Re: [offlist] Re: WTC [WAS] Do you have predictions about 2017?
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 12:14 AM, Razer <g2s@riseup.net> wrote:
All that stuff was subject to collapse and other terminal damage by the shock wave of those 255,000 lb planes that weigh more 3-48 foot tractor
As people said similarly earlier, if you're asking re wtc7, not sure if 1 and 2 would have been enough to seriously kick at 7 outside the bathtub when 1 and 2 were anchored in 'bedrock', only seismographs would show that, and even then perhaps only vertically, as opposed to laterally. Though yes, absorptive torquing of 1 and 2 would definitely contributed to doing them both in, like the flexing of parallel pixie sticks. Cryptome was prompted to respond on architecture issues but hasn't yet. Caveat architecture isn't necessarily engineering. And try the colorimetry and max heat boiling point vs whatever was pouring out the windows. Unfortunately the materials overlap there. As before, you decide, more investigation needed before any can be said. Were there to be conspiracy, it's the 'explosions' that need more detailing. And do you really think 'flower pots' of thermite could be delivered to 8x'th floors unnoticed, and who were the tenants? Though yes, 'elevator maintenance' could cut the core. And basements are free conjecture. One might also look into the four 'cleanup' contractors background. And to any (unfortunately top secret) BATF / OST or demo types operating in the area. I've no opinion. Any top [secret] level strategic foreknowledge would be more damning than situ tactical ops, though not unrelated. So many fun questions to benefit both sides :) That is the point of answering the science. And if it's not answered, don't give up.
On 01/18/2017 10:45 PM, grarpamp wrote:
All that stuff was subject to collapse and other terminal damage by the shock wave of those 255,000 lb planes that weigh more 3-48 foot tractor As people said similarly earlier, if you're asking re wtc7, not sure if 1 and 2 would have been enough to seriously kick at 7 outside the bathtub when 1 and 2 were anchored in 'bedrock', only seismographs would show that, and even
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 12:14 AM, Razer <g2s@riseup.net> wrote: then perhaps only vertically, as opposed to laterally. Though yes, absorptive torquing of 1 and 2 would definitely contributed to doing them both in, like the flexing of parallel pixie sticks. Cryptome was prompted to respond on architecture issues but hasn't yet. Caveat architecture isn't necessarily engineering.
And try the colorimetry and max heat boiling point vs whatever was pouring out the windows. Unfortunately the materials overlap there. As before, you decide, more investigation needed before any can be said. Were there to be conspiracy, it's the 'explosions' that need more detailing. And do you really think 'flower pots' of thermite could be delivered to 8x'th floors unnoticed, and who were the tenants? Though yes, 'elevator maintenance' could cut the core. And basements are free conjecture.
One might also look into the four 'cleanup' contractors background. And to any (unfortunately top secret) BATF / OST or demo types operating in the area. I've no opinion. Any top [secret] level strategic foreknowledge would be more damning than situ tactical ops, though not unrelated.
So many fun questions to benefit both sides :) That is the point of answering the science. And if it's not answered, don't give up.
Simply, and a statement of why I'm as disgusted by the ongoing nonsense as I am about that other trash topic who killed JFK Focusing on the How and Who instead of Why, IS giving up. Giving in to terrorism. But it's better that way. It diverts a mass of OCD nutjobs who would otherwise be in the way of every attempt at Social Justice for anyone but them(white middle-class)selves. The ranks of 911 truthers is just as white and affluent as the Republican Party. There's a reason for that. Because 'them(white middle-class)selves' ARE the reason (or should I say 'them(white middle-class)selves' way of life is...) for terror attacks on the US. They ENABLE terrorism... No matter who actualizes it. If the CIA was committing, or attempting to set-up terrorist acts in a vacuum where the victims of extractive resources wars and it BLOWBACK didn't exist. Without a mass of angry disaffected Muslims willing to die because they feel they had nothing to live for, War on the Middle East JUST WOULD NOT be a viable plan for the fallout to be used social control in the 'terrorized' country, would it? But I HONESTLY don't expect legitimate answers from people who make their living off the end product of that resource extraction terrorism... People who make their money from the computer industry. Buy a bigger touch screen Dee-Vice. Kill more Congolese. Ever seen what a lithium mining op in China looks like? Do you give a fuck? When the planes fly into 'Merica's buildings it does... and the rationalizations, and the denials, and the SHEEP start bleating saying the have the 'truth'. Because it's impossible for them to admit their culpability. Rr
Rather amazed AP hasn't yet risen (publicly) to affect things. After all, we have bounties to murder the murderers (via the state)... http://www.whokilledseth.com/ And some would say there are a lot of culpable murder ordering murderers at the top to be murdered. Would not surprise to see should wanton disparity and difference and vacuuming resources, natural and human, continue increasing. When things are not distributed evenly, such things become targets.
