-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/13/2015 11:01 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 03:20:15PM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

For those who have not yet read of this, it's a must to comprehend. Lest ye doubt humans are rightly labelled 'sheep'.

Call me a crank, but I am against the sheeple.

Sheeple are major cause of trouble, electing current so called "establishment".

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

When I see or hear the word 'sheeple' I think about how successful our adversaries have been in dividing the people they prey on into mutually hostile factions, each of which blames the actions of their common enemy on the others. Populist and reformist politics ends and mindless compliance begins when people decide that they are categorically superior to those who don't happen to belong to their own gang, and start speaking and acting on that basis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWbfdvAAoJEDZ0Gg87KR0Ljj4QAJXExc10dUhiqltAFOAYjGt5 D/m5kusEJbXt5IJ/bDMaPWPkYH4CVklggt9frOMlKLY70cNfsF4Mkvpnep9osA/u lJv48dOplnHRKm1zcIra/z8/p3y04iFe54QCNPvQTM/9ydIcy4xe6rAgqxkMDPBl /rePWM75Iws9xIUrpgvImMzi0piyHfBmAaB2LVRtnsyObIMTdyf4kZmdFWBYunbH IFYQwXEj/pin6QbKs2LW79M8Pj1fTdToC46aS1hiFHPEl1JDoEsJCKGXBwzd8Af7 rcWYDJXu8k86fH+snt2tiHEX7D0g7W1a2iUeMtrYNX+Rs0tO9opaXq9/VUyrj2mr nRo+JQozQB+3aTraA5rTBJXeE6dEDlf9QPRCS2P/rnNhBjRzg1CkfCMJyYf0lb9A ZRrjVfuayQsh4aHJ5KHcXHuqh40+224OpLtHG/pgAlWP0OT1o1HrvA/+6TH+L4re PhjUuhwWIGKEbeaLOVEe6a2Ecj98uIZtm5FQMSSzKhCLe1Ym6XhVN/jtL1GBJDPy +uauIBvR+Uow0XpGWPeQKHGRmrm++NqviWfwfAOFuhq24JEha1vmzUbWaBtvQ/hH T4bKVT6r7rU7NKFh0PfWkTdAZu+zO19+iPiSLm6c+zcGNkvsbxHCAR2lOO6AbfBg 7ia5feZt6O1+HuMpOs2D =rmXF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/14/2015 12:26 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On 12/13/15, Steve Kinney wrote:

...

On 12/13/2015 11:01 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 03:20:15PM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

For those who have not yet read of this, it's a must to comprehend. Lest ye doubt humans are rightly labelled 'sheep'.

Call me a crank, but I am against the sheeple.

Sheeple are major cause of trouble, electing current so called "establishment".

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

When I see or hear the word 'sheeple' I think about how successful our adversaries have been in dividing the people they prey on into mutually hostile factions, each of which blames the actions of their common enemy on the others.

I agree that the wording I chose for the subject could be seen as divisive, yet is confronting since it suggests a specific target, which target turns out to be "most people/sheeple".

The divisive part is not good, but also not intended.

The "we need to be alert to reality - this is big/bad" is intended and I think is essential to assessing anything sane. I recall reading that Wikipedia article a few years ago, yet it had no less impact upon me, on my second reading.

Give people roles to play in an inherently violent system, and whoever those people are, they will begin to do violence. That's a general case that scales all the way up to what happens when "honest" politicians are given a representational democracy to run. The best part about the Milgram experiments was that a significant number of volunteers dropped out early. Pity it's a bit late to send them anarchist literature and encourage them to turn out for public events. :D

...

Populist and reformist politics ends and mindless compliance begins when people decide that they are categorically superior to those who don't happen to belong to their own gang, and start speaking and acting on that basis.

No, not the compliance bit at least. Just because I speak arrogantly, refused to wear a school uniform for -years- in a row and use vehemence and confronting language when I communicate, does NOT mean I am the cause of those "sheeple" who be compliance with mindless authority!

You can't be seriously suggesting as much, surely.

I was thinking more along the lines of "rebel as you are told," the oldest scam in the book. As a general case, the most productive way for a well entrenched ruling class to attack people who dislike authority figures is to provide them with models of rebellion that do not work: Mass market propaganda to the rescue.

In fact "sheep" is about as apt as it gets when describing compliant (to arbitrary authority) people. And the Migram experiments show that humans by an overwhelming majority, are in fact sheep, even in the face of their own stress, their own tears, inner conflict, emotional pain - they -still- fucking comply with arbitrary (worse, despotic!!) authority!

