On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 12:39:00 PM PDT, таракан wrote:

Reminds me of the Iridium project ... a great success ... Your criticism is very misleading.  Iridium   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_satellite_constellation   was conceived 'late', 1988, and was completed far later:  2002.  And that was nearly 20 years after commercial cellular phone service began.  And the economic (not technical) failure of one satellite-communication system in no way suggests that there won't be a valid market for data today, and in the future. By and large, the competition (such as it now is) for Starlink has ALREADY been created.  That's far from the situation for Iridium's telephone system in 1988.  That produces a world of difference between these two business models.  

The problem is that it is impossible to maintain so many satellites, too costly for a small interest. I'm sure that's what the pre-existing operators of commercial internet service would want SpaceX to believe.  I suspect that SpaceX has thoroughly modeled the market and technical costs.  

Doesn't really seem a novelty to me, I used to access ASTRA to get internet for many times. Of course as one can imagine it's completely anonymous ... lol ... Sounds a bit like YAGNI, "You aren't gonna need it" syndrome.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it      Or NIH (Not Invented Here)   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here#:~:text=Not%20invented%20her....     >Would be more impressive to see real space travel... Waving the shiny object. I've been following the concept of the "Space Elevator" for many years.  I was quite amazed, well over 10 years ago, to see supposedly-intelligent people working on how to build a "climber" and supply power to it, when a far more straightforward system would be  to create a pulley-implemented system that merely held onto a rising (or falling) rope:  So, the motive power would be supplied by a motor on the ground, whose weight was completely irrelevant. But some people are just stupid.  

           Jim Bell

On Friday, July 17, 2020, 01:48:26 AM PDT, таракан wrote:

I doubt that someone in a country - X - will be able to access Starlink without the usual 'KYC" procedures...Will there be a single place of registration - online ? I doubt it. I think Starlink will have no right to provide access to citizens of country X  You are writing like a Statist.  "...right to provide access to citizens of country X" ???  I'd say, instead, "ability to provide access to people on the surface of the earth".     There, that's better.   unless going via registered/accredited national operator Y from country X, which will apply any existing restrictive policy from country X.

Starlink will never allow a "wild" access to internet by satellite to anyone in the world. That's called a "prediction".  Predictions can be right.  But predictions can be wrong.   Starlink is brought to you by the same guy that brought the wonderful PayPal - the 'family' oriented electronic wallet.  Does PayPal allow "wild" international money transfers? Of course not, better using Western Union. 

There are laws about money exchanges, and where it is necessary to have physical, in-country representatives, perhaps laws must be obeyed.  (Or, at least, its harder to get around the "laws must be obeyed" rule.  As we all know, digital cash (like Bitcoin) do an excellent job of getting around "the laws".  

PayPal bends to any national regulation in terms of financial control and so it will be the same for Starlink,,,

NK may not be an example but many countries seem more to turn like NK than the opposite...

Creating a worldwide net using SW radio is possible but difficult. Need to build different radio systems and also to create efficient cryptography for them. They will never allow to play "online video games" but they can be used for the transfer of documenttaion, books, transfer orders.... scanned piece of arts, 

If that's practical, it will occur...in parallel to other systems.   Musk said that StarLink / quote: " is “designed to run real-time, competitive video games,” I think that instead, in context, StarLink is CAPABLE of running real-time, competitive video games.  In other words, due to its low-latency, StarLink WILL allow the use of "real-time, competitive video games." "I'm not sure musk is aware that real-Time video games would imply such games runs inside an operating system which is provided with a real-time kernel, but the point is that  StarLink IS the TOY there :-) Why is "toy" significant?  Manufacturing processes can be turned into toys.  During the mid-late 1960's and early '70s, 'vacuum forming' and vinyl molding were both turned into 'toys'.  I was aware, at that time, that these 'toys' were based on real manufacturing processes.  

Imagine a group of people having only limited resources, able to access factories to produce "basic" electronic components ... they can build SW ground stations. They cannot build a StarLink ground station and they cannot produce or event repair a 3D printer which may be even more complicated.

