How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow

Karl

9 Nov 2020 9 Nov '20

10:52 a.m.

Many of us have ways to make the world right, but so long as our actions can be predicted, it doesn't seem easy to pursue them, and pursuing them may have consequences. This situation is well understood by something or someone, however. That's demonstrable in the prediction. It looks to me like we have at least 2 or 3 layers of this propaganda flow control, some new, some old. Huge world impacts by people who don't believe peace is possible, and have acted on that immensely. Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation? Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.

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Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

9 Nov 9 Nov

6:39 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 05:52:02 -0500 Karl wrote:

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Many of us have ways to make the world right, but so long as our actions can be predicted, it doesn't seem easy to pursue them, and pursuing them may have consequences.

I don't think prediction is the problem but numbers. If enough people want to burn down amazon and google, the 'prediction' won't stop them.

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Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation?

how can computer programers fix a political problem?

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Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.

\0xDynamite

6:53 p.m.

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Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation?

how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks.... \0xd

Karl

7 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:55 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

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Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation?

how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

\0xd

grarpamp also mentioned mesh networks. I like how they encourage learning around radio signals.

\0xDynamite

7:08 p.m.

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how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

grarpamp also mentioned mesh networks. I like how they encourage learning around radio signals.

Small watt transmitters can help stay under the radar of the FCC. I've worked out -- in a crude form -- some of the math for sizing transmitter power that the FCC won't complain about. Two key concepts are "heat" -- overall radio power (100 units of 5W transmitters is still 500W of transmitter power) and basic transmitter output which can be controlled downward until untunable at some fixed distance (like 1mile) so that no one can tell you're doing anything. \0xd

Karl

7:12 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:08 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

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how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

grarpamp also mentioned mesh networks. I like how they encourage learning around radio signals.

Small watt transmitters can help stay under the radar of the FCC. I've worked out -- in a crude form -- some of the math for sizing transmitter power that the FCC won't complain about. Two key concepts are "heat" -- overall radio power (100 units of 5W transmitters is still 500W of transmitter power) and basic transmitter output which can be controlled downward until untunable at some fixed distance (like 1mile) so that no one can tell you're doing anything.

\0xd

if you wanted to get really sneaky, i suppose you could record emissions from some other device, play them back at a high sample rate, and encode your information in 'normal' variations in their behavior. you could probably combine multiple devices to up your ability to mimic them with some wizardry.

\0xDynamite

7:20 p.m.

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how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

if you wanted to get really sneaky, i suppose you could record emissions from some other device, play them back at a high sample rate, and encode your information in 'normal' variations in their behavior.

How do you even "record" a radio transmission? I mean, without converting into the visible spectrum first, which by the way just shows that the visible spectrum just can't be the same as the EM spectrum. It must be orthogonal to it. Cool idea though. \0xd

Karl

8:32 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:20 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

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how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

if you wanted to get really sneaky, i suppose you could record emissions from some other device, play them back at a high sample rate, and encode your information in 'normal' variations in their behavior.

How do you even "record" a radio transmission? I mean, without converting into the visible spectrum first, which by the way just shows that the visible spectrum just can't be the same as the EM spectrum. It must be orthogonal to it.

You can make an iq log with gnuradio or pothos. The featureset for it might be a little buggy, but it should be easy to shore up. You basically get a stereo audio file at an unimaginably high sample rate. Then we get to separate the signal out from the other things in the recording, so as to reproduce it. The bandwidth (range of high and low frequencies) of radio signals is far beyond that of any normal receiver, too, so you may need multiple receivers or to record the signal many times, (or ideally to learn radio engineering and join up with folks making open source sdrs). The latest post to rtl-sdr.com is about recording airplane radio transmissions to identify the craft based on its transmission hardware quirks, which is a beautiful thing to see: https://www.rtl-sdr.com/rf-fingerprinting-ads-b-signals-for-security/

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Cool idea though.

\0xd

Zenaan Harkness

10 Nov 10 Nov

4:31 a.m.

On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 03:32:19PM -0500, Karl wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:20 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

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> how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

if you wanted to get really sneaky, i suppose you could record emissions from some other device, play them back at a high sample rate, and encode your information in 'normal' variations in their behavior.

How do you even "record" a radio transmission? I mean, without converting into the visible spectrum first, which by the way just shows that the visible spectrum just can't be the same as the EM spectrum. It must be orthogonal to it.

You can make an iq log with gnuradio or pothos. The featureset for it might be a little buggy, but it should be easy to shore up. You basically get a stereo audio file at an unimaginably high sample rate.

No. Try this: s/unimaginably high/sufficient/ We need to think like engineers, not defeated conspiracists…

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Then we get to separate the signal out from the other things in the recording, so as to reproduce it.

The bandwidth (range of high and low frequencies) of radio signals is far beyond that of any normal receiver, too, so you may need multiple receivers or to record the signal many times, (or ideally to learn radio engineering and join up with folks making open source sdrs).

The latest post to rtl-sdr.com is about recording airplane radio transmissions to identify the craft based on its transmission hardware quirks, which is a beautiful thing to see: https://www.rtl-sdr.com/rf-fingerprinting-ads-b-signals-for-security/

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Cool idea though.

\0xd

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

9 Nov 9 Nov

7:30 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 12:53:38 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation?

how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

'underground' network using broadcast radio and NSA hardware? And what would you do with your 'underground' network anyway? Use it to talk to government agents? how will your 'underground' network help you when the US-jew-kristian stasi kicks down your door?

