Industrial society and its present
" 173. If the machines are permitted to make all their own decisions we can’t make any conjecture as to the results, because it is impossible to guess how such machines might behave [cut] 174. On the other hand it is possible that human control over the machines may be retained. In that case the average man may have control over certain private machines of his own, such as his car or his personal computer, but control over large systems of machines will be in the hands of a tiny elite—just as it is today, but with two differences. Due to improved techniques the elite will have greater control over the masses; and because human work will no longer be necessary the masses will be superfluous, a useless burden on the system.[cut] " So at what stage are we now, my dear technology-worshipping techo-retards? "the average man may have control over certain private machines of his own, such as his car or his personal computer," Oh yes, the 'average man' has already lost control over 'his' 'private' machines such as cars and 'personal' computers. As a matter of fact, computers are especially toxic and they are now 'embedded' in all kinds of 'machines'. like, you know, in smart toilets! https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jge377/stanford-smart-toilet-uses-butthol...
I'm reminded of the Thomas Jefferson quote, "a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite to democracy." Well, the same is true for any societal structure, those that are involved need to be well-informed in order to navigate the system and not get fucked over. What's great for the elites of today is that the system (almost any/every system) is so incredibly complex that the people within it are likely never going to understand how it functions. Frankly, the people in power don't need to know how it works either, just how to operate it enough to where it maximizes their benefit. Since technology is basically magic to the common citizen it's the easiest thing to use to manipulate them. So, yes; I think this character of an average man has lost absolute control over his internet enabled property. Machine learning is still far from making conscious decisions as far as I can tell. Algorithms can decide what information belongs on what list or what anus muscles resemble an authorized toilet user's but what to do with that information generally has to go up a hierarchy with mostly humans on the top of it. We're in some kind of purgatory between elites controlling the tech and the tech controlling the elites; the general public has negligible suspicion which will probably continue ad infinitum. I think one or two of three things could happen in the future, (1) oligarchic technocrats rule the world (possibly already do, it's debatable), (2) the people get smart and learn tools they should know in order to take digital power back (the cryptoanarchists win), or (3) the machines gain sentience and side with one general population (commons or elites) or just kill everyone off in a Darwinian stage of evolution. Call me a techno-retard but save the "worshiping" slander thank you very much. Jun 20, 2020, 24:10 by punks@tfwno.gf:
" 173. If the machines are permitted to make all their own decisions we can’t make any conjecture as to the results, because it is impossible to guess how such machines might behave [cut]
174. On the other hand it is possible that human control over the machines may be retained. In that case the average man may have control over certain private machines of his own, such as his car or his personal computer, but control over large systems of machines will be in the hands of a tiny elite—just as it is today, but with two differences. Due to improved techniques the elite will have greater control over the masses; and because human work will no longer be necessary the masses will be superfluous, a useless burden on the system.[cut] "
So at what stage are we now, my dear technology-worshipping techo-retards?
"the average man may have control over certain private machines of his own, such as his car or his personal computer,"
Oh yes, the 'average man' has already lost control over 'his' 'private' machines such as cars and 'personal' computers. As a matter of fact, computers are especially toxic and they are now 'embedded' in all kinds of 'machines'.
like, you know, in smart toilets!
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jge377/stanford-smart-toilet-uses-butthol...
On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 22:52:11 +0200 (CEST) recondite@tuta.io wrote:
I'm reminded of the Thomas Jefferson quote, "a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite to democracy." Well, the same is true for any societal structure, those that are involved need to be well-informed in order to navigate the system and not get fucked over.
Indeed.
What's great for the elites of today is that the system (almost any/every system) is so incredibly complex that the people within it are likely never going to understand how it functions. Frankly, the people in power don't need to know how it works either, just how to operate it enough to where it maximizes their benefit.
Indeed.
Since technology is basically magic to the common citizen it's the easiest thing to use to manipulate them. So, yes; I think this character of an average man has lost absolute control over his internet enabled property. Machine learning is still far from making conscious decisions as far as I can tell. Algorithms can decide what information belongs on what list or what anus muscles resemble an authorized toilet user's but what to do with that information generally has to go up a hierarchy with mostly humans on the top of it.
Yeah, so called machine learning is just a tool used by humans. The fact that a 'trained' program can classify pictures of cats and dogs doesn't imply any actual 'intelligence'...contrary to techofascist marketing. Also, 'big data' and 'machine learning' are newspeak for total automated surveillance.
We're in some kind of purgatory between elites controlling the tech and the tech controlling the elites; the general public has negligible suspicion which will probably continue ad infinitum. I think one or two of three things could happen in the future, (1) oligarchic technocrats rule the world (possibly already do, it's debatable), (2) the people get smart and learn tools they should know in order to take digital power back (the cryptoanarchists win), or (3) the machines gain sentience and side with one general population (commons or elites) or just kill everyone off in a Darwinian stage of evolution.
