such as an empty coke can). The documentation however increases the risk for the Dropgang since whoever creates it would be more easy to identify by surveillance. In addition, even great documentation still requires the customer to understand it and follow it precisely, which can lead to suspicious behavior around the dead drop location (staring at photos, visually comparing them to the surrounding, etc)." [end of partial quote]
Ordinarily, smartphones that use GPS, don't use accurizing features, such as WAAS. (Wide Area Augmentation System). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System WAAS correction data is probably already available on the Internet. "Accuracy[edit] The WAAS specification requires it to provide a position accuracy of 7.6 metres (25 ft) or less (for both lateral and vertical measurements), at least 95% of the time.[2] Actual performance measurements of the system at specific locations have shown it typically provides better than 1.0 metre (3 ft 3 in) laterally and 1.5 metres (4 ft 11 in) vertically throughout most of the contiguous United States and large parts of Canada and Alaska.[3] With these results, WAAS is capable of achieving the required Category I precision approach accuracy of 16 metres (52 ft) laterally and 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) vertically. [end of partial quote] WAAS might be described as a form of differential GPS. If the location as computed by the smartphone was improved by WAAS, the statement above indicates an accuracy within about 1 meter. IR-specific retroreflectors to greatly simplify things. The article describes complicated systems using Bluetooth or WiFi to help locate these dead-drops. While they are certainly innovative, they add cost and complexity to the hardware involved. I have thought of a much-cheaper system that I feel is sufficiently secure and simple for common use. Light-retroreflectors are commonly made from Scotchlite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroreflective_sheeting or plastic molded corner-cubes. If a rather small (say, 1/4 in diameter) sphere covered with retroreflector material was held up from the insert, possibly by a short, thin stiff wire, the sphere could be visible, but not excessively obvious even during the daylight. It would be easy to find this device with a flashlight in the dark. For added security, an infrared-transmitting plastic (such as is often used to cover IR-activating remote controls, such as https://www.eplastics.com/plexiglass/acrylic-sheets/ir-transmitting ) could be used to ensure that only IR is retroreflected back to a searcher. Ordinary smart-phone camera arrays are not only sensitive to human-visible light (generally described as 400-700 nanometer wavelength), but are also sensitive to near-IR wavelengths. If a smartphone camera was combined with a directional IR LED, substituting for the white light LED lamp used for photography, and aiming in the same direction, a user would be able to see (through the camera display) the IR-specific reflections from an IR-limited retroreflector, and this would probably be doable both during the day and at night. A person operating such a camera would "look like" he was doing photography, or perhaps playing a game. Somebody watching, even at night, could not see the IR. The IR 'searchlight' could be a narrow-beam device, perhaps with a full-angle of 16 degrees or so (typical for a narrow-beam IR LED), so it wouldn't be particularly obvious even if watched through an IR viewer. (If the IR LED itself was shielded from direct view.) One advantage of this technique is that the searcher could identify the target from a very long distance away, perhaps many tens of meters, and thus approach it in a more "innocent" fashion. No obvious "searching" would have to be performed in the open. And, the person who placed the dead drop could ascertain its status without later needing to approach it closely. This technique could be combined with Bluetooth or WiFi techniques, too. The retroreflector could normally be retracted, and only raised if the proper Bluetooth or WiFi signal was heard. Or, perhaps, the target would contain an exposed IR LED, which would activate from an battery only if the proper signals were heard. The resulting dead-drop would be virtually impossible to find. Jim Bell ×
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:43:56 -0700 Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote:
Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets
| Instead of using websites on the darknet, merchants are now | operating invite-only channels on widely available mobile | messaging systems like Telegram.
lawl - telegram? - is that a retard joke or what?
On 1/13/19 10:43 PM, Mirimir wrote:
Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets
Here's some ideas about structural vulnerabilities in the Dropgang protocol, as described at https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/ Dead drop reuse: To achieve acceptable security each dead drop may be used once only, because hostile buyers could place 'their' dead drops under video surveillance and record every courier and customer visit to the drop following their own transaction. Couriers delivering to dead drops can not determine if their supplier sends them to previously used dead drops, unless they service only dead drops they set up and document themselves. Couriers should transmit the locations of drops they have developed only when presented with an order to fill, to assure that their distributor can not send other couriers and customers to use them first. The added surveillance exposure of making two visits to the same site - setup and delivery - presents less exposure than trusting that the anonymous seller will never send a courier to a previously used dead drop. Sales layer incentives for reusing dead drops include faster service during episodes of high demand for their products, and reducing the payment demands (time & labor = money) of their pool of delivery agents by reducing the need to develop new dead drops. Compared to single-use dead drops, reusing dead drops would enable distributors to reduce the cost of compensating agents to select and document new dead drops by up to 1/n the number of delivery agents employed, without disclosing to any delivery agent that the distributor does reuse dead drops. Absent an active and aggressive adversary, reusing dead drops would present few risks, so distributors may "get away with it" long enough to establish, in their own minds, that reuse is safe enough, and "either way I am not personally at risk." In the context of potential reuse of dead drops by unwitting delivery agents, isolation of the Sales layer from the Distribution layer via cryptography and mix networking tends to create potential hazards rather than removing them: Exposing delivery agents to drop-dead risks may cost sales agents some employees but has no other immediate repercussions as no evidence implicates them in exposing service agents to hostile actors. Over time a sales layer actor who burns delivery agents may run into trouble secondary to "cooperating witnesses" assisting investigators working their way up the chain of product custody; faith in the security of the protocol could easily lead some bad faith actors to dismiss that possibility. I noted that the article linked above endorses reuse of dead drops as acceptable, by saying that "An ideal dead drop is however used exactly once. Only then can the risks of using it be reduced to pure bad luck." I would hesitate to make purchases via the Dropgang