[info@fsf.org: He invented the Web. Would he give up on free standards?]
----- Forwarded message from "Zak Rogoff, FSF" <info@fsf.org> ----- Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:09:55 -0500 From: "Zak Rogoff, FSF" <info@fsf.org> Reply-To: "Zak Rogoff, FSF" <info@fsf.org> Subject: He invented the Web. Would he give up on free standards? Dear Mr Zenaan Harkness, The chief arbiter of Web standards, Tim Berners-Lee, has an important choice to make this week. He must decide whether or not to allow media and technology companies to add socially harmful [Digital Restrictions Management (DRM)][1] into the technical capabilities of the Web, with a proposal called [Encrypted Media Extensions][2] (EME). The companies are currently asking for Berners-Lee's seal of approval to move EME to the next phase of standardization: a Proposed Recommendation of the [World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)][3]. [1]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_managemen... [2]: https://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media [3]: https://www.w3.org Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. Back then timbl -- as he's known online -- declined opportunities to lock down his creation and established himself as an advocate for a freedom-affirming, interoperable, and universally accessible World Wide Web. Now he's considering turning his back on this vision to make Netflix, Google, Apple, and Microsoft happy. **We have just days to convince Tim Berners-Lee to choose freedom for the Web and block Encrypted Media Extensions from becoming an official standard. Repeat the [GNU social][4] and [Twitter][6]¹ messages from our anti-DRM campaign, asking Tim a simple question: #WhatWouldTimblDo? Would the Web's once idealistic inventor really give up on free standards?** [4]: https://status.fsf.org/notice/189277 [6]: https://mobile.twitter.com/endDRM/status/796475563204550656 Not in to social media? You can also take action by [sending in a selfie against DRM in Web standards][7] or [signing our petition][8]. [7]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/selfie-against-drm-in-web-standards [8]: https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/profile/create?gid=183&reset=1 ### Some background Big media owners, like the movie studios represented by the [MPAA][9] and the music labels represented by the [RIAA][10], feel threatened by the sharing that digital technology enables. Since the '90s, they've poured bottomless resources into locking down not just the Web but physical devices as well. One of their favorite tools is DRM -- digital handcuffs that limit what people can do with media. [9]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/topic/mpaa [10]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/topic/riaa These companies have never cared that DRM denies users the right to control their computers, or that it causes huge collateral damage by [opening security holes][11], restricting cultural creativity, and [limiting accessibility for the disabled][12]. In fact, they've even had laws like the [Digital Millenium Copyright Act][13] passed, to give DRM special status that makes it illegal to circumvent. More recently, companies that stream media, like Netflix and Google, have forged distribution deals with media giants. These lucrative relationships are an incentive to join the labels in their quest for control. [11]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ten-years-after-sony-rootkit [12]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/disabling-the-disabled [13]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/DMCA-exemptions-process-anti-circumvention In 2013 Berners-Lee surprised the world by allowing some of the companies that use DRM -- namely Netflix, Apple, Google, and Microsoft -- to start developing their latest project within the walls of the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), the official Web standards organization led by Berners-Lee. Their project, EME, is a universal DRM system for the Web. The choice Berners-Lee faces now is whether or not to allow EME to reach the "maturity level" of a Proposed W3C Recommendation, indicating he feels it is ready to become an official standard and passing it to the W3C's Advisory Committee for ratification. This is the first time that Berners-Lee and the W3C have considered including DRM in Web standards. Berners-Lee seems to be hoping that the big media companies will accept EME and use it to make DRM cheaper and easier for streaming video, then leave the free Web alone. But history shows us the exact opposite. DRM has to keep spreading to new platforms and formats to maintain control over users, and its owners have no reason not to use their massive power and money to continue integrating it into more elements of the Web. Indeed, there are murmurs about adding DRM to [text][14] and [image][15] standards, which would be energized by the ratification of EME. EME foreshadows a future Web that is riddled with DRM, where the freedom and transparency of the system (like viewing source HTML in a browser) will be gradually phased out. [14]: http://idpf.org/epub-content-protection [15]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/theres-no-drm-jpeg-lets-keep-it-way ### We won't give up on the Web Berners-Lee still has a chance to say no to EME and keep the W3C on the right side of history. There is a real possibility that he might -- he's [recently weakened his support for EME][16]. If he does reject it, he will be congratulated by the community of technologists that work in the public interest -- figures like security expert [Bruce Schneier][17] and MIT Media Lab director [Joi Ito][18] have been very clear that they want a Web without DRM, and more than 34,000 people sent the same message through [petition signatures][19]. All timbl has to do is remember his original vision for the Web, and block EME from moving forward through the W3C standards-setting process. [16]: https://defectivebydesign.org/blog/tim_bernerslee_just_gave_us_opening_stop_... [17]: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/01/fighting_drm_in.html [18]: https://boingboing.net/2016/03/13/joi-ito-on-drm-the-world-wide.html [19]: https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/profile/create?gid=183&reset=1 **Head to [GNU social][4] or [Twitter][6]¹, and remind Tim Berners-Lee of his original vision for the Web.