Why is free speech so important, foundational in fact? According to Peterson “it's the thing that keeps the temperamental types from being at each other's throats”. Documentary - A Glitch in the Matrix (David Fuller production) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQCTeGKHsVc (He did an earlier one too, just before the Cathy Newman interview, which has some good material also: Truth in the Time of Chaos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjqXXengN1s Notwithstanding Peterson's failings (he's a human, he certainly is not perfect, but who is?), his message (if it can be so reduced), evidenced by his popularity, is apparently (and I believe so) relevant to the zeitgeist of today, in a very "let's avoid a 20th Century style catastrophie" kind of way - do we really want to empower another Stalin or Pol Pot? Good luck fellow pepes, On Thu, Jul 05, 2018 at 12:09:18PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 04:27:32PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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“Free speech is not just another value. It's the foundation of Western civilization.”

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37875695 Toronto professor Jordan Peterson takes on gender-neutral pronouns By Jessica Murphy BBC News, Toronto, 4 November 2016

Peterson speaks so clearly that just about anyone with the capacity to listen ought be able to hear.

Free speech is one of the 4 or 5 fundamental, essential, foundational liberties, and one can find it difficult to put forth a compelling position to those presently entrenched in their hate speech.

Peterson does so readily, and clearly - in the following from about 52:00.

Enjoy,

Jordan Peterson _ Full Address and Q&A _ Oxford Union https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZMIbo_DxJk

On 11/08/2018 04:34, juan wrote:

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 19:26:54 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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Notwithstanding Peterson's failings (he's a human, he certainly is not perfect, but who is?), his message (if it can be so reduced), evidenced by his popularity, is apparently (and I believe so) relevant to the zeitgeist of today,

of course it is, peterson is a christian right-wing fascist so his fascist 'message' is no doubt at the 'foundation' of western 'civilization'

Jordan Peterson is not a Christian, and his message is far to the left of 2008 Obama, and farther to the left of each president. Each president has been far to the left of each previous president, and even Trum, though right of 2012 Obama, and far to the right of the last days of the Obama presidency, is far to the left of 2008 Obama

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On 11/08/2018 04:34, juan wrote:

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of course it is, peterson is a christian right-wing fascist so his fascist 'message' is no doubt at the 'foundation' of western 'civilization'

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Jordan Peterson is not a Christian,

peterson is a fuckign 'atheist' christian.

Nuts.

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and his message is far to the left of 2008 Obama, and farther to the left of each president.

On 11/08/2018 06:20, juan wrote:

you'll have to first define 'left' and then give some example of peterson being a lefty.

Leftism is knocking over the apple cart to grab some apples. I don't see Peterson calling out black, female, or gay misbehavior, misbehavior that would have been intolerable ten years ago, and unthinkable twenty years ago.

On 11/08/2018 13:55, juan wrote:

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 13:33:21 +0800 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

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On 11/08/2018 04:34, juan wrote:

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peterson is a christian right-wing fascist so his fascist 'message' is no doubt at the 'foundation' of western 'civilization'

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Jordan Peterson is not a Christian,

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peterson is a fuckign 'atheist' christian.

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Nuts.

yes he is nuts

To clarify: Someone who uses the phrase "atheist Christian" is nuts.

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On 11/08/2018 06:20, juan wrote:

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you'll have to first define 'left' and then give some example of peterson being a lefty.

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Leftism is knocking over the apple cart to grab some apples.

Oh OK. Given such accurate definition, I guess you have evidence of peterson knocking over many apple carts?

Men are being emasculated, which is one big apple cart, the destruction of the family is another, and Peterson's proposed solution is "clean up your room" He credits American Jews with an average IQ high enough to entirely explain their disproportionate influence, and completely failing to notice that whites are second class citizens to NAMs. He advocates hierarchy based on meritocracy, and conspicuously fails to notice major deviations from meritocracy. The solution to emasculation and the destruction of the family is not to clean up your room, but to project the masculinity of the vicious psychopathic criminal, combined with the assets and material lifestyle of the respectable male, staying out of jail while superficially seeming the kind of man that chicks would find in jail. Jordan offers fatherless boys the same old blue pill solutions to dealing with women, which result in them living in involuntary celibacy. Involuntary celibacy is one hell of a broken apple cart. Peterson piously mentions that commies murdered a hundred million or so, and are entirely unrepentant, but neglects to say that they hunger and thirst to do it all again, and that Democrats are on the same course, a course headed directly for the Red Terror of 1794, which eighteenth century horror prefigured the enormously larger mass murders of the twentieth century, and the extraordinary increase in war, state violence, and private criminal violence that we have seen starting with the French Revolution, which is a very big pile of broken apple carts.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 05:34:32PM -0300, Juan wrote:

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 19:26:54 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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Notwithstanding Peterson's failings (he's a human, he certainly is not perfect, but who is?), his message (if it can be so reduced), evidenced by his popularity, is apparently (and I believe so) relevant to the zeitgeist of today,

of course it is, peterson is a christian right-wing fascist so his fascist 'message' is no doubt at the 'foundation' of western 'civilization'

There are many, many parts to Peterson's conversation. You can say he's "making fascist Christianity great again", that he's Christian, that he's an atheist, that's he's a right wing fascist, an apologist for the Jews, and that he's a left wing socialist (he is after all a professor groomed on the public purse). And to some degree, all of these ad homs are correct - he IS human after all, and we humans are riddled with failings. Ipso failing humans. However, there is much more to this particular conversation than just the negatives. Peterson is re-enlivening meaning - be it Buddhist Daoism, "Western" (Christian) theology and even, truth be, existential "scientific" atheism. Now THAT's a firetrucking feat! Seriously, there's a gem in Peterson's talks for all, for example most recently: Iceland - 12 Rules for Life Tour - Lecture 1 ~2h:40m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM_QPCxCkws Perhaps listen to it not on double speed, and take a sheet of Vim (or Emacs for the immediate-mode bigots), divide it in two and create two columns - for the bullshit, and for the insights. And if your insights column comes up empty, it might be time for you to start giving your own lectures or writing up your own Bakunin or Solzhenitsyn. I for one will personally relish reading it if you put even half the time Peterson put into either of his books (15 years for the first, ~5 years for the second, reportedly rewriting each sentence and each paragraph many, many times until he felt he would only make each such unit worse be re-writing it yet again). For those on the "Ayn Rand is nothing but a propagandist" persuasion, this quote from Peterson's recent QnA (at the end of the above 'tube) is right up our alley: “[this is] what makes Dostoyevsky different to Ayn Rand for example: 'cause Ayn Rand already knew [prior to writing her book] who the good guys and the bad guys were, and may be she was right and may be she wasn't, doesn't matter — what matters is that what she did wasn't literature, it was just sophisticated propaganda. You know, it taps into "literature" upon occasion, but ...” Good luck,

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 07:03:09 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE - Dr.Jordan Peterson VS Skyler Turden! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfv_wlWMZnw

there you have peterson saying that NSA 'social media' should be treated as 'public utilities' AND at the same time denying that he wants the governemnt to control free speech. peterson is truly retarded. and the guy who plays the part of left wing fascist answers that NSA 'social media' should be left to the 'free market' (so he's a capitalist like peterson!) and the 'free market' (twitterNSA, jewtubeNSA etc) banned alex jones so all is good. In other words peterson is retarded and gets fully pwned. And that's the sort of anti libertarian self parody you get when right wing fascists and left wing fascists discuss 'philosophy'. 29:49 oh and censorship can go wrong...look at CHINA! As always, foreign subhumans fail to achieve the moral supremacy of western jew-kristians...

On 12/08/2018 08:36, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

Peterson said -multiple- times in that video that the corporations can do what they want, and that when they choose to censor they are making a really bad decision which one way or another they will pay for

But what Peterson conspicuously neglected to mention in that video is that if corporations resist Social Justice Warrior takeover, HR is likely to arrange for the company to be sued for hostile work environment, and the CEO personally sue for rape, sexual harassment, and mansplaining.

“Free speech is not just another value. It's the foundation of Western civilization.” - Dr Peterson

hey Zen why do ypu keep promoting such a scumbag as peterson? Don't you understand that he's a fraud? You should really work on your critical thinking skills instead of being a putin-dailystormer-peterson echo chamber.

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 05:36:24PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 03:39:49AM -0300, Juan wrote:

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“Free speech is not just another value. It's the foundation of Western civilization.” - Dr Peterson

hey Zen why do ypu keep promoting such a scumbag as peterson? Don't you understand that he's a fraud? You should really work on your critical thinking skills instead of being a putin-dailystormer-peterson echo chamber.

Happy to discuss a position, but generic handwaving doesn't move the conversation usefully, as far as I can tell.

That which is useful to some, may not be useful to you/ others. OK, but that does not stop what is useful from being useful - just like "all families are fascist dictatorships from which comes no good" is unlikely to stack up as a sane position, at least for some folks.