protocol, because customers have no way of assuring that hostile buyers did not visit the same dead drops first - and some Dropgang advocates do not seem to understand the severity of the risks associated with dead drop reuse in the Dropgang context. Dead drop profiling: I believe the ability of hostile actors to in effect purchase dead drop locations, and delivery timing information, presents as an Achilles heel of the Dropgang protocol even with single use dead drops: Controlled buys would enable State or other well funded actors to map and profile dead drop sites, reducing scope of counter-Dropgang surveillance from "everywhere people can go" to target areas. The more random-ish and widely dispersed the dead drop sites, the higher the overhead in developing and servicing new drop sites due to travel time, orientation to unfamiliar terrain, etc. In most instances dead drops will concentrate in the most convenient terrain for delivery agents and customers. As geographic clusters of dead drops appear in data from controlled buys, more effective surveillance of those areas would follow. This observation suggests a security advantage when fewer, higher value transactions are handled, reducing the number of data points available to hostile buyers, and justifying more travel and effort to service drops. Bulk purchasers may also tolerate longer latency between orders and pickups than end use consumers. Higher latency reduces exposure to timing attacks and retroactive surveillance. Timing attacks: Controlled purchases in conjunction with surveillance of suspected delivery agents (distribution layer) enable timing attacks, as buyers would know that the agent who filled their orders did so between the times the orders were placed and picked up. Surveillance State adversaries could correlate controlled buys with the movements of individuals in a pool of suspects. Also, creating spikes in demand through multiple controlled purchases could prompt increased activity by delivery agents during time frames of an attacker's choice. Conducting intensive surveillance of likely drop areas during induced spikes in demand presents a more cost effective and less detectable approach than maintaining intensive surveillance throughout a protracted series of individual transactions. Summary: Because compromising a given Dropgang operation would cost significant time and money, I can not call the protocol broken - but it does look a bit leaky. As others have noted, most of the resulting risks fall on the customers and delivery agents. However, a patient and well funded adversary could work backward toward supply sources by carefully observing known delivery agents and/or developing and recruiting "blown" distribution layer agents as informants. Hostile actors not constrained by legal considerations could also infiltrate the distribution layer with their own agents to facilitate efforts to work backward and identify their sales layer controller/suppliers. Information obtained and/or created though controlled buys, and correlation of data sets derived from controlled buys and bulk surveillance sources, seem to present the largest security exposures inherent in the Dropgang protocol. Reuse of dead drops presents a drop-dead security exposure for both customers and distribution agents, so distribution agents should take positive steps to prevent it. Because many attacks against a well run Dropgang operation depend on collecting data from as many dead drop transactions as practicable, a smaller number high value transactions present economic and security advantages over a higher volume of lower value transactions. I believe mid level distributors of contraband could profitably use the Dropgang protocol to buy and sell bulk quantities of product, but not those selling smaller quantities directly to consumers.
On Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 3:13:07 PM PST, Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote: On 1/13/19 10:43 PM, Mirimir wrote:
Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets
Here's some ideas about structural vulnerabilities in the Dropgang protocol, as described at https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/
Dead drop reuse:
To achieve acceptable security each dead drop may be used once only, because hostile buyers could place 'their' dead drops under video surveillance and record every courier and customer visit to the drop following their own transaction.
Couriers delivering to dead drops can not determine if their supplier sends them to previously used dead drops, unless they service only dead drops they set up and document themselves. Couriers should transmit the locations of drops they have developed only when presented with an order to fill, to assure that their distributor can not send other couriers and customers to use them first. The added surveillance exposure of making two visits to the same site - setup and delivery - presents less exposure than trusting that the anonymous seller will never send a courier to a previously used dead drop. [much stuff deleted]
People who think of a 'dead drop' as being a previously-existing hidey-hole in the urban/suburban landscape need to remember that even if they are relatively plentiful, they are NOT so plentiful that they won't be reused at some point. Or much more likely, probed on speculation by passers-by, especially once they learn that such locations may be used as dead-drops. This is one reason I previously described my idea to have a pointy metal or stiff-plastic tube driven into the soil or in grassy area, maybe 1 inch in diameter, and then filled with a removable tube with the payload contained in it. For an approximate shape, take a look at this ad for centrifuge tube:https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?sku=76941&gclid=Cj0KCQiAm5viBRD4ARIsADGUT24x7cDtbtnGyiwG2_DKaCKpwCn9I-jw8XHCOwL17U0LCWFB3SQkyGAaArjUEALw_wcB (Although I am not suggesting employing an actual 'centrifuge tube': They appear to be much too expensive for this purpose. I am merely showing the approximate simple shape that could be employed.) Its location, when placed, is essentially arbitrary. All cities, suburbs, and towns, to say nothing of rural areas, are quite full of parks, fields, unbuilt lots, golf courses, cemeteries, grassy medians, high-tension line rights-of-way, gravel roads, beaches, and forested areas. Almost all of that could be employed to hide a tiny pipe whose presence would probably go unnoticed for years, and certainly for hours and days. The main requirement to find the store is a precise GPS system, ideally one which can employ WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System), which usually will provide a location accuracy of 1 meters. That alone would probably be sufficient. If people are assumed to only have access to ordinary GPS receivers, such as those in smartphones, I have also suggested using a plastic molded "corner-cube" retroreflection device to accurately send back light (or, with an IR-only filter, IR) to the searcher. See Acrylite GP color 1146-0. https://www.eplastics.com/plexiglass/acrylic-sheets/ir-transmitting This material can be placed over an ordinary clear-plastic retroreflector, and according to the graph shown it retroreflects only 1% of 1% (or 0.01%; it loses 99% on each pass through the sheet.) The retroreflection plane can be 'aimed' in a specific direction, to make it even more unlikely to be accidentally found by a random passer-by. Another aid to finding such a cache would be to throw a few hundreds or thousands of tiny (say, 1/100 inch diameter? polished glass beads, around the target, after it was placed in a grassy area. These glass beads would, themselves, be somewhat retroreflective, but could only be seen from above as the searcher gets close to the cache. Or, a small retroreflection disk can be placed, face-up, at or near the cache. Jim Bell
