Reposted from http://morelibertynow.com/nypd-strike/ NYPD STRIKE SUGGESTS IT’S TIME FOR ASSASSINATION MARKETS IF WE WON'T ORGANIZE FOR NONVIOLENCE, WE'LL HAVE TO ORGANIZE FOR VIOLENCE We should use political violence (preemptive and generalized violence against a class of likely aggressors) against police. That’s what some libertarians have been saying for years. I continue to reject this idea but I have to give these folks their due – it worked in New York City. A gunman’s assassination of two NYC police officers while they sat in their cruiser on December 20 has led to chaos in the NYC government. Almost immediately: citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent; summonses for low-level offenses dropped by 94 percent; parking violations were down by 92 percent; drug arrests by the NY Police Department (NYPD) Organized Crime Control Bureau plummeted 84 percent; cops received orders to only work in pairs and not even take breaks alone; police union officials told fellow officers to not make arrests “unless absolutely necessary” – thus calling into question the legitimacy of their normal arresting habits – and claimed they were on wartime footing; cops from across the country traveled to NYC to attend the funeral, evidence of the wide psychological impact of the assassinations; infighting between the NYPD and the NYC mayor escalated, damaging the effectiveness of the NYC government. THE DROP IN ARRESTS The overall drop in arrests, at 66 percent, in the week following the assassinations is nothing short of jaw-dropping. How is it that the NYPD could effectively go on strike and yet the city is not tearing itself apart? One reason may be that the general public is also horrified by the violence and people are behaving themselves better out of deference to the cops. Another is that people are on better behavior because they are afraid of overreaction on the part of paranoid police. Every cop out there may be ready to issue beatings and bullets for even the lowliest of infractions (as if they weren’t already). But I think the reality is actually that most of these arrests are for penny-ante, mostly-victimless crimes. They’re about making NYC a more pleasant place to live and visit for tourists and those who are well-off. The crimes people were being cited and caged for represent no real threat to the peace. Those minor infractions are also about filling the coffers of the NYC government revenue machine through fines and fees. INTRA-GOVERNMENTAL STRIFE John Robb’s first rule of open source warfare is to break networks. This lone gunman inadvertently did that by leading the NYPD and the mayor into greater confrontation, so much so that the cops turned their backs en masse on their boss, the mayor, in a public gathering that made headlines. What’s more, the gunman did this without any conscious attempt to maximize such damage and with the meager investment of a pistol, ammunition and transportation to NYC. Who knows how much the executions and their aftermath have cost the city of New York and police across the nation, but the return on investment (ROI) for this execution must be high. If the gunman spent $2,000 to carry this attack out, and the cost in financial outlays, loss of government revenue (due to reduced ticketing), police peace of mind and other intangibles is $20 million, that’s a 10,000 percent ROI. A LIBERTARIAN ANALYSIS In the short term, libertarians may feel the urge to cheer the gunman. But you shouldn’t. Executing members of a group for the perceived crimes of the whole, or of certain members of the group, is rank collectivism. It stinks. Libertarianism is individualism. Collectivism is the opposite of our philosophy. This kind of collectivist anti-cop vigilantism could easily get out of hand. Careless, suicidal vigilantes could shoot innocent bystanders. Paranoid cops could overreact even more than they already do and kill even more people than they already do. Then what? Civil war on the streets? Nobody wants that. DANGEROUS PRECEDENT FOR PUBLIC ORDER Even in a libertarian society, stateless or not, you need law and order. People need to know that those who break the rules will be stopped and made to pay for their destructive actions. Without that, society doesn’t work. The lawless cause more disturbances and the lawful look for other solutions or other places to go. Random murders and police going on strike or engaging in work slowdowns is a recipe for societal breakdown. Libertarians are wise to condemn both equally, while demanding the continued reduction in harassment of people accused of committing victimless crimes. WHAT ABOUT IN A STATELESS SOCIETY? In a stateless libertarian society, there are multiple police, or private defense, agencies in operation in a city the size of New York. If an employee of one agency is assassinated, it’s likely that employees of all of the agencies would engage in acts of solidarity with the fallen employee. But it’s unlikely that all of the agencies would go on strike, at least not all at the same time. Unlike the NYPD, which is centrally controlled by its commissioner and the mayor above him, private defense agencies are each independent and free from coercive outside control. Different agencies would likely make different decisions on the question of whether to strike or not. It’s possible that all of the individual employees of all of these agencies would be members of the same union, or a tight group of unions. That union could go on strike and force a work stoppage or slowdown similar to what is taking place in NYC. But, in a stateless society, the private defense agencies could just as easily fire or furlough their current employees and hire new ones who recognized the need to keep working, or just needed the work. These new ones could be experienced security agents from out of town or recently-retired former employees. The NYPD doesn’t enjoy that kind of flexibility. It is owned and controlled by the local government, the same entity that promulgates the laws that make it difficult, if not impossible to fire government employees for striking. Even without these troublesome laws, politicians dare not act definitively against a striking police union because the cops, their friends, family and supporters will vote against them in an upcoming election. Private defense agencies don’t have that concern, though they would have to worry about losing customers who disapproved of their mass firing or furloughing of their employees. It’s also likely that there would not be just one, massive police union, or tightly-coordinated group of unions. With multiple private defense agencies, the need for a unified negotiating position would likely be reduced. The bottom line is that a legal police monopoly – the NYPD – makes the residents of NYC more vulnerable to crime. This one organization can go on strike, or a slowdown, and it threatens the security of the entire city because there is no competition to pick up the slack – that competition is legally banned. In a stateless society, however, if one private defense agency shuts down, there is a strong incentive for the others to ramp up their operations, in order to collect the customers of the agency that shut down. This analysis doesn’t even take into account the fact that competitive private defense agencies will not enjoy de facto immunity from accountability for their crimes. Without that special privilege, bad cops will be held accountable for their actions. Societal rage against bad cops will be assuaged by removing this special protection and the motivation for collectivist vigilantism against cops will be removed. LESSONS FOR LIBERTARIANS The aftermath of the assassinations is a clear sign that assassination is an effective tool, at least in the short term, in the fight to control police abuse. Police activity is down, cops are scared and the cops and mayor are at war. I take no pleasure in saying that because it appears to validate the strategy of fellow libertarian activist Christopher Cantwell – not one of my favorite people. Given that cops across the country have shown themselves, time and time again, to be unaccountable killers, it makes no sense to take this kind of abuse lying down. It’s only reasonable to take steps to protect oneself from police abuse and fraud. I choose the nonviolent route because I am certain that the violent one will backfire. Already, family and friends of cops are organizing in support of police officers across the country. Violence is a polarizing tactic that you don’t come back from. But I believe in organization. If folks are going to advocate for political violence against police, then at least get the damned thing organized so it has a chance of success. Assassination Politics is essential reading in this area. In fact, an assassination marketplace already exists behind Tor on the Darknet. So, if people like Cantwell are serious about killing cops, why don’t they actively promote assassination marketplaces? Why don’t they create more marketplaces, add more targets and run marketing campaigns for them? Why the gratuitous chatter and the lack of sustained efforts toward their stated goal? It’s likely that at least a small amount of targeted violence will be required to take down governments, so that a more liberty-centric order can supplant them. If we accept that, as distasteful as it is, then assassination marketplaces become attractive. Unlike a traditional war, assassination marketplaces don’t require that you kill tens of thousands of cops, politicians and soldiers. In order for assassination marketplaces to end the age of the state, only a few targeted individuals need be killed. For the rest, active and well-funded threats may be sufficient to intimidate aggressors into remaining peaceful while an organized resistance takes voluntary civil institutions to the next level. This idea of keeping cops in check by placing bounties on their heads is nothing new. Pablo Escobar used it in Medellín to great effect. The IRA used it in Ireland. States are masters at this tactic, both against accused criminals and against insurgencies, such as Alvaro Uribe’s bounties on FARC members in Colombia in the last decade. It works. If the libertarian communities can ever get our collective acts together, someday we may be negotiating with police unions. We will want them to stop enforcing victimless crimes and to cooperate with the liberalization of their sector by accepting competition – the end to their monopoly. When negotiating with armed and dangerous paramilitary forces, it’s wise to operate from a position of strength. Assassination markets are one vector for gaining that kind of negotiating position. We would be wise to explore our options in that area. Violence is distasteful. But death and ignominious caging are worse. Libertarians have to be realistic. We can never secure our desired libertarian future from a position of weakness and disorganization. If we’re unable or unwilling to organize for nonviolent action, then we will have to organize for violent action. The alternative to either of these options, a wait-and-see, hemming-hawing, pacifistic apathy, is even more repugnant than violence. A PERSONAL NOTE It’s tasteless to rejoice in the death of other people, no matter the evil of their actions while alive. Every human life is precious, even those spent in misguided pursuits like being a US Marshal, a congressperson, bureaucrat or a NYC cop because any of those lives can be redeemed at any moment and put to great use. See, for example, retired Philadelphia police captain Ray Lewis. I am sympathetic to the families of the assassinated officers. No one wants to lose a loved one like that. No one wants to die like that, without even a chance to defend themselves. But such feelings must never get in the way of speaking the truth.
