https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anarcho-capitalism/Archive_1 ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anarcho-capitalism/Archive_28
Contents 1 We need different articles on AnCap summarised in a meta list 2 Absence of coercion 3 Regarding Konkin 4 Justification for the statement: "The term "anarcho-capitalism" is generally seen as fraudulent and an oxymoron by anarchists." 5 Who cares about Julian Assange? We need different articles on AnCap summarised in a meta list Reading the discussions here makes it very clear, that on the one hand side people who have an AnCap view want to write the article, while at the same time people who clearly don't understand the AnCap pov, want to write the article, too. For the actually neutral reader the former appears as advertisement, while the latter appears a oppression. That brings us nowhere and the actual article is a mix far away from "neutrality", since there is simply *no* neutrality in a topic like this. Politics/Economics is not like Physics or Mathematics. I therefore think its much better to have a meta article on the topic that just contains a list of articles like AnCap from an AnCaps POV AnCap from an Anarchist PoV ... all major views (ideally) Listing articles for all major views on the topic. This is necessary because every other solution will just degrade into a battlefield of mutually exclusives views all pretending to be either neutral or superior, which of course non of them is, because we are all just humans. So for the reader its much more informative to read the topic in separated articles classified by all major views on the topic. I know if someone is fully emerged in one of many views on a theme, they can not understand that others enjoy it more to read a topic from all angles instead of reading a mess of opinion-corps from a battle-of-views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:8109:1bc0:13ac:24fc:e50d:f294:3dfb (talk) WP:POVFORK is the Wikipedia guideline against doing that. Leijurv (talk) 21:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply] We should just simply write what sources state in an attributive manner. The only point of view that needs to be used is neutral. BeŻet (talk) 21:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply] The thing is, there is no neutral POV for many themes. This is almost always true for political topics. Or in other words the only neutral POV is a set of non neutral views. Also the question "what is the AnCap POV of Ancap and what is an anarchist POV on AnCAp" are valid and on this meta level neutral questions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:8109:1bc0:13ac:24fc:e50d:f294:3dfb (talk) I don't think you'll get far by calling WP:NPOV impossible. Wikipedia has decided that that viewpoint is incorrect. NPOV is the second fundamental pillar of the site, see WP:5P2, so you'll need a better argument than just proclaiming it can't be done on this article. Leijurv (talk) 18:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply] It's always possible to achieve a neutral point of view. You simply have to describe the views that a specific group of people holds, and attribute those beliefs to them. It might be difficult to do with confusing ideologies like anarcho-capitalism, but it's not impossible. For instance, anarcho-capitalists want a society where people can make "property claims" on land, means of production and personal possessions, irregardless of occupancy and use, and then defend those claims using private defence agencies, instead of relying on a state. Is this not neutral? If it's not, why? BeŻet (talk) 21:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply] @BeZet: You wrote: "It's always possible to achieve a neutral point of view. You simply have to describe the views that a specific group of people holds, and attribute those beliefs to them." That is exactly my point, too. But then you wrote "confusing ideologies like anarcho-capitalism" which disqualifies you from writing about AnCap from the AnCap pov, as of course its not confusing to them. "confusion" is a subjective not an objective state (Logical inconsistencies can be found in every political theory). So I think what you really want is to apply force and to color AnCap according to YOUR believes. The problem is, that I think you are not fully aware of that, or you do it maliciously to fight for your view and have an aversion against AnCap. This is legit, but makes it impossible for you to REALLY look on AnCap from THEIR pov, so you can not write that part! The same btw, holds true for AnCap advocates when it comes to criticism on AnCap. Much of what they write about other theories is subject to the same felony. This is a general problem, which highlights the fundamental difference between scientific (objective truth) minded people and political minded people. Unfortunately, in the end, this doesn't give us the neutrality, a non-emotionally involved reader expects from a "neutral" article. But articles become battle-fields of a fight we might call "the superiority of a view", or enforced subjectivity. So my basic critique is that there are articles like "Vector space" that have pure external/objective definitions/truth and articles about terms like "Fairness" or in this case "AnCap" that don't have a single objective truth, but a set of subjectives