Asking to help explore the possibility and look for evidence that could either prove it or disprove it, more like. On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn@gmail.com> wrote:
Mike,
Nice troll,
My point is that specifically the value of this 'navel gazing' or hypothetical conversation is very limited. Since you have not proven it, what data do you ask us to look at? This entire conversation asks us to suspend our disbelief in order to discuss the possible motivations of an unnamed attacker who faked a GCHQ slide.
From the beginning I've maintained it was asinine and pointless, at worst you're riling up the neophytes who don't understand what's going on.
-Travis
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Michael Best <themikebest@gmail.com> wrote:
I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said several times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it in the mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
*Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I know it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a dialogue that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and not confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a strawman.
Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly so" lol
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn@gmail.com> wrote:
Mike, You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a dollar bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant navel gazing exercise.
These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
-Travis
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest@gmail.com> wrote:
I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap to defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to look at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley@misanthropia.org> wrote:
On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest@gmail.com> wrote:
I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be
more likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having leaked documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely candidate.
Yes, you did list a number of possibilities. It sometimes seems as though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before replying to them.
Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their site for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia, no?
Agreed. It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome, possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the time this all began.
-S
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski < guninski@guninski.com> wrote:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374 > > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group > > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online > communities.[6] > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote: > > > > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get > > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_. > > > > > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it > follows > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier. > > > > > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake. > > > Is this plausible? > > > > > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time. > > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)? > > > > > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to. > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski < guninski@guninski.com> > > wrote: > > > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_. > > > > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake. > > > > > > Is this plausible? > > > > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)? > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote: > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the > materials > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to > > > remember > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this > one as > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other > documents > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them, > > > contrary > > > > to their apparent belief. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski < > guninski@guninski.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote: > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that > > > require > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is > set, > > > > > because > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion, > > > where a > > > > > lot > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation > or > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to > > > gain at > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there > would be > > > few > > > > > > people to believe it, > > > > > > > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument - > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has > > > accused > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he > did > > > not > > > > > > provide*. > > > > > > > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit > Snowden. > > > > > > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide? > > > > > > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed. > > > > > > > > >
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