From: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
Rather amazed AP hasn't yet risen (publicly) to affect things. No disagreement from me on that! When I proposed AP almost 22 years ago, https://cryptome.org/ap.htm, I believed that the possibilities and advantages of the system would be immediately debated and decided upon. A lot of debate did indeed occur, but even today the average person remains unaware that there is a solution to militaries and war, to government and tyranny. How long until freedom breaks out and lives? Most of the initial objection to AP was either dishonest or uninformed. Perhaps many people could not imagine that a complex system of software could exist that would maintain anonymity, but two decades of software development (TOR, Bitcoin, Silk Road and its successors, Ethereum, and Augur) should prove to everyone that we are up to the task. I claimed that AP would eliminate both war an militaries. People have claimed they want to end both for centuries. Well, finally they actually get the promise of such an outcome, and a plausible mechanism to do so, and they fail or refuse to address the issue. Maybe they don't really want peace: They merely want the continuation of the status quo. They want their kind of people in control. And when they get upset, it is only because they are losing control. Jim Bell
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/20/2017 03:04 PM, jim bell wrote:
*From:* grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
Rather amazed AP hasn't yet risen (publicly) to affect things.
No disagreement from me on that! When I proposed AP almost 22 years ago, https://cryptome.org/ap.htm, I believed that the possibilities and advantages of the system would be immediately debated and decided upon. A lot of debate did indeed occur, but even today the average person remains unaware that there is a solution to militaries and war, to government and tyranny. How long until freedom breaks out and lives?
It seems to me that AP has not been implemented due to one deficit: We have no means of implementing AP with adequate safeguards to protect the operators and participants from the combined resources of military and law enforcement agencies from numerous jurisdictions worldwide. AP may be "perfectly legal" for every participant except the prize winners, but in the view of a targeted ruling class and its servants, it is perfectly legal to kill the operators on discovery as long as they do not get caught doing so. If they do get caught, they can simply change the laws. Their propaganda capabilities would assure broad public approval of any such changes. AP is a novel means of waging class warfare, but if and when it gets implemented the "enemies of the people" will not surrender or sit quietly waiting to die, constrained by rule of law from striking back with every means available to them. As these means include already established surveillance and manipulation capabilities spanning the networks AP communications must hide in to be successful, early implementations of AP would trigger an arms race. Maybe the AP side can win, but the lessons learned along the way to that victory would be paid for in the blood of failed operators. So far no one has shown up with the necessary technical capabilities and confidence to take the risk and pay the price. A fully distributed network protocol for AP, with no single or higher-value points of failure, clever enough to offer a credible (if false) promise of security to early adopters, might someday get off the ground. But given that the global industrial economy will most likely collapse first and take most of today's ruling class down with it, I think it makes more sense to wait for the laws of physics to do the job. The more hard-headed anarchistic technologists we have when that happens, the sooner a world (more) worth living in can replace the one we have. Since trying to make AP work in today's real would motivate today's ruling class to thin that particular herd, I would not encourage them to implement AP... just yet. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYgpVtAAoJEECU6c5Xzmuqk28IAMFMvy0gue8nrBCxFmsuGVQv wNRoowrToMg+oA25yYuXriw0ZJ9SHba6EkkbekSKVBWQ2Be9Sq4hRi2bus/22dl4 4piYfxI/Paps2OyuvbhkPWc2HhEpIMUzzNSZONpCE6mwj8Py1LIXJHjhurnnJIoV WpTCkmzB0La31EbjBubaUB8VF6/+I03+cNOMMN4kI4360+AQjoy1ydgu7pa2lUto A2yUttyYEm8v3x1Q3c9QdjlNnO8hZ4CmhWe5yr2QX7sQ+MMiyI1EnG2oiMTjz89f GH5D5AILVz7ApFTbkU/GgikifOb4uR45Y2iJD+0zWOmVq6pD4vNgzw3hrLCdiCU= =B5lY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 20:04:20 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
Rather amazed AP hasn't yet risen (publicly) to affect things.