** [4]: https://status.fsf.org/notice/189277 [6]: https://mobile.twitter.com/endDRM/status/796475563204550656 ¹: We recommend free software-based, decentralized microblogging services like GNU Social and Pump.io over Twitter ([read more][20]). [20]: https://www.fsf.org/twitter Zak Rogoff Campaigns Manager *Read online: <https://defectivebydesign.org/blog/tim_bernerslee_created_sold_out_web>* -- * Follow us at <https://status.fsf.org/fsf>. * Subscribe to our RSS feeds at <https://fsf.org/blogs/RSS>. * Join us as an associate member at <https://www.fsf.org/jf>. Sent from the Free Software Foundation, 51 Franklin St, Fifth Floor Boston, Massachusetts 02110-1335 UNITED STATES You can unsubscribe from this mailing list by visiting https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/mailing/unsubscribe?reset=1&jid=146835&qid=22185512&h=2cecfc80f2a22db0. To stop all email from the Free Software Foundation, including Defective by Design, and the Free Software Supporter newsletter, visit https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/mailing/optout?reset=1&jid=146835&qid=22185512&h=2cecfc80f2a22db0. ----- End forwarded message -----
On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:
Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF! MAYBE the TERM "WWW". Rr
----- Forwarded message from "Zak Rogoff, FSF" <info@fsf.org> ----- Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:09:55 -0500 From: "Zak Rogoff, FSF" <info@fsf.org> Reply-To: "Zak Rogoff, FSF" <info@fsf.org> Subject: He invented the Web. Would he give up on free standards?
Dear Mr Zenaan Harkness,
The chief arbiter of Web standards, Tim Berners-Lee, has an important choice to make this week. He must decide whether or not to allow media and technology companies to add socially harmful [Digital Restrictions Management (DRM)][1] into the technical capabilities of the Web, with a proposal called [Encrypted Media Extensions][2] (EME). The companies are currently asking for Berners-Lee's seal of approval to move EME to the next phase of standardization: a Proposed Recommendation of the [World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)][3].
[1]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_managemen... [2]: https://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media [3]: https://www.w3.org
Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. Back then timbl -- as he's known online -- declined opportunities to lock down his creation and established himself as an advocate for a freedom-affirming, interoperable, and universally accessible World Wide Web. Now he's considering turning his back on this vision to make Netflix, Google, Apple, and Microsoft happy.
**We have just days to convince Tim Berners-Lee to choose freedom for the Web and block Encrypted Media Extensions from becoming an official standard. Repeat the [GNU social][4] and [Twitter][6]¹ messages from our anti-DRM campaign, asking Tim a simple question: #WhatWouldTimblDo? Would the Web's once idealistic inventor really give up on free standards?**
[4]: https://status.fsf.org/notice/189277 [6]: https://mobile.twitter.com/endDRM/status/796475563204550656
Not in to social media? You can also take action by [sending in a selfie against DRM in Web standards][7] or [signing our petition][8].
[7]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/selfie-against-drm-in-web-standards [8]: https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/profile/create?gid=183&reset=1
### Some background
Big media owners, like the movie studios represented by the [MPAA][9] and the music labels represented by the [RIAA][10], feel threatened by the sharing that digital technology enables. Since the '90s, they've poured bottomless resources into locking down not just the Web but physical devices as well. One of their favorite tools is DRM -- digital handcuffs that limit what people can do with media.
[9]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/topic/mpaa [10]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/topic/riaa
These companies have never cared that DRM denies users the right to control their computers, or that it causes huge collateral damage by [opening security holes][11], restricting cultural creativity, and [limiting accessibility for the disabled][12]. In fact, they've even had laws like the [Digital Millenium Copyright Act][13] passed, to give DRM special status that makes it illegal to circumvent. More recently, companies that stream media, like Netflix and Google, have forged distribution deals with media giants. These lucrative relationships are an incentive to join the labels in their quest for control.
[11]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ten-years-after-sony-rootkit [12]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/disabling-the-disabled [13]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/DMCA-exemptions-process-anti-circumvention
In 2013 Berners-Lee surprised the world by allowing some of the companies that use DRM -- namely Netflix, Apple, Google, and Microsoft -- to start developing their latest project within the walls of the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), the official Web standards organization led by Berners-Lee. Their project, EME, is a universal DRM system for the Web. The choice Berners-Lee faces now is whether or not to allow EME to reach the "maturity level" of a Proposed W3C Recommendation, indicating he feels it is ready to become an official standard and passing it to the W3C's Advisory Committee for ratification.
