On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 00:37:23 +0200 rysiek <rysiek@hackerspace.pl> wrote:
Too bad I simply stated a fact.
Well, actually, you haven't really stated anything. You just said "grarpamp, you're wrong",
And that, indeed, is a statement. Grarpamp said he was told pigs fly. I replied ¨what you´ve been told is wrong¨. <---statement.
without saying anything about in what manner he supposedly is wrong, and why you think he is wrong.
You are right. I didn´t provide any further comment. Just like grarpamp did =). Now, as far as I can tell, grarpamp´s statement is meant as irony. He isn´t just saying that writting letters to politicians ´works´ - he´s saying it in a particular way which underscores the message. By saying ¨Oh, I was told this works¨, he actually means ¨this definitely works and only idiots would doubt it¨
Your sarcasm is out of place and the joke is on you.
I suggest that you, too, get to the core of political theory...and practice
See, the problem is not that we disagree, the problem is that so far you haven't really said anything. grarpamp stipulated that "X" works, or so he has heard, you said "nope" and neither of you offered any support.
Again, he just basically stated a falsehood, and ´supported´ it by hearsay, If we assume he wasn´t being ironic. Either way, irony or not, he made an unsupported and mostly wrong assertion. I replied with an unsupported but correct assertion.
I can find some support for grarpamp's stipulation in my own practice and history, and while I appreciate your smirk cynicism, saying "read political theory" is simply not enough of an argument.
Except I didn´t mean it as an argument.
Not to mention, neither I nor grarpamp said anything on what is the exact mechanism of how civil participation works. For instance, I would be the first to admit that it's not a silver bullet and I'm far from the naïve, idealistic view of "politicians really listen to what we write"; rather, usually, it's a game of interests, and sometimes -- like during the ACTA crisis in EU -- public involvement can be just the straw that's needed to change something.
Ah, OK,. I can agree with that. But your position strikes me as rather different from what grarpamp said. Whereas you´re saying that some kind of public involvement *can* work, and you are correctly noting the nature of the political system (corrupt by design), grarpamp did nothing of the sort.
No, please, no need for any more concrete information, I think we can all agree that at this point it would be hard to not be convinced to what you so skilfully put forward.
bla bla bla - sign some useless petition to your masters, play the politicians´ game. Fancy that you are an oh so great activist.
And your solution instead is what exactly? "Nah, sit on yer arse, nothing's gonna change"? That sounds familiar:
I didn´t say ¨nothing´ gonna chage¨. But I´ll say it now : nothing is going to change IF you use the ´democratic tools´ given to us serfs by the ´democratic masters´. If public involvement means rioting and killing state personnel, then we are talking. If public involvment means taking money from the pentagon to create an ´anonimity network´ to spy on ¨the west´s enemies¨ , then public involvement is a bad joke. Counterproductive. Or exactly what the powers that be want.
I am really curious as to what exactly is your reason to even write such e- mails?
Well, at the very least, to correct people like grarpamps, and any other people who either support the american government in particular, or support the fuckingly stupid and criminal idea of ¨good government¨ and ¨good politicians¨ in general. I would have thought that preaching anarchy in this list would be be preaching to the choir, but I am not so sure that´s the case now.
If you know of a better solution, why not share? If there is no solution you can see, at all, why not get on with your life of bliss and not- giving-a-fsck? Surely, if civil participation can't do shit, your e-mail to this list can do even less!
Except I didn´t say that civil participation can´t do shit. I objected to the particular kind of civil participation that grarpamp suggested. Did he, for instance write ¨I was told civil DISOBEDIENCE works¨? and then I shot down his assertion? Nope...