On 05/04/2015 09:32 PM, Seth wrote:
A PERSONAL NOTE It’s tasteless to rejoice in the death of other people
No... It's sociopathic. I'm going to put my neck on the block here and state quite plainly that Libertarianism is a trojan horse for Feudal Fascism if carried out in an American society whose Community and Family structures are so dysfunctional, so (I'm gonna spell it out) Fucked Up Beyond ALL Recognition, they're barely recognizable as those by most of the rest of the world’s population. (See: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/11/but-what-is-community.html) Exhibit A: a copy of Ron Paul's political newsletter post-Rodney King riots in 1992 wherein he discusses how to kill someone and get away with it. The "Someone" he's referring to are Black "animals", and states he taught his family (incl his son Senator Rand Paul, running for prez) to do so. because “the animals are coming." Synopsis/links: http://auntieimperial.tumblr.com/post/118031484489 Direct: http://pando.com/2015/05/01/baltimore-the-walking-dead/ http://pando.com/2015/05/02/for-the-record-heres-the-ron-paul-newsletter-on-...
On Tue, 05 May 2015 11:07:44 -0700
Razer
On 05/04/2015 09:32 PM, Seth wrote:
A PERSONAL NOTE It’s tasteless to rejoice in the death of other people
No... It's sociopathic.
I'm going to put my neck on the block here and state quite plainly that Libertarianism is a trojan horse for Feudal Fascism if carried out in an American society
That seems to suggest that feudal fascism is not the current american system...? =P
Exhibit A: a copy of Ron Paul's political newsletter post-Rodney King riots in 1992 wherein he discusses how to kill someone and get away with it. The "Someone" he's referring to are Black "animals", and states he taught his family (incl his son Senator Rand Paul, running for prez) to do so. because
“the animals are coming."
a fair amount of alleged libertarians are libertarianism's worst enemy...
Synopsis/links: http://auntieimperial.tumblr.com/post/118031484489
Direct: http://pando.com/2015/05/01/baltimore-the-walking-dead/
http://pando.com/2015/05/02/for-the-record-heres-the-ron-paul-newsletter-on-...
On Tue, 5 May 2015 17:15:48 -0400
Robert Hettinga
On May 5, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Juan
wrote: a fair amount of alleged libertarians are libertarianism's worst enemy…
“A libertarian is someone who agrees with *me*.” — J. Neil Schulman, “Alongside Night”
that guy schulman speaks directly with god!!! no way he could be wrong
Cheers, RAH
Dnia wtorek, 5 maja 2015 19:19:38 Juan pisze:
On Tue, 5 May 2015 17:55:52 -0400
Robert Hettinga
wrote: On May 5, 2015, at 5:31 PM, Juan
wrote: that guy schulman speaks directly with god!!! no way he could be wrong
Atheist.
:-)
How can you be an atheist now that Neil Schulman has proven god's existence? =)
Oblig. http://xkcd.com/1505/ -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
Anselm or another really smart Arab philosopher argued that God is the only atheist and can be the only one. Well, these thinkers invented the concept of zero, which subsumes, whatever, that fancy word means, fits the notion of singular atheist. Along came Sartre and a gang of existentialist bozos who got aroused by the notion of nothingness. So happens most of them were atheists except in foxholes, then Mommy was what they cried. There you have it, God is a single Mom, pissed at having no deadbeat shitheads to whang with a skillet for inseminating little whiney turds inside Her Vatican, most sporting red skullcaps like penile protubers, pretending celibacy, that is, Grateful Deadhead Daddies ravaging the mommies of spoiled crybaby atheists who want to be their own daddies shacked up inside the panties of Big Bad Mom. Sartre, a mommy's boy pure existencely, called this the desire to be god, this spoiled brat atheism, this less than zero wankism, this lust to be St Peter, sorry for the penility, this Me, Me, Me, sucking on Mommy's mammary, yearning to assassinate Daddies for taking all mom's milk themselves. Jim Bell, get off that tit. At 04:32 AM 5/6/2015, you wrote:
Dnia wtorek, 5 maja 2015 19:19:38 Juan pisze:
On Tue, 5 May 2015 17:55:52 -0400
Robert Hettinga
wrote: On May 5, 2015, at 5:31 PM, Juan
wrote: that guy schulman speaks directly with god!!! no way he could be wrong
Atheist.
:-)
How can you be an atheist now that Neil Schulman has proven god's existence? =)
Oblig. http://xkcd.com/1505/
-- Pozdrawiam, MichaŠ"rysiek" Woźniak
Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On May 6, 2015, at 6:46 AM, John Young
wrote a splendid bit of Younglish: Anselm or another really smart Arab philosopher […]
Al-right, Robert, the white thinking guy's burden. Al-beit Al-coholic. At 08:17 AM 5/6/2015, you wrote:
On May 6, 2015, at 6:46 AM, John Young
wrote a splendid bit of Younglish: Anselm or another really smart Arab philosopher [ ]
<further crypto-leftist mid-twentieth-century libtard pseudo-intellectual jiggery-pokery elided >
ObPedantry: Anselm was not an Arab, his reductive "proof of god" as perfect" parlor trick notwithstanding.
There were *no* Arab philosophers, much less "really smart" ones.
Avicenna, for instance, was Persian, and like most Arab-conquered middle eastern types by then, regurgitated earlier Greek text using Indian astronomy math, including the zero, finance, (the foreign exchange contract, the letter of credit, and the demand-deposit check, say), and science. A bare fraction of which was actually saved by rampaging Islamic Arab rapine, physical, intellectual, and otherwise. There were *copies*, even better ones, of the contents of the Library at Alexandria, all over the ancient middle east, and even after it was burned by both Ceasar and a Bishop or two, it was the Muslims who actually burned its entire contents. And all the other libraries besides.
Averroes, another leading Arab philosophical light, was a Spaniard. And an Aristotelian. So no new philosophy there, either.
All of Arab contributions to civilization were derivative. The lateen sail was Roman (Lateen, geddit?), for instance. Damascus steel was Indian wootz steel.
