Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy". Do you use gmail for your main / private / important emails, in addition to list correspondence? Or do you consider the internet so pwned that it doesnt matter? (although, why make it easier for them..) I'm just curious... I started getting squeamish about it myself a good few years back, before snowden, just because it seems like an obviously bad idea to house all my correspondence at the HQ of one of the biggest corporations in the world, for them to play with, mine, and cross-index for targeted advertising as they see fit.. Setting up your own mail server (postfix+spamassasin+...clamav+..whatever) isn't really that hard, although you gotta pay a hosting fee, depending on how you decide to do it. And I guess there are other alternatives to gmail that are much better in this area, although I'm still inclined to use my own thing.. -- John
On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 8:05 AM, John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
I assumed from the beginning that they'd examine everything that passed through their servers. "If you're not paying for it, you're not the customer, you're the product" has been Cypherpunks wisdom since forever. Gmail has my main mail accounts, for various work, personal, and list stuff. I'm not too worried about privacy for this, as I don't put anything sensitive where outsiders can see it. (Though sometimes other people send sensitive info to my gmail accounts, which pisses me off.) I have a couple non-gmail accounts for various purposes, but these are also free accounts and I assume no privacy there. Formerly I ran email servers of my own. Let those slide mainly because keeping up with the patches and the spam was too time-consuming. For anything I want to keep secure, I use encryption. I had been relying on encrypted email -- GPG on my end, usually a PGP mail client plugin on the other end. I'm getting away from that because certain email correspondents who are not me seem to have trouble with even the relatively-easy-to-use plugins. eg, one normally technically savvy guy kept sending me signed rather than encrypted messages containing very sensitive material, and another guy could not manage to send me an encrypted message that I could decrypt. Lately I've been using non-email communications if I want to keep it private. A variant of a "send a message to this website's administrator" page, transmitted over SSL, is good enough for my purposes. It's not encrypted on my server and the response page is not encrypted on the recipient's computer, but at least it is (or should be) safe from casual snooping along the way. None of the above is meant to be the definitive answer to private communications or to worries about snooping. So far as I know it works well enough for my expected threats. Suggestions for improvement are welcome.
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 09:22:52AM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
For anything I want to keep secure, I use encryption. I had been relying on encrypted email -- GPG on my end, usually a PGP mail client plugin on the other end. I'm getting away from that because certain email correspondents who are not me seem to have trouble with even the relatively-easy-to-use plugins. eg, one normally technically savvy guy kept sending me signed rather than encrypted messages containing very sensitive material, and another guy could not manage to send me an encrypted message that I could decrypt.
Run your own server, preferably at home. Provide a web frontend. Have those people who you need secure communication with sign up for a fancy new email account, on your server. Only send email to their email account on your server. If it's really really important, block their email account from sending email outside your server - they can still download attachments, but they can't "make an easy mistake" since they have to be intentional. If you provide POP or IMAP access, only allow encrypted access. If your contacts use the web interface, and you -really- want "security" (to the level you are confident in your own server at least), then issue your own Certificate Authority and server Certificate, and meet your contacts in person, manually installing your server certificate into their browser certificate directory! NEVER trust ANY external Certificate Authority for any server or communications that is highly sensitive! Feel el1te!!!
Lately I've been using non-email communications if I want to keep it private.
If it's on a phone or fax, or in front of a Samsung TV, or near any land line phone that's been certified by your national telecommunications authority, or in a public WIFI cafe which is likely bugged, or near any mobile phones that are switched on, or .... etc ... then assume your conversation is property of your national government and most likely the "five eyes" (USA, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Germany).
A variant of a "send a message to this website's administrator" page, transmitted over SSL, is good enough for my purposes. It's not encrypted on my server and the response page is not encrypted on the recipient's computer, but at least it is (or should be) safe from casual snooping along the way.
None of the above is meant to be the definitive answer to private communications or to worries about snooping. So far as I know it works well enough for my expected threats. Suggestions for improvement are welcome.
Use a chat application which provides PFS/ perfect forward secrecy, and allows transfer of files - that's another approach. There are plenty more.