https://www.gpsworld.com/how-to-achieve-1-meter-accuracy-in-android/ [partial quote begins] Recent changes in hardware and standards make one-meter accuracy possible, in some cases as soon as this year. The transcript of a talk given to Android developers earlier this year, this article gives a short overview of location in smartphones, introduces Wi-Fi round-trip time technology and standards, and then explains the Wi-Fi application programming interfaces. By Frank van Diggelen, Roy Want and Wei Wang, Android Location, Google Eventually, this means high accuracy for everyone, but we want to take you under the hood of location because we want to give you the opportunity to get a head start on the future. We also want to highlight the need to protect and respect the user. The more people who use location, the more careful we and you have to be. We will highlight where you must get user permissions and we’ll close with some guidelines for making great location apps.It’s a great time for location applications because technology hardware standards and Android application programming interfaces (APIs) are all evolving simultaneously to enable an improved location accuracy that has not previously been possible when using smartphones. Where are we today with indoor location accuracy? If you’ve noticed that your phone seems to be more accurate when you’re inside shopping malls and office blocks than it was a few years ago, you’re not imagining it. With each release of the fused location provider, we have had steady improvement of the Android algorithms and machine learning for Wi-Fi locations. There continues to be improvement, and you’ll see indoor accuracy of better than 10 meters, but round-trip time (RTT) is the technology that will take us to the one-meter level. Meanwhile, what about GPS? In terms of GPS accuracy in the open sky, there has not been much change in the last few years. If you’re outside and can see the open sky, the GPS accuracy from your phone is about five meters, and that’s been constant for a while. But with raw GNSS measurements from the phones, this can now improve, and with changes in satellite and receiver hardware, the improvements can be dramatic. Everyone’s familiar with the blue dot, but to get the blue dot you need a location provider, and to get location you need measurements — specifically, range measurements from Wi-Fi access points or from GPS satellites. We’ll show you how one-meter measurement accuracy can be made available in smartphones. The key technologies are Wi-Fi RTT, GPS dual-frequency and carrier phase measurements. [end of partial quote] On Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 11:28:08 PM PST, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote: On Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 3:13:07 PM PST, Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote: On 1/13/19 10:43 PM, Mirimir wrote:
Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets
Here's some ideas about structural vulnerabilities in the Dropgang protocol, as described at https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/
Dead drop reuse:
To achieve acceptable security each dead drop may be used once only, because hostile buyers could place 'their' dead drops under video surveillance and record every courier and customer visit to the drop following their own transaction.
Couriers delivering to dead drops can not determine if their supplier sends them to previously used dead drops, unless they service only dead drops they set up and document themselves. Couriers should transmit the locations of drops they have developed only when presented with an order to fill, to assure that their distributor can not send other couriers and customers to use them first. The added surveillance exposure of making two visits to the same site - setup and delivery - presents less exposure than trusting that the anonymous seller will never send a courier to a previously used dead drop. [much stuff deleted]
People who think of a 'dead drop' as being a previously-existing hidey-hole in the urban/suburban landscape need to remember that even if they are relatively plentiful, they are NOT so plentiful that they won't be reused at some point. Or much more likely, probed on speculation by passers-by, especially once they learn that such locations may be used as dead-drops. This is one reason I previously described my idea to have a pointy metal or stiff-plastic tube driven into the soil or in grassy area, maybe 1 inch in diameter, and then filled with a removable tube with the payload contained in it. For an approximate shape, take a look at this ad for centrifuge tube:https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?sku=76941&gclid=Cj0KCQiAm5viBRD4ARIsADGUT24x7cDtbtnGyiwG2_DKaCKpwCn9I-jw8XHCOwL17U0LCWFB3SQkyGAaArjUEALw_wcB (Although I am not suggesting employing an actual 'centrifuge tube': They appear to be much too expensive for this purpose. I am merely showing the approximate simple shape that could be employed.) Its location, when placed, is essentially arbitrary. All cities, suburbs, and towns, to say nothing of rural areas, are quite full of parks, fields, unbuilt lots, golf courses, cemeteries, grassy medians, high-tension line rights-of-way, gravel roads, beaches, and forested areas. Almost all of that could be employed to hide a tiny pipe whose presence would probably go unnoticed for years, and certainly for hours and days. The main requirement to find the store is a precise GPS system, ideally one which can employ WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System), which usually will provide a location accuracy of 1 meters. That alone would probably be sufficient. If people are assumed to only have access to ordinary GPS receivers, such as those in smartphones, I have also suggested using a plastic molded "corner-cube" retroreflection device to accurately send back light (or, with an IR-only filter, IR) to the searcher. See Acrylite GP color 1146-0. https://www.eplastics.com/plexiglass/acrylic-sheets/ir-transmitting This material can be placed over an ordinary clear-plastic retroreflector, and according to the graph shown it retroreflects only 1% of 1% (or 0.01%; it loses 99% on each pass through the sheet.) The retroreflection plane can be 'aimed' in a specific direction, to make it even more unlikely to be accidentally found by a random passer-by. Another aid to finding such a cache would be to throw a few hundreds or thousands of tiny (say, 1/100 inch diameter? polished glass beads, around the target, after it was placed in a grassy area. These glass beads would, themselves, be somewhat retroreflective, but could only be seen from above as the searcher gets close to the cache. Or, a small retroreflection disk can be placed, face-up, at or near the cache. Jim Bell
On 2/24/19 2:01 AM, jim bell wrote:
https://www.gpsworld.com/how-to-achieve-1-meter-accuracy-in-android/
[partial quote begins]
Recent changes in hardware and standards make one-meter accuracy possible, in some cases as soon as this year. The transcript of a talk given to Android developers earlier this year, this article gives a short overview of location in smartphones, introduces Wi-Fi round-trip time technology and standards, and then explains the Wi-Fi application programming interfaces.
