Suggestion to list admins for warning/disclaimer on the web for new subscribers
The wikipedia page on cypherpunks have nothing to do with the current state of this list. History gets rewritten (from experience). I suggest after list discussion the list admins to put a warning on the list web page. Something along the lines of (clearly needs rewriting): ==== The list is not it used to be and has nothing to do with the wikipedia page. The list has spooks, paid trolls, other similar whores and possibly crackpots. Some of them post actively, others rarely. Their motivation might include: * social engineering * manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk * killing the list "What You See is NOT What You Get" Use common sense when reading or posting to the list. ====
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:23:48PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
The wikipedia page on cypherpunks have nothing to do with the current state of this list. History gets rewritten (from experience).
I suggest after list discussion the list admins to put a warning on the list web page. Something along the lines of (clearly needs rewriting):
==== The list is not it used to be and has nothing to do with the wikipedia page.
The list has spooks, paid trolls, other similar whores and possibly crackpots.
Some of them post actively, others rarely.
Their motivation might include: * social engineering * manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk * killing the list
"What You See is NOT What You Get"
Use common sense when reading or posting to the list. ====
Excellent suggestion - full disclosure and pre-forewarning is highly recommended. We have a duty of care to newcomers to make sure they don't get involved in anything they might want to not get involved in, and they ought be suitably forewarned :)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/03/2016 07:31 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:23:48PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
The list has spooks, paid trolls, other similar whores and possibly crackpots.
Some of them post actively, others rarely.
Their motivation might include: * social engineering * manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk * killing the list
"What You See is NOT What You Get"
Use common sense when reading or posting to the list. ====
Excellent suggestion - full disclosure and pre-forewarning is highly recommended. We have a duty of care to newcomers to make sure they don't get involved in anything they might want to not get involved in, and they ought be suitably forewarned :)
Such a warning qualifies as a marketing placement, whether intended or not, depicting the list as a fast and crazy scene where seriously weird people hang out: spooks, social engineers, crackpots, etc. Kind of like taking a wrong turn on a familiar street and walking straight into an X Files episode. "It could happen to you." :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXyvS7AAoJEECU6c5Xzmuq6KkH/3EsZ7ehf+CdejAzKrhsAVy3 qsJd31/ahi+BEHO3IHgYYBV7en35qmOzuNY2Nfdtg+nOnB7hDtO390Qb7JHTGbOJ rJAdrdPcVdart/TqN1NpN+owNuCjlddhjvDjtLFjsszceu4xBPNnc4ipti1wXsm5 DuK1P5PulTnc2GqYId9EtcHT13NfPueheQYyeuZbAjUKDS3gH/FajG/DWWtNGCak ONkBumLdcaRUTFZkrC1sd++Zxc/URHKWT4ww+Z7mdfdnQAO2lxg3CqOBwuUTW+NV 9UtvHDdvwNskqRqLe8RZNFK42NDbqpYuoVK0lVa8xALbcnS1niTU6WNfT23VOQA= =QA3I -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Dear Zenaan, Georgi: Good suggestions, thanks! I edited the list public HTML based on what's below, and also the nice Pastebin article that was posted here recently. https://lists.cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo - Greg On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 09:31:12PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:23:48PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
The wikipedia page on cypherpunks have nothing to do with the current state of this list. History gets rewritten (from experience).
I suggest after list discussion the list admins to put a warning on the list web page. Something along the lines of (clearly needs rewriting):
==== The list is not it used to be and has nothing to do with the wikipedia page.
The list has spooks, paid trolls, other similar whores and possibly crackpots.
Some of them post actively, others rarely.
Their motivation might include: * social engineering * manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk * killing the list
"What You See is NOT What You Get"
Use common sense when reading or posting to the list. ====
Excellent suggestion - full disclosure and pre-forewarning is highly recommended. We have a duty of care to newcomers to make sure they don't get involved in anything they might want to not get involved in, and they ought be suitably forewarned :)
Should the list really be forwarding new people to pastebin considering it sits behind Cloudflare? Or maybe the list really isn't what it used to be? oshwm. On 04/09/16 18:33, Greg Newby wrote:
Dear Zenaan, Georgi:
Good suggestions, thanks! I edited the list public HTML based on what's below, and also the nice Pastebin article that was posted here recently.
https://lists.cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo
- Greg
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 09:31:12PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:23:48PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
The wikipedia page on cypherpunks have nothing to do with the current state of this list. History gets rewritten (from experience).
