On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 00:14:04 +0200 rysiek wrote:

Dnia niedziela, 29 czerwca 2014 18:04:02 Juan pisze:

...

The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military.

/me grabs popcorn

Well, thanks. I can finally put you in the correct category =)

Tor is funded by the US government, not the US military per se. The same US gov is funding research and efforts of breaking it. It's funding it to saveguard free speech and all that good stuff, and it's funding the attack to safeguard American supremacy (and maybe something about terrorism and crime). Somehow it seems as wonderfully inefficient as it seems perfectly reasonable. And if you don't think it's reasonable, doesn't that just make more sense? It's the USA! Is Tor imperfect? Yeah, probably. But it's the best tool out there atm. Is Tor intentionally imperfect? No evidence of it. Is reality a strange place to be? Definitely. Are Tor people completely untrustworthy? What's trust got to do with good code and crypto?

On Jun 30, 2014 4:28 AM, "Meredith L. Patterson" wrote:

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 02:52:37AM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte

wrote:

...

Tor is funded by the US government, not the US military per se. The same US gov is funding research and efforts of breaking it.

Yup. Not only that, .gov organisations all have their own budgets and spending authority, most of them don't talk to each other, and a lot of them don't like each other. USG may be a hydra, but it's a hydra whose heads are so badly tied in knots that noticeable things only happen when one of the heads gets itself some wiggle room.

Also, neither "government funding" or even "DoD funding" *necessarily* imply that DoD has any say over what ships. I don't think I'm the only Cyber Fast Track participant on this list, but https://github.com/UpstandingHackers/hammer was funded through CFT, and anyone is welcome to audit the source and read the commit logs; I can tell you who all the committers are, most aren't American, and the ones who are are me and my partner. Our interaction with DoD (or, well, our contract facilitator) consisted of "Here's the latest milestone" --> "make && make check worked, here's the money for that milestone" every few months. That's all.

I hear some variation on the "Tor is a government op!" drum banged every six months or so, so I guess it was time. Can we at least get some variation this time, maybe spin some conspiracy theories about Paul Syverson instead of falling back on that tired old canard about Roger's internship? Or aliens? Working Area51 in would be cool.

(Disclaimer: of course I don't think Syverson is a plant, nor do I think Tor is a honeypot. Do not harass Paul Syverson or his family, or the least I will do will be to throw a habanero martini in your face.)

Cheers, --mlp Juan,

I totally agree with you - I think its also important to note that there are some other things nefariously invented by the US military that you should investigate: Duct Tape The Internet You may find an incomplete list here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_invention Please let me know when your research on things I shouldn't use is complete. Please ensure that your arguments are half baked and sensationalist... actually I'm not worried. You've got this! In other news: It's good that you researched who originally created the technology. The motivations behind that and individuals involved are important pieces. Where the money comes from certainly is important. As well as picking up on the projects governance. This should make you wary of the Tor project - and prompt additional research. Should your technical or cultural research raise anything alarming - let someone know. This list is comprised of a good many intelligent and wary people who have carried out the same research - it has informed their use of the tool but so far not caused any wholesale abandonment. Travis

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 10:17:21 +0200 "Meredith L. Patterson" wrote:

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 02:52:37AM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:

...

Tor is funded by the US government, not the US military per se. The same US gov is funding research and efforts of breaking it.

Yup. Not only that, .

Tor is partially funded by the ¨department of defense¨, former DEPARTMENT OF WAR. That is the fucking US military. Like I said, this mailing list is a joke. Even the neocon washington post has a more sensible view of tor than the resident tor zealots. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/06/the-feds-pays-f... ¨Last year, DoD funding accounted for more than 40 percent of the Tor Project's $2 million budget. ¨

Also, neither "government funding" or even "DoD funding" *necessarily* imply that DoD has any say over what ships.