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\0xd

\0xDynamite

7:40 p.m.

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By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

'underground' network using broadcast radio and NSA hardware? And what would you do with your 'underground' network anyway? Use it to talk to government agents?

how will your 'underground' network help you when the US-jew-kristian stasi kicks down your door?

There's something wrong in your logic, Stasi: Why haven't they done so already, when I'm not even hiding? \0xd

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

7:53 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 13:40:52 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

'underground' network using broadcast radio and NSA hardware? And what would you do with your 'underground' network anyway? Use it to talk to government agents?

how will your 'underground' network help you when the US-jew-kristian stasi kicks down your door?

There's something wrong in your logic, Stasi: Why haven't they done so already, when I'm not even hiding?

Because you're a fully compliant, cookie-cutter slave. There's nothing wrong with 'my' logic - the problem is your understanding of the situation.

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\0xd

\0xDynamite

8:10 p.m.

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how will your 'underground' network help you when the US-jew-kristian stasi kicks down your door?

There's something wrong in your logic, Stasi: Why haven't they done so already, when I'm not even hiding?

Because you're a fully compliant, cookie-cutter slave.

Really? I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them. Do you?

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There's nothing wrong with 'my' logic - the problem is your understanding of the situation.

I doubt it. Quite the opposite I suggest.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

9:52 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 14:10:44 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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how will your 'underground' network help you when the US-jew-kristian stasi kicks down your door?

There's something wrong in your logic, Stasi: Why haven't they done so already, when I'm not even hiding?

Because you're a fully compliant, cookie-cutter slave.

Really? I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them. Do you?

what files are you talking about? the_bible.pdf?

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This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

dude. What do you think you're teaching me, exactly? *I* pointed out *first* that 'accountable' voting and anonimity are at odds. Learn 2 read.

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No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money.

all of the hardware is manufactured by corporations that are just arms of the government. So like I said, at the root there's only political power.

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Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit.

not sure how snowden got into the picture? Oh sorry yeah. You're ranting.

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You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech.

wut

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Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online

what do you want me to learn, exactly?

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simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work

LMAO! What 'work' are you talking about

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Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

a jew-fascist like you shouldn't badmouth his betters. Your knowledge of political philosophy is a lot worse than non-existent. Your knowledge of 'tech' is prolly just as bad.

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Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.

what 'law' are you talking about here?

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And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love)

those things are obviously against all government laws. So which law is this law you mentioned?

Karl

10:06 p.m.

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Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. what 'law' are you talking about here? And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love) those things are obviously against all government laws. So which law is this law you mentioned?

[obviously, the only law is time. even just _mentioning_ radical love is a rescuing behavior.]

\0xDynamite

10:36 p.m.

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Really? I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them. Do you?

what files are you talking about? the_bible.pdf?

Lolz, that one's legal to copy, for the most part. Why did you make a personal attack? Are you unable to use reason alone?

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This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

dude. What do you think you're teaching me, exactly? *I* pointed out *first* that 'accountable' voting and anonimity are at odds. Learn 2 read.

Regardless of your anarchist philosophy, you seek leaders. Perhaps because deep in your DNA you know these questions were already answered. So, if you have leaders, you'll want accountability.

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No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money.

all of the hardware is manufactured by corporations that are just arms of the government. So like I said, at the root there's only political power.

Corps are not just arms of the government, unless you want to talk about octopus-type arms of the all-seeing-eye. In the octopus, each arm is an individual and acts separately, but they share at least some common desire or core. It could be survival in the case of America, at this point.

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Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit.

not sure how snowden got into the picture? Oh sorry yeah. You're ranting.

You're not sure. That's a good start.

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You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech.

wut

The response of the nubile who's been caught, wanting to know how I can know something that you never revealed.

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Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online

what do you want me to learn, exactly?

Some real computer science, or at least some programming, maybe math.

...

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simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work

LMAO! What 'work' are you talking about

Mastering the tech that you say is controlled by governments, duh.

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Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

a jew-fascist like you shouldn't badmouth his betters. Your knowledge of political philosophy is a lot worse than non-existent. Your knowledge of 'tech' is prolly just as bad.

You're just being a loudmouth. Either have some real Truth, skills, or try somewhere else than cypherpunks to get relevance.

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Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.

what 'law' are you talking about here?

...
And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love)

those things are obviously against all government laws. So which law is this law you mentioned?

Tell me, punk, is the law more powerful than Man? Marxos

Karl

10:50 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:37 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

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Really? I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them. Do you?

what files are you talking about? the_bible.pdf?

Lolz, that one's legal to copy, for the most part. Why did you make a personal attack? Are you unable to use reason alone?

personal attacks is how punk-stasi is most free to communicate. i don't believe they are meant personally.

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This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

dude. What do you think you're teaching me, exactly? *I* pointed out *first* that 'accountable' voting and anonimity are at odds. Learn 2 read.

Regardless of your anarchist philosophy, you seek leaders. Perhaps because deep in your DNA you know these questions were already answered. So, if you have leaders, you'll want accountability.

you can even have accountability without leaders! re: anonymity: for example we could reduce the network time allocated to behaviors that result in harm to a consensus algorithm, challenging people who desire to transmit such traffic, to support efforts to improve that algorithm in some way.

