On Saturday, December 22, 2018, 7:06:34 PM PST, juan wrote:

From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 11:06:29 PDT

...

...

...

To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Some (Pseudo)Random Thoughts

...

Networks are multiplying beyond any hope of government control,

     >   prophetic words. Except the prophesy was 100% wrong =) =( But I wouldn't blame Tim May.  26 years is "forever" in technology.   26 years ago, very few people had even heard of the "Internet".  

...

bandwidths are skyrocketing, CPUs are putting awesome power on our desktops, PGP is generating incredible interest, and social trends are making the time right for crypto anarchy.

And yet, 25 years later, we are closer than ever to crypto-techno-totalitarianism.

Don't blame me!  I told everyone in 1995 how to get rid of all government.  I wouldn't have been surprised if it had taken 10 years, but so far, it's been 23 years.   Ever heard the joke whose punchline is,  "He sent two boats and a helicopter!   What more did you want?"   https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fumbling-change/200905/two-boats-and...                       Jim Bell | | | | | | | | | | | Two Boats and a Helicopter: Thoughts on Stress Management I think about this joke a lot more than I wish I did. | | | ×

On Sunday, December 23, 2018, 2:03:06 PM PST, juan wrote: On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 09:47:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell wrote:

...

But I wouldn't blame Tim May. 

    To be fair, here  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcC0RNsallc is Tim May stating

    "The US and other societies around the world are facing a turning point, a fork in the road where one path leads to a surveillance society effectively where people have television cameras recording their actions and conversations on a computer, all their transactions at stores, everything is completely tracked.

    The other path, the other fork in the road moves in a direction where governments can't even collect taxes anymore because they don't know what interactions people are making. People are buying things and information from other countries and they won't even know in what countries the transactions are taking place."

    That's a 1997 japanese documentary about crypto. By the way, looks like the japanese 'forgot' to include you Jim. Then again, the video comes from the japanese government...

...

26 years is "forever" in technology.   26 years ago, very few people had even heard of the "Internet".  

    Actually in the last 26 years there hasn't been any significant 'technological' change *at all*. The only thing that happened is that microelectronics got relatively cheaper.

You forgot that in 1992, typical dialup modems worked at 9600 bps.  Now, most people have access to 25 megabits/sec Internet.   I occasionally see people in discussion areas claim that "the U.S. Government" was responsible for making "The Internet".I shut that talk down, by pointing out "Do you think that The Internet would have 'worked' if a person, at home, had to connect up to his ISP at with a 300 bps modem?  1200 bps?  2400 bps?"I counter by pointing out that the people REALLY responsible for a usable Internet were those who developed the 9600 bps, 14,400 bps, and 28,800 bps modems.  Rockwell, USR (US Robotics), Hayes, Telebit, and a few others.  Had that not existed, it would have been hard to make the Internet available to most people.   From:     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem  "V.32 modems operating at 9600 bit/s were expensive and were only starting to enter the market in the early 1990s when V.32bis was standardized. Rockwell International's chip division developed a new driver chip set incorporating the standard and aggressively priced it. Supra, Inc. arranged a short-term exclusivity arrangement with Rockwell, and developed the SupraFAXModem 14400based on it. Introduced in January 1992 at $399 (or less), it was half the price of the slower V.32 modems already on the market. This led to a price war, and by the end of the year V.32 was dead, never having been really established, and V.32bis modems were widely available for $250.V.32bis was so successful that the older high-speed standards had little to recommend them. USR fought back with a 16,800 bit/s version of HST, while AT&T introduced a one-off 19,200 bit/s method they referred to as V.32ter, but neither non-standard modem sold well." And:    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem  V.34/28.8 kbit/s and 33.6 kbit/s × × "Any interest in these proprietary improvements was destroyed during the lengthy introduction of the 28,800 bit/s V.34 standard. While waiting, several companies decided to release hardware and introduced modems they referred to as V.FAST. In order to guarantee compatibility with V.34 modems once the standard was ratified (1994), the manufacturers were forced to use more flexible parts, generally a DSP and microcontroller, as opposed to purpose-designed ASIC modem chips. "The ITU standard V.34 represents the culmination of the joint efforts. It employs the most powerful coding techniques including channel encoding and shape encoding. From the mere four bits per symbol (9.6 kbit/s), the new standards used the functional equivalent of 6 to 10 bits per symbol, plus increasing baud rates from 2,400 to 3,429, to create 14.4, 28.8, and 33.6 kbit/s modems. This rate is near the theoretical Shannon limit. When calculated, the Shannon capacity of a narrowband line is {\displaystyle {\text{bandwidth}}\times \log _{2}(1+P_{u}/P_{n})}, with {\displaystyle P_{u}/P_{n}} the (linear) signal-to-noise ratio. Narrowband phone lines have a bandwidth of 3,000 Hz so using {\displaystyle P_{u}/P_{n}=1000} (SNR = 30 dB), the capacity is approximately 30 kbit/s.[7] [end of quote] It took a lot of work to learn how to shove 28.8Kbits/sec down a 3000 Hz channel.  By and large, those people who did that were the ones who made the Internet of the late 90's possible.                         Jim Bell

