"The West" - an absolute disgrace to Humanity!
Sending it from Zenaan. His ISP plays with him... ---------- Пересылаемое сообщение ---------- From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON@x220-a02> To: zen@freedbms.net Cc: Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:47:51 +1000 (AEST) Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender This is the mail system at host x220a02. I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. The mail system <cypherpunks@cpunks.org>: host mail.bigpond.com[61.9.189.249] said: 552 5.2.0 GCpv1t0052DXzPg01CpwnU Suspected spam message rejected. OB702 (in reply to end of DATA command) Final-Recipient: rfc822; cypherpunks@cpunks.org Action: failed Status: 5.2.0 Remote-MTA: dns; mail.bigpond.com Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 552 5.2.0 GCpv1t0052DXzPg01CpwnU Suspected spam message rejected. OB702 ---------- Пересылаемое сообщение ---------- From: Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cpunks.org> Cc: Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:47:48 +1000 Subject: walking in another's shoes Assertions of fact which I presume are not in dispute except perhaps by schooled (and not educated) North Americans: - North America/ the USA, has NO righteous authority to be the "policeman of the world"! - The only authority the the USA has to be "the policeman of the world" is the predatorial right, the predatorial authority. - The United States of America government is ethically bankrupt. - The government of the USA has been co-opted by the North American (and western world oligarch controlled) Military Industrial Complex. - The hegemonic intention of the government of the USA and the "neo conservatives" or war mongers of "the West", is a predatorial manifestion of the desire for empire, the desire to control the world. The hegemonic USA must end. That said, here is what might be termed a human perspective of what an average Russian living in Russia or perhaps the Donbas today, might actually be experiencing, feeling and thinking, and why (historical memories etc) - a somewhat moving piece for those so inclined: --- "Why People Never Believe That War Is Coming – Until It Is Too Late" In Russian: http://www.apn-spb.ru/opinions/article23999.htm In English: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/why-people-never-believe-war-coming-th... --- A thought: The "terrorists" in Syria, aka IS or ISIS or ISIL, go into town, villages and cities, forcing "conversion" or death upon those families who live there. The so called "terrorists" of eastern Ukraine in the Donbas/ Novorossia, are families fighting for their lives against the Ukraine state army who are coming to "subdue" them, to "encourage" them to accept the new Ukrainian coup government with its laws saying the Russian language is no longer official, and no longer allowed to be taught in their local schools, and many more abominations to "European values"! Oh, but it's all just "Russian aggression". FFS, wake up European nations! wake up North Americans! Absolutely the Ukrainian army must stop shooting and bombing its own people! Absolutely the eastern Ukrainian people have a right to defend themselves against "their own" army shooting at them, their own "president" Poroshenko "Donbas Children Will Sit in Cellars, “Ours” Will Go to School": Amazing Poroshenko Video: Keep Donbas Children "Holed Up" in ... http://russia-insider.com/en/node/1122 http://sputniknews.com/europe/20141114/1014748940.html https://dninews.com/article/doctor-liza-will-evacuate-13-children-moscow-don... (well at least Poroshenko said it in a civilized setting - the Odessa Opera House.) Poroshenko: “we [in Ukraine] will have work they – [in the Donbas] won’t. We will have pensions – they won’t. We will care for our children and pensioners – they won’t. Our children will go to school, to kindergartens – their children will sit in cellars. They don’t know how to organize or do anything. This, ultimately, is how we will win this war.” https://southfront.org/its-like-a-textbook-for-torture-why-the-donbass-will-... (this article is too intense, I can't finish reading it) https://www.rt.com/news/163288-seven-children-wounded-unicef/ A boy holds a placard reading "Save Donbas children. Please stop ATO!" (anti-terrorists operation) in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on June 1, 2014 (AFP Photo) / AFP (This one's a bit easier to read.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_the_war_in_Donba... http://www.phillip-butler.com/when-will-we-the-people-stop-the-killing-in-do... "Someone explain to me so I can understand. How is it that Russia is somehow negligent in influencing pro-Russian separatists in east Ukraine, when the Kiev junta’s forces are the ones shelling civilians daily? Does Germany’s Angela Merkel see something the world cannot? God only knows." All hail Ukraine! Home of the direct second and third generation Nazis! We, the collective "West" are an absolute disgrace on this planet!!!!! So YES if I were the USA president I would do better! The only real challenge is doing better as USA president, and stopping yourself from being killed for cleaning up the endless shit that is North American foreign policy! "The West", an absolute disgrace to humanity..
On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 04:07:03PM +0300, Александр wrote:
Sending it from Zenaan. His ISP plays with him...
Thank you Alex - sorry list, I didn't get my "managed to send using Gmail" to Alex quick enough. Which goes to show an actual benefit of gmail - bypassing my ISP's filtering...
Hey Pravda started forwarding straight to the list ... ;) -- John
On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:07 AM, Александр <afalex169@gmail.com> wrote:
Sending it from Zenaan. His ISP plays with him...
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---------- Пересылаемое сообщение ---------- From: Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cpunks.org> Cc: Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:47:48 +1000 Subject: walking in another's shoes
Assertions of fact which I presume are not in dispute except perhaps by schooled (and not educated) North Americans:
- North America/ the USA, has NO righteous authority to be the "policeman of the world"!
- The only authority the the USA has to be "the policeman of the world" is the predatorial right, the predatorial authority.
- The United States of America government is ethically bankrupt.
- The government of the USA has been co-opted by the North American (and western world oligarch controlled) Military Industrial Complex.