/By Frank van Diggelen, Roy Want and Wei Wang, Android Location, Google/
That's very relevant indeed - one-meter accuracy would remove the need to put any kind of 'flag' on top of a dead drop container. Without retroreflectors or etc. marking packages, broad searches of likely drop areas would not produce results worth paying for. Also buyers would have no need for a means of finding inconspicuous retroreflectors - just a 'really good' mobile phone. Still not "the perfect crime", but a much improved one. :o)
On Sunday, February 24, 2019, 12:28:28 PM PST, Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote: On 2/24/19 2:01 AM, jim bell wrote:
https://www.gpsworld.com/how-to-achieve-1-meter-accuracy-in-android/
[partial quote begins]
Recent changes in hardware and standards make one-meter accuracy possible, in some cases as soon as this year. The transcript of a talk given to Android developers earlier this year, this article gives a short overview of location in smartphones, introduces Wi-Fi round-trip time technology and standards, and then explains the Wi-Fi application programming interfaces.
/By Frank van Diggelen, Roy Want and Wei Wang, Android Location, Google/
That's very relevant indeed - one-meter accuracy would remove the need to put any kind of 'flag' on top of a dead drop container. Without retroreflectors or etc. marking packages, broad searches of likely drop areas would not produce results worth paying for. Yes, I have been considering the retroreflector idea, and while I still think it would be a good idea for 'early' deaddrops, any technique in common use would eventually be sufficiently well-publicized that opponents (cops; thieves) would gradually catch on. A retroflector that can be seen much more than 5 meters away would be convenient, but also risky. Retroreflectors which simply lay on the ground, retroreflective surface up, maybe 1/2 inch in diameter, would still be a useful idea. I imagine that they wouldn't be easily visible from more than 2-3 meters away. Yet another marker would be a sprinkling of a modern powdered clothes-washing detergent around the area of the dropped idea, perhaps up to 10 centimeters away. Such detergents have long (50+years) had phosphorescent materials in them, designed to make clothes brigher. There are UV and near-UV LEDs, say 405 nanometers and shorter, which would make those phosphors glow brightly, visible at least at night. This would have the advantage that they would not be visible more than a few meters away. Another advantage is that they would gradually be washed away, leaving little permanent record. Yet another idea would be to place a relatively prominent object in an area, and then place the drop a defined distance and direction away from that object. >Also buyers would have no need for a means of finding inconspicuous retroreflectors - just a 'really good' mobile phone. I have been trying to get an answer to what should be a simple question: Do modern cell phones receive and use WAAS corrections? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System × WAAS is a type of differential GPS in which the corrections are pre-computed and broadcast by geosynchronous satellites at the same frequency as L1 GPS. This on-frequency transmission has the advantage that no separate correction-signal path should be necessary: a receiver which receives the L1 GPS would, in principle, be able to receive the WAAS corrections. Whereas GPS alone is supposed to be accurate to 5 meters, WAAS corrections are said to result in 1 meter (or less) accuracy. What I haven't heard whether cell phones use this? You'd think you'd get the answer with a google search of 'android waas', but I simply haven't found it. I find discussions of this as early as 2010, but very little is discussed over the years. My next step is to find a 'tracker' program for my phone, and then set the phone down and put it in 'track' mode for a few hours. The size of the scatter-plot should show, not the accuracy, but at least the stability of the signal. This might correlate with the accuracy, At least, if I see a 2-meter diameter scatter, I will be able to expect 1 meter stability. The next step is the phones' addition of the Broadcom BCM47755 GPS chip, https://www.broadcom.com/products/wireless/gnss-gps-socs/bcm47755 that chip which uses both L1 and L5 frequencies. It is already working in a Chinese cell phone, the https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/world-s-first-dual-frequency-gnss-sm... Xiaomi Mi 8, although reading of the first reviews over a half-year ago revealed some early bugs. Accuracies of 30 centimeters are espected.
