I've been watching this shit throwing match between Troy and Cari for the last few days and, let me just say, both of you need to GROW THE FUCK UP. I don't give a rats ass if Cari is a 'real Indian' or just some crazy bitch pretending to be one and I don't give a fuck if Troy is offended by her pretending. This list is NOT the place for this bullshit. Get a room and fuck it out or just take it off-list but keep us the hell out of it.
On 2014-01-19 09:58, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:
I've been watching this shit throwing match between Troy and Cari for the last few days and, let me just say, both of you need to GROW THE FUCK UP. I don't give a rats ass if Cari is a 'real Indian' or just some crazy bitch pretending to be one and I don't give a fuck if Troy is offended by her pretending.
Girl enters list that discusses intellectual topics. I assert that private property rights are good in actual private property, such as places that belong to some people and not to other people, because the alternative is mass murder, but the case for intellectual is considerably less convincing. Girl replies "Private property is wicked. Furthermore I am a native, therefore I am right and you are wrong, because of the horrible crime committed against my people." Confirming the standard stereotype of girls in engineering. An actual native american, probably male, gets pissed because this faux indian is an embarrassment to actual Indians. It would perhaps have been more entertaining had her argument been that private property oppresses women.
--On Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:37 AM +1000 "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:
An actual native american, probably male,
You mean you using sockpuppet.
gets pissed because this faux indian is an embarrassment to actual Indians.
.
It would perhaps have been more entertaining had her argument been that private property oppresses women.
At 04:37 PM 1/18/2014, James A. Donald wrote:
Girl enters list that discusses intellectual topics.
Sorry, James, but we really don't need sexist or racist trolling here. This is Cypherpunks, and we've got plenty of appropriate things to troll about. I was driving the other day, and caught part of Obama's weasel-speech about how he's issuing orders to the NSA not to get caught so blatantly. Had to turn it off, because throwing things at the radio while driving isn't safe. I might have been able to sit through more of it if I'd been home on my couch with enough beer to do the "drink if he says something blatantly ridiculous" bingo game, or at the bar at Shmoocon or something.
On 2014-01-19 17:16, Bill Stewart wrote:
Sorry, James, but we really don't need sexist or racist trolling here.
One way accommodation, wherein men accommodate female differences, but females do not accommodate male differences, is dysfunctional, as demonstrated by Katherine Hultgreen, and also admits the inequality that it denies. If you call it racism and sexism when characteristically male standards are upheld, this implicitly admits that women are different from men, and therefore in some activities and aspects inferior, while in others, the properly feminine sphere, superior. If women are equal to men, then they deserve to be called out if they fail to live up to characteristically male standards. If on the other hand, women are not equal to men, and require special treatment, http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/11/13/special-needs-employees/ then they deserve a condescending pat on the head when they show up in male forums and need to be gently shepherded to a properly feminine environment, where they will not feel so out of place. You are trying to have your cake and eat it as well, one way equality, wherein women are not only equal to men, but more equal than men. If you call it racism and sexism when characteristically male standards are upheld, this has the unfortunate result that male behavior gets replaced by female behavior: Whereupon you get Katherine Hultgreen doing an Amelia Earhart. If feminism is the principle that women are equal to men, cannot be the Katherine Hultgreen/Amelia Earhart principle that women get special treatment to accommodate their failings and weaknesses. That path does not work. Characteristically male environments are characteristically male because of characteristically male virtues. Characteristically female environment are characteristically female because of characteristically female virtues. If we are to have integration without social decay, then females entering a characteristically male environment need to live up to difficult, stressful, uncomfortable, and unfamiliar standards, as Katherine Hultgreen demonstrated in the most dramatic and terrible possible fashion, and Cari Matchet demonstrated in a more frivolous and amusing fashion.
On 01/19/2014 10:22 AM, James A. Donald wrote:
Characteristically male environments are characteristically male because of characteristically male
On 2014-01-19 19:36, Mike Gogulski wrote:
privilege.
If it was privilege, it would not have been necessary to kill Amelia Earhart and Kara Hultgreen in the effort to manufacture poster girls.
Dude. Oh. That's totally right. Natch. Got it now. "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:
On 01/19/2014 10:22 AM, James A. Donald wrote:
Characteristically male environments are characteristically male because of characteristically male
On 2014-01-19 19:36, Mike Gogulski wrote:
privilege.
If it was privilege, it would not have been necessary to kill Amelia Earhart and Kara Hultgreen in the effort to manufacture poster girls.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2014, James A. Donald wrote:
On 01/19/2014 10:22 AM, James A. Donald wrote:
Characteristically male environments are characteristically male because of characteristically male
On 2014-01-19 19:36, Mike Gogulski wrote:
privilege.
