https://lwn.net/Articles/814953/ Posted Mar 15, 2020 1:54 UTC (Sun) by zenaan (subscriber, #3778) [Link]

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"Snowflakes" want momma to make all the bad words disappear. Just like you crying here, begging for CoCs to disappear? What a broflake.

Not what I said, but meh... So is it fair to assume then that you agree with all the resignations (RMS), knee-bending (Torvalds), and turmoil (openSUSE and many others)? It is of course your right to agree with such treatment of various founders, as we have witnessed a fair bit of in recent times. Good lessons for future founders (to enshrine their "broflake" power CoCs before the snowflakes have a chance to usurp power and damage the founders). Long term, I believe this is a functional parting of the ways between humans with different preferred ways of being in this world. The CoC for those of robust temperament, is a different CoC to those of snowflake temperament. Snowflakes are entitled to their CoC, "broflakes" and those who prefer more freedom in their communication environment, are entitled to their CoC - although I have yet to see a broflake CoC in writing :) In the mean time we continue in this time of turmoil where unspoken expectations of some, in some cases many, have begun to be put first into CoCs and then into force, and this clash of expectations and turmoil is made public. Over, and over, again. I have a sneaking suspicion that the "broflakes", those of robust emotional temperament, though evidently a minority, are inherently pioneers, willing and able to blaze new trails which few others see or would dare, until the land is cleared and first settlements built. Most are settlers or homies. 'Tis the way of things. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 01:18:17AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

Handling attacks on a community https://lwn.net/Articles/814916/

Posted Mar 14, 2020 14:15 UTC (Sat) by zenaan (subscriber, #3778) [Link] Codes of Conduct (CoC) have become expected, imposed and as we see, enforced.

Many folks today appear to be what is colloquially termed "snowflakes" - so emotionally fragile that even giving a (any, whatsoever) trigger warning, is considered itself "triggering" and therefore subject to CoC censorship, etc., see e.g. https://reason.com/2018/07/29/triggered-by-trigger-warnings/

This is depressing to see - from Linus Torvalds and the Linux Foundation, to Git in recent times, to Richard Stallman (RMS), founder of the Free Software Foundation (USA) being "resigned" by the so-called "FSF community", and of course Debian and most other FLOSS "communities".

It is true - holding strictly to certain principles such as freedom of speech (modulo "that which is not actually unlawful"), is not easy, likely not possible, for a "community" that wants to be maximally inclusive of humans with fragile egos and/or fragile emotional natures).

So as humans we are different, with different needs and different wants. "Snowflakes" want momma to make all the bad words disappear. Staunch free speech upholders want rigorous and robust discussions, with the right to, at least sometimes, offend the "wilting flower" types.

These two types of communities are to some degree not compatible.

Either bend the knee as Linus Torvalds has done, and to some extent RMS, or advocate for your preferred environment, or create your preferred environment - but to attack a so called "community" which has, by the authority of those in authority in that community, expelled you from that community, is probably a fruitless and counter productive exercise.

Embrace your truth, and find others of like spirit/temperament, and create that which you are moved to create.

On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 12:18:15AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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Hi Daniel,

your ongoing battle appears to be staunch, humorous, challenging, depressing, and uplifting all at the same time. We feel for ya.

I'm wondering if you ever subscribed to the cypherpunks mailing list last year? It's a small community, but passionate, and at least so far as the law allows, uncensored.

If it floats yer boat, perhaps join the rest of us outcast n.ggers at the cypherpunks corral ;)

At the moment no easy answers have presented themselves, in respect of an existing "community" such as Debian, except to rebuild a worthy community from scratch, with vigilant anti-censorship at its foundation, and in the face of what's happened to Linus, RMS and ESR in the last 12 months, "founders right to be and make an ass of him or herself" I guess :D (since of course, that which makes an ass of onesself, is of course in the eye of the snowflake, e.g. https://babylonbee.com/news/massive-plank-appears-in-adam-schiffs-eye-as-he-...).

In any case, I've no doubt many are very proud of you, and of the posts you have no doubt "inspired", hint hint, nudge nudge, and a few of which have been leaked to the public (and to my very grateful eyes just now) by LWN:

Handling attacks on a community https://lwn.net/Articles/814508/

.. It is not hard to find examples of the kinds of messages that are being targeted (e.g. here, here, here, and here for fairly recent examples).

[Snowflake trigger warning, the next 4 messages may well trigger you if you are a CoC-wielding, wilting snowflake.]

delegation for the Anti-Anti-Harassment team https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/D8yjhiI1gZEt8XLHtzQI8NuwVViFQYh3UNoa7FtSy4...

access an independent, uncensored version of Planet Debian https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/959afc2e-a0ae-bbdc-14bc-3d0b93de8903@debia...

Outreachy favouritism and wasted Debian money https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/H3wJbOsvVY23EsMR7o0Y20StUbTWCkBFYV5KKlhez1...

are Debian mentors nuts? the DebConf scandal https://lwn.net/ml/debian-project/ea-mime-5e072373-6227-653ea4a2@www-2.mailo...

It is also clear that many participants on the mailing list have concluded who is behind at least some of the anonymous/pseudonymous attacks: Daniel Pocock. In fact, Pocock was the subject of a different message from Hartman on debian-project; while he did not directly connect the dots between the messages and his action expelling Pocock from the Debian project entirely, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that the two are related. ...

