Re: list of people censored on lists.debian.org
On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 11:26:27AM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 14/03/2020 14:17, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
Hi Daniel, your ongoing battle appears to be staunch, humorous, challenging, depressing, and uplifting all at the same time. We feel for ya.
Thanks for your feedback
I'm not an LWN subscriber so I can neither see nor comment on the thread you mentioned.
I emailed you a copy.
But from the title, I derived this: https://danielpocock.com/handling-attacks-on-volunteers-and-their-families/
Damn bro, thank you so much for sharing your story! These lines: .. "People tried to give me orders about what I can and can't tell the community who elected me to represent them." .. "If you have any doubts about this, you can check the DM keyring log, why would they move me to the DM keyring if I had done anything that would remotely justify an expulsion? Anybody on the DM keyring can still upload all of their packages. In what kind of organization do you expel or fire somebody and still keep asking them to do stuff for you like that?" .. [from a linked email] "Ian, How can you consider post hoc evidence gathering and justification to be ethical?" just absolutely nails it for me! Again, thank you for sharing, and thank you for your living of your principles! It is clear to many that not only Debian, but many other places in FLOSS land have been overrun by petty Nazis, and fragile snowflake like ones in particular.
I'm wondering if you ever subscribed to the cypherpunks mailing list last year? It's a small community, but passionate, and at least so far as the law allows, uncensored.
If it floats yer boat, perhaps join the rest of us outcast n.ggers at the cypherpunks corral ;)
It sounds interesting but the biggest challenge for me is always to serve the users. That's what being a real Debian Developer is about, it is written in the Debian Social Contract, point #4.
With users in mind, I'm working on some tools to neutralize harassment and abuse, for example, a Mozilla Thunderbird MailExtensions plugin for adding the BCC and List-* headers to each message. Then, if somebody feels they have been harassed by a list admin, they can continue participating in a conversation with minimum inconvenience.
At the moment no easy answers have presented themselves,
but there are some good answers that require a little bit of work. That is what I'm working on, that is why it is taking some time.
Sounds like a useful tool.
In any case, I've no doubt many are very proud of you, and of the posts you have no doubt "inspired", hint hint, nudge nudge, and a few of which have been leaked to the public (and to my very grateful eyes just now) by LWN:
Handling attacks on a community https://lwn.net/Articles/814508/
.. It is not hard to find examples of the kinds of messages that are being targeted (e.g. here, here, here, and here for fairly recent examples).
[Snowflake trigger warning, the next 4 messages may well trigger you if you are a CoC-wielding, wilting snowflake.]
delegation for the Anti-Anti-Harassment team https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/D8yjhiI1gZEt8XLHtzQI8NuwVViFQYh3UNoa7FtSy4...
access an independent, uncensored version of Planet Debian https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/959afc2e-a0ae-bbdc-14bc-3d0b93de8903@debia...
That particular link is not trolling, debian.community is simply an independent news site. Being independent, it is only natural that it will cover the issues that official newsletters will sidestep. It is 100% transparent, as explained on the About page.
No doubt this "100% transparency" is one of the reasons -some- folks don't like it :)
Outreachy favouritism and wasted Debian money https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/H3wJbOsvVY23EsMR7o0Y20StUbTWCkBFYV5KKlhez1...
are Debian mentors nuts? the DebConf scandal https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/ea-mime-5e072373-6227-653ea4a2@www-2.mailo...
It is also clear that many participants on the mailing list have concluded who is behind at least some of the anonymous/pseudonymous attacks: Daniel Pocock. In fact, Pocock was the subject of a different message from Hartman on debian-project; while he did not directly connect the dots between the messages and his action expelling Pocock from the Debian project entirely, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that the two are related. ...
Concluded? How do they reach that conclusion?
I don't know.
What you describe is witch hunting, the stuff people did in the stone age before humans discovered science[1].
Daniel, I agree - those words are a quote from the LWN.net article - apologies for any confusion.
There is no attempt to hide the source of the https://debian.community site, it is neither trolling nor anonymous.
Sending emails from a team address (like team@debian.community) is a pattern that many groups use now in the Free Software world to make themselves look bigger. debian.community is a parody of those patterns but it is not trolling. One message from debian.community to the debian-project list is not spam, it was clearly related to Debian. One on-topic message like that doesn't imply any connection whatsoever to thousands of unrelated troll messages in FSF, FSFE, Debian, etc.
FWIW, I do, naturally, agree with you.
Bravo muffaluggerah, bravo! :D Rip-roaringly bloody good posts, whether wink winked by yourself, or inspired via others..
FWIW Daniel, some of us wholeheartedly approve of your anti-PC crusade :) -- the "politically correct" bullshit being elevated in the world today is a form of insanity. Opposing such insanity is one of our sacred duties. But such insanity is being funded far and wide, so it can get a bit depressing at times :(
Anyway, hat tip to you, Daniel.
Notice I'm not being anti-PC. I'm pro-user, pro-volunteer. Its in the Debian Social Contract, point #4. That's why I feel confident as a Debian Developer, its about the principle of it.
The PC stuff is tangential: the problem is people who use PC as a convenient excuse for their personal advancement and do no other work.
"One of" the problems. Perhaps community segregation would help - segrate the snowflakes into one list/forum/etc, and those who don't want mommy's mollycoddling thank you very much, e.g.: men@functional.community snowCoCs@functional.community .. just a thought. Best regards, Zenaan
Regards, Daniel 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method -- Debian Developer https://danielpocock.com
Zenaan, it's a pleasure to see compliments and courtesy on this robotic, rude, intolerant, prejudiced, cantankerous, bilious, insulting, repugnant, monotously accusatory, blathering, knee-jerking, cowardly-psuedo-abusive, dot dot dot, forum. At 07:46 AM 3/15/2020, you wrote:
On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 11:26:27AM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 14/03/2020 14:17, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
Hi Daniel, your ongoing battle appears to be staunch, humorous, challenging, depressing, and uplifting all at the same time. We feel for ya.
