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There is a Christian philosophy of a "holy catholic church" which will answer the remaining questions for Wo/Man regarding religion. Is that desirable? Or should there be no connection to the Divine in this new order?

there's never been any connection to the 'divine' <snip>

You are of course entitled to hold that as true - I take it that you've not read of the adventures of Vincent Ferrer, or in more recent times, Wigglesworth?

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So, I'm trying to dream a world where there is no State. Is it Marxist communism?

As pointed out by good old Bakunin, marxist communism is a form of totalitarian technocracy so the answer is definitely, no.

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Is it shiny, happy people holding hands? Maybe something like appropedia.org.

in a free society there's no political power, and 'economic power' is way more distributed than it is today. Apart from that my crystal ball is cloudy.

So, you can't be sure that a totalitarian state won't re-arise? Why don't you and I duke it out and see whose philosophy is more powerful? How's that for no government? Whet my chops with a little anarchy...

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Because, while you were sleeping, you dreamed up the Fight Club and it's already written.

not sure what point you're making by rerencing fight club?

The point is, I'm believe, is that the world you want is already made and is waiting for YOU.

I still don't know what you mean.

Maybe this email informs you a bit better than before. You see in the old days, rational argument nor government wasn't necessary. Two people just squared off and whoever won must be the best, by definition. I think it could work. Of course, I might be missing something.... but then, so might yourself, so... it's still an even fight. Hmm? Marcos

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So, you can't be sure that a totalitarian state won't re-arise?

That is of course a posibility. So the options are, stick to technocratic theocratic tyranny, or overthrow it. The fact that government can be 're-created' is obviously not a pro-government argument. You're trying to argue against freedom because it allows people to do bad things?

Well, you see, I'm at a little bit of an impasse. What am I going to do in my anarchist paradise when such a threat to freedom arises? Arrest him isn't an option. Hope that he'll see the light of anarchy? Club him? I'm in the darkness here, help me see the light.

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Why don't you and I duke it out and see whose philosophy is more powerful?

we've exchanged messages multiples times and I don't think you ever presented any philosophy...

I'm presenting one now. That without government, one finds out who's philosophy is best by "duking it out".

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Maybe this email informs you a bit better than before. You see in the old days, rational argument nor government wasn't necessary. Two people just squared off and whoever won must be the best, by definition. I think it could work.

Of course, I might be missing something.... but then, so might yourself, so... it's still an even fight. Hmm?

so go ahead, prove that your brand of jew-kristian lunacy is 'true' and that government(organized crime) is morally good. Prove that you have any authority to rule your neighbors.

Why use reason? Isn't reason a type of totalitarian control'? Ask a PhD: you can prove anything with reason, if you're allowed to set the premises as you like. And who gets to say whose premises are the correct ones? Riddle me that, genius. Marxos

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 9:55 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

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So, you can't be sure that a totalitarian state won't re-arise?

That is of course a posibility. So the options are, stick to technocratic theocratic tyranny, or overthrow it. The fact that government can be 're-created' is obviously not a pro-government argument. You're trying to argue against freedom because it allows people to do bad things?

Well, you see, I'm at a little bit of an impasse. What am I going to do in my anarchist paradise when such a threat to freedom arises? Arrest him isn't an option. Hope that he'll see the light of anarchy? Club him? I'm in the darkness here, help me see the light.

People struggle for power because something is going wrong for them. You and your friends either find paths to change that situation with him, or you stop or get rid of him. You can totally arrest him if you like that word, but his people are liable to start a rebellion and overtake your self-appointed leadership, in response, some day, because you ignored his reason for striving for power. When people can freely communicate and act, they discuss things before they come to a head, preventing such embarrassing rebellions. Are you saying you support everyone being controlled by the whims of the powerful?

Hey Dynamite, You write too much here for me to read it all, but it sounds valuable. On Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 9:22 PM \0xDynamite wrote:

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Well, you see, I'm at a little bit of an impasse. What am I going to do in my anarchist paradise when such a threat to freedom arises? Arrest him isn't an option. Hope that he'll see the light of anarchy? Club him? I'm in the darkness here, help me see the light.

People struggle for power because something is going wrong for them. You and your friends either find paths to change that situation with him, or you stop or get rid of him. You can totally arrest him if you like that word, but his people are liable to start a rebellion and overtake your self-appointed leadership, in response, some day, because you ignored his reason for striving for power.

Are you saying you support everyone being controlled by the whims of the powerful?

