some time ago there was a conversation on this list where an idea similar to compromising networks of systems was quickly dismissed from a discussion by stating that nobody did that. after some years of confused thought, i have realized this means the speaker is protecting people who wish they were the only ones who did it. the cultures that result from such speech start fulfilling the prophecy. but it is unfortunately a change that is quite shocking, where people can be severely taken advantage of by other people on potential wide scales, as things develop. the appropriate way to instil such change is to share morals severely discouraging malicious cracking. this leaves space for benevolent security work that protects people. what we have now, on this list, is a complete absence of discussion of actual security work. this supports harmful oppression. we need discussion and exploration and understanding to prevent this harm. in the meantime, the landscape has changed, but not necessarily as significantly as one might expect. what’s relevant is that we are likely all running systems built out of these rootkits now, if we have been in communities where discussions of such things is suppressed.