If it was privilege, it would not have been necessary to kill Amelia Earhart and Kara Hultgreen in the effort to manufacture poster girls.
I [don't] hate to be the Bringer of Reality (tm) to you, but: - Amelia Earhart is a still un-caused crash. They only recently found the island she crashed (and apparently lived on for some time prior to dying on it), and work to raise the parts of her plane which have been found and excavate the island itself have not yet, AFAIK, begun (lack of financing I believe). - Kara Hultgreen died because she was a crappy pilot who was rated *despite* having 4 disqualifiers because she was the first and the "service" needed the positive PR of having First Female Combat Pilot (in an ironic twist, she also gave them their much needed First Female Combat Pilot Death In Action). She fucked up her carrier landing by stalling an engine (in a manner that EVRYONE had been warned about) on her failed landing attempt, resulting in an unstable aircraft[1] that had a previously known design flaw[2] becoming almost-but-not-quite-unflyable. Then she finished herself off by trying to use her afterburner to do a go-round. Her #2 ejected them when he realized she was trying to kill them, but his ejection and hers were not simultaneous: he got out still pointing over the hosrizon - unfortunately, she was pointed at the water when her ejection started .4sec after her #2, and she hit the water pretty hard. Probably *not* an open Casket for "Revlon" ;-) Hultgreen should *never* have been allowed to get a combat endorsement to her Crappy Pilots Association Air-Worthiness License. She killed *herself* //Alif -- Those who make peaceful change impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. An American Spring is coming: one way or another.
On 2014-01-20 05:48, J.A. Terranson wrote:
- Amelia Earhart is a still un-caused crash.
The reason they would not let her pilot the plane on the flight for which she got the ticker tape parade is that she could not safely pilot the plane for which she got the ticker tape parade. That they would not let her fly it, despite extreme pressure to do so, suggests that if the had let her fly it, she would have gotten killed all the faster. If unsafe to let her fly one plane, unsafe to let her fly another very similar plane.
- Kara Hultgreen died because she was a crappy pilot
They have been looking for a female pilot for the navy ever since they had aircraft carriers. In all these years, could not find one, so, under ever increasing pressure to include women, decided to go with Kara Hultgreen, because she was the best, which is to say the least bad they could find. PC killed Amelia Earhart, and PC killed Kara Hultgreen. Similarly, successful businesses stuff all their female executives into HR, keeping them away from decisions that could screw up the business. In due course, we will have non flying navy pilots with same uniforms and honors as flying navy pilots, and all the female pilots will be non flying. All the naval pilots that actually fly will be given girly uniforms. Emasculation will be required in order to provide a more female friendly environment for the non flying pilots.
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, James A. Donald wrote:
On 2014-01-20 05:48, J.A. Terranson wrote:
- Amelia Earhart is a still un-caused crash.
The reason they would not let her pilot the plane on the flight for which she got the ticker tape parade is that she could not safely pilot the plane for which she got the ticker tape parade. That they would not let her fly it, despite extreme pressure to do so, suggests that if the had let her fly it, she would have gotten killed all the faster.
Or that mere sexism prevented her from flying a plan that she was more than capable of flying: since neither of were there at the time, we will never know for sure - making this moronic line of discussion moot.
- Kara Hultgreen died because she was a crappy pilot
They have been looking for a female pilot for the navy ever since they had aircraft carriers.
Total, utter bullshit, and you KNOW that to be so! Women were no allowed to even apply to a combat MOS until the 1990s!
In all these years, could not find one, so, under ever increasing pressure to include women, decided to go with Kara Hultgreen, because she was the best,
Really? You have first hand personal knowledge that this is why she was chosen? Proof that she wasnt chosen because she happened to be the first woman who asked for that MOS, and gave them a chance to prove their PC creds by agreeing to let her try and qualify? No, you don't. And neither do I: both of can speculate, nothing more.
PC killed Amelia Earhart,
Pure speculation.
and PC killed Kara Hultgreen.
For this claim there is a lot more evidence: PC was a factor in her death, since they certified her as a competent pilot on a plane she clearly could not fly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for PC: I loathe PC! But it's just as bad as the mutually stupid universal declarations you are making.
Similarly, successful businesses stuff all their female executives into HR, keeping them away from decisions that could screw up the business.
You need to wake up! Look around, there are a lot of female ceo's of big business today. Even Fortune 100 companies.