Not at all. Firstly, speaking on behalf of prophesy (not myself -- which sits in between vertical and horizontal systems of order),

I also am between vertical and horizontal. It is good to share this with you. I am heavily horizontal-biased but I am not exposed to the mainstream horizontal teachings. I form my own views that are compatible. people might strive for power because they wish to create something

that cannot be accomplished without personal -- not collective -- rewards. This probably requires hierarchy, and this requires some system of government if it is to be sustained past one's personal whims. There are legitimate, UNIVERSAL needs for vertical growth to be an ongoing component in the universe to stave off the tendency for entropy.

Nothing is required and everything is possible. I see that vertical behavior is universal but it looks microscopic to me. A horizontal approach can do everything a vertical approach can. People used to thinking in hierarchy only see hierarchical solutions because their brains have so much more habitual skill around thinking of them. Everyone else has some compatible urge to the person striving for power. This person could work together with these other people and meet their needs faster. They would have to think of sharing power with others as a primary strategy, to do this, and so would the other people. But to answer your question more directly, people can be directed, not

by the whims of the powerful, but by their merit. Every anarchist knows that some people have more merit in some dimension that another doesn't. It's a natural by-product of the diversity of human experience.

And similarly we can all learn the skills ourselves that give other people their merit, if we want. Proper government can utilize these facts to build

something from a higher-level, systems perspective that cannot be accomplished from the whim of the mob, to turn your phrase. That is, by VIRTUE, of their higher position, they can see and organize possibilities which cannot otherwise be accomplished (generally).

What you are expressing here on my side is that because we are all used to thinking hierarchically, it seems easier to do so for most right now. The problem with building top-down globally is that your feedback for undiscussed error is violent rebellion. If you build bottom up your feedback is that nobody is helping you, which is a lot safer, man. All of this political theory is not at all meant to take the wind out

of the sails of those who fight for true justice and virtuous liberty, but to show that history has dealt with some of these issues and democracy is/was the only way forward.

You should be aware of things like convergent facilitation, setting norms of conflict mediation instead of rules, sociocracy, consensus: ways of making group decisions and handling things that include everyone's needs but talk about problems that voting can lead to. Nobody is fighting inclusion or communication. It seems to me that "democracy" is an attempt at anarchy that failed due to majority-vote, but politically they seem basically the same thing: _the_people_affected_by_decisions_need_to_be_the_ones_who_make_them_. This is also the prediction of

the prophecy of the Jews. The issue that is making present democracy fail is the co-option by big media

To generalize, the issue is that people are not engaging in forthright political discussion across boundaries: instead we are listening to the biggest nearest opinion, presently big media. Big media could change that by spreading a norm of productive debate. and other private sources and a

failed election model that requires someone to be in office even if they aren't supported by the populace. I've helped deliver an alternative to the "winner-takes-all" model presently used in America and the "electoral college" which takes away some of that representation. It's called Fractional Voting and it allows each voter to vote FOR and AGAINST each candidate or put all of their votes on one. That alone fixes 90% of the present voting problems (two-party emergent dualities, apathy caused by feeling of powerlessness, mis-voting because people couldn't vote for a small candidate for fear of losing to a greater evil, and others).

It sounds like you know what you are doing. Personally it hurts to hear you say "90% of the present voting problems" when the hereditary, most experienced, stewards of our country have their cultures locked in tiny reservations where their people are dying or dead, and there _is_no_public_fair_debate_ on issues like this, while our ignoring of their experience is causing widespread destruction of our politics, health and environment. Peaceful "governance" was solved thousands of years ago in many diverse ways, and most of this information is severely fragmented or lost now. Fractional voting sounds like a wonderful improvement to be greatly supported. I was in Maine when ranked-choice-voting started.

The prophecy calls for the government to fall back to the next lower-level government if there aren't enough POSITIVE votes for any candidate in the highest position of power, and failing that it goes back to the People themselves (until the next election cycle which delivers a qualified, supported candidate).

That sounds natural and inevitable, and I don't think it has to be this sudden or disruptive, but it seems deadly (in an honestly non-threatening way) to assume elections keep happening afterwards. Why are you referencing a Jewish prophecy? It's about a perfect, secular order that came about from

deconstructing the body of the human with perfect Will: how their internal system of choice-management, execution, resource allocation IN THEIR OWN BODY happened, a form of bio-mimicry.

Please message me in private about such off-topic things if you would like to relate around their obviousness (jewish? wtf?). I don't want to be disrupting this list. My number for telegram, signal, and sms is +1 207 518 8256 and if I do not reply it means I have not received the message yet. If you stop and think about it, we all are the benefactors of such

emergent order within our own body -- our cells cooperate with us, even though it is a hierarchy, to some degree.