I'm come to the conclusion that anyone _placing_ these dead-drops should do so solely with a stand-alone dedicated GPS+WAAS (or GPS-L1+L5) receiver. It looks too mysterious what a typical Google phone can do to track itself, even turning on 'airplane mode' and taking other precautions. A person hunting these dead-drops could still use a smartphone to find the material. Jim Bell ×
Geocachers put stuff in parks and forests, under bridges, in dusty books, etc all the time. Considerations... - Timescale... physical works get built replaced and blown up, materials degrade due to environment, forests burn and cut, map and key holders die or turn sides, etc - Human presence... Cops, tattletales, tails, lookers on, metal and density treasure hunters, building remodels, etc - Tech... SatNav can be turned off, EMP happens, magnetic poles move, star fix inaccurate, etc Geocache gamers and time capsulers often bury PVC pipe with photographic map of path taken from insertion point to cache. Simple often best.
On Sun, 24 Feb 2019 07:01:09 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 1/13/19 10:43 PM, Mirimir wrote:
Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/ I call mostly bullshit on most of that article. A couple of points : First : There are some clever ways to place an object at some 'secret' location and allow the recipient to find it. *HOWEVER* that hardly solves the surveillance problem. If people's movements are tracked using video surveillance then it's possible to find out who is doing suspicious things like going to a park and picking something off the ground. And if a place in the countryside is used, then the car used to get there is tracked. AND there may be other surveillance cameras close to the location as well. Not to mentio, the retardphone itself, which enables the user to find stuff with 30cm accuracy AND allows the government to track its subjects with 30cm accuracy. Granted, the system may work under some circumstances but it seems to me that if it were used by a sizable amount of people, then identifying those people would be rather easy. Second : The 'new system' allegedly replaces piece of shit tor with something EVEN WORSE : "...messaging services will appear that combine better anonymity for both merchant and customer" yeah, they will appear, because of...magic. Wait for it " First steps in this direction have been taken by Chinese messaging companies, Telegram and even Facebook" so facebook and the CCP will provide the 'anonymous' telecom infrastructure for black markets. Rejoice! But now seriously, the author seems to be mocking his readers.
My comments inline: " There are some clever ways to place an object at some 'secret' location and allow the recipient to find it. *HOWEVER* that hardly solves the surveillance problem. " True. Fortunately, America is not yet as much-surveilled as some areas, such as London. And if the principles of this dropgang idea are followed, placing the drop in a large grassy areas, such as parks, cemeteries, then it is unlikely that the video resolution will be sufficient to provide good identifiable evidence. " If people's movements are tracked using video surveillance then it's possible to find out who is doing suspicious things like going to a park and picking something off the ground. Possible, yes. But such video surveillance doesn't yet have enough ubiquity and resolution to identify the person, in most cases. "And if a place in the countryside is used, then the car used to get there is tracked. AND there may be other surveillance cameras close to the location as well." GPS jammers will be useful for that. " Not to mentio, the retardphone itself, which enables the user to find stuff with 30cm accuracy AND allows the government to track its subjects with 30cm accuracy. " Which is one reason I suggest that the person placing the drops use a dedicated GPS device, with either WAAS (1 meter accuracy) or, eventually, L1+L5 capability, with 30 cm accuracy. Because such a device will be unlikely to have any sort of back-channel, the way smartphones usually do. " Granted, the system may work under some circumstances but it seems to me that if it were used by a sizable amount of people, then identifying those people would be rather easy." Are the areas in which such drops would be usually placed sufficiently video-surveilled? " Second : The 'new system' allegedly replaces piece of shit tor with something EVEN WORSE : " I'm not commenting about TOR. Jim Bell On Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 12:57:02 PM PST, Punk <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote: On Sun, 24 Feb 2019 07:01:09 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 1/13/19 10:43 PM, Mirimir wrote:
Dropgangs, or the future of dark markets https://opaque.link/post/dropgang/ I call mostly bullshit on most of that article. A couple of points : First : There are some clever ways to place an object at some 'secret' location and allow the recipient to find it. *HOWEVER* that hardly solves the surveillance problem. If people's movements are tracked using video surveillance then it's possible to find out who is doing suspicious things like going to a park and picking something off the ground. And if a place in the countryside is used, then the car used to get there is tracked. AND there may be other surveillance cameras close to the location as well. Not to mentio, the retardphone itself, which enables the user to find stuff with 30cm accuracy AND allows the government to track its subjects with 30cm accuracy. Granted, the system may work under some circumstances but it seems to me that if it were used by a sizable amount of people, then identifying those people would be rather easy. Second : The 'new system' allegedly replaces piece of shit tor with something EVEN WORSE : "...messaging services will appear that combine better anonymity for both merchant and customer" yeah, they will appear, because of...magic. Wait for it " First steps in this direction have been taken by Chinese messaging companies, Telegram and even Facebook" so facebook and the CCP will provide the 'anonymous' telecom infrastructure for black markets. Rejoice! But now seriously, the author seems to be mocking his readers.
There are some clever ways to place an object at some 'secret' location and allow the recipient to find it. *HOWEVER* that hardly solves the surveillance problem.
If you are in the city, everything is on CCTV. But you are not going to drop something valuable in the middle of the city. I look out from my window, and I see forest, ocean, and swamps. Drop in the forest. Drop it in the swamp. *Bury* it in the swamp and take a photo of the location, like a pirate map to buried treasure. The swamp near me gets flooded by the ocean at high tide for several miles. Bury it before a high tide, and the tide will erase the marks of the digging. That is how we deal around here with child protective services and people who go pig hunting on private land without permission.