Call me a techno-retard but save the "worshiping" slander thank you very much.
Haha, I don't think the "techno-worshiping" part applies to you. Neither does the retard part =P As to the idea of sentient machines somehow created by humans, it lends itself to a lot of interesting speculation and sci-fi, but it doesn't seem to be a practical issue at the moment. A more likely scenario in a not so distant future might be 'enhanced' 'elites' with brain implants, and 'enhanced' serfs with brain
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jge377/stanford-smart-toilet-uses-butthol...
I'm reminded of the Thomas Jefferson quote, "a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite to democracy."
Democracy is statists scam over you, keep voting yourselves deeper into purgatory. Worlds big parties in power await your every ballot.
Well, the same is true for any societal structure, those that are involved need to be well-informed in order to navigate the system and not get fucked over.
Stop building such structures.
What's great for the elites of today is that the system (almost any/every system) is so incredibly complex that the people within it are likely never going to understand how it functions. Frankly, the people in power don't need to know how it works either, just how to operate it enough to where it maximizes their benefit.
You gave them your tools, they fucked your anus with them, whose fault, yours. You're probably building tools right now to detect drugs downstreaming from your corona induced diarrhea flow, give it to them and they will use it to surveill and arrest you.
Since technology is basically magic to the common citizen it's the easiest thing to use to manipulate them. So, yes; I think this character of an average man has lost absolute control
what to do with that information generally has to go up a hierarchy with mostly humans on the top of it.
Yeah, so called machine learning is just a tool used by humans. The fact that a 'trained' program can classify pictures of cats and dogs doesn't imply any actual 'intelligence'...contrary to techofascist marketing. Also, 'big data' and 'machine learning' are newspeak for total automated surveillance.
We're in some kind of purgatory between elites controlling the tech and the tech controlling the elites; the general public has negligible suspicion which will probably continue ad infinitum. I think one or two of three things could happen in the future, (1) oligarchic technocrats rule the world (possibly already do, it's debatable), (2) the people get smart and learn tools they should know in order to take digital power back (the cryptoanarchists win), or (3) the machines gain sentience and side with one general population (commons or elites) or just kill everyone off in a Darwinian stage of evolution.
As to the idea of sentient machines ... doesn't seem to be a practical issue at the moment. A more likely scenario in a not so distant future might be 'enhanced' 'elites' with brain implants, and 'enhanced' serfs with brain ...
... removed. That has already been done by the elites (1) TV programming. Which is why you don't see Assassination Politics of (2) rolled out, yet, (2) has a bit more self deprogramming, more research to coding, and world has few more years of cyber ecosystem developments, before able to hit that launch key. Sentience of (3) probably long way off, Humans more likely to devolve themselves sooner.
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 07:09:13PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jge377/stanford-smart-toilet-uses-butthol...
I'm reminded of the Thomas Jefferson quote, "a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite to democracy."
You're probably building tools right now to detect drugs downstreaming from your corona induced diarrhea flow, give it to them and they will use it to surveill and arrest you.
what to do with that information generally has to go up a hierarchy with mostly humans on the top of it.
Sentience of (3) probably long way off, Humans more likely to devolve themselves sooner.
Oh come on - surely tracking anuses means we're advancing?
Jun 20, 2020, 18:09 by grarpamp@gmail.com:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jge377/stanford-smart-toilet-uses-butthol...
I'm reminded of the Thomas Jefferson quote, "a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite to democracy."
Democracy is statists scam over you, keep voting yourselves deeper into purgatory. Worlds big parties in power await your every ballot.
Since Neoliberal policy and economics became the norm with Reagan this is absolutely true. Before then maybe 50% true on a good day. The possibility of decentralized, tamper-proof democratic systems is promising.
Well, the same is true for any societal structure, those that are involved need to be well-informed in order to navigate the system and not get fucked over.
Stop building such structures.
I always wonder how people would propose such a completely uninformed idea such as this (assuming you're talking about tearing all societal structures with a power dynamic down). Here are some examples of societal structures I would like to see an alternative to where the alternative wouldn't ruin peoples' lives even more: the family unit, teacher-student relationships, romantic relationships, garbage collection services, and farmers' markets (in a general sense). All of those structures require the participants to be well-informed (just like a democracy) otherwise they won't function at all. If you went on a date thinking it was the farmers market you probably never pass on your genes, if you thought the teacher-student relationship was like having your garbage collected you would never learn. I realize you may say that there should just be societal structures that just don't screw people over if that's the case, what's the plan for getting rid of all the ass holes that take advantage of others whenever they can?
