Cypherpunk Politics [was: REAL-ID Coming]
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:19 AM, rysiek <rysiek@hackerspace.pl> wrote:
Crypto isn't going to stop the metamining surveillance. And as in the subject, standing in line to happily get and show their papers please isn't going to stop that either.
Agreed.
Where are that mass of geeks, cryptos, internets... those making such technical measures... where are they acting in politics? Running for office, bringing issues to their councils, donating, and so on.
There might, or might not, be hackers among us who are trying to hack on policy level. But those hackers, if they indeed are following (or maybe even taking part in) the discussions here, might not want to come out with such information, as the level of hostility towards any persons or organisations that can be painted as "working with The Man" or "taking the Man's money" is too damn high™.
Who cares, that's up to the cpunk. If the cypherpunk is pure, working with the man to get cpunk shit done is just another hacking skin to hang on their wall. And a highly prized one of social engineering at that. Cpunks should bow the fuck down in respect to such a fellow cpunk, not fling hostile FUD at them just because they're working the system. For that matter, they should join them to add another voice. There are probably more US persons on this list than there are in their entire Congress. Think about that... Now in the other direction of possible hostility... should The Man discover a cpunk within their ranks, well yes, there is a risk there. The usual opsec applies.
In other words, FUD spread by "the Man" and the disinformation campaign, sowing dissent, creating hostility and distrust within the community, and in general the divide and conquer approach work wonders.
That's why the above masses need to activate and throw the FUD back, and more, at The Man. Two can play that game. Problem is, right now there is only one real player on the field of politics, his name is The Man, and he's not on team cpunk.
Dnia wtorek, 3 marca 2015 17:41:14 grarpamp pisze:
There might, or might not, be hackers among us who are trying to hack on policy level. But those hackers, if they indeed are following (or maybe even taking part in) the discussions here, might not want to come out with such information, as the level of hostility towards any persons or organisations that can be painted as "working with The Man" or "taking the Man's money" is too damn high™.
Who cares, that's up to the cpunk. If the cypherpunk is pure, working with the man to get cpunk shit done is just another hacking skin to hang on their wall. And a highly prized one of social engineering at that. Cpunks should bow the fuck down in respect to such a fellow cpunk, not fling hostile FUD at them just because they're working the system. For that matter, they should join them to add another voice. There are probably more US persons on this list than there are in their entire Congress. Think about that...
+1. And for those that don't believe shit can be hacked on policy level, look at ACTA, or at censorship debates in Poland. For instance: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/07/27/1325235/the-shortest-internet-censors...
Now in the other direction of possible hostility... should The Man discover a cpunk within their ranks, well yes, there is a risk there. The usual opsec applies.
The opsec, as you say, is "usual". As in, cpunks more or less know how to handle it. The FUD and divide-and-conquer is a whole different ball game, and that's a huge problem.
In other words, FUD spread by "the Man" and the disinformation campaign, sowing dissent, creating hostility and distrust within the community, and in general the divide and conquer approach work wonders.
That's why the above masses need to activate and throw the FUD back, and more, at The Man. Two can play that game. Problem is, right now there is only one real player on the field of politics, his name is The Man, and he's not on team cpunk.
Absolutely. And to start doing that, we *REALLY* need to see that "The Man" is not really a single entity, but a dynamic system of co-dependant people, institutions, interests, etc. Once we stop seeing "Teh Gummint" as a single entity that Has A Plan, cracks start to show. And we all know what we can do with cracks, don't we? As long as we allow ourselves to drink the Kool-Aid of how mighty and monolithic "The Man" is, we're fucked. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 01:39:27AM +0100, rysiek wrote:
Dnia wtorek, 3 marca 2015 17:41:14 grarpamp pisze:
There might, or might not, be hackers among us who are trying to hack on policy level. But those hackers, if they indeed are following (or maybe even taking part in) the discussions here, might not want to come out with such information, as the level of hostility towards any persons or organisations that can be painted as "working with The Man" or "taking the Man's money" is too damn high™.
Who cares, that's up to the cpunk. If the cypherpunk is pure, working with the man to get cpunk shit done is just another hacking skin to hang on their wall. And a highly prized one of social engineering at that. Cpunks should bow the fuck down in respect to such a fellow cpunk, not fling hostile FUD at them just because they're working the system. For that matter, they should join them to add another voice. There are probably more US persons on this list than there are in their entire Congress. Think about that...