This is the first time that Berners-Lee and the W3C have considered including DRM in Web standards. Berners-Lee seems to be hoping that the big media companies will accept EME and use it to make DRM cheaper and easier for streaming video, then leave the free Web alone. But history shows us the exact opposite. DRM has to keep spreading to new platforms and formats to maintain control over users, and its owners have no reason not to use their massive power and money to continue integrating it into more elements of the Web. Indeed, there are murmurs about adding DRM to [text][14] and [image][15] standards, which would be energized by the ratification of EME. EME foreshadows a future Web that is riddled with DRM, where the freedom and transparency of the system (like viewing source HTML in a browser) will be gradually phased out.
[14]: http://idpf.org/epub-content-protection [15]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/theres-no-drm-jpeg-lets-keep-it-way
### We won't give up on the Web
Berners-Lee still has a chance to say no to EME and keep the W3C on the right side of history. There is a real possibility that he might -- he's [recently weakened his support for EME][16]. If he does reject it, he will be congratulated by the community of technologists that work in the public interest -- figures like security expert [Bruce Schneier][17] and MIT Media Lab director [Joi Ito][18] have been very clear that they want a Web without DRM, and more than 34,000 people sent the same message through [petition signatures][19]. All timbl has to do is remember his original vision for the Web, and block EME from moving forward through the W3C standards-setting process.
[16]: https://defectivebydesign.org/blog/tim_bernerslee_just_gave_us_opening_stop_... [17]: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/01/fighting_drm_in.html [18]: https://boingboing.net/2016/03/13/joi-ito-on-drm-the-world-wide.html [19]: https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/profile/create?gid=183&reset=1
**Head to [GNU social][4] or [Twitter][6]¹, and remind Tim Berners-Lee of his original vision for the Web.**
[4]: https://status.fsf.org/notice/189277 [6]: https://mobile.twitter.com/endDRM/status/796475563204550656
¹: We recommend free software-based, decentralized microblogging services like GNU Social and Pump.io over Twitter ([read more][20]).
[20]: https://www.fsf.org/twitter
Zak Rogoff Campaigns Manager
*Read online: <https://defectivebydesign.org/blog/tim_bernerslee_created_sold_out_web>*
On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:
Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF!
MAYBE the TERM "WWW".
Rr
There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared information, like Ted Nelson. http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/ sdw
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'. It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A stupid-ing down of the history of the internet. On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:
Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF!
MAYBE the TERM "WWW".
Rr
There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared information, like Ted Nelson.
http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/
sdw
VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as being a significant leap forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf
After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant professor <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted research on packet network interconnection protocols and co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn.
TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution. "Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless. You're ideology is strange and not very useful. We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to national telecoms with only centralized "security", for instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic principle way. sdw On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A stupid-ing down of the history of the internet.
On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:
Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF!
MAYBE the TERM "WWW".
Rr
There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared information, like Ted Nelson.
http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/
sdw
On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty fucking obvious troll. Rr
VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as being a significant leap forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf
After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant professor <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted research on packet network interconnection protocols and co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn.
TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution.
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
You're ideology is strange and not very useful.
We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to national telecoms with only centralized "security", for instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic principle way.
sdw
On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A stupid-ing down of the history of the internet.
On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:
Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF!
MAYBE the TERM "WWW".
Rr
There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared information, like Ted Nelson.
http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/
sdw
On 11/11/16 10:19 AM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty fucking obvious troll.
You said:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I interpreted that as: CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE ... [some implied connection] a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'. I couldn't tell if you were referring to later implementations and use of things like KA9Q as somehow affecting the fact that he designed the protocol a decade or more earlier, or if you were saying that he was a ham radio operator on some team who took all the credit for a team effort as Linus (quite fairly) has. Since none of it seems very logical, and the former is ridiculous, I took my best guess at meaning. Misunderstanding your poor communication is not trolling. Being obtuse then calling misunderstandings trolling is trolling.
Rr
sdw
VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as being a significant leap forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf
After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant professor <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted research on packet network interconnection protocols and co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn.
TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution.
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
You're ideology is strange and not very useful.
We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to national telecoms with only centralized "security", for instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic principle way.
sdw
On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A stupid-ing down of the history of the internet.
On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:
Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF!
MAYBE the TERM "WWW".
Rr
There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared information, like Ted Nelson.
http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/
sdw
Dude! You EXEMPLIFY "Obtuse". On 11/11/2016 10:30 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 10:19 AM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty fucking obvious troll.
