From what you’ve described you may well have been running an illegal financial services product. There’s a non-zero chance you might get a
Debt & MoneyBank accounts overdrawn, missing and suspended without warning, bank won't talk to me (self.LegalAdviceUK) 596 submitted 3 days ago by suspendedbankaccs1 Hey everyone, Yesterday I attempted to login to my HSBC account with the app and couldn't login. It kept telling me: There appears to be a problem with your account. Please call Customer Services on xxxxxxxxxx So I called HSBC and was told that my account was suspended and that they can't talk to me, they'll send me a letter in a few weeks. Today, I've found that my bank accounts with Santander have disappeared from the app and my Barclays savings and current accounts are overdrawn by -£500,000 - which is insane! that account had less than £10k in it. The Barclays account has a transaction for -£500,000 with the description "to reconcile" - I didn't make that transaction and i don't know what it means. I called Barclays, and initially they were very polite but as soon as I gave them my info the agent dropped his tone, ignored my complaints and just told me that they are undertaking their legal duties - without telling me what that means and that they'll be in contact. He wouldn't transfer me to a manager or give me a timeframe. Santander have told me that they are "reconsidering our business relationship" and that they "have concerns about the transaction coming into my account". The Santander app now says We couldn't log you onto online services. This account type cannot be accessed from this device. Please try again later. I'm really confused about this reason, because I pay HMRC all the tax owed on all transactions coming into my business. This is really effecting my side business, being able to hold/send funds is a central aspect and I can't receive payment or process transactions. How do I solve this? Can I sue the bank for illegally and needlessly suspending my accounts? Are they allowed to discriminate against me just because of the type of business I run? 91 comments share save hide report all 91 comments sorted by: best (suggested) Want to add to the discussion? Post a comment! 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Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns. permalink embed save report reply [–]SecMac 339 points 3 days ago Process transactions on behalf of clients? Sounds like the service could be used to facilitate money laundering/ illicit payments by those clients, and in turn through the businesses (your) bank accounts. permalink embed save report reply [–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -229 points 3 days ago Because it's Monero, I have no way of knowing the real source of the payments. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Vasyrr 427 points 3 days ago There's your problem. WIllful ignorance is no defense, you are REQUIRED to know the sources of funds passing through your accounts, remaining purposefully ignorant is not a defense that will help you as anyone laundering money could claim the same. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -244 points 3 days ago What requires me to know the sources of funds? Monero is just a digital asset, there is no difference between me sending you 10 Monero and a criminal sending you 10 Monero - there is no way to tell. My exchange provider doesn't ask questions about the source of funds, they don't even ask for my name, email or address. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]kwolat 403 points 3 days ago (Anti) Money Laundering is all about untraceable assets like cash, jewellery, property, etc... If you're depositing a not insignificant amount of funds into their bank account and can not identify the source, the bank's gonna freak out. TBH, everything you're describing has red flags aaaaaaall over it from an AML point of view. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]iain_1986 262 points 3 days ago* What requires me to know the sources of funds? The banks and the government do. Monero is just a digital asset, there is no difference between me sending you 10 Monero and a criminal sending you 10 Monero - there is no way to tell. Which is why they are rapidly going to sever ties with you. You need to lawyer up. Edit - and I don't mean lawyer up because you have a case and are in the right... permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Expensive-Monk-6517 98 points 3 days ago KYC legislation. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]proper_mint 198 points 3 days ago You’re required to know the source of the funds under the Proceeds of Crime Act. If you operate in a regulated sector (basically anything to do with finance) you are required to carry out due diligence (know your client) on your customer. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]I_WANT_SAUSAGES 175 points 3 days ago there is no difference between me sending you 10 Monero and a criminal sending you 10 Monero Kind of sounds like there may literally be no difference.... permalink embed save parent report reply [–]bulletproof_alibi 464 points 3 days ago So you're operating some sort of unregulated cryptocurrency exchange/payment service? Stop posting on Reddit and find a good solicitor first thing in the morning. If you're really lucky you've only gotten yourself involved in a small tax or fraud investigation. If you're unlucky, you've been dealing with with sanctioned individuals or organisations. "Fixing" this at this stage may mean avoiding a custodial sentence. permalink embed save report reply [–][deleted] 3 days ago [removed] [–]LegalAdviceUK-ModTeam[M] 0 points 2 days agolocked comment Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason: Your comment was off-topic or unhelpful to the question posed. Please remember that all replies must be helpful, on-topic and legally orientated. Your post has been removed as it has not met our community standards on speaking to other posters. Please remember to speak to others in the way you wish to be spoken to. Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules before contributing further, and message the mods if you have any further queries. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Lloydy_boyThe world ain't fair and Santa ain't real 450 points 3 days ago So 3 different banks have shut your accounts down, it sounds like a money laundering/ fraud operation is in place. How do I solve this? You can’t. It’s entirely out of your hands, you’ll just have to wait the outcome of the investigations. Can I sue the bank for illegally and needlessly suspending my accounts? No, it won’t be illegal it’ll either have been done under instruction from the police (as 3 accounts affected), or because it has triggered the banks own policies and allowable under the Ts&Cs of your agreement with the bank. Are they allowed to discriminate against me just because of the type of business I run? How discriminate? What type of business, are you by any chance a slave trader then? permalink embed save report reply [–]Altruistic-Beach7625 53 points 3 days ago Can this thing happen if I get transferred pity money from a family member because I'm poor? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Lloydy_boyThe world ain't fair and Santa ain't real 25 points 3 days ago Can be for any incoming/outgoing transaction that the bank(s) don’t think is from/to legitimate funds/sources. You say in the OP “one account had less than £10k in it”, unless that amount is zero, and what with running your own business, I think you’ll struggle to convince anyone you’re poor. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -94 points 3 days ago I sell Monero payment processor software as a SaaS product. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]ig1 249 points 3 days ago Do you have a licence as an EMI? police visit (or raid if you’re unlucky). You should speak to a lawyer ASAP. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]dave8271 157 points 3 days ago Did you check if your business was in scope for FCA registration before you started and register if appropriate? https://www.fca.org.uk/cryptoassets-aml-ctf-regime/register Because if the nature of your business means you were supposed to register and you didn't, short version is you've made a significant mistake and this is almost certainly not going away quickly or easily; your accounts being frozen could potentially be the least of your worries. Based off what information you've posted in this thread I'd be inclined to suggest you talk to a proper solicitor ASAP. permalink embed save parent report reply [–][deleted] 3 days ago* [removed] [–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -134 points 3 days ago I'm not money laundering permalink embed save parent report reply [–]multijoy 214 points 3 days ago You may not be. But can you be sure that your commission isn’t coming from the crypto being laundered through your processor? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -163 points 3 days ago Well, I can't. Monero is untraceable. I can't not prove that funds are being laundered as the source of my funds. But neither can they prove that the funds are laundered. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Browntown-magician 230 points 3 days ago Then eventually they’re going to end their relationship with you. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Angustony 176 points 3 days ago They don't need to prove anything to end your business relationship. Read your T&C's. They are legally obligated to be sure that your funds are not laundered. They can't be sure, because Monero. To them, you are too risky to be worth the business and so they're not taking any chances. With the AML regulations as they are, companies like Monero are hard work. Looks like you need to get paid in BTC instead... permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Superjacketts 69 points 3 days ago They don't need to prove anything, they can close your accounts for any reason they want to as per your terms and conditions. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]A17012022 126 points 3 days ago Then you're pretty much fucked then chap. NAL and all but every bank is legally obligated to be sure that your funds aren't laundered. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Happycatlady1982 56 points 3 days ago They don't need to prove it, you do unfortunately. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BSturdy987 25 points 3 days ago To a bank that seems sketchy permalink embed save parent report reply [–]mosleyowl 42 points 3 days ago But if there may be a chance that it is, why would they risk it? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]PerformanceBoth1781 42 points 3 days ago* What this essentially is, is trying to prove a negative and in all honestly proving a negative just simply doesn't work and is heavily against you for example proving a negative is what people have to do in order to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment where the burden of proof is innocent beyond a reasonable doubt only 3 (out of 98 (%3.06)) of people wrongfully imprisoned in 2019/20 recieved compensation for wrongful imprisonment there was 0 successful applications from 2017 to 2019. These are criminal cases by the way where lawyers and those with legal expertise argued the cases. Now the case you are describing is where you have to do the same, prove you are not laundering money or commiting fraud with an anonymous payment. But with the scenario you have put yourself in, this will be a herculean task and in all honestly not likely to win. Banks have an obligation to make sure money isn't being moved around illegally and therefore have taken the safe option and taken these safety measures. Obviously this would most likely be a civil matter where the burden of proof would be on the balance of probablities this however is a double edge sword and one that is likely to cut you since you are once again having to try and prove something that is inherently unprovable, where as all the banks have to do is say "well the chances are that this sort of stuff is used for illegal