Fwd: Public user prediction software?
Hi tolerant cpunks, I tried to send this to libtech but I don't seem to be able to due to personal concerns. I'm now having a bout of amnesia and unlikely to resend it. Here it is if you guys would like it. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> Date: Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 6:52 AM Subject: Public user prediction software? To: liberationtech <liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu> Mainstream reporting on targeted advertisement technology claim it can actually predict our behavior accurately enough to make it seem like it is surveilling us when it is not. It also seems to influence our behavior to make us easier to predict; this probably provides revenue to the advertisement algorithms. What is the state of public behavior prediction software? Is there any public tool that can help people understand this technology by playing with it?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 hello Karl! my replies in public below, as usual. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Saturday, April 24, 2021 4:02 AM, Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the state of public behavior prediction software?
the core issue with doing this open source, is that you're still going to need invasive privacy destroying data collection to drive the prediction. even if you could make an open source, open data facestab or gaggle YOU SHOULD NOT because it's a privacy nightmare!
Is there any public tool that can help people understand this technology by playing with it?
playing with behavioral profiles and advertising models in the context of internet marketing would be an eye opener for most people. they are simply unaware of the invasive sophistication of these technologies... interesting technology, even if prone to global scale abuse... best regards, -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iNUEAREKAH0WIQRBwSuMMH1+IZiqV4FlqEfnwrk4DAUCYIZFD18UgAAAAAAuAChp c3N1ZXItZnByQG5vdGF0aW9ucy5vcGVucGdwLmZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4ubmV0NDFD MTJCOEMzMDdEN0UyMTk4QUE1NzgxNjVBODQ3RTdDMkI5MzgwQwAKCRBlqEfnwrk4 DHhxAQC7Bivgxv0vDa5sseXYCFHL+lBBsbpYlJML7/yo0ScqmwEAtHYNnBd6BIwG p0w3NwZxI5OtKsV1fUlmUAdLOquxjZU= =5Xwq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi coderman, On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 12:44 AM coderman <coderman@protonmail.com> wrote:
What is the state of public behavior prediction software?
the core issue with doing this open source, is that you're still going to need invasive privacy destroying data collection to drive
Are you sure about this? Couldn't a user provide their own keystrokes, mouse movements, etc and fine-tune a personalised model on their own system? the prediction. even if you could make an open source, open data
facestab or gaggle YOU SHOULD NOT because it's a privacy nightmare!
Certainly a model that uses many peoples' data would be stronger than one with only one person's data. But wouldn't it be _better_ to have this data out in the public than held privately by marketing and military organisations? Then people could tell when they were being profiled, because the data would be added to a public store.
Is there any public tool that can help people understand this
technology by playing with it?
playing with behavioral profiles and advertising models in the context of internet marketing would be an eye opener for most people. they are simply unaware of the invasive sophistication of these technologies...
interesting technology, even if prone to global scale abuse...
I'm sure there is public technology around behavior prediction among the research communities already. It's been around for a while.
best regards,
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I've seen other messages crop up on this list since I last posted but haven't found the time to read them yet.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 hello Karl! my replies below clearsigned as usual, ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Monday, April 26, 2021 6:42 AM, Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:
... Couldn't a user provide their own keystrokes, mouse movements, etc and fine-tune a personalised model on their own system?
this would simply be personalization, not behavioral prediction. all of the behavioral prediction models are based on statistics; you need a sufficient sample size to make inferences from the data. i don't know of any methods that work with a sample size of 1. if you look at open source projects for behavioral modeling and prediction, you see they all use large datasets to build the models. E.g. https://github.com/numenta/nupic, https://github.com/numenta/nupic.core
But wouldn't it be _better_ to have this data out in the public than held privately by marketing and military organisations?