You said:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I interpreted that as:
CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE ... [some implied connection] a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I couldn't tell if you were referring to later implementations and use of things like KA9Q as somehow affecting the fact that he designed the protocol a decade or more earlier, or if you were saying that he was a ham radio operator on some team who took all the credit for a team effort as Linus (quite fairly) has. Since none of it seems very logical, and the former is ridiculous, I took my best guess at meaning.
Misunderstanding your poor communication is not trolling. Being obtuse then calling misunderstandings trolling is trolling.
Rr
sdw
VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as being a significant leap forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf
After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant professor <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted research on packet network interconnection protocols and co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn.
TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution.
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
You're ideology is strange and not very useful.
We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to national telecoms with only centralized "security", for instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic principle way.
sdw
On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A stupid-ing down of the history of the internet.
On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:
> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF!
MAYBE the TERM "WWW".
Rr
There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared information, like Ted Nelson.
http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/
sdw
Specific and well-known historical record is obtuse? I don't think you know what that word means. sdw On 11/11/16 10:54 AM, Razer wrote:
Dude! You EXEMPLIFY "Obtuse".
On 11/11/2016 10:30 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 10:19 AM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty fucking obvious troll.
You said:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I interpreted that as:
CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE ... [some implied connection] a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I couldn't tell if you were referring to later implementations and use of things like KA9Q as somehow affecting the fact that he designed the protocol a decade or more earlier, or if you were saying that he was a ham radio operator on some team who took all the credit for a team effort as Linus (quite fairly) has. Since none of it seems very logical, and the former is ridiculous, I took my best guess at meaning.
Misunderstanding your poor communication is not trolling. Being obtuse then calling misunderstandings trolling is trolling.
Rr
sdw
VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as being a significant leap forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf
After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant professor <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted research on packet network interconnection protocols and co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn.
TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution.
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
You're ideology is strange and not very useful.
We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to national telecoms with only centralized "security", for instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic principle way.
sdw
On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A stupid-ing down of the history of the internet.
On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote: > > On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck: > > >> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. > > I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can > imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF! > > MAYBE the TERM "WWW". > > Rr
There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared information, like Ted Nelson.
http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/
sdw
On 11/11/2016 11:12 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
Specific and well-known historical record is obtuse? I don't think you know what that word means.
sdw
Yes I do. It means tangential... surrounded by blather... Go look it up. You bury grams of information in pounds of trash talk. Rr
On 11/11/16 10:54 AM, Razer wrote:
Dude! You EXEMPLIFY "Obtuse".
On 11/11/2016 10:30 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 10:19 AM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty fucking obvious troll.
You said:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I interpreted that as:
CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE ... [some implied connection] a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I couldn't tell if you were referring to later implementations and use of things like KA9Q as somehow affecting the fact that he designed the protocol a decade or more earlier, or if you were saying that he was a ham radio operator on some team who took all the credit for a team effort as Linus (quite fairly) has. Since none of it seems very logical, and the former is ridiculous, I took my best guess at meaning.
Misunderstanding your poor communication is not trolling. Being obtuse then calling misunderstandings trolling is trolling.
Rr
sdw
VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as being a significant leap forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf
After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant professor <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted research on packet network interconnection protocols and co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn.
TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution.
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
You're ideology is strange and not very useful.
We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to national telecoms with only centralized "security", for instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic principle way.
sdw
On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A stupid-ing down of the history of the internet.
On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote: > On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote: >> >> On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck: >> >> >>> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. >> >> I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you >> know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. >> One person inventing the WWW... ROTF! >> >> MAYBE the TERM "WWW". >> >> Rr > > There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals > inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet > and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core > and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all about > it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching > from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf > co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the > Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is said to have > "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier > suggested some kind of linked shared information, like Ted Nelson. > > http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/ > > sdw >
On 11/11/16 12:05 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 11:12 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
Specific and well-known historical record is obtuse? I don't think you know what that word means.
sdw
Yes I do. It means tangential... surrounded by blather...
Go look it up. You bury grams of information in pounds of trash talk.
No, it doesn't: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/obtuse
adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
sdw
Rr
On 11/11/16 10:54 AM, Razer wrote:
Dude! You EXEMPLIFY "Obtuse".
On 11/11/2016 10:30 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 10:19 AM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty fucking obvious troll.
You said:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I interpreted that as:
CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE ... [some implied connection] a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I couldn't tell if you were referring to later implementations and use of things like KA9Q as somehow affecting the fact that he designed the protocol a decade or more earlier, or if you were saying that he was a ham radio operator on some team who took all the credit for a team effort as Linus (quite fairly) has. Since none of it seems very logical, and the former is ridiculous, I took my best guess at meaning.