On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:15:51 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
There are some clever ways to place an object at some 'secret' location and allow the recipient to find it. *HOWEVER* that hardly solves the surveillance problem.
If you are in the city, everything is on CCTV. But you are not going to drop something valuable in the middle of the city.
Yet the majority of customers live in the city. Also, surveillance in the city means surveillance when you enter and leave the city.
I look out from my window, and I see forest, ocean, and swamps. Drop in the forest. Drop it in the swamp. *Bury* it in the swamp and take a photo of the location, like a pirate map to buried treasure.
Yes that may work in some cases. On the other hand if you live in a relatively isolated place then there's less surveillance*...and less providers of whatever you're buying. *and even that is debatable beacuse who knows what your asshole neighbors are doing. They likely put a few cameras here and there...
The swamp near me gets flooded by the ocean at high tide for several miles. Bury it before a high tide, and the tide will erase the marks of the digging. That is how we deal around here with child protective services
haha - pure talk...
and people who go pig hunting on private land without permission.
yeah, you never learned even the A of the ABC of libertarianism, we know that.
On Thursday, February 28, 2019, 12:16:48 PM PST, Punk <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote: On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:15:51 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
If you are in the city, everything is on CCTV. But you are not going to drop something valuable in the middle of the city.
> Yet the majority of customers live in the city. Also, surveillance in the city means surveillance when you enter and leave the city. Depends very much on the city. In the big (relatively) city closest to me, Portland Oregon, there are many hundreds of streets that 'leave the city'. Sure, they could all be camera'd, but what good would that do? The pictures could be stored, and would be, but how could it be known if any specific frame represents a "useful" image? Eventually, some kind of AI could be developed, but I doubt whether this would find most activities which would be useful to identify. Placing or retrieving a dead-drop would be one of the most undetectable events that could occur: Drive to a block, get out, walk around in a large grassy area, bend over, pick up something, walk away, drive away. How much video of this would surveillance have to catch to determine that the person surveilled was doing something suspicious...particularly if they didn't already know something was going on. This reminds me that 23 years ago, I first learned about "3M Louvered Film", https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/industrial-manufacturing-us/display-enhancement-... a plastic sheet product that prevents viewing at angles greater than a pre-defined amount. It's now generically available. https://www.shinetsu.info/vc_film This stuff could be placed over a car's license plate, so that a camera well above (or to the side, or both) couldn't read the plate. To be sure, that's not necessarily an unmixed blessing. While it effectively makes a car look like it doesn't have a (readable) license plate, that in itself might be considered suspicious. A few weeks ago, I realized that cemeteries would be excellent locations for placing dead-drops. (no pun intended, but I'll take what I can get !). There are few people who visit cemeteries, but the idea of a person visiting a grave is very plausible. And, some amount of 'searching' is to be expected, so it doesn't look suspicious. Further, there are plenty of gravestones which can be used as markers for the placement and retrieval of those dead-drops, even more precisely than WAAS GPS or L1+L5 GPS. The war continues. Jim Bell × ×
On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 5:17 PM jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thursday, February 28, 2019, 12:16:48 PM PST, Punk <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote: On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:15:51 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
If you are in the city, everything is on CCTV. But you are not going to drop something valuable in the middle of the city.
Yet the majority of customers live in the city. Also, surveillance in the city means surveillance when you enter and leave the city.
Depends very much on the city. In the big (relatively) city closest to me, Portland Oregon, there are many hundreds of streets that 'leave the city'. Sure, they could all be camera'd, but what good would that do? The pictures could be stored, and would be, but how could it be known if any specific frame represents a "useful" image?
Eventually, some kind of AI could be developed, but I doubt whether this would find most activities which would be useful to identify. Placing or retrieving a dead-drop would be one of the most undetectable events that could occur: Drive to a block, get out, walk around in a large grassy area, bend over, pick up something, walk away, drive away. How much video of this would surveillance have to catch to determine that the person surveilled was doing something suspicious...particularly if they didn't already know something was going on.
This reminds me that 23 years ago, I first learned about "3M Louvered Film", https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/industrial-manufacturing-us/display-enhancement-... a plastic sheet product that prevents viewing at angles greater than a pre-defined amount. It's now generically available. https://www.shinetsu.info/vc_film
This stuff could be placed over a car's license plate, so that a camera well above (or to the side, or both) couldn't read the plate. To be sure, that's not necessarily an unmixed blessing. While it effectively makes a car look like it doesn't have a (readable) license plate, that in itself might be considered suspicious.
A few weeks ago, I realized that cemeteries would be excellent locations for placing dead-drops. (no pun intended, but I'll take what I can get !). There are few people who visit cemeteries, but the idea of a person visiting a grave is very plausible. And, some amount of 'searching' is to be expected, so it doesn't look suspicious. Further, there are plenty of gravestones which can be used as markers for the placement and retrieval of those dead-drops, even more precisely than WAAS GPS or L1+L5 GPS.
The war continues.
Jim Bell
Riffing a bit on the cemeteries: Pick a famous grave near you - some recently deceased celebrity, say Jim Morrison (as opposed to an ancient celebrity, such as US Grant) that attracts a lot of people. And, FWIW, there's a fair amount of tradecraft shown in The Americans, a pretty good TV series set in the '80s. Kurt
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 01:17:11 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
Depends very much on the city. In the big (relatively) city closest to me, Portland Oregon, there are many hundreds of streets that 'leave the city'. Sure, they could all be camera'd, but what good would that do? The pictures could be stored, and would be, but how could it be known if any specific frame represents a "useful" image? Eventually, some kind of AI could be developed,
There's no such thing as 'artificial intelligence'. And the time isn't "eventually" but "right now". There is already ordinary software that does motion detection and image recognition which is all you need for surveillance. Or if you want to put it differently, all the hype about 'AI' is just more promotion of automated surveillance.
but I doubt whether this would find most activities which would be useful to identify.