i am not convinced it would be better: consider being a victim of identity theft. should you just post your personal info out in the clear, knowing that some are using it already? no, that'd just make the problem worse. same with an open source open data privacy invasion system: it's still privacy invasive and detrimental! there are some uses of technology that just SHOULD NOT BE. i remain open to changing my mind, however :) best regards, -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iNUEAREKAH0WIQRBwSuMMH1+IZiqV4FlqEfnwrk4DAUCYIboW18UgAAAAAAuAChp c3N1ZXItZnByQG5vdGF0aW9ucy5vcGVucGdwLmZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4ubmV0NDFD MTJCOEMzMDdEN0UyMTk4QUE1NzgxNjVBODQ3RTdDMkI5MzgwQwAKCRBlqEfnwrk4 DKbcAQDIJWz/Rj+ioyaAQYn9DLCO0TrBKqQWUihx+NjRIDB+QQEAhNLwq8LaFRjl UGEvbxtxybfvJE10tHhw/Z+tk8Ls8O0= =D/ZQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 12:21 PM coderman <coderman@protonmail.com> wrote:
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hello Karl!
my replies below clearsigned as usual,
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Monday, April 26, 2021 6:42 AM, Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:
... Couldn't a user provide their own keystrokes, mouse movements, etc and fine-tune a personalised model on their own system?
this would simply be personalization, not behavioral prediction.
? I do not see personal behavior prediction as a contradiction. all of the behavioral prediction models are based on statistics;
you need a sufficient sample size to make inferences from the data.
i don't know of any methods that work with a sample size of 1.
if you look at open source projects for behavioral modeling and prediction, you see they all use large datasets to build the models.
E.g. https://github.com/numenta/nupic, https://github.com/numenta/nupic.core
Looks like it would work, to me, with some work. If that's not clear to you: - models trained on huge datasets can be fine-tuned on small datasets and work effectively - a single user has a lot of statistical data. The sample size is not one: it is every streaming datapoint they produce. - many users are likely to be interested in trying it out.
But wouldn't it be _better_ to have this data out in the public
than held privately by marketing and military organisations?
i am not convinced it would be better: consider being a victim of identity theft. should you just post your personal info out in the clear, knowing that some are using it already?
no, that'd just make the problem worse.
I guess this depends on your relationship with marketing and military organisations vs your relationship with the rest of the world. If you are a military target among a community of caring academics, it seems far better to have your data in the clear than privately held. same with an open source open data privacy invasion system:
it's still privacy invasive and detrimental!
there are some uses of technology that just SHOULD NOT BE.
i remain open to changing my mind, however :)
Yeah this is like drugs, guns, or cryptography, it gets more violent if the resource is not in the clear for those who desire it to be. best regards,
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On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 6:10 PM Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 12:21 PM coderman <coderman@protonmail.com> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512
hello Karl!
my replies below clearsigned as usual,
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Monday, April 26, 2021 6:42 AM, Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:
... Couldn't a user provide their own keystrokes, mouse movements, etc and fine-tune a personalised model on their own system?
this would simply be personalization, not behavioral prediction.
? I do not see personal behavior prediction as a contradiction.
all of the behavioral prediction models are based on statistics;
you need a sufficient sample size to make inferences from the data.
i don't know of any methods that work with a sample size of 1.
if you look at open source projects for behavioral modeling and prediction, you see they all use large datasets to build the models.
E.g. https://github.com/numenta/nupic, https://github.com/numenta/nupic.core
Looks like it would work, to me, with some work.
If that's not clear to you: - models trained on huge datasets can be fine-tuned on small datasets and work effectively - a single user has a lot of statistical data. The sample size is not one: it is every streaming datapoint they produce. - many users are likely to be interested in trying it out.
But wouldn't it be _better_ to have this data out in the public
than held privately by marketing and military organisations?
i am not convinced it would be better: consider being a victim of identity theft. should you just post your personal info out in the clear, knowing that some are using it already?
no, that'd just make the problem worse.
I guess this depends on your relationship with marketing and military organisations vs your relationship with the rest of the world.
If you are a military target among a community of caring academics, it seems far better to have your data in the clear than privately held.
same with an open source open data privacy invasion system:
it's still privacy invasive and detrimental!
there are some uses of technology that just SHOULD NOT BE.
i remain open to changing my mind, however :)
Yeah this is like drugs, guns, or cryptography, it gets more violent if the resource is not in the clear for those who desire it to be.
Do you imagine a way to halt it without publicizing it?
best regards,
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participants (2)
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coderman -
Karl