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No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money.

all of the hardware is manufactured by corporations that are just arms of the government. So like I said, at the root there's only political power.

Corps are not just arms of the government, unless you want to talk about octopus-type arms of the all-seeing-eye. In the octopus, each arm is an individual and acts separately, but they share at least some common desire or core. It could be survival in the case of America, at this point.

to add some third viewpoint, some people describe strong coercive power as 'the real government'

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Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit.

not sure how snowden got into the picture? Oh sorry yeah. You're ranting.

You're not sure. That's a good start.

...
...
You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech.

wut

The response of the nubile who's been caught, wanting to know how I can know something that you never revealed.

...
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Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online

what do you want me to learn, exactly?

Some real computer science, or at least some programming, maybe math.

...
...
simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work

LMAO! What 'work' are you talking about

Mastering the tech that you say is controlled by governments, duh.

...
...
Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

a jew-fascist like you shouldn't badmouth his betters. Your knowledge of political philosophy is a lot worse than non-existent. Your knowledge of 'tech' is prolly just as bad.

You're just being a loudmouth. Either have some real Truth, skills, or try somewhere else than cypherpunks to get relevance.

...
...
Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.

what 'law' are you talking about here?

...
And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love)

those things are obviously against all government laws. So which law is this law you mentioned?

Tell me, punk, is the law more powerful than Man?

Marxos

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

11:03 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:36:14 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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Really? I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them. Do you?

what files are you talking about? the_bible.pdf?

Lolz, that one's legal to copy,

'legal' according to whom? Oh yeah 'legal' according to your government masters.

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for the most part. Why did you make a personal attack? Are you unable to use reason alone?

I can pretty well call you an idiot while shredding to pieces your nonsense. The 'personal attack' is just a side note, snowflake. Not to mention where is the personal attack, anyway? You are an evil theocratic nutcase.

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This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

dude. What do you think you're teaching me, exactly? *I* pointed out *first* that 'accountable' voting and anonimity are at odds. Learn 2 read.

Regardless of your anarchist philosophy, you seek leaders.

What the fuck are you taking about, son. Oh, you're changing the subject after realizing that you were 'teaching' me the very same thing *I* mentioned first.

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Perhaps because deep in your DNA you know these questions were already answered. So, if you have leaders, you'll want accountability.

what - the fuck - are you talking about. I know that the problem is the cowardly fucktards like you, your bible and your 'leaders', and I don't 'want leaders'.

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No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money.

all of the hardware is manufactured by corporations that are just arms of the government. So like I said, at the root there's only political power.

Corps are not just arms of the government,

of course they are.

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unless you want to talk about octopus-type arms of the all-seeing-eye. In the octopus, each arm is an individual and acts separately, but they share at least some common desire or core. It could be survival in the case of America, at this point.

lawl. Are you drunk? Or is that your 'religious' insanity showing again?

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Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit.

not sure how snowden got into the picture? Oh sorry yeah. You're ranting.

You're not sure. That's a good start.

I was mocking you. "I'm not sure" meant "what the fuck has snowden got to do with anything".

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You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech.

wut

The response of the nubile who's been caught, wanting to know how I can know something that you never revealed.

WUT - "wut" means what-are-you-talking-about - again. So far you've shown you don't know what you're talking about. As always. So I'm anything but a 'surprised nubile'.

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Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online

what do you want me to learn, exactly?

Some real computer science, or at least some programming, maybe math.

I know c++, python and assembler among other languages. Is that enough? Oh wait, knowing how to program computers has fuck to do with any real solution to political problems, go figure.

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simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work

LMAO! What 'work' are you talking about

Mastering the tech that you say is controlled by governments, duh.

OK, you are just another government agent parroting the lie that fucktards are 'free' because they (you) made a website with more government propaganda and know how to 'program' some javashit malware.

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Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

a jew-fascist like you shouldn't badmouth his betters. Your knowledge of political philosophy is a lot worse than non-existent. Your knowledge of 'tech' is prolly just as bad.

You're just being a loudmouth. Either have some real Truth, skills, or try somewhere else than cypherpunks to get relevance.

uh oh. I think calling out governmetn assholes like you is a relevant thing for 'cypherpunks'.

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Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.

what 'law' are you talking about here?

...
And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love)

those things are obviously against all government laws. So which law is this law you mentioned?

Tell me, punk, is the law more powerful than Man?

again, what nonsense are you babbling. Answer what law were you talking about. You can't answer because you can't even keep track of your ignorant, fascist rants. Instead of 'learning' how to 'program' a stupid ARPANET WEBSITE you should go to the library and learn political philosophy, for starters.

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Marxos

Karl

11:11 p.m.

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On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:36:14 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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You're just being a loudmouth. Either have some real Truth, skills, or try somewhere else than cypherpunks to get relevance.

truth and relevance freedom, safety, history, transparency, community

Karl

8:26 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:31 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 12:53:38 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation?

how can computer programers fix a political problem?

By making an underground network. Ad hoc, mesh networks....

'underground' network using broadcast radio and NSA hardware? And what would you do with your 'underground' network anyway? Use it to talk to government agents?

Obviously, the answer is to finally talk with people who aren't government agents.

...

how will your 'underground' network help you when the US-jew-kristian stasi kicks down your door?

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\0xd

Karl

6:59 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:40 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 05:52:02 -0500 Karl wrote:

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Many of us have ways to make the world right, but so long as our actions can be predicted, it doesn't seem easy to pursue them, and pursuing them may have consequences.