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 08:05:29AM -0400, John Newman wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream?
I had technical reasons to need to, and then momentum and a stream of life events meant it took me ~8 years (since pre general availability when it was invite only) to break that addiction! That's long time to be without a libre email stack, and a long time to be dependent on a company that, to justify the money they take from the NSA, having already stopped saying "do no evil" a few years back when they went into China, -now- has to further say:
They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Build your own network. Rollout your own home servers/ open stack/ etc. It's the only way you will ever get any "reasonable expectation of privacy" honoured! Enjoy the ride, too :)
Setting up your own mail server (postfix+spamassasin+...clamav+..whatever) isn't really that hard, although you gotta pay a hosting fee,
Few ISPs provide a fixed IP address for free if you ask, some certainly provide a fixed IP if you pay a little extra every month. Recommended to have two IP addresses too - have fun :)
On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:38 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote: Build your own network. Rollout your own home servers/ open stack/ etc. It's the only way you will ever get any "reasonable expectation of privacy" honoured!
Enjoy the ride, too :)
Agreed!
Setting up your own mail server (postfix+spamassasin+...clamav+..whatever) isn't really that hard,
Few ISPs provide a fixed IP address for free if you ask, some certainly provide a fixed IP if you pay a little extra every month.
Recommended to have two IP addresses too - have fun :)
I actually meant getting a VPS or cheap rack mount server at one of many many possible hosting facilities... where a /29 plus like more IPv6 addresses then you will ever need usually comes standard... -- john
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 10:22:18AM -0400, John Newman wrote:
On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:38 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote: Build your own network. Rollout your own home servers/ open stack/ etc. It's the only way you will ever get any "reasonable expectation of privacy" honoured!
Enjoy the ride, too :)
Agreed!
Setting up your own mail server (postfix+spamassasin+...clamav+..whatever) isn't really that hard,
Few ISPs provide a fixed IP address for free if you ask, some certainly provide a fixed IP if you pay a little extra every month.
Recommended to have two IP addresses too - have fun :)
I actually meant getting a VPS or cheap rack mount server at one of many many possible hosting facilities... where a /29 plus like more IPv6 addresses then you will ever need usually comes standard...
Renting a VPS is not ownership of the server/host. If you don't own or at least control (physical access and all) the hardware, your server's RAM is owned/pwned. Think: VM is migrated across the hosting provider network, RAM and all. Think: Root in the host, has access to RAM of all guests. Think. If you don't own it, you don't control it. If you don't control it, it will be used against you.
On Thu, Jul 07, 2016 at 01:13:54AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 10:22:18AM -0400, John Newman wrote: Renting a VPS is not ownership of the server/host.
If you don't own or at least control (physical access and all) the hardware, your server's RAM is owned/pwned.
Think: VM is migrated across the hosting provider network, RAM and all.
Think: Root in the host, has access to RAM of all guests.
Think.
Yes, I'm well aware of this distinction :) However, I consider it a fair trade off against consolidating all my email and contacts in plain text to google. You have to pick your battles. Find a hosting provider you can trust, or at least think you can trust, HEH. Alternatively, just lease a small 1U box. I had this service for free for like 10 years working at various ISPs. Of course, you STILL don't control any of the switching or routing fabric or whatever netwitness style gestapo software they may be running outside your rack... and this is true even if you were to run everything at home off your personal cable modem/DSL. You don't control the upstream from your house. -- John
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/06/2016 12:28 PM, John Newman wrote:
However, I consider it a fair trade off against consolidating all my email and contacts in plain text to google. You have to pick your battles. Find a hosting provider you can trust, or at least think you can trust, HEH.
