The Libertarian As Conservative - Bob Black https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/bob-black-the-libertarian-as-conserv... ------- I think Black's views are mostly accurate. Vast majority of people who pretend to be 'libertarians' are in reality rabid supporters of industrial fascism.
On Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 3:18:33 PM PDT, Punk <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
The Libertarian As Conservative - Bob Black
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/bob-black-the-libertarian-as-conserv...
-------
I think Black's views are mostly accurate. Vast majority of people who pretend to be 'libertarians' are in reality rabid supporters of industrial fascism.
When I first realized that I was already a libertarian, and always had been, in about 1975, it was always quite clear that Liberals, Leftists, and fellow-travellers hated (or at least strongly disliked) libertarianism. For reasons that are clear studying the Nolan Chart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart and the World's Smallest Political Quiz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Smallest_Political_Quiz The Right opposed libertarianism because libertarians promoted both personal and economic freedom, while the Right seemed to like only the latter.The Left opposed libertarianism because libertarians promoted both personal and economic freedom, while the Left seemed to like only the former. That made 'sense', so to speak. Not that the liberals and conservatives actually made sense. Jim Bell
On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 10:30:28PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
On Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 3:18:33 PM PDT, Punk <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
The Libertarian As Conservative - Bob Black
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/bob-black-the-libertarian-as-conserv...
-------
I think Black's views are mostly accurate. Vast majority of people who pretend to be 'libertarians' are in reality rabid supporters of industrial fascism.
When I first realized that I was already a libertarian, and always had been, in about 1975, it was always quite clear that Liberals, Leftists, and fellow-travellers hated (or at least strongly disliked) libertarianism. For reasons that are clear studying the Nolan Chart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart and the World's Smallest Political Quiz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Smallest_Political_Quiz The Right opposed libertarianism because libertarians promoted both personal and economic freedom, while the Right seemed to like only the latter.The Left opposed libertarianism because libertarians promoted both personal and economic freedom, while the Left seemed to like only the former.
That made 'sense', so to speak. Not that the liberals and conservatives actually made sense.
For a human to make sense, they need an education (rather than schooling), to order their 'thoughts', to use logic, to spot strawmen, etc etc. An educated nation of humans - there's some wistful hope...
On 3/26/19 6:22 PM, Punk wrote:
The Libertarian As Conservative - Bob Black
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/bob-black-the-libertarian-as-conserv...
-------
I think Black's views are mostly accurate. Vast majority of people who pretend to be 'libertarians' are in reality rabid supporters of industrial fascism.
An interesting article, but a little long winded and jargon heavy for my taste. I like radical propaganda that does not alienate "regular folks" on contact. When I see "Libertarian as Conservative" I mentally respond, "So what else is new?" If the Libertarian ideology of its leading U.S. advocates did not share key features with Conservative theory and practice, why would Republican operatives have taken the trouble to co-opt the Libertarian Party in a hostile buy-out back in the 1990s? Today our Libertarian speakers, authors and pretend-candidates work in tandem with the Republican Party: Both do their best to defend billionaires and their corporations from taxation, fight against unions as a matter of principle, assert the right of Corporate persons to destroy communities and natural resources to enhance shareholder value for absentee landlords, etc. When I think about the word "Conservative" as more than just an arbitrary label, I have to ask what the people involved want to "conserve." Libertarians I have personally known were interested in conserving their Middle Class status - real, aspirational or imaginary - against perceived assaults by lesser economic beings and, paradoxically, the State tyranny that makes their preferred way of life possible. Between Libertarian and Conservative I see differences in belief and style, but not in motives and actions. I would not describe Libertarians as "Conservatives who do drugs," but maybe as "Conservatives who have no use for fundamentalist religion." I think that hits the mark squarely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgf5TxHqjH0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Ed2zvfQF8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jeZmxz3LfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf01LMj8HTU Dont know where this fits in, but here's some sort of startup general freedom liberty person getting more or less shutdown by antifa: aka facists.
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:06:03 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
Between Libertarian and Conservative I see differences in belief and style, but not in motives and actions.
yes in practice all that 'libertarians' do is wprk and praise google, goldman sachs, facebook and all teh rest of corporate criminals.