I don't see many reasons for doubting that automated surveillance can work, or is already working.
Placing or retrieving a dead-drop would be one of the most undetectable events that could occur: Drive to a block, get out, walk around in a large grassy area, bend over, pick up something, walk away, drive away. How much video of this would surveillance have to catch to determine that the person surveilled was doing something suspicious...
If a few people make short trips to some rural area, that's suspicious enough. If they get caught on camera wandering around that's prolly even more suspicious. But there's more. Locations are being used as a sort of private key. Problem is, an attacker may be able to drastically reduce the 'key space'. Sellers in a given city are likely to use a few selected places. So all the pigs have to do is make a few purchases to learn what areas the sellers use. article states "Potential dead drop locations can be identified and surveilled by law enforcement" and then makes the bullshit claim "the number of potential dead drop locations is very high which requires a lot of resources to surveil" but no, the number of locations isn't necessarily 'very high', and once general locations are known, surveilling them doesn't require a lot of resources.
particularly if they didn't already know something was going on. This reminds me that 23 years ago, I first learned about "3M Louvered Film", https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/industrial-manufacturing-us/display-enhancement-... a plastic sheet product that prevents viewing at angles greater than a pre-defined amount. It's now generically available. https://www.shinetsu.info/vc_film This stuff could be placed over a car's license plate, so that a camera well above (or to the side, or both) couldn't read the plate. To be sure, that's not necessarily an unmixed blessing. While it effectively makes a car look like it doesn't have a (readable) license plate, that in itself might be considered suspicious.
Of course, the moment the system detects a car whose plate it can't scan, cops get called. So that doesn't sound like a good move at all. You could try using a fake plate, if you know the plate number of a car that looks like yours, but that's again rather risky. Bottom line seems to be, you can only use the car to do ordinary stuff like going to mcdouglas to buy hamburgers. Then walk to a nearby 'dead drop'.
A few weeks ago, I realized that cemeteries would be excellent locations for placing dead-drops. (no pun intended, but I'll take what I can get !). There are few people who visit cemeteries,
so the 'anonimity set' is small, which is not good. Also, as mentioned above, cops make a purchase, learn that cemeteries are used - then surveil them.
but the idea of a person visiting a grave is very plausible. And, some amount of 'searching' is to be expected, so it doesn't look suspicious. Further, there are plenty of gravestones which can be used as markers for the placement and retrieval of those dead-drops, even more precisely than WAAS GPS or L1+L5 GPS.
well at least there's that...
The war continues. Jim Bell
×
×
On 2019-03-01 14:51, Punk wrote:
but no, the number of locations isn't necessarily 'very high', and once general locations are known, surveilling them doesn't require a lot of resources.
If you are reluctant to travel any distance, one day one man places a box of flowers on a grave. The next day someone else changes the box. And vast numbers of people visit unsurvieled wildenerss every day.
On 2019-03-01 14:51, Punk wrote:
but no, the number of locations isn't necessarily 'very high', and once general locations are known, surveilling them doesn't require a lot of resources.
Every fortnight or so I go crabbing. Most people around here go crabbing every now and then. What does one do when one goes crabbing? You travel round a vast area of wilderness that is under water at king tide, dropping off crab traps, and picking up crab traps that you dropped off the previous day.
jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
The swamp near me gets flooded by the ocean at high tide for several miles. Bury it before a high tide, and the tide will erase the marks of the digging. That is how we deal around here with child protective services and people who go pig hunting on private land without permission.
On 2019-03-01 06:10, Punk wrote:
yeah, you never learned even the A of the ABC of libertarianism, we know that.
Libertarianism 101: It is right to use violence on people who violate your property, and no property is more precious than children. But, back to topic of safe drops: Even for people who live in the big city, take a look at google earth. There is wilderness not very far from you, and lots of people visit that wilderness for reasons other than collecting a drop.
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 11:56:13 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
The swamp near me gets flooded by the ocean at high tide for several miles. Bury it before a high tide, and the tide will erase the marks of the digging. That is how we deal around here with child protective services and people who go pig hunting on private land without permission.
On 2019-03-01 06:10, Punk wrote:
yeah, you never learned even the A of the ABC of libertarianism, we know that.
Libertarianism 101: It is right to use violence on people who violate your property, and no property is more precious than children.
I don't mind if state agents have an 'accident' and/or are beaten to death, any state agent or government criminal, not just agents from 'child protective services'. However the idea that you can attack people who hunt in 'your' land is of course nonsense. And the idea that children are owned is just as nonsensical. But hey, just like you, the government also thinks that children can be owned, that's why there things like public 'education' and 'child protective services'.
But, back to topic of safe drops:
Even for people who live in the big city, take a look at google earth. There is wilderness not very far from you, and lots of people visit that wilderness for reasons other than collecting a drop.
That may be te true in some areas, not in others. back to the article's bullshit claims "All kinds of goods will be widely available, anonymously, securely, in our cities and urban environments."
It is right to use violence on people who violate your property
However the idea that you can attack people who hunt in 'your' land is of course nonsense.
