On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 19:02:02 -0400 Steve Kinney wrote:

The inherent logical disconnect between anarchy and law enforcement underlines the irrelevance of /most/ debate about how an anarchist society should be run.

Learning what lunatics like berwick and co. think is valuable. And the idea that they are representatives of anarchist philosophy is of course completely laughable.

I prefer what used to be called frontier justice: When someone makes enough trouble to motivate enough people to do something about it, they act: Maybe a good talking-to; if that fails to curb the behavior in question, maybe running the offender out of town; if that seems inadequate to protect the community, maybe killing the bastard.

Who are you planning to kill, exactly? And what sort of 'crime' gets you first a 'talk' and then gets you murdered? Not sure how any of your comments addresses any of the points I made.

Frontier justice is not perfect, but it's the best system we have.

Compare the Libertarian belief that incorruptible Courts adjudicating tort claims,

yeah but not the point at hand. And anarchy isn't frontier 'justice' either. Whatever you mean by 'justice'.

on a level playing field where wealth, power, and political prejudice provide no advantages, can exist.

:o)

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 09:24:20PM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:

On 4/10/19 8:29 PM, Punk wrote:

...

On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 19:02:02 -0400 Steve Kinney wrote:

...

The inherent logical disconnect between anarchy and law enforcement underlines the irrelevance of /most/ debate about how an anarchist society should be run.

Learning what lunatics like berwick and co. think is valuable. And the idea that they are representatives of anarchist philosophy is of course completely laughable.

...

I prefer what used to be called frontier justice: When someone makes enough trouble to motivate enough people to do something about it, they act: Maybe a good talking-to; if that fails to curb the behavior in question, maybe running the offender out of town; if that seems inadequate to protect the community, maybe killing the bastard.

Who are you planning to kill, exactly? And what sort of 'crime' gets you first a 'talk' and then gets you murdered? Not sure how any of your comments addresses any of the points I made.

Nobody 'tall. But any society /will/ act to protect itself against people who exhibit chronic violent behavior - with exceptions where civilized societies reward that behavior so long as it serves the purposes of the worst offenders, its ruling class.

...

...

Frontier justice is not perfect, but it's the best system we have.

...

Compare the Libertarian belief that incorruptible Courts adjudicating tort claims,

yeah but not the point at hand. And anarchy isn't frontier 'justice' either. Whatever you mean by 'justice'.

Anarchy simply means the absence of a social command hierarchy acting through coercive means. Anarchism denotes theoretical consideration and rhetoric related to defining and implementing (relatively) nonviolent social conventions and behavior.

The word "justice" indicates "adjustment."

Lao Tzu say: "A man most conversant in the rites acts, but when no one responds, rolls up his sleeves and resorts to persuasion by force."

The most typical problems with any idealistic -ism arise when people take abstract ideas literally and try to apply them without consideration of material context in the real world. As guiding principles, abstractions like "anarchy" can deliver a lot of value; but as explicit instructions held to apply universally, they often achieve the exact opposite of their intended results.

Reminder of the town of anarchy: [ANARCHY] Town posts armed guards to stop contraband entry https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2018-July/042502.html A Mexican Town Overthrew Their Local Government And Things Are Going Great https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-02/mexican-town-overthrew-their-local... The town of Cherán, Mexico was once plagued… Cherán is now run by autonomous groups of armed individuals… members of an autonomous militia — guard every entrance to the town, looking for strangers with contraband… “Contraband” would be considered political propaganda posters of those who claim the right to rule other human beings. …Cherán has achieved something unthinkable in Michoacán: a dramatic drop in murder rates, with rates for other serious crimes hovering at nearly zero. For those in Mexico, especially in an election year marred by wanton political murders, Cherán stands as proof that, in the country’s entrenched cycle of violence, the key ingredient to that violence is the state.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 12:40:09AM -0300, Punk wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 21:24:20 -0400 Steve Kinney wrote:

...

...

Who are you planning to kill, exactly? And what sort of 'crime' gets you first a 'talk' and then gets you murdered? Not sure how any of your comments addresses any of the points I made.