I suggest after list discussion the list admins to put a warning on the list web page. Something along the lines of (clearly needs rewriting):
==== The list is not it used to be and has nothing to do with the wikipedia page.
The list has spooks, paid trolls, other similar whores and possibly crackpots.
Some of them post actively, others rarely.
Their motivation might include: * social engineering * manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk * killing the list
"What You See is NOT What You Get"
Use common sense when reading or posting to the list. ====
Excellent suggestion - full disclosure and pre-forewarning is highly recommended. We have a duty of care to newcomers to make sure they don't get involved in anything they might want to not get involved in, and they ought be suitably forewarned :)
On 09/04/2016 10:37 AM, oshwm wrote:
Should the list really be forwarding new people to pastebin considering it sits behind Cloudflare?
Pastebin is using Cloudflare? Sigh... add another to the shit list. Rr
Or maybe the list really isn't what it used to be?
oshwm.
On 04/09/16 18:33, Greg Newby wrote:
Dear Zenaan, Georgi:
Good suggestions, thanks! I edited the list public HTML based on what's below, and also the nice Pastebin article that was posted here recently.
https://lists.cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo
- Greg
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 09:31:12PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:23:48PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
The wikipedia page on cypherpunks have nothing to do with the current state of this list. History gets rewritten (from experience).
I suggest after list discussion the list admins to put a warning on the list web page. Something along the lines of (clearly needs rewriting):
==== The list is not it used to be and has nothing to do with the wikipedia page.
The list has spooks, paid trolls, other similar whores and possibly crackpots.
Some of them post actively, others rarely.
Their motivation might include: * social engineering * manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk * killing the list
"What You See is NOT What You Get"
Use common sense when reading or posting to the list. ====
Excellent suggestion - full disclosure and pre-forewarning is highly recommended. We have a duty of care to newcomers to make sure they don't get involved in anything they might want to not get involved in, and they ought be suitably forewarned :)
On Sun, Sep 04, 2016 at 10:55:24AM -0700, Razer wrote:
On 09/04/2016 10:37 AM, oshwm wrote:
Should the list really be forwarding new people to pastebin considering it sits behind Cloudflare?
Pastebin is using Cloudflare?
Sigh... add another to the shit list.
Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't realize it either. It's a pretty good little page, though, and I didn't know about it until it was mentioned here last week. The page: http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5 It turns out that the content is available on a few other sites, including Cryptome. So, I linked to it there, instead: https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm For those who enjoy a good read on some of these topics, you might enjoy the WWII-era "Simple Sabotage Field Manual." CIA released it in 2008: https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2012-featured-st... Project Gutenberg did proofreading etc.: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26184 In fiction, many of those techniques were rediscovered (e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey_Wrench_Gang). Likewise in real life (e.g., Weyler's Greenpeace, https://books.google.ca/books?id=M1GW445y2n4C&redir_esc=y and http://earthmanifesto.com/). In forums like Cypherpunks, we enjoy some of the Simple Sabotage techniques daily. I especially appreciate the demands to provide full evidence and citations to any claims. Also the indigenent objections that COINTELPRO techniques are ancient history, and no such thing happens any more. - Greg
Or maybe the list really isn't what it used to be?
oshwm.
On 04/09/16 18:33, Greg Newby wrote:
Dear Zenaan, Georgi:
Good suggestions, thanks! I edited the list public HTML based on what's below, and also the nice Pastebin article that was posted here recently.
https://lists.cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo
- Greg
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 09:31:12PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:23:48PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
The wikipedia page on cypherpunks have nothing to do with the current state of this list. History gets rewritten (from experience).
I suggest after list discussion the list admins to put a warning on the list web page. Something along the lines of (clearly needs rewriting):
==== The list is not it used to be and has nothing to do with the wikipedia page.
The list has spooks, paid trolls, other similar whores and possibly crackpots.
Some of them post actively, others rarely.
