The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military. If the alleged ends of the tor project do not match the ends of the US military, the alleged tor ends are just a cover lie, or a lame half-truth at best. The real ends of the US military, are, of course, not 'officially' acknowledged though they are widely known, even among half-educated observers. The US military is the biggest criminal organization on the planet and its real purpose is to further the global interests of the US government and US fascist business. To do this they routinely invade countries and murder millions of people. Bear in mind the moral outlook of these people when analyzing their actions. Would the US military create an anonimity network that they can't subvert? Of course not. The tor network can prevent ordinary users A and B from learning their respective locations, but if a third party C (say, US government) can monitor A's and B's traffic, it can 'deanonimize' them. As a side note, tor can be and is routinely blocked, rendering it rather useless. In cases where tor could make people anonymous, at least from the point of view of servers like, say, IRC servers , access is blocked by the servers operators. So much for 'free speech'. Suming up, the first objective of the tor network is to give a 'gratis' and subverted 'tool' to...targets of government surveillance. Pure altruism. Another objective of the tor network is to get around the blocking system of, say, the chinese network. Since china is firewalled, the US military can't easily spy on chinese people. So, what the tor employees (accomplices of the fascist US governemnt) do is 1) pretend that they 'fight' for ' free speech' in china 2) gather information about people in china who, by using tor, signal that they are potentially 'interesting' to the US military. Again, the 'official' motives and the real motives do not match, ------------- So far, I got this far =P - Ill add more stuff later ....
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:14:04 +0200 rysiek <rysiek@hackerspace.pl> wrote:
Dnia niedziela, 29 czerwca 2014 18:04:02 Juan pisze:
The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military.
/me grabs popcorn
Well, thanks. I can finally put you in the correct category =)
On 2014-06-29, Juan wrote:
The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military.
Yes, well, fuck you. I read much of code, I run an exit node, and just fuck you and your germ line. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - decoy@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 czerwca 2014 02:25:06 Sampo Syreeni pisze:
On 2014-06-29, Juan wrote:
The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military.
Yes, well, fuck you. I read much of code, I run an exit node, and just fuck you and your germ line.
Oh, come on. I'm sure Juan has created a much better and much more independent project than Tor, and used by many, many more people in situations far more dangerous than what Tor even dares to touch. The very fact that we haven't heard of it shows how clandestine and well-managed it is. And I'm sure we'll all hear about this very project on this list, as soon as Juan gets the documentation in order (*obviously* the code is perfect, so no need to get that in order, duh!). While I applaud the strive for a perfect documentation before release, really Juan, "release early, release often"; we'd all be glad to help! -- Pozdr rysiek
Tor is funded by the US government, not the US military per se. The same US gov is funding research and efforts of breaking it. It's funding it to saveguard free speech and all that good stuff, and it's funding the attack to safeguard American supremacy (and maybe something about terrorism and crime). Somehow it seems as wonderfully inefficient as it seems perfectly reasonable. And if you don't think it's reasonable, doesn't that just make more sense? It's the USA! Is Tor imperfect? Yeah, probably. But it's the best tool out there atm. Is Tor intentionally imperfect? No evidence of it. Is reality a strange place to be? Definitely. Are Tor people completely untrustworthy? What's trust got to do with good code and crypto?
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 02:52:37AM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
Tor is funded by the US government, not the US military per se. The same US gov is funding research and efforts of breaking it.
Yup. Not only that, .gov organisations all have their own budgets and spending authority, most of them don't talk to each other, and a lot of them don't like each other. USG may be a hydra, but it's a hydra whose heads are so badly tied in knots that noticeable things only happen when one of the heads gets itself some wiggle room. Also, neither "government funding" or even "DoD funding" *necessarily* imply that DoD has any say over what ships. I don't think I'm the only Cyber Fast Track participant on this list, but https://github.com/UpstandingHackers/hammer was funded through CFT, and anyone is welcome to audit the source and read the commit logs; I can tell you who all the committers are, most aren't American, and the ones who are are me and my partner. Our interaction with DoD (or, well, our contract facilitator) consisted of "Here's the latest milestone" --> "make && make check worked, here's the money for that milestone" every few months. That's all. I hear some variation on the "Tor is a government op!" drum banged every six months or so, so I guess it was time. Can we at least get some variation this time, maybe spin some conspiracy theories about Paul Syverson instead of falling back on that tired old canard about Roger's internship? Or aliens? Working Area51 in would be cool. (Disclaimer: of course I don't think Syverson is a plant, nor do I think Tor is a honeypot. Do not harass Paul Syverson or his family, or the least I will do will be to throw a habanero martini in your face.) Cheers, --mlp
On Jun 30, 2014 4:28 AM, "Meredith L. Patterson" <mlp@upstandinghackers.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 02:52:37AM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte
wrote:
Tor is funded by the US government, not the US military per se. The same US gov is funding research and efforts of breaking it.