Nobody 'tall. But any society /will/ act to protect itself against people who exhibit chronic violent behavior -

you must be referring to people like berwick and his summary executions of 'pedophiles'?

By the way, I assume that berwick is going to execute children who 'play doctor' too, since such children are, well, 'pedophiles' themselves.

...

with exceptions where civilized societies reward that behavior so long as it serves the purposes of the worst offenders, its ruling class.

and that such exceptions actually include all 'civilized' societies in which mass murder is completely institutionalized and worshiped. You know, like the western cesspool, especially the USA, etc.

...

...

...

Frontier justice is not perfect, but it's the best system we have.

...

Compare the Libertarian belief that incorruptible Courts adjudicating tort claims,

yeah but not the point at hand. And anarchy isn't frontier 'justice' either. Whatever you mean by 'justice'.

Anarchy simply means the absence of a social command hierarchy acting through coercive means.

Anarchy means more than that. It means a social order based on voluntary cooperation. And whether interactions are voluntary or not is defined at the individual level. It's also a rationalistic anti-authoritarian philosophy, so it can make a few devastating comments on things like jew-christian theocracy, for instance.

...

Anarchism denotes theoretical consideration and rhetoric related to defining and implementing (relatively) nonviolent social conventions and behavior.

Not just 'nonviolent' but consensual.

Consent is purported or "deemed" to be non-existent for children until the day of their 16th birthday. To "deem" something is to say that that which is, is not what it is, or does not exist when it does exist, or does exist when it does not in fact exist. Deeming is demonic in principle, i.e. enforced/fiat denial of reality. Deeming is for power structures, psychological control or torture, the enforcement of submission to the will of another - "psychological rape" if you will, with the ultimate goal being self-censorship (self psychological rape?) Discussion of childhood sexuality in the present milieu of SJW terrorists, typically leads to superficially cheap and dangerous slurs, ad-homs and calls for murder, since it's all dichomatic black and white certainties and finalities, "one's personal childhood experiences of playing doctor be damned".

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The word "justice" indicates "adjustment."

Nah. The word justice indicates justice =) It's a word stolen from latin "justitia" (spanish justicia). "Adjustment' may come from the same root but it's a derived word and has a different meaning.

roman justice was even personified or made into a godess although roman justice was rather flawed. Regardless, the libertarian concept of justice stands. Justice being the state in which personal rights are respected, or restitution for rights violations is paid(to the extent possible)

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Lao Tzu say: "A man most conversant in the rites acts, but when no one responds, rolls up his sleeves and resorts to persuasion by force."

The most typical problems with any idealistic -ism arise when people take abstract ideas literally and try to apply them without consideration of material context in the real world. As guiding principles, abstractions like "anarchy" can deliver a lot of value; but as explicit instructions held to apply universally, they often achieve the exact opposite of their intended results.

That's kinda vague? But maybe you are referring to 'anarcho' fascists like berwick and the like? They perfectly fit my previous comments about fake libertarians and true fascists.

I bet if you criticize google, amazon and the rest of the NSA, berwick and his pal jakobo would go into hysterical pro-corporate propaganda mode, just like their accomplice, scumbag jeffrey tucker

https://mises.org/library/movie-gets-it-right

https://allevents.in/acapulco/anarchapulco-2019-with-jeffrey-tucker/20002435...

et cetera.

...

:o)

On 4/10/19 11:40 PM, Punk wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 21:24:20 -0400 Steve Kinney wrote:

...

...

Who are you planning to kill, exactly? And what sort of 'crime' gets you first a 'talk' and then gets you murdered? Not sure how any of your comments addresses any of the points I made.

Nobody 'tall. But any society /will/ act to protect itself against people who exhibit chronic violent behavior -

you must be referring to people like berwick and his summary executions of 'pedophiles'?

By the way, I assume that berwick is going to execute children who 'play doctor' too, since such children are, well, 'pedophiles' themselves.

Spotlights and laughter should cut a guy like this Berwick down to size, where/as required. The beauty part: If a more creative response becomes necessary, the attention already attracted to him would make such a response more practicable.

