participation in sensor networks

dan＠geer.org

3 Mar 2016 3 Mar '16

1:34 p.m.

Most everyone I know is participating in sensor networks beginning with carrying smartphones. Let us assume, for the moment, this is with their eyes wide open as to the possible extent of such networks' implications. Here's another one, http://www.nauto.com, which I mention as the recording of license plates and everything else in the surround, not just the driver's performance envelope, now comes to consumer gear which, undoubtedly, insurance rates will soon reflect and, in the fullness of time, subpoenas will seek. There are a bejillion other technologies of like import coming and coming soon. Those (of us) who opt-out will face price discrimination and, quite likely, participation discrimination on an accelerating pace; look to Sweden's stance on cash money for an example (banks no longer accept cash deposits, as I understand it). The question here is perhaps obvious: Will you opt out and suffer the consequences thereof? --dan

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J.M. Porup

3 Mar 3 Mar

2:40 p.m.

On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 08:34:14AM -0500, dan@geer.org wrote:

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The question here is perhaps obvious: Will you opt out and suffer the consequences thereof?

yippee kay yay, motherfucker. jmp

juan

6:20 p.m.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 08:34:14 -0500 dan@geer.org wrote:

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look to Sweden's stance on cash money for an example (banks no longer accept cash deposits, as I understand it).

that's because of a law that your governmnt and employeer pulled out of their 'legal' ass. and you know what that means? It means that the real problem is government - and you know what government is? - It's a collection of government employees - criminal tax parasites like yourself.

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The question here is perhaps obvious: Will you opt out and suffer the consequences thereof?

--dan

jim bell

8:50 p.m.

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From: "dan@geer.org" >Here's another one, http://www.nauto.com, which I mention as the recording of license plates and everything else in the surround, Nearly 20 years ago, I first heard of "3M Louvered film", thin plastic sheets with opaque black plastic molded perpendicularly to the plane of the sheet. It would be very useful to help block the viewing of license plates from the side of the road, or above on poles or overpasses. Google-search '3M louvered film". http://www.apioptics.com/pdf/3M-Display-Film-Summary.pdf http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3919559.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0466460A2.html Two sheets installed perpendicularly to each other would render a license plate readable only from a limited viewing cone behind, or in front of, the car. Jim Bell

saekung

9:08 p.m.

On 03/03/2016 21:50, jim bell wrote:

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From: "dan@geer.org" >Here's another one, http://www.nauto.com, which I mention as the recording of license plates and everything else in the surround, Nearly 20 years ago, I first heard of "3M Louvered film", thin plastic sheets with opaque black plastic molded perpendicularly to the plane of the sheet. It would be very useful to help block the viewing of license plates from the side of the road, or above on poles or overpasses. Google-search '3M louvered film". http://www.apioptics.com/pdf/3M-Display-Film-Summary.pdf http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3919559.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0466460A2.html Two sheets installed perpendicularly to each other would render a license plate readable only from a limited viewing cone behind, or in front of, the car. Jim Bell

I would think that is illegal in most countries.

jim bell

10:27 p.m.

From: saekung On 03/03/2016 21:50, jim bell wrote:> >From: "dan@geer.org" >Here's another one, http://www.nauto.com, which I mention as the

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recording of license plates and everything else in the surround, Nearly 20 years ago, I first heard of "3M Louvered film", thin plastic sheets with opaque black plastic molded perpendicularly to the plane of the sheet. It would be very useful to help block the viewing of license plates from the side of the road, or above on poles or overpasses. Google-search '3M louvered film". http://www.apioptics.com/pdf/3M-Display-Film-Summary.pdf http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3919559.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0466460A2.html Two sheets installed perpendicularly to each other would render a license plate readable only from a limited viewing cone behind, or in front of, the car. Jim Bell I would think that is illegal in most countries. A policeman might, and presumably has, argued that. But go to your typical car-parts store (in America), and you will see plenty of license-plate covers which shield the plate from dirt and dust. That doesn't mean that it is definitely 'legal', merely that most of the time, cops tend to look the other way if they can easily see the plate itself. One actually claims that it prevents photographing the plate: http://www.ontrackcorp.com/original-protector.cfm?id=03 25 years ago, I did some research into making a car 'infrared stealthy'. The technology of (cheap) laser radar was just coming into play. I learned that such laser speedgun units used 905 nanometers IR, pulsed at about 25 nanoseconds. I concluded that covering a car's corner-cube plastic retroreflectors with an IR-absorptive glass (PPG's Azurlite absorbed all but 6% of 905 nm IR). Azurlite could also be used to cover a license plate, although it had a distinctive bluish color. Etching the inside surface of the glass with ammonium bifluoride etchant (art stores) greatly decreased the retroreflectance from the plate itself.I found an LED, Stanley DN305, (since discontinued)which had a rise/fall time of about 10 nanoseconds. It would have made an excellent jammer. Presumably, better ones exist today. Jim Bell

grarpamp

4 Mar 4 Mar

5:11 a.m.

