On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 9:07 PM, eden wrote:

On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 3:54 AM, Kurt Buff wrote:

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Anarchism is hard for some people to differentiate from nihilism.

I agree.

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Try reading Lysander Spooner, Benjamin Tucker, Ludwig von Mises and, most especially, Murray Rothbard. Maybe a bit of David Friedman, too.

Once you've made your way through their works, you can call yourself educated in anarchism.

Ignore Emma Goldman, the various Russian anarchist, the anarcho-syndicalists, etc. - they aren't serious.

Are you serious?

Von MISES? How would you distinguish between Anarchism and Libertarianism (and nihilism)?

Yes, I'm serious, including about von Mises. He's extraordinarily influential, and Rothbard cites him as a primary influence. You must grant him (as you must with other historical figures, especially those of intellectual stature) the limitations of his time and place. See especially https://www.amazon.com/Mises-Liberalism-J%C3%B6rg-Guido-H%C3%BClsmann/dp/193.... He was not prepared to take the last few steps toward repudiating government, but he laid the foundation for those who would. Libertarians (both big and small 'L') usually postulate some form of minimalist government - usually of the "night watchman" strain. Nihilism (as opposed to both regular libertarianism and individualist anarchism) seems to eschew both personal responsibility and the logic of causality, preferring the dream state of absolute freedom, without consequence. Kurt

*Zenaan Harkness, zen@freedbms.net :*

It seems that nearly everyone in this day and age is a statist to some degree, Juan excepted :)

Why is this so, I have asked myself.

The state is a bully, and no one has escaped the experiences of being bullied by the state - RBTs, license checks, seizing of bank accounts outside of any court hearing nor any chance for the target to be heard in a court of law with a righteous jurisdiction; and anyway, the courts, that last bastion of freedom and justice against the tyranny of the state, is almost completely, systemically, instutitionally corrupt by any common man standard.

The state seizes taxes at every corner, violates our constitutions, unilaterally attacks other states, and conspires year after year to increase the burdens and the violations of its own constituents, namely we the people.

The state (whether USA, Australia, etc) is nowadays so abhorrent, so in violation of the constitution which created it, so outside of ethics, morals, anything resembling higher causes or principles, it really is a beast of epic proportion which must be slayed or transformed, or the descent to total chaos war and bloodshed will once again happen, just another war to end all wars.

Yet nearly everyone still clings to the state. Whether implicitly (it's the best history has given us, other options would of course be so much worse) or explicitly (driver licenses are our only hope to rid the world of evil environment destroying cars).

'We' have lost faith in our fellow humans to a high degree. We don't trust ourselves and so we don't trust our fellow 'citizens'. We put money, creativity, leisure, life, family, mortgage and the rest before any higher principle, in denial of the magnificence of that which we be, that which we are, these incredible universes we stroll around in.

We expect "others won't stand behind me if I did take a stand against a bully or a tyranny, because deep down I know I am probably unlikely to get behind someone else taking a stand - especially since I haven't seen myself do so yet, so I have no evidence suggesting I'm that way inclined, so it's most likely true."

We hail the heroes "oh I think it's awesome that history proves that someone comes along to fix things up every now and then - at a minimum on average of every 400 years".

Yes this and endless more excuses for not supporing your local freedom "fighters" even in a small way, fatalism is just one more excuse. I've heard so many of them.

'We' live in golden cages. By historical standards, almost everyone in the West can eat cheesecake every day, travel to friends and sights and events one way or another, drape ourselves in silk and suede, or lounge on the beach.

And the gold cage is never enough, the car or pushbike really needs to be newer, faster, with better suspension, and I want more and my kids need to go to more activities and events and and and... I have my life to live.

And the state redistributes the wealth of others to make our golden cages. So we encage one another, binding our fellow man to tyranny, binding ourselves to self serving, self centered, selfish non action.

Sleepwalking in comfort whilst the beast prepares its final meal.

Gee it's great that heroes come along and solve such problems in history occasionally... now don't interrupt me whilst I shout down your Trump rebellion and screem the benefits of The Democratic Platform notwithstanding the evil that my state has become regardless.

Cowards most of us.