+1. And for those that don't believe shit can be hacked on policy level, look at ACTA, or at censorship debates in Poland. For instance: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/07/27/1325235/the-shortest-internet-censors...
My theory is the whole Tom Cotton letter to Iran was a legislative trojan, and there was a coordinated psy-ops campaign to get 47 senators to sign it. So who would be financially motivated to hack the republican party, and have the covert intelligence and psy-ops/social engineering capability to pull it off? For all we know this was done by some pissed off NSA/CIA cpunk employees who know how to work the system and aren't quite ready to pull a snowden yet. Oh, and the *discovery* of NSA/CIA involvement in hacking the party would just be a bonus easter-egg for a lot of libertarian-minded cpunk patriots.
Now in the other direction of possible hostility... should The Man discover a cpunk within their ranks, well yes, there is a risk there. The usual opsec applies.
The opsec, as you say, is "usual". As in, cpunks more or less know how to handle it. The FUD and divide-and-conquer is a whole different ball game, and that's a huge problem.
In other words, FUD spread by "the Man" and the disinformation campaign, sowing dissent, creating hostility and distrust within the community, and in general the divide and conquer approach work wonders.
That's why the above masses need to activate and throw the FUD back, and more, at The Man. Two can play that game. Problem is, right now there is only one real player on the field of politics, his name is The Man, and he's not on team cpunk.
Absolutely. And to start doing that, we *REALLY* need to see that "The Man" is not really a single entity, but a dynamic system of co-dependant people, institutions, interests, etc. Once we stop seeing "Teh Gummint" as a single entity that Has A Plan, cracks start to show. And we all know what we can do with cracks, don't we?
As long as we allow ourselves to drink the Kool-Aid of how mighty and monolithic "The Man" is, we're fucked.
The man has a million cracks & crevices, dark, warm, inviting places for the roots of a million seeds to grow. What are you planting this spring? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' hozer@hozed.org 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul grid.coop Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 09:13:46 -0700, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrote:
My theory is the whole Tom Cotton letter to Iran was a legislative trojan, and there was a coordinated psy-ops campaign to get 47 senators to sign it.
That may very well be. I came across an opening article the other day about how this whole "Obama-Netanyahu ''Fallout'' is Theater - Planned in 2009" [1]. Some of the quotes from The Brookings Institution's 2009 policy paper titled, "Which Path to Persia? Options for a New American Strategy Toward Iran," are eye popping. "..any military operation against Iran will likely be very unpopular around the world and require the proper international context— both to ensure the logistical support the operation would require and to minimize the blowback from it. The best way to minimize international opprobrium and maximize support (however, grudging or covert) is to strike only when there is a widespread conviction that the Iranians were given but then rejected a superb offer—one so good that only a regime determined to acquire nuclear weapons and acquire them for the wrong reasons would turn it down. Under those circumstances, the United States (or Israel) could portray its operations as taken in sorrow, not anger, and at least some in the international community would conclude that the Iranians “brought it on themselves” by refusing a very good deal." They've laid out the entire maniac war plans in plain sight for anyone curious enough to read. Problem is 'muhricans don't read, and the elite know this. [1] http://www.activistpost.com/2015/03/obama-netanyahu-fallout-is-theater.html
As a side note to this debate, I've negotiated bunches of settlements between local (and, once, state) governments and citizen claimants. In not one case can I say that the agreements were worth the paper they were ultimately printed on as there is no way to hold a government to its agreements when you really get down to it beyond the ballot box. If an agreement calls for some sort of enforcement, then you can be sure that in the fullness of time enforcement will wane. If an agreement calls for appointment of an oversight board, then you can be sure that in the fullness of time the appointment process will yield not fire-in-the-belly citizen activists but apparatchiks. If an agreement calls for an evaluation five years hence as to whether the course of action was or was not producing the results that it was promised to produce, then you can be sure that in the fullness of time such review will be pro forma, vapid, innocuous, and self-congratulatory, if it is done at all. A government's word cannot be trusted when details matter, yet another manifestation of how eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, or, to repurpose the title of Larry O'Brien's memoirs, there are no final victories. Please don't let this start an exploration of any rat-hole, just allow me to speak from four decades of experience, please. --dan
On Sun, Mar 15, 2015, at 01:32 PM, dan@geer.org wrote:
As a side note to this debate, I've negotiated bunches of settlements between local (and, once, state) governments and citizen claimants. In not one case can I say that the agreements were worth the paper they were ultimately printed on as there is no way to hold a government to its agreements when you really get down to it beyond the ballot box. If an agreement calls for some sort of enforcement, then you can be sure that in the fullness of time enforcement will wane. If an agreement calls for appointment of an oversight board, then you can be sure that in the fullness of time the appointment process will yield not fire-in-the-belly citizen activists but apparatchiks. If an agreement calls for an evaluation five years hence as to whether the course of action was or was not producing the results that it was promised to produce, then you can be sure that in the fullness of time such review will be pro forma, vapid, innocuous, and self-congratulatory, if it is done at all. A government's word cannot be trusted when details matter, yet another manifestation of how eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, or, to repurpose the title of Larry O'Brien's memoirs, there are no final victories.