"We humans" are so woefully inadequate to the task of complying with our own conscience or inner sense of right and wrong, and so woefully tied to compliance with external authority, it is shocking, embarrassing, upsetting and yes, confronting.

But fuck, don't shoot the messenger!

That was never my intention. I just have a strong aversion to the 'sheeple' paradigm, which I do consider a core component of "rebel as you are told" propaganda.

Put your confronting reaction to something constructive - try to figure out how to simply and expediently educate those you come across to counter this problem - if you have actual successes, please share those, as that may go some significant way to enlightening us all on how to handle this very confronting problem.

I have had occasional success. The key concept is to avoid trying to move people all the way from their current position to the one you would prefer them to have at one go. Tailor the message to the audience and try to move them ONE step in the direction you want to see them move. Of course, don't neglect to preach to the choir: How else will they be able to get on the same page and put on a decent show? I have been pushing this packet of books for around a year now, and from time to time it seems to have been well received: It's a course in remedial politics, intended to fill basic gaps in people's information about how populist a.k.a. anarchist politics actually works: http://pilobilus.net/strategic_conflict_docs_intro.html

Another shot to prod you along a bit further:

Those who are compliant with despotic external authority in the face of their own inner conscience of right and wrong, ought be regarded as other/ outer/ "them", and treated with extreme caution!

"Those" sheep happens to be about 60% to 90% of everyone! You wanna sweep -that- under the carpet of your politically correct boat?

The presumption that people who are notably compliant with illegitimate authority have a "conscience" and fixed notions of right and wrong is questionable. Those who comply most eagerly include sociopathic personalities and people who are all to easily led due to other disorders. The "60% to 90%" cover a spectrum from grudging, minimal compliance to elaborate and even competitive compliance, typically related to the degree that their individual income and social status benefit from a show of compliance. But as the gap between rewards promised and rewards delivered continues to widen, and the violent excesses of our rulers become more and more obvious, compliance will continue to decline. This creates a growth market for populist political agitators - a market that opponents and supporters of authoritarian rule are already competing to capture. Politics is about power: Who has it, who doesn't, and how these groups interact. The object of political activity is to obtain and exercise power, toward whatever ends one chooses. Political models and strategies that actually work in this context are "correct" while those that do not work are "incorrect." There is a time and place for everything, but rarely a time when elitism, or driving wedges between groups who have political enemies in common with oneself, is "correct" in a functional sense. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWbml8AAoJEDZ0Gg87KR0LY5cQAOFTNPTyJs/Kf9eNj4zkGgLe AD3Q+1eW9jDrEBuIb54kjD1LvI9JaFHCIO4mo8iUXfDgFhNLCNEr5FU8brJlz4QW Qbe7XuLfhEzVtQP1fY5jOy+/p96vcUYvK1D1RlOqxcM1C4iLYW/QxJsc8YVto5lL 82Y12V+YEqqF8UgvXMJhFyQUcYxbOKovbmy0Y5afL4xtqMRxbE/DlkY+5WS4xoSG aPO+hRxfoJszBRSowVp/WVodHWBnkFJt3dYdOOJZiWSMiGoxqptlYdy++jndvccN YfTIx1uxx+CZKYF0LPsC61fY8SkjWnfO+DTcFYPXP0WHwBmRo4R0Q3wsapZhIoqA Ura3MmDyy/hmTevzxyoHeKSMd7TQoP4jZKb/dS2NyvPGZWowwQ7FvfsIa9JlJkkX kffMZvqUMWmUrQUID87ueCWE7KA5rhzrc2ZublDBAfr4mUbbylUY+IgLc4gO/vnp FP78KlMPyqP92RwC1mY8bI9u4w74Ujq+c2sHcG+wNvaL0uoyfj55lDSVGyoDQ2Pm 4qEv/J9/ELey1tOKkE9hHvyHJPpiw/T/qs5+P+9WMiSRUGM4BDiTDdnn9dV0MAJa XXN8txk+bCkd91PFQcAWa+u7lXuJYKwIOIsbzrFCxCe2OreTYxObOqenYcNajulJ oCQVxsLGC1lh4k5bhyzF =qhcm -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/14/2015 03:11 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

I have been pushing this packet of books for around a year now, and from time to time it seems to have been well received: It's a course in remedial politics, intended to fill basic gaps in people's information about how populist a.k.a. anarchist politics actually works:

http://pilobilus.net/strategic_conflict_docs_intro.html

Thank you. Added to my to read list.

Ding! Another customer enters the shop...

...

...

Another shot to prod you along a bit further:

Those who are compliant with despotic external authority in the face of their own inner conscience of right and wrong, ought be regarded as other/ outer/ "them", and treated with extreme caution!