What theory is this debating?
On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 03:01:16 -0500 grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
It is right to use violence on people who violate your property
However the idea that you can attack people who hunt in 'your' land is of course nonsense.
What theory is this debating?
personal rights - one of the core concepts in liberal philosophy.
It is right to use violence on people who violate your property
However the idea that you can attack people who hunt in 'your' land is of course nonsense.
What theory is this debating?
personal rights - one of the core concepts in liberal philosophy.
So people in your land are allowed to kill your pigs, steal your goats, trap your fink, burn your books, take your kids, and shit your bed? What are you going to do, say stop again? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79FlCbEFoB4 You all can debate your topic, have fun.
On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 08:34:16 -0500 grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
It is right to use violence on people who violate your property
However the idea that you can attack people who hunt in 'your' land is of course nonsense.
What theory is this debating?
personal rights - one of the core concepts in liberal philosophy.
So people in your land are allowed to kill your pigs, steal your goats, trap your fink, burn your books, take your kids, and shit your bed?
1) you didn't even read the previous messages 2) do your fucking homework 3) you are an 'ex' tor agent and statist now lecturing me about political theory...? cute.
JD:
It is right to use violence on people who violate your property JG: However the idea that you can attack people who hunt in 'your' land is of course nonsense. personal rights - one of the core concepts in liberal philosophy. G: So people in your land are allowed to kill your pigs, steal your goats, trap your fink, burn your books, take your kids, and shit your bed? What are you going to do, say stop again?
Surround them with love, forgive, pray to not be fucked again? That's noble and personal. JG:
messages
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2019-February/044744.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2019-March/044749.html
"tor"
Tries to remove free speech from the internet, gets hurt when it fails, resorts to twisting, and authoritarian threats, to censor voices it doesn't like calling it, and its hypocrisy, out, including those defending actual freedom of speech. That's really fucking sad.
"authority"
Debunked by many earlier.
On 2019-03-05 11:47, grarpamp wrote:
Surround them with love, forgive, pray to not be fucked again? That's noble and personal.
The amazing piety of the Trotsyites during the early seventies has given me a permanent allergic reaction to superior holiness. Commies are always extremely holy, the holiest of social Justice Warriors, and the holiest of all are the Trotskyites, who during late twenties and early thirties, poured burning gasoline over the peasant's children to force him to reveal where the seed corn was buried, and tortured their fellow Jew with fire in the hope he had some more gold coins buried away. Similarly, Social Justice Warriors are so committed to nonviolence, that they will punch you in the face because your facecrime constitutes violence.
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 21:15:31 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
" If people's movements are tracked using video surveillance then it's possible to find out who is doing suspicious things like going to a park and picking something off the ground.
Possible, yes. But such video surveillance doesn't yet have enough ubiquity and resolution to identify the person, in most cases.
Are you sure it doesn't? https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/1080p-fhd-spy-camera.html "Brand New WiFi Glasses Hidden Camera 1080P without any lens hole with two legs battery for at least 2 hours working time US $49.0-52.0 / Piece" That's video at 2000x1000 pixels for $50. So we can asume that the surveillance state scum uses even higher resolution. And then, the cameras they use can be pointed and can zoom in. I assume it's rather easy for them to do motion detection and then take pictures of people. And of course there's more https://www.geekwire.com/2018/amazon-takes-google-ring-launches-199-security... https://www.rt.com/news/448644-ring-amazon-privacy-home-security/ Aaannddd, it's getting worse every day.
"And if a place in the countryside is used, then the car used to get there is tracked. AND there may be other surveillance cameras close to the location as well."
GPS jammers will be useful for that.
Cars are tracked using cameras that read plate license numbers. I don't think a gps jammer will help much. Also I assume that sooner or later all cars will be radio linked to govcorp, and the moment they stop reporting their location, the cops will show up. How cool is that? That is, until today's cars are replaced by google garbage and similar 'self driving' garbage. At which point...
" Not to mentio, the retardphone itself, which enables the user to find stuff with 30cm accuracy AND allows the government to track its subjects with 30cm accuracy. "
Which is one reason I suggest that the person placing the drops use a dedicated GPS device,
Yes, it seems one could build/use different devices to work around the backdoored systems that govcorp provides. But acquiring such devices isn't necessarily easy for average users.
with either WAAS (1 meter accuracy) or, eventually, L1+L5 capability, with 30 cm accuracy. Because such a device will be unlikely to have any sort of back-channel, the way smartphones usually do.
" Granted, the system may work under some circumstances but it seems to me that if it were used by a sizable amount of people, then identifying those people would be rather easy."
Are the areas in which such drops would be usually placed sufficiently video-surveilled?
I guess it depends. For instance, I'd expect parks in cities to be especially surveilled. And places that are not yet surveilled can be easily put under surveillance. The article mentions "focus on customer convenience" "developments that serve the convenience" "convenience that is required by most modern consumers " Seems to me that 'convenience' and avoiding surveillance are mutually exclusive goals.
" Second :
The 'new system' allegedly replaces piece of shit tor with something EVEN WORSE : "
I'm not commenting about TOR.
I wasn't commenting on tor either. I'm commenting on the fact that the article claims that facebook and chinese companies will provide secure channels. Which frankly means the article is taking the readers for idiots.
Jim Bell
participants (8)
-
grarpamp -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
jim bell -
Kurt Buff - GSEC, GCIH -
Mirimir -
Punk -
Steve Kinney -
Steven Schear