Misunderstanding your poor communication is not trolling. Being obtuse then calling misunderstandings trolling is trolling.
Rr
sdw
VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as being a significant leap forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf > After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant professor > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted > research on packet network interconnection protocols and co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn.
TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution.
"Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless.
You're ideology is strange and not very useful.
We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to national telecoms with only centralized "security", for instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic principle way.
sdw
On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote: > > This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a > ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'. > > It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A > stupid-ing down of the history of the internet. > > > On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote: >> On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote: >>> >>> On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck: >>> >>> >>>> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. >>> >>> I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can >>> imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF! >>> >>> MAYBE the TERM "WWW". >>> >>> Rr >> >> There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the >> Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have >> read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web >> pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is >> said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared >> information, like Ted Nelson. >> >> http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/ >> >> sdw >> >
-- Stephen D. Williams sdw@lig.net stephendwilliams@gmail.com LinkedIn: http://sdw.st/in V:650-450-UNIX (8649) V:866.SDW.UNIX V:703.371.9362 F:703.995.0407 AIM:sdw Skype:StephenDWilliams Yahoo:sdwlignet Resume: http://sdw.st/gres Personal: http://sdw.st facebook.com/sdwlig twitter.com/scienteer
On 11/11/2016 12:08 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 12:05 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 11:12 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
Specific and well-known historical record is obtuse? I don't think you know what that word means.
sdw
Yes I do. It means tangential... surrounded by blather...
Go look it up. You bury grams of information in pounds of trash talk.
No, it doesn't: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/obtuse
adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
sdw
Obtuse in a KIND OF ANGLE, STUPID. No wonder you don't make any sense most of the time an our eys all glaze over when you post. Your idiocy in using it adjectively, despite the fact that almost NO ONE uses it that way, to fend of criticism of your blather, IS A PRIME EXAMPLE of your Obtuseness, adjectively. Rr
Rr
On 11/11/16 10:54 AM, Razer wrote:
Dude! You EXEMPLIFY "Obtuse".
On 11/11/2016 10:30 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 10:19 AM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
> "Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't > contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so > clueless. >
I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty fucking obvious troll.
You said:
This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I interpreted that as:
CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE ... [some implied connection] a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I couldn't tell if you were referring to later implementations and use of things like KA9Q as somehow affecting the fact that he designed the protocol a decade or more earlier, or if you were saying that he was a ham radio operator on some team who took all the credit for a team effort as Linus (quite fairly) has. Since none of it seems very logical, and the former is ridiculous, I took my best guess at meaning.
Misunderstanding your poor communication is not trolling. Being obtuse then calling misunderstandings trolling is trolling.
Rr
sdw
> VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said > co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving > networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed > and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent > depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as > being a significant leap forward. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf >> After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant >> professor >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> >> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted >> research on packet network interconnection protocols and >> co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn. > > TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol > problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. > It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first > released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf > invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what > he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution. > > "Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't > contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so > clueless. > > You're ideology is strange and not very useful. > > We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the > Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't > value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much > worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to > national telecoms with only centralized "security", for > instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic > principle way. > > sdw > > On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote: >> >> This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP >> ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc >> b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a >> Torvalds'. >> >> It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal >> computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A >> stupid-ing down of the history of the internet. >> >> >> On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote: >>> On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote: >>>> >>>> On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. >>>> >>>> I've seen this claim about a number of different people and >>>> you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can >>>> imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF! >>>> >>>> MAYBE the TERM "WWW". >>>> >>>> Rr >>> >>> There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals >>> inventing or co-inventing specific components of the Internet >>> and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a >>> core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have read all >>> about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, >>> switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web >>> pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as >>> "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is >>> said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people >>> who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared information, >>> like Ted Nelson. >>> >>> http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/ >>> >>> sdw >>> >> >
-- Stephen D. Williams sdw@lig.net stephendwilliams@gmail.com LinkedIn: http://sdw.st/in V:650-450-UNIX (8649) V:866.SDW.UNIX V:703.371.9362 F:703.995.0407 AIM:sdw Skype:StephenDWilliams Yahoo:sdwlignet Resume: http://sdw.st/gres Personal: http://sdw.st facebook.com/sdwlig twitter.com/scienteer
On 11/11/16 12:16 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 12:08 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 12:05 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 11:12 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
Specific and well-known historical record is obtuse? I don't think you know what that word means.
sdw
Yes I do. It means tangential... surrounded by blather...