Wonderful speech, Zenaan. Gives so much food for thought & actions... In the past 4 days i have read so much powerful stuff from you... something really great is going on in your head-heart-soul. DON"T STOP IT! :) 2016-06-12 6:54 GMT+03:00 Kurt Buff :

Try reading Lysander Spooner, Benjamin Tucker, Ludwig von Mises and, most especially, Murray Rothbard. Maybe a bit of David Friedman, too.

Once you've made your way through their works, you can call yourself educated in anarchism.

That's really great, Kurt. But Zenaan is asking WHY don't we ​*​* * act*? Why do we live like SLAVES? and WHEN will we start putting great words (like in the books you listed) *into ACTIONS*? Knowledge is NOT ONLY about "knowing" it in brain, you know... It's about incarnating it into actions = into ones physical life! Even in this cypherpunk list, i believe there are 80% at least, who don't need more "insights/education of how everything sucks and how one should (at least try to) repair it". *BUT* as Zenaan says in his speech,- *self serving (egoismus) and self delusion* get the victory over all our great intentions and insights. *Cowards most of us.* .

Lastly, one should realize that your first obligation is to yourself, then to your [chosen] family/friends, and finally none at all to "society", which is a construct of dubious utility, and which doesn't exist on its own. It's not a matter of "every man for himself and devil take the hindmost", it's a matter of "there's only so much one can do, and the most important things come first".

Problem is, "most important things", in almost all humans, fails to include "actions which will in some (even small) way, bring forward some correction or shift to my wayward state, in which I am in some small way a party to". 0. Pick a cause. E.g. - handling the inevitable descent into nazism of every fascist state, which is every purported democracy today. 1. Name it. E.g. "No More Papers Please!" 2. Communicate it. Online, in person. 3. Find those who are passionate about it and will form part of your "core team" in this wayward t3rr0r1st group of extreme constitutionalists. 4. Invent some some slogans. E.g. "Be radical, live our absolute right to give no more than our name to any authority." 5. Perhaps water it down a bit, if you don't have enough takers, E.g. "Be radical, live our absolute right to give no more than our name and address as per section 51 of the Crimes Act 1971 (Australia), to any authority." (Sorry, that section and year are not quite right, but the details are otherwise correct, either download it from austlii.edu.au and read it to find it, or reply and ask, if you can't find it.) 6. Make plans, take actions, build it, do it. 7. Know and teach that for a cause to truly impact beneficially in the world, many individuals must carry it clearly in their words, with certainty in their hearts. A single individual put on a leadership pedestal, a Jacob, a Zenaan, a Juan or yourself, can and will be taken down. EVERY individual must live the cause, the freedom, speak from his own heart and carry the battle cry in a moments notice - only --then-- is the cause truly won, truly owned by many, and earned by many, and therefore able to persist. Every single one of us, as flawed as we are, uncomfortable and unsure, doubtful and embarrassed, every single one of us carries the capacity to communicate in our body and mind, the capacity to be sincere, clear and true in our minds and hearts. The perception of greatness in an individual "out there", in the "glory" of a public success, in the "exceptionalism" of an individual is a fast way to excusing inaction, to clouding the mind and the heart, into denying our equal potential as humans. All are unique and exceptional. Even if you only get through steps 0 to 2 above, that's more than 99% of people can generally say they've done in the past 10 years. Consider renumbering the steps to begin with 1 when talking with non computer programmers. Tech people may be a useful target demographic/ group - freedom of speech, freedom of code, experience in working and communicating with others, these days more "geek cred" than "nerd aversion", so possibly tending toward influential in general, if not only in the business and "silicon valley investor" set. Good luck, and may your actions speak for you. Rock the world in your own little way. Inspire others where possible. Do what we can. Amongst the 100s of causes and slogans, one may take off - and that's all that's needed! Enjoy the ride.