I trust Pair Networks to stay in business long enough to be useful, to provide competent tech support, and to refrain from most of the grossly abusive customer service tactics that are standard features in that industry. Apparently they decided early on to market to a professional audience using "quality" to differentiate their brand. It worked on me. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXfTzZAAoJEECU6c5XzmuqvD8H+wdRKZuFT4cFklH8eWu138oZ PfnHFOGIlxulkQSpO+CFNqxDbgmTYbMNtK1slro6aHqRSRa6YiIOFP95Nm6piQid L5uJsj0jgB0ZmzzKoFoDGoWrE+d4nKG0EbXiNPCGrGARXLulqSjp4HOUf71tr2mP 8oxgBH8062qYZvljRPFvX2FHVw0TqkLFGtpTsGwQ2rthEJhJMTRidVRbY0l5veNL RNCu/6cqhlWR7p9TUMC/+LEp2LCTp+3sIlsAheCkORXCgcrl8jJu8clf4eic1RcD SLxb6YDy1UM26SGyXCLBIFRpmuiRptKEQ/lfWloiXbjLGWMOVU3D7Y/7EpuZ+5E= =rqYZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Users have an expectation of privacy, but not necessarily a right to it. Without payment of services, there is no implied contract. (That can be argued both ways though.) You can encrypt your message within gmail (or any free email provider). marxos
99% of my email massages go/come to/from a gmail account, so it's useless to spend time setting up my own mail server. There are several ways to send sensitive information (actually I don't think email is one of them). I'm using hubzilla (former redmatrix) for a few years now, you should give a try. -- Oda ------------------------------------------------------ If you don't have time to do it right, where are you going to find the time to do it over? ------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Xer0Dynamite <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Users have an expectation of privacy, but not necessarily a right to it. Without payment of services, there is no implied contract. (That can be argued both ways though.)
You can encrypt your message within gmail (or any free email provider).
marxos
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:15:34PM -0300, Oda wrote:
99% of my email massages go/come to/from a gmail account, so it's useless to spend time setting up my own mail server.
There are several ways to send sensitive information (actually I don't think email is one of them). I'm using hubzilla (former redmatrix) for a few years now, you should give a try.
"Should", should I? It may be good, but hey, "it's useless to spend time setting up my own mail server" - well consider this burner email address burnt. Your personal need for centralised services may well mean you personally find certain things useless. Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists.
On Jul 7, 2016 12:06 AM, "Zenaan Harkness" <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:15:34PM -0300, Oda wrote:
99% of my email massages go/come to/from a gmail account, so it's
There are several ways to send sensitive information (actually I don't
useless to spend time setting up my own mail server. think email is one of them). I'm using hubzilla (former redmatrix) for a few years now, you should give a try.
"Should", should I?
It may be good, but hey, "it's useless to spend time setting up my own
mail server" - well consider this burner email address burnt.
Your personal need for centralised services may well mean you personally
find certain things useless.
Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists.
Tsk, tsk... Oh, my dear Master Y-Oda, your suggestions are a disgrace to anarchists... Bad, bad boy! I will tell you horrible dad jokes and send Justin Bieber lyrics until you stop being an anarchist disgrace! ;) Zen, I didn't know Master Y-Oda was here, but it was an unexpected joy. I call him 'FOdastico Mestre YOda' (something like "F*cking Fantastic Master YOda") and several other strange names, because he is almost a "ninja master" in several subjects, is a very practical person and has an awesome sense of humor. Yesterday, I wrote a long letter to a hackerspace and mentioned Master Y-Oda as reference. Believe me, you can not agree with his opinions and suggestions, as I also do in some moments, but this guy does deserve our respect, Zen. Oda is able of discreetely trolling governments, always smiling and listening to music. Not necessarily good music, because we have pretty different musical tastes in some moments, haha!! ;D He not only thinks out the box, he kicks the box, my dear. Oda has an amazing sense of humor, a fantastic intelligence, a strong personality and a lovely hair. Not so gorgeous as ryziek's hair, of course, but I love Oda and all the things that make him so special. Kind soul, practical actions, unexpected ideas, creative hackings, dark sense of humor and beautiful hair included, haha!! ;D Governments, police, teachers and my own parents can't make me stop an argument. Oda can do it just saying "Stop, Ceci". I think it shows you how much I respect him. I have good reasons for it, Zen. He was trying to help. If you didn't appreciate his suggestions, believe me, he absolutely doesn't care. The same about being an anarchist disgrace, hihi! ;) Warm hugs! Cecilia
Cecilia, your words remind me that I jump the gun in my expressions, which are unnecessarily harsh. Thank you for your gentle reminder. Oda, please accept my apologies for being unnecessarily harsh, it's embarrassing to be reminded so warmly be Cecilia. Much love everyone, Zenaan On Thu, Jul 07, 2016 at 08:01:08AM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
On Jul 7, 2016 12:06 AM, "Zenaan Harkness" <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:15:34PM -0300, Oda wrote:
On 07/07/2016 04:01 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
On Jul 7, 2016 12:06 AM, "Zenaan Harkness" <zen@freedbms.net <mailto:zen@freedbms.net>> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:15:34PM -0300, Oda wrote:
99% of my email massages go/come to/from a gmail account, so it's
There are several ways to send sensitive information (actually I
don't think email is one of them). I'm using hubzilla (former redmatrix) for a few years now, you should give a try.
