New threat, this is offtopic.

So I think people took my meaning wrong. I meant to say "don't hate people for behaving as the system rewards them to do", and then to ask "what kind of system would make people behave as you like?".

2015-10-27 21:47 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley@misanthropia.org>:

Suggestions, in no particular order:

I feel like you are ignoring the cost of time, underestimating people's expenses, and arbitrarily hate cars and meat.

- Don't buy the newest iCrap (or car or tv) every time they shit one out: you *don't * need it, I assure you.

For most "the latest iCrap" is not a significant expense. 200 euro's a month or so (phone + laptop) is quite doable, especially given how much time one spends with iCrap devices. Resale value is nonzero, too, so really, quite doable.

- Learn how to fix and repurpose things. Take good care of your things so they last longer.

I know how to fix/repurpose most things. Actually fixing things often doesn't compare favorably with just buying a new one - time spent at 10 euro's per hour makes most repairs very borderline effective.

- Freecycle, trade with others

Trade what? I do secondhand shopping and selling when appropriate, that should be good too.

- Shop at second hand and thrift stores for most things.

Do, for the things it makes sense for. It takes more effort as you frequently will not find what you were looking for. (protip: great for amplifiers and speakers)

- Think before you buy. Try to support true fair trade/fair wages and buy locally whenever possible. Hint: it's usually possible.

Fair trade/wages are determined by the capitalist market, not by me. I'm simply not that arrogant. If you don't believe in markts you have more work cut out for you than just buying fair trade branded products. (Protip: fairtrade is just another way for things to be shiny)

Buying local is even more meaningless. If transport costs do not outweigh production costs, go ferry it in from Australia, China, Chile, etc. You're making the efficient choice by doing so.

- Use a bike or public transit whenever possible. Get rid of your car and use things like Zip Car for the few occasions when you need to use a personal vehicle. Share a car with friends if you truly need it for kids/work/whatever.

Public transport or Zip Carring add to stress, cost more time, are not reliable and are not portable storage. I'd like an electric car, but the initial purchase is so high it skews things like tax and insurance.

Idk why you hate cars so much. They're pretty damn useful, give you lots of freedom and independence, and just help you get around so much better than public transport. Their prices also compare with other forms of transport.

(bikes are slow and only really work in villages or compatible cities)

- Prepare your own damn food. Go vegan.

Preparing my own food is a waste of time, other people are cheaper, mass production is cheaper, I'm very mediocre at cooking.

Going vegan is an interesting choice, all evidence points to it being much much much better for the environment, etc. but meat is still quite affordable and quite complimentary to meals. If it truly were 100x easier on the environment I'd expect to see that in the price, and I hardly do. I assume there's some sort of sponsoring going on, and until it stops I'll keep on eating delicious and healthy meat.

(Hey, you asked for suggestions: these are mine.)

Thanks for playing :)

Razer mentioned a TV, I don't own one. I have a sizeable monitor. Much prettier than most TVs. I might get a projector someday, it's fun to watch movies together like that.

Razer also fuzzes about collectivism vs individualism. They used to have collectivism in many nations. They all lost. I think a society design that involves individual incentives (the best of capitalism; advanced finance, legal persons, markets, competition), global optimization (the best of communism; managed competition, fine tuned production, >designed markets<), and collective ambition (the best of government/academia; being able to strife together and make deep, long term investments) would be ideal.