purposes due to the pattern and known methods of Monero and we have an obligation to protect ourselves and stop illegal activity" short of tracking down every transaction defeating the purpose of Monero to get your evidence your case will be horribly weak edit: While this may not contain any facts about the law or legal arguments, this comment is meant to highlight how much of an uphill battle this case would be on an evidentiary basis and what kind of hoops you would be expected to jump through if you wanted even a chance of winning permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Miserable_Mix_6253 151 points 3 days ago* Sounds like the NCA might well be involved if it’s multiple banks - following like might explain some bits https://www.saunders.co.uk/services/commercial-litigation/regulatory-law-cri... As for the £500,000 “in the red” I’m guessing that’s something to do with the way their systems work to lock your accounts out rather than that money has been taken. permalink embed save report reply [–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -91 points 3 days ago Wouldn't they have arrested me by now if that was the case? I don't think it's illegal to sell/buy crypto. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BossImpossible8858 239 points 3 days ago* Its very likely they would not have arrested you yet. They will only arrest you when they have enough evidence to charge you. In a financial case, that takes time. The bank will drop you on day one, the police might take a month or two to put it all together. It is frightening that you don't seem to have the first clue about anti money laundering law. Breaking it (which it 100% sounds like you've done) can get you up to 14 years in prison and a huge fine. Saying "well I don't know where the money came from" is precisely the problem. You are legally responsible to know where the money came from. Not understanding that you are breaking the law is not a defence and most of the time is entirely to your detriment. If you said half the things you've said in this thread at police interview, you'd pretty much have done their job for them. Go and see a solicitor, you are clearly in well over your head. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]AutoModerator[M] 10 points 3 days ago It looks like you or OP may want to find a Solicitor! There is a detailed guide in our FAQ about how to do this. I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Miserable_Mix_6253 96 points 3 days ago No - if it’s currently under investigation NCA/Police can legally bar your bank from telling you what’s going to and freeze accounts for up to two years (from memory). permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Smellytangerina 59 points 3 days ago It’s not illegal to buy/sell crypto, or even facilitate it. However if you look at Bizlato (just Google it and a lot will come up) then you can see that there are things that the NCA, in cooperation with Us law enforcement, might well want to investigate. And that’s a whole other ballgame, if you get caught up in one of those investigations then you can expect this to take a while. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]claimsmansurgeon 152 points 3 days ago How do I solve this? Can I sue the bank for illegally and needlessly suspending my accounts? It's unlikely to be illegal. Major banks don't just suspend accounts for fun. You've almost certainly tripped some sort of money laundering or fraud alert. If that's the case then they're not allowed to tell you what's happening. If they do then both the organisation and the person who tells you are opening themselves up to a criminal prosecution. Are they allowed to discriminate against me just because of the type of business I run? In a nutshell, yes. And I suspect this is where the problems lie. What sort of business do you run? permalink embed save report reply [–]Leto2AndTheCrew 96 points 3 days ago This exactly. I work at a bank and experience it from the other side. The moment these flags are on your account, nobody in the entire company will talk to you except the one division that handles it. And they won’t say much. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Stanjoly2 120 points 3 days ago Jumping on the top comment to say re Barclays OP your Barclays account is suspended under section 11 of their terms and conditions (they should have told you this when you called). They do not - in fact they must not tell you anything more than that, or risk 'tipping off'. This is an anti money laundering thing and you WILL NOT get them to budge until they've finished their investigation. What they should do however, is tell you that you can make withdrawals in cash, in branch, WITH proof of funds - e.g. wage slips/proof of benefits/etc. In terms of the £500k "to reconcile". This is just something Barclays does to make an account unuseable but still functional. The "to reconcile" thing just means Barclays removed the money themselves. At some point in the next few days you may get a phonecall from their Fraud Investigations team. They are going to ask you a bunch of questions. Be truthful and don't be belligerent. After all this there is a decent chance they will close your account. This doesn't mean they think you did anything wrong, it just means they've decided its not worth the risk to keep your business. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] 5 points 3 days ago I sell Monero payment processor software as a SaaS product. I pay all the tax I need to and declare it to HMRC every year. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]claimsmansurgeon 117 points 3 days ago It doesn't matter that you pay taxes. A lot of banks are very wary of cryptocurrencies due to the fact they can easily be used for criminal activities or money laundering. I'm almost certain this will be why you're having trouble and it wouldn't surprise me if the banks had terms and conditions saying they won't get involved in crypto. At the end of the day the bank is free to choose who they do business with and it sounds like they don't want to do business with you. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -23 points 3 days ago But how is it possible they were all suspended at the same time? I only use the HSBC account for the business, not Santander or Barclays. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Remote-Pool7787 160 points 3 days ago Because you’ll be under investigation by the same body. It’s not the banks themselves that will be investigating permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Competitive_Joke_966 50 points 3 days ago If you’re operating as a sole trader then all your assets are liable in the event of damages. If you’re doing any business with sizeable risk, you should consider setting up a private limited company. This separates you personally from the business. If the business owes a debt, you are not personally responsible. If the business bank account is under investigation, only any money you make as dividends can be personally investigated. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]claimsmansurgeon 39 points 3 days ago They might share information between the organisations. Or you might have some sort of marker against you personally permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Due_Biscotti_7378 78 points 3 days ago Putting aside the rights and wrongs of this, and accusations against you, the veracity thereof etc: Your accounts have all been suspended simultaneously. Occasionally, banks suspecting foul pay will suspend accounts themselves, as they are required to act somewhat proactively to avoid misuse of their services etc. If all have acted at once, then they've been instructed to do so by an external authority, and themselves have no choice in the matter. All you can do, at this stage, is wait, and maybe use the time in the meantime to seek legal advice from solicitors. Essentially, the validity of your business aside, someone is confident enough that there is something untoward going on that they've been able to get authority to demand this, and whilst HMRC, the NCA etc can do this, they do have to meet reasonably high criteria internally - none of which you have any right to question at this stage. If your business is legit, it's likely that one of your users hasn't been. The slightly more likely scenario is that your business setup is in some way faulty - you haven't registered with the correct regulators or something like that. This is probably the end of your business, and the best course forward is selling the product software, when this is dealt with. permalink embed save report reply [–]dave8271 223 points 3 days ago Barclays setting your accounts to -£500k is just how they suspend them during AML investigations, it means you can't pay anything out but someone (potentially relating to criminal activity) can still pay money in without being "tipped off". Barclays did this to me and my accounts were frozen for around 14 days. They subsequently closed my accounts even though I'd done nothing illegal or wrong. If this is happening to you with MULTIPLE banks, that suggests something more serious is afoot and possibly a SAR has been raised with the NCA and they've ordered the freezes while you're investigated. Also definitely worth you raising a subject access request with CIFAS to see if you've been flagged there, you can do this for free on their website. permalink embed save report reply [–]geftactics 25 points 3 days ago Do you get your original funds back in the scenario where they end up closing accounts? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]ugly_girl_doll 47 points 3 days ago Not if they think the funds in the account are the proceeds of crime. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]luffy8519 68 points 3 days ago*
From the CPS guidance on money laundering under the Proceeds of Crime Act:
Section 328 states that “a person commits an offence if he enters into or becomes concerned in an arrangement which he knows or suspects facilitates (by whatever means) the acquisition, retention, use or control of criminal property by or on behalf of another person.” So they don't have to prove that you knew your service was being used for money laundering, they only have to prove that you could have suspected it is. And given the reputation of monero, and your service is specifically for that currency, they may be confident they could make that argument. This offence includes a wide range of activity involving those who launder on behalf of others, usually at the layering and integration stages. It can catch individuals who work in financial or credit institutions, accountants or other professionals, who facilitate money laundering by or on behalf of others, in the course of their work. So it also covers transaction processors. Also: The inclusion of the wording “has reasonable grounds for knowing or suspecting” reflects the fact that individuals who carry out activities in the regulated sector are expected to exercise a higher level of diligence in handling transactions than those employed in other businesses. I don't know if it's been tested in court yet or not, but I'm pretty sure facilitating cryptocurrency payments would fall under the definition of a regulated sector under Schedule 9. So basically, your statement that you have no way of knowing what your service is used for may not be relevant if they can prove that you are operating in a regulated sector and did not take reasonable steps to prevent money laundering. If I were you, I'd be speaking to a solicitor ASAP. permalink embed save report reply [–]International-Pass22 132 points 3 days ago Sounds like your business is being used to launder money (whether you know it or not is irrelevant) The crypto you're processing is a favourite of fraudsters and drug dealers, which you must know permalink embed save report reply [–]gingeropolous -48 points 3 days ago As was/is Bitcoin permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Nicricieve 79 points 3 days ago At least with bitcoin every single miner knows every single transaction (all of them), where it came from and where it went, Monero is designed so nobody knows anything other than they've got or spent some Monero permalink embed save parent report reply [–]OfWhomIAmChief -52 points 3 days ago Sorta like cash, sounds like a great feature. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Nicricieve 39 points 3 days ago Yeah but even cash is a little bit traceable permalink embed save parent report reply [–]OfWhomIAmChief -71 points 3 days ago So a better implementation of cash? Sounds phenomenal.. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]CorgiDad -57 points 3 days ago It IS phenomenal. It is true fungible digital cash, better than the physical stuff in almost every measure. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]iain_1986 122 points 3 days ago better than the physical stuff in almost every measure. Sure it is. Said in a thread with someone being shut down for fraud for processing it... permalink embed save parent report reply [–]akl78 49 points 3 days ago OP, I can’t emphasise enough that the first thing you need to do this morning is talk to a solicitor, ideally one specialising in financial crime but failing that a gêner criminal defense one can refer you to a specialist . From what you say you are under investigation for a variety of matters, likely in part to do with providing unauthorised financial services but more importantly failure to prevent or activity engaging in money laundering- expect very serious discussions, soon, about (large) fines and prison time. permalink embed save report reply [–]potatoking1991 16 points 3 days ago NAL but former bank staff. It sounds like you've triggered some kind of anti money laundering investigation, payments to/from sanctioned countries or individuals. It was rare that we came across an account with this kind of full block but it was normally suspicion of illicit activity. permalink embed save report reply [–]Struan-Ruins 36 points 3 days ago NAL but used to do this for a living. It’s likely they suspect you of money laundering and to comply with regulations they will suspend the account, basically making it look (to you) like it doesn’t exist. They will then conduct and investigation internally and if it all adds up they will release the funds and close the account, or if there is a more substantial money laundering issue the money will be confiscated. It’s normal during this process to have very little contact from the bank and most will be in the form of a letter. Sorry this probably won’t make you feel better but just an indication of what might be going on. permalink embed save report reply [–]kurtis5561 16 points 3 days ago Are you running your "business" from personal or business banking facilities? That could have triggered a check as well. This all sounds very fishy and I'd contact a solicitor asap It's unlikely this is going to be your only issue. permalink embed save report reply [–]wildgoldchai 18 points 3 days ago Aside from general advice, this is beyond what help this sub can offer. As suggested, it really is key for you to contact a solicitor to help you deal with this matter. At this point, the frozen accounts are the least of your worries as there may be ground to prosecute you. permalink embed save report reply [–]UltimateSpuddifier 11 points 3 days ago* It sounds like you could've been flagged for potential financial crime - the reason they won't tell you anything could be to do with avoiding tipping off as per anti money laundering. You need a solicitor as soon as possible and you need to be completely honest with said solicitor. Edit: Edit to add NAL and that I went through financial crime training in my last job. permalink embed save report reply [–]jrjunkie 8 points 3 days ago The banks are calling you out for sus activities or the HMRC has applied for AFrO for all your acconts. Pending Westminster court decision, which you will usually receive a hearing notice a few days before. That court decision is on suspicion only (Crime of Proceeds Act); after decision granted you usually get 6 months to prove otherwise, and 2 years until they apply for AFO to forfeit all funds in your accounts. permalink embed save report reply [–][deleted] 3 days ago [deleted] [–]kurtis5561 6 points 3 days ago Just throwing it out there. Having done my Cert CII in insurance and understanding AML/Tipping off. I fear this thread could be seen as potentially tipping off. In a very loose term. But something we should be mindful of. permalink embed save report reply [–]Talk_Relative 4 points 3 days ago Just to let you know that all of your accounts will likely be exited and they will issue a cheque. The letters will probably on the way. Alternatively there may be a freezing order on your accounts which can be done by HMRC or a number of agencies. It will come under risk appetite but the letter will say that we can’t offer you banking services anymore. They also will put markers on to make sure you can’t bank with them in the future. The best thing you could do is open a account with a new provider so the funds can be put into the new account. permalink embed save report reply [–][deleted] 3 days ago [removed] [–]akl78 4 points 3 days ago Except doing that is generally legal. Given what he admits to doing here OP’s frozen bank accounts are not his main problem. permalink embed save report reply [–]kurtis5561 3 points 3 days ago Agreed. The content could be morally questionable and the bank can refuse business on morality grounds. I know insurers do use this clause a fair bit "you are morally uninsurable" when I worked at a large broker. Aviva would insure anyone without loading. Where as the likes of ERS took their moral duty seriously. permalink embed save parent report reply [–][deleted] 3 days ago [removed] [–][deleted] 3 days ago [removed] [–][deleted] 3 days ago [removed] [–][deleted] 3 days ago [removed] [–]Abstractteapot -44 points 3 days ago* Is it possible to get a friend to loan you money so you can speak to someone who has legal expertise in fraud and banking suspension etc.. You need someone who know about fraud investigations who can really look into it for you. permalink embed save report reply