Go look it up. You bury grams of information in pounds of trash talk.
No, it doesn't: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/obtuse
adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
sdw
Obtuse in a KIND OF ANGLE, STUPID.
Thanks for emphatically clarifying that you didn't know the relevant meaning. I would offer to use small words next time, but it is already a small word. Btw, even as a math term, it is used "adjectively". sdw
No wonder you don't make any sense most of the time an our eys all glaze over when you post. Your idiocy in using it adjectively, despite the fact that almost NO ONE uses it that way, to fend of criticism of your blather, IS A PRIME EXAMPLE of your Obtuseness, adjectively.
Rr
Rr
On 11/11/16 10:54 AM, Razer wrote:
Dude! You EXEMPLIFY "Obtuse".
On 11/11/2016 10:30 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 10:19 AM, Razer wrote: > > > > On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote: > >> "Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless. >> > > I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty > fucking obvious troll.
You said: > This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c a > ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I interpreted that as:
CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE ... [some implied connection] a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'.
I couldn't tell if you were referring to later implementations and use of things like KA9Q as somehow affecting the fact that he designed the protocol a decade or more earlier, or if you were saying that he was a ham radio operator on some team who took all the credit for a team effort as Linus (quite fairly) has. Since none of it seems very logical, and the former is ridiculous, I took my best guess at meaning.
Misunderstanding your poor communication is not trolling. Being obtuse then calling misunderstandings trolling is trolling.
> > Rr
sdw
> > > >> VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving >> networking problems that were learned from, but they were flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every patent >> depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is recognized as being a significant leap forward. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf >>> After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant professor >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted >>> research on packet network interconnection protocols and co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn. >> >> TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol problem that needed to be solved to build a working >> Internet. It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first released version. We all know what we mean by >> "Vint Cerf invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but what he did enabled everything else with an elegant >> solution. >> >> "Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so clueless. >> >> You're ideology is strange and not very useful. >> >> We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't >> value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to >> national telecoms with only centralized "security", for instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic >> principle way. >> >> sdw >> >> On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote: >>> >>> This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc b/c >>> a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'. >>> >>> It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A >>> stupid-ing down of the history of the internet. >>> >>> >>> On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote: >>>> On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. >>>>> >>>>> I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can >>>>> imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF! >>>>> >>>>> MAYBE the TERM "WWW". >>>>> >>>>> Rr >>>> >>>> There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of the >>>> Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of us have >>>> read all about it and a few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to Mosaic w/ web >>>> pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of anyone else who is >>>> said to have "invented the World Wide Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared >>>> information, like Ted Nelson. >>>> >>>> http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/ >>>> >>>> sdw >>>> >>> >> >
sdw
On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:24:59PM -0800, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 12:16 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 12:08 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 12:05 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 11:12 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
Specific and well-known historical record is obtuse? I don't think you know what that word means.
sdw
Yes I do. It means tangential... surrounded by blather...
Go look it up. You bury grams of information in pounds of trash talk.
No, it doesn't: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/obtuse
adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull. sdw
Also: From WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) [wn]: lacking intellectual acuity Sharp, concise facts, positions and arguments (demonstration of mental acuity), would counter the allegations of "You bury grams of information in pounds of trash talk", and such burying comes across as rather opposite of "communication acuity", thus "obtuse".
Obtuse in a KIND OF ANGLE, STUPID.
Thanks for emphatically clarifying that you didn't know the relevant meaning. I would offer to use small words next time, but it is already a small word. Btw, even as a math term, it is used "adjectively".
sdw
No wonder you don't make any sense most of the time an our eys all glaze over when you post. Your idiocy in using it adjectively, despite the fact that almost NO ONE uses it that way, to fend of criticism of your blather, IS A PRIME EXAMPLE of your Obtuseness, adjectively.
There are two primary causes I'm aware of leading to such, fluoridated hypothalamus arising from fluoride not eliminated or used elsewhere by the body, and vaccination damage at a young age (in particular, but not exclusively, vaccinations prior to 6 months of age). The mentation instrument (brain) is quite sensitive. It's sad, and yet to be properly publicized, but the science is out there. E.g. Japan learnt a hard lesson when they, under pressure from the WHO, reduced the start of their standard vaccination scheduled age from 2 years, to 0 days (like Australia and elsewhere) and had a lot of infant deaths in particular town (genetic sensitivity from memory), and promptly thereafter increased the age to 6 months to handle that particular problem (death, which according to Australia's government Vaccination handbook, is a known (potential) side effect of vaccination).
