On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 11:03:15PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 03:37:29PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:

...

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 10:13:45PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

What causes our blindness?

...

...

- attachment to our own beliefs/ world views

...

You must only believe my ANTI-commie propaganda! That other stuff I spew out is highly suspect at the best of times...

Well, didn't you just write that "beliefs" cause blindness? And want me to "believe" you?

...

Zenaan Harkness wrote: To those who intentionally perpertrate deception, confusion, lies and evil, may the warriors of sanity tear your evil words to shreds!

Amen, brother.

Georgi Guninski wrote:

...

Well, if I don't believe in my world view, whom to believe? Your pro-commie propaganda? I can't believe i read such a boolshit comment from a human being with mind. Zenaan wrote ... teared his chest apart and took out his heart, put it down in front of all of us in this comment/essay (and not only here).. and what do we see? Such a superficial, stupid, arrogant comment.

Oh it is too easy to be harsh. I have been harsh much too much in the past (not so distant past too I might add - apologies again). To get to clarity inside ourselves is a long journey. I am hearing George's heart here - perhaps just a bit lost in his head, that is all. I get very lost in mine, far too often :/ Better perhaps to cut each other a little more slack - that's what I want for myself anyway. Passion is good, defence of good intentioned people who are being attacked is also good. I ask myself: how can we accomplish these goals, and make sure we help build up people who are wanting to be "good" by grokking their own conscience, finding their own center, and hopefully eventually acting in the world without just paving another road to hell. May be not easy, but all we have is each other. Need to expand the field of those who might act to help the world, as much as possible.

...

the majority of your posts on this lists boil down to: u$a bad (true IMHO), russia good (false IMHO). Again. super-superficial

Well, it is a genuine viewpoint, and I have not exactly posted much "negative" stuff about Russia. I see and agree that there is some negative stuff about Russia (some of the corrupt regional governors are finally getting a few lessons, but I assume there are quite a few more out there - hopefully they get the message and live a higher game going forward - we can only hope; also the backdoor for all encryption and ISPs must store all data for X period of time - it's pretty bad stuff, unfortunately). I said it before, but: on a whole-world scale, I think the world desperately needs a counter-force to USA. It is my firm opinion, in the face of the attempts by Saddam and Qaddafi (Qaddafi was deceived big time after his help to USA after 9/11, another despotic USA double cross and back stabbing - absolutely despicable!) to sell their oil in Euros (not Dinars, Euros mind you!) and the consequences thereafter, that Russia is the only man standing between USA hegemony, and a slightly software multi polar world. SO, strategically, we ABSOLUTELY NEED Russia. Who else can stop the hegemon? Even Russia cannot stop the hegemon by herself, but China, Brazil, and other countries were willing to take a stand behind Russia. How can we not be grateful for this? Brazil and other countries have since taken a beating, China keeps getting threatened, Russia is under eternal sanctions and her allies and buffer zones are being attacked and undermined, but together these nations are standing against the bully, the United States of America. Together they are still standing, despite the multitudinous attacks on the global south! I really, really hope that this stand against the global bully that is the USA, continues, and prevails. I hope that the USA hegemony falls - no matter the cost to North America or her allies, since the devastating cost that the USA is wreaking upon the world is unforgivable! The USA's actions over the last endless years, continuing today, day in and day out, is unforgivable! The hegemon must be brought down. (Sorry for being so wordy!) (PS Alex, thank you for your heart and your passion - what I thought was obvious, and is obvious to you, was evidently not so obvious.)

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 06:40:15PM +0300, Александр wrote:

2016-07-17 17:59 GMT+03:00 Zenaan Harkness :

...

I am hearing George's heart here

Oh, you just told Peter not to "throw" illusions on others... not to see good where there is total absence of it... and... TADAM. George's heart, Zen?! Please! I (and any observer with 1 mg mind and heart) can see in his comments/trolling NO heart (even no mind), but a heap of... you know what.