I don't expect such people to be able to construct a printed circuit board, populate it with components, and test it.  But the size of the as-manufactured PCB should be small enough to allow smuggling into most nations.  

What is the model? USA shining like a sun and bringing its light to every far remote territory of earth?

This doesn't have to have anything specific to do with "USA".  Yes, Elon Musk does a lot of his work in "USA", but that's not a limitation.  Musk got "approval" from USA to launch a constellation of satellites.  

I would rather see USA as a death star, bringing death and chaos to every corner of our planet. 

Then I suppose we must disagree.  I don't think of this as a product of the USA:  In principle, a large-enough company could accomplish this, limited mainly by  the ability to launch satellites.  It's been a long time since USA and USSR had some sort of monopoly on launching satellites.  Today, the ability to do from ships pretty much breaks that monopoly to pieces:  These launches can occur from virtually any latitude, which is the important thing from the point of view of creating a specific orbit.   (One of the unfortunate compromises made in creating ISS (International Space Statiion) is that it had to be "reachable" from both Cape Canaveral and Baikonur, which is in Kazakhstan.  The high latitude, about 45.5 degrees North, makes it harder (uses more energy) to achieve the same orbit as are achievable from Cape Canaveral, the latter being at about 28.5 degrees North.)

A real alternative worldwide internet system should not be based on the possibility to 'smuggle" technology from the USA to other territories  I DON'T say it DEPENDS on those things.  It's just that even where there are somewhat authoritarian states, they won't be able to keep StarLink out. or to depend on a central commercial operator which will provide worldwide internet like it provided worldwide payments ... with PayPal... It would be possible for people to finance (pay for, even if that is necessary) free-for-the-user Internet service in authoritarian states.  

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 09:34:13PM +0000, таракан wrote:

I still think that if - for example - cypherpunks (or others) would like independent access to internet, they would need to use a technology that they understand from A to Z and more important that they can manufacture themselves.

Using internet by satellite would require the ability to manufacture satellites - which is not simple but doable and the ability to launch them in low orbit - which, with the technology of mini-launcher is also doable, while requiring a significant budget. Ground stations can also be manufactured... same story, hard to produce by small groups of people.

On the contrary Short-Waves based data communication do not require complicated digital processing and a ground station can be produced with relatively little equipment. Ground stations can be mobile enough not to stay at same place, thus avoiding detection.

I am unsure anyway we would really need satellites to bring internet to the world, since internet is already everywhere, in my opinion, we may need such satellites for interplanetary communications.

We're in 2020, the world space fleet is populated with ... a few Soyuz based solely on USSR technology (not bad but clearly slightly limited by now) and one or two (not sure how much) Space-X Dragon... (+ all the secondary stuff: space probes,... )

As for spaceships able of interplanetary travel, the fleet is ... 0

so... all that Starlink story is a marketing stunt like always.

Stap 1, folks ought feed themselves without dependence on The Man. Fail on this, and we shall remain slaves.

He might even offer the SpaceX internet service for free in some extreme cases, such as Iran, Cuba, North Korea. (the tiny ground-stations might have to be smuggled in.)

Assuming the priority of North Koreans people is to get high-speed internet from satellite may be a bit bold... I would rather believe their priority now is more getting money for food, healthcare etc...

Also, how much would cost a ground station? How they would get access codes ? And How they would 'smuggle' and 'hide' such expensive ground stations This is totally absurd for a country like North Korea for instance. Also , again, There exists already many internet by satellite access, fully bidirectional so what that would change ? Besides, since Iran and North Korea are under heavy embargo , I do not see how Starlink could be granted the right to provide internet to such territories. Control is easy ... The uplink of the ground station provides good satellite geolocation (DTO.DFO,...) I would rather believe in a net of SW radio using data transmission (like PSK-31 and others) . Slow indeed but the ground sttaion can be realtively easily manufactured by engineers with local resources and that can be totally operated without governements.