Anyway, these are notes from the Underground, for the enlightenment of the masses who will strive to deserve it, for it will make a society that is worthy of Creation itself.

WE ARE ALL WORTHY, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN. Those who cannot speak or defend themselves are the most worthy of all, over here, to the death. Sorry for propaganda of obviousness, list.

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 08:21:59PM -0500, \0xDynamite wrote:

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Well, you see, I'm at a little bit of an impasse. What am I going to do in my anarchist paradise when such a threat to freedom arises? Arrest him isn't an option. Hope that he'll see the light of anarchy? Club him? I'm in the darkness here, help me see the light.

People struggle for power because something is going wrong for them. You and your friends either find paths to change that situation with him, or you stop or get rid of him. You can totally arrest him if you like that word, but his people are liable to start a rebellion and overtake your self-appointed leadership, in response, some day, because you ignored his reason for striving for power.

Are you saying you support everyone being controlled by the whims of the powerful?

Not at all. Firstly, speaking on behalf of prophesy (not myself -- which sits in between vertical and horizontal systems of order), people might strive for power because they wish to create something that cannot be accomplished without personal -- not collective -- rewards. This probably requires hierarchy, and this requires some system of government if it is to be sustained past one's personal whims. There are legitimate, UNIVERSAL needs for vertical growth to be an ongoing component in the universe to stave off the tendency for entropy.

Bring on the Star Trek economy :)

But to answer your question more directly, people can be directed, not by the whims of the powerful, but by their merit. Every anarchist

I hear something fundamentally sane in the concepts of merit as in capacity, ability and desire (read 'interest' or preference, etc), and self direction rather than enslavement by 'the powerful'. Folks can of course seek guidance from those who offer their guidance - presumably those who are 'good at guiding' will readily become known for such positive traits (certainly Jordan Peterson rang a bell for many before he went into rehab - hopefully he stays off the antidepressants for good now) - those who've experienced even a brief period of a constructive mentor, know the value of this.

knows that some people have more merit in some dimension that another doesn't. It's a natural by-product of the diversity of human experience. Proper government can utilize these facts to build something from a higher-level, systems perspective that cannot be accomplished from the whim of the mob, to turn your phrase. That is, by VIRTUE, of their higher position, they can see and organize possibilities which cannot otherwise be accomplished (generally).

There is truth in these words, yet also issues - democracy is fundamentally flawed, it seems hard to depose monarchs who fail to uphold virtue and thus fall to despotism, and with the present state of humans, education and the media, all "leaders" are pretty well despised by all, and so where could we even identify an 'actually benevolent' leader?

All of this political theory is not at all meant to take the wind out of the sails of those who fight for true justice and virtuous liberty, but to show that history has dealt with some of these issues and democracy is/was the only way forward.

What do you say about benevolent dictatorship?

This is also the prediction of the prophecy of the Jews. The issue that is making present democracy fail

Sounds like you are suggesting democracy has succeeded somewhere? (Or to be more precise, is there an example of democracy which has not fallen to simple corruption?)

is the co-option by big media and other private sources and a failed election model that requires someone to be in office even if they aren't supported by the populace. I've helped deliver an alternative to the "winner-takes-all" model presently used in America and the "electoral college" which takes away some of that representation. It's called Fractional Voting and it allows each voter to vote FOR and AGAINST each candidate or put all of their votes on one. That alone fixes 90% of the present voting problems (two-party emergent dualities, apathy caused by feeling of powerlessness, mis-voting because people couldn't vote for a small candidate for fear of losing to a greater evil, and others).

The prophecy calls for the government to fall back to the next lower-level government if there aren't enough POSITIVE votes for any candidate in the highest position of power, and failing that it goes back to the People themselves (until the next election cycle which delivers a qualified, supported candidate).

It's about a perfect, secular order that came about from deconstructing the body of the human with perfect Will: how their internal system of choice-management, execution, resource allocation IN THEIR OWN BODY happened, a form of bio-mimicry.

If you stop and think about it, we all are the benefactors of such emergent order within our own body -- our cells cooperate with us, even though it is a hierarchy, to some degree.

Anyway, these are notes from the Underground, for the enlightenment of the masses who will strive to deserve it, for it will make a society that is worthy of Creation itself.

Marcos

To bring heaven to Earth is a big dream - perhaps it is possible? I suspect we may need alternative systems to money, sort of something something star trek economy something ? Present technology is already sufficient to most/all of the basic survival needs of humans today...