Thanks for your feedback
I'm not an LWN subscriber so I can neither see nor comment on the thread you mentioned.
I emailed you a copy.
But from the title, I derived this: https://danielpocock.com/handling-attacks-on-volunteers-and-their-families/
Damn bro, thank you so much for sharing your story!
These lines:
.. "People tried to give me orders about what I can and can't tell the community who elected me to represent them."
.. "If you have any doubts about this, you can check the DM keyring log, why would they move me to the DM keyring if I had done anything that would remotely justify an expulsion? Anybody on the DM keyring can still upload all of their packages. In what kind of organization do you expel or fire somebody and still keep asking them to do stuff for you like that?"
.. [from a linked email] "Ian, How can you consider post hoc evidence gathering and justification to be ethical?"
just absolutely nails it for me!
Again, thank you for sharing, and thank you for your living of your principles!
It is clear to many that not only Debian, but many other places in FLOSS land have been overrun by petty Nazis, and fragile snowflake like ones in particular.
I'm wondering if you ever subscribed to the cypherpunks mailing list last year? It's a small community, but passionate, and at least so far as the law allows, uncensored.
If it floats yer boat, perhaps join the rest of us outcast n.ggers at the cypherpunks corral ;)
It sounds interesting but the biggest challenge for me is always to serve the users. That's what being a real Debian Developer is about, it is written in the Debian Social Contract, point #4.
With users in mind, I'm working on some tools to neutralize harassment and abuse, for example, a Mozilla Thunderbird MailExtensions plugin for adding the BCC and List-* headers to each message. Then, if somebody feels they have been harassed by a list admin, they can continue participating in a conversation with minimum inconvenience.
At the moment no easy answers have presented themselves,
but there are some good answers that require a little bit of work. That is what I'm working on, that is why it is taking some time.
Sounds like a useful tool.
In any case, I've no doubt many are very proud of you, and of the posts you have no doubt "inspired", hint hint, nudge nudge, and a few of which have been leaked to the public (and to my very grateful eyes just now) by LWN:
Handling attacks on a community https://lwn.net/Articles/814508/
.. It is not hard to find examples of the kinds of messages that are being targeted (e.g. here, here, here, and here for fairly recent examples).
[Snowflake trigger warning, the next 4 messages may well trigger you if you are a CoC-wielding, wilting snowflake.]
delegation for the Anti-Anti-Harassment team
https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/D8yjhiI1gZEt8XLHtzQI8NuwVViFQYh3UNoa7FtSy4...
access an independent, uncensored version of Planet Debian
https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/959afc2e-a0ae-bbdc-14bc-3d0b93de8903@debia...
That particular link is not trolling, debian.community is simply an independent news site. Being independent, it is only natural that it will cover the issues that official newsletters will sidestep. It is 100% transparent, as explained on the About page.
No doubt this "100% transparency" is one of the reasons -some- folks don't like it :)
Outreachy favouritism and wasted Debian money
https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/H3wJbOsvVY23EsMR7o0Y20StUbTWCkBFYV5KKlhez1...
are Debian mentors nuts? the DebConf scandal
https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/ea-mime-5e072373-6227-653ea4a2@www-2.mailo...
It is also clear that many participants on the mailing list
have concluded who is behind at least some of the anonymous/pseudonymous attacks: Daniel Pocock. In fact, Pocock was the subject of a different message from Hartman on debian-project; while he did not directly connect the dots between the messages and his action expelling Pocock from the Debian project entirely, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that the two are related.
...
Concluded? How do they reach that conclusion?
I don't know.
What you describe is witch hunting, the stuff people did in the stone age before humans discovered science[1].
Daniel, I agree - those words are a quote from the LWN.net article - apologies for any confusion.
There is no attempt to hide the source of the https://debian.community site, it is neither trolling nor anonymous.
Sending emails from a team address (like team@debian.community) is a pattern that many groups use now in the Free Software world to make themselves look bigger. debian.community is a parody of those patterns but it is not trolling. One message from debian.community to the debian-project list is not spam, it was clearly related to Debian. One on-topic message like that doesn't imply any connection whatsoever to thousands of unrelated troll messages in FSF, FSFE, Debian, etc.
FWIW, I do, naturally, agree with you.
Bravo muffaluggerah, bravo! :D Rip-roaringly bloody good posts, whether wink winked by yourself, or inspired via others..
FWIW Daniel, some of us wholeheartedly approve of your anti-PC crusade :) -- the "politically correct" bullshit being elevated in the world today is a form of insanity. Opposing such insanity is one of our sacred duties. But such insanity is being funded far and wide, so it can get a bit depressing at times :(
Anyway, hat tip to you, Daniel.
Notice I'm not being anti-PC. I'm pro-user, pro-volunteer. Its in the Debian Social Contract, point #4. That's why I feel confident as a Debian Developer, its about the principle of it.
The PC stuff is tangential: the problem is people who use PC as a convenient excuse for their personal advancement and do no other work.
"One of" the problems.
Perhaps community segregation would help - segrate the snowflakes into one list/forum/etc, and those who don't want mommy's mollycoddling thank you very much, e.g.:
men@functional.community
snowCoCs@functional.community
.. just a thought.
Best regards, Zenaan
Regards, Daniel 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method -- Debian Developer https://danielpocock.com
participants (2)
-
John Young -
Zenaan Harkness