I don't think prediction is the problem but numbers. If enough people want to burn down amazon and google, the 'prediction' won't stop them.

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Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation?

how can computer programers fix a political problem?

I stand by blockchain technologies that prevent the isolation of communities and provide immutable public records. Cryptography can make votes unalterable, dialogue unhidable. Math could show clear statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for whom. But computer programers share with you the malady that problems are for 'fixing'.

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Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

7:37 p.m.

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I stand by blockchain technologies that prevent the isolation of communities and provide immutable public records.

I don't see how immutable public records help freedom. Rather they sound like more surveillance.

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Cryptography can make votes unalterable, dialogue unhidable.

you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the very opposite of anonimity.

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Math could show clear statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for whom.

but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

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But computer programers share with you the malady that problems are for 'fixing'.

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Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.

\0xDynamite

7:46 p.m.

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Cryptography can make votes unalterable, dialogue unhidable.

you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the very opposite of anonimity.

So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

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Math could show clear statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for whom.

but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power. \0xd

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

8 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 13:46:00 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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Cryptography can make votes unalterable, dialogue unhidable.

you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the very opposite of anonimity.

So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

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Math could show clear statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for whom.

but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is. Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

...

\0xd

\0xDynamite

8:20 p.m.

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So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something? Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

...

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but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.

No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit. There are also social forces driving things. Unfortunately the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the people are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used, confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one I put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn something from THEM. Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

...

Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love, ....) \0xD

Karl

8:44 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...

...
...
So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

We were mind controlled to take over the world, but we have learned to resist. Aims, like anonymity and accountability, are not contrary. They all can be accomplished together. Casting aims as contrary was a way to reduce the power of the masses.

...

...
...
...
but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.

No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in whistleblowe clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit. There are also social forces driving things. Unfortunately the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the people are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used, confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one I put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn something from THEM.

Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

...
Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love, ....)

\0xD

\0xDynamite

10:41 p.m.

...

...
...
...
So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

We were mind controlled to take over the world, but we have learned to resist.

Aims, like anonymity and accountability, are not contrary. They all can be accomplished together.

You're probably talking about the election and the voting process. I was speaking generally.

...

Casting aims as contrary was a way to reduce the power of the masses.

You're right. In theory you could achieve both with a second layer, a layer of indirection. Asking for ID to get into the voting booth, which just has to keep track that you haven't voted already and separate the act of voting, which can be anonymized by concealed ballots. \0xD

Karl

10:52 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:41 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...

...
...
...
...
So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

We were mind controlled to take over the world, but we have learned to resist.

Aims, like anonymity and accountability, are not contrary. They all can be accomplished together.

You're probably talking about the election and the voting process. I was speaking generally.

The only law is time, who holds no sides.

...

...
Casting aims as contrary was a way to reduce the power of the masses.

You're right. In theory you could achieve both with a second layer, a layer of indirection. Asking for ID to get into the voting booth, which just has to keep track that you haven't voted already and separate the act of voting, which can be anonymized by concealed ballots.

\0xD

Karl

8:49 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...

...
...
So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

...
...
...
but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.

No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit. There are also social forces driving things. Unfortunately the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the people are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used, confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one I put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be

504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .

...

respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn something from THEM.

Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

...
Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love, ....)

\0xD

\0xDynamite

9:41 p.m.

It works. But try wiki.hackerspaces.org. On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Karl wrote:

...

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...
...
...
So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

...
...
...
but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.

No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit. There are also social forces driving things. Unfortunately the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the people are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used, confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one I put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be

504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .

...
respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn something from THEM.

Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

...
Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love, ....)

\0xD

Karl

10:04 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...

It works. But try wiki.hackerspaces.org.

I don't understand what you mean by `it works`. What do you think of this terminal snippet? ``` $ curl -v https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/ * About to connect() to wiki.hackerspaces.org port 443 (#0) * Trying 212.12.52.48... * Connected to wiki.hackerspaces.org (212.12.52.48) port 443 (#0) * Initializing NSS with certpath: sql:/etc/pki/nssdb * CAfile: /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt CApath: none * SSL connection using TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 * Server certificate: * subject: CN=wiki.hackspaces.org * start date: Oct 30 01:00:18 2020 GMT * expire date: Jan 28 01:00:18 2021 GMT * common name: wiki.hackspaces.org * issuer: CN=Let's Encrypt Authority X3,O=Let's Encrypt,C=US

...

GET / HTTP/1.1 User-Agent: curl/7.29.0 Host: wiki.hackerspaces.org Accept: */*

< HTTP/1.1 504 Gateway Time-out < Server: nginx < Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:03:40 GMT < Content-Type: text/html < Content-Length: 160 < Connection: keep-alive < <html> <head><title>504 Gateway Time-out</title></head> <body> <center><h1>504 Gateway Time-out</h1></center> <hr><center>nginx</center> </body> </html> * Connection #0 to host wiki.hackerspaces.org left intact ```

...

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Karl wrote:

...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...
...
...
So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

...
...
...
but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.

No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit. There are also social forces driving things. Unfortunately the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the people are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used, confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one I put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be

504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .

...
respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn something from THEM.

Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

...
Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love, ....)