Yup. Not only that, .gov organisations all have their own budgets and spending authority, most of them don't talk to each other, and a lot of them don't like each other. USG may be a hydra, but it's a hydra whose heads are so badly tied in knots that noticeable things only happen when one of the heads gets itself some wiggle room.
Also, neither "government funding" or even "DoD funding" *necessarily* imply that DoD has any say over what ships. I don't think I'm the only Cyber Fast Track participant on this list, but https://github.com/UpstandingHackers/hammer was funded through CFT, and anyone is welcome to audit the source and read the commit logs; I can tell you who all the committers are, most aren't American, and the ones who are are me and my partner. Our interaction with DoD (or, well, our contract facilitator) consisted of "Here's the latest milestone" --> "make && make check worked, here's the money for that milestone" every few months. That's all.
I hear some variation on the "Tor is a government op!" drum banged every six months or so, so I guess it was time. Can we at least get some variation this time, maybe spin some conspiracy theories about Paul Syverson instead of falling back on that tired old canard about Roger's internship? Or aliens? Working Area51 in would be cool.
(Disclaimer: of course I don't think Syverson is a plant, nor do I think Tor is a honeypot. Do not harass Paul Syverson or his family, or the least I will do will be to throw a habanero martini in your face.)
Cheers, --mlp Juan,
I totally agree with you - I think its also important to note that there are some other things nefariously invented by the US military that you should investigate: Duct Tape The Internet You may find an incomplete list here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_invention Please let me know when your research on things I shouldn't use is complete. Please ensure that your arguments are half baked and sensationalist... actually I'm not worried. You've got this! In other news: It's good that you researched who originally created the technology. The motivations behind that and individuals involved are important pieces. Where the money comes from certainly is important. As well as picking up on the projects governance. This should make you wary of the Tor project - and prompt additional research. Should your technical or cultural research raise anything alarming - let someone know. This list is comprised of a good many intelligent and wary people who have carried out the same research - it has informed their use of the tool but so far not caused any wholesale abandonment. Travis
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 09:11:53 -0400 Travis Biehn <tbiehn@gmail.com> wrote:
Juan,
I totally agree with you - I think its also important to note that there are some other things nefariously invented by the US military that you should investigate: Duct Tape The Internet
Wow Travis. I must admit that you are one the greatest master of sarcasm I ever met. Perhaps the greatest. Of all times. Maybe you are some kind of phd or something ?
In other news: It's good that you researched who originally created the technology. The motivations behind that and individuals involved are important pieces. Where the money comes from certainly is important. As well as picking up on the projects governance. This should make you wary of the Tor project - and prompt additional research. Should your technical or cultural research raise anything alarming - let someone know.
Should I regard that paragraph as fuckingly retarded sarcasm, too? >The motivations behind that and individuals involved are important pieces No they arent >Where the money comes from certainly is important. No it isnt.
This list is comprised of a good many intelligent and wary people who have carried out the same research - it has informed their use of the tool but so far not caused any wholesale abandonment.
Travis
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 10:17:21 +0200 "Meredith L. Patterson" <mlp@upstandinghackers.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 02:52:37AM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
Tor is funded by the US government, not the US military per se. The same US gov is funding research and efforts of breaking it.
Yup. Not only that, .
Tor is partially funded by the ¨department of defense¨, former DEPARTMENT OF WAR. That is the fucking US military. Like I said, this mailing list is a joke. Even the neocon washington post has a more sensible view of tor than the resident tor zealots. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/06/the-feds-pays-f... ¨Last year, DoD funding accounted for more than 40 percent of the Tor Project's $2 million budget. ¨
Also, neither "government funding" or even "DoD funding" *necessarily* imply that DoD has any say over what ships.
Oh yes, of course, of course. Now that you have made it crystal clear, by divine assertion, I realize just how mistaken Ive been. You are tax parasites on the payroll of the US government, particularly the military, AND ¨freedom fighters¨ Congrats! gov organisations all have their own budgets and
spending authority, most of them don't talk to each other, and a lot of them don't like each other. USG may be a hydra, but it's a hydra whose heads are so badly tied in knots that noticeable things only happen when one of the heads gets itself some wiggle room.