Their motivation might include: * social engineering * manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk * killing the list
"What You See is NOT What You Get"
Use common sense when reading or posting to the list. ====
Excellent suggestion - full disclosure and pre-forewarning is highly recommended. We have a duty of care to newcomers to make sure they don't get involved in anything they might want to not get involved in, and they ought be suitably forewarned :)
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:20:38 -0700 Greg Newby <gbnewby@pglaf.org> wrote:
In forums like Cypherpunks, we enjoy some of the Simple Sabotage techniques daily. I especially appreciate the demands to provide full evidence and citations to any claims.
Oh OK. So go ahead and provide them? Seems like the responsible thing to do. If you are claiming that some posters, out of the rather small number of posters here, work for (mostly I guess) the US government, then it would be useful to know who they are. So that we can in turn know what the sabotage looks like. I do have my list of course. It includes rayzer, mirimir, and grarpamp (and grarpamp's sockpuppet, now defunct, coderman).
Also the indigenent objections that COINTELPRO techniques are ancient history, and no such thing happens any more.
- Greg
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 10:33:11 -0700 Greg Newby <gbnewby@pglaf.org> wrote:
Dear Zenaan, Georgi:
Good suggestions, thanks! I edited the list public HTML based on what's below, and also the nice Pastebin article that was posted here recently.
"Sabotage, COINTELPRO and other forms of subversion or attack are often observed." So you have a fair amount of clear examples of all that. Please link them?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/04/2016 04:51 PM, juan wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 10:33:11 -0700 Greg Newby <gbnewby@pglaf.org> wrote:
Dear Zenaan, Georgi:
Good suggestions, thanks! I edited the list public HTML based on what's below, and also the nice Pastebin article that was posted here recently.
"Sabotage, COINTELPRO and other forms of subversion or attack are often observed."
Hum. Examples of sabotage would be interesting to see. Would that include posting links to live HTML-borne exploits against browsers or MUAs to the list, links to sites offering trojan installers (i.e. Sourceforge or worse), or jokes like advice to do "sudo rm -rf ./*"? One normally thinks of sabotage as attacks against physical or digital assets. COINTELPRO was a Hoover-era FBI political warfare program, grounded in the proposition that U.S. Civil Rights, Anti-War and radical political activities in general were 5th column operations sponsored and controlled by communist States. Calling today's U.S. domestic political warfare programs COINTELPRO is reminiscent of Conspiracy Theorist wannabes who call notional present-day Illuminati sponsored mind control operations MKULTRA (and spell it wrong).
So you have a fair amount of clear examples of all that. Please link them?
+10 I seem to be missing the real fun. Lemme see the sabotage and COINTELPRO content. Also, grammar nazi time: "misdirection and control of a internet forum." (vs. "an Internet forum") Overall the disclaimer seems redundant to me, and sounds too much like a script kiddie brag. Posting it as a sign out front is something a party interested in "dilution, misdirection and control" would do to suggest that a forum is sponsored and populated by teenage poseurs. An abbreviated form like this would be more than sufficient IMO: "The Cypherpunks list is an unmoderated forum. Prospective subscribers should be aware that the tenor of conversation is often contentious, offensive, and always politically incorrect. New subscribers are encouraged to observe the conversation before posting: Lurk before you leap." :o) Steve Kinney -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXzLG3AAoJEECU6c5Xzmuq2mwH/jkeUWTA0gGN9oqRqlg6j27P bBTxmL1yEL4RR8pBX6sKe3ScSm3VA2luEjE4BymX8ykZjB9XHcAJueapCHcVJrxt sYQrIj7m4ZbiD3B/GFdi4GzV90JxRbcJY0zlHxOyIq/TVO1q3WZPyku4BsMJkWZE VTMTuYckBt2hdcdfTt/4kP8LvJNYu1y1l2gvEBj0l2evstvnrIdgZ6I7SudybBlN WyzHy8Nz+SXgY1+aBNh+8DMSAFWGT9EnFDHpxdVZ4Q9odus0/BWWrOFu9/eI1CeA ynORqsP1sEYGqEEMn8DMkShQOHsenrK9hRB2f6laUy1uDrJFX4NbdAdX87E8udY= =bRsx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 09/04/2016 04:43 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:
I seem to be missing the real fun. Lemme see the sabotage and COINTELPRO content.