No disagreement from me on that! When I proposed AP almost 22 years ago, https://cryptome.org/ap.htm, I believed that the possibilities and advantages of the system would be immediately debated and decided upon. A lot of debate did indeed occur, but even today the average person remains unaware that there is a solution to militaries and war, to government and tyranny. How long until freedom breaks out and lives? Most of the initial objection to AP was either dishonest or uninformed. Perhaps many people could not imagine that a complex system of software could exist that would maintain anonymity, but two decades of software development (TOR, Bitcoin,
tor and bitcoin are obviously not the proper tools to use against the state. Especially tor, the pentagon's cyberweapon. You might have more luck with some sort of 'hight latency' mixing network and a crpytocurrency with built in 'anonimity' (that is NOT bitcoin)
Silk Road
silk road clearly illustrates the shortcomings of using garbage like tor. Jusk ask Ulbricht.
and its successors, Ethereum, and Augur) should prove to everyone that we are up to the task. I claimed that AP would eliminate both war an militaries. People have claimed they want to end both for centuries. Well, finally they actually get the promise of such an outcome, and a plausible mechanism to do so, and they fail or refuse to address the issue. Maybe they don't really want peace: They merely want the continuation of the status quo.
Or perhaps your analysis is simplistic AP advertising, not a serious look into the nature of state rule. AP may be a means for a libertarian defense system, but AP by itself isn't necesarily libertarian
They want their kind of people in control. And when they get upset, it is only because they are losing control. Jim Bell
From: juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
Rather amazed AP hasn't yet risen (publicly) to affect things.
No disagreement from me on that! When I proposed AP almost 22 years ago, https://cryptome.org/ap.htm, I believed that the possibilities and advantages of the system would be immediately debated and decided upon. A lot of debate did indeed occur, but even today the average person remains unaware that there is a solution to militaries and war, to government and tyranny. How long until freedom breaks out and lives? Most of the initial objection to AP was either dishonest or uninformed. Perhaps many people could not imagine that a complex system of software could exist that would maintain anonymity, but two decades of software development (TOR, Bitcoin,
tor and bitcoin are obviously not the proper tools to use against the state. Especially tor, the pentagon's cyberweapon. I read, months ago, that one of the military's uses for TOR is to control aerial drones from around the world. Presumably, the reason for using TOR is to prevent systems in the link from identifying the traffic as "controlling an aerial drone" and cutting it off.
That use explains why they want the ability to have a low-latency link. What it DOESN'T explain is why that low-latency link isn't merely one way to use the system: Why can't the packets themselves decide how they are to be routed? Why can't they have an arbitrarily-large number of hops, of course at the expense of higher latency. Why can't hops fork? Why isn't dummy traffic inserted? All explained by the military's need to make TOR good, but not TOO GOOD! > You might have more luck with some sort of 'hight latency' > mixing network and a crpytocurrency with built in > 'anonimity' (that is NOT bitcoin) Zerocoin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerocoin
Silk Road
silk road clearly illustrates the shortcomings of using garbage > like tor. Jusk ask Ulbricht.