"Should", should I?
It may be good, but hey, "it's useless to spend time setting up my own mail server" - well consider this burner email address burnt.
Your personal need for centralised services may well mean you
useless to spend time setting up my own mail server. personally find certain things useless.
Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists.
Tsk, tsk... Oh, my dear Master Y-Oda, your suggestions are a disgrace to anarchists... Bad, bad boy! I will tell you horrible dad jokes and send Justin Bieber lyrics until you stop being an anarchist disgrace! ;)
Zen, I didn't know Master Y-Oda was here, but it was an unexpected joy. I call him 'FOdastico Mestre YOda' (something like "F*cking Fantastic Master YOda") and several other strange names, because he is almost a "ninja master" in several subjects, is a very practical person and has an awesome sense of humor.
Yesterday, I wrote a long letter to a hackerspace and mentioned Master Y-Oda as reference. Believe me, you can not agree with his opinions and suggestions, as I also do in some moments, but this guy does deserve our respect, Zen.
Oda is able of discreetely trolling governments, always smiling and listening to music. Not necessarily good music, because we have pretty different musical tastes in some moments, haha!! ;D
He not only thinks out the box, he kicks the box, my dear. Oda has an amazing sense of humor, a fantastic intelligence, a strong personality and a lovely hair. Not so gorgeous as ryziek's hair, of course, but I love Oda and all the things that make him so special. Kind soul, practical actions, unexpected ideas, creative hackings, dark sense of humor and beautiful hair included, haha!! ;D
Governments, police, teachers and my own parents can't make me stop an argument. Oda can do it just saying "Stop, Ceci". I think it shows you how much I respect him. I have good reasons for it, Zen.
He was trying to help. If you didn't appreciate his suggestions, believe me, he absolutely doesn't care. The same about being an anarchist disgrace, hihi! ;)
Warm hugs!
Cecilia
To knock off Joe Hill's last words to Bill Bill Haywood "Don't criticize, analyze." If you have a prob with somone's POV Zenaan, task them about it, don't talk meaningless smack like "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists." Rr
On Jul 7, 2016 12:29 PM, "Rayzer" <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
To knock off Joe Hill's last words to Bill Bill Haywood
"Don't criticize, analyze."
If you have a prob with somone's POV Zenaan, task them about it, don't
talk meaningless smack like "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists." Hmm... Sorry, I didn't understand, Rayzer. :-/ Who said "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists" was Zenaan, about Oda's message. I never would say this kind of thing and I didn't like it. So, I told Zen who Oda was... :P
Ah, Rayzer, as you answered after my message, I am considering you are kicking me, not Zenaan! :P Please, spanking hurts less than kicks! :P On Jul 7, 2016 1:19 PM, "Cecilia Tanaka" <cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 7, 2016 12:29 PM, "Rayzer" <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
To knock off Joe Hill's last words to Bill Bill Haywood
"Don't criticize, analyze."
If you have a prob with somone's POV Zenaan, task them about it, don't
talk meaningless smack like "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists."
Hmm... Sorry, I didn't understand, Rayzer. :-/
Who said "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists" was Zenaan, about Oda's message.
