On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 7:55 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 19:18:58 -0400 Karl wrote:

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Hey punk,

Could you not post stuff like this?

I'm still recovering from the existing flurries.

sorry karl, what the fuck do you mean? I'm posting actual facts to counter the 20 messages a day of trumpofascit garbage that 'grarpamp' posts. Have you told that worthless shitbag to stop?

Long ago, we had democracy. We discussed what was good, and all the votes were pretty much landslides because we had all come to agreement, before we voted. Now we are kept isolated from each other, and we vote for whoever threw the better insults. This is not an election.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:20 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:09:00 -0400 Karl wrote:

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Long ago, we had democracy. We discussed what was good, and all the votes were pretty much landslides because we had all come to agreement, before we voted.

Not sure what's the point of that little fictional story? Is it sarcasm?

NO IT IS HISTORY.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:55 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:24:52 -0400 Karl wrote:

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On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:20 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:09:00 -0400 Karl wrote:

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Long ago, we had democracy. We discussed what was good, and all the votes were pretty much landslides because we had all come to agreement, before we voted.

Not sure what's the point of that little fictional story? Is it sarcasm?

NO IT IS HISTORY.

So you are still being sarcastic I assume?

Actually, punk, discussion has been getting more and more polarized over the many years, and I am not being sarcastic, but am handling issues that I should probably handle off-list pretty soon. Are you able to communicate anything other than criticism?

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 9:04 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:57:31 -0400 Karl wrote:

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NO IT IS HISTORY.

So you are still being sarcastic I assume?

Actually, punk, discussion has been getting more and more polarized over the many years, and I am not being sarcastic,

OK so you know exactly fuck about US history, let alone more general history.

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but am handling issues that I should probably handle off-list pretty soon.

Are you able to communicate anything other than criticism?

I'm pretty able to shred to pieces any sort of nonsense you can type. If truth offends you, then...I don't know.

You sound so incredibly upset. I feel really sad, imagining that you to have no interest in listening to anything I have to say. I care about you, and it hurts.

The USA voting system came from the haudenasaunee alliance in the northeastern area. Before entering, people calmed themselves, so as to have no harm in their words. Their meetings for decisions started with shared value for everything anybody held as important, and then went in a circle such that everyone could speak. On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 9:22 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 21:06:37 -0400 Karl wrote:

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You sound so incredibly upset. I feel really sad, imagining that you to have no interest in listening to anything I have to say.

I listen to everything you and anybody else says. And I reply to it. It's called 'dialogue'.

I listened to your comments on US 'democracy' and I correctly replied that you know nothing about it. Now I'm listening to you trying to change the subject. But don't worry about me being 'upset'. Go back to your claim and argue it.

"Long ago, we had democracy"

Was that when the blacks were kept in the plantations?

"all the votes were pretty much landslides"

for instance?

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I care about you, and it hurts.

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Punk when you talk I feel upset and my ears turn off. Do you know how to translate for people who have that issue? On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 9:50 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 21:25:48 -0400 Karl wrote:

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The USA voting system came from the haudenasaunee alliance in the northeastern area.

See? That's not a dialogue. First you spouted some cosmic nonsense. I countered it/asked for some particulars, you IGNORED what I said and now you spouted MORE nonsense.

The US voting system came from the people whose land the english-US nazis or 'colonists' stole and whom they enslaved/ethnic cleansed? What?

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Their meetings for decisions started with shared value for everything anybody held as important, and then went in a circle such that everyone could speak

And what has that got to do with the political system of the fascist slave society 'founded' in ~1776 by english, puritan, slave-owning nazis like jefferson, franklin and co, where only white landowners voted?

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 10:31 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 21:56:52 -0400 Karl wrote:

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Punk when you talk I feel upset and my ears turn off. Do you know how to translate for people who have that issue?

You want me to reword what I wrote? I have no reason to do that.

But you may want to reword what I wrote just to make sure you understood it. As far as I can tell, you are 'upset' because truth upsets you.

It's pretty much self-evident that the US has been a fascist cesspool since day zero and that the 'democratic party' played a huge role in all US crimes. Tell that to your family.