\0xD

\0xDynamite

10:48 p.m.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do, when I tried it on http rather than https, I got 301: moved permanently. When I tried known sites like mit.edu, I got a 302: moved permanently. So what should it do? On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:04 PM Karl wrote:

...

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...
It works. But try wiki.hackerspaces.org.

I don't understand what you mean by `it works`. What do you think of this terminal snippet? ``` $ curl -v https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/ * About to connect() to wiki.hackerspaces.org port 443 (#0) * Trying 212.12.52.48... * Connected to wiki.hackerspaces.org (212.12.52.48) port 443 (#0) * Initializing NSS with certpath: sql:/etc/pki/nssdb * CAfile: /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt CApath: none * SSL connection using TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 * Server certificate: * subject: CN=wiki.hackspaces.org * start date: Oct 30 01:00:18 2020 GMT * expire date: Jan 28 01:00:18 2021 GMT * common name: wiki.hackspaces.org * issuer: CN=Let's Encrypt Authority X3,O=Let's Encrypt,C=US

...
GET / HTTP/1.1 User-Agent: curl/7.29.0 Host: wiki.hackerspaces.org Accept: */*

< HTTP/1.1 504 Gateway Time-out < Server: nginx < Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:03:40 GMT < Content-Type: text/html < Content-Length: 160 < Connection: keep-alive < <html> <head><title>504 Gateway Time-out</title></head> <body> <center><h1>504 Gateway Time-out</h1></center> <hr><center>nginx</center> </body> </html> * Connection #0 to host wiki.hackerspaces.org left intact ```

...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Karl wrote:

...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...
...
...
So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

...
...
> but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.

No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit. There are also social forces driving things. Unfortunately the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the people are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used, confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one I put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be

504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .

...
respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn something from THEM.

Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

...
Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love, ....)

\0xD

Karl

10:56 p.m.

Curl performs an HTTP request, like a web browser does as the first thing when you visit a website. I didn't know you were unfamiliar with curl or I wouldn't have pasted the output to you. The output includes details that would help the administrator of wiki.hackerspaces.org relate around the issue I experience. But if you can paste your output, it would help me understand what is going on, myself, and others on the list too if they have interest. 301 and 302 mean the url is forwarding you somewhere else. It should say where else it is forwarding you to, notably in the `Location: ` header if you pass `-v`. Pass `-L` to automatically follow those redirects. On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:48 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...

Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do, when I tried it on http rather than https, I got 301: moved permanently.

When I tried known sites like mit.edu, I got a 302: moved permanently.

So what should it do?

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:04 PM Karl wrote:

...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...
It works. But try wiki.hackerspaces.org.

I don't understand what you mean by `it works`. What do you think of this terminal snippet? ``` $ curl -v https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/ * About to connect() to wiki.hackerspaces.org port 443 (#0) * Trying 212.12.52.48... * Connected to wiki.hackerspaces.org (212.12.52.48) port 443 (#0) * Initializing NSS with certpath: sql:/etc/pki/nssdb * CAfile: /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt CApath: none * SSL connection using TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 * Server certificate: * subject: CN=wiki.hackspaces.org * start date: Oct 30 01:00:18 2020 GMT * expire date: Jan 28 01:00:18 2021 GMT * common name: wiki.hackspaces.org * issuer: CN=Let's Encrypt Authority X3,O=Let's Encrypt,C=US

...
GET / HTTP/1.1 User-Agent: curl/7.29.0 Host: wiki.hackerspaces.org Accept: */*

< HTTP/1.1 504 Gateway Time-out < Server: nginx < Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:03:40 GMT < Content-Type: text/html < Content-Length: 160 < Connection: keep-alive < <html> <head><title>504 Gateway Time-out</title></head> <body> <center><h1>504 Gateway Time-out</h1></center> <hr><center>nginx</center> </body> </html> * Connection #0 to host wiki.hackerspaces.org left intact ```

...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Karl wrote:

...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

...
...
> So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes > both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you something?

Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one, you don't get the other. Get it?

...
> > but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance. > > No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.

No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit. There are also social forces driving things. Unfortunately the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the people are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used, confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one I put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be

504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .

...
respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn something from THEM.

Until then, you're just a loudmouth.

...
Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture, radical love, ....)

\0xD

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

11:13 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:48:26 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...

Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do,

OK, that coming from the fucktard who just told me to 'go learn computer science'...

Karl

11:21 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 6:14 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:48:26 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...
Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do,

OK, that coming from the fucktard who just told me to 'go learn computer science'...

anyway, we need work in both accountability and anonymity. i prefer accountability but can't succeed without anonymity.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

11:45 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:21:27 -0500 Karl wrote:

...

anyway, we need work in both accountability and anonymity. i prefer accountability but can't succeed without anonymity.

well no doubt politicians and their 'private' partners like say elon musk, need to be held accountable, which means they need to be hanged by their balls. but computer programs won't hold criminals accountable.

Karl

11:54 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 6:47 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:21:27 -0500 Karl wrote:

...
anyway, we need work in both accountability and anonymity. i prefer accountability but can't succeed without anonymity.

well no doubt politicians and their 'private' partners like say elon musk, need to be held accountable, which means they need to be hanged by their balls.

we were mind controlled to take over the world forever, and we learned to resist. obviously publically murdering powerful people produces secret militaries of the powerful and wealthy who escape we used to encourage the public execution of leaders and powerful people by rebels, so that the rebels would come together into a new government that was easy to control, but we don't need to do this any more.