The Arabs' principal accomplishment, if you can call it that, was destroying the ancient world wherever they went, and replacing it with abject barbarism for most of a thousand years. Their piracy in the Mediterranean killed trade between east and west, (and north and south) for the entirety of their command of it and was the proximal cause of the Dark Ages in the West.
Their contribution to philosophy, if one could call it that, was to declare, after they got sick of listening to Persians and Egyptians prattle badly-regurgitated Greek for a century or so, that *nothing* happens without gods will, which obviated the need for cause and effect at all. You struck two stones together, and god *decided* that there would be a spark, you see. Which is how the world got blessed with Sharia law and all the rest of Islams barbaric world view.
As long as there can be nothing unless God wills it, there can be no Islamic science. At least the Orthodox and the Catholics had to somehow incorporate cause and effect into their view of the world, or there would not be any sin. Seeding their own intellectual demise, at least, at the hands of the scientific method later on.
In the west, philosophy was made the handmaiden of theology for more than fifteen hundred years. For a thousand of those years, philosophy in Islam was a shit-house slave.
Philosophy didnt actually occur in the west until Newton figured out how to use mathematics to deal with infinity in order to calculate the motion of objects. Discovered *again*, apparently. Palimpsests have been recovered from Orthodox codices made of scraped-over scrolls containing Archimedes (who else? :-)), dealing in infinitesimals, at least, if not the actual epsilons and deltas which finally nailed calculus to mathematical terra-firma by Bolzano in 1817.
After Newton, a veritable festival of philosophical navel-gazing began in the West after, with the possible exception of the Stoics and Cynics, almost two thousand years. All to collapse again after Godel proved he was his own grandpa. Or, at least, he *could*, Groucho, belong to a club that would have him as a member.
And, of course, Existentialism, like Freudianism, is merely literature. Okay. Freudianism is really *bad* literature, with Freud conflating Oedipus with Hamlet. Besides, being, you know, proven to be unfalsifiable pseudoscience, in the same breath that Karl Popper took it out with Marxism in the 1950s. Existentialism isnt even that. Its another example of Eric Raymonds "Gramscian Damage: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=260.
The bush weed here on Anguillas okay, but its clearly not as good as Johns stash. :-)
Cheers, RAH
Yo, Dnia środa, 6 maja 2015 08:17:15 Robert Hettinga pisze:
(some not-that-bad analysis ellided)
All of Arab “contributions” to “civilization” were derivative. The lateen sail was Roman (“Lateen”, geddit?), for instance. Damascus steel was Indian wootz steel.
Let me comment thusly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY
The Arabs' principal accomplishment, if you can call it that, was destroying the ancient world wherever they went, and replacing it with abject barbarism for most of a thousand years.
Now, now, in no small part Europe got reacquinted (in the ~11th-12th century) with Aristotle via Arabic translations. So, there's that. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On May 6, 2015, at 11:10 AM, rysiek
displayed his own Gramscian damage thusly: Let me comment thusly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY
Right. And nothing is new. I cite *novel* stuff in every occurrence, outlining actual human *progress*, and you go all relativistic and say they’re derivative. Fine. Derivative of what, exactly? What was the Roman lateen sail derivative of if there had not been a triangular sail before, for instance. What is Zeno’s paradox, say, derivative of? The Pythagorean theorem? Hero’s steam turbine? There *is* an arrow to progress. It is measurable. The arrow of islamic culture points in completely the opposite direction. The left’s anti-western urge to annihilate progress, and thus humanity, is striking in its tenacity. It is evil. Cheers, RAH
The fact that you so easily mix up "Islamic" and "Arabic" is pretty hilarious.
Ur so lur-ned.
On 6 May 2015 18:35:45 GMT+01:00, Robert Hettinga
On May 6, 2015, at 11:10 AM, rysiek
displayed his own Gramscian damage thusly: Let me comment thusly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY
Right. And nothing is new. I cite *novel* stuff in every occurrence, outlining actual human *progress*, and you go all relativistic and say they’re derivative. Fine. Derivative of what, exactly? What was the Roman lateen sail derivative of if there had not been a triangular sail before, for instance.
What is Zeno’s paradox, say, derivative of? The Pythagorean theorem? Hero’s steam turbine?
There *is* an arrow to progress. It is measurable. The arrow of islamic culture points in completely the opposite direction. The left’s anti-western urge to annihilate progress, and thus humanity, is striking in its tenacity.
It is evil.
Cheers, RAH
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
that you think there is 'evil' is anti-arrow let alone 'arrow to progress'
islam is a small section of time within arab culture look to zarathustra
plus muhammad was basically a resistance fighter - anti capitalist like
jesus or so the story goes...
these are stories read or look into joseph campbell - nietzsche ...
buckminster fuller if you are interested
your frames are anti arrow ... your frames are fiction
and john young arabs did not invent 0 indians did - the 'arab' - actually
they say he was persian which is very different - wrote about it was
muhammad ibn musa alKhwarizmi
they say though that he invented algebra/trig but probably also it is a
build - arabs did a lot of astronomy invented tools for calculations etc
... would be nice to know more about what the chinese where doing then too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_ibn_M%C5%ABs%C4%81_al-Khw%C4%8...
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Cathal (Phone) wrote: The fact that you so easily mix up "Islamic" and "Arabic" is pretty
hilarious. Ur so lur-ned. On 6 May 2015 18:35:45 GMT+01:00, Robert Hettinga On May 6, 2015, at 11:10 AM, rysiek Let me comment thusly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY Right. And nothing is new. I cite *novel* stuff in every occurrence, outlining actual human *progress*, and you go all relativistic and say they're derivative. Fine. Derivative of what, exactly? What was the Roman lateen sail derivative of if there had not been a triangular sail before, for instance. What is Zeno's paradox, say, derivative of? The Pythagorean theorem? Hero's steam turbine? There *is* an arrow to progress. It is measurable. The arrow of islamic culture points in completely the opposite direction. The left's anti-wes!
tern
urge to annihilate progress, and thus humanity, is striking in its tenacity. It is evil. Cheers,
RAH --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. --
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On 5/7/15, Robert Hettinga
On May 6, 2015, at 2:31 PM, Cari Machet
wrote: that you think there is 'evil' is anti-arrow let alone 'arrow to progress'
One definition to rule them all eh? One man's 'evil' is another mans 'salvation'. As a good friend provided a very suitable definition years ago which I have shamelessly ripped and made my own: Evil is that which opposes my living. Now we can be sure that -my- definition is the one that -shall- rule them all! MWAHAHAHHAAAAA. <suitable expressions of unshakable vehemence>
Yup. Brain-rotted anti-intellectual intellectual. Bless your heart. Have a nice day, darlin’.
cpunks - that rare place where I witness relatively robust individuals. Oblig XKCD[someone on the internet was wrong] In many (most?) other places, like say fedora, ubuntu and debian lists, the tyranny of the majority appears to rule the day and the Cotton Wool World is worshipped by all dum and dummer. So thank you cpunks. <awwwwww> Z
trololololo On 06/05/15 20:18, Robert Hettinga wrote:
On May 6, 2015, at 1:54 PM, Cathal (Phone)
wrote: The fact that you so easily mix up "Islamic" and "Arabic" is pretty hilarious.
Islam is an Arab cult.
:-)
Cheers, RAH
-- Scientific Director, IndieBio Irish Programme Now running in Cork, Ireland May->July Learn more at http://eu.indie.bio and follow along! Twitter: @onetruecathal Phone: +353876363185 miniLock: JjmYYngs7akLZUjkvFkuYdsZ3PyPHSZRBKNm6qTYKZfAM peerio.com: cathalgarvey
Dnia środa, 6 maja 2015 20:43:48 Cathal Garvey pisze:
trololololo
(...)