Last word on the subject putz. Obtuse means you approached a topic at some odd angle that others might not immediately comprehend. Saying it means 'somehow slow' does the full meaning an injustice. Obtuseness can be a good thing. "Thinking outside the box" can be 'obtuse' thinking. Illiterate schmuck. Stick to web definitions and stay illiterate. Rr On 11/11/2016 12:24 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 12:16 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 12:08 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 11/11/16 12:05 PM, Razer wrote:
On 11/11/2016 11:12 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
Specific and well-known historical record is obtuse? I don't think you know what that word means.
sdw
Yes I do. It means tangential... surrounded by blather...
Go look it up. You bury grams of information in pounds of trash talk.
No, it doesn't: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/obtuse
adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
sdw
Obtuse in a KIND OF ANGLE, STUPID.
Thanks for emphatically clarifying that you didn't know the relevant meaning. I would offer to use small words next time, but it is already a small word. Btw, even as a math term, it is used "adjectively".
sdw
No wonder you don't make any sense most of the time an our eys all glaze over when you post. Your idiocy in using it adjectively, despite the fact that almost NO ONE uses it that way, to fend of criticism of your blather, IS A PRIME EXAMPLE of your Obtuseness, adjectively.
Rr
Rr
On 11/11/16 10:54 AM, Razer wrote:
Dude! You EXEMPLIFY "Obtuse".
On 11/11/2016 10:30 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote: > On 11/11/16 10:19 AM, Razer wrote: >> >> >> >> On 11/11/2016 09:33 AM, Stephen D. Williams wrote: >> >>> "Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't >>> contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so >>> clueless. >>> >> >> I said or implied nothing of the sort. The implication is he >> took code he owned and open-sourced it. I think that's pretty >> fucking obvious troll. > > You said: >> This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP >> ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc >> b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a >> Torvalds'. > > I interpreted that as: > > CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP ALONE ... [some implied connection] a > ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did a Torvalds'. > > I couldn't tell if you were referring to later implementations > and use of things like KA9Q as somehow affecting the fact that > he designed the protocol a decade or more earlier, or if you > were saying that he was a ham radio operator on some team who > took all the credit for a team effort as Linus (quite fairly) > has. Since none of it seems very logical, and the former is > ridiculous, I took my best guess at meaning. > > Misunderstanding your poor communication is not trolling. Being > obtuse then calling misunderstandings trolling is trolling. > >> >> Rr > > sdw > >> >> >> >>> VC never said he developed TCP/IP alone, which is why I said >>> co-invented. Of course there were previous tries at solving >>> networking problems that were learned from, but they were >>> flawed and we no longer use any of them. Similarly, every >>> patent depends on the existence of prior ideas, but is >>> recognized as being a significant leap forward. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf >>>> After receiving his doctorate, Cerf became an assistant >>>> professor >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor#Assistant_professor> >>>> at Stanford University from 1972–1976, where he conducted >>>> research on packet network interconnection protocols and >>>> co-designed the DoD TCP/IP protocol suite with Kahn. >>> >>> TCP/IP solved, to a large extent, every core network protocol >>> problem that needed to be solved to build a working Internet. >>> It is amazing that very few changes were made since the first >>> released version. We all know what we mean by "Vint Cerf >>> invented the Internet." We know there was more to it, but >>> what he did enabled everything else with an elegant solution. >>> >>> "Did a Torvalds"? Are you now saying that Linus didn't >>> contribute anything significant either? Oh my. You are so >>> clueless. >>> >>> You're ideology is strange and not very useful. >>> >>> We all wish we could have contributed as centrally to the >>> Internet and related advances. But that doesn't mean we don't >>> value and appreciate those who did. It could have been much >>> worse in many ways. We could be paying packet charges to >>> national telecoms with only centralized "security", for >>> instance. We are very very lucky, and not in an anthropic >>> principle way. >>> >>> sdw >>> >>> On 11/11/16 9:00 AM, Razer wrote: >>>> >>>> This is exactly what I mean... CERF DID NOT DEVELOP TCPIP >>>> ALONE, hence all sorts of offshoots like TP-K inos, jnos etc >>>> b/c a ham radio operator who was on the tcipip dev team 'did >>>> a Torvalds'. >>>> >>>> It's like saying Wozniak and Gates developed personal >>>> computers. It's literally idiotic and historically vacant. A >>>> stupid-ing down of the history of the internet. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/10/2016 09:03 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote: >>>>> On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've seen this claim about a number of different people and >>>>>> you know? It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can >>>>>> imagine. One person inventing the WWW... ROTF! >>>>>> >>>>>> MAYBE the TERM "WWW". >>>>>> >>>>>> Rr >>>>> >>>>> There are a number of well-known cases of specific >>>>> individuals inventing or co-inventing specific components of >>>>> the Internet and protocols on it. TBL invented the World >>>>> Wide Web in a core and well-known specific sense. Most of >>>>> us have read all about it and a few of us were experiencing >>>>> it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and Archie to >>>>> Mosaic w/ web pages. Vint Cerf co-invented TCP/IP, commonly >>>>> summarized as "invented the Internet". I don't know of >>>>> anyone else who is said to have "invented the World Wide >>>>> Web". There were people who earlier suggested some kind of >>>>> linked shared information, like Ted Nelson. >>>>> >>>>> http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/ >>>>> >>>>> sdw >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
sdw
On Nov 11, 2016 11:34 PM, "Razer" <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
Last word on the subject putz.