Also, neither "government funding" or even "DoD funding" *necessarily* imply that DoD has any say over what ships. I don't think I'm the only Cyber Fast Track participant on this list, but https://github.com/UpstandingHackers/hammer was funded through CFT, and anyone is welcome to audit the source and read the commit logs; I can tell you who all the committers are, most aren't American, and the ones who are are me and my partner. Our interaction with DoD (or, well, our contract facilitator) consisted of "Here's the latest milestone" --> "make && make check worked, here's the money for that milestone" every few months. That's all.
I hear some variation on the "Tor is a government op!" drum banged every six months or so, so I guess it was time. Can we at least get some variation this time, maybe spin some conspiracy theories about Paul Syverson instead of falling back on that tired old canard about Roger's internship? Or aliens? Working Area51 in would be cool.
(Disclaimer: of course I don't think Syverson is a plant, nor do I think Tor is a honeypot. Do not harass Paul Syverson or his family, or the least I will do will be to throw a habanero martini in your face.)
Cheers, --mlp
Ok : first the conclusion. The % of braindead tor zealots in this list is higher than in tortalk. Yes, that makes it clear what kind of joke this ´cypherpunk´ mailing list is. Except mostly for posts from John Young, the content, and politics here are worse than what youd expect from joe sixpack. ¨rysek¨ ¨Oh, come on. I'm sure Juan has created a much better and much more independent project than Tor,¨ What I´ve done or have not done has nothing to do with the facts I mentioned and the soundness of my analysis. And yes. I, personally, am much more independent than people on the payroll of the US government, go figure. Sampo ¨Yes, well, fuck you. I read much of code, I run an exit node, and just fuck you and your germ line.¨ ¨fuck your germ line¨ Dear Sampo, it is too bad that your message has been written by a worthless shitbag (you) who cannot compose even basic english sentences. If you ever manage to reach some sort beginner´s level of english, so that you can communicate...anything meaningful - let me know. Lodevijk¨ And if you don't think it's reasonable, doesn't that just make more sense? It's the USA!¨ Right, the more absurd, the more sense it makes. \
Dnia wtorek, 20 maja 2014 20:13:15 Juan pisze:
Ok : first the conclusion. The % of braindead tor zealots in this list is higher than in tortalk. Yes, that makes it clear what kind of joke this ´cypherpunk´ mailing list is.
Except mostly for posts from John Young, the content, and politics here are worse than what youd expect from joe sixpack.
Yeah, I agree. This list is waaay too low for you. I mean, you can do so much better. I appreciate the pearls that you throw in front of us piglets here, but honestly, we're simply not able to comprehend (even less truly recognise the value of) them. Not really worth your time.
¨rysek¨ ¨Oh, come on. I'm sure Juan has created a much better and much more independent project than Tor,¨
It's "rysiek".
What I´ve done or have not done has nothing to do with the facts I mentioned and the soundness of my analysis.
How do we know you're not funded by the NSA to sow dissent in the community, smearing good projects and burning precious time of people involved in them? Not that it happens, right? Right? http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/02/25/0359246/nsa-and-ghcq-employing-shills...
And yes. I, personally, am much more independent than people on the payroll of the US government, go figure.
Nobody gives a fuck, go figure. :) -- Pozdr rysiek
On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 01:53:29 +0200 rysiek <rysiek@hackerspace.pl> wrote:
¨rysek¨ ¨Oh, come on. I'm sure Juan has created a much better and much more independent project than Tor,¨
It's "rysiek".
Oh I am so sorry my lord.
What I´ve done or have not done has nothing to do with the facts I mentioned and the soundness of my analysis.
How do we know you're not funded by the NSA to sow dissent in the community,
What community? The community of tax funded parasites who pretend to be freedom fighters? =) Notice a) the NSA has no interest in attacking those. They are their own people after all =) b) you are an enlightened __________ (fill in the blank) who doesnt believe in conspiracy theories. Or you just dont believe in them when it suits you?
smearing good projects and burning precious time of people involved in them? Not that it happens, right? Right?
Oh my god. It is a conspiracy against tor!!!
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/02/25/0359246/nsa-and-ghcq-employing-shills...
And yes. I, personally, am much more independent than people on the payroll of the US government, go figure.
Nobody gives a fuck, go figure. :)
Yeah I get that you are ¨nobody¨ =)
Juan, Thanks for taking the time to reply to my e-mail and welcome to the mailing list. I'll try harder next time! -Travis On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 01:53:29 +0200 rysiek <rysiek@hackerspace.pl> wrote:
¨rysek¨ ¨Oh, come on. I'm sure Juan has created a much better and much more independent project than Tor,¨
It's "rysiek".
