On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 08:08:10 -0500 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote: me :
Oh, and not only they have access to the data, they also have access to the guns. So the more data they have, the more damage they can cause.
you :
"The guns" tend to backfire: Common or garden variety capital murders by police officers in the U.S. has re-ignited the Civil Rights movement,
I don't think so. There may have been some backlash caused by 'excessive' police brutality, but overall the state's grip keeps tightening. And surveillance is a key factor. Also, if they kill a bit too many people and that hurts their 'public relations' efforts, all they have to do is kill a bit less people. But it's not like the US state killers are going to surrender their guns any time soon.
The outcome of every revolution I have studied was determined before the first shot was fired. The real damage enabled by mass surveillance in State and Corporate hands includes:
Fine tuning and targeting of propaganda in near realtime to achieve maximum influence.
Early detection and proactive response to disrupt and co-opt "trending" populist and radical factions.
Automated social network mapping and behavior analysis in support of political warfare.
Yes, that's part of the damage. Given those problems (and there are more), how can you 'welcome' total surveillance?
Sorry, I'm not buying that. First, the idea that joe-six-pack is going to have access to the pentagon's satellites is sheer nonsense. And even if he somehow did he wouldn't have access to the the guns. So what good would the information be?
Not so much Joe Six Pack as Jane Citizen Journalist. Up to a point of diminishing returns, every time "the guns" are used against her, a dozen more of her appear.
One would think that exactly the opposite happens. It's basic incentives... If doing X gets people jailed, maimed or killed, then people are less likely to do X, not more likely.
As the point of diminishing returns for that function approaches, civil uprisings in response to State violence become likely.
That's nice wishful thinking but it doesn't address the original point : why should be mass surveillance be welcomed?
"Power over others" depends in large part on secrecy,
Power over others depends on guns.
The most important single item of State propaganda against populist and radical politics: Power over others depends on guns.
That's a basic fact. It is THE basic fact of 'political theory'. I could in turn retort that trying to obscure that fact is propaganda... Anyway, I should have been more precise. State power comes from guns and organization. People who go against the state are ultimately facing an efficient organization of killers. Victims of the state are outgunned and outnumbered. It should be obvious that total surveillance on the hands of such organization is very problematic.
Any challenge to State power that depends primarily on armed conflict has a single, certain outcome: Victory for the State.
That depends on particular circumstances. I wasn't primarily advocating armed conflict anyway...
Again, the outcome of a revolution is determined before the first shot is fired. Building a large base of popular support and a network of ideologically committed cadres is the key to success,
I agree.
and the principal objective of State political warfare is to prevent this from happening.
Well, yes. And intimidation and outright violence are pretty useful tools. It's not just 'propaganda' (although propaganda does play an important role)
Naive wannabe anarchists who want to "go directly to guns, do not pass the hat, do not collect 200 supporters" only provide the State with a handy means of discrediting its more /effective/ opponents.
Like I said I should have mentioned that organization is the other source of state power, even more effective than guns if you wish. So, in order to counter the state organization some sort of coordination is required...
while "powers of self determination" depend largely on free and open access to information. Information is required but information alone will get you nowhere. Or more likely it would get you in jail.
In the long run, the secrecy problem will take care of itself, because the abuses of power it enables have already killed the State: At least, in the sense that a trans-national State hard wired for self destruction, defending that program by any means necessary, is "already dead."
Well, the only thing missing to prove that claim is...evidence.
Evidence means nothing without context;
Come on Steve =) You seem to believe that the state is done for because of its 'internal contradictions' or something like that but the evidence shows exactly the opposite. State power keeps growing. And the surveillance mechanisms you said you 'welcome' play an important role in extending state power, not limiting it.
information that is not actionable is not intelligence. Step one, know your adversary. Who and what IS the State, and why is it so toxic? Some clues from the Harvard National Security Journal here:
I don't think I need the harvard security' journal to teach what the state is, but I'll take a look anyway. Thanks. Meanwhile you can provide evidence supporting this claims "the abuses of power [surveillance?] enables have already killed the State" The state is alive and kicking. "a trans-national State hard wired for self destruction, defending that program by any means necessary, is "already dead." Fact is, the most powerful nation states, 'led' by the american nation state can morph into a transnational state. Allegedly they already are morphing. And they are not 'self destructing' at all. They are increasing their power. Sorry about not sharing your optimism, but the facts don't lend themselves to any optimistic twisting.
National Security and Double Government by Michael J. Glennon
http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf
:o)
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