"Those" sheep happens to be about 60% to 90% of everyone! You wanna sweep -that- under the carpet of your politically correct boat?

The presumption that people who are notably compliant with illegitimate authority have a "conscience" and fixed notions of right and wrong is questionable.

We're talking about the Milgram experiment - instructor (authority, actor), teacher (the sheep), learner (electro shock pain receiver for wrong answers, actor).

[ ... ]

The results speak for themselves!

Indeed they do. In a context where the test subjects are self-selected (volunteers) from a population and culture deeply committed to elaborate, labor intensive submission to authority (college students), with "the boss" hovering over them demanding compliance (politely of course), most will continue "only following orders" to the point of endangering the lives of anonymous strangers. I'm not sure this generalizes to describe the behavior of whole populations in the wild, though. Certainly, every country of any size has more than enough pathological "followers" to field military forces, run concentration camps, etc. But I think "60% to 90%" of any population is a very high estimate.

The results speak for themselves. You keep apologising in subtle(?) ways - "oh, it's only the most eager sociopaths" and "all the others must have had some other disorders".

Seriously?

Nope: I was expressly talking about "Those who comply most eagerly", not the much larger number whose compliance is marginal, grudging, or largely pretended.

This result doesn't need our qualification nor any apology! 'We' need a solution to educating 'ourselves' - our 'fellow sheep'!

You'll get no arguments from me on that point: If I could find a way to put that on a paying basis, I would probably not be flat broke today. Major clue: The most persistent and effective populist resistance movements have emerged from religious communities. Our adversaries understand this well, and spare no expense promoting atheism to the demographic groups most likely to engage in political activism. Terminally corrupt, easily bought clergy - a minority among that occupation - are kept front and center in public view by mass media outlets, for the dual purpose of alienating as many 'natural born rebels' as possible from religion in general, and recruiting as many 'natural born killers' as possible into a "God and Country" eg. God IS Country cult paradigm.

...

But as the gap between rewards promised and rewards delivered continues to widen, and the violent excesses of our rulers become more and more obvious, compliance will continue to decline.

Please - "obviousness" is not a citation!

More obvious to the general public: As an example consider the unprecedented mass media coverage of violent crimes by police officers, and social network propaganda campaigns like those run by Black Lives Matter, Cop Watch, etc. Likewise, Liberals and Conservatives are acutely aware of mass scale economic crimes by our rulers: The Liberals are taught to blame Capitalism and the Conservatives to blame Socialism. The real perpetrators are billionaires who use Capitalist or Socialist models where and as they provide maximum advantage; as long as the general public fails to recognize this the game can continue - but no matter what, the looting of national economies and attendant reductions in the rewards of obedience continues.

And then "we" all suffer your proposed "violent excesses of our rulers" - what sort of solution is that?!!!

I have not proposed violent excesses, I have observed them. Big difference.

As history shows, not until WAY after its much too late to be relevant to those who suffer the torture and or death arising from your stated "violent excesses of our rulers".

History: Satyagraha, Civil Rights, People Power and the Zapatista movement never happened? The Dutch did not bring Nazification of their country to a grinding halt, and Iceland is still controlled by a gang of criminal bankers? As rationalizations go, imagining State and Corporate actors to be all-powerful and civil society weak and helpless, is a GREAT excuse for personal non-action. That's why State aligned actors consistently present these Big Lies as Eternal Truths.

Why do you keep qualifying this as though it's somehow "ok" and "explainable" - are you proposing to remove the "reward" of all salaries of all government employees? I'm sure Juan and I would agree - but do you think that would be attainable? Right, just like before Libya got blown up by the USA - refer Hillary "We came, we saw he [Gaddafi] died" Clinton?

An angry fighter is a losing fighter. Things that are not "OK" are in fact explainable, and if your explanations accurately model the causes of Bad Things, they will enable you to develop effective strategies for reducing or eliminating those Bad Things. We have all been taught that Bad Things are done by Bad People, and that the universal solution is to identify, hate, and destroy those Bad People. We are taught this by propagandists employed by Bad People, so that our responses to the bad things they do will be self defeating. The same naive beliefs are essential for promoting wars of economic conquest, where people must be persuaded that certain foreign leaders are Bad People who must be hated and destroyed. As for removing the promised rewards of full compliance with illegitimate authority, that is a self-solving problem if one waits long enough. Right now in the former Western Democracies, those rewards are being removed by the ruling class, via wholesale looting of national economies at the fastest pace that will not cause them to immediately collapse. This looting is necessary to sustain the exponential growth of corporate enterprise, which is necessary to its own survival and to the financial ambitions of our billionaires: The exponential growth of the global industrial economy has reached hard limits imposed by geophysics; the only way to keep our billionaires' portfolios growing is redistribution of wealth from the poor and middle classes to the very rich.