views. Fairness is the best example as left-wing and right-wing minded people more or less completely disagree about the meaning of this term. And deciding that one view is superior over other is the core problem, since it is objectively impossible. You can do it subjectively but not objectively. And I think that is what politically opinionated people don't understand. Now to write about those categories, authors must have the ability to change views in their head objectively, which means they must be able to write from that particular angle (and not color it from their own angle). Everything else is a distortion. And personally I think this distortion is best summarised as a battle-of-views or the desire to force a subjective view to be an objective truth. Which it can never be. But in an attempt to do it, it degrades the articles quality for the uninvolved readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:8109:1bc0:13ac:24fc:e50d:f294:3dfb (talk) Like I said, we shouldn't write about anarcho-capitalism from the point of anarcho-capitalists (because it will be confusing) or from "my" or other people's point of view (because it will also be confusing and also violate neutrality). All we have to do is state what the sources are saying. The main issue here is that a lot of the sources used in the article are primary sources; for instance, we use a lot of works by Rothbard himself, while what is preferred is to use secondary sources. The problem here is more pronounced because anarcho-capitalists have a large number of their own interpretations of commonly used terminology. If you can help with providing high quality secondary sources discussing anarcho-capitalism, then that would be great and would help to improve the article. All articles need to be written from a neutral point of view, not from somebody's point of view. If you see some neutrality problems in the article, highlight them here so we can see how to improve the situation. BeŻet (talk) 12:49, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply] See WP:DTTC. You're worrying about how best to approach something that shouldn't be done at all (writing from the pov of an ancap, or really anyone). Leijurv (talk) 17:24, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply] Absence of coercion @PBZE: Hi, just wanted to discuss the phrase "capitalism is absence of coercion". While it might make sense to ancaps, I just think it's a strange sentence on its own. Capitalism is an economic system, so what ancaps are saying here is that they believe there is no coercion under capitalism, and not that capitalism is the synonym of "absence of coercion". I think without changing it, it will simply be confusing to readers who are not ancaps. BeŻet (talk) 20:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply] BeŻet What anarcho-capitalists believe is that without coercion, a free-market capitalist system will automatically form as the natural form of organization, and that anything deviating from it requires coercion to achieve, which is what I was trying to communicate. I also stole the phrasing from the article Anarchism and capitalism. It makes sense to me, and I’m not an ancap, although it’s possible that I’m more familiar with the ideology than most. PBZE (talk) 21:03, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply] @PBZE: Thanks. I understand their position, but nonetheless I still think it should be rephrased: either to "capitalism is the result of absence of coercion", or to "there is no coercion under capitalism". BeŻet (talk) 10:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply] @BeŻet: Ok. That’s fine to me. PBZE (talk) 15:32, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply] @PBZE: Do you have a preference between the two? BeŻet (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply] @BeŻet: That’s a tough choice. The first one is a little more wordy but gets the main point across explicitly, and the second one sounds better but only implies the point. I guess I’d slightly prefer the second one. PBZE (talk) 16:51, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply] @BeŻet: After doing some more thinking, I realize I may have missed a subtle detail in my earlier description. Anarcho-capitalists believe in the non-aggression principle, which defines the concept of coercion as any interference with a person or their property (including the capitalist conception of private property), unless used to defend those things. So what they claim is that anything deviating from capitalism is coercion by definition, and that any action, aggressive or not, that is used to defend capitalism, is not coercive by definition. So under anarcho-capitalist ideology, "absence of coercion" and "capitalism" is literally the same thing, and my original edit to the article is accurate. That ancaps use a distinct definition of "coercion" is a subtle point, but may be important nonetheless, since things that would commonly be considered coercion, such as denying access to food or shelter, would not be under the ancap definition. I still think it's possible that the sentence "capitalism is the absence of coercion" may still be confusing to non-ancaps and therefore not appropriate regardless, but what are your thoughts on this? PBZE (talk) 23:47, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply] @PBZE: Personally, I think that saying "there is no coercion under capitalism" covers this, but we could perhaps expand it so it says two things: "there is no coercion under capitalism, and that capitalism results in a lack of coercion". BeŻet (talk) 14:19, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply] Yes, the term "anarcho-capitalism" is badly named, but that's not a critique of the concept itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:844:4302:40A0:0:0:0:E853 (talk) 02:23, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply] Well there needs to be made a distinction between capitalism as it exists today, and the kind of capitalism that ancaps advocate for. The kind that exists today is quite different from the kind that ancaps advocate for. In its present form, there is much coersion within the capitalist system. However ancaps believe that once an anarchist position is achieved, the coercive "socialist" aspects of capitalism would be removed from it, leaving true non non coersive capitalism in its place that would be totally lacking in coersion and would be built on entirely voluntary relations. Gd123lbp (talk) 10:47, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply] The problem is that this is all quite confusing to a regular reader. If you talk about e.g. "socialist aspects of capitalism" etc., this may make sense to an ancap, but not to a regular person. It would be good to get some quality secondary sources talking about this in order to include this in the article, as it will use less ideological language. BeŻet (talk) 10:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply] Regarding Konkin Within Anarcho-Capitalist Communities Agorism is widely considered a Sect of the ideology such as Hoppeanism or Voluntaryism with the differences between the ideologies being miniscule, Further more i'd like to say that if were allowed to reference Hans-Hermann Hoppe or Larken Rose we should be allowed to reference Konkin, i'd also like to make the case that Agorism should be grouped by that of the 12 Agorist Wikipedians about 8 of them also have Anarcho-Capitalist Userboxes rather than leaving the Userbox alone or with a Anarcho-Communist Userbox SirColdcrown (talk) 16:18, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply] Konkin never considered himself to be an anarchocapitalist; in fact, he said that while similar on paper, there are some key differences between the ideologies. Meanwhile, if I'm not mistaken, Hoppe self-identifies as an ancap, and often talked about what his ideal ancap society would look like. People are free to identify as whatever they want: if someone identifies both as an ancap and agorist, so be it. However userboxes shouldn't dictate what is written in articles, only reliable sources. BeŻet (talk) 12:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply] I would like to point out that for the most part Anarcho-Capitalism is a very Community Developed ideology, almost every Structure beyond the NAP and the Name has been widely peer developed, with online or in-person fourms coming up with most "Solutions" and "Structures" while people like Rothbard merely gave reasons as to why the state needed to be abolished and what to do from there, this is why despite people like Hoppe self identifying as AnCap him and Konkin not identifying as AnCap but writing several nutorious AnCap concepts, Hoppe and his followers are shunned from most AnCap communities while Konkin's Followers are welcomed with open arms. a Rookie editor of This Emporium of Knowledge, SirColdcrown (talk) 14:15, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply] Almost every political ideology is "community developed" in the same way. We however need reliable sources in order to include information in the article. If we want to include anything regarding Konkin, we require a reliable source saying that ancaps agree with some points that Konkin has expressed - we can't just include Konkin's opinions without context, since he wasn't an ancap. Internet forums and blogs are also not quality sources, so we would need, say, a peer-reviewed analysis of the viewpoints expressed on such forums. BeŻet (talk) 14:34, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply] Justification for the statement: "The term "anarcho-capitalism" is generally seen as fraudulent and an oxymoron by anarchists." I think this statement is under-justified. A list of anarchists who might support this claim does not justify the (weasel word) statement that anarcho-capitalism is "generally seen" a certain way "by anarchists." I believe this sentence should be deleted. "Fraudulent" is probably not the right word. This is a minor problem, though, in comparison with the rest of the article, which is shockingly bad. Tewdar 22:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply] Who cares about Julian Assange? Hi! In the context of this “ancap” article, I simply don't see why WikiLeaker journalist Julian Assange is cited for his opinion about the political ideology. It doesn't make sense. He might have authority. However, what he is cited for lacks substance and actual arguments. Merely opinions. I suggest deletion but that's just me. ToniTurunen (talk) 05:46, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply] Agreed, Assange's opinions are totally UNDUE, so I erased it. 😁👍 Tewdar 08:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]