COINTELPRO was the NYPD "Bureau of Special Services" aka Red Squad getting my name off the blotter after a guerrilla theater protest (Ted K shortly after Chappaquidick and NY Senator Abe Ribicoff) at NYU's Queens campus and using the file cabinet/phonecall/whoknowswheretheygotitfrom info to threaten my dad's US Army/NASA security clearance. What fun. Everyone should experience that sort of institutional attack because they're a 16 year old antiwar protester.... Captain Finnegan's thugs (We called him "The Silver Fox b/c hair color and he looked a lot like whathisname from the A Team... really.) were already at the demos photographing protesters and singling people out for 'special treatment'. The unit was eventually disbanded after grand jury hearings about it's abuses. Right. Sure. The group I was involved in ended up having three or four police agents, informers, freelancing john birchers... including the group's photographer. One of them was the snitch who put Sam Melville in Attica. COINTELPRO was a REAL Barrel o' laughs... Unless ofc you were Fred Hampton, or a number of other folks the US government simply had assassinated with local police assistance and firepower. Yeah... Sure ... "the real fun" Rr
On 09/04/2016 04:51 PM, juan wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 10:33:11 -0700 Greg Newby <gbnewby@pglaf.org> wrote:
Dear Zenaan, Georgi:
Good suggestions, thanks! I edited the list public HTML based on what's below, and also the nice Pastebin article that was posted here recently.
"Sabotage, COINTELPRO and other forms of subversion or attack are often observed."
Hum. Examples of sabotage would be interesting to see. Would that include posting links to live HTML-borne exploits against browsers or MUAs to the list, links to sites offering trojan installers (i.e. Sourceforge or worse), or jokes like advice to do "sudo rm -rf ./*"? One normally thinks of sabotage as attacks against physical or digital assets.
COINTELPRO was a Hoover-era FBI political warfare program, grounded in the proposition that U.S. Civil Rights, Anti-War and radical political activities in general were 5th column operations sponsored and controlled by communist States. Calling today's U.S. domestic political warfare programs COINTELPRO is reminiscent of Conspiracy Theorist wannabes who call notional present-day Illuminati sponsored mind control operations MKULTRA (and spell it wrong).
So you have a fair amount of clear examples of all that. Please link them?
+10
I seem to be missing the real fun. Lemme see the sabotage and COINTELPRO content.
Also, grammar nazi time: "misdirection and control of a internet forum." (vs. "an Internet forum")
Overall the disclaimer seems redundant to me, and sounds too much like a script kiddie brag. Posting it as a sign out front is something a party interested in "dilution, misdirection and control" would do to suggest that a forum is sponsored and populated by teenage poseurs.
An abbreviated form like this would be more than sufficient IMO:
"The Cypherpunks list is an unmoderated forum. Prospective subscribers should be aware that the tenor of conversation is often contentious, offensive, and always politically incorrect. New subscribers are encouraged to observe the conversation before posting: Lurk before you leap."
:o)
Steve Kinney
On 09/04/2016 08:28 PM, Razer wrote:
On 09/04/2016 04:43 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:
I seem to be missing the real fun. Lemme see the sabotage and COINTELPRO content.
COINTELPRO was a REAL Barrel o' laughs... Unless ofc you were Fred Hampton, or a number of other folks the US government simply had assassinated with local police assistance and firepower.
Yeah... Sure ... "the real fun"
My point - such as it was: COINTELPRO != forum trolling. Besides being a thing of the past, since replaced by many other programs with similar objectives and methods. Anyone who may be subject to that kind of State attention either knows very well that everything they expose on the public Internet is known to their adversaries at once, or has already done as much damage to themselves by "saying too much" as they are going to by saying more. :o/
On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
Overall the disclaimer seems redundant to me, and sounds too much like
Yay, warnings, now everybody is protected, safe, educated, insured, firewalled, nothing bad will ever happen, the world is good, and $prophets and list benevolents will martyr themselves as shields. Every new computer, car and coffee cup should have one too. Warm fuzzies. Sounds more like an apology and permission for trolls. That or redundant, who knows, worth a laugh, yes probably.
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 14:23:48 +0300 Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com> wrote:
* social engineering * manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk * killing the list
So which one of those categories are you in Georgi? More than one? Feel free to add one that describes you.
participants (9)
-
Geneviève Lajeunesse -
Georgi Guninski -
grarpamp -
Greg Newby -
juan -
oshwm -
Razer -
Steve Kinney -
Zenaan Harkness