I would not describe Libertarians as "Conservatives who do drugs," but maybe as "Conservatives who have no use for fundamentalist religion." I think that hits the mark squarely.
well that's funny because there actually are a lot of 'libertarians' who are fully deranged theocrats - many of them are part of the lew rockwell mafia and the moises.org 'institute' - see for reference https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/04/08/gary-north-the-libertarian-... scum like rockwell and jeffrey tucker(promoted in this list by grarpamp) are 'anarcho' CATHOLICS (infinite self parody) - but since they are really 'tolerant' they are accomplices of protestant nutcase north who wants to...stone heretics (no, I'm not making this shit up). So, the views of many 'libertarians' on jew-kkkristian religion are actually straight from the dark ages. There are very very few libertarians who speak against organized religion, also known as organized fraud but the majority of 'libertarians' are actual religious fraudsters or accomplices who 'tolerate' fraud and theocracy.
On 3/27/19 2:25 PM, Punk wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:06:03 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
Between Libertarian and Conservative I see differences in belief and style, but not in motives and actions.
yes in practice all that 'libertarians' do is wprk and praise google, goldman sachs, facebook and all teh rest of corporate criminals.
I would not describe Libertarians as "Conservatives who do drugs," but maybe as "Conservatives who have no use for fundamentalist religion." I think that hits the mark squarely.
well that's funny because there actually are a lot of 'libertarians' who are fully deranged theocrats - many of them are part of the lew rockwell mafia and the moises.org 'institute' - see for reference
https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/04/08/gary-north-the-libertarian-...
scum like rockwell and jeffrey tucker(promoted in this list by grarpamp) are 'anarcho' CATHOLICS (infinite self parody) - but since they are really 'tolerant' they are accomplices of protestant nutcase north who wants to...stone heretics (no, I'm not making this shit up).
So, the views of many 'libertarians' on jew-kkkristian religion are actually straight from the dark ages. There are very very few libertarians who speak against organized religion, also known as organized fraud but the majority of 'libertarians' are actual religious fraudsters or accomplices who 'tolerate' fraud and theocracy.
I guess it just shows to go ya: I must hang out with a hip crowd. I, too, would have to cite media personalities appearing in propaganda placements, to name a Libertarian who embraces the Religous Reich agenda. I am sure such folks must exist, somewhere (and that there is pr0n of it), but I would view THEM as Libertarian Heretics, who definitely need to get stoned, preferably on a Sunday morning. if 250 micrograms doesn't do it, double the dose. :o)
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 15:41:36 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
On 3/27/19 2:25 PM, Punk wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:06:03 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
Between Libertarian and Conservative I see differences in belief and style, but not in motives and actions.
yes in practice all that 'libertarians' do is wprk and praise google, goldman sachs, facebook and all teh rest of corporate criminals.
I would not describe Libertarians as "Conservatives who do drugs," but maybe as "Conservatives who have no use for fundamentalist religion." I think that hits the mark squarely.
well that's funny because there actually are a lot of 'libertarians' who are fully deranged theocrats - many of them are part of the lew rockwell mafia and the moises.org 'institute' - see for reference
https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/04/08/gary-north-the-libertarian-...
scum like rockwell and jeffrey tucker(promoted in this list by grarpamp) are 'anarcho' CATHOLICS (infinite self parody) - but since they are really 'tolerant' they are accomplices of protestant nutcase north who wants to...stone heretics (no, I'm not making this shit up).
So, the views of many 'libertarians' on jew-kkkristian religion are actually straight from the dark ages. There are very very few libertarians who speak against organized religion, also known as organized fraud but the majority of 'libertarians' are actual religious fraudsters or accomplices who 'tolerate' fraud and theocracy.
I guess it just shows to go ya: I must hang out with a hip crowd. I, too, would have to cite media personalities appearing in propaganda placements, to name a Libertarian who embraces the Religous Reich agenda.