Please don't let this start an exploration of any rat-hole, just allow me to speak from four decades of experience, please.
--dan
+1. In this instance I wholeheartedly agree with you, Dan (also borne from experience, though nowhere near as much as you have.) These are wise words and should be heeded. -S
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:41:14 -0500 grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
Who cares, that's up to the cpunk. If the cypherpunk is pure, working with the man to get cpunk shit done is just another hacking skin to hang on their wall.
LMAO! I thought you were a bit cleverer than that. Seems I was wrong.
And a highly prized one of social engineering at that. Cpunks should bow the fuck down in respect to such a fellow
Nah, decent people should tell such a shitbag and his apologists to go fuck themselves.. Hey grarpamp - you don't get the A of the ABC of political philosophy. Or maybe you are in the payroll of the CIA. Or the DoD like the tor clowns. Or both! Oh, but it's OK. Let the self-seving employees of 'non governmental' mafias FUNDED BY THE GOVERNMENT explain why it's OK for them to be paid for PRETENDING to 'fight' their employeers and accomplices.
cpunk, not fling hostile FUD at them just because they're working the system. For that matter, they should join them to add another voice. There are probably more US persons on this list than there are in their entire Congress. Think about that...
Now in the other direction of possible hostility... should The Man discover a cpunk within their ranks, well yes, there is a risk there. The usual opsec applies.
In other words, FUD spread by "the Man" and the disinformation campaign, sowing dissent, creating hostility and distrust within the community, and in general the divide and conquer approach work wonders.
go. fuck. yourself.
That's why the above masses need to activate and throw the FUD back,
fuck you, asshole.
and more, at The Man. Two can play that game. Problem is, right now there is only one real player on the field of politics, his name is The Man, and he's not on team cpunk.
the man is in your team. yes, rephrase that.
I love how I only see wacky excerpts of Juan's out of context, these days. :) On 04/03/15 16:38, grarpamp wrote:
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
LMAO!
We're listening, show us the way...
Or maybe you are in the payroll of the CIA.
I hear they have interesting jobs, you should apply.
-- Scientific Director, IndieBio Irish Programme Got a biology-inspired business idea that $50,000 - & 3 months in a well equipped lab could accelerate? Apply for the Summer programme in Ireland: http://indie.bio/apply-to-ireland Twitter: @onetruecathal Phone: +353876363185 miniLock: JjmYYngs7akLZUjkvFkuYdsZ3PyPHSZRBKNm6qTYKZfAM peerio.com: cathalgarvey
Dnia środa, 4 marca 2015 17:14:40 Cathal Garvey pisze:
I love how I only see wacky excerpts of Juan's out of context, these days. :)
Oh, you're missing out! For some reason Juan's really active in this particular thread. :) -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
Dnia środa, 4 marca 2015 11:38:22 grarpamp pisze:
I hear they have interesting jobs, you should apply.
I don't think anybody can have two jobs with them at the same time, mate. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 18:26:57 +0100 rysiek <rysiek@hackerspace.pl> wrote:
Dnia środa, 4 marca 2015 11:38:22 grarpamp pisze:
I hear they have interesting jobs, you should apply.
I don't think anybody can have two jobs with them at the same time, mate.