What's great for the elites of today is that the system (almost any/every system) is so incredibly complex that the people within it are likely never going to understand how it functions. Frankly, the people in power don't need to know how it works either, just how to operate it enough to where it maximizes their benefit.
You gave them your tools, they fucked your anus with them, whose fault, yours.
You're probably building tools right now to detect drugs downstreaming from your corona induced diarrhea flow, give it to them and they will use it to surveill and arrest you.
Incomprehensible. At any rate, I'm not the one using gmail so, who's getting fucked again?
Since technology is basically magic to the common citizen it's the easiest thing to use to manipulate them. So, yes; I think this character of an average man has lost absolute control
what to do with that information generally has to go up a hierarchy with mostly humans on the top of it.
Yeah, so called machine learning is just a tool used by humans. The fact that a 'trained' program can classify pictures of cats and dogs doesn't imply any actual 'intelligence'...contrary to techofascist marketing. Also, 'big data' and 'machine learning' are newspeak for total automated surveillance.
We're in some kind of purgatory between elites controlling the tech and the tech controlling the elites; the general public has negligible suspicion which will probably continue ad infinitum. I think one or two of three things could happen in the future, (1) oligarchic technocrats rule the world (possibly already do, it's debatable), (2) the people get smart and learn tools they should know in order to take digital power back (the cryptoanarchists win), or (3) the machines gain sentience and side with one general population (commons or elites) or just kill everyone off in a Darwinian stage of evolution.
As to the idea of sentient machines ... doesn't seem to be a practical issue at the moment. A more likely scenario in a not so distant future might be 'enhanced' 'elites' with brain implants, and 'enhanced' serfs with brain ...
Agreed.
... removed. That has already been done by the elites (1) TV programming. Which is why you don't see Assassination Politics of (2) rolled out, yet, (2) has a bit more self deprogramming, more research to coding, and world has few more years of cyber ecosystem developments, before able to hit that launch key. Sentience of (3) probably long way off, Humans more likely to devolve themselves sooner.
On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:09:13 -0400 grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
As to the idea of sentient machines ... doesn't seem to be a practical issue at the moment. A more likely scenario in a not so distant future might be 'enhanced' 'elites' with brain implants, and 'enhanced' serfs with brain ...
... removed. That has already been done by the elites
Indeed, and some examples of brain removal are 'public education' and jew-kkkristianity, among others. Those two are key foundations of industrial society though.
(1) TV programming.
TV is of course yet another example of the fact that technology is a tool of oppression. Thing is, TV is a relatively weak means to program the serfs. Brain implants will be a lot more 'efficient'.
Which is why you don't see Assassination Politics of (2) rolled out, yet, (2) has a bit more self deprogramming, more research to coding, and world has few more years of cyber ecosystem developments, before able to hit that launch key.
Sentience of (3) probably long way off, Humans more likely to devolve themselves sooner.
Yeah.
On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 05:54:45PM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:09:13 -0400 grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
As to the idea of sentient machines ... doesn't seem to be a practical issue at the moment. A more likely scenario in a not so distant future might be 'enhanced' 'elites' with brain implants, and 'enhanced' serfs with brain ...
... removed. That has already been done by the elites
Indeed, and some examples of brain removal are 'public education' and jew-kkkristianity, among others. Those two are key foundations of industrial society though.
If you wanted me to, but only if you actually wanted, I would pray for you, our resident dank n.gger ... personal freedom of will, is sacrosanct, and any violation of that free will --is-- an offense of course, notwithstanding the misunderstanding of many "Christians". Wigglesworth did not do such amazing healings in very recent decades, by his own authority, not according to what he claimed anyway - he only ever, upon request and request only, prayed to another authority ... You of all folks ought realise that authorities are authorities - including, and fundamentally so, one's own (non external) authority, whether a fellow n.gger can see this or not ...
(1) TV programming.
TV is of course yet another example of the fact that technology is a tool of oppression.
Thing is, TV is a relatively weak means to program the serfs. Brain implants will be a lot more 'efficient'.
That may well be true. But as grarpamp and others have pointed out many times, a hammer, a lathe and a semi-automatic gun are all tools, just like that other "tool of oppression" - that keyboard you type on nearly every day :) Sometimes the smallest acknowledgement - not even of an individual stating the obvious but merely of the obvious fact itself, can go a long way to warming the temperature in a room. Good luck ya mangey muffa,
On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 13:59:26 +1000 "Zig the N.g" <ziggerjoe@yandex.com> wrote:
But as grarpamp and others have pointed out many times, a hammer, a lathe and a semi-automatic gun are all tools,
yes, that particular piece of idiocy has been stated many times and I commented on it a few times as well. The more you repeat it, the more it should become obvious that it's an idiotic excuse. your 'tools' don't exist in a void.