I am sure such folks must exist, somewhere (and that there is pr0n of it), but I would view THEM as Libertarian Heretics,
Not sure what you mean. If you think I am handpicking a few 'heretics' among a set that's mostly composed of anti-clerical free-thinkers then you are mistaken. And this is just as it should be. Fake libertarians and true conservatives have to embrace pilars of conservatism such as economic corporatism and 'religious' corporatism (jew-kristianity) Yet another feature of these 'libertarians' is their rabid opposition to free speech and the idea that children are the 'property' of the parents. Both views are based on a laughable and fallacious 'theory' of 'property', which goes to show that these 'libertarians' do not actually value liberty.
who definitely need to get stoned, preferably on a Sunday morning. if 250 micrograms doesn't do it, double the dose.
:o)
On 3/27/19 4:03 PM, Punk wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 15:41:36 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
[...]
I guess it just shows to go ya: I must hang out with a hip crowd. I, too, would have to cite media personalities appearing in propaganda placements, to name a Libertarian who embraces the Religous Reich agenda.
I am sure such folks must exist, somewhere (and that there is pr0n of it), but I would view THEM as Libertarian Heretics,
Not sure what you mean. If you think I am handpicking a few 'heretics' among a set that's mostly composed of anti-clerical free-thinkers then you are mistaken.
I just go by the people I have known 'in real life' and folks I have corresponded with (and/or seen correspondence from) on teh interwebs. To date I have not seen Fundamentalist and Libertarian identities coexisting in one head. But hey, as I said I do not doubt it can happen - though I suspect that easily led fools who get their self-labeling directives confused would account for most cases.
And this is just as it should be. Fake libertarians and true conservatives have to embrace pilars of conservatism such as economic corporatism and 'religious' corporatism (jew-kristianity)
Ah so: "Fake Libertarians" resemble "true Conservatives" and display the same gang signs, so to speak. I can relate - see above. But since some "fake" guise own the rights to the Libertarian™ brand, and the infrastructure of the U.S. Libertarian Party, I find it convenient to just call them "Libertarians." A hypothetical not-fake-Libertarian, I would most likely call an Anarchist. But even so, I somehow missed seeing the association between the Libertarian Party, or the folks who call themselves Libertarians in online venues, and the Religious Reich's theocratic agenda. Could it be that "failure to denounce" other people's religious beliefs means one shares them? I would view that perception as the product of a Rebel As You Are Told propaganda regimen. We get that all the time, as part of a larger Divide The Conquered agenda that keeps electoral politics from having adverse impacts on the authority of the U.S. ruling class.
Yet another feature of these 'libertarians' is their rabid opposition to free speech and the idea that children are the 'property' of the parents. Both views are based on a laughable and fallacious 'theory' of 'property', which goes to show that these 'libertarians' do not actually value liberty.
Libertarians, fake or real per any kind of consensus definition, who show "rabid opposition to free speech"? I will need to see examples before I can comment on that. But I must admit to grave skepticism... :o/
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 19:24:48 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
Not sure what you mean. If you think I am handpicking a few 'heretics' among a set that's mostly composed of anti-clerical free-thinkers then you are mistaken.
I just go by the people I have known 'in real life' and folks I have corresponded with (and/or seen correspondence from) on teh interwebs. To date I have not seen Fundamentalist and Libertarian identities coexisting in one head.
Well, for what it's worth, I've met a few local 'libertarians' who were militant catholics.
But hey, as I said I do not doubt it can happen - though I suspect that easily led fools who get their self-labeling directives confused would account for most cases.
And this is just as it should be. Fake libertarians and true conservatives have to embrace pilars of conservatism such as economic corporatism and 'religious' corporatism (jew-kristianity)
Ah so: "Fake Libertarians" resemble "true Conservatives" and display the same gang signs, so to speak. I can relate - see above. But since some "fake" guise own the rights to the Libertarian™ brand, and the infrastructure of the U.S. Libertarian Party, I find it convenient to just call them "Libertarians."
yes, members The Party are sometimes referred to as big L libertarians.
A hypothetical not-fake-Libertarian, I would most likely call an Anarchist. But even so, I somehow missed seeing the association between the Libertarian Party, or the folks who call themselves Libertarians in online venues, and the Religious Reich's theocratic agenda.
If I came accross saying that people from the libertarian party were theocrats then my bad, that's not what I wanted to say. The 'libertarians' who are also militant christians are those associated with ron paul, lew rockwell and their 'ludwig von mises institute'. I do believe that faction of american 'libertarians' is a rather influential one. The other faction are the 'libertarians' associated with treason magazine and the koch brothers. The koch brothers faction is I think more anticlerical and that's the only good thing about them.