You may be right. I do not know him, nor what is in his mind/ his true intention. Perhaps he really intends to troll me. It is possible I could deserve that - I'm just a human, all humans are fallible. Perhaps I used less than the best words and should say "I am hoping to hear his heart" - perhaps that is clearer, perhaps not. Perhaps I am naieve and gullible, I don't know for sure. Perhaps we can agree on the following: 1. I have posted a lot of pro-Russia articles. 2. Before today I had not clarified in simple terms my belief that Russia is the only reason BRICS could be created, and the only reason other nations have the guts to stand together against the attacks from the USA. You see when I read George's words I read what I considered to be a "genuine bafflement" - as in, he was sort of asking me "dude, are just trolling us or what?" - that's certainly been suggested before. So since this "are you trolling?" keeps coming at me, then my next thought was "to me it seems obvious I'm not - I am trying to present relevant facts" - but relevant to what? Why is it that I say that Putin rescuing Russia from destruction as a nation, is a good thing? And then I had the "ahah!" moment and thought: I guess I haven't clearly stated my thesis of "a) USA vs the world, and b) Russia gives balls to the other countries" thesis. I hope it was useful for someone ... George perhaps. PS It's not fair for me to hide my thesis, to just assume everyone thinks the way I do, and from this point of view, it was a fair call (in my mind) for George to call me on it - perhaps there are other things I take for granted that make me look like a nut job, perhaps there always will be. I don't get much feedback see, so without George challenging me, I would not have been pushed to consider that may be I was withholding my viewpoint.

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 06:04:56PM -0300, juan wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 02:02:20 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

Perhaps we can agree on the following:

1. I have posted a lot of pro-Russia articles.

2. Before today I had not clarified in simple terms my belief that Russia is the only reason BRICS could be created, and the only reason other nations have the guts to stand together against the attacks from the USA.

We can argue/agree that having an alliance against the US is a good thing, in the short term at least. However...

...

Putin rescuing Russia from destruction as a nation, is a good thing?

...however, to go from the general idea of russia and china counterbalancing the anglo-american nazis to saying that putin is a great guy is...totally unwarrented.

As a matter of fact, I can argue that putin is a lot more friendly to his alleged 'western' enemies that he pretends to be.

And I'd agree with you. Putin sure wanted and tried hard over many years to create an alliance with the west, and genuine state-level economically mutually beneficial "partnership", with perks of "fighting the same 'bad' guys together". Over and over he kept/ keeps getting snubbed - so yes, the lack of any rapproachment between Russia and USA is certainly not for want of Russia trying... Perhaps this failure of USA to get in bed with Russia is a better long term outcome; I suspect so.

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 07:40:20AM +0300, Александр wrote:

Zen, you swallowed their provocations which misled all the discussion toward "putin VS us"/ oh, you misspelled my naaaame ;( / another bullshit -> which is NOT the issue here at all. Reread your first-core comment/essay which began all this thread and you'll see this total misdirection they lead you to-> which you are swallowing here instead of ignoring.

Important reminder of one of my many shortcomings, thanks.

You don't have the "duty" to answer ANY provocation/arrow/bullshit somebody writes (and in many cases even good point).

Another good point to remind me. Thanks.

You have a duty TO POINT something important out. And that's what you did by opening this thread and writing from the depth of your heart. All the rest is stupid loss of precious energy and feeding the conscious evil or just stupid people-pigs here. And that's not your intention if you are not crazy.

Let's remind the most important question: What can we do, collectively and or individually, to help to stop the North American human killing machine? Most else pales into significance. I am much too wordy most of the time - sorry abou that. It would be much better if I could say in one paragraph what takes me 10 pages. Regards,

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 06:04:56PM -0300, juan wrote:

...

Putin rescuing Russia from destruction as a nation, is a good thing?

...however, to go from the general idea of russia and china counterbalancing the anglo-american nazis to saying that putin is a great guy is...totally unwarrented.

As a matter of fact, I can argue that putin is a lot more friendly to his alleged 'western' enemies that he pretends to be.

Probably we are even more screwed up if the world is owned by common oligarchs and the usa vs. russia is just a reality show for the masses. The fall of socialism in europe and russia happened in a strange way IMHO.

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 04:42:14PM -0300, juan wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 08:46:28 +0300 Georgi Guninski wrote:

...

The fall of socialism in europe and russia happened in a strange way IMHO.

Strange, how? Care to elaborate?