Oh I am so sorry my lord.
What I´ve done or have not done has nothing to do with the facts I mentioned and the soundness of my analysis.
How do we know you're not funded by the NSA to sow dissent in the community,
What community? The community of tax funded parasites who pretend to be freedom fighters? =)
Notice
a) the NSA has no interest in attacking those. They are their own people after all =)
b) you are an enlightened __________ (fill in the blank) who doesnt believe in conspiracy theories. Or you just dont believe in them when it suits you?
smearing good projects and burning precious time of people involved in them? Not that it happens, right? Right?
Oh my god. It is a conspiracy against tor!!!
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/02/25/0359246/nsa-and-ghcq-employing-shills...
And yes. I, personally, am much more independent than people on the payroll of the US government, go figure.
Nobody gives a fuck, go figure. :)
Yeah I get that you are ¨nobody¨ =)
-- Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Sampo Syreeni <decoy@iki.fi> wrote:
On 2014-06-29, Juan wrote:
The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military.
Yes, well, fuck you. I read much of code, I run an exit node, and just fuck you and your germ line.
i actually don't see the problem with the "Tor must serve the interests of some of the US military" line, even if couched in most offensive manner above, "serves ... US military" the beauty of Tor specifically and anonymity networks in general is that proper privacy floats all boats! everyone should be using a good mix and overlay, the feds, the fuzz, the fuckups, and the fucktards. your mother, too. best regards, the most anonymous fuckwit
On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Sampo Syreeni <decoy@iki.fi> wrote:
On 2014-06-29, Juan wrote:
The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military.
Yes, well, fuck you. I read much of code, I run an exit node, and just fuck you and your germ line. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - decoy@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
You know those times you step away from the computer to have a life and you come back to something like this message…WTF did I miss?
This list is seriously full of FUD lately.. but then again, when has it not been? On the other hand. people should be aware of the limitations and problems inherent to any tool they use. For example, you can't put your hand under the place where you are slamming the hammer down. As Odinn, I have been compelled to remind Odinson of this from time to time. Here are some tidbits which may be relevant to the Tor-as-tool discussion and what to be aware of: (Note: This clear warning about some issues with certain aspects of use of Tor is from the Tor Project itself. They are right to provide cautionary information so that users of the project do not inadvertently harm themselves with the tools provided.) https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq#WarningsAboutSOCKSandDNSInformationLeaks (The following is a guide which may be helpful on issues both related to Tor as well as to other tools, which suggests use of SOCKS4A) https://lilithlela.cyberguerrilla.org/?p=5794 Have fun out there. And be careful with the hammer. -Odinn
The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military.
If the alleged ends of the tor project do not match the ends of the US military, the alleged tor ends are just a cover lie, or a lame half-truth at best.
The real ends of the US military, are, of course, not 'officially' acknowledged though they are widely known, even among half-educated observers.
The US military is the biggest criminal organization on the planet and its real purpose is to further the global interests of the US government and US fascist business. To do this they routinely invade countries and murder millions of people.
Bear in mind the moral outlook of these people when analyzing their actions.
Would the US military create an anonimity network that they can't subvert? Of course not.
The tor network can prevent ordinary users A and B from learning their respective locations, but if a third party C (say, US government) can monitor A's and B's traffic, it can 'deanonimize' them.
As a side note, tor can be and is routinely blocked, rendering it rather useless. In cases where tor could make people anonymous, at least from the point of view of servers like, say, IRC servers , access is blocked by the servers operators. So much for 'free speech'.
Suming up, the first objective of the tor network is to give a 'gratis' and subverted 'tool' to...targets of government surveillance. Pure altruism.
Another objective of the tor network is to get around the blocking system of, say, the chinese network. Since china is firewalled, the US military can't easily spy on chinese people.
So, what the tor employees (accomplices of the fascist US governemnt) do is
1) pretend that they 'fight' for ' free speech' in china
2) gather information about people in china who, by using tor, signal that they are potentially 'interesting' to the US military.
Again, the 'official' motives and the real motives do not match,
-------------
So far, I got this far =P - Ill add more stuff later ....
participants (11)
-
coderman -
Juan -
Lodewijk andré de la porte -
Meredith L. Patterson -
Odinn Cyberguerrilla -
rysiek -
Sadiq Saif -
Sampo Syreeni -
Scott Blaydes -
Steve Furlong -
Travis Biehn