Scientific Director, IndieBio Irish Programme
Well played. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
Castigating random racists on the 'net is basically part of my job as a geneticist and biotech evangelist, right? On 06/05/15 21:15, rysiek wrote:
Dnia środa, 6 maja 2015 20:43:48 Cathal Garvey pisze:
trololololo
(...)
Scientific Director, IndieBio Irish Programme
Well played.
-- Scientific Director, IndieBio Irish Programme Now running in Cork, Ireland May->July Learn more at http://eu.indie.bio and follow along! Twitter: @onetruecathal Phone: +353876363185 miniLock: JjmYYngs7akLZUjkvFkuYdsZ3PyPHSZRBKNm6qTYKZfAM peerio.com: cathalgarvey
Dnia środa, 6 maja 2015 21:57:40 Cathal Garvey pisze:
Castigating random racists on the 'net is basically part of my job as a geneticist and biotech evangelist, right?
That's actually a bit left, but yeah. :) -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
Is there something you guys are going for? Two cops got shot, the executive arm of the government has significant issues as a result. No other conclusions can be made. Not sure why the response to cop-killing is so hefty, isn't it fairly common in the US? Isn't it to be expected sometimes? It's a bit wild west, but that's nothing new in America. Further I do not see any problems solved by privatizing violence (or, actually, policing). If you'd like policing to change, use the democratic means to do so. If you don't like the democratic means, fix that. It's vital. If you're a libertarian you're usually still democratic of sorts.
On 5/12/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte
means to do so. If you don't like the democratic means, fix that. It's vital. If you're a libertarian you're usually still democratic of sorts.
I appreciate your sentiment and what I perceive as your implicit "folks, consider being cautious" but when you say "fix that" the obvious question is "how"? I don't know that -any- system can fix any other system except to appear to do so for a limited period of time until it too degenerates due to the usual problems - individual human weaknesses (greed, lust, anger, unwarranted reactions etc). Do you actually believe there's an answer to -how- to "fix it"? Or, are you uncomfortable with this discussion? If you believe that this discussion is counter productive to what you perceive as your and or our interests I'm interested to hear about; but although "fix it" it sounds superficially laudable it's cheap and, well, superficial. You'll need to pontificate a little more deeply to impress folks around these parts :) Regards, Zenaan
2015-05-12 9:23 GMT+09:00 Zenaan Harkness
I appreciate your sentiment and what I perceive as your implicit "folks, consider being cautious" but when you say "fix that" the obvious question is "how"?
The how is slightly easier to answer, it is just a how-to-get-there. The where to go is the real issue.
I don't know that -any- system can fix any other system except to appear to do so for a limited period of time until it too degenerates due to the usual problems - individual human weaknesses (greed, lust, anger, unwarranted reactions etc).
Is this the problem? Human collective madness seems to have fostered first kings and such royalty, whom then managed things as they did. Now we live in a more Roman-like empire, where populism rules because the crowd does. I suspect intentional market-expansion tactics found a happy marriage with "American Imperialism" in providing a certain brand of democracy around the world. It's not even obvious if that's good or bad. It sure has a certain efficiency to it. And with the expert management of the superwealthy we're practically guaranteed of capitalistic democracy's success. I simply do not know what's best. So I tried to avoid the discussion for the nonce. I am certain that a world in which people's lives are continuously on the line is not one I'd like to live in. Less violence is more efficient, too, as less is materially lost in conflict. The police are not brainy philosophy types, so long as they do what they're supposed to (represent the law, that is) you should not blame them at all. Better to be systematic about solving issues. Petty crime and petty policing is a mayor grievance. Why have the petty laws? If it's hidden taxation, maybe it's just better that way. Why else is it done? Don't hate the player, hate the game. Current politics puts the masses in charge. They chose them that chose these laws.
Do you actually believe there's an answer to -how- to "fix it"?
There is. The answer changes depending on what you care about, but there is.
Or, are you uncomfortable with this discussion?
The democracy discussion is an exceedingly uncomfortable one. The largest problem is pragmatism. Reality is cruel, yet I'd like not to be. A simple example is having longer or shorter working days. Longer working days (might, it's just an example) make a more productive society, yet it is not something I'd necessarily want. Reality is also intricate in it's interconnections, and amazing in it's diversity. It is exceedingly hard to talk about. I suspect we'll continue muddling in murky waters until we find a way to collaboratively apply something like First Order Formal Logic. A sort of Wikipedia, but it would be an encyclopedia of arguments. Enter your axiom's and get your logical conclusions. Unfortunately, ArgueOnlineTM is a project I'd rather watch than start.
If you believe that this discussion is counter productive to what you perceive as your and or our interests I'm interested to hear about; but although "fix it" it sounds superficially laudable it's cheap and, well, superficial. You'll need to pontificate a little more deeply to impress folks around these parts :)
Seems much like I just need to troll harder... I don't see much in terms of discussion solutions at all. I've been thinking frequently about map-reduce politics. I feel like a lot of trouble comes from a lack of involvement in politics, partly due to corruption and whatnot making involvement mostly a pesky annoyance. And partly because people don't know how to be involved, can't be bothered to spend the time to learn, and well, because it doesn't matter anyway. Individual opinions are irrelevant, unless you're elected, in which case it matters quite much quite suddenly. So, what we do: Starting with a population we convene in groups of 20. These groups elect a single person to represent them (not to rule them, but to represent). They can do so with a 16/20 agreement, if they fail to achieve that agreement they will not be represented. The grouping method should be geographic by default, but allow people to form groups at will. A variation with randomized groups provides weaker convergence as geography correlates with cultural norms, and does not provide greater safety per se. This first level electorate (1 person out of every 20) will also form into groups of 20, and again elect a single person. This causes a tree like structure, leading up to a top level of less than 20 people which will not select an elected (there is no president of the world). It scales decently ^1 20 (very small school class) ^2 400 (a moderate/small school) ^3 8,000 ^4 160,000 (two very large football stadiums (like Real Madrid's) ^5 3,200,000 (~population of Kuwait/Uruguay/Lithuania) ^6 64,000,000 (~population of the UK/Thailand) ^7 1,280,000,000 (~population of India/China) ^8 25,600,000,000 (about 4 times humanity, top council will be 6 people) (group size rationale, skip if you don't care) I chose 20 because larger groups are favorable, to cause lower levels to have a higher degree of professionalism. Additionally 20 * 7 (=140) is still an almost first-name-possible group size. I also think 8 layers seems like a good quantity. Reducing the group size to 10 causes there to be 10 levels, with the highest being 7/10 filled. There's some chance there'll exist an 11th level in the not-too-distant future, the 20 groupings are expected to be stable even with "optimistic" population growth estimates. Importantly, I think 20 provides a good balance of being able to get to know people, yet not uncomfortably personally. Culture and other factors may make tweaking of group sizes favorable. Especially in remote regions it may be hardly/unfeasible to group into neat groups. This effect is noncritical. Every level is allowed to make law for the levels below it. The extend of permissible law is limited by higher level law. In accordance with the laws the levels may levy taxes and manage budgets. If law permits they may contract natural/legal persons to perform tasks, even legal persons of their own making. Somewhat interesting to note is that this is not at all a peaceful setup. Every representative will continue to fight for it's group's unfair advantage. I would hope the highest level will create a legal person that is exclusively granted military rights, with elaborate safeguards, so as to enforce a demilitarized planet (let's at least get that out of the way as best we can..). Similarly I imagine multiple levels of courts. I wish for free migration, because we are all human and our place of birth was not a choice, but who am I? After all it will be an exceedingly fair struggle. A very pure form of democracy, with exceptional clarity of authority and robustness in growth. It would fail only because of the people. But to my sorrow, it just might.
