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John Young

20 Feb 2016 20 Feb '16

1:10 p.m.

If Apple can hack its own security then the products are backdoors.

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Michael Best

20 Feb 20 Feb

1:09 p.m.

New subject: [cryptome] (no subject)

... Being able to hack something doesn't mean there's a backdoor, even if you're the one who built it. Hacking != backdoors Good soundbite, though. On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:10 AM, John Young wrote:

...

If Apple can hack its own security then the products are backdoors.

-- Veritas aequitas liberabit vos Veri universum vici That 1 Archive http://that1archive.neocities.org/ @NatSecGeek https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: SKS 1.1.5 Comment: Hostname: pgp.mit.edu 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=M+du -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

z9wahqvh

1:26 p.m.

New subject: [cryptome] (no subject)

except that Apple's argument for why it can't comply with the court order is this: "Building a version of iOS that bypasses security in this way would undeniably create a backdoor" http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Michael Best wrote:

...

... Being able to hack something doesn't mean there's a backdoor, even if you're the one who built it. Hacking != backdoors

Good soundbite, though.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:10 AM, John Young wrote:

...
If Apple can hack its own security then the products are backdoors.

-- Veritas aequitas liberabit vos Veri universum vici

That 1 Archive http://that1archive.neocities.org/ @NatSecGeek https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek

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Steve Kinney

1:43 p.m.

New subject: [cryptome] (no subject)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/20/2016 08:09 AM, Michael Best wrote:

...

...
On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:10 AM, John Young mailto:jya@pipeline.com> wrote:

If Apple can hack its own security then the products are backdoors.

...

... Being able to hack something doesn't mean there's a backdoor, even if you're the one who built it. Hacking != backdoors

Good soundbite, though.

A little bit factual, though... "There are a number of undocumented and hidden features and services in Apple iOS that can be used to bypass the backup encryption on iOS devices and remove large amounts of users’ personal data. Several of these features began as benign services but have evolved in recent years to become powerful tools for acquiring user data." https://threatpost.com/researcher-identifies-hidden-data-acquisition - -services-in-ios/ In practical terms, if Apple "can hack its own security" in response to a Court order, that would mean that Apple had the means to identify and repair the product defect(s) in question all along but failed to do so until so ordered. Which sounds a lot more like "plausible deniability" of a back door, than the absence of one. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWyG2bAAoJEDZ0Gg87KR0LolgQAIJM+/bv+cH1YhSjHZinK1sy ol8NW6weTJ64dvOPA9BQfVMsqd7fhR7OiLnV46FdtvctCoD0/rB4aNRO4sVz+Snj Eb7Q6bITVYXwAfqoyIezbqpPFH81+hIHRV4AHpREnYrlN7wRuNBrlBOBdAg3mY0e vT3lhtbyMBJCVjleOkHTG+PsqVRzwpy6+tIfMRq+Xu43SDen1NOwdSTLdzdNOq3r cGtFKkNhE7wtg1KWrmJC48WTKqhJTJYOXLLC/TPSN+9xSJllgbRvhh3mLY3IoK+9 WwecZR5OueAlHFGqXMBHxNJ3Z8B7kJ2yzV+uN7XbP5rLiqN22N/VilQy5nMMYbXe wLJYP8YMJPGn9axuukHr8cG78f2iCNiG3Zvzue9mdxjll1oiwH5K3lCaNSt1w2gL SHRQOt+DO1p8OcOf0cao40wxMjEorswx6H7X2YXYkDiNG8vGa4VHPF2x4xuiROpO QcFhrcQg0vu3KkRBkP47tPO3M5RAVIoIA/29WCJ8OQ21L+8PHHlajGSJ0he3vlRv rqeaX1cRMlw3UeYLuTvjL6SCp5dZr4xhNEgLMhtDdqgFwpuJlDwj07U0FCWJkF6L +6mLfT6+Uzkr3RyA+uQZ/1aTTPeervJmTN/fdt2eA36h2XuF06oVWaREgs/9bhw3 3UOwhYhhrBpjqnqxPFg0 =6lQj -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Michael Best

2:17 p.m.

New subject: [cryptome] (no subject)

I was under the mistaken impression that hacking the particular iPhone in discussion and building a new iOS were two separate, but related, issues. Didn't realize they were identical issues, mea culpa. On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Michael Best wrote:

...