- The hegemonic intention of the government of the USA and the "neo conservatives" or war mongers of "the West", is a predatorial manifestion of the desire for empire, the desire to control the world.
The hegemonic USA must end.
That said, here is what might be termed a human perspective of what an average Russian living in Russia or perhaps the Donbas today, might actually be experiencing, feeling and thinking, and why (historical memories etc) - a somewhat moving piece for those so inclined:
--- "Why People Never Believe That War Is Coming – Until It Is Too Late"
In Russian: http://www.apn-spb.ru/opinions/article23999.htm In English: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/why-people-never-believe-war-coming-th... ---
A thought:
The "terrorists" in Syria, aka IS or ISIS or ISIL, go into town, villages and cities, forcing "conversion" or death upon those families who live there.
The so called "terrorists" of eastern Ukraine in the Donbas/ Novorossia, are families fighting for their lives against the Ukraine state army who are coming to "subdue" them, to "encourage" them to accept the new Ukrainian coup government with its laws saying the Russian language is no longer official, and no longer allowed to be taught in their local schools, and many more abominations to "European values"!
Oh, but it's all just "Russian aggression".
FFS, wake up European nations! wake up North Americans!
Absolutely the Ukrainian army must stop shooting and bombing its own people!
Absolutely the eastern Ukrainian people have a right to defend themselves against "their own" army shooting at them, their own "president" Poroshenko "Donbas Children Will Sit in Cellars, “Ours” Will Go to School":
Amazing Poroshenko Video: Keep Donbas Children "Holed Up" in ... http://russia-insider.com/en/node/1122
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20141114/1014748940.html
https://dninews.com/article/doctor-liza-will-evacuate-13-children-moscow-don...
(well at least Poroshenko said it in a civilized setting - the Odessa Opera House.)
Poroshenko: “we [in Ukraine] will have work they – [in the Donbas] won’t. We will have pensions – they won’t. We will care for our children and pensioners – they won’t. Our children will go to school, to kindergartens – their children will sit in cellars. They don’t know how to organize or do anything. This, ultimately, is how we will win this war.”
https://southfront.org/its-like-a-textbook-for-torture-why-the-donbass-will-... (this article is too intense, I can't finish reading it)
https://www.rt.com/news/163288-seven-children-wounded-unicef/ A boy holds a placard reading "Save Donbas children. Please stop ATO!" (anti-terrorists operation) in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on June 1, 2014 (AFP Photo) / AFP (This one's a bit easier to read.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_the_war_in_Donba...
http://www.phillip-butler.com/when-will-we-the-people-stop-the-killing-in-do... "Someone explain to me so I can understand. How is it that Russia is somehow negligent in influencing pro-Russian separatists in east Ukraine, when the Kiev junta’s forces are the ones shelling civilians daily? Does Germany’s Angela Merkel see something the world cannot? God only knows."
All hail Ukraine! Home of the direct second and third generation Nazis!
We, the collective "West" are an absolute disgrace on this planet!!!!!
So YES if I were the USA president I would do better! The only real challenge is doing better as USA president, and stopping yourself from being killed for cleaning up the endless shit that is North American foreign policy!
"The West", an absolute disgrace to humanity..
+e On 7/8/16 9:55 AM, John Newman wrote:
Hey Pravda started forwarding straight to the list ... ;)
-- John
On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:07 AM, Александр <afalex169@gmail.com <mailto:afalex169@gmail.com>> wrote:
Sending it from Zenaan. His ISP plays with him...
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Final-Recipient: rfc822; cypherpunks@cpunks.org <mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org> Action: failed Status: 5.2.0 Remote-MTA: dns; mail.bigpond.com <http://mail.bigpond.com> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 552 5.2.0 GCpv1t0052DXzPg01CpwnU Suspected spam message rejected. OB702
---------- Пересылаемое сообщение ---------- From: Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net <mailto:zen@freedbms.net>> To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cpunks.org <mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org>> Cc: Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:47:48 +1000 Subject: walking in another's shoes
Assertions of fact which I presume are not in dispute except perhaps by schooled (and not educated) North Americans:
- North America/ the USA, has NO righteous authority to be the "policeman of the world"!
- The only authority the the USA has to be "the policeman of the world" is the predatorial right, the predatorial authority.
- The United States of America government is ethically bankrupt.
- The government of the USA has been co-opted by the North American (and western world oligarch controlled) Military Industrial Complex.
- The hegemonic intention of the government of the USA and the "neo conservatives" or war mongers of "the West", is a predatorial manifestion of the desire for empire, the desire to control the world.
The hegemonic USA must end.
That said, here is what might be termed a human perspective of what an average Russian living in Russia or perhaps the Donbas today, might actually be experiencing, feeling and thinking, and why (historical memories etc) - a somewhat moving piece for those so inclined:
--- "Why People Never Believe That War Is Coming – Until It Is Too Late"
In Russian: http://www.apn-spb.ru/opinions/article23999.htm In English: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/why-people-never-believe-war-coming-th... ---
A thought:
The "terrorists" in Syria, aka IS or ISIS or ISIL, go into town, villages and cities, forcing "conversion" or death upon those families who live there.
The so called "terrorists" of eastern Ukraine in the Donbas/ Novorossia, are families fighting for their lives against the Ukraine state army who are coming to "subdue" them, to "encourage" them to accept the new Ukrainian coup government with its laws saying the Russian language is no longer official, and no longer allowed to be taught in their local schools, and many more abominations to "European values"!
Oh, but it's all just "Russian aggression".
FFS, wake up European nations! wake up North Americans!
Absolutely the Ukrainian army must stop shooting and bombing its own people!