On 3/3/16, jim bell wrote:

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It would have made an excellent jammer. Presumably, better ones exist today.

Plates and lights leaves left only how much beams back from micro scratches in windshields? And of course that even consumer flat black spray paint seems to still return some fraction of a real laser beam. Some locales do have laws regarding plate visibility and or modification [via overlays / surrounds]. And some makers do advertise those 3M-like structures in their plate cover products, some even specifying visibility width angles in degrees. But the headlight / retroreflector thing is uncaptured market at the moment. So like with the plate guys, you should go for it if you can solve the problem of production for and application to all the 3d shapes of those lights / retros on vehicle models.

jim bell

5:44 p.m.

From: grarpamp On 3/3/16, jim bell wrote:>> It would have made an excellent jammer. Presumably, better ones exist today.

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Plates and lights leaves left only how much beams back from micro scratches in windshields? Probably very little. The emitted laser power of the unit I had the documentation foremitted 15 watts. Most of that would have hit the car, but only a tiny fraction wouldhave been reflected back to the laser gun. Google search "Lambertian". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambertian_reflectance (The reflectance of a piece ofwhite paper is primarily 'lambertian': It doesn't act like a mirror;nor does it act like a retroreflector.

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And of course that even consumer flat black spray paint seems to still return some fraction of a real laser beam. I didn't and don't expect that anybody was going to re-paint their car for thispurpose. Disabling the retro-reflectors is relatively easy.

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Some locales do have laws regarding plate visibility and or modification [via overlays / surrounds]. And some makers do advertise those 3M-like structures in their plate cover products, some even specifying visibility width angles in degrees. I understood that some of these modifications might arguably be called in violation of the law. The main one, covering the license plate, seemsto be a minor issue.

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But the headlight / retroreflector thing is uncaptured market at the moment. So like with the plate guys, you should go for it if you can solve the problem of production for and application to all the 3d shapes of those lights / retros on vehicle models. I don't know how big the laser radar market currently is. When I did the research in 1990-91, it was not clear how big an issue it would eventuallybe.

grarpamp

4:55 a.m.

On 3/3/16, dan@geer.org wrote:

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The question here is perhaps obvious: Will you opt out and suffer the consequences thereof?

Will you, as principal member[s] of such companies and organizations, recognize that certain things in humanity are distinctly human and necessary to humanity, therefore are of greater purpose than control and profit... and worthy preserving even in the face of risk... and therefore decline to develop, produce, market, and force such supposed solutions, even laws and structures, upon humanity... for what may even boil down to being your own self interest[s]? bitcoin:1CURA2mBjCghNaRujAjTN7Xy34Qai2NS5C Because... philosophy... and hungry.

Georgi Guninski

12:06 p.m.

On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 08:34:14AM -0500, dan@geer.org wrote:

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The question here is perhaps obvious: Will you opt out and suffer the consequences thereof?

--dan

Let me counter-ask only `dan': Will you exchange a walk on part in a war for a lead role in a cage? This is not exactly quote from Floyd's song.

Steve Kinney

5 Mar 5 Mar

6:08 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/04/2016 07:06 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

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On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 08:34:14AM -0500, dan@geer.org wrote:

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The question here is perhaps obvious: Will you opt out and suffer the consequences thereof?

--dan

Let me counter-ask only `dan':

Will you exchange a walk on part in a war for a lead role in a cage?

This is not exactly quote from Floyd's song.