On 5/12/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte
2015-05-12 9:23 GMT+09:00 Zenaan Harkness
: ... Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Very good principle.
Current politics puts the masses in charge.
I dispute this. And I think if you read me saying that, you'd disagree with it to ("...the superwealthy managing things to opportunistically maximise economic efficiency...")
They chose them that chose these laws.
To summarise - I say that such statements are overly simplistic to the point of being false.
Do you actually believe there's an answer to -how- to "fix it"?
There is. The answer changes depending on what you care about, but there is.
Good answer :) I am hopeful though not optimistic that your hopeful optimism is well placed.
Or, are you uncomfortable with this discussion?
The democracy discussion is an exceedingly uncomfortable one.
I meant the "Jim Bell vindicated" one. Not that it matters ... discussion is useful if it's useful for someone. Not that discussion has to be useful for anyone - entertainment appears to be enough for all those in this rather large box I made called "most people".
The largest problem is pragmatism. Reality is cruel, yet I'd like not to be.
Precise your words be not.
A simple example is having longer or shorter working days. Longer working days (might, it's just an example) make a more productive society, yet it is not something I'd necessarily want.
I suggest choosing our foundations carefully. More to the point, I suggest we be careful to note the foundation assumptions we make, in this case "pragmatism" (sounds very similar to my use of the word "utility" above. Hope I'm not being too deconstructionist for y'all. - Pragmatism. - Utility. - Entertainment. - "Principle". - Truth. - Transparency. - Awareness vs education. - Ends and means and using one to justify the other. - Justice. - Equitability. - Equality, that bloody myth. - Faith. Hope. - Sanity. - Individual will vs "collective will", and the tyranny of democracy. - Scientific fact. - "Scientific" theory, aka scientific fiction. Even a "scientific fact" can turn out at a later time to be merely a suitably illusory scientific fiction, in the light of future "scientific facts". What a whirlwind eh? Our foundations assumed (in the words we say or type) often fly by without being noticed or acknowledged as fundamentally "chosen". Embrace your inner chooser. And choose wisely. I find it hard to restrain from expressing cynicism about "most humans", but is that useful/ pragmatic? Is it fair? Does it contribute to awareness of problems we collectively face? Although my cynicism has just a slim hope of being entertaining and giving me personally the felling of "release" to some small degree, I believe my cynical expressions do little else - yet I rarely restrain myself in this regard.
Reality is also intricate in it's interconnections, and amazing in it's diversity. It is exceedingly hard to talk about. I suspect we'll continue
Ack. And more ack.
muddling in murky waters until we find a way to collaboratively apply something like First Order Formal Logic. A sort of Wikipedia, but it would be an encyclopedia of arguments. Enter your axiom's and get your logical conclusions. Unfortunately, ArgueOnlineTM is a project I'd rather watch than start.
Oh let's begin then and define love as "that feeling experienced in temporal relation to personal actions founded in a healthy application of formal first order logic to maximizing collective "benefit" with individual human activity". Or something. How does that sound for a wedding vow? Yep, first order formal logic, putting the joy back into life... Pretty sure the masses will gravitate to this one. A great line for your new book "Zen and that art of effective communication" subtitled "How to -really- win friends and influence people". I guess it's reasonable to presume some level of "effectiveness in the world" as at least one foundation test for "are we just pissing in the wind here."
If you believe that this discussion is counter productive to what you perceive as your and or our interests I'm interested to hear about; but although "fix it" it sounds superficially laudable it's cheap and, well, superficial. You'll need to pontificate a little more deeply to impress folks around these parts :)
Seems much like I just need to troll harder... I don't see much in terms of discussion solutions at all.
I've been thinking frequently about map-reduce politics. I feel like a lot of trouble comes from a lack of involvement in politics, partly due to corruption and whatnot making involvement mostly a pesky annoyance. And
If only "democratic politics" -were- merely a "pesky annoyance" rather than a life sucking collection of often corrupt crap and crappy individuals (notwithstanding those with genuine heart for something other than themselves).
partly because people don't know how to be involved,
Crap. Perhaps you mean "involved in a way which is effective"?
can't be bothered to spend the time to learn,
Voting, and "voting with your dollars" are not hard to understand. These are the foundations of a capitalist so-called democratic society.
and well, because it doesn't matter anyway.
That's the cynical position "most people" take. How do we lift ourselves out of this crap by our bootstrings, individually and collectively? Answers damn it! I want answers!!
Individual opinions are irrelevant, unless you're elected, in which case it matters quite much quite suddenly.
So, what we do:
Starting with a population we convene in groups of 20. These groups elect a single person to represent them (not to rule them, but to represent)
Which makes it easy to be sacked on notice by some vote eg 10 in the group (20-you-10=9 left over); or whatever - Debian seems to have nailed a good voting procedure, yet still suffers (I say) some of the classic 'democracy problems' - perhaps this "grouping" concept has some really good merit. Hmm...
They can do so with a 16/20 agreement, if they fail to achieve that agreement they will not be represented. The grouping method should be geographic by default, but allow people to form groups at will. A variation with randomized groups provides weaker convergence as geography correlates with cultural norms, and does not provide greater safety per se.
This first level electorate (1 person out of every 20) will also form into groups of 20, and again elect a single person. This causes a tree like structure, leading up to a top level of less than 20 people which will not select an elected (there is no president of the world).
Ensuring an odd number of individuals at the top level - for voting purposes, odd numbers are -much- better in general (no need to have a "chairman" who has two votes). You see if one person get's elected to be "non voting" (so there are an odd number, so there can be no ties), then the tendency is always to let that person to vote in order to break the tie, so then that person is in a different class, which I think is not good at all. Perhaps just have a "if the voting margin for this type of vote is 50/50, and there are exactly half of the votes each way, then the status quo remains" - that might be the simplest clean approach.
It scales decently ^1 20 (very small school class) ^2 400 (a moderate/small school) ^3 8,000 ^4 160,000 (two very large football stadiums (like Real Madrid's) ^5 3,200,000 (~population of Kuwait/Uruguay/Lithuania) ^6 64,000,000 (~population of the UK/Thailand) ^7 1,280,000,000 (~population of India/China) ^8 25,600,000,000 (about 4 times humanity, top council will be 6 people)
(group size rationale, skip if you don't care) I chose 20 because larger groups are favorable, to cause lower levels to have a higher degree of professionalism. Additionally 20 * 7 (=140) is still an almost first-name-possible group size. I also think 8 layers seems like a good quantity. Reducing the group size to 10 causes there to be 10 levels, with the highest being 7/10 filled. There's some chance there'll exist an 11th level in the not-too-distant future, the 20 groupings are expected to be stable even with "optimistic" population growth estimates. Importantly, I think 20 provides a good balance of being able to get to know people, yet not uncomfortably personally. Culture and other factors may make tweaking of group sizes favorable. Especially in remote regions it may be hardly/unfeasible to group into neat groups. This effect is noncritical.
Group size must always be malleable - some people turning up, not turning up, children becoming of voting age, people moving, etc etc. No point getting fixated on 20, but merely on the concept of "relatively small groups" - perhaps a minimum group size of say 7, and a maximum group size of say 47 (picking random numbers here). Of course, there becomes a collective benefit in maximizing voting power at higher layers, by maximising the number of groups in your lower level(s) - therefore minimizing group size. Probably also important to consider population growth and reduction in cities, and how that effects the levels. Regardless of system, numbers, levels, how the chosen system might be gamed needs to be analysed critically, and also mathematically in detail (Debian uses a "Condorcet" type voting system due to its mathematical properties), because such analysis will be done anyway by those with capacity, so it must be open for all to understand.