Could it be that "failure to denounce" other people's religious beliefs means one shares them?
Not necessarily. But I know well how the ron-paul-lew-rockwell mafia operates and I know that members of that mafia are either outright christiano-fascists, or people who seem completely unaware of the fact that their associates are christiano-fascists. So not denouncing one's pals who pretend to be 'libertarians' but in reality are theocrats means that one is an accomplice of theocracy, not a libertarian.
I would view that perception as the product of a Rebel As You Are Told propaganda regimen.
^-^ Yeah, you tried to put me in that category a couple of times. But you're mistaken. I don't need and I didn't need anyone to tell me that conservatives, religious or otherwise, are the enemy. I figured that out by myself =P
We get that all the time, as part of a larger Divide The Conquered agenda that keeps electoral politics from having adverse impacts on the authority of the U.S. ruling class.
If the christiano fascists were actually useful in overthrowing the ruling class I wouldn't mind some sort of 'alliance' with them. But...the christiano fascists ARE part of the ruling class...So the division is real as far as I'm concerned.
Yet another feature of these 'libertarians' is their rabid opposition to free speech and the idea that children are the 'property' of the parents. Both views are based on a laughable and fallacious 'theory' of 'property', which goes to show that these 'libertarians' do not actually value liberty.
Libertarians, fake or real per any kind of consensus definition, who show "rabid opposition to free speech"? I will need to see examples before I can comment on that. But I must admit to grave skepticism...
Well, again, not sure who you think are representatives of actual libertarianism but virtualy all of the ones I ever talk to believe that "property owners" can set "any rules they want" so free speech in practice DOES NOT EXIST. You can only say what the 'owners' allow you to say. So, here comes marxs fuckerberg ALLOWING 'holocaust denial' in his nsa bulleting board which means fukerberg is graciously allowing some 'free speech'. http://reason.com/blog/2018/07/21/robby-and-riggs-debate-censorship "Reason's Robby Soave and Mike Riggs debate whether Mark Zuckerberg should de-platform haters such as Alex Jones and Infowars to improve the user experience" Guess what? "Mike Riggs ... argues that by allowing obviously false and controversial material to be posted, Facebook is degrading the experience for the 99.9 percent of its users who aren't trolls." And the obvious 'solution' to that 'problem'? Why, even more censorship of course. "This isn't a question about First Amendment rights or government censorship. Facebook is a private company and can set the rules however it wants." i.e. no free speech. and more : https://fee.org/articles/human-rights-are-property-rights/ "In short, there are no human rights that are separable from property rights. The human right of free speech is only the property right to hire an assembly hall from the owners" that's from rothbard who is seen at least in some circles as the high pope of narcho capitalism, bla bla.
:o/
let me add one more datapoint. There's a guy called hans hoppe who is a 'leading' 'anarcho' fascist and a 'leading' 'intelectual' at moishe.org, moses.org or mises.org here is, in a sentence, what that clown thinks about 'libertarianism' and conservatism "The relationship between libertarianism and conservatism is one of praxeological compatibility, sociological complementarity, and reciprocal reinforcement." quote comes from a monumental joke of a book called "democracy the god that failed". Of course, every time that asshole says libertarianism he means his own fake version of it...which is indeed quite close to conservatism. I'm also quoting below some more hilarious stuff from that book --------- "nontraditional" lifestyles (homosexuality, lesbianism, communism, and occultism) -------- conservatives are concerned, as they should be, about the decay of families, divorce, illegitimacy, loss of authority, multiculturalism, alternative lifestyles, social disintegration, sex, and crime. All of these phenomena represent anomalies and scandalous deviations from the natural order. -------- Did this not imply that vulgarity, obscenity, profanity, drug use, promiscuity, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, polygamy, pedophilia or any other conceivable perversity or abnormality, insofar as they were victimless crimes, were no offenses at all but perfectly normal and legitimate activities and lifestyles? --------- requirements for entering specific pieces of property (for example, no beggars, bums, or homeless, but also no homosexuals, drug users, Jews, Moslems, Germans, or Zulus), and those who did not meet these entrance requirements would be kicked out as trespassers. Almost instantly, cultural and moral normalcy would reassert itself.