What you say changes so much it's just frustrating and I could consider throwing words in that could trigger government internet systems differently. You'd probably enjoy that but it feels mean. It seems to me all the political parties have facilitated crimes by facilitating government, taking bribes, all sorts of things. I'm looking at what you wrote, and I think it says that you are _indescribably_ angry, about this list? Is this correct?

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On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 9:50 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

wrote:

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On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 21:25:48 -0400 Karl wrote:

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The USA voting system came from the haudenasaunee alliance in the northeastern area.

See? That's not a dialogue. First you spouted some cosmic nonsense. I countered it/asked for some particulars, you IGNORED what I said and now you spouted MORE nonsense.

The US voting system came from the people whose land the english-US nazis or 'colonists' stole and whom they enslaved/ethnic cleansed? What?

...

Their meetings for decisions started with shared value for everything anybody held as important, and then went

in a

...

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circle such that everyone could speak

And what has that got to do with the political system of the fascist slave society 'founded' in ~1776 by english, puritan, slave-owning nazis like jefferson, franklin and co, where only white landowners voted?

Hi punk let's take over the cypherpunks list, whaddaya say? After the last hackers stop posting we can start hunting down what happened to them. (I'm just expressing my own fears here) On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 10:45 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 22:37:38 -0400 Karl wrote:

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I'm looking at what you wrote, and I think it says that you are _indescribably_ angry, about this list? Is this correct?

no. I just commented on your nonsense

about US 'democracy'. And I'm still waiting I guess what I said threw you for a loop. You see the USA being full of divisiveness, and throw disgust at me, perceiving bullshit? for you to give examples of

"all the votes being pretty much landslides because we had all come to agreement"

I gave you haudenasaunee meeting of the longhouse. We preserved all-agree with the modern "consensus process", when dialogue broke. We try to take over the world with it every decade and get squashed by goonies. How's that land.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:24:15PM -0400, Karl wrote:

I want to try not-trump because of feminism, environmentalism, community power (he's a rich businessman), social justice, etc. I have reasons for all those things too.

Karl, to what degree do you see that "social justice" has been co-opted into destruction of (often black/minority) businesses by literally burning their buildings to the ground, hate campaigns against "Whitie", and other destructive and pointless things?

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 09:42:34PM -0400, Karl wrote:

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 9:34 PM Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:24:15PM -0400, Karl wrote:

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I want to try not-trump because of feminism, environmentalism, community power (he's a rich businessman), social justice, etc. I have reasons for all those things too.

Karl, to what degree do you see that "social justice" has been co-opted into destruction of (often black/minority) businesses by literally burning their buildings to the ground, hate campaigns against "Whitie", and other destructive and pointless things?

I've heard of the white thing for some years but never been exposed to it myself.

How do you feel when a business is burned? As an anarchist, I feel kinda happy at first. Then I feel really sad when I think of the owner discovering it, and how they might feel.

Well at least there's a common ground for dialog. Do you recall seeing the ~80 year old man beaten to the ground, nearly unconscious, by the BLM / ANTIFA mob in Kenosha, when all this really old guy did was try and put out the fire in his mattress store, this business he had presumably spent decades running? Can we agree that great harm was done to this old man?

I don't see the word "co-opted" as appropriate, until maybe this year.

I'd really like to learn your values. Mine would simplify from the buzzwords I stated, to reducing harm that I am aware of.

I'm thinking about what you bring up here, and considering how violence is bad. On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 10:01 PM Karl wrote:

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 9:54 PM Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 09:42:34PM -0400, Karl wrote:

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On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 9:34 PM Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:24:15PM -0400, Karl wrote:

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I want to try not-trump because of feminism, environmentalism, community power (he's a rich businessman), social justice, etc. I have reasons for all those things too.

Karl, to what degree do you see that "social justice" has been co-opted into destruction of (often black/minority) businesses by literally burning their buildings to the ground, hate campaigns against "Whitie", and other destructive and pointless things?

I've heard of the white thing for some years but never been exposed to it myself.

How do you feel when a business is burned? As an anarchist, I feel kinda happy at first. Then I feel really sad when I think of the owner discovering it, and how they might feel.

Well at least there's a common ground for dialog.

Do you recall seeing the ~80 year old man beaten to the ground, nearly unconscious, by the BLM / ANTIFA mob in Kenosha, when all this really old guy did was try and put out the fire in his mattress store, this business he had presumably spent decades running? Can we agree that great harm was done to this old man?