... Being able to hack something doesn't mean there's a backdoor, even if you're the one who built it. Hacking != backdoors

Good soundbite, though.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:10 AM, John Young wrote:

...
If Apple can hack its own security then the products are backdoors.

-- Veritas aequitas liberabit vos Veri universum vici

That 1 Archive http://that1archive.neocities.org/ @NatSecGeek https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek

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juan

5:26 p.m.

New subject: [cryptome] (no subject)

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:09:51 -0500 Michael Best wrote:

...

... Being able to hack something doesn't mean there's a backdoor, even if you're the one who built it. Hacking != backdoors

Of course it does. 'Hacking' here means taking advantage of some 'bug' you are responsible for. It turns out then that the definitions of 'bug' 'backdoor' 'hacking' and 'working for the government' get nicely blurred. Awfully convenient for the likes of apple and the likes of you. 'plausible deniability' and all that shit.

...

Good soundbite, though.

Dude.

...

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:10 AM, John Young wrote:

...
If Apple can hack its own security then the products are backdoors.

Cari Machet

1:33 p.m.

http://encrypted-phone-review.com/silent-circle/is-silent-circle-us-govt-app... Is Silent Circle “US Govt Approved”? Encrypted Blackphone goes to war with snoopers Sunday Jan 19, 2014 | Rob Lever for Agence France Presse "The larger firms, said Janke, 'want to own your soul. These companies are in the business of monetizing data'." [snip] “We know that encryption works,” he said, adding that “brute force” attacks to break encryption are rare because they are time-consuming, and that spy agencies generally use other means like inserting viruses in emails or hardware that can intercept messages. Because of this, Janke is careful not to promise too much. He said Blackphone is not a “hardened” device like some designed for military use. “There is no such thing as a completely secure phone,” he said. “Nothing is going to protect you from your own behavior. But out of the box, this phone does a lot of things to protect your privacy.” On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 2:10 PM, John Young wrote:

...

If Apple can hack its own security then the products are backdoors.

-- Cari Machet NYC 646-436-7795 carimachet@gmail.com AIM carismachet Syria +963-099 277 3243 Amman +962 077 636 9407 Berlin +49 152 11779219 Reykjavik +354 894 8650 Twitter: @carimachet https://twitter.com/carimachet 7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187 Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without permission is strictly prohibited.

Jason McVetta

8:11 p.m.

I presume an actually-secure phone would be highly illegal for a civilian commoner to possess. On Feb 20, 2016 5:38 AM, "Cari Machet" wrote:

...

http://encrypted-phone-review.com/silent-circle/is-silent-circle-us-govt-app...

Is Silent Circle “US Govt Approved”?

Encrypted Blackphone goes to war with snoopers

Sunday Jan 19, 2014 | Rob Lever for Agence France Presse "The larger firms, said Janke, 'want to own your soul. These companies are in the business of monetizing data'."

[snip]

“We know that encryption works,” he said, adding that “brute force” attacks to break encryption are rare because they are time-consuming, and that spy agencies generally use other means like inserting viruses in emails or hardware that can intercept messages.

Because of this, Janke is careful not to promise too much. He said Blackphone is not a “hardened” device like some designed for military use.

“There is no such thing as a completely secure phone,” he said. “Nothing is going to protect you from your own behavior. But out of the box, this phone does a lot of things to protect your privacy.”

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 2:10 PM, John Young wrote:

...
If Apple can hack its own security then the products are backdoors.

-- Cari Machet NYC 646-436-7795 carimachet@gmail.com AIM carismachet Syria +963-099 277 3243 Amman +962 077 636 9407 Berlin +49 152 11779219 Reykjavik +354 894 8650 Twitter: @carimachet https://twitter.com/carimachet

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without permission is strictly prohibited.

Rayzer

8:27 p.m.

Jason McVetta wrote:

...

I presume an actually-secure phone would be highly illegal for a civilian commoner to possess.

There's no such thing as 'secure' with any form, of electronic communication. There's "More secure". -- RR "Through counter-intelligence it should be possible to pinpoint potential trouble-makers ... And neutralize them, neutralize them, neutralize them"

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