Quite true. Nevertheless, SR did have the salutory effect of showing how such a secret system could operate, for months and even years, despite flawed tools. It was a data-point. People will continue to construct and operate SR-2's, SR-3's, etc, hopefully with increasing levels of success. They will learn.
and its successors, Ethereum, and Augur) should prove to everyone that we are up to the task. I claimed that AP would eliminate both war an militaries. People have claimed they want to end both for centuries. Well, finally they actually get the promise of such an outcome, and a plausible mechanism to do so, and they fail or refuse to address the issue. Maybe they don't really want peace: They merely want the continuation of the status quo.
Or perhaps your analysis is simplistic AP advertising, not a serious look into the nature of state rule. Should I have to be doing all the work, here? I would argue that if a person proposes a plausible idea to eliminate war and militaries (what everyone has always said would be an excellent idea) it thereby becomes a obligation of the (interested) public to either credit or discredit it.
AP may be a means for a libertarian defense system, but AP by itself isn't necesarily libertarian A gun isn't necessarily libertarian, either: It can be used to shoot attacking, guilty people, or shoot innocent people. That's not an argument to make ownership of guns impossible.
Jim Bell
Mechanical properties of structural steels at elevated temperatures and after cooling down (2006) http://www.civil.canterbury.ac.nz/sif/documents/paper19.pdf Fire safety design of building structures has received greater attention in recent times due to continuing losses of properties and lives in fires. However, the structural behaviour of thin-walled cold-formed steel columns under fire conditions is not well understood despite the increasing use of light gauge steels in building construction. Cold-formed steel columns are often subject to local buckling effects. Therefore a series of laboratory tests of lipped and unlipped channel columns made of varying steel thicknesses and grades was undertaken at uniform elevated temperatures up to 700°C under steady state conditions. Finite element models of the tested columns were also developed, and their elastic buckling and nonlinear analysis results were compared with test results at elevated temperatures. Effects of the degradation of mechanical properties of steel with temperature were included in the finite element analyses. The use of accurately measured yield stress, elasticity modulus and stress-strain curves at elevated temperatures provided a good comparison of the ultimate loads and load-deflection curves from tests and finite element analyses. The commonly used effective width design rules and the direct strength method at ambient temperature were then used to predict the ultimate loads at elevated temperatures by using the reduced mechanical properties. By comparing these predicted ultimate loads with those from tests and finite element analyses, the accuracy http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/search?q=steel+columns http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/search?q=steel+trusses
On 01/21/2017 11:57 PM, grarpamp wrote:
Mechanical properties of structural steels at elevated temperatures and after cooling down (2006) http://www.civil.canterbury.ac.nz/sif/documents/paper19.pdf
Fire safety design of building structures has received greater attention in recent times due to continuing losses of properties and lives in fires.
Oddly that 'greater attention' doesn't seem to have been paid in the UAE where insurance fires in skyscrapers are how the Afghan elite who invested in their construction with US pallets of cash (KabulBank etc) launder their money. http://auntieimperial.blogspot.com/2010/02/all-this-money-magically-appears-... No building is indestructible when there's a concerted attempt to destroy . Get over it and admit your bloated 5 planet lifestyle is why the WTC collapsed. Rr
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 20:21:14 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
tor and bitcoin are obviously not the proper tools to use against the state. Especially tor, the pentagon's cyberweapon.
I read, months ago, that one of the military's uses for TOR is to control aerial drones from around the world. Presumably, the reason for using TOR is to prevent systems in the link from identifying the traffic as "controlling an aerial drone" and cutting it off.
That's funny. That's something I was about to mention in the tor-talk mailing list a couple of times, but somehow didn't. I should have, before the pentagon scumbags (dingledine, syverson and their psycho-lapdogs) banned me. It sounds plausible, although I'm not sure if it's really true. No doubt murdering children for the benefit of the US empire is a core value of the tor project, but I would guess that drone control requires a more reliable link (but maybe not). http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/ramstein-base-in-germany-a-key-c... Anyway, the official explanation is plausible too. The alleged reason why the pentagon wants a 'low latency' network is that the typical web 'surfer' can't tolerate any delays and won't use tor if it's slow. So their shitty 'low latency' network is both easy to attack by its owners (the pentagon), and 'popular'. Win win.