Absolutely the eastern Ukrainian people have a right to defend themselves against "their own" army shooting at them, their own "president" Poroshenko "Donbas Children Will Sit in Cellars, “Ours” Will Go to School":
Amazing Poroshenko Video: Keep Donbas Children "Holed Up" in ... http://russia-insider.com/en/node/1122
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20141114/1014748940.html
https://dninews.com/article/doctor-liza-will-evacuate-13-children-moscow-don...
(well at least Poroshenko said it in a civilized setting - the Odessa Opera House.)
Poroshenko: “we [in Ukraine] will have work they – [in the Donbas] won’t. We will have pensions – they won’t. We will care for our children and pensioners – they won’t. Our children will go to school, to kindergartens – their children will sit in cellars. They don’t know how to organize or do anything. This, ultimately, is how we will win this war.”
https://southfront.org/its-like-a-textbook-for-torture-why-the-donbass-will-... (this article is too intense, I can't finish reading it)
https://www.rt.com/news/163288-seven-children-wounded-unicef/ A boy holds a placard reading "Save Donbas children. Please stop ATO!" (anti-terrorists operation) in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on June 1, 2014 (AFP Photo) / AFP (This one's a bit easier to read.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_the_war_in_Donba...
http://www.phillip-butler.com/when-will-we-the-people-stop-the-killing-in-do... "Someone explain to me so I can understand. How is it that Russia is somehow negligent in influencing pro-Russian separatists in east Ukraine, when the Kiev junta’s forces are the ones shelling civilians daily? Does Germany’s Angela Merkel see something the world cannot? God only knows."
All hail Ukraine! Home of the direct second and third generation Nazis!
We, the collective "West" are an absolute disgrace on this planet!!!!!
So YES if I were the USA president I would do better! The only real challenge is doing better as USA president, and stopping yourself from being killed for cleaning up the endless shit that is North American foreign policy!
"The West", an absolute disgrace to humanity..
-- Stephen D. Williams sdw@lig.net stephendwilliams@gmail.com LinkedIn: http://sdw.st/in V:650-450-UNIX (8649) V:866.SDW.UNIX V:703.371.9362 F:703.995.0407 AIM:sdw Skype:StephenDWilliams Yahoo:sdwlignet Resume: http://sdw.st/gres Personal: http://sdw.st facebook.com/sdwlig twitter.com/scienteer
On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 04:07:03PM +0300, Александр wrote:
Sending it from Zenaan. His ISP plays with him...
---------- Пересылаемое сообщение ---------- From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON@x220-a02> To: zen@freedbms.net Cc: [...] All hail Ukraine! Home of the direct second and third generation Nazis!
Ugh. I tried to google who else Russians may call a nazi, because it is so hard to believe there is only one such country in a whole big world. But gog could not find anything interesting, other than this: [ http://time.com/3545855/russia-ukraine-war-history/ ] Russians Rewrite History to Slur Ukraine Over War Simon Shuster / Moscow @shustry Oct. 29, 2014 (quotations start here) Vladimir Putin has turned the idea of fascism into a political tool, and now Russian historians are adapting to the Kremlin line The trio of German historians, as well as a handful of their colleagues from Eastern Europe, flew into Moscow last week for what they thought would be a conference on the history of Nazi war crimes. It was the fifth in a series of international summits held every other year since 2006, first in Berlin and Cologne, then in Slovakia and Belarus, to keep alive the memory of the towns and villages destroyed during World War II. But the German co-chairman of the conference, Sven Borsche, began to feel that something was amiss in Moscow as soon as he met his Russian hosts. “All they wanted to talk about was the conflict in Ukraine,” he says. Even without the simultaneous translations provided for the foreign guests, they would have gotten the political message. The photographs shown by several of the Russian speakers put the atrocities of the Nazi SS right alongside pictures from the current war in eastern Ukraine. There is not much difference, the Russian historians suggested, between the actions of the Ukrainian military in its war against separatist rebels and the atrocities that Hitler’s forces committed during World War II. (...) This rhetoric—calling it an argument would overstate its relation to facts—has recently come into vogue among Russian historians. Under their interpretation of history, the struggle that began with the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 continues for Russia today, in a direct line through the generations, with the conflict in Ukraine. That is the connection President Vladimir Putin first presented to the Russian people in March, when he sent his troops to invade and annex the Ukrainian region of Crimea. The Russian-speaking residents of that peninsula, he said in a speech on the day of the annexation, need Russia’s protection from Ukraine’s new leaders, whom he referred to as “neo-Nazis and anti-Semites.” Ukraine’s ensuing war to prevent Russia from seizing any more of its territory has likewise been branded a fascist campaign against ethnic Russians. (...) As these speeches were translated for the foreign delegates, including guests from the Czech Republic and Slovakia, their faces turned gradually from confusion to disgust. Joerg Morre, the director of Berlin’s Karlhorst Museum, which focuses on the history of the eastern front in World War II, began to fidget in his seat. “I mean, to show the photographs of the Second World War and then switch in the next slide to what’s happening in Ukraine,” Morre told me during a break in the conference, “No way is that right. Now way!” Borsche, the co-chairman, agreed with him: “It’s polemical!” he said. As the conference drew to a close, the two of them decided to voice their objections. Morre, springing from his seat, took hold of the microphone and told the hall that he did not agree with the final declaration of the conference, which had been written by its Russian organizers. Specifically, he took issue with the clause that declared, “Our generation is facing the task to deter [the] revival of Fascism and Nazism,” a thinly veiled reference to Ukraine, the German delegates felt. “It has become clear that we have different views on what fascism means today,” Morre told the hall in nearly perfect Russian. “Your point of view is not mine. So I call for this part of the resolution to be removed,” he added. “I do not want to sign it, and I am not the only one.” After some noisy debate, the delegates agreed to put the matter to a vote. Practically all of the foreign participants raised their hands in favor of deleting the reference to a “revival” of European fascism. All of the Russian participants, including a large group of high school students who had been herded into the auditorium about 15 minutes earlier, had the clear majority in voting to leave the text of the declaration unchanged. So the hosts of the conference won out—a small but telling victory for the cause of Russian revisionism. Outside the hall, Borsche seemed at a loss for words as he waited in the coat-check line. He had served as one of the initiators of the conference and its co-chairman, flying in from Germany for the occasion to discuss a shared history of suffering during World War II. But he says he had no idea that his Russian colleagues would use it as a chance to promote their political agenda against Ukraine. “That’s not correct,” he told me. If there is some lesson to be learned from the experience, it’s a familiar one, he said: “The more people are convinced of their own opinion, the more they become estranged from other opinions. That’s a real difficult problem.” And as Russia sets out to redefine what Nazism means, it is a problem that Western historians will somehow have to face. (quotations end here) [...]