I for one welcome universal surveillance, an unavoidable consequence of universal data network access. Corporate and intelligence service surveillance databases will always be valuable enough to keep, and will eventually become the communal property of the human species and its descendants. Osiris Ani is not half so immortal as you and I; what we do goes in mankind's permanent record. All the world is now a stage, so get your act together and make it count. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo6UnKr6Bwg :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJW2yCwAAoJEDZ0Gg87KR0L4GcP/3UZoLt3omhbVQ+4MppUfFJC dun731+03yVKJkwVTRGhdrKD0li7d6rt3cSt+pfkEjcbq3dP4KHs4rRVz+uO4mWS 0c9eAhdqrkglqCkMZLtpEVRm1f24I+rYV3qFpcbc2rvqic1dvgCF6V0NEAptXgZk 6BPT6Xc26tZ9p1s+fMT0+rbRzTvm9K9F2IGydbmXrzem3xj9ptyUHG6kn6cY1/x9 IDem7/aGaSyoN97idIAepMBI5plkvQ9TYQgsmhp/f0EFLS2dYmA7jAB+BxnU5/vs MyD7KY76IPwfk9deX9Fil9p8aafpCq4gENUSn62Ld6YVzKvf+OsO/RatcqySNqeC ZVKqorEQYAiqRO6pecbxnoicfHJ++NdCkLJLAViu+aY1VgkEvjx4r86XkvD4TYZH IdKtOao2OWWIFYGfVYt2PqYWpHlWEHE4LvJQNHxKwXpqWPp/S1u2nWAjEbTdrXoj ni3jkiLD1/yVVIpF6pe7uUxyL3j8U5waqo2m5ddQMLwBjIXu1+U5CGYeq3IqXR6b CiIp85ODLZpbP14qYZea3oa2GvgwHhaeko0sa8VF0g/pQ0Ojhe9rMuI5T5kTblOG oljbCIdsF/an5WbyaMZa0EkJMIXGgun7sXSeM9j+GMsxibdc9I6XQ4CI2SvqNAmP LnJ8s9ErOmI9RpK8RTVP =T01l -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

juan

6:19 p.m.

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 13:08:56 -0500 Steve Kinney wrote:

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I for one welcome universal surveillance,

Crazy. Perhaps you didn't notice that what you welcome is even more absolute state power?

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an unavoidable consequence of universal data network access. Corporate and intelligence service surveillance databases will always be valuable enough to keep, and will eventually become the communal property of the human species and its descendants.

Osiris Ani is not half so immortal as you and I; what we do goes in mankind's permanent record. All the world is now a stage, so get your act together and make it count.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo6UnKr6Bwg

:o)

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Steve Kinney

8:41 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/05/2016 01:19 PM, juan wrote:

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On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 13:08:56 -0500 Steve Kinney wrote:

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I for one welcome universal surveillance,

Crazy. Perhaps you didn't notice that what you welcome is even more absolute state power?

Crazy? More like far out. Universal surveillance enables abuses of State power only when access to collected data is restricted to State sanctioned actors. When everything becomes searchable by anybody, the inability of State sanctioned actors to conceal their activities or effectively lie about their history and motives will inhibit their potential for destructive action. "Power over others" depends in large part on secrecy, while "powers of self determination" depend largely on free and open access to information. In the long run, the secrecy problem will take care of itself, because the abuses of power it enables have already killed the State: At least, in the sense that a trans-national State hard wired for self destruction, defending that program by any means necessary, is "already dead." :o)

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an unavoidable consequence of universal data network access. Corporate and intelligence service surveillance databases will always be valuable enough to keep, and will eventually become the communal property of the human species and its descendants.

Osiris Ani is not half so immortal as you and I; what we do goes in mankind's permanent record. All the world is now a stage, so get your act together and make it count.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo6UnKr6Bwg

:o)

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juan

9:01 p.m.

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 15:41:04 -0500 Steve Kinney wrote:

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Universal surveillance enables abuses of State power only when access to collected data is restricted to State sanctioned actors.

Yeah well. The obvious assumption(fact) is that surveillance is carried by the state and its proxies and only they have access to the data. Which is exactly what's happening now. Oh, and not only they have access to the data, they also have access to the guns. So the more data they have, the more damage they can cause.

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When everything becomes searchable by anybody, the inability of State sanctioned actors to conceal their activities or effectively lie about their history and motives will inhibit their potential for destructive action.

Sorry, I'm not buying that. First, the idea that joe-six-pack is going to have access to the pentagon's satellites is sheer nonsense. And even if he somehow did he wouldn't have access to the the guns. So what good would the information be?

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"Power over others" depends in large part on secrecy,

Power over others depends on guns.

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while "powers of self determination" depend largely on free and open access to information.

Information is required but information alone will get you nowhere. Or more likely it would get you in jail.

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In the long run, the secrecy problem will take care of itself, because the abuses of power it enables have already killed the State: At least, in the sense that a trans-national State hard wired for self destruction, defending that program by any means necessary, is "already dead."

Well, the only thing missing to prove that claim is...evidence.

