Causing systemic change / achieving a lasting "win" - honest businessmen - gold and silver coin
On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 07:44:42PM -0300, juan wrote:
This is what happens to honest businessmen in the US https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2012/03/26/use-real-money-go-to-fe...
Not only the USA. Robert Kahre's mistake was to fail to build a solid grass-roots group of similarly principled companions. No, paying salaries to your employees does not count ... The era of lone Ulyssees heros, plating the flag on the hilltop, being hailed by the throngs of well wishers, is over. A win for the community, must genuinely involve "the community" - that is, many thousands of individuals who actually stand the ground of the win/ cause/ human right/ change to the system, that is being attempted. That way for example, Robert Kahre would have had thousands of individuals, not only from his own company, rocking up to court hearings, protesting the IRS, joining in his legal court cases as parties interested - as in a class action - and much more. Fail to build a team of fellow humans who genuinely share your vision, and you shall do little more than suffer the wrath of the existing powers that be. And what exactly is the point of martyrdom? You won't get many brownie points these days, and those you do get are little more than "good on ya mate"... We have here in Australia the example of a state senator who conducted a multi-year information gathering exercise regarding municipal/town water fluoridation. He ultimately collected a lot of original documents, and published the 1000+ page volume (or three), along with the 100 page summary volume, along with the 30 page summary summary volume, along with the 50-point two page summary summary summary page (bones go brittle, fluorosis, hypothalamus encrusting and consequential mental impairment, congenital effects, much better/ more efficatious/ targetted options, etc etc (50 headline bombshells). AFter all this, he proposed alteration to legislation and banning of fluoridation of human (drinking) water supplies, had that legislation single handedly passed, and the State of Queensland, Australia, was without fluoridated municipal water for two to three years. He did not get elected for a second 6 or 7 year term, and fluoride was reintroduced in that next term, in short order. Moral of the story? A win/change by a lone individual will not last the next term of government where he is not re-elected, and ONLY a genuine grass roots supported movement for change, shall be lasting. "If you are to keep your father's wealth, you must earn it anew." Good luck fellow humans,
On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:39:27 +1100 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 07:44:42PM -0300, juan wrote:
This is what happens to honest businessmen in the US https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2012/03/26/use-real-money-go-to-fe...
Not only the USA.
Robert Kahre's mistake was to fail to build a solid grass-roots group of similarly principled companions.
I think his mistake was to assume that the legal system can be 'hacked'. But there's no point in trying to outsmart, at their own game, the people who have the self-granted power to 1) create whatever 'law' they want 2) 'interpret' it in whatever way they want 3) kill amybody who doesn't obey 4) etc.
No, paying salaries to your employees does not count ...
The era of lone Ulyssees heros, plating the flag on the hilltop, being hailed by the throngs of well wishers, is over.
A win for the community, must genuinely involve "the community" - that is, many thousands of individuals who actually stand the ground of the win/ cause/ human right/ change to the system, that is being attempted.
Of course, a critical mass of like minded people is needed.
That way for example, Robert Kahre would have had thousands of individuals, not only from his own company, rocking up to court hearings, protesting the IRS, joining in his legal court cases as parties interested - as in a class action - and much more.
Fail to build a team of fellow humans who genuinely share your vision, and you shall do little more than suffer the wrath of the existing powers that be. And what exactly is the point of martyrdom? You won't get many brownie points these days, and those you do get are little more than "good on ya mate"...
We have here in Australia the example of a state senator who conducted a multi-year information gathering exercise regarding municipal/town water fluoridation. He ultimately collected a lot of original documents, and published the 1000+ page volume (or three), along with the 100 page summary volume, along with the 30 page summary summary volume, along with the 50-point two page summary summary summary page (bones go brittle, fluorosis, hypothalamus encrusting and consequential mental impairment, congenital effects, much better/ more efficatious/ targetted options, etc etc (50 headline bombshells).
AFter all this, he proposed alteration to legislation and banning of fluoridation of human (drinking) water supplies, had that legislation single handedly passed, and the State of Queensland, Australia, was without fluoridated municipal water for two to three years.
He did not get elected for a second 6 or 7 year term, and fluoride was reintroduced in that next term, in short order.
Moral of the story? A win/change by a lone individual will not last the next term of government where he is not re-elected, and ONLY a genuine grass roots supported movement for change, shall be lasting.
But he did get some popular support...Maybe the moral of the story is that democracy is rather flawed. "If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal"
"If you are to keep your father's wealth, you must earn it anew."
Good luck fellow humans,
On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 03:10:33AM -0300, juan wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:39:27 +1100 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 07:44:42PM -0300, juan wrote:
This is what happens to honest businessmen in the US https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2012/03/26/use-real-money-go-to-fe...
Not only the USA.
Moral of the story? A win/change by a lone individual will not last the next term of government where he is not re-elected, and ONLY a genuine grass roots supported movement for change, shall be lasting.
But he did get some popular support...
