Cyberpunk, Stasi Spies Youth SubCulture
East German secret police guide for identifying youth subcultures (1985) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18532842 https://twitter.com/industrial_book/status/1066411965004812288 https://twitter.com/TurnerMarko/status/1066830331288973314 x220 3 hours ago [-] One subculture I got somewhat involved in was the internet cyberpunk-hacker culture, until about a year ago. Communicating through 4chan threads, alt-chans, and IRC channels, these users were always interesting to read from on various topics such as cyberpunk media, politics, current events, hacking, software, fashion, and travel. I'm dismayed that it petered out. I see the cyberpunk form of art and worldview as more useful with each passing year. reply peterwwillis 23 minutes ago [-] What was the cyberpunk worldview? Afaik it was something along the lines of "the world is run by vast networks of shadowy dystopian entities and we must use cryptography to resist this so we can have freedom" (basically, Information Technology libertarians) reply westmeal 18 minutes ago [-] That's the cypherpunks. Cyberpunks are 'high tech low lifes'. reply wavefunction 19 minutes ago [-] That's cypherpunks. reply malvosenior 2 hours ago [-] Do you have any theories as to why it petered out? Like you I feel it's more relevant today than ever before but also can't find a growing or healthy community with that mindset anymore. reply x220 2 hours ago [-] Aside from conspiracy-theorizing about current events (and I don't use that term pejoratively), people tended to discuss the same topics. New cyberpunk media doesn't come out very often, so people tended to talk about the same books, movies, manga, anime, videogames, and fashion. Some of the alt-chans with dedicated cyberpunk boards would run out of ideas to talk about pretty quickly, since there weren't enough posts that the website had to prune old threads like 4chan did. Another hypothesis I have is that cyberpunk media is not as captivating as it used to be since we arguably live in a cyberpunk world. In America there is unimaginable wealth inequality, with some cities having insane costs of rent for cramped apartments, with access to the best technology and medicine in the world but only if you can afford it. We also don't have to use media to imagine a world where digital corporations have a huge amount of power over daily life and the government spies on everyone all the time since both of those things are happening right now. I think we live in a cyberpunk world, it just doesn't have huge buildings, neon lights, and widespread punk fashion. I came in contact with a few guys who wanted to make another alt-chan with a different model (see what other users are typing in real-time, and all posts get deleted early in the morning) but it never materialized as far as I can tell. Edit: do any of you want to join an online cyberpunk community? reply ebullientocelot 1 hour ago [-] I don't think your two points are mutually exclusive, and suspect they are both correct to one degree or another. I live in a second-tier city working for a second-tier company and my daily life is already fairly cyberpunk! During the day I actively work on the advertising economy surveillance state, and at home I do things like install the Pi-Hole for my family and try to help anybody who will listen reduce their target profile for the eye in the sky. I mention this, particularly that my city and company are second-tier, because you don't have to work at FAANGM in SV to experience these things. There is definitely a sense in which I would be interested in at least checking out a cyberpunk community, but as other have mentioned, it's more or less culture now. reply ip26 1 hour ago [-] Another challenge is when your alt culture goes mainstream, now it's just culture. The alt community has to tack deeper to the extremes to stay alt. You don't need an alt board to talk about current events (aside from conspiracy theories) reply ebullientocelot 59 minutes ago [-] While this is true, I still experience a little of that early-exposure-to-the-Internet sense of wonder when I stumble across a community that's off the beaten path technologically. sdf.org's Gopher service was such an experience in the past couple years. reply starbeast 2 hours ago [-] Not an online one. If it was a BBS running on a cube sat, then maybe. reply n-exploit 2 hours ago [-] Maybe it's time to create anew. reply eindiran 2 hours ago [-] Are you considering making it materialize now? reply x220 1 hour ago [-] I'm considering making an alt-chan that cyclically purges content. reply miss_classified 55 minutes ago [-] By now, it should be obvious that your efforts to attenuate the duration of long-running content won't prove to cultivate an increase in the quality of participation. There are (at least) three aspects of online community participation, that seasoned users are pretty well-versed in: 1. Archiving, mirroring and back-ups. 2. Leaked screen captures and scrapes of private direct messaging. 