"The West", an absolute disgrace to humanity..
I can only imagine when people find out about this, they will run like hares and mad cows straight to non-western countries. Spread the word, man. Also, buy your tickets while you can, before the mad crowd prevents you from running away from this horrible place. Even better, once you buy tickets, use them asap, go to your destination, meet your dreams. Do not forget to drop few words to the list, so other lost souls know what to expect outside. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
2016-07-09 6:09 GMT+03:00 Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl>:
Russians Rewrite History
Wonderful. Just wonderful. The fucken west, the us-europe evil bundle, rewrite the History in every imaginable aspect (just pick up the WW2 and the Ukraine/Iraq/... example), but guess who rewrites the History? *It's the main VICTIM of their lies - the bloody Russians!* So, not only that they do this vile crime, rewriting the whole History, but they blame THE MAIN VICTIM of their lies in their own sin. Yeah.....! This is all what is west about. LIES. LIES. LIES. Hail West. Hail Lies. Hail Hatred. Hail or maybe.... shall we say *Fuck West. Fuck Lies. Fuck Hatred. And Fuck Those Who Spread It!* *Just FUCK!*
On July 9, 2016 1:16:33 AM EDT, "Александр" <afalex169@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-07-09 6:09 GMT+03:00 Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl>:
Russians Rewrite History
Wonderful. Just wonderful. The fucken west, the us-europe evil bundle, rewrite the History in every imaginable aspect (just pick up the WW2 and the Ukraine/Iraq/... example), but guess who rewrites the History? *It's the main VICTIM of their lies - the bloody Russians!* So, not only that they do this vile crime, rewriting the whole History, but they blame THE MAIN VICTIM of their lies in their own sin. Yeah.....! This is all what is west about. LIES. LIES. LIES.
Hail West. Hail Lies. Hail Hatred. Hail
or maybe.... shall we say *Fuck West. Fuck Lies. Fuck Hatred. And Fuck Those Who Spread It!* *Just FUCK!*
Yes, fuck em! Fuck ALL nation-state propaganda and lies! Including, but by no means limited to, mouthpieces for Putin! -- John -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
This rhetoric—calling it an argument would overstate its relation to facts—has recently come into vogue among Russian historians. Under their interpretation of history, the struggle that began with the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 continues for Russia today, in a direct line through the generations, with the conflict in Ukraine. That is the connection President Vladimir Putin first presented to the Russian people in March, when he sent his troops to invade and annex the Ukrainian region of Crimea.
"Invasion" of Crimea by Russia in 2014? Please! If the actions of Russia in the face of the Azov battalian's "peace train" to Crimea, a referendum, secession and joining to Russia, without a single bullet fired, is supposed to be a "Russian invasion", then the world does not have much to worry about with Russia. I guess it would also be "assumed fact" that Russia continues, for over 2 years, to "invade" eastern Ukraine/ Donbass - I tell you this, if I had family living in Donbass who would struggle to defend themselves against various Ukraine "battallians", to defend their families, children, houses, friends, I would most likely have been fighting with them to help them defend the rest of my family, their house, friends etc. ISIS invades Syria, entering from Iraq, Turkey and other surrounding areas, provided weapons and training by CIA, and takes over towns and cities; THAT is an invasion. As it is, we in the West can sit back so comfortably, armchair war generals, declare with the CIA that Al Nusra, Daesh and other Wahabbi extremists entering/invading Syria are actually "freedom fighters" as they invade towns and cities, raping, killing and destroying, because, you know "Assad must go", whilst those families defending themselves and their houses in eastern Ukraine against their own supposed "government" are "terrorists". Saying black is white don't mean shit!
Ukraine’s ensuing war to prevent Russia from seizing any more of its territory has likewise been branded a fascist campaign against ethnic Russians.
From what I've seen from afar, it is. And up until about 2 years ago, I didn't know much about Russia... but I keep reading, Western as well as Russian propaganda.
“The more people are convinced of their own opinion, the more they become estranged from other opinions. That’s a real difficult problem.” And as Russia sets out to redefine what Nazism means, it is a problem that Western historians will somehow have to face.
A good point here. Let's see how things play out over the next couple of years.
"The West", an absolute disgrace to humanity..
I can only imagine when people find out about this, they will run like hares and mad cows straight to non-western countries.
