On 07/16/2016 03:32 PM, Bastiani Fortress wrote:

An unbelievable night it was, yesterday :S I live in ankara the capital, and our house shook with jet shockwaves and bombs till 5 a.m. (could not get a proper sleep, obviously).

Things seem to have settled down today. It was a very, very immature and idiotically conducted coup attempt, mistakes were way too amateur, especially considering turkish army's expertise on how to "restore democracy" in its history.

First off, as a very brief intro to power struggle in turkey; there are secularist nationalists, which have been dominant ideologically in state and military through all republic's history. Then erdogan's islamist party won elections and in 14 years, first time in republic's history, has managed to purge secularists from army, police departments and judiciary system so extensively. Via show trials, planted evidences, false accusations, etc., they have put all secularist army personel in prison with accusations of coup attempts. Some of the officers were not very innocent (army is known to have ousted islamist govts before), but in overall, very few and immature real evidence was expanded by way more lies, used to purge almost all secularists in army.

Then there is a religious sect following the cleric fethullah gulen (who has been residing in pennsylvania for some time now). They have been hand in hand with erdogan in coming to power and all of secularist-purging operations all these years, they are also ideologically compatible with erdogan against the modern, pro-western secularists and other leftists. But eventually, they had come to a power struggle with erdogan and went in full scale war with hım with phone tapes disclosing massive corruption and hidden unlawful funds by erdogan and his circle. Accusations and detention operations have been exchanged and erdogan has come victorious from that too. (I will refer to gulen organisation as "cemaat" from now on.)

As any one with too much power and popularity, erdogan is now seeking to secure even more power (to form a total one man dictatorship with strong personality cult, to be precise) by changing the constitution and fundamentals of republic. He could not manage to gather enough political support (though he has a 45%-50% voter base) and deliberately made the country into a living hell, letting massive syrian refugee groups into country without proper preparations and security (some of which are isis affiliated); breaking the peace talks with kurd insurgents and provoking them by means of bloody military operations into their cities; subtly (and sometimes openly) supporting isis and not taking a strong stance against their terrorists inside the borders (he constantly cracked down on leftist students and intelligentsia whereas caught isis terrorists were being kept a few days under detention and easily released). We have been enduring frequent and horrible terror bombings at vital points in ankara and istanbul for about a year now. Most people, unfortunately (this is actually a classic, though) consolidating around him with extensive propaganda and with hopes that he will provide a strong leadership to stop this mayhem (with the irony, of course, that he is the one mostly responsible for all this bloodshed).

Now...

The coup attempt was done yesterday, without any apparent support whatsoever from opposition parties, civil organisations or foreign countries. They could not manage to seize erdogan or any other govt ofiicials. They could not manage to disrupt media or communications (except a coup declaration from the national channel), whereas erdogan managed to make a media coverage with teleconference, calling the people to get down on streets and protest the rolling tanks. Coup staff has bombed security and intelligence headquarters (they are very loyal to erdogan), and eventually the parliament building itself with jets. They made incredibly stupid moves, did not arrest any govt personel, could not prevent media's pro-erdogan propaganda calling people to streets, could not seize erdogan where even i myself could keep track of his presidential aircraft from air traffic websites. No leader for coup emerged, people could not even determine the ideology of the rebels, lest show any support. In the end, it was ousted. Here are the few theories for the coup attempt:

1- The coup was sincerely a coup, pulled off by still remaining few secularist generals veeery clumsily and failed.

2- It was conducted by cemaat generals, knowing that they will also be purged at the next defence counsel (poor translation?) in a desperate attempt to hold on to their last chances.

3- It was mit (intel office of turkey, reputed to be loyal to erdogan nowadays) falsely informing the generals with a secularist coup plan, where they were given missions that will create terror but not actually do any harm to erdogan's staff, claiming the critical jobs like arresting erdogan, seizing media, etc. were allocated to *some other general*. They took their parts with high hopes, only to discover they were deceived and suddenly left with blood on their hands with insufficient power to finish what they started. In desparation, they threw everything they have, bombing the assembly building and shooting around. This theory sounded like the most likely to me.

4- It was a total hoax by erdogan.