I may be wrong on this, just a personal opinion about bulgaria. It came too fast, without any warnings signs. The system appeared to work -- there was lack of some goods and services, not of first need ones. Essentially there was no poverty. Nowadays, retired people are literally poor. They can hardly afford to pay the food, bills and medicines. Extreme conspiracy theories claimed Gorbachov was in bed with CIA. I doubt this could be possible without KGB's consent.

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 04:45:26PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 11:03:15PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 03:37:29PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:

...

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 10:13:45PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

What causes our blindness?

...

...

- attachment to our own beliefs/ world views

...

...

You must only believe my ANTI-commie propaganda! That other stuff I spew out is highly suspect at the best of times...

Well, didn't you just write that "beliefs" cause blindness? And want me to "believe" you?

Please! Find your own center! Do you have a conscience (serious question)? If so, what is it that --your-- conscience says is right, and says is wrong? Feel free to ask me what I believe, or think you "should" believe, or what can we do, or whatever, but ultimately the only thing that matters in this world is your own inner authority - what YOU choose to do and effect into this world as best you can! You can answer that question here, or hold it as a precious candle of righteousness inside yourself - that is always up to you - but choose wisely, foster that which is good and righteous inside yourself, do what you can to strengthen that part of yourself that is good for the world! Seriously, we (and I include myself here) in "the West" are truly schooled in various things which mostly disempower us and cause us to be really fucked up in a few fundamentals. Here are just two of them: 1) We humans seek external authority. grarpamp, what I believe or say ultimately shouldn't matter --to the things that are important to you personally--. In school from a terribly young age we "yes sir" and "no sir" and accept our punishment of detention when we rebel against the insanity, inanity and motivation-destroying environment that is "school" - 45 minutes and BANG there goes the fire bell! OFF to another class for you NO MATTER how engrossed you are in the current subject - even if you FINALLY managed to clear you mind just a little, start reading or start actually contemplating or juggling a thought or two but NO! PACK YOUR GEAR SON AND GET TO THE NEXT CLASS, you gotta change topic NOW!! And you obey. Because you have no option. Your parents sent you there. Everyone else obeys. We are schooled to obey. Except some drop out and or fail to learn even to read and write. But we learn that we must obey EXTERNAL authority! The school bell. The teacher. The parents. The police officer. The government. The think tank. So, grarpamp, do NOT project your authority onto me! Seriously STOP! For this world to have ANY hope of getting better, you must live your own authority. Of course this means you first find your authority, within yourself. All I can do is ask a question or two, post a hopefully provocative anti-pro-commie link to kick your brain, all Juan can do is try to point out a possible attachment you have to your government or a particular implied or explicit belief you seem to have and ask you (rhetorically) "grarpamp, do you really want to keep holding that belief?" Sometimes perhaps we should be asked by a Juan or a John "can you see what I see about what you say?" There is no perfect question! It is our own, individual job to wake up - we must do our part if we are to have any -hope- of waking up or at least seeing something we did not see before! You see, when you get caught up in "oh that's just propaganda" or "Juan you offended me I'm kill filing you", you are a sheep, lost in personality, lost in self pity, some sense of hurt or shame or pride or some other bullshit. Piss it off! Same goes for me - I've been caught up too many times in what I perceived as personal attacks on me SO many times its bloody embarrassing in hindsight. And next. I've witnessed my aggression towards others when I felt I was "unfairly" treated, jibed, dismissed or attacked - one or two incidents of this (my reactive aggressive towards another individual) have brought upon myself many years of personal heart pain. Life's a bitch - or rather, I've been a bitch, and I just hope people forgive me here and there, and that I catch myself more as I go forward, before I blurt out some hurtful or bullying statement. Memories can tear us apart, so I try to transform them into positive action arising from my conscience. Might not be much... but I try... Embrace the clarity that Juan thinks he brings for me (mostly) it looks like clarity - if you can't see it, and are blinded by some bullshit sense of personal injury, Fuck that off bro! The pity pot ain't useful for fixing this world! Seriously, who gives a rat's arse what Juan or I or anyone think about you? But truly, if you read between the lines, it looks to me like Juan really cares about you. Few go to such lengths as he does to say "dude, do you hear yourself!" Sure, you don't have to agree with him (or me, or anyone), you might think he's wrong, hell he might be wrong! Who cares? STOP TAKING IT PERSONALLY! We don't have time for that! "What is it I might not be seeing?" Most everyone round these parts (besides the CIA and USA apologists) is actually wanting and hoping that we might glean some new nugget to help us and others help this world, to help stop the evil that USA gov is perpetrating... Others use the list to dump their brain, to try to get clarity through feedback, to try to uncover some evil or potential problem presenting itself some place on the glove. Many just look and listen. It is heartbreaking to witness what's happening in the world, but we cannot look away, we must continue ... 2) We humans project our own nature onto others. Example: if we are 'lustful yet guilty feeling', we (humans) tend to assume most/ all others are lustful and guilty feeling - classic problem in relationships where partner A has an awesome partner B; partner B is vivacious, socially and sexually confident and matching the natural desires and appetite of partner A, and is naturally charismatic, so when in public, partner B is happy to flirt and "be cheeky" whilst knowing at all times they are faithful to their partner A since they are trustworthy and therefore trust themselves as well as their partner A; yet despite such an awesome partner B, partner A cannot cope because they themselves are insecure and sexually guilt-laden due to their "Church umbrella" upbringing, so they distrust partner B, they PROJECT onto partner B, the insecurities and lack of strength that they feel themselves, and far too often, for such reasons, partner A breaks off the relationship! So (Peter I'm looking at you on this one :) stop projecting on your "leaders" in your "democratic UK government" that just because they "debate" a new Act, don't assume it is an Act which has good intention behind it, don't assume that the words that can be taken to have meanings that clearly actively against our interests, "might not really be against us, or here's hoping" - that way lies madness and the well paved roads to hell! Just because -you- have good intentions, don't assume others do. Of course, assume good faith, but --vigorously-- test their bullshit (including mine of course!) in case they have bad intention. If they truly have good intention, they will thank you and fix up their bullshit, if they don't, they are either terminally schooled, or active against our interests. Good luck,

