On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 02:10:48 -0500 Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net> wrote:
On 12/10/2017 01:06 PM, g2s wrote:
-------- Original message -------- From: Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com> Date: 12/10/17 8:02 AM (GMT-08:00) To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org Subject: Re: What is consensus?
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 07:42:02AM -0800, g2s wrote:
Consensus is defined as agreement. Voting is one process to (hopefully) reach it. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus
lol "If voting could change things, it would have been outlawed." -- anon
Just check what fucks were elected by voting all over the world.
I was NOT making an argument that voting works to change anything systematic in media driven indoctrinated societies. I was simply defining the word... further consensus Agreement doesn't always work either, but if the "block" is honored it slows down the process and has potential for correcting mistakes that may be harder to repair after the fact.
Re "What is consensus?" Mirmir replied "Ask any Quaker."
That's me, and I am now required (dammit) to give a straight answer because I'm a Friend in good standing, a "made guy" so to speak.
I wanted to comment on the quaker thing as well. The word consensus is derived from and requires consent. Theocracy or religious fraud, especially of the jew-kkkristian variety has fuck to do with consent. By definition fraud destroys consent. By the way, jew-kristian theocracy is the very opposite of anarchism and cypherpunkry since its anti-philosophical root is an all knowing all seeing tyrant.
The quote from Georgi above seems to be part of the original thread so at least there's a context to answer the question in.
Consensus means agreement. And that means a messy, organic, all too human hairball at work. The Quakers are often accused of governing themselves by consensus, and have been so accused for something approaching 400 years. Here's how we do it, more or less.
Disclaimer:
The following is not the "rules of RSOF engagement," so much as my own observation of Friends' process, developed from 20+ years of full participation, including lots of committee work for my monthly and yearly Meetings. I do push the Gospel of Truth in the manner of Friends, promoting the religious practice that makes Friends "a peculiar people" - which, back in the day, meant a "distinct" group.
In practical application among Friends, consensus arises from local communities, small enough that everyone is at most at one remove in acquaintance from one another. Friends participate, first and foremost, in an agreement among themselves to work together in compliance with a specified process for decision making.
When geographically dispersed Friends participate in regionally sponsored projects (and we do, non-stop), representatives selected by participating Meetings form committees; these committees execute the same consensus procedure to arrive at their recommendations to the regional body as a whole. No decision on matters of faith and practice or Meeting business becomes "binding" without advice and approval from Meeting as a whole.
Quakers don't do "consensus" as that word is understood in a secular context. We make decisions based on "a sense of the Meeting," and we call the process for that discernment. Any Friend who has had Quakerism 101 understands that we are discerning the will of God, most properly so in silence broken only by vocal ministry as so led; having found that, the next step is to seek "way forward" toward compliance with our orders from the head office.
Friends do present a peculiar position on God, this time in the modern sense of the word peculiar. Weighty Friends (made gals and guise who may speak rarely but do command attention, for reasons) have long agreed: Nobody can define or describe God. But whatever that word stands for, we know it when we see it in motion, and accept that once set on a path by that force, one must do /something/ regardless of personal preferences or interests.
"Friends don't vote," but we do discriminate: Membership in our Society is accomplished by a consensus between oneself and the local Meeting's membership at large - there's a formal process for that, and new or transferred members are recorded or "minuted" as such by the clerk of their Meeting. Roles such as Clerk of Meeting, Trustees, etc. will nearly always be filled by members of Meeting, as will committees that engage in pastoral counseling where confidentiality issues may arise. All other committees are wide open for any member or attender to sit in on.
Friends normally meet weekly for meeting for worship, and monthly for "meeting for worship with a concern for business," which is open to all. Committees report to the latter meeting on a monthly basis, but otherwise work where and as expedient.
It can take Friends half of forever to get anything outside of established routine done, but what we do sticks. Conversely, when a situation requires it Friends form and operate voluntary organizations in near real-time. Friends' Service Committees have crossed active battlefields in caravans carrying relief supplies to besieged civilians, literally using their religious authority and single-minded commitment as their only shield and weapon.
Friends enjoy a certain notoriety for tolerance, but not the usual kind where someone is "tolerated" for the sake of appearance or process compliance: Every "sinner" is welcome, and as living proof one could point to several committed atheists who rate as 'weighty' Friends in the community.
Disclaimer II: The above is presented as a resource for anarchists and other loose ends looking to mine historical and (in effect) covert examples of social organization for background, and any components that can be usefully recycled. No warranty of fitness for use for any purpose is expressed or implied.
Especially beware, the real life Religious Society of Friends lives up to the bare bones description above "on a good day". In addition to routine errors routinely corrected, on occasion a Meeting or responsible Committee may go off-track and require correction from the floor, so to speak. I am not supposed to know that a Meeting may occasionally "lose its minutes" covering periods of time when scandalous events were afoot, and neither are you.
We get a lot of lookey-loos, typically people who see the RSOF as an elite family-friendly social club for liberal academics and professionals. Some of them even settle in and convert, to the full extent they are so led.
BTW, Quakers are "Friends of Jesus" [John 15:14-16] first and foremost, and friends of each other by virtue of that relationship.
Thus ends St. Erroneous' Epistle to the Cypherpunks.
I leave you with this prophesy: Many things shall come to pass, yea verily shall many things come to pass.
:o)