In due course, we will have non flying navy pilots with same uniforms and honors as flying navy pilots, and all the female pilots will be non flying. All the naval pilots that actually fly will be given girly uniforms. Emasculation will be required in order to provide a more female friendly environment for the non flying pilots.
This is just your fear of feminization coming out: what's the matter, did the local priest play with you when you were a kid, or was you father a "man's man" who ran when someone looked at him mean? What the fuck are you overcompensating for? This almost looks like Homosexual Panic. //Alif -- Those who make peaceful change impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. An American Spring is coming: one way or another.
James A. Donald wrote:
Similarly, successful businesses stuff all their female executives into HR, keeping them away from decisions that could screw up the business.
J.A. Terranson wrote:
You need to wake up! Look around, there are a lot of female ceo's of big business today. Even Fortune 100 companies.
And was HP a *successful* business once it appointed a female CEO? Businesses appoint female CEOs for political reasons, and it usually has a bad outcome.
This is just your fear of feminization coming out
Compare photos of men of 1950, with photos of men today. We *are* being forcibly feminized. It is unpleasant, distressing, humiliating, degrading, and contrary to our natures. Either that, or something in the water is making testosterone levels and sperm counts drop like a stone. You might blame evil pollution by evil capitalists rather than forced feminization, but undeniably something really bad is happening. And the fact that no one is paying attention suggests that the problem is forced feminization rather than some mystery pollutant. If it was likely that it is plastic softeners in the drinking water, we would have more official scientists making a officially big deal about it than about global warming.
We're coming at this from the wrong angle. We need a plane that flies women, not a woman to fly a plane!
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 7:20 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l@odewijk.nl> wrote:
We're coming at this from the wrong angle.
We need a plane that flies women, not a woman to fly a plane!
with that heated discussion at a close, is this also the forum where i can complain about earthhumans? those meat bags are such buggy bastards! wetware all sorts of tangled with antiquated and historical predispositions... how can anyone logically reason in such a thing?? (those bulbous chemical networks balanced atop meat bag suits, that is. i forget what they call them, :) best regards, except to earthhumans.
Dnia poniedziałek, 20 stycznia 2014 11:17:58 Lodewijk andré de la porte pisze:
On Jan 20, 2014 5:19 AM, "coderman" <coderman@gmail.com> wrote:
except to earthhumans.
As opposed to Marshumans. Their nonexistence is perfectly pleasing.
Does that imply Marshumans eat hmallows by the fire? Are we eating some magical Mars-originating stuff that magically appeared on earth at some point in time? ;) -- Pozdr rysiek
Yes... "Non existence" *shifty eyes* On Monday, January 20, 2014, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l@odewijk.nl> wrote:
On Jan 20, 2014 5:19 AM, "coderman" <coderman@gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'coderman@gmail.com');>> wrote:
except to earthhumans.
As opposed to Marshumans. Their nonexistence is perfectly pleasing.
-- Kelly John Rose Toronto, ON Phone: +1 647 638-4104 Twitter: @kjrose Skype: kjrose.pr Gtalk: iam@kjro.se MSN: msn@kjro.se Document contents are confidential between original recipients and sender.
F-14A Mishap Investigation Report full text http://www.panix.com/~baldwin/hultgreen_mir.txt --dan
Let's experimentally determine whether science qualifies as troll food: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/823 --dan
then they deserve a condescending pat on the head when they show up in male forums and need to be gently shepherded to a properly feminine environment, where they will not feel so out of place.
Would love to see you work in an office filled with women. Nursing is pretty much all female I believe. Reg. Hultgreen, anacdotal. Reg. Cari, no idea what you're talking about. 2014/1/19 <dan@geer.org>
Let's experimentally determine whether science qualifies as troll food:
"diffusion tensor imaging in a sample of 949 youths (aged 8–22 y, 428 males and 521 females)" So, what you train more in you get better at. Go figure! There brains were already affected by the roles given to them in society.
On 2014-01-20 01:16, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
Reg. Hultgreen, anacdotal. Reg. Cari, no idea what you're talking about.