...

but computer programs won't hold criminals accountable.

computer programs control the people who can't take their eyes off screens. but by accountability i just mean responsibility and transparency. as a computer programmer, i know how to set up a logging system that can't be stopped, and walk with it up to an officer misusing their power, and share the logs with a mass of people who can influence decisions in the area.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

10 Nov 10 Nov

12:28 a.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:54:51 -0500 Karl wrote:

...

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 6:47 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...
On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:21:27 -0500 Karl wrote:

...
anyway, we need work in both accountability and anonymity. i prefer accountability but can't succeed without anonymity.

well no doubt politicians and their 'private' partners like say elon musk, need to be held accountable, which means they need to be hanged by their balls.

we were mind controlled to take over the world forever, and we learned to resist.

obviously publically murdering powerful people produces secret militaries of the powerful and wealthy who escape

justice is a fundamental value and criminals must pay for their crimes. All of them. But if some escape they will think twice about their 'lifestyle'.

...

we used to encourage the public execution of leaders and powerful people by rebels, so that the rebels would come together into a new government that was easy to control, but we don't need to do this any more.

yes the current system is even worse than the previous monarchical one in which sometimes some 'monarchs' were executed like they deserved. The current system is way more toxic and the criminals at the top are never ever held accountable. obviously the rebels have to exterminate the criminals and then go home, not set up a new tyranny of their own. And if they actually are rebels, that's what they would do. On the other hand if they are wannabe tyrants like say the slave owning scum that 'founded' the US they will of course create a new government, like jefferson franklin and the rest of that non human scum did.

...

...
but computer programs won't hold criminals accountable.

computer programs control the people who can't take their eyes off screens.

but by accountability i just mean responsibility and transparency. as a computer programmer, i know how to set up a logging system that can't be stopped, and walk with it up to an officer misusing their power, and share the logs with a mass of people who can influence decisions in the area.

Karl

12:35 a.m.

email sent privately, because i'm in a state of mind where it's hard to stop emailing the list, and the cryptography link i hilited may not have been the right one so, you feel software development is bad, and are interested in preventing it? On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:29 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...

...
we were mind controlled to take over the world forever, and we learned to resist.

obviously publically murdering powerful people produces secret militaries of the powerful and wealthy who escape

justice is a fundamental value and criminals must pay for their crimes. All of them. But if some escape they will think twice about their 'lifestyle'.

I can't agree with punishment. Everyone is someone else's criminal, very seriously.

...

...
we used to encourage the public execution of leaders and powerful people by rebels, so that the rebels would come together into a new government that was easy to control, but we don't need to do this any more.

yes the current system is even worse than the previous monarchical one in which sometimes some 'monarchs' were executed like they deserved. The current system is way more toxic and the criminals at the top are never ever held accountable.

obviously the rebels have to exterminate the criminals and then go home, not set up a new tyranny of their own. And if they actually are rebels, that's what they would do.

Well, somebody steps into the mess and starts some government seeds. Fighting probably gets people emotional; they all had to communicate secretly and everything was about acting. And then it's done, but everybody learned dialogue in an environment of severe oppression. Normal dialogue is needed for peace.

...

On the other hand if they are wannabe tyrants like say the slave owning scum that 'founded' the US they will of course create a new government, like jefferson franklin and the rest of that non human scum did.

...
...
but computer programs won't hold criminals accountable.

computer programs control the people who can't take their eyes off screens.

but by accountability i just mean responsibility and transparency. as a computer programmer, i know how to set up a logging system that can't be stopped, and walk with it up to an officer misusing their power, and share the logs with a mass of people who can influence decisions in the area.

Karl

12:35 a.m.

oops, email not sent privately On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:35 PM Karl wrote:

...

email sent privately, because i'm in a state of mind where it's hard to stop emailing the list, and the cryptography link i hilited may not have been the right one

so, you feel software development is bad, and are interested in preventing it?

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:29 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...
...
we were mind controlled to take over the world forever, and we learned to resist.

obviously publically murdering powerful people produces secret militaries of the powerful and wealthy who escape

justice is a fundamental value and criminals must pay for their crimes. All of them. But if some escape they will think twice about their 'lifestyle'.

I can't agree with punishment. Everyone is someone else's criminal, very seriously.

...
...
we used to encourage the public execution of leaders and powerful people by rebels, so that the rebels would come together into a new government that was easy to control, but we don't need to do this any more.

yes the current system is even worse than the previous monarchical one in which sometimes some 'monarchs' were executed like they deserved. The current system is way more toxic and the criminals at the top are never ever held accountable.

obviously the rebels have to exterminate the criminals and then go home, not set up a new tyranny of their own. And if they actually are rebels, that's what they would do.

Well, somebody steps into the mess and starts some government seeds. Fighting probably gets people emotional; they all had to communicate secretly and everything was about acting. And then it's done, but everybody learned dialogue in an environment of severe oppression. Normal dialogue is needed for peace.

...
On the other hand if they are wannabe tyrants like say the slave owning scum that 'founded' the US they will of course create a new government, like jefferson franklin and the rest of that non human scum did.

...
...
but computer programs won't hold criminals accountable.

computer programs control the people who can't take their eyes off screens.

but by accountability i just mean responsibility and transparency. as a computer programmer, i know how to set up a logging system that can't be stopped, and walk with it up to an officer misusing their power, and share the logs with a mass of people who can influence decisions in the area.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

1:34 a.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 19:35:23 -0500 Karl wrote:

...

oops, email not sent privately

heh - I'm replying on-list. It's the same stuff we discuss all the time but it's still important.