No, he got support for the data/info gathering. Entirely different to political support for a systemic change.
Maybe the moral of the story is that democracy is rather flawed. "If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal"
The Swiss failed to keep constitutional and therefore people control over their own money. But they did for some decades experience far greater political "control" than most other so-called democracies around the world. Also balk against "they" - far too defeatist, leads to disheartened apathy ("there's nothing we can do - 'they' will stop us"). Not useful.
On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:17:24 +1100 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 03:10:33AM -0300, juan wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:39:27 +1100 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 07:44:42PM -0300, juan wrote:
This is what happens to honest businessmen in the US https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2012/03/26/use-real-money-go-to-fe...
Not only the USA.
Moral of the story? A win/change by a lone individual will not last the next term of government where he is not re-elected, and ONLY a genuine grass roots supported movement for change, shall be lasting.
But he did get some popular support...
No, he got support for the data/info gathering.
Entirely different to political support for a systemic change.
Maybe the moral of the story is that democracy is rather flawed. "If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal"
The Swiss failed to keep constitutional and therefore people control over their own money.
But they did for some decades experience far greater political "control" than most other so-called democracies around the world.
switzerland is a bit more civilized in some ways than other countries. They don't have a 'president' (king/figurehead/leader), they don't have a single 'national' language - the political system seems to be somewhat more decentralized. And the direct democracy thing is kinda interesting but futile in the end look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2014 12 referendum on many non-trivial issues. The most notable thing to me is that there is no 'community' at all. The % of support for different projects is all over the place. That means a lot of stuff get imposed on a lot of people against their will all of the time. free movement of people : 50% 50% - but the anti free movement criminals won. commie-fascist financing for railways : 38% against it, have to pay anyway buying war planes : 53% against it - but it could have been 49%... etc.
Also balk against "they" - far too defeatist, leads to disheartened apathy ("there's nothing we can do - 'they' will stop us"). Not useful.
On 10/19/2016 11:10 PM, juan wrote:
Maybe the moral of the story is that democracy is rather flawed. "If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal"
I have to point out that, at least at a local level, it can, and they do. The example I cite is TexASS, where there were going to be a number of issues voted on that affected property rights for native Americans regarding the Border Wall... So the state passed a "RealID" law that cut every sovereignty-claiming native out of the elections (because soverign natives don't ascribe to US documentation). By the time the USSC heard the emergency appeal and rescinded that redaction of Native voting rights the election was over and the Wall-building interests got what they wanted. Rr
On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:39:27 +1100 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 07:44:42PM -0300, juan wrote:
This is what happens to honest businessmen in the US https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2012/03/26/use-real-money-go-to-fe...
Not only the USA.
Robert Kahre's mistake was to fail to build a solid grass-roots group of similarly principled companions.
I think his mistake was to assume that the legal system can be 'hacked'. But there's no point in trying to outsmart, at their own game, the people who have the self-granted power to
1) create whatever 'law' they want 2) 'interpret' it in whatever way they want 3) kill amybody who doesn't obey 4) etc.
No, paying salaries to your employees does not count ...
The era of lone Ulyssees heros, plating the flag on the hilltop, being hailed by the throngs of well wishers, is over.
A win for the community, must genuinely involve "the community" - that is, many thousands of individuals who actually stand the ground of the win/ cause/ human right/ change to the system, that is being attempted.
Of course, a critical mass of like minded people is needed.
That way for example, Robert Kahre would have had thousands of individuals, not only from his own company, rocking up to court hearings, protesting the IRS, joining in his legal court cases as parties interested - as in a class action - and much more.
Fail to build a team of fellow humans who genuinely share your vision, and you shall do little more than suffer the wrath of the existing powers that be. And what exactly is the point of martyrdom? You won't get many brownie points these days, and those you do get are little more than "good on ya mate"...
We have here in Australia the example of a state senator who conducted a multi-year information gathering exercise regarding municipal/town water fluoridation. He ultimately collected a lot of original documents, and published the 1000+ page volume (or three), along with the 100 page summary volume, along with the 30 page summary summary volume, along with the 50-point two page summary summary summary page (bones go brittle, fluorosis, hypothalamus encrusting and consequential mental impairment, congenital effects, much better/ more efficatious/ targetted options, etc etc (50 headline bombshells).
AFter all this, he proposed alteration to legislation and banning of fluoridation of human (drinking) water supplies, had that legislation single handedly passed, and the State of Queensland, Australia, was without fluoridated municipal water for two to three years.
He did not get elected for a second 6 or 7 year term, and fluoride was reintroduced in that next term, in short order.
Moral of the story? A win/change by a lone individual will not last the next term of government where he is not re-elected, and ONLY a genuine grass roots supported movement for change, shall be lasting.
But he did get some popular support...Maybe the moral of the story is that democracy is rather flawed. "If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal"
"If you are to keep your father's wealth, you must earn it anew."
Good luck fellow humans,
participants (3)
-
juan -
Razer -
Zenaan Harkness