...

This creates a growth market for populist political agitators - a market that opponents and supporters of authoritarian rule are already competing to capture.

What do you mean by "this"? I cannot comprehend this sentence.

What I mean by "this" requires the context of the paragraph the sentence above has been removed from: "This" is the growing gap between rewards promised and rewards delivered, in return for committed compliance with the demands of illegitimate authority.

...

Politics is about power: Who has it, who doesn't, and how these groups interact. The object of political activity is to obtain and exercise power, toward whatever ends one chooses. Political

That might be your idea.

You might say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Politics is a little about power, but more about authority - exercising authority in the context of a shared common delusion of "democracy" or whatever the regime of the day is spouting to its sheep!

Power creates authority. Authority is the exercise of expressly defined power.

And Milgram showed us definitively that most people are sheep who will submit to any and every external authority firmly put to them (eg verbally), right up to and including the point at which that sheep will be applying deadly force to another "fellow sheep".

...

models and strategies that actually work in this context are "correct" while those that do not work are "incorrect."

What do you mean by "work"?

Something "works" when it has the desired effect in practical application.

Note to yourself - my definition of "works" may be different to yours. These generalisms slow the conversation down.

I'm a think I wandered into Monty Python's Argument Clinic. The best I can hope for is to avoid 'being hit in the head lessons.'

...

There is a time and place for everything,

Like ritual human sacrifice?

I hate to say it, but yes. Example: http://www.rachelcorrie.org/ Bear in mind that she was a volunteer. She could have stood down at any moment.

...

but rarely a time when elitism, or driving wedges between groups who have political enemies in common with oneself, is "correct" in a functional sense.

So your position is that Milgram, by doing his experiment, and empirically showing us that humans are despotically submissive sheep, is fundamentally being elitist?

Or pointing out Milgrim's result is elitist?

Or warning that a huge percentage of humans are despotically submissive is elitist?

My position is that holding oneself to be inherently superior to most of the human race is elitist.

Or that this mass debate you're engaging in is your hissy fit over the term "sheep" to describe humans? Humans as demonstrated to a shocking degree by Milgram's experiments? In that case, the term sheep is seriously understated!

If you refer to my first post in this thread, you won't find a hissy fit. You will find a simple statement about my dislike for the term 'sheeple'.

How about this then eh:

Ooh, I'm gonna get it now! :D

Humans are breathing, eating, sleeping and shitting (BESS) drones, easily caused to submit their wills to comply with external commands and to do absolutely despotic acts; witness Milgram, witness Nuremberg trials.

Humans, the BESS drones man, just the BESS!

Better?

Sure, as long as we are clear that the entity making that statement is a human. Personally, I imagine that humans in general, and you in particular, are much more than that. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWbyuqAAoJEDZ0Gg87KR0LQJ8QANhYYcq1MOFOXPz1sbOuAXTs 6oq73G0bNnmdrNQ84DkhjbI5/BJ6UlifjLm3ynC3WQFHGYonl/KRu8ypd9bx59iU p2AAGc+Su2TPaWjv9g+/gGu8JIRYWr6MaVnXpYMBP+vmOB+no6N/O9jPe1ffkvNi c6oMMMByB2dI4sstH26Pp6U6tp1Tjr0GZZntzFukDMGcku66mSYtrltWi+XPBY3j bBS360REuWQGS4cgsIKsqgFhdX58H4BjKwc8DPVj+l/tYly1ENGkPcJZt6Nftrh+ pWpvrz0vlfqrHrbQ1Tg+MN7Ux0oI9ePEoceCi2QXNEIxVhqDidchuawPGIsN9lAX uWgZEI8R7JaH/Wwfv5f1qxsexfyqapyzcAnXGFXUW9SnirwkJJqfXOsr9cedM0u8 mrwp3/QMjqsACXj0lcMWMixshCc2b2ZT3yrvdE8rGdoic3v0C2IlH/0dVSgJORbv 9b6Na0PtP4jSVrvYxtgGgWzGWWVmDNpk9ioghn8Y7lY4IXIJmeGm1+ChNblpLSsc GD0gYLhh8NYcnisVhieLCgi4uzYVKolCvt6FoVba0yM8bj+IUMzN+7LzlBuN45v8 Bgex8Kz+VdcPjBDrnI8Wjc7G6foYhGl+10e265vSF3J5gsX7d2lR2lW//D2jE1xy dspCYjOiMD8oT3k6Eima =scS/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----