I LIKE TO SAY: PURITY IS A COFFIN some freedom some imprisonment - just like life we are free we just happen to be experiencing life in a very limited container so what about those pesky little undersea cables all going to the turtle island - u s of a ? umn without them we got nothin goin too fast anywheres when did they get laid ? 1854 by a coorporation life is a build and dualism has run its course ... good and bad boys do good and bad things and sometimes what they do that is considered bad ends up being overall good and vice versa happy winter solstice - when the sun is still - all the beautiful people on this listserve On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 9:19 PM juan wrote:

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 22:55:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell wrote:

...

...

...

26 years is "forever" in technology. 26 years ago, very few people

had even heard of the "Internet".

...

...

Actually in the last 26 years there hasn't been any significant

'technological' change *at all*. The only thing that happened is that microelectronics got relatively cheaper.

...

You forgot that in 1992, typical dialup modems worked at 9600 bps. Now,

most people have access to 25 megabits/sec Internet.

I don't think I've forgotten that. That fact isn't just too relevant to what I'm saying.

TM : "Networks are multiplying beyond any hope of government control,"

Point is, 26 years ago there was no 'technological' reason for that to be true just like there's no reason for that to be true now. Networks were (supposedly...) beyond govcorp control simply because govcorp wasn't devoting many resources to control them, not because they lacked the 'technology' to control them.

Yet another point is who 'owned' those networks. Oh wait, they were and are owned by a few monopoplies chartered by the government, monopolies that are of course just arms of the government.

...

I occasionally see people in discussion areas claim that "the U.S. Government" was responsible for making "The Internet".I shut that talk down,

You do? =) Yet it is a plain historical fact that the US govt and military were heavily involved in the creation of the internet.

...

by pointing out "Do you think that The Internet would have 'worked' if a person, at home, had to connect up to his ISP at with a 300 bps modem? 1200 bps? 2400 bps?"I counter by pointing out that the people REALLY responsible for a usable Internet were those who developed the 9600 bps, 14,400 bps, and 28,800 bps modems. Rockwell, USR (US Robotics), Hayes, Telebit, and a few others. Had that not existed, it would have been hard to make the Internet available to most people.

The main or only reason those audio modems were developed was to use the existing telephone lines. Yet in 1995 ethernet run at 100 megabits...

...

It took a lot of work to learn how to shove 28.8Kbits/sec down a 3000 Hz channel. By and large, those people who did that were the ones who made the Internet of the late 90's possible.

Nah. On the other hand, it's true that all the hardware was produced and is produced by pseudo 'private' government chartered firms. Which is how highly corporatist mixed economies work.

Bottom line : the belief that freedom is 'served' by 'technology' is fully detached from reality.