On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 00:52:05 +0000 (UTC) jim bell wrote:

Yes, I realize that North Korea would be an especially hard case, but I don't hang by entire thesis on NK alone.  

you only mentioned NK and two more targets of the child murdering US scumbags : iran and cuba.

As I previously said, I merely mentioned NK.  Don't try to disprove the entire concept because you think there is a single region on earth that this project won't "work" in. 

you only mentioned 3 'regions' for you US military nazis to attack.

...

Besides, since Iran and North Korea are under heavy embargo , I do not see how Starlink could be granted the right to provide internet to such territories.

so now you're backpedalling on your US GOVT PROPAGANDA?

I guess you're missing the entire point.  With the Starlink system, they wouldn't have to "seek the right to provide internet to such territories".They would simply provide the services, period.  No approval would be sought, or received, or respected.  

course not, you're just repeating it. You want the US military(musk) to wage electronic war against cuba, NK and iran.

I agree that there is hardly anything to expect from Musk. In the USA, one does not become such a powerful person without having strong political ties with the Gvnt and power in place. Musk may have some dreams and some talent, I agree on this but knowing the character and how he made money from payPal which is a real piece of shit, which was sold billions of $ to eBay - another mega piece of shit - I have few hopes anything can be achieved by Musk that could benefit 'mankind" in general. Anything that would provide alternative communications to people on earth should be affordable and ran by people / organizations which are not greedy or corrupt (good luck to find any !) ... well maybe that will be created... actually I am part of a group which is trying to build a free Short-Wave radio network for data transmissions using cryptography, sort of 'survival internet'... without any Musk behind. We really may need that to keep our human knowledge. Some may know the project library genesis ... it's an attempt to survive what may be a Barbary apocalypse, a dark numerical age with a worldwide power taking suddenly control of everything everywhere and sending us to High-Security jails for the rest of our lives.

so going back to your comments on ideology, notice how cypherpunks are > just technocrats whose main interest is 'technology', not freedom.

Everybody wants money and a piece of the cake... Money is the key aspect here... PayPal used by 99% of the slaves- freelancers to get their miserable payments... Freedom is the essence...

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so going back to your comments on ideology, notice how cypherpunks are > just technocrats whose main interest is 'technology', not freedom.

Everybody wants money and a piece of the cake... Money is the key aspect here... PayPal used by 99% of the slaves- freelancers to get their miserable payments... Freedom is the essence...

Well said.

Ironically, this drill lockdown is leaving a lot of folks with a lot more time to conteplate their lives.

When shelter, food and water is handled, we have the space to find ourselves, to make decisions like "what sort of communication network would be simple and useful between small communities", and "where would we like to travel, or need to travel, and how would we like to do that".

Covid, for many at least, is a temporary halt to the Human Race.

My analysis is that there are 2 'Covid' viruses: 1) a 'strong' flu - a biological virus - which results from a combination of factors, I think mainly pollution. 2) a massive hysteria, collective paranoia and coordinated fear which is by far much more dangerous than the 'biological' virus. If our human society would be a network of machines, then that 'second Covid virus' would be a computer virus. In 2) what is striking is the leading role of 'the police' and other similar fascist and coercive powers. People are getting beaten, fined, arrested ... or even killed because they dare to go in the street or refuse to wear a mask. Which mask is probably generally useless by the way ... note the role of the media in the amplification of that fear: "That man went to a party and mocked Covid-19, now he's dead", just like if it was a punishment from god, at least from the god of Covid-19, like if Covid-9 was the punishment for our crimes and the mask the redemption, the police being the ministers of the 'cult'... So what is hidden behind this madness? Nothing good? A collective madness... something sinister which is just starting. Today we must get a mask to get food, tomorrow we will have to show our anus to get the same. This will never end. It is a great crime than to refuse to sell food or healthcare to someone because that person 'does not wear a mask'. Can we organize ourselves against that ? Creating groups? Again preppers are just the base, they lack 99% of what a structured parallel society would need to develop itself.