What, you wanted to double your income? Is that how you found out. And notice the sheer stupidity. Since I laugh at people who ARE working for the americunt nazi government while pretending to be 'freedom fighters' I must be working for them as well? Credo quia absurdum.
On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 11:38:22 -0500 grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
LMAO!
We're listening, show us the way...
Listening, that seems to be exactly what you are not doing. But go ahead. Post videos from retards who think they own the government. Surely people who start with such a brilliant premise must have it all figured out.
Or maybe you are in the payroll of the CIA.
I hear they have interesting jobs, you should apply.
Sure. I can a few recomendation letters from the 'cypherpunk scene' eh?
Who cares, that's up to the cpunk. If the cypherpunk is pure, working with the man to get cpunk shit done is just another hacking skin to hang on their wall. And a highly prized one of social engineering at that. Cpunks should bow the fuck down in respect to such a fellow cpunk, not fling hostile FUD at them just because they're working the system.
+1. More than this, whatever your feelings on governments per se, not all governments are particularly bad when it comes to privacy, spying, etcetera. There is plenty wrong with the Irish kleptocracy, but as far as we currently know domestic mass surveillance isn't in play over here. There's also plenty of funding still available for civic stuff for which a "business plan" is either inappropriate or inconceivable, though applications are pretty competitive. If Tor were being funded by the Irish government, for example, there would be far less reason for concern. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 07:16:18AM +0000, Cathal (Phone) wrote:
+1. More than this, whatever your feelings on governments per se, not all governments are particularly bad when it comes to privacy, spying, etcetera.
There is plenty wrong with the Irish kleptocracy, but as far as we currently know domestic mass surveillance isn't in play over here.
wth are you talking about? ireland is the bridgehead of fucking facebooks tentacles. the irish data protection officer is a goddamn joke. the whole country has major parts of its gdp only because of their incredibly flexible spine that they use to adjust to the silicon valley doing their EU money and data laundering, besides the UK there's not much more complicit states than the irish when it comes to EU wide mass surveillance. -- otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt
wth are you talking about? ireland is the bridgehead of fucking facebooks tentacles.
The irish data protection officer is a goddamn joke.
Underfunded, understaffed, but also the only reason why Facebook's facial recognition database was rolled back in Europe. Well, we're told it was rolled back, which I don't believe for an instant. Point being, the DPC has done a fantastic job with the shoestring our government gives it. All of which is beside my point: I wasn't saying the Irish government's great and that Ireland's a safe-haven from spying; it's not. We have GCHQ sitting on all of our fibres, and we *do* host some of the world's biggest NSA assets: Facebook, Google, Amazon, etcetera. My point was that our *government* does not engage, as far as we know, in mass surveillance, and that receiving government funding in Ireland to study and deploy privacy projects would therefore be less worrisome than receiving the same funding from the UK or US, which presents the well-trodden paradox of being "funded by the adversary". On 04/03/15 10:35, stef wrote:
On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 07:16:18AM +0000, Cathal (Phone) wrote:
+1. More than this, whatever your feelings on governments per se, not all governments are particularly bad when it comes to privacy, spying, etcetera.
There is plenty wrong with the Irish kleptocracy, but as far as we currently know domestic mass surveillance isn't in play over here.
wth are you talking about? ireland is the bridgehead of fucking facebooks tentacles. the irish data protection officer is a goddamn joke. the whole country has major parts of its gdp only because of their incredibly flexible spine that they use to adjust to the silicon valley doing their EU money and data laundering, besides the UK there's not much more complicit states than the irish when it comes to EU wide mass surveillance.
-- Scientific Director, IndieBio Irish Programme Got a biology-inspired business idea that $50,000 - & 3 months in a well equipped lab could accelerate? Apply for the Summer programme in Ireland: http://indie.bio/apply-to-ireland Twitter: @onetruecathal Phone: +353876363185 miniLock: JjmYYngs7akLZUjkvFkuYdsZ3PyPHSZRBKNm6qTYKZfAM peerio.com: cathalgarvey
participants (10)
-
Cathal (Phone) -
Cathal Garvey
-
dan＠geer.org -
grarpamp -
Juan -
rysiek -
Seth -
shelley＠misanthropia.org -
stef -
Troy Benjegerdes