Oh yes, of course, of course. Now that you have made it crystal clear, by divine assertion, I realize just how mistaken Ive been. You are tax parasites on the payroll of the US government, particularly the military, AND ¨freedom fighters¨ Congrats! gov organisations all have their own budgets and

spending authority, most of them don't talk to each other, and a lot of them don't like each other. USG may be a hydra, but it's a hydra whose heads are so badly tied in knots that noticeable things only happen when one of the heads gets itself some wiggle room.

Also, neither "government funding" or even "DoD funding" *necessarily* imply that DoD has any say over what ships. I don't think I'm the only Cyber Fast Track participant on this list, but https://github.com/UpstandingHackers/hammer was funded through CFT, and anyone is welcome to audit the source and read the commit logs; I can tell you who all the committers are, most aren't American, and the ones who are are me and my partner. Our interaction with DoD (or, well, our contract facilitator) consisted of "Here's the latest milestone" --> "make && make check worked, here's the money for that milestone" every few months. That's all.

I hear some variation on the "Tor is a government op!" drum banged every six months or so, so I guess it was time. Can we at least get some variation this time, maybe spin some conspiracy theories about Paul Syverson instead of falling back on that tired old canard about Roger's internship? Or aliens? Working Area51 in would be cool.

(Disclaimer: of course I don't think Syverson is a plant, nor do I think Tor is a honeypot. Do not harass Paul Syverson or his family, or the least I will do will be to throw a habanero martini in your face.)

Cheers, --mlp

Dnia wtorek, 20 maja 2014 20:13:15 Juan pisze:

Ok : first the conclusion. The % of braindead tor zealots in this list is higher than in tortalk. Yes, that makes it clear what kind of joke this ´cypherpunk´ mailing list is.

Except mostly for posts from John Young, the content, and politics here are worse than what youd expect from joe sixpack.

Yeah, I agree. This list is waaay too low for you. I mean, you can do so much better. I appreciate the pearls that you throw in front of us piglets here, but honestly, we're simply not able to comprehend (even less truly recognise the value of) them. Not really worth your time.

¨rysek¨ ¨Oh, come on. I'm sure Juan has created a much better and much more independent project than Tor,¨

It's "rysiek".

What I´ve done or have not done has nothing to do with the facts I mentioned and the soundness of my analysis.

How do we know you're not funded by the NSA to sow dissent in the community, smearing good projects and burning precious time of people involved in them? Not that it happens, right? Right? http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/02/25/0359246/nsa-and-ghcq-employing-shills...

And yes. I, personally, am much more independent than people on the payroll of the US government, go figure.

Nobody gives a fuck, go figure. :) -- Pozdr rysiek

Juan, Thanks for taking the time to reply to my e-mail and welcome to the mailing list. I'll try harder next time! -Travis On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Juan wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 01:53:29 +0200 rysiek wrote:

...

...

¨rysek¨ ¨Oh, come on. I'm sure Juan has created a much better and much more independent project than Tor,¨

It's "rysiek".

Oh I am so sorry my lord.

...

...

What I´ve done or have not done has nothing to do with the facts I mentioned and the soundness of my analysis.

How do we know you're not funded by the NSA to sow dissent in the community,

What community? The community of tax funded parasites who pretend to be freedom fighters? =)

Notice

a) the NSA has no interest in attacking those. They are their own people after all =)

b) you are an enlightened __________ (fill in the blank) who doesnt believe in conspiracy theories. Or you just dont believe in them when it suits you?

...

smearing good projects and burning precious time of people involved in them? Not that it happens, right? Right?

Oh my god. It is a conspiracy against tor!!!

...

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/02/25/0359246/nsa-and-ghcq-employing-shills...

...

...

And yes. I, personally, am much more independent than people on the payroll of the US government, go figure.

Nobody gives a fuck, go figure. :)

Yeah I get that you are ¨nobody¨ =)

...

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On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

On 2014-06-29, Juan wrote:

...

The tor 'anonimity' network is a project of the US military. As such, it must serve the ends of the US military.

Yes, well, fuck you. I read much of code, I run an exit node, and just fuck you and your germ line. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - decoy@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2

You know those times you step away from the computer to have a life and you come back to something like this message…WTF did I miss?