...

so, you feel software development is bad, and are interested in preventing it?

no, I don't think development of actually useful software is bad, and there is a lot of great free software. What I think is counterproductive is the idea that serious political problems can or will be fixed with software. Now, I could be completely wrong from a practical point view, except that political changes in the last 30 have been a disaster and cryptography and the arpanet have not stopped them but rather made the changes even more toxic. I'm not preventing anyone from writing an 'app' that would overthrow government or whatever. If that could be done, then sombebody should have done it by now. But in reality what we see is that the arpanet and computers are creating the worst kind of automatized tyranny. While Jim Bell spams more elon-musk-technofascist-propaganda.

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:29 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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we were mind controlled to take over the world forever, and we learned to resist.

obviously publically murdering powerful people produces secret militaries of the powerful and wealthy who escape

justice is a fundamental value and criminals must pay for their crimes. All of them. But if some escape they will think twice about their 'lifestyle'.

I can't agree with punishment. Everyone is someone else's criminal, very seriously.

I'm not talking about punishment, but justice. For instance, thieves have to return what they stole. You wouldn't see that as punishment would you? Or do you think it's 'unfair' for a thief to return the loot to his legitimate owner? Then you have people who are responsible for kidnapping, torturing, murdering, etc. Those people also have to pay damages. And that's not 'punishment' either.

Zenaan Harkness

4:55 a.m.

On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 08:13:21PM -0300, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:48:26 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do,

OK, that coming from the fucktard who just told me to 'go learn computer science'...

Your quick judgement (no nuance, no question, assuming you knew what the words meant) does you know favours. I know, because I've done this so many times myself (a lot in real life). Brown paper bags...

Zenaan Harkness

9 Nov 9 Nov

11:51 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 05:00:03PM -0300, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 13:46:00 -0600 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

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Cryptography can make votes unalterable, dialogue unhidable.

you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the very opposite of anonimity.

So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power goes both ways. Pick one.

This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?

Also (but) empowerment of ornary folks. It's that "epowerment of ordinary folks" which is the moral foundation to facilitate their private comms, private and anon travel etc. Privacy for privacies sake is abstract, whereas an individual exercising his right to privacy is an act by an elector. Systems which provide for the possibility of holding those we elect to account should be in play, as well as systems which provide for holding to account those who act in corrupt ways within our political systems, be it voting or any other individual or collective act. So yes, how do we protect and facilitate individual rights, but also yes, how do we hold to account those who corrupt "our political institutions", that is our group constructs (shared common delusions) of aggregated or delegated power.

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Math could show clear statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for whom.

but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

No these things are not just controlled by political power.

I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.

Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the political powers that control its practical application.

Empowerment of the political class, to the detriment or exlusion of we doplorables, is toxic, yes. Speaking of maths and utility, some time series graphs and analysis nicely exposing vote fraud: "It Defies Logic": Scientist Finds Telltale Signs Of Election Fraud After Analyzing Mail-In Ballot Data https://www.zerohedge.com/political/it-defies-logic-scientist-finds-telltale...

Karl

10 Nov 10 Nov

12:07 a.m.

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Speaking of maths and utility, some time series graphs and analysis nicely exposing vote fraud:

"It Defies Logic": Scientist Finds Telltale Signs Of Election Fraud After Analyzing Mail-In Ballot Data https://www.zerohedge.com/political/it-defies-logic-scientist-finds-telltale...

Cool culture of fraud accusations you made, rooted in behaviors also being accused of fraud. Really, I am very very flattered and feel a little responsible. Let's start reliably and publically logging and auditing things, to prevent fraud, now.

grarpamp

9:31 a.m.

On 11/9/20, Karl wrote:

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Let's start reliably and publically logging and auditing things, to prevent fraud, now.

Cry all you want, but you're not going to get politicians to log their secret conversations for you, ever. Those are the convos in which you and humanity get fucked, and they get more power. It is literal suicide for them to be open and logged and they will not do it, instead they will twist and use your log ideas to log you. The only fix is to downsize them, globally, permanently, you don't need them, wean off that teat.

Karl

9 Nov 9 Nov

8:24 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:38 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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I stand by blockchain technologies that prevent the isolation of communities and provide immutable public records.

I don't see how immutable public records help freedom. Rather they sound like more surveillance.

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Cryptography can make votes unalterable, dialogue unhidable.

you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the very opposite of anonimity.

I see you expressing some of the things you usually express. I don't believe your assumption here is true: you can make votes unalterable and not identify people. I'm not a cryptographer.

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Math could show clear statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for whom.

but all those things are controlled by political power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at a global scale for instance.

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But computer programers share with you the malady that problems are for 'fixing'.

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Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

10:32 p.m.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 15:24:30 -0500 Karl wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:38 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the very opposite of anonimity.

I see you expressing some of the things you usually express. I don't believe your assumption here is true: you can make votes unalterable and not identify people. I'm not a cryptographer.

even if there's some crypto trick to do something that looks kinda anonymous, you still have to identify which people are 'authorized' to vote. Authority being of course the keyword here. In reality voting is a wholly statist mechanism that takes for granted the 'authority' of the state or other mafia and the absurd idea that mob majority rule has any legitimacy at all. If we want to fix the current political problems it may be a good idea to first identify them.