I never would say this kind of thing and I didn't like it. So, I told Zen who Oda was... :P
No... I'm kicking Zeenan. I hadn't read yours before posting. Consider it addition to what you were saying. Joe Hill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hill On 07/07/2016 09:29 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
Ah, Rayzer, as you answered after my message, I am considering you are kicking me, not Zenaan! :P
Please, spanking hurts less than kicks! :P
On Jul 7, 2016 1:19 PM, "Cecilia Tanaka" <cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com <mailto:cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Jul 7, 2016 12:29 PM, "Rayzer" <rayzer@riseup.net <mailto:rayzer@riseup.net>> wrote: > > To knock off Joe Hill's last words to Bill Bill Haywood > > "Don't criticize, analyze." > > If you have a prob with somone's POV Zenaan, task them about it, don't talk meaningless smack like "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists."
Hmm... Sorry, I didn't understand, Rayzer. :-/
Who said "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists" was Zenaan, about Oda's message.
I never would say this kind of thing and I didn't like it. So, I told Zen who Oda was... :P
On Jul 7, 2016 2:04 PM, "Rayzer" <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
No... I'm kicking Zeenan. I hadn't read yours before posting. Consider it
addition to what you were saying.
Joe Hill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hill
Oh, in this case, I think Zen will prefer being kicked than spanked! ;) Thank you for the references, dear. I've spent my last hours in a hospital and I am in a horrible mood. So, I was searching "anarchist disgrace" to have some fun. It didn't work well, but was curious, haha!! ;D
On Jul 7, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote: To knock off Joe Hill's last words to Bill Bill Haywood
"Don't criticize, analyze."
If you have a prob with somone's POV Zenaan, task them about it, don't talk meaningless smack like "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists."
Big Bill... one of I think only two Americans buried in the Kremlin necropolis. He fucking split when out on appeal during that 20s red scare. -- John
On 07/08/2016 09:53 AM, John Newman wrote:
On Jul 7, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote: To knock off Joe Hill's last words to Bill Bill Haywood
"Don't criticize, analyze."
If you have a prob with somone's POV Zenaan, task them about it, don't talk meaningless smack like "Implying your suggestions are fact is a disgrace to anarchists."
Big Bill... one of I think only two Americans buried in the Kremlin necropolis. He fucking split when out on appeal during that 20s red scare.
-- John
He was rounded up in the Palmer Red Raids first... Many European immigrants also fled about that time, which essentially destroyed the IWW which was mostly EU anarchist immigrants like Joe Hill. Where I live there was one old American Wobbly left when I got here in the mid-70s... Tom Scribner, the Musical Saw Player "Tom became a legendary musical saw player; he appeared on an album with Neil Young, and also played with George Harrison on the Larry Hosford album "Crosswords." He appeared on a Charles Kuralt "On the Road" special, and was on various other television broadcasts. He was also a featured person in the documentary file "The Wobblies" due to his active participation in formation of the IWW labor union." http://www.scribnerfamilies.org/Images6.htm
On 07/06/2016 05:05 AM, John Newman wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Do you use gmail for your main / private / important emails, in addition to list correspondence?
Or do you consider the internet so pwned that it doesnt matter? (although, why make it easier for them..)
I'm just curious... I started getting squeamish about it myself a good few years back, before snowden, just because it seems like an obviously bad idea to house all my correspondence at the HQ of one of the biggest corporations in the world, for them to play with, mine, and cross-index for targeted advertising as they see fit..
Setting up your own mail server (postfix+spamassasin+...clamav+..whatever) isn't really that hard, although you gotta pay a hosting fee, depending on how you decide to do it. And I guess there are other alternatives to gmail that are much better in this area, although I'm still inclined to use my own thing..