Whatever it was, we appear to be doomed now. Erdogan consolidated his power, he's going to arrest whoever he likes and nobody's going to question his rationale. His supporters have been brought down to streets and are now highly provoked, possibly leading to random violence and moblynching against minorities and opposers. He's gained great sympathy from other rightwing voters (he's been using an anti-coup rethoric all along his carreer, posing as the aggrieved of constant aggression from military staff as an elected entity himself). Calls to public to gather at the airport and guard erdogan were made from mosques all through the night with religious verses (wtf, really?! apparantly they like to depict this as a coup against their invisible friend up in the skies).

I am very worried for the countries' future, and for myself. This is the current situation. Any comments are welcome.

I REALLY appreciate the backgrounder Bastiani. My take on Gulen is he'd just as soon stay in Pennsylvania... Rr

7:08 PM, July 16, 2016, Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net <mailto:rayzer@riseup.net>>:

On 07/16/2016 04:40 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

Consider searching the web for: news Turkey coup d'etat

Someone old told me coup d'etat's are common for Turkey, the search terms are:

history Turkey coup d'etat

Does the NATO's Turkey have nukes?

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/turkey-secretly-working-nuclear-weapons-...

NOW, here's a 'conspiracy' theory...

A number of Turkish soldiers are saying they thought the coup was a drill... Of course You'd say that too if a firing squad or beheading was the other option.

https://twitter.com/AP/status/754295122104348672

ON THE OTHER HAND Erdogan could be seen to be setting up a fake coup to use as excuse to kill of dissenting elements in the Turkish Military who say he's trying to create an islamist state and use the puny, half-assed, undermined-from-the-git coup attempt by low-level officers (patsies to you) to cement his power, as dictator, who allows the supplying of ‪‎ISIS‬, and whose son owns the trucks that transport, the refineries that process, the ships that carry to market, oil stolen from Iraq and elsewhere, again, by ISIS.

Rr

-- You’re not from the Castle, you’re not from the village, you are nothing. Unfortunately, though, you are something, a stranger.

On 07/17/2016 11:02 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

This sounds compelling and conclusive. Let's see. Good news for Syrian nationalism, not good news for Kurdish project.

You've got to explain... HOW can an ISIS-enabling Islamist be "Good news for Syrian nationalism..."? Perhaps you didn't read what you wrote before hitting the send button", or perhaps you mean something quite different than what most people understand as "Good news". Rr

Hell Hath No Fury Like a Teflon Sultan

"For all practical purposes Erdogan now controls the Executive, the Legislative and the Judiciary – and is taking no prisoners to purge the military for good."

Pepe Escobar

http://sputniknews.com/columnists/20160717/1043158581/erdogan-turkey-coup.ht...

(Alt: http://russia-insider.com/en/hell-hath-no-fury-teflon-sultan/ri15659 )

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 09:33:02AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 07:24:42AM -0700, Rayzer wrote:

...

On 07/17/2016 11:02 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

This sounds compelling and conclusive. Let's see. Good news for Syrian nationalism, not good news for Kurdish project.

You've got to explain... HOW can an ISIS-enabling Islamist be "Good news for Syrian nationalism..."?

Because Syria is Russias very long term national partner, and Turkey is also making up with Russia. ISTM that Turkey will back off completely now and stop sending the jihadis to Syria.

Could be wrong of course, but I don't think Russia would accept rapproachment if Turkey keeps fighting Syria. I.e., Erdogan will have his hand in the Russian Turk Stream money pot, and will give up Syrian ISIS oil smuggling trade in return - he will make MUCH more money shipping Russian gas, then laundering ISIS oil. Just pragmatism.

More details: Behind the CIA's Desperate Turkey Coup Attempt http://journal-neo.org/2016/07/18/behind-the-cia-desperate-turkey-coup-attem... Erdogan Taunts Obama Over Coup Attempt in Turkey Erdogan will not forgive the Obama administration for leading him up the garden path on Syria, convincing him that Washington was leaving no stone unturned to overthrow the Assad regime http://atimes.com/2016/07/erdogan-taunts-obama-over-turkeys-coup-bid/

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 07:54:19PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:

As far as your other missive's link goes:

Erdogan Taunts Obama Over Coup Attempt in Turkey Erdogan will not forgive the Obama administration for leading him up the garden path on Syria, convincing him that Washington was leaving no stone unturned to overthrow the Assad regime http://atimes.com/2016/07/erdogan-taunts-obama-over-turkeys-coup-bid/

Erdogan's hand is ISIS, and they're already all over Europe thanks to the Russian AF rout,

Rayzer, seriously, are you serious? Which North Atlantic + European military bloc rhyming with poTATO is Turkey+Erdogan a member of again? (Hint: NATO.) And which country is Syria's primary military partner and long term ally again? (Hint: Russia.) And who was it that intended to overthrow Syria again? (Hint: USA.) And who was it that established ISIS, trained, funded and provided weapons to ISIS collaborators, provided military and logistical support to invade Syria and was loudly proclaiming for 4 years that "Assad must go"? (Hint: USA.) Did you not watch that interview/ talk by USA General Wesley Clark? Here it is again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8YtF76s-yM http://www.globalresearch.ca/we-re-going-to-take-out-7-countries-in-5-years-... (article links to the full Wesley Clark interview - recommended (I'd only seen the short most significant part before) Rayzer, you are parroting the establishment/ MSM position, is that position truthful? (Hint: it is a lie.) To remind ourselves of a few further facts: - The first refugee waves into Europe came from Afganistan and then Iraq. - The second refugee wave into Europe came from Libya. Until Qaddafi's murder at the hands of Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton, Libya essentially "captured" a lot of African refugees (look how many CIA ops and USA MIC wars are going on in Africa), and Libya provided a lot of employment, hope, accomodation and, relatively speaking, stability. Look at the immigration of actual refugees into Europe since Libya was "democratically liberated" by the West (USA, France, Germany, UK). - Only the third wave comes from Syria, and this wave of refugees into Europe from Syria began --way-- before Russia went into Syria to rescue her ally, only in November/December last year (Hint: 2015)! And this third wave has predominantly been from Turkey, not Syria - and Erdogan used it as blackmail for a few billion $Euro from Germany - many times Erdogan was blackmailing in fact. Turkey to Lesbos (Greek island) has been a main conduit for Syrian, Iraqi and Afghani refugees, for one example. If you look at the media though, you see a different story (the lie that is), you see all this "ooh, so much Muslim refugees into Europe, since BAD RUSSIA went to defend Syria!"

and they ARE mixed in with the refugee population, and they HAVE terrorized those refugees to not talk, and IF Erdogan doesn't get a BIG part of the Syrian Partition pie... Selah...

Since you seem to know details about Erdogan's deals with Russia, perhaps you care to share them with the rest of us?

On 07/19/2016 01:41 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 07:54:19PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:

...

the Russian AF rout,

PS, what does "AF" mean?

Afghanistan ;)

On 07/19/2016 04:24 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 04:10:44AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:

...

On 07/19/2016 01:41 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 07:54:19PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:

...

the Russian AF rout,

PS, what does "AF" mean?

Afghanistan ;)

Oh ok, well, my initial non thinking assumption that it was some military term proves how I should have asked first before jamming foot in mouth.

Now I have another question - what does Rayzer mean by "the Russian AF rout"?

Well, the US worked with SA to build Taliban, which kicked their ass. Using experience from Viet Nam, they basically wrote the book on asymmetric warfare. But of course, that came back to kick their ass when the same ideology and methods focused on foreign domination of Middle East. Even after 9/11 and Iraq, they tried that shit again in Syria. But WTF, maybe it's all part of some long AI game ;)

On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 08:20:58AM -0700, Rayzer wrote:

Common wisdom and most reliable reports say Turkey has US Nukes on it's soil for use against Russia just like they had Tora Bora-like installations to monitor Russian comms during the so-called 'cold war'. Tora Bora was also a sigint facility for that purpose. Iran had them too.

There was no danger whatsoever of the nukes being misappropriated by the coup plotters. They're even more US-oriented policy-wise than Erdogan's government ever was.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-nukes-turkey-risk-seizure-report-043432750.htm... ==== Dozens of US nuclear weapons stored at a Turkish air base near Syria are at risk of being captured by "terrorists or other hostile forces," a Washington think tank claimed Monday. ==== How many times similar stuff happened before?