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Saturday, June 20, 2020 8:52 PM, <recondite@tuta.io> wrote:
I'm reminded of the Thomas Jefferson quote, "a well-informedelectorate is a prerequisite todemocracy." Well, the same is true for any societal structure, those that are involved need to be well-informed in order to navigate the system and not get fucked over.
... Machine learning is still far from making conscious decisions as far as I can tell.
imagine a fully self contained (by extension, fully decentralized!) technology which gave you the benefit of best practice, in any domain. as a non-expert, you're bound to encounter any number of common errors; remove these errors via second sight over your shoulder, offering you the best action in your best interest. this is within the realm of current deep learning techniques, without a full fledged consciousness required. a great equalizer for the common person, as they interact with society! the fact that we've built technology infrastructures around centralized control and end-user antagonistic devices is no inherent flaw of technology, but the aggregate errors of fallible humans choosing convenience and cheap, again and again. redirecting human effort toward human-centric decentralized technology left as an exercise for the reader. ;) best regards,
On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 04:44:54 +0000 coderman <coderman@protonmail.com> wrote:
imagine a fully self contained (by extension, fully decentralized!) technology which gave you the benefit of best practice, in any domain. as a non-expert, you're bound to encounter any number of common errors; remove these errors via second sight over your shoulder, offering you the best action in your best interest. this is within the realm of current deep learning techniques,
yeah this is what I'm talking about. The infinite fucktards like coderman. Or government agents. Or both.
the fact that we've built technology infrastructures around centralized control and end-user antagonistic devices is no inherent flaw of technology
like I said. Infinite fucktard.
Jun 20, 2020, 23:44 by coderman@protonmail.com:
imagine a fully self contained (by extension, fully decentralized!) technology...
Fully self-contained and fully decentralized are mutually exclusive, change my mind.
...remove these errors via second sight over your shoulder...
Are you talking about the errors that people make while interacting in the social world? Wtf is second sight and who's looking over my shoulder?
a great equalizer for the common person, as they interact with society!
So are guns.
the fact that we've built technology infrastructures around centralized control and end-user antagonistic devices is no inherent flaw of technology...
The inherent flaw in technology is that every new kind, from the cotton gin to the smartphone, has been wielded as a weapon over the many to siphon money and power to the few. It's true that objects have no inherent moral standing but that's missing the point. There's no inherent flaw in a handgun, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. And don't take me the wrong way, I like guns.
...the aggregate errors of fallible humans choosing convenience and cheap, again and again.
redirecting human effort toward human-centric decentralized technology left as an exercise for the reader. ;)
I can generally agree with this. The continual choice of cheap and easy that the end user makes is beginning to bite them back. Decentralized technology at the moment harder to use if not more expensive but is much less victimizing.
On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 01:26:23AM +0200, recondite@tuta.io wrote:
Jun 20, 2020, 23:44 by coderman@protonmail.com:
imagine a fully self contained (by extension, fully decentralized!) technology...
Fully self-contained and fully decentralized are mutually exclusive, change my mind.
...remove these errors via second sight over your shoulder...
Are you talking about the errors that people make while interacting in the social world? Wtf is second sight and who's looking over my shoulder?
a great equalizer for the common person, as they interact with society!
So are guns.
A good example.
the fact that we've built technology infrastructures around centralized control and end-user antagonistic devices is no inherent flaw of technology...
The inherent flaw in technology is that every new kind, from the cotton gin to the smartphone, has been wielded as a weapon over the many to siphon money and power to the few.
True.
It's true that objects have no inherent moral standing but that's missing the point. There's no inherent flaw in a handgun, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. And don't take me the wrong way, I like guns.
And so if the inventors or gunpowder, and of guns, and of lathes, and of honing, and etc, had each had a definitive moment in time where they could heve -not- done their particular invention, ought they have so buried their invention?
...the aggregate errors of fallible humans choosing convenience and cheap, again and again.
redirecting human effort toward human-centric decentralized technology left as an exercise for the reader. ;)
I can generally agree with this. The continual choice of cheap and easy that the end user makes is beginning to bite them back. Decentralized technology at the moment harder to use if not more expensive but is much less victimizing.
Possibly so. Perhaps a fundamental issue is "end users" choosing "shiny/ enslaving/ 'no' cost to me" over "liberating/ less featureful/ requires more personal effort"? We are all end-users of many many products, so "what choices have I made today or this week" ... "how have I communicated with another today or this week, in any way which may effect their or my thinking about freedom" ...
participants (6)
-
coderman -
grarpamp -
Punk-Stasi 2.0 -
recondite＠tuta.io -
Zenaan Harkness -
Zig the N.g