The only thing I use Gmail for is newsletters and an occasional official mail to businesses. If google wants to parse my interests by what I receive in the way of newsletters I really don't give a fuck. I get Stratfor, Reuters, Foreign Policy, Foreign Policy In Focus, The Economist... A dozen others. I hope their AI chokes on it. Speaking of AI... I posted a FB status about a gay man in Illinois who burned a flag, in drag, and then posted it as a profile pic on FB. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210289592215367&set=a.1674617904466.91080.1207997125&type=3&theater He was arrested under an Illinois state flag defacement law and then released b/c that law violates a 1989 Supreme ruling that flag burning is constitutionally protected. A few minutes later I noticed a Sponsored Sidebar ad... Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/BnrCbZu.png If you post on Facebook with the hashtags #LGBT and #Flagburner you end up seeing sidebar ads for incestuous pedobears at answersDOTCom. The pic IS SFW (I guess)... Rr
On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
The only thing I use Gmail for is newsletters and an occasional official mail to businesses.
Yeah I use it myself for a few things, signing into the google overlord to gain access to the marvels. E.g. I like google voice, I like being able to use a standard rom on any android phones I have. Also, convenient for other stuff I don’t worry about, linked to a few accounts here and there, OAuth’ing in through google can be convenient sometimes, etc.. Google maps is nice. Heh. :) — John
John Newman:
On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
The only thing I use Gmail for is newsletters and an occasional official mail to businesses.
Yeah I use it myself for a few things, signing into the google overlord to gain access to the marvels. E.g. I like google voice, I like being able to use a standard rom on any android phones I have.
Also, convenient for other stuff I don’t worry about, linked to a few accounts here and there, OAuth’ing in through google can be convenient sometimes, etc..
Google maps is nice. Heh. :)
— John
why anyone ever would want to use gmail is beyond me. especially on the cypherpunks list. we should all know better. greenblue
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/06/2016 08:05 AM, John Newman wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Do you use gmail for your main / private / important emails, in addition to list correspondence?
Or do you consider the internet so pwned that it doesnt matter? (although, why make it easier for them..)
"Obsessive avoidance of Internet surveillance does not take you off the radar, it only takes you out of the game." - Me When it comes to the "chilling effects" of State surveillance, everybody who subscribes to CPunks is a member of a certain type of Polar Bear Club. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. I use GMail accounts as spam filters, i.e. destination addresses for contact forms on websites, and as logins for G-Everything services like Google Analytics. Google Analytics does make it "easier" for Google's best friend, tech support department and business partner NSA to keep track of who is visiting the websites in question, but the trade-off in utility for yrs. truly & clients more than justifies that. Anybody who wants a lower profile on the networks already blocks execution of javascript except from whitelisted domains, and blocks calls from their browsers to any URL with the string "analytics" in its URL. I did register a domain name and hire a hosting service /just/ so I could have real e-mail accounts, more or less under my own control. I did this for convenience, not any belief that it presents a barrier to State surveillance. On a related note, something truly horrible: I have an active account with NSA subsidiary The Facebook. Initially I set it up to test "social network integration" features when making websites: You can't market to the rubes in the cheap seats unless you can see the Internet through their piggy little eyes. Eventually I decided "what the hell" and started pumping out propaganda there. This led directly to physical participation in the local activist & radical scene. Given that my network traffic has been flagged for full take and permanent retention by every U.S. intelligence service capable of same since such capabilities first became available, I am sure that my presence on The Facebook does more harm to them and their interests than it does to me and my interests. State surveillance at least guarantees one an audience. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXfTs5AAoJEECU6c5XzmuqUU0IAILk8R3x+ksm81gQHFZtq14U lWHte1kXuUqDOpgKFgqYgPK3Kz08T1VCGdVFTbdLbqBvKjckBo9pBcY3M1Lr4Las S4/Yd5z0BMCu9oskNV4+UgSzB/Yes0+flSdTLUUhCcNuqbN4Er6cf0ceF6Jz2gO6 P3dBVuQ8oty5bbO/ifExb28GxLBswbRy/RLXJ/oH3WJAmftWz8BC+BXLDQudHR1q mfcqkjkKEhJWPIeop7fdPn9D07vd5C0BYV+89Swl4IGIHCRhJX72z30aUxSdZfkd B99Bx3alffllboYugDYawm1u7DrXSbPsBsmrk6odjwxz2QZR4y8+a6xuZLWDc2Y= =gMLs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 07/06/2016 10:09 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
"Obsessive avoidance of Internet surveillance does not take you off the radar, it only takes you out of the game." - Me
Cops notice people who drive too well. "Drive it like it's stolen" can mean drive it so no one notices as well as wild in the street. Wheelmen for professional bank/jewelery store robbery teams tend to be pretty good drivers too. Obsessive avoidance does not take you out of the game. It actually make you a person of interest. It's best to swim like any other phish in the internet sea unless you abso-positiv-lutely need the secrecy, THEN you use those techniques. It's a dissuasion/obfuscation tactic. Rr
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/06/2016 01:28 PM, Rayzer wrote:
On 07/06/2016 10:09 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
"Obsessive avoidance of Internet surveillance does not take you off the radar, it only takes you out of the game." - Me
Cops notice people who drive too well.