We Westerners are well fed, well entertained, well schooled (not educated) and sadly very compliant with external authorities. Golden cages do -not- make for an honourable humans!
Spread the word, man. Also, buy your tickets while you can, before the mad crowd prevents you from running away from this horrible place. Even better, once you buy tickets, use them asap, go to your destination, meet your dreams. Do not forget to drop few words to the list, so other lost souls know what to expect outside.
I would hope humans worthy of that noun, strive for something higher than a new car, 5 bedroom house and footy tickets. Yes, I keep dreaming.
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 10:33:58PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
I guess it would also be "assumed fact" that Russia continues, for over 2 years, to "invade" eastern Ukraine/ Donbass -
By the way, it ought be obvious to any thinking mind, but if Russia chose to actually invade Ukraine and risk the big confront with America and WWIII, it would have seized Ukraine's capital Kiev in about 48 hours - less time than it would take the US to actually get its shit in order to respond and ship over many battallians of various forces (which is, truly, what the war hawks want the excuse to do - to be "the policeman of the world"). The conclusion AFAICT on both sides (USA and Russia) seems to be that, assuming no nuclear armageddon, a regular ground/air war would proceed for a few months and America would likely reclaim Ukraine from such an aggressive Russia, but Russia would exact a very high toll as the price for "Western freedom". Fortunately, this did not happen. (And in that hypothetical, the Ukrainians would have experienced a hell far greater, far more devastating, far more intense, and over a much shorter time frame, than they have ever experienced (as f@#$ed up as it is) over the last two years of civil war.)
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 10:33:58PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
This rhetoric—calling it an argument would overstate its relation to facts—has recently come into vogue among Russian historians. Under their interpretation of history, the struggle that began with the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 continues for Russia today, in a direct line through the generations, with the conflict in Ukraine. That is the connection President Vladimir Putin first presented to the Russian people in March, when he sent his troops to invade and annex the Ukrainian region of Crimea.
"Invasion" of Crimea by Russia in 2014? Please!
If the actions of Russia in the face of the Azov battalian's "peace train" to Crimea, a referendum, secession and joining to Russia, without a single bullet fired, is supposed to be a "Russian invasion", then the world does not have much to worry about with Russia.
I guess Russia is no longer powerful enough to openly break treaties it signed: [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances ] "The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Belarus', Kazakhstan's and Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents. The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan." In light of this act, if I was responsible for Russian politics, and I received a plea to join Russia by a foreign party belonging to country which integrity I myself guaranteed - such a plea would smell rather fishy to me. Unless, of course, I predicted great bonuses if I agree and let them join me. Never mind that right now there is huge loss of money for Russia, they will replenish their finances in a future, somehow.
I guess it would also be "assumed fact" that Russia continues, for over 2 years, to "invade" eastern Ukraine/ Donbass - I tell you this, if I had family living in Donbass who would struggle to defend themselves against various Ukraine "battallians", to defend their families, children, houses, friends, I would most likely have been fighting with them to help them defend the rest of my family, their house, friends etc.
This works the other way too. How about people who want to defend their families, children, houses and friends from living in Russia?
ISIS invades Syria, entering from Iraq, Turkey and other surrounding areas, provided weapons and training by CIA, and takes over towns and cities; THAT is an invasion.
And I was so certain that daesh had been financed by some wealthy people from Near East. [...]
Saying black is white don't mean shit!
Some people will believe just anything. [...]
From what I've seen from afar, it is. And up until about 2 years ago, I didn't know much about Russia... but I keep reading, Western as well as Russian propaganda.
Oh, do you mean you know/learn Russian? Because this is the best way to read Russian propaganda. Try to be like Aleksandr, who (I guess) already knows Russian and learned English, so he can read the propaganda from both sources without having to count on strangers' good will and faithfulness. Actually, do not limit yourself to mere propaganda. It would have been so cheap, you know. Russian culture is vast and rich. Try it. Some names to explore, if you need a starter: Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Mikhail Sholokhov, Isaac Babel, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Osip Mandelstam, Mikhail Bulgakov, Varlam Shalamov. Some of them you can get for free, from wikisources and other places. Even more of their works you can find if you can read them from Russian wikisources.
“The more people are convinced of their own opinion, the more they become estranged from other opinions. That’s a real difficult problem.” And as Russia sets out to redefine what Nazism means, it is a problem that Western historians will somehow have to face.
A good point here. Let's see how things play out over the next couple of years.
Sure.
"The West", an absolute disgrace to humanity..
I can only imagine when people find out about this, they will run like hares and mad cows straight to non-western countries.
We Westerners are well fed, well entertained, well schooled (not educated) and sadly very compliant with external authorities.
Golden cages do -not- make for an honourable humans!
I would say that cages made of barbed wire convert humans to animals. So if I can choose, may I stay in my silver cage, please? It does not really have to be golden one.
Spread the word, man. Also, buy your tickets while you can, before the mad crowd prevents you from running away from this horrible place. Even better, once you buy tickets, use them asap, go to your destination, meet your dreams. Do not forget to drop few words to the list, so other lost souls know what to expect outside.
I would hope humans worthy of that noun, strive for something higher than a new car, 5 bedroom house and footy tickets.
Yes, I keep dreaming.