...

:o)

Steve Kinney

6 Mar 6 Mar

1:08 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/05/2016 04:01 PM, juan wrote:

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On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 15:41:04 -0500 Steve Kinney wrote:

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Universal surveillance enables abuses of State power only when access to collected data is restricted to State sanctioned actors.

Yeah well. The obvious assumption(fact) is that surveillance is carried by the state and its proxies and only they have access to the data. Which is exactly what's happening now.

Oh, and not only they have access to the data, they also have access to the guns. So the more data they have, the more damage they can cause.

"The guns" tend to backfire: Common or garden variety capital murders by police officers in the U.S. has re-ignited the Civil Rights movement, for example. Putting that big black genii back in the bottle is a job for covert political warfare via propaganda, deception and PsyOps. The outcome of every revolution I have studied was determined before the first shot was fired. The real damage enabled by mass surveillance in State and Corporate hands includes: Fine tuning and targeting of propaganda in near realtime to achieve maximum influence. Early detection and proactive response to disrupt and co-opt "trending" populist and radical factions. Automated social network mapping and behavior analysis in support of political warfare.

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When everything becomes searchable by anybody, the inability of State sanctioned actors to conceal their activities or effectively lie about their history and motives will inhibit their potential for destructive action.

Sorry, I'm not buying that. First, the idea that joe-six-pack is going to have access to the pentagon's satellites is sheer nonsense. And even if he somehow did he wouldn't have access to the the guns. So what good would the information be?

Not so much Joe Six Pack as Jane Citizen Journalist. Up to a point of diminishing returns, every time "the guns" are used against her, a dozen more of her appear. As the point of diminishing returns for that function approaches, civil uprisings in response to State violence become likely.

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"Power over others" depends in large part on secrecy,

Power over others depends on guns.

The most important single item of State propaganda against populist and radical politics: Power over others depends on guns. Any challenge to State power that depends primarily on armed conflict has a single, certain outcome: Victory for the State. Again, the outcome of a revolution is determined before the first shot is fired. Building a large base of popular support and a network of ideologically committed cadres is the key to success, and the principal objective of State political warfare is to prevent this from happening. Naive wannabe anarchists who want to "go directly to guns, do not pass the hat, do not collect 200 supporters" only provide the State with a handy means of discrediting its more /effective/ opponents.

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while "powers of self determination" depend largely on free and open access to information. Information is required but information alone will get you nowhere. Or more likely it would get you in jail.

...
In the long run, the secrecy problem will take care of itself, because the abuses of power it enables have already killed the State: At least, in the sense that a trans-national State hard wired for self destruction, defending that program by any means necessary, is "already dead."

Well, the only thing missing to prove that claim is...evidence.

Evidence means nothing without context; information that is not actionable is not intelligence. Step one, know your adversary. Who and what IS the State, and why is it so toxic? Some clues from the Harvard National Security Journal here: National Security and Double Government by Michael J. Glennon http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJW3Cu2AAoJEDZ0Gg87KR0LmSAQAK4nS9NJ3k87dH8ODw3eH0O+ oNxhX6us0RKkq04jo8bn4mi/DzdzPmWYfxsyhJlgx2Gzp8+0/wWL35Qu7Tcj87la gfTMwUYIw6an+y1xztn4DhTYRliRybLj6egs9JWLNLm7y3Rp80Z5GmtPhpeiCjwQ XGq+qZzepKak9LDGSVogrPDlfKMlH8hvJpccf5TWKoNU+R+RaHLOlS0cmz5grNwd JfNv3opRZisueeqme93MlWBS2c4Y9fAT4/U+lZoLt/Ye8R+wTI4RbPxcHVtfFruh I9jUrqoZNZ9BQTv6NZDuWU4laMFFXKmXF+nVW+JXx3Y40DXm8qb65bw2lvyLQ3QF wD6Ht+TFCWuSYPAO9qsC8LN4APtRKUP7/pkmHSRMtroGLjgUx6xo5/gYSVl6XDwE fQG2578tNUsSNRt0skXJysXz/NShc07MAQGR7/+uejvcUPry1CcSsbbpYfSIk7UI Xmk6MVLlx6RPUxH1rJNO7PVEf515ro+67xHx2d/Bv/ABFT9cNXZ/c962nglp+T5D 6ILcvaJRqVhvgUcAy8psVbawmYWN55DMceM9KOM5eAIEWvW3XHFaj7+uwKBycZT8 SxImCUW/MSPhugvTbx/SliIKS7hnUG0BpcjwvsRD+5JHF+Tc7JNSH978qXRJzt+0 z42HWVWYmP/rv4feXy5u =MmU2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Steve Kinney

2:25 p.m.