Every level is allowed to make law for the levels below it. The extend of permissible law is limited by higher level law. In accordance with the
And also by lower levels - do you want financially self-motivated elected individuals at higher levels collaborating to dominate lower levels in respect of zoning and development - effectively gaming the system in a direction that was not intended? (It's rhetorical, of course not.)
laws the levels may levy taxes and manage budgets. If law permits they may contract natural/legal persons to perform tasks, even legal persons of their own making.
Somewhat interesting to note is that this is not at all a peaceful setup. Every representative will continue to fight for it's group's unfair advantage. I would hope the highest level will create a legal person that is exclusively granted military rights, with elaborate safeguards, so as to enforce a demilitarized planet (let's at least get that out of the way as best we can..).
Hmm, enforce demilitarization by building a military force. You know what, all you "top-level" guys, have I got a plain plane plan for you, with designs on the hop for excellent ICBMs, control systems, communication networks and more - and if you sign this 3-year contract, we'll build 'em all in your 5th and 6th level electorates! That's what we at Lockheed-Zentin call a win, win, win win win situation :D :D
Similarly I imagine multiple levels of courts. I wish for free migration, because we are all human and our place of birth was not a choice, but who am I?
You sir, are an idiot. I wish for protection of my family and brothers and sisters - no, I crave for racial strength in my region; fuck it, even -one- region! I am what many would call wealthy, have some schooling (the three R's - readin, typin and web surfin), living in natural and technological abundance (car, computer) - why would I ever agree to take in the dregs of the world onto my farm? Thank you very fucking much but I'm productive and so's mah land, Boy! I grace 250 head of cattle, feeding thousands of people on a yearly basis, and am making enough (at least in a good year when it rains enough) to continue paying off the mortgage so I can draw it down in a few years for my children when they want a car and want to go to Uni (and hell, they might want to do some travel to experience the world). Exactly who's land you gonna take for these migranets?
After all it will be an exceedingly fair struggle.
Like fuck it will! You can take my cattle from my cold dead hands! And here I was thinking I was talking with a sane person...
A very pure form of democracy, with exceptional clarity of authority and robustness in growth.
I guess those "levels" have all been built with those "very pure form of humans, with exceptional clarity of authority and robustness in their concepts of growth." Damn! Gimme some of your pills man! Dunno what world you're in, but I need your pills in this world I find my self!
It would fail only because of the people.
Ahh yes. Well well well. I just -knew- you'd end up agreein with me :) "Most people", rearing their ugly heads once again! But ah bing but a boom clunk crash.
But to my sorrow, it just might.
Damn right it just might fail. Only thing you're wrong about there is the "might" bit. :) Zenaan
On 05/11/2015 09:49 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
Crap. Perhaps you mean "involved in a way which is effective"?
Crap. Perhaps you mean "involved in a way that doesn't have any net negative effect on my life."? Never discount the power of psychopathy to prevent solidarity, demoralize and disenfranchise.
On 5/13/15, Razer
On 05/11/2015 09:49 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
Crap. Perhaps you mean "involved in a way which is effective"?
Crap. Perhaps you mean "involved in a way that doesn't have any net negative effect on my life."?
Never discount the power of psychopathy to prevent solidarity, demoralize and disenfranchise.
Fair point. Regards, Zenaan
On Wed, 6 May 2015 15:18:50 -0400
Robert Hettinga
On May 6, 2015, at 1:54 PM, Cathal (Phone)
wrote: The fact that you so easily mix up "Islamic" and "Arabic" is pretty hilarious.
Islam is an Arab cult.
A derivative of the fucking jew-christian intellectual cesspool, and started in the 700 after nonexistent 'christ'.
:-)
Cheers, RAH
On May 6, 2015 1:31:02 PM Juan
A derivative of the fucking jew-christian intellectual cesspool, and started in the 700 after nonexistent 'christ'.
+1,000,000 All religions are cults. The abrahamic varieties are particularly egregious, and their adherents spread their chosen brand of crazy like a virus and breed like rabbits to perpetuate the infection. Society as a whole will not advance until this disease is eradicated. -S
what i would like is for people to not equate everything with diseases
people desire religion for a reason sometimes psychological reasons and
societal cultural reasons it didnt just manifest onaccounta' because
religion taps into some ancient shit way back in the cells memory ... ritual
the torah taught people how to plant seeds and hindu and other ancient
'religions' are philosophy more than religion and they also have a whole
medical arm > ayuvedic medicine
to say society has not advanced or will not advance is super inaccurate ...
it slows it down but life advances in spite of human shit ... life isnt
just humans its a ton of stuff and people are just a part of it people cant
halt the movement of life itself in any way no matter how fucked up people
are or how powerful humans dream they are... they just are not that
powerful
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Shelley
On May 6, 2015 1:31:02 PM Juan
wrote: A derivative of the fucking jew-christian intellectual
cesspool, and started in the 700 after nonexistent 'christ'.
+1,000,000
All religions are cults. The abrahamic varieties are particularly egregious, and their adherents spread their chosen brand of crazy like a virus and breed like rabbits to perpetuate the infection. Society as a whole will not advance until this disease is eradicated.
-S
-- Cari Machet NYC 646-436-7795 carimachet@gmail.com AIM carismachet Syria +963-099 277 3243 Amman +962 077 636 9407 Berlin +49 152 11779219 Reykjavik +354 894 8650 Twitter: @carimachet https://twitter.com/carimachet 7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187 Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without permission is strictly prohibited.
On Wed, 06 May 2015 13:49:20 -0700
Shelley
On May 6, 2015 1:31:02 PM Juan
wrote: A derivative of the fucking jew-christian intellectual cesspool, and started in the 700 after nonexistent 'christ'.
+1,000,000
All religions are cults. The abrahamic varieties are particularly egregious, and their adherents spread their chosen brand of crazy like a virus and breed like rabbits to perpetuate the infection. Society as a whole will not advance until this disease is eradicated.
According to wikipedia there are 2400 million christians and 1600 million muslims. I assume the figures are inflated but even if the real numbers are lower, we're still seriously fucked up =/ A while back I read that 75% of americans consider the bible to be the 'word of god' or 'inspired by god'. (oh, here's the source http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three-four-bible-word-god.aspx ) Do you Shelley (or others) think that estimate is accurate?
-S
On May 7, 2015 2:35:29 AM Juan
On Wed, 06 May 2015 13:49:20 -0700 Shelley
wrote: On May 6, 2015 1:31:02 PM Juan
wrote: A derivative of the fucking jew-christian intellectual cesspool, and started in the 700 after nonexistent 'christ'.
+1,000,000
All religions are cults. The abrahamic varieties are particularly egregious, and their adherents spread their chosen brand of crazy like a virus and breed like rabbits to perpetuate the infection. Society as a whole will not advance until this disease is eradicated.
According to wikipedia there are 2400 million christians and 1600 million muslims. I assume the figures are inflated but even if the real numbers are lower, we're still seriously fucked up =/
A while back I read that 75% of americans consider the bible to be the 'word of god' or 'inspired by god'. (oh, here's the source http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three-four-bible-word-god.aspx )
Do you Shelley (or others) think that estimate is accurate?