From "Cancer Ward" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, as given on wikipedia [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer_Ward ]:
(start quote) The most confusing thing about the imprisoned animals was that even supposing Oleg took their side and had the power, he would still not want to break into the cages and liberate them. This was because, deprived of their home surroundings, they had lost the idea of rational freedom. It would only make things harder for them, suddenly to set them free. This was the odd way Kostoglotov reasoned. His brain was so twisted that he could no longer see things simply and dispassionately. Whatever he experienced from now on, there would always be this shadow, this grey spectre, this subterranean rumbling from the past. (end quote) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 07:52:34PM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 10:33:58PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
This rhetoric—calling it an argument would overstate its relation to facts—has recently come into vogue among Russian historians. Under their interpretation of history, the struggle that began with the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 continues for Russia today, in a direct line through the generations, with the conflict in Ukraine. That is the connection President Vladimir Putin first presented to the Russian people in March, when he sent his troops to invade and annex the Ukrainian region of Crimea.
"Invasion" of Crimea by Russia in 2014? Please!
If the actions of Russia in the face of the Azov battalian's "peace train" to Crimea, a referendum, secession and joining to Russia, without a single bullet fired, is supposed to be a "Russian invasion", then the world does not have much to worry about with Russia.
I guess Russia is no longer powerful enough to openly break treaties it signed:
[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
]
"The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Belarus', Kazakhstan's and Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.
The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan."
In light of this act, if I was responsible for Russian politics, and I received a plea to join Russia by a foreign party belonging to country which integrity I myself guaranteed - such a plea would smell rather fishy to me. Unless, of course, I predicted great bonuses if I agree and let them join me. Never mind that right now there is huge loss of money for Russia, they will replenish their finances in a future, somehow.
How can you stomach saying that and in the same breath you decry America's most blatant coup in history overthrowing ... Ukraine?! Oh, that's right, what America does is not bad, what Russia does cannot be anything BUT bad, because, -Russians-! And of course, you read Putin's Crimea speech. You must be Polish. Sorry, I mean American. I won't dignify the rest with any further reply, you are trolling.
I guess it would also be "assumed fact" that Russia continues, for over 2 years, to "invade" eastern Ukraine/ Donbass - I tell you this, if I had family living in Donbass who would struggle to defend themselves against various Ukraine "battallians", to defend their families, children, houses, friends, I would most likely have been fighting with them to help them defend the rest of my family, their house, friends etc.
This works the other way too. How about people who want to defend their families, children, houses and friends from living in Russia?
ISIS invades Syria, entering from Iraq, Turkey and other surrounding areas, provided weapons and training by CIA, and takes over towns and cities; THAT is an invasion.
And I was so certain that daesh had been financed by some wealthy people from Near East.
[...]
Saying black is white don't mean shit!
Some people will believe just anything.
[...]
From what I've seen from afar, it is. And up until about 2 years ago, I didn't know much about Russia... but I keep reading, Western as well as Russian propaganda.
Oh, do you mean you know/learn Russian? Because this is the best way to read Russian propaganda. Try to be like Aleksandr, who (I guess) already knows Russian and learned English, so he can read the propaganda from both sources without having to count on strangers' good will and faithfulness.
Actually, do not limit yourself to mere propaganda. It would have been so cheap, you know. Russian culture is vast and rich. Try it. Some names to explore, if you need a starter: Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Mikhail Sholokhov, Isaac Babel, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Osip Mandelstam, Mikhail Bulgakov, Varlam Shalamov. Some of them you can get for free, from wikisources and other places. Even more of their works you can find if you can read them from Russian wikisources.
“The more people are convinced of their own opinion, the more they become estranged from other opinions. That’s a real difficult problem.” And as Russia sets out to redefine what Nazism means, it is a problem that Western historians will somehow have to face.
A good point here. Let's see how things play out over the next couple of years.
Sure.
"The West", an absolute disgrace to humanity..
I can only imagine when people find out about this, they will run like hares and mad cows straight to non-western countries.
We Westerners are well fed, well entertained, well schooled (not educated) and sadly very compliant with external authorities.
Golden cages do -not- make for an honourable humans!
I would say that cages made of barbed wire convert humans to animals. So if I can choose, may I stay in my silver cage, please? It does not really have to be golden one.
Spread the word, man. Also, buy your tickets while you can, before the mad crowd prevents you from running away from this horrible place. Even better, once you buy tickets, use them asap, go to your destination, meet your dreams. Do not forget to drop few words to the list, so other lost souls know what to expect outside.
I would hope humans worthy of that noun, strive for something higher than a new car, 5 bedroom house and footy tickets.
Yes, I keep dreaming.
From "Cancer Ward" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, as given on wikipedia [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer_Ward ]:
(start quote)
The most confusing thing about the imprisoned animals was that even supposing Oleg took their side and had the power, he would still not want to break into the cages and liberate them. This was because, deprived of their home surroundings, they had lost the idea of rational freedom. It would only make things harder for them, suddenly to set them free.
This was the odd way Kostoglotov reasoned. His brain was so twisted that he could no longer see things simply and dispassionately. Whatever he experienced from now on, there would always be this shadow, this grey spectre, this subterranean rumbling from the past.
(end quote)
-- Regards, Tomasz Rola
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 09:36:13AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 07:52:34PM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 10:33:58PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: [...]
How can you stomach saying that and in the same breath you decry America's most blatant coup in history overthrowing ... Ukraine?!
Oh, that's right, what America does is not bad, what Russia does cannot be anything BUT bad, because, -Russians-!
I can agree that Russia is no better than USA, only weaker and thus has to achieve its goals with different means. As of "bad because Russian", I do not say things like that. It is not my way. I suppose if I was actually prejudiced, you would be feeling much more comfortable...
And of course, you read Putin's Crimea speech.
I am rather busy pursuing my things. Maybe I will spare a while over one of coming weekends. Did he delivered it somewhere on the net? Was it edited or is it presented as it was?