...

with exceptions where civilized societies reward that behavior so long as it serves the purposes of the worst offenders, its ruling class.

and that such exceptions actually include all 'civilized' societies in which mass murder is completely institutionalized and worshiped. You know, like the western cesspool, especially the USA, etc.

Of course. I did say "civilization."

...

Anarchy simply means the absence of a social command hierarchy acting through coercive means.

Anarchy means more than that. It means a social order based on voluntary cooperation. And whether interactions are voluntary or not is defined at the individual level. It's also a rationalistic anti-authoritarian philosophy, so it can make a few devastating comments on things like jew-christian theocracy, for instance.

[...]

...

Anarchism denotes theoretical consideration and rhetoric related to defining and implementing (relatively) nonviolent social conventions and behavior.

Not just 'nonviolent' but consensual.

"Consensual" presents as a subset of "nonviolent."

...

The word "justice" indicates "adjustment."

Nah. The word justice indicates justice =) It's a word stolen from latin "justitia" (spanish justicia). "Adjustment' may come from the same root but it's a derived word and has a different meaning.

roman justice was even personified or made into a godess although roman justice was rather flawed. Regardless, the libertarian concept of justice stands. Justice being the state in which personal rights are respected, or restitution for rights violations is paid(to the extent possible)

She weighs events in the balance, blindfolded, while holding a sword. She measures, cuts and adjusts until the pans come out level. Witness the civilizing influence of the law at work. I would much rather see a simple attitude adjustment tried way before some strange woman breaks out the pointy hardware.

...

Lao Tzu say: "A man most conversant in the rites acts, but when no one responds, rolls up his sleeves and resorts to persuasion by force."

The most typical problems with any idealistic -ism arise when people take abstract ideas literally and try to apply them without consideration of material context in the real world. As guiding principles, abstractions like "anarchy" can deliver a lot of value; but as explicit instructions held to apply universally, they often achieve the exact opposite of their intended results.

That's kinda vague? But maybe you are referring to 'anarcho' fascists like berwick and the like? They perfectly fit my previous comments about fake libertarians and true fascists.

To clarify what I meant to say: People who imagine themselves absolutely right and act on that basis can turn anything into a moral excuse for tyranny. Even anarchism.

I bet if you criticize google, amazon and the rest of the NSA, berwick and his pal jakobo would go into hysterical pro-corporate propaganda mode, just like their accomplice, scumbag jeffrey tucker

Tons of pop culture, corporate media references, and political literature present anarchism a sort of violent nihilism. To one or another extent, the century-plus long full spectrum saturation Big Lie propaganda campaign against anarchism and anarchists affects everyone, including self identifying anarchists. To see working models of Frontier Justice in action, try participating in independent groups that do organized events and actions, and watch for this: A petty tyrant who calls himself an anarchist shows up (it's nearly always a guy) and must have his way - regardless of whether his way cuts right across the grain of consensus activities already in progress, alienate useful constituencies and alliances that took time and effort to build, and/or etc. He must have his way, and from his ultimate moral high ground he can win any argument about that, one way or another. Go to enough meetings and events and one of those will eventually turn up. Check out how the more experienced anarchists - if any - manage his case: If they know their business they will salvage him - if possible. That starts with 'active listening' and probing for common ground, and often ends with a valuable new community member. If instead he gets firmly invited to leave, that would most likely indicate a history of violence against other participants - but don't assume, find out. "Real ultimate fighting means learning to be friends." - The Covert Comic

https://mises.org/library/movie-gets-it-right

https://allevents.in/acapulco/anarchapulco-2019-with-jeffrey-tucker/20002435...

Well bless his heart, looking at that took 30 seconds I won't get back. The Tar Baby Principle says "you are attached to what you attack." I don't want to get any of that Tucker stuff on me. :o)

Screen shots of Assange arrest, resisting limp and shouting: https://cryptome.org/assange-arrested.jpg https://cryptome.org/assange-arrested2.jpg https://cryptome.org/assange-arrested3.jpg