3. Back-end aggregation of logs and messages, even for supposedly private SMS interactions. Forget it dude. We all know that whatever signals get placed onto the wire turn out to be spliced through passive beam splitters and land in an open S3 bucket. The ones that don't? Your girlfriend just screenshots it, and and tweets it out in the open for the world to see anyway. Whoops! There are no more online subcultures. Only distortions of perception enforced by impulsive, would-be moderators. reply beloch 33 minutes ago [-] You might consider asking why so many of the greatest cyberpunk authors abandoned the genre. Many science fiction authors idealistically try to produce stories they feel society needs to hear at a given point rather than just retreading genres that have been well-mined and which they feel aren't contributing to progress. Google Neal Stephenson and "getting big stuff done". Stephenson wrote some of the best books late in Cyperpunk's sci-fi reign, but later came to feel that portraying technological advance as leading to decay, inequality, and corruption was contributing to the stifling of technological ambition in the U.S.. When huge technological leaps are necessary to get past pressing problems like clean energy, space exploration, etc., does it make sense for pop culture to portray technological progress as a negative force that will lead to dystopias? William Gibson gradually moved away from Cyberpunk for a long period of time, writing novels that were set closer and closer to the present day. "The Peripheral", released in 2014, was the first book by Gibson set in what could be considered "Cyberpunk" for quite a while, but it's not really cyberpunk. (Note: Mild spoilers ahead) Technology does indeed create a calamity that negatively impacts world society in this book, but "cleptocrats" are just as much to blame for creating a dystopia. However, the book also shows some "big stuff" being done, even in the dystopia, and some pretty far-out tech ultimately prevents the calamity it created in the book's prime timeline. A fairly idealistic group of heroes actually change the world for the better using technology in this book, which is rather more optimistic view of both people and technology than is consistent with standard cyberpunk. While Ernest Cline was not an established author before writing "Ready Player One", it's interesting to note that this book doesn't really represent a return to cyberpunk for serious science fiction. The plot can certainly be considered cyberpunk. (Note: I have read the book, but not seen the movie yet). However, it's basically one long dose of 80's nostalgia, so the cyberpunk setting makes perfect sense for that book. Thus, it's not really science fiction in this respect. It's not trying to predict or shape the future. It's an exercise in wallowing in the past, and the form of this novel matches that function. I'm still a fan of cyberpunk, but I recognize that science fiction has moved on. It responds to the needs of society, and nightmarish technocratic dystopias are not what is needed today. reply
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 08:34:19PM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
East German secret police guide for identifying youth subcultures (1985)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18532842 https://twitter.com/industrial_book/status/1066411965004812288 https://twitter.com/TurnerMarko/status/1066830331288973314
x220 3 hours ago [-]
One subculture I got somewhat involved in was the internet cyberpunk-hacker culture, until about a year ago. Communicating through 4chan threads, alt-chans, and IRC channels, these users were always interesting to read from on various topics such as cyberpunk media, politics, current events, hacking, software, fashion, and travel.
I'm dismayed that it petered out. I see the cyberpunk form of art and worldview as more useful with each passing year.
reply
peterwwillis 23 minutes ago [-]
What was the cyberpunk worldview? Afaik it was something along the lines of "the world is run by vast networks of shadowy dystopian entities and we must use cryptography to resist this so we can have freedom" (basically, Information Technology libertarians)
reply
westmeal 18 minutes ago [-]
That's the cypherpunks. Cyberpunks are 'high tech low lifes'.
reply
wavefunction 19 minutes ago [-]
That's cypherpunks.
reply
malvosenior 2 hours ago [-]
Do you have any theories as to why it petered out? Like you I feel it's more relevant today than ever before but also can't find a growing or healthy community with that mindset anymore.
reply
x220 2 hours ago [-]
Aside from conspiracy-theorizing about current events (and I don't use that term pejoratively), people tended to discuss the same topics. New cyberpunk media doesn't come out very often, so people tended to talk about the same books, movies, manga, anime, videogames, and fashion. Some of the alt-chans with dedicated cyberpunk boards would run out of ideas to talk about pretty quickly, since there weren't enough posts that the website had to prune old threads like 4chan did.
Another hypothesis I have is that cyberpunk media is not as captivating as it used to be since we arguably live in a cyberpunk world. In America there is unimaginable wealth inequality, with some cities having insane costs of rent for cramped apartments, with access to the best technology and medicine in the world but only if you can afford it. We also don't have to use media to imagine a world where digital corporations have a huge amount of power over daily life and the government spies on everyone all the time since both of those things are happening right now. I think we live in a cyberpunk world, it just doesn't have huge buildings, neon lights, and widespread punk fashion.
I came in contact with a few guys who wanted to make another alt-chan with a different model (see what other users are typing in real-time, and all posts get deleted early in the morning) but it never materialized as far as I can tell.
Edit: do any of you want to join an online cyberpunk community?
reply
ebullientocelot 1 hour ago [-]
I don't think your two points are mutually exclusive, and suspect they are both correct to one degree or another. I live in a second-tier city working for a second-tier company and my daily life is already fairly cyberpunk! During the day I actively work on the advertising economy surveillance state, and at home I do things like install the Pi-Hole for my family and try to help anybody who will listen reduce their target profile for the eye in the sky. I mention this, particularly that my city and company are second-tier, because you don't have to work at FAANGM in SV to experience these things.
