On October 28, 2015 8:09:08 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l@odewijk.nl> wrote:

New threat, this is offtopic.

[Snipping as needed. Warning: it is lengthy.] I facepalmed so hard when I read this. I support and agree with both Razer's and Juan's replies to this post; I just didn't want to offend the netiquette-sensitive by posting +1 to both replies. All of these:

I feel like you are ignoring the cost of time, underestimating people's expenses, and arbitrarily hate cars and meat.

For most "the latest iCrap" is not a significant expense. 200 euro's a month or so (phone + laptop) is quite doable, especially given how much time one spends with iCrap devices. Resale value is nonzero, too, so really, quite doable.

I know how to fix/repurpose most things. Actually fixing things often doesn't compare favorably with just buying a new one - time spent at 10 euro's per hour makes most repairs very borderline effective.

Totally miss the point. Totally. You seem to be speaking from a position where it sounds like money is the focal point, the most important factor. To me, it is the least important part of the equation. Ever heard of voluntary simplicity? It's a concept I have embraced for all of my adult life. I don't have much money because I don't want it. I don't use many resources because I like to tread lightly upon the earth, and I don't think it's fair if I have an abundance of something while others have none. I'm not a capitalist, never have been nor will I ever be. I agree with Razor's view of capitalism. Juan's, too. Nor do I have a god delusion that lets me shit all over the earth, be horrible to people and do whatever else I want as long as I say the magic words in a prayer and put an offering of filthy lucre in a basket for absolution. This is the only shot I get at not being a totally useless garbage person. My conscience won't allow me to mindlessly consume at the expense of the planet and other people. I'm not sorry for that. One aspect of the human cost of "shiny new crap" has already been pointed out by Razer. I wasn't talking about the monetary cost to you (although paying €200/mo for a phone and laptop is incredibly unnecessary, imho. But I like to have control over the operating systems of my devices, and see no reason to upgrade hardware to newer models if they're in good working order and meeting my needs.) Do you get no sense of personal satisfaction from repairing something that would have gone into a landfill? Or of building something exactly how you want it instead of buying overpriced, pressed particleboard crap that is toxic to both humans and the environment? Where is your hacker ethic, man?

...

- Freecycle, trade with others

Trade what? I do secondhand shopping and selling when appropriate, that should be good too.

More appropriate is the question, what wouldn't you trade? Things you no longer use or need for something you do. Skills you have, for some your neighbor has (can be as simple as I'll help you repair and paint your porch, you help me sow and plant my garden.) Trading child/ elder/ pet care, shared meals, errands... do you really have no friends or neighbors with whom you do this?

...

- Shop at second hand and thrift stores for most things.

Do, for the things it makes sense for. It takes more effort as you frequently will not find what you were looking for. (protip: great for amplifiers and speakers)

The list of what one wouldn't buy secondhand is much shorter. Yes, you can go into the Gap and buy a pair of pants for €70... but why would you want to? So what if it takes me an hour to look through thrift store racks - for that $70, I'd come out with several pairs of perfectly nice pants, skirts, shirts... it's madness. I have a dresser for which I paid $20 at a thrift store, over 20 years ago. It is made of sturdy, solid wood and in excellent condition, has survived cross-country trips and countless local moves. Good luck with your Walmart junk! That hour I "wasted" saving hundreds of $ or € in a thrift store? I'll get it back by using commute time to read and catch up on things while taking the bus or train. You'd be stuck driving in traffic (if you lived in my city; not sure how it is where you live), all stressed out. What I don't buy used: undergarments, pillows, etc. But I won't ever buy them at Walmart, either.

...

- Think before you buy. Try to support true fair trade/fair wages and buy locally whenever possible. Hint: it's usually possible.

Fair trade/wages are determined by the capitalist market, not by me. I'm simply not that arrogant. If you don't believe in markts you have more work cut out for you than just buying fair trade branded products. (Protip: fairtrade is just another way for things to be shiny)

No. That's why I said *true* fair trade, a living fucking wage. Not a bag of coffee from a corporate behemoth with a fake stamp on it. Please, tell me you knew that and are just being cheeky?

Buying local is even more meaningless. If transport costs do not outweigh production costs, go ferry it in from Australia, China, Chile, etc. You're making the efficient choice by doing so.

So are you saying that you're okay with people working in slave labor conditions & being paid subhuman wages, polluting the atmosphere by transporting this stuff for thousands of miles... instead of supporting the local businesses in your own community, if the price is right? I can't even answer this. Not without flaming. I can't.

Public transport or Zip Carring add to stress, cost more time, are not reliable and are not portable storage. I'd like an electric car, but the initial purchase is so high it skews things like tax and insurance.

Idk why you hate cars so much. They're pretty damn useful, give you lots of freedom and independence, and just help you get around so much better than public transport. Their prices also compare with other forms of transport.

(bikes are slow and only really work in villages or compatible cities)

I don't intrinsically hate cars. As was already mentioned, does everyone really need one (or more) of them, though? Your CBA is flawed because, again, you're only thinking of yourself. Your convenience, your money. There is an entire world around you. You could start by cutting back on the amount of damage you do to it. Public transport sucks sometimes, no doubt. Get involved to make it better. It's not wasted time if you use it to read, learn something new, chat with someone, or post random bullshit to public internet lists ;) On nice days, biking is good exercise for those who are able. Most of us don't get enough exercise as it is.

Preparing my own food is a waste of time, other people are cheaper, mass production is cheaper, I'm very mediocre at cooking.

It is not ANY of these things. Use that time on the bus to learn how to cook basic stuff! Cook on the weekend while hanging out with friends/family or rocking out to music and make your lunches and dinner main dishes for the entire next week. How is that not saving time, money and being good for your health?

Going vegan is an interesting choice, all evidence points to it being much much much better for the environment, etc.

It is, and much better for your health as well (not to mention, better for the animals!)

but meat is still quite affordable and quite complimentary to meals. If it truly were 100x easier on the environment I'd expect to see that in the price, and I hardly do. I assume there's some sort of sponsoring going on, and until it stops I'll keep on eating delicious and healthy meat.

If the meat industry wasn't subsidized, you'd be paying $20/lb for hamburger. If you're truly interested, read Diet for a New America by John Robbins (who was heir to The Baskin-Robbins ice cream fortune and walked away from it all to lead a vegan, ethical life.) It has America in the title but is applicable to all (we are just among the worst offenders, as with most things.) There are several documentaries that show the horrors of factory farming; I'll list some if you'd like. Not only is it barbaric, it is extremely unhealthy for you.

Razer mentioned a TV, I don't own one.

Razer and Juan answered the rest of this with much more grace than I would. Wouldnt want my "fuck" counter to push me higher on the offensiveness list ;) -Shelley