And anyway - what the hell is wrong with someone (in this case Peterson), daring to suggest that the mythology of Christianity might actually embody truths of an abstract sort which truths might be useful to the day to day, and life in general, pursuits of a human? And further, daring to suggest that such abstract principles (if the word "truth" is too much for you to stomach in a conversation which mentions the word Christianity) have substantial overlap with Buddhism? And more yet, that at least some of these abstract principles appear to have a biological emergent basis (one could say from the Darwinian perspective) - including an emergent basis for how to define ethics - this should I imagine be grabbed by both horns by the Sam Harris'es of the world! (As in, an atheist couldn't ask for much more!) Seriously, this is very cool science, mixed into (in this case Peterson's) psychological study of not only the biblican stories in Genesis, but at least those stories from Genesis. Peterson has said --so very much-- that a hand waving "he's full of shit" just does not cut it sorry. If you want to take Peterson down, at least attack some particular principle you claim to be false (or as in James D's case, an example of a position that appears to be manifestly unfair - the Lefty Loonies have had effectively unfettered "permission" to exploit Marxist doctrine for literally decades to smash open the Western hierarchy/ society apple carts, and only now when the Huwaite conservatives start to get going, Peterson turns around and says "oh no you don't - you're not allowed to do that" - sure, can't dispute that that's unfair, and from a practical perspective one could easily say in response (to this unfairness position) "sure, go to it, re-build the Huwaite tribes to the extent possible and use whatever damn principles achieve that result" - but at least be prepared to answer the objections raised by Peterson and his ilk :) ). Juan, I responded to your last Peterson- (and now Zenaan- ) bashing email, here: https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2018-August/042914.html Are you disputing the 300 million year basis for "dominance" hierarchies? What about Peterson's 'emergent basis for ethics'? Or are you just flailing at the windmill of Peterson using the word "Christian" in his talks? Ball's in your court...

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 06:01:31PM -0300, Juan wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 17:36:24 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 03:39:49AM -0300, Juan wrote:

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“Free speech is not just another value. It's the foundation of Western civilization.” - Dr Peterson

hey Zen why do ypu keep promoting such a scumbag as peterson? Don't you understand that he's a fraud? You should really work on your critical thinking skills instead of being a putin-dailystormer-peterson echo chamber.

Happy to discuss a position, but generic handwaving doesn't move the conversation usefully, as far as I can tell.

I gave you more than a few examples showing what kind of piece of shit peterson is in a private message and you ignored them. So don't take me for an idiot.

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That which is useful to some, may not be useful to you/ others.

LMAO. Useful...FOR WHAT. If you are a christian fascist and apologist of western fascism then scumbag peterson is 'useful'. So I guess that is what you are.

A basis for meaning in life is a decent start for a lot of people. Nihilism runs rife in the "modern" hedonistic West, and as far as I can tell leads to depression, apathy and some very dark places.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 06:21:10PM -0300, Juan wrote:

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 19:11:48 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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However, there is much more to this particular conversation than just the negatives.

false. Virtually everythign that scumbag says is right wing garbage.

And notice how if he followed his own advice such as "DONT LIE" he should shut up forever since everything he says is a lie.

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Peterson is re-enlivening meaning - be it Buddhist Daoism, "Western" (Christian) theology and even, truth be, existential "scientific" atheism.

Now THAT's a firetrucking feat!

OK, too bad but you've been re-evaluated. I thought you were able to think for yourself - but you are clearly an echo chamber for peterson. Pathetic. And evil.