In an effort to manufacture a poster girl, Hultgreen was required to attempt to land on an aircraft carrier, and in due course, killed herself, demonstrating why every naval pilot is male. You can affirmative action women to all sorts of jobs, and furtively have a white male do the actual job, but the reason all naval pilots are males is that when you affirmative action someone to naval pilot and expect them to land on a carrier, they die. There is room in an office for males to do the actual work, but there is no room in a warplane for a second pilot to do the actual piloting. You can put girls in the army, and all that immediately happens is that the march slows down, but you cannot put girls in the naval airforce, and make the carriers bigger and the planes slower. In a plane built for male abilities, landing on a ship built for male abilities, they have to fly like males. And, of course, they cannot. They tested her, in testing she repeated made errors that would have killed her. She was the best female pilot available, so they had her do real landings regardless, so that they could have a poster girl. Amelia Earhart was initially given a ticker tape parade and a meeting with the president for being flown across the Atlantic like a sack of potatoes by a male pilot, but the cognitive dissonance being too great, such a poster girl attracting ridicule, they eventually had Amelia Earhart and Kara Hultgreen attempt to perform difficult piloting tasks for real, killing them. In due course we will have female naval pilots with same uniforms as male pilots. The unisex uniforms will be made girly. The traditions will be made girlie or abolished. Male camraderie will be forbidden. References to nuts and bolts will be forbidden as excessively sexist. But the female naval pilots will not actually be required to fly carrier planes.
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, James A. Donald wrote:
In an effort to manufacture a poster girl, Hultgreen was required to attempt to land on an aircraft carrier, and in due course, killed herself, demonstrating why every naval pilot is male.
Actually, Revlon was merely a shitty pilot. Her orginal callsign was "Hulk", because she had almost superhuman strength and endurance (she belonged in a combat position with the Army, not the Air Force - she'd have been a perfect Infantrywoman). She earned the "Revlon" moniker for applying heavy makeup prior to a USAF interview which was, ironically, touting her as the first woman to be rated for combat air missions. Her crappy flying skills do demonstrate that *all* women are incapable of flying in combat, it proves only that *she* was incapable of flying (in or out of a) combat mission,
You can affirmative action women to all sorts of jobs, and furtively have a white male do the actual job, but the reason all naval pilots are males is that when you affirmative action someone to naval pilot and expect them to land on a carrier, they die.
Agreed - when you A/A anyone into such a position where they are unsafe and unqualified, they die. It has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with being capable of doing the job (flying, shooting at others in the bushes in front of you, whatever).
There is room in an office for males to do the actual work, but there is no room in a warplane for a second pilot to do the actual piloting.
This is a non-sensical statement because it is sitting on a broken foundation. It defies the basic laws of the universe to make such an assumption (since it is not evidence based, it is actually just mere speculation).
You can put girls in the army, and all that immediately happens is that the march slows down,
Bullshit. The NYPD Academy started admitting women (ok, girls when they are just 18) in 1980 IIRC: the NYPD Academy *was* (it changed several years later after a *male* complained (and sued too I think) that it was "hazing" new recruits by treating them as hard in school has they would be tested on the streets of New York. A court agreed, and *bam*, the "abusive" behaviour stopped. Personally, I didnt think it was abusive, I thought it was absolutely necessary to screen applicants who couldn't cut it in the real world. Plenty of women graduated from "abusive" Academy classes in the intervening years, and many went on to be decent cops. Some went on to be dripping bags of tears too: just like the "men".
They tested her, in testing she repeated made errors that would have killed her.
Precisely. She was not *qualified* to do the work for which they wanted positive publicity - she was unqualified because she was a shitty pilot, not because she was female.
She was the best female pilot available, so they had her do real landings regardless, so that they could have a poster girl.
Yes. They should have waited for a more competent female pilot, and placed her in a position for which she was more qualified. Maybe for the #2 seat???
Amelia Earhart was initially given a ticker tape parade and a meeting with the president for being flown across the Atlantic like a sack of potatoes by a male pilot, but the cognitive dissonance being too great, such a poster girl attracting ridicule, they eventually had Amelia Earhart and Kara Hultgreen attempt to perform difficult piloting tasks for real, killing them.
"they" didnt have Earhardt do anything: she wanted to go, and she was likely fully qualified. A lot of strangeness surrounded her loss, most of this strangeness appears to suggest she had a partial radio failure which stopped her ground support team from contacting her to bring her in in low visibility weather (no radars then, at lt least, not for planes.
In due course we will have female naval pilots with same uniforms as male pilots. The unisex uniforms will be made girly.
Really? I suspect the flight suits will remain as they are: built for the requirements of the pilot in the environment of a specific aircraft. Why would they make the flight suits "girly"? That makes no sense.
The traditions will be made girlie or abolished.
Oh My GAWD!!!! Nooooo.... Say it aint so! <barf> This is conjectural bullshit, and you are smart enough that you *should* know it*!
Male camraderie will be forbidden.