On 3/27/19 7:16 PM, Punk wrote:
let me add one more datapoint. There's a guy called hans hoppe who is a 'leading' 'anarcho' fascist and a 'leading' 'intelectual' at moishe.org, moses.org or mises.org
here is, in a sentence, what that clown thinks about 'libertarianism' and conservatism
"The relationship between libertarianism and conservatism is one of praxeological compatibility, sociological complementarity, and reciprocal reinforcement."
quote comes from a monumental joke of a book called "democracy the god that failed".
Of course, every time that asshole says libertarianism he means his own fake version of it...which is indeed quite close to conservatism.
Fake Libertarians seem to play a large part in this dialogue. Would you care to describe the difference between Fake and Real Libertarians, as you apply these terms? Until then we can only guess... :o)
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 19:27:34 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
Fake Libertarians seem to play a large part in this dialogue.
Would you care to describe the difference between Fake and Real Libertarians, as you apply these terms?
Until then we can only guess...
I think I gave more than a few hints, but for completness' sake : fake libertarians support, among other things : 1) big business 2) theocracy 3) censorship 4) the 'minimal' or 'limited' state 5) imperialism - see ayn rand's 'philosophy' of ethnic cleansing 6) 'voluntary' slavery - see walter block 7) feminazism 8) 'social conservatism' 9) 'voluntary' authoritarianism That's off the top of my head. There prolly is more stuff I'm forgetting. As to true or actual libertarians, they would oppose all of that.
:o)
On 3/28/19 8:12 PM, Punk wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 19:27:34 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
Fake Libertarians seem to play a large part in this dialogue.
Would you care to describe the difference between Fake and Real Libertarians, as you apply these terms?
Until then we can only guess...
I think I gave more than a few hints, but for completness' sake : fake libertarians support, among other things :
1) big business 2) theocracy 3) censorship 4) the 'minimal' or 'limited' state 5) imperialism - see ayn rand's 'philosophy' of ethnic cleansing 6) 'voluntary' slavery - see walter block 7) feminazism 8) 'social conservatism' 9) 'voluntary' authoritarianism
That's off the top of my head. There prolly is more stuff I'm forgetting. As to true or actual libertarians, they would oppose all of that.
So in short, Anarchists can call themselves Real Libertarians, but nobody else meets the standard. :o)
On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 20:22:02 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
On 3/28/19 8:12 PM, Punk wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 19:27:34 -0400 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
Fake Libertarians seem to play a large part in this dialogue.
Would you care to describe the difference between Fake and Real Libertarians, as you apply these terms?
Until then we can only guess...
I think I gave more than a few hints, but for completness' sake : fake libertarians support, among other things :
1) big business 2) theocracy 3) censorship 4) the 'minimal' or 'limited' state 5) imperialism - see ayn rand's 'philosophy' of ethnic cleansing 6) 'voluntary' slavery - see walter block 7) feminazism 8) 'social conservatism' 9) 'voluntary' authoritarianism
That's off the top of my head. There prolly is more stuff I'm forgetting. As to true or actual libertarians, they would oppose all of that.
So in short, Anarchists can call themselves Real Libertarians, but nobody else meets the standard.
Maybe? But there are a few more twists. 1) If you ask anarcho commies, they will tell you they are the only true anarchists. 2) libertarian : https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/libertarian "a person who upholds the principles of individual liberty especially of thought and action" That's a pretty straightforward, non-orwellian defintion. So every time some asshole who call himself a libertarian argues against freedom, he's lying. 3) Last but not least, even the highest priests of True Libertarianism (ask kurt buff haha) are completely untrustworthy. Here we have Ultra Libertarian Anarchist jakobo von rothbard(aka murray rothbard) instructing people...TO VOTE FOR GEORGE BUSH. Yeah, I'm not making this shit up https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-07-30-me-4460-story.html "Hold Back the Hordes for 4 More Years : Any sensible American has one real choice--George Bush."
participants (5)
-
grarpamp -
jim bell -
Punk -
Steve Kinney -
Zenaan Harkness