New subject: Postscript re popular vs. State power

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Well, the only thing missing to prove that claim is...evidence.

Evidence means nothing without context; information that is not actionable is not intelligence. Step one, know your adversary. Who and what IS the State, and why is it so toxic? Some clues from the Harvard National Security Journal here:

National Security and Double Government by Michael J. Glennon

http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf

Postscript:

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The State maintains people on payroll whose job is to study popular uprisings and revolutions, the better to direct those whose job is to put them down by force. Manuals written for the State's own cadres incidentally provide instruction for those who are interested in starting an 'insurgency' of their own: https://publicintelligence.net/usarmy-revolution-insurgency-studies/ Notes: Volumes 2 and 3 are of the most interest. Volume 3 incorporates both historical fact and Big Lie propaganda into its narrative, as required for its contemporary U.S. military audience. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJW3D3DAAoJEDZ0Gg87KR0LhOIQANgNiF6LnaKDPDPYvynqOLvs b/uAOJBEjlCnWzBRqRBL4Sj7tscoW7hdsnXv8ID4TMaxmwoRlywS9Et31C4iz5Ny KY30QBvtkuHIHeiYcvv01TfiiwkUWJ7tABuNeNxMJjW447Z4Iacv5xZAGCoPt3ne 3YsRpj/Tpk9j+1Yb+i/yD8tFpM0stKcjMFA4m01t7VoePWzZWJ3GDjwV4O5AKxxt uuja6+PtKLAox3e0qJ+rcNC2Q59HbXZpCEbjX1GEQmnLNLrdRzHrCfVi6sDkuA95 a8/tESLBaMkM7A85qpf1FGzSj3gLjRFMDghBMsd8vx3RMQcsnE1skLAfPTy7OWGj 01qHOz4WR5NHTvhMXlC3/p5q4lgaCswdcQOkRlTLaiJxV9DwSr001vrAD86An13j LQ3K3YQSfCKiDqen/++9g3G80MuLmj3NkwsqDPM+UIFKLZh5kCIwwWfm5K2ETWww t8uuH/vhvwi6UEXS7He+T9Pk3cSrKV/YtwbEOlhinkDeHn5hEKcLH/8/VxtJljG+ YToY0nxJLZrJ2jdjwyPqGvBtsdR8R1Il6o602ywPs9ikbLORn72RI3ukOH70KMOu cuOplCNgNrQBeF/U9NJR4B2Tue24dYoj284UNxtZx04KVkEXJfK3o/ieHRCrqrlF uPM5Z6bZ99DKs1dxUQEB =IZ0G -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

juan

9:53 p.m.

New subject: Postscript re popular vs. State power

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:25:09 -0500 Steve Kinney wrote:

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National Security and Double Government by Michael J. Glennon

http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf

abstract : "U.S. national security policy is defined by the network of executive officials who manage the departments and agencies responsible for protecting U.S. national security and who, responding to structural incentives embedded in the U.S. political system, operate largely removed from public view and from constitutional constraints. " I think I already knew that. The three branches of american government? Hollywood, corporate, the military. I'm reading the article anyway, although it's far too long. Did you read it? Am I supposed to look for something in particular?

juan

10:24 p.m.

New subject: Postscript re popular vs. State power

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:25:09 -0500 Steve Kinney wrote:

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National Security and Double Government by Michael J. Glennon

http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf

OK. Finished browsing those more than 100 pages of 'academic' garbage. What's the bottom line according to you? The author is lying about the relationship between bureaucracies like the nsa/cia/fbi etc and bureaucracies like the US 'congress'. Both bureaucracies fully cooperate and are sides of the same coin. The author is of course pretty dishonest about the whole thing. At times it seems at if he's critical of the state while at the same time constantly praises the 'national security' bureaucracy. "The benefits derived by the United States from double government —enhanced technical expertise, institutional memory and experience, quick-footedness, opaqueness in confronting adversaries, policy stability, and insulation from popular political oscillation and decisional idiosyncrasy —need hardly be recounted." Aren't his nsa buddies great. All in all a long piece of statist propaganda from harvard university using the very traditional americunt propaganda technique of posing as 'liberal 'libertarian' 'critics' of the system.

juan

8:02 p.m.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 08:08:10 -0500 Steve Kinney wrote: me :

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Oh, and not only they have access to the data, they also have access to the guns. So the more data they have, the more damage they can cause.

you :

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"The guns" tend to backfire: Common or garden variety capital murders by police officers in the U.S. has re-ignited the Civil Rights movement,

I don't think so. There may have been some backlash caused by 'excessive' police brutality, but overall the state's grip keeps tightening. And surveillance is a key factor. Also, if they kill a bit too many people and that hurts their 'public relations' efforts, all they have to do is kill a bit less people. But it's not like the US state killers are going to surrender their guns any time soon.

