31 Oct
2019
31 Oct
'19
4:30 p.m.
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 09:35:05 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 02:58:45AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> I've probably said, maybe many times before, that ultimately it is
> utterly irrelevant whether a person claims to "like" the AP
> concept. It simply doesn't matter if YOU, or anyone else, "likes"
> or "dislikes" the idea of AP. I could, hypothetically (and
> counter-factually), claim I "hate" it, and what would that do?
> That wouldn't fool anyone. AP became inevitable the day I
> published it, BECAUSE I published it.
>
> The idea got out because _I_ had the courage to publish it, UNDER
> MY OWN NAME, courage that many on Cypherpunks apparently never
> had. I could have concealed it, "lost" it. Eventually it might
> have been discovered again, perhaps a few years later. But I,
> ever the impatient one, considered for weeks whether exposing the
> idea early might allow the government to permanently prevent it.
> Having decided that wouldn't happen, THEN I published it. So it
> could never be erased from reality. Forever. And yes, I give much
> thanks to John Young of Cryptome, who has kept a copy on public
> display for 20+ years.
>
> From the beginning, I claimed that AP, once successfully
> implemented, would complete eliminate the need for, and even the
> possibility of, militaries, war, and nuclear weapons. Has
> anybody else thought of another idea to accomplish that? Has my
>I believe anarchism aka "direct democracy" (as I understand that
term), is a way to achieve a peaceful transition from the current
failed system, yes. :
True, but remember David Friedman's "hard problem", published in his 1973 book The Machinery of Freedom. (republished 1989 and 2014)., There were thought to be major problems with having a minarchistic (or anarchistic) region (I won't call it a "country", with its implications in regards to the existence of a government,) Such a region, it was believed by Friedman (and myself, until January 1995, when I invented my AP idea. Although, I was unaware of Friedman's and his "Hard Problem" until long after 1995) would be subject to attack by other nations with the traditional tax-the-citizens and buy-militaries and attack-your-neighbors policies.
Do people on Cypherpunks simply accept my claim that I (by inventing AP) described the solution Friedman's "Hard Problem"? That AP foresees, and actually makes unavoidable, militaries, wars, and nuclear weapons?
That would be progress, but I don't recall seeing such a discussion. And I've never gotten (that I recall) a response from Friedman, acknowleding that I solved his 'Hard Problem'. Shouldn't he say something?
> 1. Everyone votes on, literally, everything.
Today this is technologically trivial.
One problem with this is that a 'vote' presumes that everybody is bound by the results of a 'vote'. The flavors of ice cream in my freezer aren't there because of any 'vote', are they?
> 2. Notwithstanding any and every vote of the collective/ mob,
the individual human's right to conscientiously and peacefully
object, is sacrosanct and may not be abrogated.
>The question is whether the "carrot" of such a peacful transition,
is possible in the face of the existing powers that be, without the
"stick" of AP.
I don't recall seeing such a discussion,
>> claim ever been successfully challenged? Or even SERIOUSLY
> challenged? Not here, to my knowledge, Does ANY of you have an
> argument why an AP-type system won't, or can't, eliminate all
> nuclear weapons? 24 years after I wrote it, does the average
> protesting IDIOT have any idea that somebody has actually
> described the solution to the problem he claims to desire? A
> solution he hasn't been told about, not because it wouldn't work,
> but instead because it WOULD work.
>
> Does anybody, NOW, 24 years later, believe that my AP concept was,
> is, or should be, "off-topic" on the Cypherpunks list? Has a
> more-important idea for the future of mankind ever been discussed
> on Cypherpunks? Step right up and claim it! What is the ultimate
> purpose of Cypherpunks but to try to eliminate the problems that
> government surely causes?
>
> The Federal Government began to spy on me within weeks, and
> probably not more than a few days, after I had published Part 1 of
> my AP essay on Digitaliberty. Want to hear more? See my 2003
> lawsuit, http://cryptome.org/jdb/jdb-v-usa-oct2004.pdf at
> least Claims 45-49. The Government committed dozens of felonies
> in order to further harass me and illegally keep me locked up.
> http://cryptome.org/jdb/jdb-v-usa-oct2004.pdf See Claims 504
> onward.
>
> I think that time has been far more kind to my rhetorical position
> than other people's. Prior to the existence of TOR and Bitcoin,
> some people might have doubted that pieces necessary to implement
> AP were likely to become available. (I'm not saying that TOR or
> Bitcoin is suitable; merely that their existence points the way to
> the eventual existence of AP as a functioning goal, using other
> tools more suitable to the task.) Now, does anybody on Cypherpunks
> claim that the technical background of AP could never be
> implemented? The best they can do is to claim that governments
> won't ALLOW AP to be implemented, because they know they will be
> the first targets.
>
> Remember what I said at the beginning of Part 2 of my AP essay:
>
> "Part 2
>
> "At the Village Pizza shop, as they were sitting down to consume a
> pepperoni, Dorothy asked Jim, 'So what other inventions are you
> working on?" Jim replied, 'I've got a new idea, but it's really
> evolutionary. Literally REVOLUTIONARY.' 'Okay, Jim, which
> government are you planning to overthrow?,' she asked, playing
> along.
>
> 'All of them,' answered Jim." "
>
> This conversation actually occurred, although somewhere along the
> way the correct "revolutionary" somehow got changed to
> "evolutionary". No, I said "revolutionary" TWICE, and I genuinely
> meant it. I was in Roslyn, Washington, the small town that the TV
> show 'Northern Exposure' was filmed. Look at the beginning
> credits, and you will see it: "Village Pizza".
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKDzDA-jgRs at 1:32
>
> I was there, sitting next to "Dorothy H.". For at least 5
> years I visited there in one day in early July to meet with other
> Northern Exposure fans, "Dorothy H." was one, and without
> intending to, she gave me one of the most fantastic and appropriate
> straight-lines in the history of conversation. Oddly, as I said,
> "All of them", the pizza came...And Dorothy never learned what my
> "revolutionary" idea was! But probably days later, I wrote of the
> incident in Part 2 of the AP essay.
>
> And no, the combination of Ethereum and Augur is not, YET, AP.
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17611585 "Its not Jim
> Bell's Assassination Politics but we're getting there." (And no,
> I didn't write that, and I don't know who did.) But the
> difference is merely the choice of those implementing Augur, not a
> fundamental limitation of the technology.
>
> The people who claim to be on the Cypherpunks, ostensibly to help,
> need to start considering reality.
> Jim Bell
>The truth is, most folks would proclaim to prefer a peaceful
transition, where they are their families lives remain safe
throughout the coming transition.
Quite true, but the prospect of the ultimate outcome will likely stop most resistance.,
>The truth also is, that TPTB ('member the Fed), have demonstrated a
few millenia of unwillingness to shift towards giving up their power
over the majority.
Very true also,.
>And in the face of these truths, another truth is that at some
tipping point, without a pathway of peace, most folks in angst,
distress and an abject loss to any solution, do tip over into
accepting literal chaos.
>We are at an incredible historical junction, a literal tipping point
- although it plays out over some years, historically it's very
quick.
>Which way will we collectively turn?
Certainly something to think about !!