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'underground' network using broadcast radio and NSA hardware? And what would you do with your 'underground' network anyway? Use it to talk to government agents?

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Obviously, the answer is to finally talk with people who aren't government agents.

Yeah, but how do you know who is an agent in an 'underground' and (hopefully) anonymous network? Anyway, an actually anonymous network may weaken the power of govcorp somewhat but it's hardly a panacea. And what I was getting at is that writing programs is pointless if people don't use the programs. So even if you had a working design for say an anonymous network, it woud still have to be 'deployed', which is something the users themselves would have to do. Which in turn requires the users to be aware of various technical and political issues, et cetera.

Karl

10:46 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:33 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 15:24:30 -0500 Karl wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:38 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the very opposite of anonimity.

I see you expressing some of the things you usually express. I don't believe your assumption here is true: you can make votes unalterable and not identify people. I'm not a cryptographer.

even if there's some crypto trick to do something that looks kinda anonymous, you still have to identify which people are 'authorized' to vote. Authority being of course the keyword here. In reality voting is a wholly statist mechanism that takes for granted the 'authority' of the state or other mafia and the absurd idea that mob majority rule has any legitimacy at all.

Here, realize that voting is a crude analogy for _actual real communication where we make decisions together_ omigod.

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If we want to fix the current political problems it may be a good idea to first identify them.

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'underground' network using broadcast radio and NSA hardware? And what would you do with your 'underground' network anyway? Use it to talk to government agents?

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Obviously, the answer is to finally talk with people who aren't government agents.

Yeah, but how do you know who is an agent in an 'underground' and (hopefully) anonymous network?

wasn't my joke funny? my joke was so funny! it was funny because we can't talk about it =( so jokes are the only way =( this is also a half-joke =)

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Anyway, an actually anonymous network may weaken the power of govcorp somewhat but it's hardly a panacea. And what I was getting at is that writing programs is pointless if people don't use the programs. So even if you had a working design for say an anonymous network, it woud still have to be 'deployed', which is something the users themselves would have to do. Which in turn requires the users to be aware of various technical and political issues, et cetera.

any mobile app business can relate that it is easy to get people to run a program, and any blockchain developer can tell you that it is easy to get them to keep doing it. random idea from thousands: app #1: "how to have fun sniffing your friends network traffic, seeing and altering their secret conversations. btw pay us $5 if you don't want your friends messages randomly altered to alert that you are watching them, with helpful information on community project app #2" app #2: "cool anonymity network! nobody can see you chat!"

Zenaan Harkness

10:58 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 01:59:51PM -0500, Karl wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:40 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 05:52:02 -0500 Karl wrote:

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Many of us have ways to make the world right, but so long as our actions can be predicted, it doesn't seem easy to pursue them, and pursuing them may have consequences.

I don't think prediction is the problem but numbers. If enough people want to burn down amazon and google, the 'prediction' won't stop them.

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Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation?

how can computer programers fix a political problem?

I stand by blockchain technologies that prevent the isolation of communities and provide immutable public records. Cryptography can make votes unalterable,

Cryptography unfortunately can't stop the dead from voting.

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dialogue unhidable. Math could show clear statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for whom.

But computer programers share with you the malady that problems are for 'fixing'.

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Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.

Karl

11:06 p.m.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 6:00 PM Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 01:59:51PM -0500, Karl wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:40 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 05:52:02 -0500 Karl wrote:

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Many of us have ways to make the world right, but so long as our actions can be predicted, it doesn't seem easy to pursue them, and pursuing them may have consequences.

I don't think prediction is the problem but numbers. If enough people want to burn down amazon and google, the 'prediction' won't stop them.

...
Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this time, to help the situation?

how can computer programers fix a political problem?

I stand by blockchain technologies that prevent the isolation of communities and provide immutable public records. Cryptography can make votes unalterable,

Cryptography unfortunately can't stop the dead from voting.

Give an experienced carpenter a hammer and they'll build for you a spaceship. Cryptography could prove the correct behavior of systems that prevent the dead from voting.

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dialogue unhidable. Math could show clear statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for whom.

But computer programers share with you the malady that problems are for 'fixing'.

...
...
Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.

jamesd＠echeque.com

11 Nov 11 Nov

10:14 a.m.

On 2020-11-10 08:58, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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Cryptography unfortunately can't stop the dead from voting.

Another problem is that cryptographic votes can easily be sold or stolen - we already have massive ballot harvesting, for example everyone in every old person's home in a county, by amazing coincidence, applying for an absentee ballot at the exact same time, different people in different nursing homes all happen to take action simultaneously. How is someone in an old person's home going to secure their cryptographic keys? Of course this would not be a problem with sovereign corporations, because a share is a vote controlling assets, and you are supposed to be able to buy and sell your vote. I like Moldbug's idea of sovereign corporation whose product is the protection of people and assets. Democracies have a long and disastrous history. They work for a little while, work great, unlike socialism where people usually start going hungry the second harvest after socialism was instituted. But they end horribly, with a mob of degenerates on welfare being manipulated by the shapers of public opinion, and eventually who is in charge is actually settled by frequent violence, rather than by voting.

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participants (6)

\0xDynamite
grarpamp
jamesd＠echeque.com
Karl
Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0
Zenaan Harkness