I haven't seen it; it sounds like it's really shocking and infuriating to see? Same was of course true of the many people killed by the police this year.

Zenaan, when you talk it often sounds like someone paid for it. You don't contribute anything technical to this list these days. I would like to let someone else speak.

But you're good if you can share some emotion about it with me.

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I don't see the word "co-opted" as appropriate, until maybe this year.

I'd really like to learn your values. Mine would simplify from the buzzwords I stated, to reducing harm that I am aware of.

there's no reason to do that.

Either you are comparing fair dollars or you're not. No shit FDR (the Democrats temple god and bed buddy) did inflation and maybe spent $1 on some new illness that did not hit some prior Presidency. But that is a twist over the original posted question and you know it.

the 'democratic party' played a huge role in all US crimes.

Since its start in what 1824, about 50% in all crimes. If govts crime laws were just, both 50's would be arrested. Better call Prosecutor Kamala, she's sure to arrest everyone on all sides, or call AG Barr, or whoever... good luck with that, lol.

I want to try not-trump because of

Nobody stops you but NAP. No law can stop murder, one cannot legislate those "because of" philosophies, only teach them. Else you do not have Libertarian Voluntary Anarchy Natural Law Freedom but instead created more contrived force over people, which will be turned and used to stop you some day in way you do not like. Note that Libertarian is "for" women and men equal, environment as teaching about non-particulate/toxic air water cancer does input to and freely moves economics, "community power" if force over others is wrong, but refusing to buy from "rich" is free choice, same for subscribing yourself to whatever persons and groups you want to perform your "social justice" over you and your voluntary social communes, provided you don't force your vision for "justice" over other harmless or equally freely associated peoples.

The left had to struggle a lot to defend our immigrant friends during these years, and we mostly lost that battle, seeing people we cared about in tears as they lost their families.

Unspecified details... appears to be crying over countries deporting "illegal" migrants, since "legal" "immigrants" do not involuntarily "lost their families". If some people are trying to "immigrate" into some shithole, or by some methods, that they know will be problem, or did not research laws and actions, or did not follow right ways for whichever place, that's on them. Cannot claim that proper immigrant A "lost" their improperly immigrating family B. Or that C and D didn't know chance exist that one of C or D might not be approved. And why is A choosing to stay in the shithole causing B to cry, when both A and B can go someplace else, or back together... very few immigrations are for asylum cases to avoiding actual death or prisonment. Don't try to say that if bin Laden, or one your relatives, immigrates to Taiwan that they gets to bring in their entire family, immediate and extant DNA tree, and all future children... because crying. Of course immigration "laws" of all countries suck. "Voting" "left" or "right" will not solve problems of "laws", only whatever choices are further away from authoritarian on the authoritarian-libertarian line can do that. Rolling out and entrenching a bunch of forceful new laws and their huge programs is authoritarian, not libertarian. Left is not solving any problem there, nor is Right positioned much further on than Left.

I imagine we cause something similar

If "we" means the "left" or any govt anywhere, they're already forcing themselves on top of other guys with their stupid "democracy" scam, no imagination necessary.

all the votes were pretty much landslides because we had all come to agreement, before we voted.

If all did, then you did not need to vote. Not all did. You only voted to force the last remaining free and harmless holdouts to do what you told them, ultimately upon force of death if they were to resist your commands, to preserve their freedom. You could be referring to some "we" group that all mutually explicitly and voluntarily contracted to each other, but you did not specify that. And absolutely NO extant government or populace or democracy in the world past or present has ever met that high voluntary standard. Let alone tried to free themselves to sobriety from using intoxicating force. Zen is right that all are born into such slaveries. The challenge for all humanity is to revolt their way out. The revolution takes place in ones mind.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 09:32:35PM -0300, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:08:48 -0400 grarpamp wrote:

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https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/09/27/trump-will-create-more-de... https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-poised-to-add-more-debt-than-obama-in... https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/01/trumps-deficits-are-racin... First subtract out inflation, and Corona, then account for things Presidents did or did not have exec line control over.

there's no reason to do that. Inflation is yet another crime the monkey commits. Likewise you don't have to 'substract' the flu farce, but add it to the monkey's crimes. bottom line : your monkey is worse than obomba.

You ain't black.