There is definitely a sense in which I would be interested in at least checking out a cyberpunk community, but as other have mentioned, it's more or less culture now.
reply
ip26 1 hour ago [-]
Another challenge is when your alt culture goes mainstream, now it's just culture. The alt community has to tack deeper to the extremes to stay alt. You don't need an alt board to talk about current events (aside from conspiracy theories)
reply
ebullientocelot 59 minutes ago [-]
While this is true, I still experience a little of that early-exposure-to-the-Internet sense of wonder when I stumble across a community that's off the beaten path technologically. sdf.org's Gopher service was such an experience in the past couple years.
reply
starbeast 2 hours ago [-]
Not an online one. If it was a BBS running on a cube sat, then maybe.
reply
n-exploit 2 hours ago [-]
Maybe it's time to create anew.
reply
eindiran 2 hours ago [-]
Are you considering making it materialize now?
reply
x220 1 hour ago [-]
I'm considering making an alt-chan that cyclically purges content.
reply
miss_classified 55 minutes ago [-]
By now, it should be obvious that your efforts to attenuate the duration of long-running content won't prove to cultivate an increase in the quality of participation.
There are (at least) three aspects of online community participation, that seasoned users are pretty well-versed in:
1. Archiving, mirroring and back-ups.
2. Leaked screen captures and scrapes of private direct messaging.
3. Back-end aggregation of logs and messages, even for supposedly private SMS interactions.
Forget it dude. We all know that whatever signals get placed onto the wire turn out to be spliced through passive beam splitters and land in an open S3 bucket.
The ones that don't? Your girlfriend just screenshots it, and and tweets it out in the open for the world to see anyway. Whoops!
There are no more online subcultures. Only distortions of perception enforced by impulsive, would-be moderators.
reply
beloch 33 minutes ago [-]
You might consider asking why so many of the greatest cyberpunk authors abandoned the genre. Many science fiction authors idealistically try to produce stories they feel society needs to hear at a given point rather than just retreading genres that have been well-mined and which they feel aren't contributing to progress.
Google Neal Stephenson and "getting big stuff done". Stephenson wrote some of the best books late in Cyperpunk's sci-fi reign, but later came to feel that portraying technological advance as leading to decay, inequality, and corruption was contributing to the stifling of technological ambition in the U.S.. When huge technological leaps are necessary to get past pressing problems like clean energy, space exploration, etc., does it make sense for pop culture to portray technological progress as a negative force that will lead to dystopias?
William Gibson gradually moved away from Cyberpunk for a long period of time, writing novels that were set closer and closer to the present day. "The Peripheral", released in 2014, was the first book by Gibson set in what could be considered "Cyberpunk" for quite a while, but it's not really cyberpunk. (Note: Mild spoilers ahead) Technology does indeed create a calamity that negatively impacts world society in this book, but "cleptocrats" are just as much to blame for creating a dystopia. However, the book also shows some "big stuff" being done, even in the dystopia, and some pretty far-out tech ultimately prevents the calamity it created in the book's prime timeline. A fairly idealistic group of heroes actually change the world for the better using technology in this book, which is rather more optimistic view of both people and technology than is consistent with standard cyberpunk.
While Ernest Cline was not an established author before writing "Ready Player One", it's interesting to note that this book doesn't really represent a return to cyberpunk for serious science fiction. The plot can certainly be considered cyberpunk. (Note: I have read the book, but not seen the movie yet). However, it's basically one long dose of 80's nostalgia, so the cyberpunk setting makes perfect sense for that book. Thus, it's not really science fiction in this respect. It's not trying to predict or shape the future. It's an exercise in wallowing in the past, and the form of this novel matches that function.
I'm still a fan of cyberpunk, but I recognize that science fiction has moved on. It responds to the needs of society, and nightmarish technocratic dystopias are not what is needed today.
Richard Morgans's stuff - e.g. 13 (Black Man in the UK), his new book Thin Air, the Kovacs series (Altered Carbon, etc) are all basically cyberpunk. Charles Stross, Peter Watts, Hannu Rajaniemi, Paolo Bacagalupi, and so many more are writing cyberpunk, or "neo-cyberpunk".. I'm not even including other favorites that don't really fit cyberpunk, like China Mieville or Jeff VanderMeer or Jonathan Lethem...... etc :) All that classic shit by Gibson & Sterling & Rucker & Shiner & Shirley etc never gets old, but there is a lot of great new stuff.. I've probably read Neuromancer more than any other novel, maybe that's embarassing heh.. I've not read it in YEARS, but as a teenager I read it at least a couple times a year (and this was 10+ years after it came out).. I still love all the old stuff, but there is a shit load of good new stuff coming out or that has come out in the last decade. cheers, John -- GPG fingerprint: 17FD 615A D20D AFE8 B3E4 C9D2 E324 20BE D47A 78C7
participants (2)
-
grarpamp -
John Newman