Bravo muffaluggerah, bravo! :D Rip-roaringly bloody good posts, whether wink winked by yourself, or inspired via others..

FWIW Daniel, some of us wholeheartedly approve of your anti-PC crusade :) -- the "politically correct" bullshit being elevated in the world today is a form of insanity. Opposing such insanity is one of our sacred duties. But such insanity is being funded far and wide, so it can get a bit depressing at times :(

Anyway, hat tip to you, Daniel.

Here's a cypherpunks post from a while back which is sort of on-topic (it's a couple 4 letter words, so a bit guttery):

Git falls https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2019-November/077317.html

On a completely related topic to this "Git falls" email, "get black holed, start oil drilling".

Best regards, Zenaan

On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 11:22:19AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 11:21:58PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:

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Hi all,

I've been looking through debian-private and I found messages from Alexander Wirt (formorer) about censoring various people from lists.debian.org. Some of those messages appear to be defamatory. You are in BCC because your name appears in debian-private.

I've written a blog to help people work around censorship and other dishonest practices, please tell me if this is helpful for you:

https://danielpocock.com/freedom-and-censorship-on-mailing-lists/

Does anybody know any other victims of censorship in Debian or any other free software community?

Stay free,

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Thank you very much for the time and care you've taken to write up your above blog.

It's always reassuring to see someone notice, let alone take action, in relation to one or another of our freedoms - be that the freedom to communicate, the freedom to move and travel anonymously within our communities, or the freedom to engage in a vigorous and vicious verbal stoush with a "sworn arch enemy" for a few days, and turn around afterwards and still continue communicating with them - or not - as we so freely choose.

When the screaming banshee snowflakes do all in their power to drown out discussion of rights, principles and freedoms because "muh safe space" and "how dare you f*ck with my safe comfy space, I'll have you censored, hounded out of the community, and have you lose your job to boot, because you said something I don't like", unfrotunately there are some list admins who happily ban the one exercising the free speech, and not the one wanting to "shut it all down, muh safe space!"

And so the bannings, kickings, or worse even the shadow bannings are imposed and dissent is met with more bannings and finally a massive swinging CoC dangled in front "the community" - a set of rules or most often just a statement or 3 about how we having to be good to one another, which CoC is thereafter used as the justification for more bannings and censorship.

If there is to be any line in the sand, what ought that line be?

From a mailing list administrator's point of view, expecting them to oppose "the statute law" is too much - many would simply close up shop altogether.

So in our present world, that is perhaps, perhaps, the only reasonably acceptable line for "you've crossed the line on free speech", and even then bannings or removal probably should not happen unless a court order is served on the list administrator.

That's called presumption of innocence and assuming we do in fact have the right to live our rights.

I appreciate your blog, and perhaps a few on the CypherPunks list may also appreciate it - CyphePunks is one of the few mailing lists that still strives to be staunch in standing for free speech - including the right of those who want to say "shut it down". Not the easiest journey apparently...

Re RMS, I emailed him and encouraged him to withdraw his respective resignations (from FSF and MIT) - I don't know what the current status is.

The email may be found here: reaching out -- was Re: Richard Stallman Gets SJW'd https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2019-September/076425.html

And there's a whole (17 email) thread earlier, starting here: https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2019-September/076395.html

Although a Google (Jewgle) search for "stallman site:lists.cpunks.org": https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=stallman+site%3Alists.cpunks.org&oq=&aqs=

Brings up as at 20191009 11:15, only the following FOUR results: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2018-November/073667.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwil7u3X8o3lAhVDNY8KHShlBIYQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0UWKX3FCLuktqWXrNgk7jL https://www.google.com/url?q=https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-January/051703.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwil7u3X8o3lAhVDNY8KHShlBIYQFjABegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw1Nn9nXiGFSaKCI0YUev9eF https://www.google.com/url?q=https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2018-November/043886.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwil7u3X8o3lAhVDNY8KHShlBIYQFjACegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3Oq0pcmX57hteVnBLAW6xv https://www.google.com/url?q=https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2018-November/043880.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwil7u3X8o3lAhVDNY8KHShlBIYQFjADegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2gLWxmerK0hZ8xF__85HsX

And do NOTE, I have disabled google's "safe search" and anything similar I could find.

This campaign/war against our basic rights, goes incredibly deep, right into the heart of "Silicon Valley" in bed with the NSA, CIA etc.

See also: on the necessity of a @snowflake codedoc annotation https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2018-November/043880.html

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 01:48:49PM +1000, jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

On 2020-03-15 11:58, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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So is it fair to assume then that you agree with all the resignations (RMS), knee-bending (Torvalds), and turmoil (openSUSE and many others)?

It is of course your right to agree with such treatment of various founders, as we have witnessed a fair bit of in recent times. Good lessons for future founders (to enshrine their "broflake" power CoCs before the snowflakes have a chance to usurp power and damage the founders).

Long term, I believe this is a functional parting of the ways between humans with different preferred ways of being in this world.

The CoC for those of robust temperament, is a different CoC to those of snowflake temperament.

Empiricaly, we observe that projects with a CoC suffer bitrot, which bitrot is likely to prove fatal in the long run.

Need a CoC that is hostile to snowflakes, and outright bans social justice warriors in total.

"Intuitively" this feels correct to me, but I don't know that anyone's put the IQ cycles into tabulation and summary yet .. though I await to be pleasantly surprised :)