"Drive it like it's stolen" can mean drive it so no one notices as well as wild in the street. Wheelmen for professional bank/jewelery store robbery teams tend to be pretty good drivers too.
I have long considered this a minor but common cognitive error: It present a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. My suggestion: When you do drugs, don't drink and drive.
Obsessive avoidance does not take you out of the game. It actually make you a person of interest.
That's on the record via a non-Snowden leak of NSA filter rules published by a German paper. But obsessive avoidance of surveillance takes one out of the game of propaganda and networking for IRL political actions. It also limits one's ability to monitor opposition propaganda and team building efforts. That's a big win for the opposition: The so-called chilling effect of mass surveillance that makes Liberals run and hide while the Radicals laugh and high five each other.
It's best to swim like any other phish in the internet sea unless you abso-positiv-lutely need the secrecy, THEN you use those techniques. It's a dissuasion/obfuscation tactic.
It is also beneficial to use evasive tools and tactics on a regular basis whether you need to or not, both to maintain the tools, stay current on the state of those arts, and so that occasional use of such tools for practical purposes will not stand out as red flag indicators that you are doing something especially interesting. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXfXQmAAoJEECU6c5XzmuqcToH/iwKKhfcJ+U3EElKVNK8PC1a 2GG7pX/s+wo+7kzVXnMlxn9xb4zMk49y9t8h3+h5Ky3duZ8fC4MtQbc98d6vLUom xp/B8Obj3KxrP+JD7PpTdwBJfwoWwVPoX6ZTmME2okdMsW4ML9f2A3ZroERUdUsY A0EQyJ5c4ctAEGGVkBkkNhEjrBse71uuw4C0cMOSQ9lDhCDZC03H160IvPC+8x7i vQsrtl/K1/MvMCwY7uCC5fUE1Jctd+UHQYnOhb05x2jPsE5INHrZJdqFbJNNGnlz myPdXSyiLIH8SYTakQjGuZmL7hBRCy2NxQ9q1ZaJQIQ/NdxsuucpGscCeAizfPk= =pfNw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:05 AM, John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Don't make any political statement on the internet that you would not feel comfortable shouting from the steps of city hall to a crowd of baleful law enforcers. This is the meaning of "free speech" in Soviet America.
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:49:59PM -0700, Jason McVetta wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:05 AM, John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Don't make any political statement on the internet that you would not feel comfortable shouting from the steps of city hall to a crowd of baleful law enforcers.
This is the meaning of "free speech" in Soviet America.
In Soviet Fascist Amerika, free speech fuck you.
On 07/06/2016 08:12 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:49:59PM -0700, Jason McVetta wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:05 AM, John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Don't make any political statement on the internet that you would not feel comfortable shouting from the steps of city hall to a crowd of baleful law enforcers.
This is the meaning of "free speech" in Soviet America. In Soviet Fascist Amerika, free speech fuck you.
I shouted fuck you at a cop from across the street just yesterday, for reasons not relevant here but let's just say he was hassling a 'poor person'. The motherfucker shouted back "Watch your language! There's children around." I shouted back "You have rooms full of NA and AA kids here because your CRIMINAL city government doesn't give a FUCK if there's jobs or housing for them so they're 'checking out' early and you're worried about my FUCKING language!" that he was a coward to hide behind children like that... Stupid pig stare from across the street. You have the right to remain silent You have the right to free speech f you're stupid enough to try it. Rr
On Wed, 2016-07-06 at 08:05 -0400, John Newman wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Do you use gmail for your main / private / important emails, in addition to list correspondence?