Lastly, one should realize that your first obligation is to yourself, then to your [chosen] family/friends, and finally none at all to "society", which is a construct of dubious utility, and which doesn't exist on its own.

society is a word which for the average person in conversation is used to describe part of his reality in which he finds himself. Taking one of the positions in the words above: "your first obligation is ... finally none at all to 'society'..." One way to tackle this position is to name it as the prisoner's dilemma: do the prisoners each hold out for the others, and thereby maximise the benefit to everyone, or jump at the first opportunity for individual benefit, maximising the cost/pain to everyone. I say this is a question of conscience. I encourage us all to live according to one's own conscience, one's knowledge of good and evil, and one's perception of right and wrong and how to improve things towards the "good" end of the spectrum (again, according to your own personal awareness of what is good). We in the West are schooled, not so much educated, and our schooling is so effective we do not see how brainwashed we are. "It's a dog eat dog world, every man for himself, society/government are dubious constructs not much related to reality and therefore to be ignored, focus on self and family instead, be competitive, be number 1, win that human rat race and take the podium and then you will have been successful in life." I say this is competitive schooling^Wbrainwashing is driving us away from our humanity, away from our conscience, and truly, away from those things which actually bring happiness in life. So many relatively wealthy or on the way to wealthy individuals here in Australia spend their adult lives striving, so hard, for financial success, to become that millionaire (and seriously, the papers, TV and people talk about how really, even if you want to retire "comfortably", you now need a MULTI million dollar retirement fund. That's right, just to be comfortable AT RETIREMENT AND NOT BEFORE, you need to become a multi millionaire. I say this to people and they nod in agreement - the cost of living comfortably is now so expensive. Seriously, it's now broadly accepted. So, all these people, racing around for decades to becomes multis (multi millionaires), a lifetime, only to discover at retirement that they need to find some people to spend their "comfortable retirement" with. Other folks, like some I know, take a different view, a different approach, considering that it is most productive (from a sanity perspective) to spend a good decade or two discovering people worthy of spending time with, hanging out with, marching a cause with, and -then- pursue a bit of "comfortability" in this world. Then occasionally I find a real extremist who will put a righteous cause and loyalty to friends who share the principles, even above family. Them's worth hanging onto... Please, choose words wisely. As to action, if someone believe's their action is righteous and will benefit others, and we believe such action will benefit at least some and at least even in small ways, then let's support such action, even if we encourage more effective action - with concrete suggestions of how to act more effectively of course (don't need to belabour -that- point around here now right?)... Be a monk IN the world. A rebellious table turning, boat rocking, rock of conscience type of monk, with care and graciousness to all, firm vehemence and determination against bullies, love to family and friends and consideration in our public voice. Who needs more depression? - let's inspire instead!

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 01:44:18PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:

On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 01:33:41PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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'We' have lost faith in our fellow humans to a high degree. We don't trust

Isn't distrusting enemies/those who deserve it/ common sense and best practice?

Indeed. I gnashing my teeth here and there over those dang humans, so very few can be trusted to behave rationally, let alone without the negative aspects of the mind and emotion - vindictiveness, anger, spite, envy, greed, lust, lynch-mobbingness etc.

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ourselves and so we don't trust our fellow 'citizens'. We put money,

Not trusting others doesn't necessarily mean you don't trust yourself.

As for practical anarchism, I consider it utopia (hi Juan ;) ) with the current sheeple.

An immediate transition, say removal of the state, would probably descend into gangs exacting vigilante justice on each other, causing a lot of damage, collateral damage, to humans and property, before eventually they figure out (if they/ the majority do figure anything out) that sanity requires a basic procedure of "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" and therefore a justice procedure which involves more than just "go bash the shit out of the person your mate says did the wrong thing".

Maybe the most plausible implementation of anarchism is if aliens colonize humans or possibly "teach" them how good anarchism is ;)

An external authority is indeed probably required with the current state of schooled humans, to educate them on internal authority and how best to exercise that, such as to syndicate in an objectively self interested way. Lynch mobbing demonstrates that most humans don't get past their first thought to a second thought. That's just asking a lot... evidently. So practically I believe we are left with attempts to create enclaves of like minded individuals - syndicates of self interested humans, limited in number, acting in mutual self interest, learning how to handle the different natures of one another. I do believe we are stuck with the state for the short to medium term, and I'd hate to see the last 20 years of US hegemonic demonic domination of the planet had Russia completely disintegrated with Yeltsin.