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 01:24:29AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

grarpamp, what I believe or say ultimately shouldn't matter --to the things that are important to you personally--.

Sorry, mixed up who I was replying to - grarpamp, George, blah blah

Try again to guess to whom you were replying, not that this matters to you I suppose.

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 02:08:31AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

People matter to me. Individuals matter to me. My principles matter to me.

Did you notice you miZZpelled my name about 5 times, ZenUUn? Rejecting "authority", while trolling for Russia? Isn't she YOUR AUTHORITY?

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 03:37:29PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 10:13:45PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

What causes our blindness?

...

...

- attachment to our own beliefs/ world views

Well, if I don't believe in my world view, whom to believe?

Your pro-commie propaganda?

CNN?

In addition, do your "world views" make you blind? IMHO, the majority of your posts on this lists boil down to: u$a bad (true IMHO), russia good (false IMHO).

...

- attachment to our own beliefs/ world views

Well, if I don't believe in my world view, whom to believe?

Your pro-commie propaganda? CNN?

Who to believe? Try getting out and traveling. You can experience reality without believing anything. Then you can formulate differing opinions into new synthesis of understanding. Understand that concept from Hegel, it can enlighten you. \0x

In what sense was it rhetorical? Do you think he wasn't wondering what or whom to believe amidst conflicting stories? It's not a simple question when the media bombards you with it. And, sorry, Hegel is likely the only answer as it incorporates the scientific method as well as EVERY OTHER. Was there another? \0x On 7/17/16, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

On Jul 17, 2016 4:28 PM, "Xer0Dynamite" wrote:

...

Who to believe? Try getting out and traveling. You can experience

reality without believing anything. Then you can formulate differing opinions into new synthesis of understanding.

...

Understand that concept from Hegel, it can enlighten you.

Mark,

Georgi was making a rethorical question only. And, sorry, in my opinion, Hegel is not the best answer. I tried it when I was a pretentious teenager. Now, I am just pretentious, hihi... ;)

(But not so much as Zenaan, ugh!)

Take care!

- c.

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 04:52:36PM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

Now, I am just pretentious, hihi... ;)

(But not so much as Zenaan, ugh!)

Just call me Mr Subtle... my humility should precede me, so better you drum it home for those who miss the point, how humble I really am - quite amazing really...