-- https://about.me/carimachet?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb cari machet about.me/carimachet https://about.me/carimachet?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb

If you have a line, you can still dial each other and negotiate up to 33.8kbps v.34bis, pair your own software compression instead of depending on v.44, and add encryption algos on each end. v.92 56k needed an ISP. Companies like US Robotics and Zoom might still make v.34bis hardware modems... see USR5637. Lots of modems on used market. Full hardware modem with PCM DSP is needed to do elite first pass random phone scanning that analyzes the analog instead of depending on successful second stage negotiation. Plus you get as bonus the WAV recordings of "Hello... Helloooooo?! WTF!!!" ;-) Anyone still have that analysis software? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ITU-T_V-series_recommendations On 12/23/18, jim bell wrote:

You forgot that in 1992, typical dialup modems worked at 9600 bps. Now, most people have access to 25 megabits/sec Internet. I occasionally see people in discussion areas claim that "the U.S. Government" was responsible for making "The Internet".I shut that talk down, by pointing out "Do you think that The Internet would have 'worked' if a person, at home, had to connect up to his ISP at with a 300 bps modem? 1200 bps? 2400 bps?"I counter by pointing out that the people REALLY responsible for a usable Internet were those who developed the 9600 bps, 14,400 bps, and 28,800 bps modems. Rockwell, USR (US Robotics), Hayes, Telebit, and a few others. Had that not existed, it would have been hard to make the Internet available to most people. From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem "V.32 modems operating at 9600 bit/s were expensive and were only starting to enter the market in the early 1990s when V.32bis was standardized. Rockwell International's chip division developed a new driver chip set incorporating the standard and aggressively priced it. Supra, Inc. arranged a short-term exclusivity arrangement with Rockwell, and developed the SupraFAXModem 14400based on it. Introduced in January 1992 at $399 (or less), it was half the price of the slower V.32 modems already on the market. This led to a price war, and by the end of the year V.32 was dead, never having been really established, and V.32bis modems were widely available for $250.V.32bis was so successful that the older high-speed standards had little to recommend them. USR fought back with a 16,800 bit/s version of HST, while AT&T introduced a one-off 19,200 bit/s method they referred to as V.32ter, but neither non-standard modem sold well."

And: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem

V.34/28.8 kbit/s and 33.6 kbit/s

×

×

"Any interest in these proprietary improvements was destroyed during the lengthy introduction of the 28,800 bit/s V.34 standard. While waiting, several companies decided to release hardware and introduced modems they referred to as V.FAST. In order to guarantee compatibility with V.34 modems once the standard was ratified (1994), the manufacturers were forced to use more flexible parts, generally a DSP and microcontroller, as opposed to purpose-designed ASIC modem chips. "The ITU standard V.34 represents the culmination of the joint efforts. It employs the most powerful coding techniques including channel encoding and shape encoding. From the mere four bits per symbol (9.6 kbit/s), the new standards used the functional equivalent of 6 to 10 bits per symbol, plus increasing baud rates from 2,400 to 3,429, to create 14.4, 28.8, and 33.6 kbit/s modems. This rate is near the theoretical Shannon limit. When calculated, the Shannon capacity of a narrowband line is {\displaystyle {\text{bandwidth}}\times \log _{2}(1+P_{u}/P_{n})}, with {\displaystyle P_{u}/P_{n}} the (linear) signal-to-noise ratio. Narrowband phone lines have a bandwidth of 3,000 Hz so using {\displaystyle P_{u}/P_{n}=1000} (SNR = 30 dB), the capacity is approximately 30 kbit/s.[7]

On Dec 22, 2018, at 10:07 PM, juan wrote:

prophetic words. Except the prophesy was 100% wrong =) =(

"'Tis the part of wise man to keep himself today for tomorrow, and not venture all his eggs in one basket. (Cervantes, _Don Quixote_, 1605-)"

And yet, 25 years later, we are closer than ever to crypto-techno-totalitarianism.

See above.