Peterson frustrates the atheists because he discusses and dissects Christian theology. Then he alienates the "committed Christians" by analysing the scientific literature suggesting (biologically) emergent ethics - in e.g. rats and lobsters. Further, he does a fine job of highlighting how the very concept of hierarchy is inevitable the moment you or I choose to act in the world, and then suggests that perhaps our mythology was a best attempt (at the time each myth was first spoken) to explain to subsequent generations (without paper and writing of course) the insights of their forefathers about the collective human reality itself. And to top it off, these "emergent" mythologies are surprisingly similar (in their foundations) across religions and cultures. Just one quick example of many: In Christianity, there is the idea of "the king of kings", and some historical figure, in this case a man named Buddha, sorry I mean Jesus, is held up as that ideal of the king of kings. "Ain't no firetruckin man be a king of me" I hear you (rightly) say. But the concept "king" in this context can be taken as "someone who displays the most admirable qualities within a particular hierarchy" - and Peterson gives the classic example of poor vs good sportsmanship - the real king of the game is he who displays those qualities most admired, but across all games in a season, or all games that he ever plays in, and not just the winner of one game - this is the concept of sportsmanship. And the concept "sportsmanship" or "sportsman" (I emphasize man for the trigger-prone here) is just another noun for which "king" in "king of kings" plays a similar role. So those qualities worthy of striving for (of which sportsmanship rather than winning is merely one of many of course) make someone the king of that game - in the case of Michael Jackson, he was named the king of pop music. So, each hierarchy has an abstract king - someone who, theoretically, displays all the finest qualities that can be achieved by someone aiming to develop in the best "sportsman like" way across all games, performances, etc within his field (hierarchy). And the king of kings is then that abstract representation of someone who lives all those admirable qualities across all possible hierarchies or endeavours. It seems useful to teach ones children "good sportsmanship" ("It's not about winning, it's about how you play"). Likewise it seems useful, or at least this is what humans have done across time and across cultures, to abstract "the best possible qualities a human can strive for, across time and across all possible pursuits". Today, "king of kings" sounds a little quaint and old fashioned, but this does not make the concept -- however one chooses to name this concept -- any less instrinsicly useful (of course). Now this might be hard to believe, but some folks are so caught up in winning the particuylar game(s) they play, that they demonstrate poor sportsmanship, and further, hard as it may be to believe, some folks have not even been taught what it means to be a good sport. So in the West we tend to agree that the concept "good sportsmanship" is worth teaching to our children. To teach any concept at all, one must first be able to cognize and identify it, second name it and speak about it in ways which make sense to others. Jordan Peterson is doing a fine job of naming a bunch of things, identifying where, how and presumably why they arise in our mythology, and delivering this in talks, discussions and interviews which are evidently compelling to millions of people. Please feel free to do better - there is evidently a real market for those who can communicate complex concepts in compelling ways, so if get good at doing so, you may well get a massive following.

Professor Gets Probation For Bludgeoning Conservatives With Bike Lock https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-10/professor-gets-probation-bludgeoni... and Democracy ... it's not gone, fact is you never had it (no -where- have I heard -that- one before - surely not from Juan? :) Alexis de Tocqueville Was Wrong https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-10/alexis-de-tocqueville-was-wrong From inception, democracy in America was pure fantasy. No rule of the people ever existed – governance of, by, and for the privileged few alone at the expense of most others. … On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 09:42:13AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

Microsoft now piling onto the anti-semitic speech wagon:

Apparently Gab is centralised and currently runs on Microfascist's cloud service or something... evidently a decentralised service is needed. Golden opportunity for the inspired...

(BTW, ridiculously humorous Heather Heyer memes and comments elided to ensure this email does not get censored...)

Microsoft Threatens to Shut Down GAB Unless They Censor Anti-Jew Posts Adrian Sol Daily Stormer August 10, 2018 https://dailystormer.name/microsoft-threatens-to-shut-down-gab-unless-they-c...

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Microsoft pointed to two posts from Gab user Patrick Little, one that calls for the “complete eradication of all Jews” and the other which calls for their death by torture: “After an initial review, we have concluded that this content incites violence, is not protected by the First Amendment, and violates Microsoft Azure’s acceptable use policy,” a Microsoft spokesperson told Motherboard. “Microsoft notified Gab.ai of this substantial concern and advised that it remove this content or respond to Microsoft within 48 hours, or potentially risk suspension of its service on Azure.”

That, of course, is bullshit.

The First Amendment absolutely protects calls for violence, as long as no “specific and credible threat” is involved. Simply calling for the destruction of a race, even by torture, is protected speech.

Nevertheless, the two tweets (“gabs”) in question have already been removed by GAB. …

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 03:40:07AM +0000, jim bell wrote:

On Friday, August 10, 2018, 4:42:51 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness wrote: Microsoft Threatens to Shut Down GAB Unless They Censor Anti-Jew Posts Adrian Sol Daily Stormer August 10, 2018 https://dailystormer.name/microsoft-threatens-to-shut-down-gab-unless-they-c...

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Microsoft pointed to two posts from Gab user Patrick Little, one that calls for the “complete eradication of all Jews” and the other which calls for their death by torture: “After an initial review, we have concluded that this content incites violence, is not protected by the First Amendment, and violates Microsoft Azure’s acceptable use policy,” a Microsoft spokesperson told Motherboard. “Microsoft notified Gab.ai of this substantial concern and advised that it remove this content or respond to Microsoft within 48 hours, or potentially risk suspension of its service on Azure.”

That, of course, is bullshit. The First Amendment absolutely protects calls for violence, as long as no “specific and credible threat” is involved. Simply calling for the destruction of a race, even by torture, is protected speech.

You are correct.  The controlling case is Brandenburg v. Ohio, 1969.  Although, since I no longer have access to a LEXIS computer system, I cannot Shepardize (modern equivalent:  Text search) this case in the various appeals Circuits to see how they have further interpreted it.

Thanks for your update Jim, but just to clarify that I did not write that so I can't claim it as authored by me - it's from Anglin of TDS.