<http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=putz> Oh God, 'putz' is a very innocent Brazilian slang! o.O It's just another way of saying 'poxa' for us, which means 'Oh man, Whoa, Geez, Gosh' and a lot of similar expressions. It's used only in Brazil, not in the other countries which Portuguese is the official language. <http://dictionary.reverso.net/portuguese-english/poxa>
Obtuse means you approached a topic at some odd angle that others might not immediately comprehend. Saying it means 'somehow slow' does the full meaning an injustice. Obtuseness can be a good thing. "Thinking outside the box" can be 'obtuse' thinking.
Different 'angles' of vision. OK, not usual, but it makes sense. :) <http://www.mathopenref.com/angleobtuse.html>
Illiterate schmuck. Stick to web definitions and stay illiterate.
Oh, Internet is _always_ a lovely teacher, nom nom nom! <3 I already knowed 'illiterate', but never used it. I am too illiterate to call someone illiterate, haha!! ;)
The most bizarre 'benefit' of CypherPunk list to foreign people like me is learning new bad words and adjetives almost all the weeks... :P Already knowed 'obtuse' because its writting and sound remembers a lot 'obtuso' in Portuguese. The word is used the same way here. It's a pity to learn that 'Schmuck' is a bad word. It's a cute word, sounds pretty good and it would be a great name to some food or my future pet. Meh! :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_(pejorative)
On 11/11/16 12:36 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
The most bizarre 'benefit' of CypherPunk list to foreign people like me is learning new bad words and adjetives almost all the weeks... :P
Already knowed 'obtuse' because its writting and sound remembers a lot 'obtuso' in Portuguese. The word is used the same way here.
It's a pity to learn that 'Schmuck' is a bad word. It's a cute word, sounds pretty good and it would be a great name to some food or my future pet. Meh! :(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_(pejorative) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_%28pejorative%29>
As with other words, it can be used endearingly to mostly flip the meaning: Have a beer, you poor schmuck. sdw
On Nov 11, 2016 5:41 PM, "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
As with other words, it can be used endearingly to mostly flip the meaning: Have a beer, you poor schmuck.
Thanks Stephen! :) When I was a child, I wanted to pet a Schmoo and when Razer wrote 'Schmuck', I thought it would be cute to have a Schmoo named Schmuck, hihi! ;) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmoo 'Schmuck Sandwich' sounded pretty yummy until I discover the word's meaning, haha!! ;D I always wanted to walking around with a fox since I read "The Little Prince" too. Now it's possible! :D http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/fyi-domesticated-foxes I just need to wait for unicorns, dragons and nyan cats now, hihi! ;)
On 11/11/16 12:54 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
On Nov 11, 2016 5:41 PM, "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net <mailto:sdw@lig.net>> wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_(pejorative) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_%28pejorative%29>
As with other words, it can be used endearingly to mostly flip the meaning: Have a beer, you poor schmuck.
Thanks Stephen! :)
You're welcome.
When I was a child, I wanted to pet a Schmoo and when Razer wrote 'Schmuck', I thought it would be cute to have a Schmoo named Schmuck, hihi! ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmoo
'Schmuck Sandwich' sounded pretty yummy until I discover the word's meaning, haha!! ;D
I always wanted to walking around with a fox since I read "The Little Prince" too. Now it's possible! :D
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/fyi-domesticated-foxes
I just need to wait for unicorns, dragons and nyan cats now, hihi! ;)
Just yesterday I read a note from someone who said that they assumed narwhals weren't real for 28 years, just realizing that they were mistaken. sdw
On Nov 11, 2016 5:58 PM, "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
Just yesterday I read a note from someone who said that they assumed
narwhals weren't real for 28 years, just realizing that they were mistaken. Narwhals are pretty beautiful. Never saw one, but I love to see whales. They are wonderful and are always visiting my country in the Summer. Now it's Spring, but they are already here. Travel time for me! :)
participants (5)
-
Cecilia Tanaka -
Mr Harkness -
Razer -
Stephen D. Williams -
Zenaan Harkness