Juan: Unfortunately, I think 75% is an accurate figure. I live in the most "unchurched" city in the US (we have legal recreational marijuana and voter approved marriage equality), and there are still a fair number of bullshit mega-churches and god-botherers here. Muslims will outnumber xians at some point in the next few decades (source is a BBC piece I heard the other night. Sorry for no link.) They're all batshit crazy, but most violent xians stick to bombing abortion clinics. Muslim extremists are indiscriminate in their barbarism. So, yeah. We are fucked... -S
bush and cheney rummy did not just fucking bomb abortion clinics
who the fuck are you counting here? you know fucking obama is a christian
there have only been christians in that fucking wh to my knowledge and
people flipped out when kennedy was in office because he was a catholic
christian so i guess most are protestant >>> germanic ideology
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Shelley
On May 7, 2015 2:35:29 AM Juan
wrote: On Wed, 06 May 2015 13:49:20 -0700
Shelley
wrote: On May 6, 2015 1:31:02 PM Juan
wrote: A derivative of the fucking jew-christian intellectual cesspool, and started in the 700 after nonexistent 'christ'.
+1,000,000
All religions are cults. The abrahamic varieties are particularly egregious, and their adherents spread their chosen brand of crazy like a virus and breed like rabbits to perpetuate the infection. Society as a whole will not advance until this disease is eradicated.
According to wikipedia there are 2400 million christians and 1600 million muslims. I assume the figures are inflated but even if the real numbers are lower, we're still seriously fucked up =/
A while back I read that 75% of americans consider the bible to be the 'word of god' or 'inspired by god'. (oh, here's the source http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three-four-bible-word-god.aspx )
Do you Shelley (or others) think that estimate is accurate?
Juan: Unfortunately, I think 75% is an accurate figure. I live in the most "unchurched" city in the US (we have legal recreational marijuana and voter approved marriage equality), and there are still a fair number of bullshit mega-churches and god-botherers here.
Muslims will outnumber xians at some point in the next few decades (source is a BBC piece I heard the other night. Sorry for no link.) They're all batshit crazy, but most violent xians stick to bombing abortion clinics. Muslim extremists are indiscriminate in their barbarism.
So, yeah. We are fucked...
-S
-- Cari Machet NYC 646-436-7795 carimachet@gmail.com AIM carismachet Syria +963-099 277 3243 Amman +962 077 636 9407 Berlin +49 152 11779219 Reykjavik +354 894 8650 Twitter: @carimachet https://twitter.com/carimachet 7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187 Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without permission is strictly prohibited.
On May 7, 2015 5:23:15 AM Cari Machet
bush and cheney rummy did not just fucking bomb abortion clinics
who the fuck are you counting here?
You're absolutely right about that. I was talking about individual citizens, not the institutionalized religious terrorism of nation states and/or their rogue, installed dictators (specifically the war criminals you listed, but they all have bloody hands.) -S you know fucking obama is a christian
there have only been christians in that fucking wh to my knowledge and people flipped out when kennedy was in office because he was a catholic christian so i guess most are protestant >>> germanic ideology
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Shelley
wrote: On May 7, 2015 2:35:29 AM Juan
wrote: On Wed, 06 May 2015 13:49:20 -0700
Shelley
wrote: On May 6, 2015 1:31:02 PM Juan
wrote: A derivative of the fucking jew-christian intellectual cesspool, and started in the 700 after nonexistent 'christ'.
+1,000,000
All religions are cults. The abrahamic varieties are particularly egregious, and their adherents spread their chosen brand of crazy like a virus and breed like rabbits to perpetuate the infection. Society as a whole will not advance until this disease is eradicated.
According to wikipedia there are 2400 million christians and 1600 million muslims. I assume the figures are inflated but even if the real numbers are lower, we're still seriously fucked up =/
A while back I read that 75% of americans consider the bible to be the 'word of god' or 'inspired by god'. (oh, here's the source http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three-four-bible-word-god.aspx )
Do you Shelley (or others) think that estimate is accurate?
Juan: Unfortunately, I think 75% is an accurate figure. I live in the most "unchurched" city in the US (we have legal recreational marijuana and voter approved marriage equality), and there are still a fair number of bullshit mega-churches and god-botherers here.
Muslims will outnumber xians at some point in the next few decades (source is a BBC piece I heard the other night. Sorry for no link.) They're all batshit crazy, but most violent xians stick to bombing abortion clinics. Muslim extremists are indiscriminate in their barbarism.
So, yeah. We are fucked...
-S
-- Cari Machet NYC 646-436-7795 carimachet@gmail.com AIM carismachet Syria +963-099 277 3243 Amman +962 077 636 9407 Berlin +49 152 11779219 Reykjavik +354 894 8650 Twitter: @carimachet https://twitter.com/carimachet
7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187
Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without permission is strictly prohibited.
As usual, cpunks is descending into some sort of whirlpool of itchy grudges, but I think the most interesting tweet of the last month was this one: It's ridiculous that even though US President is black, still such crimes agnst US blacks continue to occur. #BlackLivesMatter #FreddieGray Khamenei.ir (@khamenei_ir) April 26, 2015 Think about that for a minute, perhaps replacing "black" with "Shia" or "Han" or "obnoxious mailing list trolls" and, well... --dan
On May 7, 2015 7:12:21 AM dan@geer.org wrote:
As usual, cpunks is descending into some sort of whirlpool of itchy grudges, but I think the most interesting tweet of the last month was this one:
It's ridiculous that even though US President is black, still such crimes agnst US blacks continue to occur. #BlackLivesMatter #FreddieGray
Khamenei.ir (@khamenei_ir) April 26, 2015
Think about that for a minute, perhaps replacing "black" with "Shia" or "Han" or "obnoxious mailing list trolls" and, well...
--dan
Don't they still imprison (or worse) LGBT folk & dissidents there? One tweet does not an ayatollah redeem. If you set aside the Crusades et al, and his own dubious, questionable past in Argentina, I quite like pope Francis. I love that he sneaks out at night to feed the homeless and eschews the material excess that exists at the Vatican. It doesn't excuse the scourge and shame of his religion telling people in the developing world that god says they're not allowed to use condoms, and that they don't protect one from acquiring HIV. To his credit, Francis is telling the bible-beaters to back off on the focus of such issues, but the tenets remain. -an obnoxious mailing list troll.
Dnia czwartek, 7 maja 2015 08:53:00 Shelley pisze:
On May 7, 2015 7:12:21 AM dan@geer.org wrote:
As usual, cpunks is descending into some sort of whirlpool of itchy grudges, but I think the most interesting tweet of the
last month was this one: It's ridiculous that even though US President is black, still such crimes agnst US blacks continue to occur. #BlackLivesMatter #FreddieGray
Khamenei.ir (@khamenei_ir) April 26, 2015
Think about that for a minute, perhaps replacing "black" with "Shia" or "Han" or "obnoxious mailing list trolls" and, well...
--dan
Don't they still imprison (or worse) LGBT folk & dissidents there? One tweet does not an ayatollah redeem.