You must be Polish. Sorry, I mean American.
Seems like you think there is something wrong with being one or another?
I won't dignify the rest with any further reply, you are trolling.
Too bad we will not share our experiences with Russian language. But I have just learned about one guy, Dmitry Merezhkovsky. And Russian symbolism. Like I wrote, Russian culture is vast and rich, so whenever I look at it, I always come out with something interesting to learn about. So you called me a troll in just right moment. Thanks! -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 04:27:10AM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
"The West" - an absolute disgrace to Humanity!
... he says, using a communication medium invented by The West.
I am not talking about wealth, technology, inventions, not even health and power to holiday and travel. We can be in denial of the endless CIA coups and USA wars since (and before as history shows) WWII. We can deny that we are told daily by our Western MSM that black is white, the endless NATO encroachment towards Russia's borders is not aggressive and Russia supporting a no-bullet-fired referendum in Crimea, which is mostly Russian people and Russia's only warm water naval base, "aggression". We can say that the CIA funding, fuelling with arms, and training Al Nusra "syrian rebels" is "bringing democracy". We can say murdering Saddam Hussein was for the good of the world and Hillary Clinton's democratic salute to Ghaddafi, "we came, we saw, he died" somehow brings greater stability and peace to the world. We can say the UK and France in creating the Muslim Brotherhood a century ago was great for democratic "regime change" all over the middle east over the last century and we can say installing missile stations in Poland the Baltic states which today can travel 500km and in two years 1000km, is somehow to "contain the threat of Iran's nuclear program" and "poses no threat to Russia" even though being able to directly target Russia's Nuclear stockpile does not endanger the nuclear "balance" currently in the world. We can even say that the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund actually improve the lot of the third world (or the "global south" second and third worlds) despite the specific and impressive debt slavery of those nations over the last half century. We can say all sorts of things, and pretend that these things are somehow "honourable" and "bringing democracy" to the world. But I sent an email, and the Internet was invented by the United States DoD, so any disputation of all these things we can say, some examples above, must be false. No, the West is honourable, upstanding, bringing exaltant standards of human respect, dignity, egalité, liberté, fraternité, democracy. I wish this were the case, but basically, what the West brings to the world today is the exaltation of money, financial greed, war, war and more war. And some golden cages, the trappings of wealth and technology.
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 04:27:10 -0400 Steve Furlong <demonfighter@gmail.com> wrote:
"The West" - an absolute disgrace to Humanity!
... he says, using a communication medium invented by The West.
I say 2+2 = 4, true I say 2+2 = 3, false Oops. The 'medium' has nothing to do with the truth of the content. So yeah, it's quite legitimate to criticize western scumbags using 'their' medium. As a matter of fact, trying to fault an argument because of the medium used to convey it looks pretty much like, you know...a fallacy.
On 7/9/16 1:27 AM, Steve Furlong wrote:
"The West" - an absolute disgrace to Humanity!
... he says, using a communication medium invented by The West.
And empowered by freedom and free speech invented and protected by The West, and the US in particular. It seems likely that the degree of free speech in other Western countries came about, was extended, and/or was protected because of the US First Amendment. There was some existing precedent, and some countries have had various restrictions, but the impenetrable First Amendment provided the most firm model. Every aspect of interpretation had to be fought about, especially including encryption and encryption technology, sometimes with kind of funny results. The fact that electronic source code was restricted while the same code printed in a book couldn't be restricted at all kind of broke some arguments. Everything about the Internet could have been worse, and would have been had it evolved any other way. It's not just because it started in the US, but because of the people involved, the peculiar restrictions of DARPA funding, think tank goals, and the telecommunications monopoly that ATT had at the time, along with their inability to believe that packet switching had any value over circuit switching. We are very lucky, and we owe a lot to a small set of people who made many great choices. By contrast: http://gawker.com/putin-is-literally-breaking-the-internet-1783293408 The US, and much of the West, fought all this out 20 years ago. Let's expand this idea, which I posted on the 6th:
From that, you can derive a number of reasons to support and/or be aware of and/or use the techniques from cypherpunks. For instance, you could look at the US as being largely based on free-speech-anarchism, as per the First Amendment. Based on that, and perhaps borrowing from the Second, Fourth Amendments and other sources, you could easily justify an effort like cypherpunks. In the 90's, Cypherpunks, individually and as a whole, were super important to avoid things going the wrong way in the US. It was important for clear-headed arguments to be made, legal and other challenges mounted in just the right way, and education and code spread widely and evolved quickly. Paranoid babble would not have helped, and is still not helping.