That use explains why they want the ability to have a low-latency link. What it DOESN'T explain is why that low-latency link isn't merely one way to use the system: Why can't the packets themselves decide how they are to be routed? Why can't they have an arbitrarily-large number of hops,
You can have more (or less) than three hops - it's just a matter of configuration. But more hops inside the network solve nothing if the 'attacker' can watch packets entering and leaving the network. Something the pentagon can do.
of course at the expense of higher latency. Why can't hops fork? Why isn't dummy traffic inserted? All explained by the military's need to make TOR good, but not TOO GOOD!
Yes. Here's another datapoint "zero-knowledge inc vs cryptoanarchy" https://cryptome.org/zks-v-tcm.htm Looks like the gov't friendly scammers behind "zero knowledge" are the same scammers who now work for the pentagon, like ian goldberg for instance. It's also funny to see how austin hill uses the same lame excuses that the tor clowns use today. " we need to make sure that we get millions of people on the system," "we need every AOL user, ICQ user, Disney loving parent and child" - disney, LOL.
> You might have more luck with some sort of 'hight latency' > mixing network and a crpytocurrency with built in > 'anonimity' (that is NOT bitcoin)
Zerocoin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerocoin
Or something based on cryptonote. https://cryptonote.org/
Silk Road
silk road clearly illustrates the shortcomings of using garbage > like tor. Jusk ask Ulbricht.
Quite true. Nevertheless, SR did have the salutory effect of showing how such a secret system could operate, for months and even years, despite flawed tools. It was a data-point. People will continue to construct and operate SR-2's, SR-3's, etc, hopefully with increasing levels of success. They will learn.
I guess time will tell and we'll see how the arms race evolves.
Or perhaps your analysis is simplistic AP advertising, not a serious look into the nature of state rule.
Should I have to be doing all the work, here?
No, certainly not. Indeed it's not something a single person can do because the problem is a cultural problem.
I would argue that if a person proposes a plausible idea to eliminate war and militaries (what everyone has always said would be an excellent idea) it thereby becomes a obligation of the (interested) public to either credit or discredit it.
I agree. On the other hand I'd guess that many of the people who say they want to eliminate war think that the way to do so is to have a world state (either fascist american or commie flavor). Or 'good' politicians. Or any other statist nonsense. So AP won't appeal too much to them...
AP may be a means for a libertarian defense system, but AP by itself isn't necesarily libertarian
A gun isn't necessarily libertarian, either: It can be used to shoot attacking, guilty people, or shoot innocent people.
Yep. That would be my point =P
That's not an argument to make ownership of guns impossible.
Jim Bell
On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:21 PM, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
You might have more luck with some sort of 'hight latency' mixing network and a crpytocurrency with built in 'anonimity' (that is NOT bitcoin)
Zerocoin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerocoin
There's now a handful of 'more anonymous than bitcoin' currencies out there. Some of them are linked to from within page collections such as... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerocoin http://zerocoin.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zcash http://zerocash-project.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryptoNote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency http://zcoin.finance/language/en/zcoin-and-zcash/
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 01:45:17 -0500 grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 12:14 AM, Razer <g2s@riseup.net> wrote:
All that stuff was subject to collapse and other terminal damage by the shock wave of those 255,000 lb planes that weigh more 3-48 foot tractor
As people said similarly earlier, if you're asking re wtc7,
Grarpamp, did you get 'offlist' propaganda from the official pentagon bot, aka rayzer? He must be working overtime to get a bonus or something. Yep, 'anarcho' 'proletarian' rayzer always ready to parrot the US government party line. WTC brought down by an invisible mud tsunami, caused by box cutters. the rayzer further commented :
The ranks of 911 truthers is just as white
In other words, rayzer is a racist. And even more funny, he talks about 'whites' as if he was a native of africa, when in reality he's a cookie-cut jew-kristian\ ameroican fascist.
participants (5)
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grarpamp -
jim bell -
juan -
Razer -
Steve Kinney