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The outcome of every revolution I have studied was determined before the first shot was fired. The real damage enabled by mass surveillance in State and Corporate hands includes:

Fine tuning and targeting of propaganda in near realtime to achieve maximum influence.

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Early detection and proactive response to disrupt and co-opt "trending" populist and radical factions.

Automated social network mapping and behavior analysis in support of political warfare.

Yes, that's part of the damage. Given those problems (and there are more), how can you 'welcome' total surveillance?

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Sorry, I'm not buying that. First, the idea that joe-six-pack is going to have access to the pentagon's satellites is sheer nonsense. And even if he somehow did he wouldn't have access to the the guns. So what good would the information be?

Not so much Joe Six Pack as Jane Citizen Journalist. Up to a point of diminishing returns, every time "the guns" are used against her, a dozen more of her appear.

One would think that exactly the opposite happens. It's basic incentives... If doing X gets people jailed, maimed or killed, then people are less likely to do X, not more likely.

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As the point of diminishing returns for that function approaches, civil uprisings in response to State violence become likely.

That's nice wishful thinking but it doesn't address the original point : why should be mass surveillance be welcomed?

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"Power over others" depends in large part on secrecy,

Power over others depends on guns.

The most important single item of State propaganda against populist and radical politics: Power over others depends on guns.

That's a basic fact. It is THE basic fact of 'political theory'. I could in turn retort that trying to obscure that fact is propaganda... Anyway, I should have been more precise. State power comes from guns and organization. People who go against the state are ultimately facing an efficient organization of killers. Victims of the state are outgunned and outnumbered. It should be obvious that total surveillance on the hands of such organization is very problematic.

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Any challenge to State power that depends primarily on armed conflict has a single, certain outcome: Victory for the State.

That depends on particular circumstances. I wasn't primarily advocating armed conflict anyway...

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Again, the outcome of a revolution is determined before the first shot is fired. Building a large base of popular support and a network of ideologically committed cadres is the key to success,

I agree.

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and the principal objective of State political warfare is to prevent this from happening.

Well, yes. And intimidation and outright violence are pretty useful tools. It's not just 'propaganda' (although propaganda does play an important role)

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Naive wannabe anarchists who want to "go directly to guns, do not pass the hat, do not collect 200 supporters" only provide the State with a handy means of discrediting its more /effective/ opponents.

Like I said I should have mentioned that organization is the other source of state power, even more effective than guns if you wish. So, in order to counter the state organization some sort of coordination is required...

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while "powers of self determination" depend largely on free and open access to information. Information is required but information alone will get you nowhere. Or more likely it would get you in jail.

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In the long run, the secrecy problem will take care of itself, because the abuses of power it enables have already killed the State: At least, in the sense that a trans-national State hard wired for self destruction, defending that program by any means necessary, is "already dead."

Well, the only thing missing to prove that claim is...evidence.

Evidence means nothing without context;

Come on Steve =) You seem to believe that the state is done for because of its 'internal contradictions' or something like that but the evidence shows exactly the opposite. State power keeps growing. And the surveillance mechanisms you said you 'welcome' play an important role in extending state power, not limiting it.

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information that is not actionable is not intelligence. Step one, know your adversary. Who and what IS the State, and why is it so toxic? Some clues from the Harvard National Security Journal here:

I don't think I need the harvard security' journal to teach what the state is, but I'll take a look anyway. Thanks. Meanwhile you can provide evidence supporting this claims "the abuses of power [surveillance?] enables have already killed the State" The state is alive and kicking. "a trans-national State hard wired for self destruction, defending that program by any means necessary, is "already dead." Fact is, the most powerful nation states, 'led' by the american nation state can morph into a transnational state. Allegedly they already are morphing. And they are not 'self destructing' at all. They are increasing their power. Sorry about not sharing your optimism, but the facts don't lend themselves to any optimistic twisting.

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National Security and Double Government by Michael J. Glennon

http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf

:o)

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