Cypherpunks could only have survived and thrived and made a difference by being predominantly based in the US. On the other hand, it was helped along and strengthened by international participation, which probably tipped the balance in a number of cases. The balance of powers, freedom vs. Federal / police control, public vs. private, etc. all tend to come down on the side of the state and against the individual or group if a country doesn't have airtight constitutional protections. For instance, while France is generally a nicely free country, it had been illegal to use encryption in a lot of cases in France until fairly recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography_law#France Encryption and privacy is like tax law: You should understand what your rights are, where the lines are, and you're within your rights to go right up to the line. And, when something isn't right, you should be able to explain why precisely and work to fix it. We keep knocking down laws that, if they survived, would become templates for other countries. A few things that slipped through have proved that. Which isn't to say that the US is perfect. In many ways, the US is always imperfect, always in a squabble or fight about rights and limits, land grabs or monopoly and healthy commerce; that's part of the design of the system and what enables it to generally work and improve long term. Things tend to go in the right direction eventually, catching up with or adopting best practices from elsewhere. It is a model of stable instability, noise that causes eventual escape from disoptimal minima / maxima. A lot of other systems are similar, but seeing some of them go bad, I wonder how many are missing the complete model of balance of powers needed for more permanent stability and resiliency. The quality of people involved can keep any system working somewhat for a while, or conversely they can break a fairly good system. The interesting measure, and the real measure of comparison, is whether a system is elastic and resilient enough to handle extreme torque, failing in little ways gracefully while never failing overall, and still keep going. One apparent exception, by many people's standards, is guns where historical decisions have a long throw. As yet another resiliency strategy, a kind of defense in depth at the state level, it may or may not still have some of the same effect. We'll just have to solve the problem of effective prevention of mental illness (and very bad meme sets) while suffering some attrition on that front. Solving those is hard, but extremely important and valuable. Determined people don't need guns to kill other people, so I'm skeptical that gun control helps much. We're entering the age of building anything on demand starting only with information and/or imagination, so the impulse of controlling the existence of things is going to rapidly become less effective. Seems like we're almost ready to seriously work on maintaining the quality of mental health and emotional health and culture. This book, perused last night, seems to be on the right track, exploring that direction: Natural Security: A Darwinian Approach to a Dangerous World <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520253477/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0520253477&linkCode=as2&tag=sdwst-20&linkId=0dbeb92851bb1e60b6d533a5178e1179> sdw
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 16:45:52 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
On 7/9/16 1:27 AM, Steve Furlong wrote:
"The West" - an absolute disgrace to Humanity!
... he says, using a communication medium invented by The West.
And empowered by freedom and free speech invented and protected by The West, and the US in particular. It seems likely that the degree of free speech in other Western countries came about, was extended, and/or was protected because of the US First Amendment.
Yes, stephen is nothing but a motherfucking troll =) The 'west' was living in the stone age until the americunts invented ICBMs. With a little help from their imported german nazis...
Cypherpunks could only have survived and thrived and made a difference by being predominantly based in the US.
and yet cypherpunks didn't make any single, fucking difference - that should tell you someting about the state of your americunt cesspool.
Which isn't to say that the US is perfect.
Of course, of course. The US just need to finish off a few million more niggers or hundreds of millions more 'foreigners' worldwide, *then* it will be perfect.
In many ways, the US is always imperfect, always in a squabble or fight about rights and limits, land grabs or monopoly and healthy commerce; that's part of the design of the system
Of course of course! Well, that's the first sensible thing you said. All the americunt savagery IS part of the 'design' of the 'system'. The monopolies, the land grabs, the jails, the wars. That's your true americunt spirit.
and what enables it to generally work and improve long term.
Sure. The more savagery, the more improvement. War is peace and all that. J.
sdw
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 09:15:07PM -0300, juan wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 16:45:52 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
Which isn't to say that the US is perfect.
Of course, of course. The US just need to finish off a few million more niggers or hundreds of millions more 'foreigners' worldwide, *then* it will be perfect.
And the Rosicrucians are certainly not backward about being forward zbout their intentions in this regard (the Georgian monoliths or "guidestones"): "1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2602
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:46:10AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 09:15:07PM -0300, juan wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 16:45:52 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
Which isn't to say that the US is perfect.
Of course, of course. The US just need to finish off a few million more niggers or hundreds of millions more 'foreigners' worldwide, *then* it will be perfect.
And the Rosicrucians are certainly not backward about being forward zbout their intentions in this regard (the Georgian monoliths or "guidestones"): "1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2602
US President Harry S. Truman in 1941: “If we see that Germany is winning the war, we ought to help Russia; and if that Russia is winning, we ought to help Germany, and in that way let them kill as many as possible. . . .”
From here:
NATO Marches Toward Destruction "It is a Cold War that grows increasingly hotter..." https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/08/nato-marches-toward-destruction/ (Alt: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/nato-marches-toward-destruction/ri1550... )
On July 10, 2016 6:57:08 PM EDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:46:10AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 09:15:07PM -0300, juan wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 16:45:52 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
Which isn't to say that the US is perfect.
Of course, of course. The US just need to finish off a few million more niggers or hundreds of millions more 'foreigners' worldwide, *then* it will be perfect.
And the Rosicrucians are certainly not backward about being forward zbout their intentions in this regard (the Georgian monoliths or "guidestones"): "1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2602
US President Harry S. Truman in 1941: “If we see that Germany is winning the war, we ought to help Russia; and if that Russia is winning, we ought to help Germany, and in that way let them kill as many as possible. . . .”
From here:
NATO Marches Toward Destruction "It is a Cold War that grows increasingly hotter..." https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/08/nato-marches-toward-destruction/
(Alt: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/nato-marches-toward-destruction/ri1550... )
Truman was a moron who never should have been president. Much better if Henry Wallace had stayed on the ticket as FDRs VP and been there to take over in 45. John -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 04:45:52PM -0700, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 7/9/16 1:27 AM, Steve Furlong wrote:
"The West" - an absolute disgrace to Humanity!
... he says, using a communication medium invented by The West.
And empowered by freedom and free speech invented and protected by The West, and the US in particular. It seems likely that the degree of free speech in other Western countries came about, was extended, and/or was protected because of the US First Amendment. There was some existing precedent,
Indeed, I'm pretty sure an "ug" emitted from the lips of at least one cave man.
Which isn't to say that the US is perfect.
At least they invented free speech.
participants (8)
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John -
John Newman
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juan -
Stephen D. Williams -
Steve Furlong -
Tomasz Rola -
Zenaan Harkness -
Александр