Depending on the definition of "male comraderie", maybe so. Maybe it *needs* to change anyway?
References to nuts and bolts will be forbidden as excessively sexist.
Conjecture. Now, if your problem is that you feel intimidated talking about your dick in front of a femal compatriot, that an issue for you and the air force headshinker.
But the female naval pilots will not actually be required to fly carrier planes.
Nobody is *required* to fly carrier planes today! They don't want pilots who don't *want* [very badly] to fly carrier based craft, as these people will inevitibly fuck up at some point, killing the pilot, plane, and possibly others as well. You have to volunteer *before* you can attempt to get rated for carrier based aviation. Get a grip man! //Alif -- Those who make peaceful change impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. An American Spring is coming: one way or another.
From: James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> To: J.A. Terranson <measl@mfn.org> On 2014-01-20 06:23, J.A. Terranson wrote:
They should have waited for a more competent female pilot, They have been waiting over sixty years.
Jacqueline Cochrane was said to be very good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqueline_Cochran She figured prominently in Chuck Yeager's autobiography, as I recall. Jim Bell
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 06:06:00AM +1000, James A. Donald wrote:
You can put girls in the army, and all that immediately happens is that the march slows down
Ah, fond memories of the 12k march back from my BCT FTX, which I did on an ankle that I'd sprained twice in three days, making my way from the rear of the column to the very front as males and females alike fell back from fatigue. (If you sing cadence louder, the rest of you hurts less.) Herp derp exception that proves the rule; your argument is invalid. Cheers, --mlp
James, you are a tough man to argue with. So here's a big hug and sloppy kiss. The male stench is fantasticly seductive. Fuck me, big boy. Those women, what can you do with them except kill them, rape them, steal their money, use them as maids, and cum buckets, abuse moms and sisters like your dad and uncles and brothers and other spoiled assholes do, blame the damn women (and their minority stigmatized) for all kinds of shit an insecure man would cut your throat for doing. We men have got to be careful to avoid pregnancy, so lets abuse little boys, bring them into our society, teach them to hate women and minorities, never forget who's boss liar and cheater and murderer and genocider and defouler of the planet. White men who love trashing anybody unlike them, that's the ticket. That there is no such thing as a pure white man doesn't matter, and that most men of all colors are completely dependent upon women and servants, is changing the subject, the main point your argument is belief in this purity of white manhood is the highest code of big talkers. At 03:06 PM 1/19/2014, you wrote:
On 2014-01-20 01:16, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
Reg. Hultgreen, anacdotal. Reg. Cari, no idea what you're talking about.
In an effort to manufacture a poster girl, Hultgreen was required to attempt to land on an aircraft carrier, and in due course, killed herself, demonstrating why every naval pilot is male.
You can affirmative action women to all sorts of jobs, and furtively have a white male do the actual job, but the reason all naval pilots are males is that when you affirmative action someone to naval pilot and expect them to land on a carrier, they die. There is room in an office for males to do the actual work, but there is no room in a warplane for a second pilot to do the actual piloting.
You can put girls in the army, and all that immediately happens is that the march slows down, but you cannot put girls in the naval airforce, and make the carriers bigger and the planes slower. In a plane built for male abilities, landing on a ship built for male abilities, they have to fly like males. And, of course, they cannot. They tested her, in testing she repeated made errors that would have killed her. She was the best female pilot available, so they had her do real landings regardless, so that they could have a poster girl.
Amelia Earhart was initially given a ticker tape parade and a meeting with the president for being flown across the Atlantic like a sack of potatoes by a male pilot, but the cognitive dissonance being too great, such a poster girl attracting ridicule, they eventually had Amelia Earhart and Kara Hultgreen attempt to perform difficult piloting tasks for real, killing them.
In due course we will have female naval pilots with same uniforms as male pilots. The unisex uniforms will be made girly. The traditions will be made girlie or abolished. Male camraderie will be forbidden. References to nuts and bolts will be forbidden as excessively sexist. But the female naval pilots will not actually be required to fly carrier planes.
"It's a Man's World, and It Always Will Be" Camille Paglia http://ideas.time.com/2013/12/16/its-a-mans-world-and-it-always-will-be/prin... [ note URL -> the Munk Debates at the bottom for more ]
participants (14)
-
Anonymous Remailer (austria) -
Bill Stewart -
coderman -
dan＠geer.org -
J.A. Terranson -
James A. Donald -
Jim Bell -
John Young -
Juan Garofalo -
Kelly John Rose -
Lodewijk andré de la porte -
Meredith L. Patterson -
Mike Gogulski -
rysiek