Why do we conflate "redemption" with "right to criticize"? Khamenei has a point, but trhat does not in any way suddenly make Iran a great place. I can criticize Russia at the same time I criticize USA. For some reason, though, when I do the latter, I gat an overwhelmingly positive response, while the former brings in an overwhelmingly negative one. As if criticizing Russia was supporting the US. -_-' Sorry about that, just a beef I have... -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
Guys, chill. Most religious people are only mildly so, adhering only in the vaguest sense to their religions. If they do not adhere to religion their ideas are about as inaccurate and dangerous, but they are less synchronized. Many people utilize faith for productivity or resolution to the existential crisis. Without their faith they would be worse people. I think it would be better to write a bible-for-atheists, with guidance for living in the modern world. This new scripture should motivate critical thinking, max(independence + transparancy), productivity (meaning, advancement of the race or a derivative race/structure) and satisfaction. Some understanding of the implications of evolutionary effects (selection, and how it reflects on the currently existing), mathematics, and the nature of energy and the universe (including entropy) must be included for a complete and worthwhile picture. Spirituality must be explained as a function of the brain, mythical events through statistics and human capacity ("No gods but man"). Simply because we're crazed monkeys and desperately require (very) approximate models in order to function. And simply because our emotions run amok of us more often than not. Until we have this well-reasoned word-of-sanity, the bible (or the apparently more recent Koran) might be a better alternative to madness. A simple way to soothe troubled souls. Through the evolution applied before it's popularity, hard to disprove, infectious and attractive. The dark question you might be asking yourself is, where and with whom does that leave me? I'm very deeply concerned about religion influencing law. This has happened forever, and will happen for the foreseeable future. Another demon for democracy, which leaves the innocent and well-intentioned, but ultimately foolish mass in charge. Or.. doesn't it :) ? (hint: chill)
On 05/06/2015 10:35 AM, Robert Hettinga wrote:
The left’s anti-western urge to annihilate progress
As one very wise native American (Black Elk) once said when asked what he thought about 'modern progress': "I guess it depends on what you're progressing towards." I posit everyone’s so busy 'progressing', that for the last century... perhaps the entire timeline of the industrial revolution, NO ONE has been noticing what they're progressing towards. Namely self-annihilating the species. I'd much rather "annihilate 'progress'" thanks. RR "Yet hear me, friends! we have now to deal with another people, small and feeble when our forefathers first met with them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough, they have a mind to till the soil, and the love of possessions is a disease in them. These people have made many rules that the rich may break, but the poor may not! They have a religion in which the poor worship, but the rich will not! They even take tithes of the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule. They claim this mother of ours, the Earth, for their own use, and fence their neighbors away from her, and deface her with their buildings and their refuse. They compel her to produce out of season, and when sterile she is made to take medicine in order to produce again. All this is sacrilege." ~Tatanka Iyotake (Sitting Bull)
On Wed, 06 May 2015 10:32:59 +0200
rysiek
Oblig. http://xkcd.com/1505/
Hehehe.
Let me comment thusly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY
Nice animation although I don't think the "All creative work is derivative" line is completely true. As a matter of fact, she shows a lot of stuff that is in a way 'original'. Except for the jesus part haha. (just in case, I'm no way defending any kind of intellectual property) Seems to me that the "all work depends on previous work" take is better suited to science and technology?
Dnia czwartek, 7 maja 2015 05:59:11 Juan pisze:
Let me comment thusly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY
Nice animation although I don't think the "All creative work is derivative" line is completely true. As a matter of fact, she shows a lot of stuff that is in a way 'original'. Except for the jesus part haha.
Point is: no creative work is entirely, 100%, creatio ex nihilo. And that's, unfortunately, what many think. Which brings us fucked-up policies regarding imaginary property, for instance. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On 05/05/2015 02:15 PM, Robert Hettinga wrote:
On May 5, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Juan
wrote: a fair amount of alleged libertarians are libertarianism's worst enemy…
“A libertarian is someone who agrees with *me*.” — J. Neil Schulman, “Alongside Night”
Cheers, RAH
A libertarian believes your rights are just as important as theirs until your rights interfere with theirs then your rights mean squat ~Me Other than that I would believe there's a 5th Column in the Libertarian ranks. There was such a thing in the Rethuiglican ranks too, in the 60s. A number of dems on the radical side of the party (had to believe now days) saw a weak Republican party and registered as Republicans to screw up their primaries, and possibly the national elections as well. The fellow I archived radio news/commentary for was one of them. Here's his CV: [February 20 2009] Travus T. Hipp Morning News & Commentary: Six Decades Of What Could Only Be Described As 'Anti-Americanism' - The Whats And Whys Of 'Where Did I Go Wrong?' https://archive.org/details/tth_090220 It speaks for it's anti-imperial self. The net effect of that attempt is unknown to me as I was a bit on the young side but I understand the strategy is possible. We'll see.
Dodd-Frank, 7 U.S.C. 7a-2(c)(5)(C) (C) Special rule for review and approval of event contracts and swaps contracts (i) Event contracts In connection with the listing of agreements, contracts, transactions, or swaps in excluded commodities that are based upon the occurrence, extent of an occurrence, or contingency (other than a change in the price, rate, value, or levels of a commodity described in section 1a(2)(i)2 of this title), by a designated contract market or swap execution facility, the Commission may determine that such agreements, contracts, or transactions are contrary to the public interest if the agreements, contracts, or transactions involve -- (I) activity that is unlawful under any Federal or State law; (II) terrorism; (III) assassination; (IV) war; (V) gaming; or (VI) other similar activity determined by the Commission, by rule or regulation, to be contrary to the public interest. (ii) Prohibition No agreement, contract, or transaction determined by the Commission to be contrary to the public interest under clause (i) may be listed or made available for clearing or trading on or through a registered entity.
From: "dan@geer.org"
Dodd-Frank, 7 U.S.C. 7a-2(c)(5)(C)
(C) Special rule for review and approval of event contracts and swaps contracts
(i) Event contracts
In connection with the listing of agreements, contracts, transactions, or swaps in excluded commodities that are based upon the occurrence, extent of an occurrence, or contingency (other than a change in the price, rate, value, or levels of a commodity described in section 1a(2)(i)2 of this title), by a designated contract market or swap execution facility, the Commission may determine that such agreements, contracts, or transactions are contrary to the public interest if the agreements, contracts, or transactions involve --
(I) activity that is unlawful under any Federal or State law;
> (II) terrorism;
(III) assassination;
(IV) war;
(V) gaming; or
(VI) other similar activity determined by the Commission, by rule or regulation, to be contrary to the public interest.
(ii) Prohibition
No agreement, contract, or transaction determined by the Commission to be contrary to the public interest under clause (i) may be listed or made available for clearing or trading on or through a registered entity.
Aha! It's yet another "Anti-Jim-Bell" law! I have a long history of causing legislatures to change the laws to obstruct what I'm doing. In 1990, I made an infrared-emitting device, mounted on my car, to cause it to look like an emergency vehicle, and turn red traffic lights to green. (The device being tricked was made by 3M, trademarked Opticom. (I called my device the "Optigreen). One example is: http://www.gtt.com/opticom-emergency-response/opticom-ir-system/ ) My device emitted at 880 nm wavelength, about 14.035 pulses per minute. In 1993, I made a large number of them for friends, sale, etc.Hearing about it, the Oregon Legislature passed the following law in 1994: http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/815.440 " 815.440¹ Unauthorized possession, use or distribution of traffic control signal operating device - • exemption - • penalty (1)A person commits the offense of unauthorized possession, use or distribution of a traffic control signal operating device if the person owns, uses, sells or otherwise distributes a device that is designed to control a traffic control light as a person using the device approaches the light. " A few years late, the US Congress enacted a law which criminalized the same thing, federally: 18 U.S.C. 39: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/39 "(a) Offenses.—(1) Sale.— Whoever, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly sells a traffic signal preemption transmitter to a nonqualifying user shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.(2) Use.— Whoever, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, being a nonqualifying user makes unauthorized use of a traffic signal preemption transmitter shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both.(b) Definitions.— In this section, the following definitions apply:(1) Traffic signal preemption transmitter.— The term “traffic signal preemption transmitter” means any mechanism that can change or alter a traffic signal’s phase time or sequence." Jim Bell
participants (15)
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Cari Machet
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Cathal (Phone)
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Cathal Garvey
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dan@geer.org
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grarpamp
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jim bell
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John Young
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Juan
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Lodewijk andré de la porte
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Razer
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Robert Hettinga
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rysiek
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Seth
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Shelley
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Zenaan Harkness