I use Gmail for as little as possible, usually only to email myself things to my main account on Fastmail (rushpost.com is one of their vanity domains). The "theft alerts" on my Android phone go to my Gmail because there's no way to send them elsewhere. A few emails from Google go there because it's either a pain in the ass or impossible to send them elsewhere. It's also another backup email for my social media accounts. In a perfect world I believe I wouldn't have to use Gmail at all. There is a reason we have the ability to put other domains after the "@" after all. -- Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn@rushpost.com>
I believe that the best option is to be aware that everything that you're sending is systematically scanned by machine learning algorithms, stored and sent to whichever has the money/ power to convince your email provider. This applies to gmail or any other company. If your corncern is that your mail are only read by the person you intend to, you could perfectly use gmail with gpg and be sure enough that your messages won't be read until the advent of quantum computing. Protonmail is doing this basically from a webmail, so you don't have to worry about managing your keys, *only* trust that they encrypt well your private key. But if your level of tinfoil hat-edness is high enough you probably shouldn't be using email at all, but other protocols with perfect forward secrecy, and mechanisms that you can make sure that the messages you send can be securely erased. In an increase of paranoia, Whatsapp/Signal/Jabber+OTR+Tor are good choices. All these options use a client-server model in which you have to "somehow" that they don't leak the metadata to national agencies or such, even though they are not able to obtain the plain texts of your messages in a foreseeable future. You could run your own Jabber server, get a certificate, and route the messages through tor yourself, but it obviously takes time. Pond, which has been discussed many times in this list, is the closest you can get to email, without being email. Difficult to categorize but worth looking are Bitmessage, which is "like" mail, but uses bitcoin's blockchain protocol, and Ricochet, which send messages by running hidden services. It does not provide encryption beyond the transport layer provided by tor. Then, it comes the turn of serverless systems that are somewhat less known. Your messages get to their destination in a similar fashion that you get files through torrent. There are promising projects such as Tox which isn't a messaging app in itself, but a protocol (famous clients exist such as qTox or uTox), Retroshare, Ring (found by one of the creators of Skype) etc. At the end it depends mainly on your needs, and how nuts you are. Hope this helps. John Newman:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
Do you use gmail for your main / private / important emails, in addition to list correspondence?
Or do you consider the internet so pwned that it doesnt matter? (although, why make it easier for them..)
I'm just curious... I started getting squeamish about it myself a good few years back, before snowden, just because it seems like an obviously bad idea to house all my correspondence at the HQ of one of the biggest corporations in the world, for them to play with, mine, and cross-index for targeted advertising as they see fit..
Setting up your own mail server (postfix+spamassasin+...clamav+..whatever) isn't really that hard, although you gotta pay a hosting fee, depending on how you decide to do it. And I guess there are other alternatives to gmail that are much better in this area, although I'm still inclined to use my own thing..
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 08:05:29AM -0400, John Newman wrote:
Do any gmail users (which I've noticed there a lot of on the list, as well as in real life, heh) feel at all threatened by what Google is doing with access to your entire mail stream? They've publicly stated users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy".
I don't use gmail and g00gle just reading my plaintext email is one of the reasons. They might sell it to their comrades. And to have gmail account, they want working mobile phone, which is totally unacceptable for me.
Or do you consider the internet so pwned that it doesnt matter?
If you ask me, the internet pwned beyond compare. Backdoors almost anywhere. Bugs everywhere. Steady supply of fresh bugs. (JYA might comment about the state of security too).
participants (13)
-
Cecilia Tanaka -
Georgi Guninski -
greenblue -
Jason McVetta -
John Newman -
Mr Nobody -
Oda -
Rayzer -
Shawn K. Quinn -
Steve Furlong -
Steve Kinney -
Xer0Dynamite -
Zenaan Harkness